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PRC 1992 04 28 ~CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING APRIL 28, 1992 Acting Chairman Andrews called the meeting to order at 7:32 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Andrews, Fred Berg, Randy Erickson, Dave Koubsky and Jan Lash MEMBERS ABSENT: Larry Schroers and Wendy Pemrick STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Coordinator; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor; 'and Dawne Lemme, Program Specialist APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Erickson moved, Koubsky seconded to approve the ~inutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated March 24, 1992 as pr~sented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. INTRODUCTION OF PROGRAM SPECIALIST. DAWNE LEMME. Hoffman: bhairman Andrews and Commissioners, I would like to introduce. Dawne Lemme who's with us here this evening. Dawne will be filling the position of the program specialist for about 4 months this summer. She comes our way from most recently Little Falls and prior to that worked at Hopkins-Minnetonka and down in Illinois at Buffalo Grove Park and Recreation. Has considerable experience in recreation programming and has jumped right in and is doing a fine job for us in the past 2 weeks. So ~join me in welcoming Dawne. CATHCART PARK ISSUE DISCUSSION. Hoffman: The Cathcart Park issue again is at a discussion level this evening amongst the Park and Recreation Commissioners. You have the information, facts and figures if you will presented to you this evening. There's essentially three main players that will be working on this coordination of efforts at Cathcart Park. That being the City of Shorewood, Minnewashta Congregational Church and the City of Chanhassen. I believe you all know as the story stands today but the park is located within the corporate boundaries of the city of Chanhassen. It's approximately 5 acres in size. The property is currently owned by the City of Shorewood. The church resides just north of the park across West 67th Street which is in, their property is in the city of Shorewood. The initiative to this discussion or the current situation basically percipitated from the city of Shorewood's desire to take a look at park improvement bondings similar to the city of Chanhassen is currently doing~ They addressed the issue is, they came up with a shopping list of . $160,000.00 and they said, they asked the question to themselves, the Park Commission, should we be spending this $160,000.00 in a park which the city of Shorewood operates but it's in the city of Chanhassen. New City Adminstrator James Hermes said, potentially not. He initiated this exploration with the city of Chanhassen asking the question if we could potentially pick up some responsibility for maintaining Cathcart Park as a' recreational facility. It certainly does serve both residents of the city of Chanhassen and the city of Shorewood. Where the city of Chanhassen has ~stated it's position that it certainly does want to see the parks facilities remain, we just don't want to say we don't really care what happens to the park and it's Shorewood and the Church settle the issue and Park anq Rec Commission Meeting April 28, 1992 - Page 2 .....", say the_park remains, that's fine. That region of the city is somewhat sensitive to park needs and all of those north of Highway 7 it certainly does fill some of the park needs for that area of the community and we would like to see that remain. There's some larger questions in what responsibility the church can take on as part of this. If they were'to rebuild and move and have to replace what they've displaced by moving that church, how much financial commitment are they willing to make? That type of thing. So again we're at the initial point of conversation. I'm interested in hearing the viewpoint of the commissioners and we'll continue to work forward and hashing out an eventual agreement to the Cathcart Park issue. Andrews: Is there anyone from the audience here concerning this item on the agenda that would like to speak about that issue? There is not. Okay. Hoffman: Th.y're here .to listen. They might react. If you essentially just want to identify yourselves so they know. Dave Hempel: Dave and Jill Hempel~ We live over on...by Lake Minnewashta and... Hoffman: Commissioners also know, Richard Wing, Council member is present. He has an interest in this issue as well. Koubsky: I guess was wondering Todd, you drafted the letter to Jim Hermes, City of Shorewood and asked him to respond to this last letter where we had made a commitment to possibly split the responsibilities maintaining the park. Have you received a response to the three items you outlined? ...,;i Hoffman: City Administrator Hermes talked to Jerry today and perhaps he can fill you in on what that conversation was. Ruegemer: Basically the conversation this afternoon was not as extensive as is outlined the specifics in;the report. Jim had just briefly mentioned that the City of Shorewood is presently due to go back,now and talk to the church and see really what position they really want to take on this issue. They're...takes place. Other than I think Shorewood... After that. discussion and conversations take place...city officials from Chanhassen. Hoffman: Certainly everybody is just kind of orbiting around dead center. Nobody's going to hop ~n it right now. Erickson: How much land does the church sit on right now? Dave Hempel: that with me. I don't know the exact figures because I didn't bring any of About 3.8 acres. Erickson: I was over in that neighborhood this afternoon and I was going to say, it seemed like about 3 acres. Something like that. Dave Hempel: The lot line goes back... I think the last figures were about 3.8 or 3.6. .....", Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~April 28, 1992 - Page 3 Andrews: I'd just like to state that I feel there is a need for a park there and it certainly serves the interest of both Chanhassen and Shorewood. I would hate to be in a position where because of neither city wanting to accept full responsibility, we end up with no park. I think it would ,make a lot of sense to have a joint operation there. I think tha~'d be a benefit to both cities to reduce the cost and provide a definite benefit to both of our cities. And also because really for Chanhassen, it's such a small area for our city, it would be difficult to justify a full park based on just only the Chanhassen residents being served so I think that would be helpful to look at it that way. Any other discussion? Do you need any direction from us tonight as to our intent or what we can do to help this along? Hoffman: If you wish to present staff with a position, you certainly can. Otherwise we'll continue to negotiate through the issues... Andrews: I guess I feel personally it's a bit premature to state a firm position because We don't know what the Church is looking for as far as our land goes. It sounds as though one of the possibilities was a potential reversal of position of the church going to the south and the park going to the north. I think until we have a better idea of what the likely direction is, it'd be hard for us to get any idea of what the potential costs and who's going to pay and who can pay. So I don't know. ~Hoffman: It certainly would be our position if the two cities were to give the church the option to take the new site, that the church would be responsible for replacing the displaced facilities. We certainly have an interest in cooperating ~ith the church because that's how the park was established in the first place and ~hat position's been stated. But again, there are additional details if the church is in a building fund drive and to tack on extra costs for building ballfields and other facilities that have been displaced may not be feasible. So some of those issues will be smoked out here in the near future. Andrews: Why don't we wait until we hear further from the church then. Do we need a motion for that? Okay. I think that's, appropriate and then I'm sure we'll hear this again probably fairly soon I would think. At that point we should probably take firmer action as to what exactly we'd like to see happen. Hoffman: The potential as it was presented this evening was if the church moved to the park property, then the park would be split. There would be park activities in the south which Chanhassen would be responsible for and park activities to the north which Shorewood would be responsible for. The question becomes which park facilities. Where does the ballfield end up? The higher maintenance intensive items being the basketball, the tarred surfaces are currently in the south and are in need of repair. Is the City of Chanhassen responsible to take those on right from the beginning? The hockey rink was donated by a Shorewood organization. Are they going to want to see that operated by the City of Chanhassen? Do we want to take on ~the responsibility for flooding and staffing that warming house? Those type of issues. Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 28, 1992 - Page 4 ....,., Andrews: Well maybe we could take a stronger position then about our preference for a joint operation instead of a split operation like you're talking about. Would that be helpful at least to state that preference? Hoffman: Over joint? Andrews: Well, joint property. I guess what I'm saying, if you don't want a hockey rink on one side of the street like you said and a ballfield on the other and we're both sending maintenance crews and repair crews and so forth when we could accomplish the same thing for joint basis probably for less money and have a better facility probably too. Hoffman: You need to clarify that because there begins some real logistical questions of who is, if it's a joint maintenance, joint operation, who is administering the park? Who's financing it? How does the budget process work? Does this go right down to the grass cutting and garbage collection and all of that items. When we speak of joint, we could do a joint powers agreement. We could simply pay the City of Shorewood a blank lump sum of money per year for their services in maintaining the park. They could do the same to the City of Chanhassen. There's a variety of arrangements which could be made but coming up with the best one is what we're searching for. Andrews: Let's wait until we hear where the church would prefer to locate. I guess that's probably the most important thing. Eric~son: I'd like to find out if the church would like that whole 4.8 acres park and then give us the 3.8 acres across the street or whatever. I think we all certainly want to work with them. The church has been good to us, we should be good to the church and that neighborhood does need a park. ..."", Berg: Is it going to be up to the church or where does the City of Shorewood come into this in terms of your relocating? Are they saying you can go where you want? Dave Hempel: Not necessarily. And I can't really speak officially for the church right now. I'm ,peaking for myself as a long time member who's very involved in this whole situation... I've been doing some of my own platting of cut outs and so forth and so on as to what facilities go where. And realistically, the church would like to relocate on the east boundary along Church Road with the parking mostly in that area...facilities that are on the property other than the ballfield. Based on my drawings, the ball diamond isa very difficult thing to fit in there because of the fan shaped. One corner will fit into the required parking. The number of slots required for this big of church. You get into the down s16pe on the southwest corner which would more than likely require some grading, some fill to bring it up to a level field area for a ballpark; It fits beautifully in there on a flat drawing but it would be rather expensive I would think~ Basically what the ballpark moving to the north side of West 62nd on the present church site, it just barely fits because of the shape of it. The triangular shape of the property. Fan shap~ of the ball diamond. It does fit and there's some interest in moving that up between.. .church because of the fact that we initially did provide that ....." park area with, we put up swings and play areas and what was... But most Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~April 28, 1992 - Page 5 of the items that are there except for the ballpark, would fit on the property very nicely based on what I have drawn. ...negotiating process with you people and with the City Council and shorewood...whether the ballpark will move...swap properties with Shorewood and then I'm certain the church would want to maintain those facilities there because we put a lot of them there other than...ourselves and since the properties do fit there, what we can negotiate for as far as transfer of title and half of this lot was done with Shorewood. Transfer title or 100 year leases or whatever you want to talk about on the property to keep those facilities as they are there. It's also standing...discussed it with any of the Board members of the church yet so we don't have a real firm position on that. Nobody does right now. I know what my position is. I'd like to just see a swap for a swap. But that's not going to work because there's other considerations...Who's willing to give up what and who's willing to take on what. Andrews: Thanks. Koubsky: Todd, with the covenant that this remain as a park and I don't know if it was gifted or sold to the city of Shorewood. I assume they own the property? Hoffman: Yes. ~Koubsky: I hate to bring lawyers in this early in the game but are there any legal issues that would be a concern or would direct? Hoffman: Nothing at this point. No, I don't think it's going to be, as long as it's an amenable solution, there will be no, other than the paper filing and that type of thing, there would be no need for legal counsel. Koubsky: I guess I would hate to see the loss of a ballpark or ballfield. Dave Hempel: Well everybody's d6ing everything to keep it. Koubsky: No, I understand that. Dave Hempel: The only thing it will be moved across the road maybe. Andrews: Any other discussion? Alright, let's close item 3 and move onto item 4. UPDATE OF PARK CONSTRUCTION PROJECTS. Hoffman: Chairman Andrews, item 4 again is an update of our park construction projects. We have many projects currently underway. Some of them which were held over the winter and one predominantly being the Lake Ann shelter which is just being initiated. The report speaks for itself. I will not delve into any of the items unless you have specific comments or questions. I did drive by Lake Ann on my way in this evening and they just ~had finished digging the excavating for the foundation for the shelter. So it's a pretty impressive hole in the earth that they have out there currently. Other than that, phone service is coming right along. And then Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 28, 1992 - Page 6 ~ again the rema~n~ng projects will be closed up probably within 2 to 3 weeks. Any questions on any particular projects or comments? Andrews: How close is Lake Susan to completely done? Hoffman: Real close. It's been somewhat of a'drag on process since that one was picked up out there but they just need to finish up the blacktop and do some site leveling and finish restoration and seeding and they're done and out; Then the park is bought and paid for and up and running. Andrews: Have we had any more problems with vandalism down there that you know of? Hoffman: Not to date this year, no. Erickson: It's been pretty 'clean. Hoffman: Yeah, other than the dog... Berg: This is not directly related to this item but how are we doing with handicapped accessibility? Are we doing anything with that this summer? Hoff~an: 80-A? As part of the Community Develop~ent Block Grant money which is available to the city, I applied with Planning Dirctor, Paul Krauss for' $8,000.00 to update our two play structures at Lake Ann Park. So we bring in probably full surfacing at Lake Ann due to the popularity of ~ the park and the amount of use which it receives. We've been keeping very close in tune with it. Anytime, the commission should be aware now, anytime that you go ahead and schedule for a Phase II, you might as well tag on about $6,000.00 for compliance to 80-A. $6,000.00 or better. That doesn't begin to buy any of the new equipment for the Phase II. That buys you the hard court surface and the transfer points or the ramp decks to comply with 80-A. Anytime you build a new structure or alter an existing structure, we have to bring it up to compliance with80-A. The Park department does not operate a great many buildings but we certainly need to take a look at door width~ and that type of situations at'the warming house. The new shelter building was designed and then finally the contract was awarded over that time when 80-A came into effect so there was minor modifications back to door handles and pressure on water faucets and insulation for'the pipes underneath. There's quite a few regulations you need to comply with so that's been brought up to standards. So we need to continue to look at it. Berg: So the new shelter's going to comply with the 80-A? Hoffman: Yes. Right down'to the last period. Andrews: The tentative completion date for the new park pavillion? Hoffman: August 28th. Erickson: We're having a meeting out there aren't we in August? ~ Lash: Yeah. Park and Rec Commission Meeting "..... Apr i 1. 28, 1992 -: Page 7 Hoffman: August 28th will be substantial completion. You'll see the front half of the building be cleaned up and sodded and restored by June 15th for the opening of the beach. It should move right along. Andrews: When would you expect that we'd actually purchase all of the paraphenalia that we put on the budget? Will that wait until next year then? Hoffman: We'd put it off until 1993. No need to buy it. What's the official beach closing date? August. Lash: Usually a week before Labor Day. Hoffman: So the week we get the shelter done, we close the beach. Sol would not even, the building will be ready to operate but I would presume that given the typical nature of projects, it will probably be a couple weeks, a month until all of the bugs get worked out of the project and there's no ready to get it up and running ,and to buy all new refrigerators and equipment that's necessary until the spring. Andrews: I know at Lake phalen they run quite a successful cross country operation in the winter. Something to think about in the future. Hoffman: There's been talk about cross country at Lake Ann but with the ,..... proximity of Mi nnewashta, the Arboretum and Carver Par k, we're neighbors to some of the nicest cross country skiing. It would mean a capital purchase of a groomer and track machine and those type of things so. Andrews: Never mind. Hoffman: But it's been talked about. Koubsky: Are those funds for those items to be purchased next year, those are currently available? Or allocated? Hoffman: Sure. They're currently budgeted but there's certainly no need to. Lash: We'll roll them over. Hoffman: Yeah. We'll just re-budget for them next year. But the building itself came in somewhat higher than we anticipated" I foresee a fairly good year in revenues and if we can keep our expenditures somewhat at a reduced rate this year, then we'll be in a better fiancial situation for our future. . Andrews: Any other discussion of item 4? . None. PARK AND TRAIL FEE REVENUES. Hoffman: Item 5 I briefly touched on in that park and trail fee revenues I""""'are looking pretty good. To date ,in 1992 the figure is $26,611.,00 for the first quarter ending at, the end of March. Since that time we've collected the Market Square project which came up to be just under $30,000.00 so Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 28, 1992'- Page 8 ....,,' we've doubl~d our revenues for the year just wit~ that one collection of fees for Market Square. I was always anticipating that one. Finally it came in. Ho~sing starts look promising. There are some other commercial/ industrial type of constructin project~ out there on the horizon th~t we potentially could be looking for some fairly good sized revenue figures. There's an interesting one which it may get. down to the level of the Park and Recreation Commission in that a church is seeking all their necessary documentation and permits foi construction of the Wests ide Baptist Church out on TH 41. You've seen the site just south of the pond and the sign there. They're planning to construct approximately a 10 acre site. Park fees for churches are based on commercial and that would be more than Market Square so you're facing a $30,000.00 plus park and trail fee assessment. There's good reason why it's based on land. You need to let the fee be based upon acreage simply because at some point in the future that acreage can be sold off and to back up just ~ bit. We had talked about what can we do to get around this situation. If you charge per pew. Say there's 300 pews in there and yo~ charge per pew. Then you've allowed that 10 acre parcel, the entire 10 acre parcel to be bought up if you would or paid off in park fees and then 10 years from now they could sell half of it and put houses on it and we'd have no recoUrse to go back and collect those additional park fees. So there's good reason why it's assessed against the land. 'What I would foresee then will happen is they'll plat their building and their parking lots on a 2 acre parcel and be charged commercial park and trail fees and then the remaining portion will be as an outlot for their church. So they're always, park and trail fees work real well but there's always the next instance around the corner where they ....",I' appear to be out of line. This is one of those but we'll continue to work with the representatives of the church. Andrews: Let's move on to item 6. OPEN GYM UPDATE. RECREATION SUPERVISOR. Ruegemer: Currently this past winter the Chanhassen Park and Rec did offer three separate open gyms. One was for the adults. That's all on Monday nights over at the elementar~ school. One was held on Friday nights for kids ages 9th grade through 12th grade and the other was held on Saturday afternoons for kids that were currently in 2nd grade through the 8th grade. All these open gyms started in September and ran through the end of March with the exception of the adult open gym that ended... All the open gyms were housed in the elementary school and all did have fairly decent attendance through out the year...residents of Chanhassen with t~eir peers worked out real nice... Do you have any comments or questions regarding open gym? Koubsky: What do the fees go towards? There's only about 10 or it looks like 8 to 15 people coming here. Ruegemer: The fees that are collected just go into a general revenue. Hoffman: It pays for the attendant. Lash: That was my question. Is there someone there and do the fees end ,up --' offsetting the cost of hiring someone to sit there? Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~April 28, 1992 - Page 9 Hoffman: Correct. Ruegemer: Any other questions or comments? Okay, we'll just move on then to item 6(b). The Chanhassen-Chaska Adult Basekball League. During the 1991-92 season there was an increase of 3 teams from the previous year so that was very nice to see. They just split up in two divisions, an'upper and a. lower division at the request of the members of the league. It really did work out very nice splitting up the league for competition levels. FOT some of the other teams that just preferred to play more for recreational league and more competitive league in the upper division so it really did work out nice and at the end of the year we had an in-house tournament. All teams were involved just to kind of see how the other teams fared in that. It really did work out very nice. The top... of the in-house did win and went to the State Basketball Tournament. Class B tournament at the Coon Rapids High School. One of the teams fared pretty decent throughout the league and...60 team tournament...top 15. The other team finished... All in all everything went pretty decent except for the one official, that was one of their concerns last year. Possibly lowering the registration fees. One of the questions brought up to go with one official or go with two and have the league call their own fouls. They opted to have one official and tried it out this year and at times it wasn't as good an idea as they expected it to be so we're going to be having a wrap up meeting for the adult basketball league next week and that will be discussed at that time. What court they want to take...so all in ~all the basketball league did run very smoothly...so we're happy with the... Are there any questions or comments regarding the basketball? Andrews: Yeah, I have a question. what is the cost difference that's created by having two officials instead of one? Ruegemer: Okay. Last year the fees were $345.00 but that covers time keepers, score keeper, all the State tournament fees, the two officials. Really all the operating costs involved for the league. This year by cutting that one official and having a lower overhead to pay the officials, we got the fee down to $225.00. Andrews: How many total games did they play? Ruegemer: They had 11 or 12 games. It went from about the mid part of November through the first 2 weeks in March. AndYews: So you seem to be feeling that 2 officials would be probably better? Ruegemer: Yeah. I think they found that out this year too... There was discussion about that this year. I'm confident that will be... Andrews: I just have one question back on the open gym. Are we doing anything to try to draw more numbers? It seems like a 10 person program is not that cost efficient for what we're providing. I'm sure it's advertised. Does it seem to be growing a little bit or is it kind of the ~same people every time and no new faces? Park and Ree Commission Meeting April 28, 1992 - Page 10 Ruegemer: It's essentially the same people week to week with the exception of... It just depends on what... Andrews: That's always basketball then? That's what's allowed? Lash: A lot of kids that age play basketball on Saturday morning already so by the time they've already played and you've already devoted your Saturday morning to taking your kids to play basketball, you're not highly motivated to do it again in the afternoon. Andrews: Let's move on. Ruegemer: Dawne will be giving the Easter Egg Hunt... Lemme: First I'd like to tell you I am glad to be here... My last 2 weeks I've kind of jumped in with both feet with the Easter Egg or the Easter festivities. It was really fun. It was nice to get started with an event that really went well and had large amount of attendance. We had several people taking guesses as to how many people we had there. I think there were at least 400 kids and probably another 150 parents to accompany ~hem. The gym was jam packed and for all the activities, there were massive amounts of people if you were there. But we had a lot of volunteers and that helped considerably. We did the standard things that we I guess have done the last few years. We had a coloring contest which Jan was on~ of. our judges and we had probably about 100 kids submit entries. That went real well. We bought prizes through money that was donated from sponsors and had some nice prizes for the winners of the contest. We had some suggestions for every item that we did. We had some suggestions that would better the event for next year. Couple of the things for coloring contest were just to kind of change the format of the form which they actually color on. Make sure that the name and the grade are on the back so that there's no bias or anything like that. Also to maybe have some separate prIzes to be able to give out some more prizes to the kids so it's not just one winner for say the preschool group or the K-2 group. That way we could have maybe a winner for the kindergartners, first graders, second graders, third graders. All the way up and I think that would be feasible just looking at the budget, we did quite well. We could have done that. There was a performance again this year and we had Rebecca and Ramona Rabbit. That went ~ell as far as for the most part. It was so crowded in the gym though that people in probably the back quarter of the gym probably didn't hear much and there were a lot of parents talking and I think it was hard to hear. Some possibilities would be maybe to split up the performances. Do a couple performances. Maybe not do it at all or having something that maybe is more entertaining or maybe even have the stage right in the center of the gym so that more people could participate and see what was actually goi ng on. Then we moved to the basket maki ng and we had these Ii ttl,e paper bags and kids were able to decorate those and that went fine. We had the National Honor Society kids thereto help and they were wonderful. They each took a table and.they really pitched in. That was great. And we had a couple suggestions for that as we wrote on here that maybe to have bags printed with Chanhassen Park and Recreation or the sponsors names to give them some further publicity and just because we are running out of space in the cafeteria where we had the things, it might be able to be a way to eliminate that. And then of course the most popular thing was the candy -J' --' .J Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~April 28, 1992 - Page 11 hunt and we had a lot of candy. We went out and bought a lot of candy and every ounce of it was gone. We did save a couple, you know a box at the end to hand to anyone, a~y kids who did~'t get any or didn't ~uite get enough and we'd like to have a couple boxes for next year just because people came up to us afterwards and were concerned that they only had a couple pieces of candy. But for the most part, I think everyone got enough candy to go home with. One gentleman came in and suggested that maybe we do the whole thing a little bit differently and that is to have the hunt possibly like in one large area and have everyone circle around because then maybe that would eliminate some of the stampeding. And if you're faster you kind of get more candy and if you're slower, if you're a parent holding two children, you were kind of the last ones there and didn't get as much so trying to figure out some ways to make things a little less disorganized or hectic looking. But as I said, everyone got some candy so that's what counts. The expenses, we had donations of $600.00 and spent about $550.00 and then we had the drawing for the Chanhassen Dinner Theatre tickets and I think the parents really appreciated that as well. And thank you notes were sent out to everybody who was a sponsor and to everyone who helped. Overall I thi nkthe event went really well and should definitely be continued. And as I wrote in here, I think it's just going to get bigger every year so that should be accounted fOT. Are there any questions or anything on that? Andrews: I had several neighbors that went to this. I, myself ~unfortunately didn't make it with our family but the feedback I get is that I agree, this thing is going to get big fast because they loved it and they're already, I'm going to make sure they go plus bring all their friends. I think you're going to see this isn't a rabbit joke but this is definitely going to multiply. Lash: Well I was there and I'm going to estimate that there was a million. I have some comments on this. Personally I thought the ribbon for entrants, every entrant. Lemme: The participants in the coloring contest? Lash: That was great. I mean there were so many kids who were just thrilled to death to get that ribbon and they were beautiful ribbons. So that was really money well spent I thougnt. Everybody was really happy with that. I did hear some comments from parents, I heard some people leave. They said this is ridiculous, I'm getting out of here because it was so crowded. And then I heard some people who were grumbling because they were trying to budget their time and just come for the candy hunt and then they were a little frustrated by the fact that we were ahead of schedule. Now I'm not saying that's our fault in anyway. What are we supposed to do? Hold people back and say well, now you're all going to have to wait 20 minutes now because we're ahead of schedule. I have thought maybe an option, and a couple of people had said to me too, they thought the play should be shorter. I remember going with my children when they'were smaller and it seems to be a continual problem is that you go in for the play. The kids try to watch it. The parents stand in the back and ~talk and the kids can't hear and it gets too long and the kids get antsy. A could people suggested to me that it should be shorter. I don't know if that's a possibility that we can tell the performers that we want this skit Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 28, 1992 - Page 12 .....,;' to be shorter. And then I thought with the growth that we're experiencing, maybe what we need to do is come up with a shift 'where we start with the preschoolers and kindergartners and they watch the show for 15 minutes and then they move to the lunchroom and make their bags and then the first and second graders go in and watch the show for 15 minutes and they rotate to make their bags and the littler kids go out to do the hunt and then the big kids watch the skit and everybody just rotates around and when you're done with the candy you leave. Lemme~ We talked about that. A rotation idea might work better and split them into three separate groups. It did get kind of claustrophobic in the hallways and we had people that thought that the show was over and kind of, well they really did sort of stampede us. We couldn't hold them back from the basket making and then I know Jerry was running the candy hunt and he was walking out the door or had waved or the Boy Scouts had waved them on that things were ready and they took that as a sign that they could run for the candy and so I think that's what, it kind of pushed things ahead of ~chedule. Everything got pushed ahead because there was such a big crowd. Lash~ You had a megaphone but maybe we need a real shrill whistle. But it just gets to be like a madhouse in there. Really, if you've ever gone to the Fun Fair, it's like going to the Fun Fair. It's just a madhouse in there. And maybe knowing it's going to grow every year, we maybe need to get creative with how we're going to deal with these and lots of people and people get real testy about if their kids get the same amount of candy and kids cry and you know, it's really a lot of fun. I like the ribbons and then the coloring contest thing. We need to have very, very clear instructions on the thing. What they're supposed to do with the coloring contest because kids were bringing them into our school. One fifth grader came up to me and sa'id I gave mi ne to my teacher but I don't see it here. I had no idea where it was so her's never got entered at all. So we need to have very clear directions of what they're supposed to do with that and bring it to. -' Lemme~ A more specific place. Lash~ Yeah. And then have their name and their grade on the back. They could have their grade on the front. That would okay but their name and their phone number because if they leave or if they don't come at all to the Easter Egg Hurit but their coloring contest was there, and it says M~ndy 5 on it. Lemme~ It's kind of hard to track them down isn't it. Lash~ Who it is, right. To track them down. But if they had their name and their phone number on the back and then theirgrade'level on the front. It'd make the prize distribution a little bit easier. Lemme~ Certainly any suggestions for. Lash: And then maybe some kind of disclaimer too about the times are. Lemme~ please come early. There's a chance that thinks could go faster. ..." Park and Rec Commission Meeting "" Apr i 1 28, 1992 - Page 13 Lash: Right. Because I saw several people come in who were coming just for the candy and then they were mad because it was already over. Andrews: I want to make sure I understand. Is this like 200 kids free falling for candy? Is that what happens? It kind of got a melee kind of thing? Hoffman: They run, yeah. Lemme: They run across the whole park field to get to.the candy. They kind of have a countdown. AndTews: How wide of an area are we letting? Lemme: They're in one long line from the school. Hoffman: 100 ya~ds. Lemme: Yeah. To the ice rinks almost. Andrews: So there's not a collision problem really? Ruegemer: It was a little bit shorter this year. It was about 35 minutes. Hoffman: Yeah. I'd say 10 minutes. Lemme: Yeah, I'd say the preschoolers were lost probably after about 5 minutes. Lash: The parents were lost after about... Lemme: And when you can't hear, it's even worst and that's why I suggestion anyway with that basket making, maybe just to, it's fun but it's ~just like one more item trying to fit in there timewise and if you could do something creative with the bags instead, that might be. Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 28, 1992 - Page 14 --' Andrews: The kids are there for the candy. That's what they want. Lemme: That's right. They just want something to put their candy in. Andrews: You know I remember it was like at Christmas time when we had to wait for the dishes to be done and the parents had to talk and it was torturous and those kids have got to be just going crazy for a 35 minute ~lay and another 15 minutes of this and then arguing with mom about when can we get the candy. You've got to wait. You can't run. You can't do this. You can't do that. The kids, it's got to be awful for them. Lemme: Plus, it was so cold, we didn't want to just have people standing out there like lan said for long periods of time. It was too cold. We had to get things moving. Andrews~ I agree with Jan. to the main event faster. We need to speed up the anticipation and get I think everybody would be happier with that. Koubsky: Would it work possibly to break it into two different parts of the day? Hav~ the little kids in the morning and the bigger kids in the afternoon so the little ones don't get trampled? Lemme: The only thing with that is if the parents have children in more than one age group, then they have to come back twice and that's kind of makes the day a long day. Erickson: I have a question. You mentioned possibly putting the names on the back of the coloring contest form in the future. Do you post all of these on the walls and stuff? And then after'next year you're going to have people complaining that they don't know who colored what because they want to see their neighbor's picture a~d their friend's picture and this and that and they can't find it. ...""tI' Hoffman: You might. Koubsky: In response to that too. Our kids have always had their things put up at Cub in Minnetonka and while their names are on the front, we never look for the name. My kids always know which picture is their's and you're there to look at your picture anyway so I really don't think they'd have any trouble identifying. Lash: I've judged two years and the reason for it is, you know I'm human and if I know it's a kid that I know 'from school and I know it's somebody who'd really appreciate a prize or who never wins an~thing or ~ou know, I can't help but be swayed by some of that kind of stuff and this year as an example, Wendy and I both happened to pick the first preschooler one. The same one and it was a neighbor kid of mine. And I felt guilty about that. I know now are people going to think that I picked it because he's a neighbor of mine and that wasn't the reason but I couldn't help but feel guilty. And the next one that we both liked, I looked and it was another neighbor of mine. I said well I can't pick another neighbor. Now if I hadn't seen the names, you know I would know that. it would have, so we picked'a different one from our first choice because I just thought it ~ would start to look really fishy if two neighbor kids of mine won. Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~APril 28, 1992 - Page 15 Lemme: I think the ribbons are nice for just, so that everyone comes away with something. Lash: The parents really had nice comments about that too. They really thought that was nice and the chocolate egg, that was really neat too. Andrews: Thank you very much for your reports. Hoffman: We'll condense all of that. I mean it's a year later and we forget all this conversation so that we'll condense it all. Make some hard specific recommendations and that goes on the top of the file when you open it next year. Andrews: More candy, less waiting. Hoffman: 3,400 pieces this year. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS: Andrews: Are there any commission member presentations tonight? Lash: I'd just like to apoiogize .for being late. I was at the School district public information and... ~KoubskY: Were there a lot of people? Lash: I'd say, if you just count all the committee and task force people, there was probably 30. Erickson: I see the new Chanhassen Pond Park signs up. Chanhassen Park Pond, Chanhassen. A couple neighbors gave me a bad time about that. It's a nice sign. Andrews: The only comment I wanted to make would be, are ball teams supposed to contact the city regarding using fields for practices? Unfortunately, it seems like that once a ball team gets onto a field, they feel like they have the right to exclude any other citizen from u~ing that field when they're using it for a practice. And you always feel a bit intimidated when there's other people that know each other and you don't know them and you walk down to the field and they kind of look at you like, wh~ don't you get out of here. And what are they supposed to do? And how can we make it clear that what our policies are regarding what fields for practices and games? Hoffman: North Lotus is not a field. I mean we. don't reserve it f'or softball practice but they certainly go out there and they find it available and it they pick it up. Ruegemer: Are you talking adult softball? Andrews: Yeah. ,... . Hoffman: So lf we find it becomes a problem, there's a bunch of different arguments. I mean that's what parks are for is these are presumably some Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 28, 1992 - Page 16 --' residents and they're out there practicing and it will last for another week and then they'll probably be gone. Andrews: It's not a problem. I just kind of anticipate sort of a problem of an organized practice being somewhat closed to the neighbor that wants to pick up his glove and shag a few fly balls or whatever. Hoffman: Sure. We attempt to keep them off of Lake Ann for practices simply to let the new grass and new fields come about and we can't do that. We reserve fields for adult softball practice at Meadow Green and at City Center Park. Those are the only two and they can reserve it during the week. On weekends we take no reservations. It's first come, first serve. Andrews: Okay. Lash: So you would prefer that they not go to Lake Ann? Hoffman: Correct. Lash: They should call you to schedule it for Meadow Green or City Center? Berg: Has the season started? Ruegemer: Last night... Lash: They can't play when ,it's chilly. Arthritis. -' , Hoffman: You're correct Jim, we'll see more and more intensive use on our neighborhood parks and they'll find their way into all sorts of spots. Once Curry Farms is up and running and a few ball teams find their way down there, we'll receive additional comments from neighbors. Andrews: North Lotus obviously is the one I see the most and I mentioned it before about the parking there. We need more parking for North Lotus. That park gets a lot ~f driving use now. People are coming to that park for practices. Softball practices. We are now seeing a softball practice going on at the same time there are two soccer teams practicing and there are cars filling up the whole lot. They're on the grass. They're on the side of the street. And that llttle squiggly park there, I mean it's not easy to see the kids there when those cars are parked and then I~m af~aid that a small child's going to get run do~n when somebody comes through there. And I know I've stated it before but I feel we should look into the idea of expanding the parking lot that is in the park itself. Providing additional parking spaces. I think we could do that and I think it'a definitely necessary based on the amount of use that park's getting. Hoffman: North Lotus is one of our largest neighborhood parks and it has a fairly large unused portion of the park which is currently being maintained. There is some talk about we could put an additional soccer field down in that area but then it takes away from the flavor of being a neighborhood park and turns it into an athletic complex. But there i~ certainly vacant available space for other types of improvements including parking if that need be. '"""" Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~APril 28, 1992 - Page 17 Andrews: Any other presentation~? Let's move on. ADMINISTRATIVE SECTION. Hoffman: Any comments or questions on the Administrative Section? We've got a wide variety of informational type of articles. Andrews: Any u~date on the free tree offer? How successful were we? Hoffman: Dawne worked the tree sale. The free tree giveaway. Erickson: I picked up 12 of them. Hoffman: Good. You were the' one when Dawne was gone for half an hour, just stopped in and grabbed a bunch? Erickson: There was just a guy. Hoffman: oh. That was our new volunteer. Shel Eckoberg'. We gave away what, 4 out of. Lemme: Probably 3 out of full boxes...and all the left over seedlings are going to be planted... ~Hoffman: Retaining ponds. Erickson: I read through that but who paid for the seedlings? We got them from the DNR right? Hoffman: Yes. Ruegemer: Mr. Erhart. He buys them every year and donates them to the city. Hoffman: Dawne was a former Park Commission member. Erickson: That was a nice give away. They're not very big. In another 30 years, you don't know the difference. Andrews: That's why they call them seedlings. Any other report on how the project with Lotus Lawn and Garden? Is there a program? Lash: That's under the Tree Board. Andrews: Why don't we defer that to the Tree Board then. Lash: I want to comment on the youth adult planned teen center in Chaska. I think that's a really good idea. A really good idea. And for now if they want to locate it by the High School where the majority, not the majority. A percentage of the Chaska/Chanhassen teens go to High School, that's fine but someday maybe we need to face the fact that Chan maybe ~ should have one of it's own. Maybe the High School will be here. Who knows. Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 28, 1992 - Page 18 ......" Hoffman: There was a resident who was very interested in trying to establish a teen center but as a business in chanhassen and obviously that did not work because of the overhead costs of a facility so. But her concerns were mainly rooted in the fact that she did not enjoy her teenager spending all their time at one particular establishment in town so wanted something else to do for them. Lash: When I was, way back when I was a teenager, I just happened to live across the street from our church and one wing that we used pretty much for Sunday School, they turned into kind of a teen center and they had a ping pong table on there with a bar and you could buy pop and stuff. And it was just nice because you could go there and just hang out with a few kids. There was always somebody ther~ and it wasn't like you were imposing on somebody's house or anything and it didn't cost a lot of money. We didn't have to bowl or do anything else. For me of course it was great because it was across the street but anything in town would be a nice place for them just to be able to get together with their friends in a somewhat supervised situation where parents wouldn't have to worry. Koubsky: Yeah, in conjunction with that, I was going to endorse the Chris Polster letter too. He's sort of talking about the same thing. It does seem ridiculous to me for the City to be spending money... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Koubsky: ...investigating and get rock hard nubmers although we already know it's a problem. Todd, what did the Counci 1 propose for that? What ..".,,' type of study? And how much is it? How much is it? I don't know if this letter is out of context or not. I tend to think it may be~ Richard Wing: ...editorial, the first half is totally erroneous. Talks about...wants someplace for kids to hang out and it's important...and I talked to Chris and I share his frustration. The seniors just took $160,000.00 just to redecorat~ the downstairs~..yet we don't have any money for kids per se... So the City Council is dealing with alcohol and only looking at 2:oning and planning. In talking to an alcohol abuse...it has nothing to do with alcohol whatsoever other than the City Council took a stand... Right now in Chanhassen legal is...cigarettes. So I brought up the alcohol issue. Only how many liquor stores do we want? ,What is our licensing responsibility and what...do we want bars across from churches? ...so there is no study being done. No money being spent. A public hearing may be called to get input from other people that may be interested but all we're looking at is 2:oning issues and the city's comprehensive plan and our licensing requirements under State law...Chris is totally off base... Now it just happened that the public hearing~..and they just did a" state study having to do with alcohol use with teenagers and it's very shocking. The study hasn't been released yet and I don't know if they will allow it. They're coming in and saying that...real serious problem. And then we go back to what really is the affect on our city. Well, Public Safety had a nightmare...so just to clarify that without being long winded, we're looking at zoning, planning and the comprehensive plan...discussion of alcohol... .,;i Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~APril 28, 1992 - Page 19 Lash: I maybe was reading between the lines a little bit and just because I'm familiar with the history~ I was reading a little into this as an endorsement for a community center for teens to be able to go to but yet, on the other hand, when you re~d the other article, here Chaska has this top notch community center and they're saying it's not adequate for a place for teens to go to hang out. So it's like what are we supposed to do? They have a I don't know how many million dollar facility there and it's what teens want. Or it's not conducive to what they need or whatever so I really don't know what we're supposed to do. And I looked at this letter as one point of being supportive of a community center to address' the issue of giving the teens a place to go and it seems contradictory with the other article. So I don't know. I have no idea what the answer is. Richard Wing: ...something that really interests me a lot. Has the City ever approached the churches in town? You know you brought up .the old lifestyle and the church sort of fit a role... Has anybody ever tried to coordinate a church... teen center that's funded and staffed and maybe have a counseler...? I'd like to see Chris go that direction. Maybe try to organize a resource... Andrews: I guess the problem is, where does that organization start? Does it start at our Board? Are we authorized to take any real action? Or does that come from the Council? Right when you made your comment, this is an interesting subject. I'm thinking, well geez. We've never really '" solicited any input from the teenagers as to what they would like for a recreational facility. We're thinking in the park mode. A recreational facility can be construed to include a place to hang out. And from what you're saying about this study, it sounds like we'd better find something that can provide a healthy alternative because if we don't provide it as a recreational facility, we'll be providing medical services and detentional facilities at a much higher cost and much more negative impact on 6ur teens. I don't know what we can do about that but I think it's something we do need to look at in the future as some sort of a hearing'or trying to encourage teenagers perhaps to form a group of their own and come to us with their ideas of what they would like to see. Hoffman: We certainly have to keep in mind that sports is not the cure all. I would have to venture that probably less than 50% are interested in sports as recreation. They're doing a lot of other things that we simply don't address. Andrews: The sporting side of it is the easy way out. You know we provide you the field. We provide you the court and the ball. Go have fun and your problems are over. You know we're dealing with a much more serious issue and I think it will be a much harder one to solve. Lash: I had a thought and now I lost it. Never mind. Berg: Yeah, and there's a real fine line between providing the athletics and providing a place for them to hang out because just hanging out gets to be a real problem too. I mean we've done undercover things up at the High ~ School. That's where they found the drugs and the alcohol is down where they were hanging out. So you're right, the complex problem is finding Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 28, 1992 - Page 20 what to do with them or what they' can do while they're there. Or that they'll show up for more than one. Andrews: Andis that within the realm of the Park ~nd Recreation Board? Is that a recreational ac~ivity? I'm not sure. ....,,;" Erickson: I guess I'm thinking of maybe what I'd term a light recreation. I mean we've got like you say the sports with the complex in Chaska and the softball fields and this and that/but the ping pong tables and the backgammon boards and the pool table and some of those light activity kind of things. whe~e the girls can make eyes at the guys and the guys can make eyes at the girls and do all those things that you do when you're thot age. Just a room with some couches in it, I mean I can see where Fred's right on...sit around, well let's find something to do. I've got something we can do. And if we can.start something like that here, I think that's a good idea because that was the missing link when I was that age. The growns up can go play softball and after that they can go to a bar and the young kids have got the Easter Egg Hunts and Nintendo and stuff like that but that other age group,. what do they do? They need their own space and their own things to do. Maybe some soft activities. Lash: My thought came back now. I'm getting old. They come and go. But a friend of mine has a son that's a Junior and they've been members at St. Hubert's forever. She said that when she was in 9th grade, 8th grade, 9th grade they had someone at their church who was really interested in trying to start something for that age group and the older kids to get them involved in youth activities. He had suggested lock in's and had suggested .....", some field trip kind of th~ngs and it just never flew. Part of the reason she thought that it didn't fly was because it was being promoted by the. church. Somewhere along the line kids that age link that if it's a church, it's not going to be fun. So you've got to be kind of careful. Maybe you can get a church to donate the space for it. The kids maybe still won't go there because it's church and then they have the connection that it's something that won't be fun. That it will be religion related and it really isn't. . Andrews: I'd really like to see us look into this further~ I think it's an important area. I think we should solicit the teenagers. Very few times does a teenager have an adult ask them for what they think should be done. It's usually, here are my rules. You do them my way. Lash: What we think is healthy for you to do. And it gives us an opportunity to provide a healthy environment based on what they'Ye asking for. I can see lots of complications regarding supervision and hanky panky or whatever you want to call it but I also see a real important opportunity here, especially with the two income households and teenage~s really need that opportunity to get out of the house. That little bit of independence and maybe we could coordinate or help provide an activity. Maybe bring this up further another time. Berg: It's real impdrtant to understand that most of the kids that are out there are really good kids too. And they wouldn't abuse something like this and I think you're right on when you say, let's find out what they want. I think that should be the first step. ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 28, 1992 - Page 21 ,...., Lash: I thought it was really interesting in the article about wanting it to be drug and alcohol free and that was the request of the kids. I thought that said a lot right there. Andrews: Let's put that on a future agenda item. Hoffman: Okay. Andrews: Are there any other items of business for our meeting? If not, can we have a motion to adjourn? Erickson moved, Koubsky seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 8=45 p.m.. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Coordinator Prepared by Nann Opheim ""...., ,....,