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PRC 1992 06 23 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION ~REGULAR MEETING JUNE 23, 1992 Chai,man Sch,oe,s called the meeting to o,de, at 7:30 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: La"y Sch,oe,s, Jan Lash, Wendy Pem,ick, Randy E,ickson, Jim And,ews and Dave Koubsky MEMBERS ABSENT: F,ed Berg STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Pa,k and Rec Coo,dinato,; Jer,y Ruegeme" . Recreation Supervisor; and Dawn Lemme, Program Specialist Sch,oers: Since we have quite a few people in the audience here tonight and some things to attend to, we're going to move ahead to items 3 and 4 fi,st and get those taken care of and then we'll move back to the ,est of the agenda after that. So we'll start with item.3. NEIGHBORHOOD MEETING. CARVER BEACH PARK. VEHICLE PARKING. Public Present: Name Address Pat & Keith Gunderson Roger Byrne r-~~ &. CU.!!'>.!t1l Ooud. ie: 6660 Lotus T,ail 6724 Lotus T,ail jC..4e2 Ml"lrra,7 Ilill Read Hoffman: Chairman Sch,oers and commissioners. Following a motion by the Park Commission at their May 19th meeting, to call a neighborhood meeting in regards to vehicle parking at Ca,ver Beach Park. The enclosed notification in you, packet was mailed for that neighborhood. To reiterate the installation of four parallel parking spaces with one of the four being designated as handicapped parking is being recommended. This action is needed to bring the City into compliance with the ADA, the American with Disabilities Act and provide reasonable access to a public park facility. These parking spaces are to be accommodated by a widening of the shoulder of Lotus Trail, which is a gravel road, for a length of approximately 80 to 100 feet~ The location of the parking is to be just north of the small beach on the east side of Lotus Trail. This design has been discussed with the City's enginee,ing and planning departments. The placement of signage designating the parking spaces will be coordinated with the engineering and public works depa,tment. Again, following the comment by the neighbors who are here this evening, it is recommended that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the City Council app,ove the construction and signage' of four parallel parking spaces, one of the four to be for persons with handicaps, at Carver Beach Park as specified in the documents and shown on the attached maps. Ove, to the exact location. North being directly up, we have the length of Carver Beach Park with the main beach and the four parking spots currently existing at the park in this location. Then traveling to the north, the mini-beach is located in this location. Fishing dock and then the canoe racks are down in this location. Again as ~ stated in the lette,s, pa,king does occu, down the,e and is tole,ated to a certain degree. However, the City does receive a call, a complaint call, Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 2 to enforce it and then you go down, because it is currently signed no parking. Either write a ticket or give a warning and inform those persons that parked there that they must move. Obviously they're confused many . times because they parked there previously and nobody in the neighborhood has chosen to call and report that the vehicle is parked there. They're receiving mixed signals from the city. This would rectify the situation in placing four stalls in this location. That dashed line does show the . extent of Lotus Trail which is posted No Parking all the way along the lakeshore in that location. This recommendation is to place four parallel parki ng spots in that location. . On a 1 i ttle larger scale, this shows you the parking as it would fall just to the north, I mean to east of Lotus Trail. Directly across from this parking... ....", Schroers: Okay, thanks. At this time then we'll entertain any comments from the residents of the Carver Beach area or any other residents of the city that wish to comment on the parking there. If you'd be so kind as to come to the podium and state your name and address for us please and we'd like to hear what you have to say. Roger Byrne: My name's Roger Byrne. I live at 6724 Lotus Trail there. Right across from the mini-beach. I don't know if I've 90~ too much for comments. I've got some questions. I'd be interested to know why that location was picked for the parking, for one thing. It seems there's some better spots probably. I don't know if anybody, I don't know who was down there and who looked at it. Who decided what, where. What was best or what. For one things there's a lot of trees the~e. Some are going to have to be removed to facil i tate this deal. And. we've got a problem. with trees ....." out there right now it seems like. And to cut anymore down doesn't seem to be just the right thing to do at this point in time really. Another thing is, there's the park actually goes a lot farther than what it shows on that map there. I mean there's a lot of land down past Lotus Trail that isn't even on a road which would be a lot better for parking. That could be used you know. I don't know if anybody even took that into consideration. Schroers: Down where the old access used to be? Is that where you're talking about? Roger Byrne: Right, past the old access. That's all parkland down there too. That's the same as what, from the access to the mini-beach. On down the other waY from the old access down is parkland also. And there was something else I can't remember right now but. Oh, as far as the handicapped thing, I don't know. From what I heard, they said that somebody was using the dock out there and they said they had to park there because they were handicapped. Well to put a handicapped parking spot down there by that dock, you don't want to encourage any handicapped people to use that dock because that's not a handicapped dock. They'll end up in the lake. If you try to roll a wheelchair or something out there, that's not. I don't think that's a good idea. If you take a look at that dock and then take a look at what handicapped people need, that's not a handicapped dock. You don't want to encourage anybody handicapped to be down there on that thing. I don~t know, I just wondering. I'm just looking for some answers to them questions. That's my deal. -' Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 3 I"" Schroers: Okay. Todd, do you know if the site further down, past the old approach was looked at in regards to parking? Hoffman: The parkland which would be farther to the north, once you turn up and take Lotus Trail onto, is it Mohawk? Is park property. It's not on a city street so it would be somewhat more difficult to go ahead and install parking in there. They would be backing up and turning around. Roger Byrne: That is a city street. Doesn't the street up through there? It's all gravel just like Lotus Trail. In fact it must be part of Lotus Trail. Hoffman: That site would not be as clean to develop. Would not work as well as the site which is being proposed this evening. To go ahead and address Mr. Bryne's question, the reason why this site was chosen and as the Commissioners who were that evening noticed, there's an absence of a residential homefronts just opposite this location. It's a hillside. If you were to move the parking farther to the south or the north, you would be installing parking stalls in front of homefronts. The issue of removing trees. No trees will be removed as a part of this project. Currently we're thinking probably the shoulder would be widened by an extent of 4 to 6 feet with additional gravel. The issue of what is handicapped accessible. It's simply not the city's position to designate what is and what is not a handicapped accessible piece of city park equipment or a city "....." facili ty. That is really left up to the i ndi viduals who choose to use each park site within the city. Schroers: Okay, I think that maybe to help clarify. As well we're talking about here is not a full scale parking lot. All we're talking about is a little widening in the road so people can get out of the way so other traffic can continue to pass by without a hazard and we don't anticipate that it's something that's going to be busy or heavily used either. It's just going to be a little widening of the shoulder so a car can safely pull out and park. Koubsky: I don't think we were anticipating taking any trees down either were we Todd? It's just a matter of putting some Class V on there so if people did pull off, they wouldn't get stuck if it started raining or something. Roger Byrne: If you extend the curb 4 to 6 feet out from right where you'ye talking about there, you're going to be hitting those trees. Now you can maybe put the rock around the trees and leav~ them there. One way or the other the trees that are going to be there are going to die. I really think that if you insist that that's where it's going to be, I think you should have an environmental impact study on it because it's awful close to the lake right there. It just seems to me there's a lot better places on down the line or maybe back up the other way...we're going to lose some trees there one way or the other if you insist on placing it there. I'm sorry but that's, apparently you people haven't looked at it very closely because I live right there and I've lived there for 20 years ,.....and I know how wide it is there. If you extend the curb out 4 to 6 feet, you're into the trees. And there are some pretty good sized trees down there too...but that's exactly the way it is. . Park and Rec Commission Meeting, June 23, 1992 - Page 4 5chroers: Okay, thank~. Keith Gunderson: My name's Keith Gunderson, 6650 Lotus Trail. I'm just north of the site. Pr6posed site. I've got a couple of questions I'd like \ to have answered. The dock that we have down there right now, in the past 2 years has changed locations twice and right now it still is not in the location that it was originally proposed for. So I'd like to know where the dock is going to stay. Okay. From what I understand, Rocky touched on a couple points here as far as not a handicapped dock. And I think there, is a regulation as far as it should have a ramp. It should have rails and it should have a better access. This is not safe at all. Then your map ~n the proposed parking. The grayed in area really leads a person to belfeve th*t there's a lot of room down there and Rocky's right. There's just not a lot of room down there. If you're going to make this wider, to m.ke this safer for handicapped parking, you can go into. any handicapped parking stall and you can measure out and find out how wide it is. It's got to have access on both passenger and driver sides. And if you're going to get into this kind of distance, I just think that possibly there's going to have to be a retaining wall put in. There's going to have to be trees cut down. I think this should be mea~ured out a little bit closer. Andis it going to be paved or is' it just going to be like you say a Class V going to be put in there? It should be checked out a little bit more. Okay, I've had several conversations with 'the officers in the area because of the trouble in the area. I'm sure you're aware of the swing that was down in the park area for quite a while. That is now since been removed. The officer that I did talk to said there was over 70 arrests down there and none of these are local people. Now if we're going to be putting in more parking, and it's Just going to be inviting more trouble. I'think 4 parking spots is totally out of line. At the solit'h end of the beach, the large beach which you call it, has got 4 parking areas. You're calling this the north beach. Mini-beach, which is a lot less than a third of the size and you want to put in the same amount of parkihg. If you're going to put any kind of parking in at all, it should maybe be one space for handicapped. One space for other people. This beach was put in years and years ago for the local people in the surrounding area and I think that's probably the way it should stay. The public beach on the south end, again has a baihroom location on there. Is th~ north beach going to have a bathroom in it? Where is that going to be located at? Is that going to be handicapped equipped? I think the whole issue here is get something for the handicapped and make it safe for the handicapped. I think the better location for these parking areas is the area that Rocky talked about... North'of the pump house. It's in a dead end street. It's safer. There's ample room to fill. To make parking spaces. To put in a bathroom. The dock can be moved over there. It's out of 'the way~ It~s easy accessed and it's easier to turnaround in and you're off the road. You're off the main stream of traffic. It's not going to cost anymore. There's going to be a lot less mainten~nce. I don't think you have to put any kind of retaining wall in. It's just a better location all the way around. There's no problems. No cost and little or none maintenance. I think we should look at this a little bit closer and if any or all of these answers can't be, or questions can't be answered, the only other solution is just take the dock out. That will alleviate all the problems totally because again, the main thing here is the city has received several calls on handicapped parking for the use of this dock which is not handicapped equipped. Take it out. ....." ......-I --' Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 5 .~ Get it out of there. Put it on the north or on the south beach. The bathroom's already there. The parking's already there. Thanks. Hoffman: Chairman Schroers, if I could address those issues. This recommendation is more than just to adequately address needs, facilities of residents or persons with disabilities. There's been a number of occasions, not only this year but on previous years where again, parking is tolerated to a certain degree. I think if you ask the people who speaked tonight, they'll let you know that on certain days, there are vehicles who are parked there. Who are there using the beach. Using the canoe rack. Utilizing the dock or fishing from shore and many times that is tolerated. However again, when it is not tolerated, when we receive a call, we're forced then to go ahead and inform that person that they must move their vehicle or they will be ticketed. A distance of 4 to 6 feet can be accommodated in that location. That was measured out. Park Commissioners were there that evening. You can respond to that issue as well. No retaining wall is necessary. No/trees would be cut to accommodate ~his parking. The area will not be asphalted. Four parking stalls do exist at the south beach. Or excuse me, at the south of the larger beach and that is just simply a beach location. The~e is also a Satellite, portable restroom there. The north beach or the mini-beach also has the fishing dock and the canoe rack. There are six spaces on that canoe rack so parking needs to be made available to that as well. Portable restroom cannot be installed on the north site because of it's proximity to the ~lake. If there was a spillover or runoff into the water, is what we need to stay away from. The issue of moving the parking lot to the north of the old access or the curtent pump house there, just does not make any sense. In my thinking it over, if you drive in there, then you're going to have to necessitate or allow for back-up and turn around. You're going to have to take and improve a much larger surface into a gravel turn around type of situation. I'm not sure if this is just an issue of moving it farther down the street. It is not my belief that that would make a better location for parking. schroers: What about cost of developing parking down there? Do you think it would be roughly the same? Hoffman: Costs are insignificant. The maintenance in this type of thing is insignificant. It's simply you would have to drive into that location. Park. If you park parallel there you're going to have to turn around and exit traveling the opposite direction from which you traveled into there. You're going to have to do a full 180 degree turn around. Lash: Where, if we have the parking on the street, how are .the people who are parking on the street supposed to get turned around? Would they have to go down to that area, turn around ~nd then get out? Hoffman: Well presumably,they would go up, whichever direction they came from. If you're parking on the right hand side of the road, if you came down Lotus Trail, then you would exit on Mohawk. ,...... Lash: Is Mohawk not shown on this map? Park and RecCommission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 6 Hoffman: Not on this map, no. It's just off the picture to the north. So again, that area's in the residential homefronts abut that property directly. The area being recommended for parking in that regard is the only a~ea on this side of the park. Which lends itself to being out of the way. To not being visible from the fr6nt of homes. . .....,; Koubsky: That was orie of our major concerns too when we went down to look at that area is that we select a place that people aren't going to be looking into. Instead at a high bluff on the west side. Our intent here isn't to make a three lane highway down there. It's just to give enough people to pull off the side so cars can pass. Roger Byrne: What I hear is they're more interested in what's somebody view is then what the impact has on the environment. The big problem we've got right down there right now. That's the crux of the whole thing when somebody cut some trees down there. But you were the other way around on, that. Now this one, you're flip flopped around. You don't care about the environment. You just care about what somebody's going to have to look at. You don't worry about what the other way around. I don't understand. Schroers: That's not all we're saying. We're saying that we don't intend to cut down any trees in order t6do this. Roger Byrne: But you haven't looked at it then. Even if YOU don't cut them down, you fill ~round then, they're going to die. If you fill around trees, they die. It has to have... If you have cars parked there, there's oil leaking down there. When it rains, gravels going to wash down there. ....""I You're going to ruin that whole stretch of trees right there. You've got land right on down just a little ways where there is no trees. They've already been cut down. It's closer to the dock. I don't understand what his problem is with moving this parking down. I'm all for ~arking. I think people.hould access to that park. I've always said that for 10-15 years. I've been trying to get you people to do something with that nice piece of land down there so people can use it. If I was you I'd move it. But let's do it right. Why wreck some more of it just to accommodate so somebody don't have to look at cars in front of their house you know. It doesn't make any sense. You people afe flip flopping back and forth. Every tIme you turn around just to accommodate what, I don't understand. Resident: How about our driveway that accesses onto that road? If we're not so worried about that. Our driveways go out that way too. Now only that Mr. Hoffman, can you tell me how many calls are received every month for parking down there? You tell us that we okay it. How many are received actually per week down there for park~ng? Hoffman: I could not respond to that without going ahead and checking with Carver County Report record. Resident: It's a bunch. We've talked to the officers. There is problems down there and there aYe big problems down there. How are you going to patrol this? Who's going to maintain it? Keith Gunderson: We've talked to the officers in the area that have made some arrests on the swing and I think parking's going to just add... The ...." officers said they can't even catch these kids because they're literally in the middle and bottom of the park and you just can't catch these kids. Resident: He said that they lay down. They can't even see them. The swing back there. Keith Gunderson: ...pump house. can have...and they're very easy. parking stall... You already conceded the fact that you It's like getting in and out of a 5chroers: Did staff say that the City Engineers have looked at this project? Hoffman: Correct. The City Engineers and City Planners were..to that area and neither department had a problem with this proposal. The area in question is located up in this area? If we were to install parking in there, there are 3 homes which directly front this piece of property. You'd be taking lake frontage which is currently maintained...and pull that up and fill it with gravel to make that a parking area, turn around which would then be situated right in front of those homes. The area which is being recommended down here, you'd do much less damage to the park. You need to rip up much less turf. In fact all you're doing is widening the shoulder in the area where there is a sloping area down to the tree line which is in question there. Again, it's not our intent to kill trees. I ~do not believe that we will be killing trees...establishing those 4 parking spots. That 4 to 6 feet of gravel to the addition of the shoulder area is simply a precautionary measure to make that parking safer. Parking currently takes place on the shoulder as it exists. Any widening that we can do is simply making this a better situation. Keith Gunderson: If I could address the houses. Andrews: record. Could you go to the mic please just so we can have this for the Otherwise we have no way to refer back to what you're saying. Keith Gunderson: The houses in front of, north of the pump house. If there's 3 houses up there right now. One has got a dock in there at this time. Tuck's I believe has that which nobody else can have a dock. I don't know why he does and the next door neighbor I noticed for the last month or so, they've got a big dump truck parked on this land here also. Now this is park property. This should be used as public land. This guy is using it for his own parking lot. I'd like to see somebody address that also. I think a better look should just be taken at the proposed site. Because right now there is parking going on right now but when you open up the trees, or open up your door, it's right in oak trees. So yes, there's going to have to be fill put in and if you take a closer look at it, I mean just over the sid. it drops down about a good 5 feet. So where is this fill going to go when it rains? Where's it going to wash? Erickson: Would there be room near there for one head in spot that we ,...,could make wider for like a handicapped van? Are these large enough for , t ha t? Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 8 Keith Gunderson: Sure. You can make all the room you want if you cut trees and put in fill and put in a retaining wall. ...,;' Erickson: Without tqking out trees or changing the shoreline. Keith Gunderson: I don't know what the regulations are as far as what you have to have for footage on" each side of a vehicle on a handicapped vehicle. But as far as a van, some of the vans that I have seen, they're 8. feet wide. Your door swings open on either side a good 3 feet and right now there's not even close to any kind of room like that. Lash: Part of our perception problem here might be in everybody's mental image of handicapped. For" some reason when we talk about handicap, people assume a person is in a wheelchair. I" don't know for' sure the people, the women who were down there before, my impression of the memo that we got, it was not a wheelchair" bound person. I can relate personally to my mother- in~law who has a handicap sticker on her car. She was not in a wheelchair. She was just, her lung capacity was such that she couldn't park way out far away from Target or something so she had the right to a handicap spot. Now I haven't even seen the dock but I trust your word that it would "not be the kind of thing a person in a wheelchair would want to go onto and r don't even know if that's what we are intending by saying that we think that there should be a handicap spot there. It's just basically the law that it's supposed to be there and if the dock doesn't accommodate a wheelchair and there's no access for a wheelchair to get to the dock, I really rather doubt th~t someone in a wheelchair would be going there. But it could be some~neelse with some type of a handicap that gives them the right to a handicap sticker with the right to a handicap spot. So I just want "to clarify that I think everybody gets real hung up on the fact that handicap just assumes that a person's in a wheelchair and I think we need to look at a bigger picture here of what that definition is. -" Schroers: That's exactly the point when we discussed the issue previously. What we were going to do was make one handicap spot available at the front edge of the parking so that anyone that has some degree of a disability would have less of a distance to go to get to the lake. But this has not been designed as a full handicap accessible facility down there and that's not what we're advertising. All we wanted to do is provide some parking. We stuck money in the park. We developed the pay-k, which is what the neighbor said that they would like to have, and if we invest money and develop a facility_and not provide parking, that's ridiculous. I mean we need a couple of places to park there and we're not talking about a great big elaborate parking lot here. We're just going to widen the shoulder a little bit and try not to hurt anything in so doing. And we don't anticipate that it's going to attract a lot more people to the area. Only people that know about it now. It would just give them a place to park whereby they would not be ticketed fOT parking there. And that is our only... (There was a tape change at this point.) Andrews: Todd, was the intent to more aggressively enforce no parking if we were to provide spots there designated as legal parking? ....." Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 9 ,...., Hoffman: Parking i~ currently enforced, from my understanding, pretty routinely down there currently. Andrews: Well it sounds like it's on a complaint only basis rather than an actual what I'd call enforcement by patrol at least. Hoffman: I can't respond to the patrol schedule. down there but certainly once we install parking, to see to it that it doesn't get abused and they don't start parking additional vehicles there past the 3 normal stalls and then the handicap we can ask the Sheriff's Department to do those. Schroers: As far as problems with teenagers and that sort of thing down in the park, that's really not.our jurisdiction at all. That's law enforcement and all you can do, if you bring it to Park and Rec, all we can do is request to the law enforcement people that they, that we can just notify them that we've had concerns from the citizens and ask them if they could step up their efforts in the area but we don't have'any authority as far as law enforcement is concerned in the park. Keith Gunderson: In either location, whichever one you choose, when you do put up the signs, are there going to be any kind of hours posted at all? Because I know when you get into any other parks in the state here, there is always hours. You've got boats running across the lake at 10:30 and 11: 00 at night. ~Erickson: Todd, aren't all the lakes posted to 10:00? Hoffman: Park hours are 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m.. Erickson: And that one sign is at the mini-beach which would be near where the parking. They're supposed to be closed at 10:00 as it is. Keith Gunderson: Okay, and that will be patrolled on a regular basis I would imagine. Hoffman: Again we would make that request to the Sheriff's Department that they patrol that portion of the city. The Department did respond to the issue of the rope swing. We received two calls on that issue directly to the department. The swing was probably 40-45-50 feet in the air. Keith Gunderson: A lot of fun. Did you get on it? Hoffman: The park department crews did go down there and remove the swing. Remove the steps to the swing and the other trash which had accumulated in the area due to that swing being in that location. Schroers: Okay. And did you note the personal property that is being parked on park property right now? He mentioned that there was a dump truck and stuff parked there. In the beginning when we were starting to develop this area, there was a lot of boats and things that were tied up down there to the trees that did not have a right to be there and we ~pursued that and got them all removed. We appreciate you bringing that to our attention because we do not want private property parked on the park property. Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 10 Roger Byrne: I guess I've got an idea Todd. If you insist on having it there, which I have no personal problem with per se. Parking being right there in that location. Why not just take down a few of the ho parking signs there. Let them park there. Why do you have to widen it? They've been parking there anyway. Let them park there. You don't have to widen it and kill them trees and stuff... Just take a couple signs down and let them park there. Put up One at the end where you want to and I mean they've been parking there now. Why do you have to wreck something so they can par k there when they're al ready P~!lT ki ng there? I'd go along with that. If you don't want to move it down. If you want to put gravel and stuff, put it down there where it belongs. If you want to just have them park there, just let them park there. --' Schroers: Your point is well taken and I guarantee there's nobody sitting here that wants to see any trees be killed. We don't want that. Roger Byrne: I don't want to see stuff wrecked down theTe you know and that's what's going to happen. If you insist on widening it out there. Erickson: The only thing we want to do is if we allow people to park, right now if you give people an area to park that is now dirt and grass and sod and they get down there and it gets rainy. It's going to get mucked up and I think there's going to he a lot more damage to the side of the road than if we put a dumpload of Class V down there and spread it out. Roger Byrne: I could see it spread out from what it is right now you know but he's talking, he keeps saying widen it 4 to 6 feet wider you know and -,C you're into the trees. Schroers: I'll recommend that we have the City Engineers to look at it again and specify that we definitely do not want any damage occurring to the trees there. But we also would like to create as safe a situation as possible and try to get the cars bff the traffic lane if we can. Roger Byrne: I guess that's all I'm looking for. I sti~l think it's safer and better down farther but you know. If you have to put it there, you know, just don't wr~ck anything, that's all. Schroers: I think we can modify our recommendation to accommodate that. We'll t T Y . Lash: I have a couple of quick questions that I want to ask just so I get my bearings since I wasn't able. to go down there and look. Is there parking up on Pawnee? Hoffman: Pawnee? Lash: Or on Mohawk? Mohawk has just been... Hoffman: Mohawk contains no parking. . Pawnee farther up, I'm not sure if that's signed or not. I believe it may be. Schroers: Most of those roads in there are really pretty narrow. ....."t Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 11 ,.... Lash: They're all so narrow that I just can't see putting anything on there. And then this other area further north, is that closer to the dock than what we have? Hoffman: Depending on where you install the parking there, it could be closer to the dock by some certain amount of feet. Lash: And I'm assuming from the map that there's no parking on either side of Lotus Trail? Hoffman: Correct. Schroers: Do any of the other commissioners have any specific thoughts regarding this issue? Erickson: Just to reassure the residents a little bit. If you didn't, weren't already aware of this. We're also the Tree Board for Chanhassen so we spend a fair amount of time talking about saving trees and putting trees up so your concern really hits home with us about the trees so we want to make sure that, like Larry said. The City Engineer's know for sure that the trees aren't going to come out when the parking is widened a little bit. Keith Gunderson: At the start of all my paperwork here is, I asked where the dock is going to stay. Is it in the location where it's going to be ~from now on? Or is it going to go closer to the beach? Hoffman: The current location of the dock is where it will stay. Keith Gunderson: Going to stay, okay. Resident: Was that the original proposed site? Hoffman: A.s shown on the map. Resident: The one that we all voted on. I don't think that was the proposed site is where you have it right now. Down by the old beach, just a little ways away from it. Somehow it ended up way at the other end. Hoffman: The master plan was developed off of the neighborhood meetings and then recommendation by the Park Commission and it shows the canoe rack is located here and the fishing dock is located here. Those are currently where those two facilities exist. Schroers: And they exist where we had wanted them? Hoffman: Correct. There certainly may have been discussion about other locations at, the site. I have no reason to believe that it was shifted for some reason in final development anyway. Resident: When it's installed, is it something that's removed each year? ,.... Hoffman: Correct. Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 12 Resident: So when the maintenance people go to reinstall it, how do they know where it's supposed to go? Do they look at it. ...." Hoffman: They'd know where it was from the previous year. Resident: ...never.stayed in the same spot, okay? I mean does it matter if it's 10 feet one way: or the other? Well if you're voting on parking and all that. I mean this original spot it was supposed to be in that we voted 2 years ago Schroers: Resident: .wasn't the when. . . Keith Gunderson: It was supposed to go right next to the mini-beach. Resident: This was not the original spot. I don't know... Roger Byrne: We were supposed to have a Satellite down there too. We never did get that. I don't know what happened to that. .Resident: Somebody shifted here from the original plan. You know like I said, I don't know. hOw. long it's been or I don't think it's been very long but this is not the original plan that we all voted on and we came here for and they were going to. Schroers: You're saying that this was 2 years ago? Resident: Well 3. 3 years ago. -' Schroers: Okay, I've been here that long and part of the thing is,.when we make our recommendations and then it goes, the job gets out and the actual contracting takes place. Like Todd stated previously, the proximity to the lake made it not suitable for putting another portable toilet there. It was too close to the lake. Some of these changes that occured during the development, happen after they leave here and they're due to a variety of things. Usually it's not something that really greatly alters the plan a lot. It may move the dock a little bit one way or the other but if it was changed from original, there was a reason for that. Roger Byrne: ...the reason for the Satellite was, everybody was whizzing in the weeds down there so,; you're worried about the Satellite tipping over, well they don't even have to tip it over because everybody's going on the ground already. Same thing. So why not take a chance with a Satellite. Lash: They don't have to tip it over but trust me, they do tip it over. Roger 8Y1"ne: I know but even if they don't, everybody's going on the ground anyway...so what are you going to do? Resident: Why can't you take the dock and put it down at the nice beach, at the nice public beach that you have down there? There's a spot right there that there's no swimming there... You have 4 parking spots up there and you could have a Satellite. Why does that dock have to be down at the...beach that car't facilitate, can't handle it? ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 13 ". Lash: I don't imagine it does have to be down there. I thought this was, my impression was that you people were the ones that wanted it. Roger Byrne: Well we did but we also wanted it with the Satellite and with the other stuff that we were going to have. But then all of a sudden, one thing gets put in and everything else gets left out. That just doesn't work out. It doesn't seem right. Resident: And you're not facilitating us. We don't need parking spots. We live there. Obviously you want to facilitate other people. So when you say, you thought that's what we wanted, well you're not dealing with we. Yo~'re dealing with the public... As far as I'm concerned, it should go to the big, beautiful beach that we have down on the south end or put it where your public access is. Schroers: I was at that meeting and several of the residents from Carver Beach told us that that is where they always have fished. Fishing was good there and they liked,to fish there and that is why we put the dock there and it wasn't anybody else. It was people who lived right in that area told us that. Roger Byrne: Right, but we were also told we'd get the Satellite too... Then you don't, and then you've got a reason why. Because it might tip over. I don't know why you put them trash cans but it just goes on and on and on and on and we're really frustrated. ~Schroers: There isn't a why... Roger Byrne: ...come down and look at it. Where these engineers went to school to say that that was "the best place to put in parking. Sure, best place if you're looking at the people that don't have to look at the parking. I'm sure you'd get less heat there but environmentally, for that... It's not the best place. I don't care. I didn't even go to engineering school and I can figure that out. It's common sense. All you've got to do is look at it. I know what these people are doing. All they're worr ied about i's who's goi ng to cry because they have to look at this car parked out in front of their house. Well, put them here, nobody's going to have to look at it. So let's just go on from there. You people just keep doing the same thing over and over. You know what you're doing, why do you do it? Why do you keep doing it and then sit there and say, well this. is the 'best from safety. From this and from that. I tried to get something for that park...people down there and all you people do is give us the run around. Bad plan. Bad ideas. When you do give us ' something, you take half of it back and leave the crummy stuff down... I'm sorry. I'm sorry, but ttris really frustrates us. It's a great park. It's a beautiful park and people could use that park. I've been telling you people that and you just. Hoffman: To respond to the issue of the Satellite. I believe at the time that it was reviewed that it was the City's intention to install that Satellite there because there was not a concern or an ordinance in place restricting the installatin of Satellites within that proximity of the lake. After the faGt, after that time, there was an ordinance passed and ~approved by the City of Chanhassen restricting the distance from a lake for the installation of a portable restroom. Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 14 Schroers: Okay and as we have it right now, we can't meet those requirements anywhere in that area. The entire area is too close to the lake to install. Okay, there's a regulation. ......" Roger Byrne: ...if you can't put the Satellite in, how can you encourage people to come down there by putting up the dock and putting up the canoe racks and doing all the other stuff there? If they're just going to be going in the weeds all the time like they were before. It's like walking on the deck and there's guys standing there whizzing in the weeds. You wouldn't want it out in front of your house would you? I don't mind people using it but you know, it'~ either the dogs or the guys or there was a gal off a pontoon boat went over there the other day. I mean I'm standing up there on the deck. Schroers: I guess that's something that we don't have control over. We'd like to think that people would have a little more, what's the right word? A little more discretion but unfortunately that's not under our control. I apologize for all these frustrations but there are a lot of issues to deal with here. I think that in general, my opinion is that the area has gotten better and we'll continue to work at it to t~y to make it better still. I don't see why we can't have a garbage can there. We should have a trash container there and we will ask in our recommendation that one gets placed there. We can't put in a Satellite if there's an ordinance against it. I mean we just can't do it and it's not a perfect world. I'm sorry. Lash: Were there other things that you thought were going in that have not gone in yet? --' Roger Byrne: Well I thought there was going go be a path put in there. That never materialized. Erickson: Part of that trail system? Or just a path? Roger 8yrne: No, they were talking about wood chips and stuff. Somebody came through about 10 years ago, the Boy Scouts were down there and cleaned it out and put some wood,chips in but it's got grown over. You can't hardly get down there... Lash: Are there benches OT picnic tables or an}~thi ng Ii ke that there? Roger Byrne: Well they were talking about picnic tables too. but that never did materialize. Schroers: Okay well, I think at this point we're kind of whipping a dead horse because there's not a whole lot we can do about some of those thing at this point. It's hard to remember exactly but we at one point were considering installing a limestone path from the north to the south. What happened with that? Hoffman: The trailway which exists there is over grown. It's used by some people in the area. The tree cutting which took place blocked the trail for a period of time. I would recommend that tree trimming and clearing of the area be the best solution. I'm not sure that installing Class V aggregate in that area would make it any more pleasant of a trail or ...,., Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 15 ,...... useable. The packed black dirt which currently exists is quite useable. It just could use a clearing out. schroers: Okay, I think that we have discussed this issue before and decided that just periodic clearing of that trail would be better than going in and trying to build a formal aggregate trail in there. Lash: I think when we looked at that there were a lot of areas that we thought would be wash outs didn't we? With wood chips or anything there. Schroers: Yeah. We thought we would have a problem with either wood chips or limestone and that the anticipated use would not justify the cost in paving it so we just thought that we would use volunteer groups. Scout projects and that sort of thing to try and keep the area clear so that there was a walking path. Hoffman: In closing, I would encourage that the residents that are in that area, if they notice things which are deficient or which need attention, simply to call the department and we will take every measure to respond to their reqttesL Schroers: Okay, thanks. Anything more from any of the Commissioners on this? Okay. I would like to ask for a recommendation then that would include paying special attention and special care as to not damage trees and also to ask for proper waste receptacles in the area along with the ~normal recommendation. Lash: Would we li ke to possibly re-evaluate the number of spots...? Schroers: It seemed like the area, the idea that I'm getting is that the mental picture we're receiving of this is a lot bigger program than it actually is going to be. I think that what we intend to do is going to be really hardly noticeable. All we wanted to do was e~pand the shoulder a little bit for that distance. Remove the no parking signs in that area so that people wouldn't be ticketed for parking there and that's basically it. We're not going into a great big elaborate thing here. I think that to, it's not going to make a difference if there's 3 spots or if there's 4. Andrews: I have a question or comment and that would be, by putting in an aggregate or a Class V or whatever, are we then going to be, have this brought back to us with a request for paving and a path so it be further accessible? Are we really solving a problem or just starting to scratch the surface? Schroers: We certainly wouldn't be paving that unless the road was paved. The road itself was gravel and wewouldn't be paving a little parking area on a gravel road. Andrews: Does the Federal law state anything about what'd be require as far as a base goes? ~Hoffman: It'states make reasonable access and again it does not define what reasonable is. And Jan was co~rect, under 3% of persons labeled with disabled are in wheelchairs. Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 16 Schroers: Okay. Is anyone ready to make a recommendation? If not, then I will. I'm going to recomme,nd that the City Council, or that we recommend to City Council 3 parking spots with 1 being designated or assigned as a handicap parking spot. That we are also going to ask that when this is facilitated, that the Planning and Engineering take a very close and cal"eful look to insure that there is no damage done to any existing trees in the area. And that also upon completion we would like to have proper waste receptacles at that location. The parking is to be fac,ilitated by construction of a widened shoulder for a distance of 60 feet on the south side of Lotus Trail as depicted on the attached diagram. That is my recommendation. Do I have a second? ......" Erickson: You said 3 spots Larry. Did that include the handicap spot? Schroers: Yeah, 3 spots includes the handicap right? Hoffman: The recommendation on the floor this evening is for four stalls with one being a handicap. Erickson: One of those being a handicap. Schroers: Okay, I stand corrected. There will be three designated parking spots and one additional spot designated as handicap fol" a total of 4. But it will still, they will all be within that 60 foot distance on the south side of Lotus Trail. Koubsky: I think we can put the garbage can at the earliest convenience ~ instead of at the completion of the project. Schroers: Okay, well that's something. I don't even think that that has to be on the recommendation. We can just ask staff to request maintenance to get a receptacle down there. Okay, now do we have a second? Kousky: I'll second. Schroers moved, Koubsky seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the City Council approve the construction and signage of four parallel parking spaces within the 60 feet on the south side of Lotus Trail for Carver Beach Park; one of the four for persons with disabilities, as specified and shown on the attached maps; and that Planning and Engineering take a very close and careful look to insure that there is no damage done to any existing trees in the area" All voted in favor except Lash who opposed and Andrews who abstained. The motion carried with a vote of 4 to 2. Andrews: I 'm goins to abstain. 'I have to see that site better before I can make a decision. Lash: I'd be interested in getting more information on the other, further .north location. Schroers: Okay, what do we have? Hoffman: A carried motion with 4 votes. ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 17 ,.... Schroers: in this. Okay. "Thank you very much for coming in and for your interest Okay, let us move on. Lash: Before we move on can we...signs designated. To let people know that it's only open until 10:00 like the rest of the parks. Koubsky: Parking hours? Schroers: Do we have those signs available Todd? Hoffman: Yes. They will be incorporated. We intend to do a very thorough job in signing that so it is clear where the parking begins and where it ends and the inclusion of park hours on those signs or on a separate sign can be accommodated. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS ON MOSQUITO CONTROL: A. ERIC RIVKIN. RESIDENT. B. ROSS GREEN. METROPOLITAN MOSQUITO CONTROL. Public Present: Name Address Ross Green (MMCD) 2380 Wycliff St., St. Paul ,....Dave Neitzel (MMCD) 2380 Wycliff St., St. Paul Renee Wagner (MMCD) 2380 Wycliff St., St. Paul John Thompson (MMCD) 6100 Sunny Road, Minnetonka Susan Palcheck (MMCD) 2380 Wycliff St., St. Paul Ernest Wermerskircher (MMCD) 7757 Valley Drive, J<>rdan Harold Trende (Carver Co. Comm) 9010 Co. Rd. 140, Cologne Al Klingelhutz (Carver Co. Comm) 8600 Great Plai:n;s Blvd., Chanhassen .-t"e 5e:x/9A1 &zI1).e1~ "~#A ~t:/~,.t-' #~~ ,..e?#& . Hoffman: We'll take a couple minutes to set up and then we'll get rolling from there. Ross Green: Okay, thank you. My name is Ross Green. I'm a Public Information Officer for the Metropolitan Mosquito Control District. At this time I'd like to introduce some of the people that came with us just for in terms of questions that may be asked. Just so you know who these " people are. In the back is Ernie Wermerskirchen who is the supervisor in the Scott/Carver Operating Division of the Mosquito Control District. Sitting next to him is Dr. Susan palchick who is the Aedes Program Manager for the Metropolitan Mosquito Control District. In front of Ernie is Dave Neitzel who is the program leader for the LaCrosse Encephalitis Prevention Program and the Lyme Ticks Surveillence Program. Sitting next to Dave is Renee Wagner who is a foreman in the Chanhassen area for the Scott/Carver Operating Division. And next to her is John Thompson who is our Data Processing Manager, who happens to live near the area and he,was with us this afternoon, or this evening. So if you have some questions, at least you know who we are and you can address those that way. I'd like to ".....basicallygive you, I'll be very brief if I can, about 15 minutes to go through what mosquitoes and their control is all about here in Chanhassen. I'll try to address specifically the park issues as to what our involvement Park and RecCommission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 18 is there and we'll go from there. Can I talk from here? Okay, can you all see that? Otherwise we can dim the lights or something if possible. Oh, there we go. Alright. Briefly, the Mosquito Control District is a 7 county cooperative governmental agency. We're governed by a 17 member Board of Commissioners. You may know that Commissioner Trende is one of the members on the Carver Soard. Appointed from the Carver Board to sit on our commission and then there are County Commissioners from each of the 7 counties that make up the Metropolitan Mosquito Control Commission. We operate in controlling mosquitoes in about 3,000 square miles so it does include the eastern half of Carver County. Just to move on to a little bit of biology. I think you need to know a little bit about the mosquito before we can talk a little bit about control and I'll try to be brief about this. We have about 50 different varieties of mosquitoes in the Midwest, and in particular Twin Cities and there's only about 10 that actually bite human beings. A mosquito. our number one pest mosquito is a little creature called an Ades Vexan. That's where yoU heard the name Ades PTOgram Leader. In fact about maybe 7 or 8 out of 10 times you~re bit. it's this one mosquito that does that. We have about 7 or S others that develop in the early spring and live all summer long that are involved with biting too. A mosquito spends about a week of it's life in the water and it spends about another 2 to 4 weeks, the main pest mosquitoes, biting people.' Living in the air. They start out as eggs and they actually lay their eggs on moister, dry depressions and I'll show you where these places are. They over winter iT! an egg form. It's kind of an egg hibernation and these eggs left where they're deposited, if they're dry, they can maybe last up to maybe 5 years or better without going bad. And that was very wel~ indicated here through the drought years and finally when we did get the rain back in 1990. But anyway, in the springtime, the snow melts and spring rain. The eggs hatch into little creatures called larvae. They spend about a week of their life in this stage. Interesting to note" I'd like you to note that during this stage, there's a natural growth that takes place and there's a natural hormone. It's a juvenile hormone that is naturally, that naturally occurs in the mosquito. As it grows and it actually sheds it's skin before it turns into the next stage we call a pupa but I'd like you to note that because one of the control materials that we use is a growth hormone mimic. It's a biological approach to mosquito control and it mimics this stage. This is a pupa or coccoon like stage that's involved and it transforms itself into an adult mosquito and then emerges as an adult. It mates. Then it desires for blood. The blood is a protein that's used for the nourishment of her eggs and there can be up to about 200-250 eggs per female and she can bite you more than once if she ,survives. These mosquitoes can fly at least 1 to 3 miles a night. Maybe up to 35 miles and they get to 50 miles from their breeding areas. One of the reasons why our district is as large as it is. Basically what we have are these pothole depressions and breeding areas that are dry most of the time. Wet some of the time wher~ they reseed and what happens when it rains, they fill up. The mosquitoes hatch out basically and develop. Emerge from the water and then they leave and they can ,do their flight and they occupy the daytime areas in what we call daytime resting areas or harborage areas. And they're just like little vampires. They come out at night looking for blood. That type of situation. Or on overcast days whn people are near, that type of thing. Taid ng a look, we've documented nearly 60,000 breeding places in the Twin Cities metro area and 1.11 give you some ~xamples of what they are and you may recognize some of these we ..." --" ""'-'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 19 ,.... find in park areas. We find them in other areas allover the whole land is dotted with these breeding sites where mosquitoes develop. But the idea is when it's dry, it looks like you saw there. And then when it's wet...and a few days after that it dries up. New mosquitoes come in. Lay their eggs there. Wait for another rainfall. Then we need to get another brood or population of mosquitoes that develop. On a normal year we get about 6 broods of mosquitoes a year. In the last couple of years we've had up to 12 or 13 broods of mosquitoes which is abnormal and then during the drought years we had very few. Other examples are'runoff into ditches that you see here. Very shallow water we're looking at. Less than 2 feet deep most often. In the rural areas we have rain pools where the cattle will walk around. They'll take drinks. They'll leave their hoof prints and it's maybe a little difficult to see but those dots are larvae and there can be up to 1,000 larvae per hoof print. Other examples are spring mosquito sites. These are rain pools. Woodland pools that are wet generally in the springtime and they dry up during the summer but they do produce a number of mosquitoes that live all summer long. This is a very'prolific type of breeding area. This is wild hay or canary grass. Reed such type of vegetation and dries up rather rapidly but a very prolific breeding area and many of them you'll recognize. Another example of that, between the fence and the cattails out there. Very prolific in terms of mosquito development. This type of habitat produces less mosquitoes. Where you see the cattails there and the rather, maybe 4 feet of water better. Not a real good breeding habitat but in the shallow marshes we may find some development in a site like that. Again, in the very shallow 6 to 12 inches "-"of water towards where that tree is that you see there, but when you get out towards the lake out there, very few mosquitoes, if any out there. So mosquitoes are not developing in the streams, lakes, or rivers but rather the marsh areas and these are sometimes called floodplain mosquitoes. Meaning that when the rivers and creeks overflow their banks, we have a number of breeding areas where the water is after the water has receeded back into the channels. We have all this floodplain that will produce tremendous numbers of mosquitoes. Housing developments that go in. I think you're probably well aware, I know we built a house, my own family back in '86 and we have a marsh area behind our house and it's very expensive to build in these areas. aut one of the things to consider is that many of these are mosquito producers that are 90ing to annoy people greatly. This is the logo of the equipment. You've probably seen that. When we get anywhere from an inch to 2 inches of rain, this produces a brood of mosquitoes and we have like 75 rain gauges throughout the Twin Cities that moniter rainfall. We operate from section maps where one of the things we do in the fall and the winter is to update these maps. And so this gives us very detailed information about the wetlands~ breeding sites that we have where mosquitoes develop and we keep very accurate and meticulous records of everything we do out there in the environment to where these breeding areas are. One way of doing surveillence is by giving you an example of how prolific mosquitoes are. This is one of these breeding site areas. He's looking into a little thing called a dipper. When we find an area the size of a football field that has water in it. With shallow water that will stay for about 10 to 15 days and every time we dip, we find 5 littlemosquitoe larvae developing in there and we call that an average of 5 per dip. That translates into about 2 1/2 million ~mosquitoes if it's left uncontrolled. That's an average. For adult ,mosquitoes, there are New Jersey Light Traps. This is not too dissimilar Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 20 from a bug zapper but it does collect mosquitoes. One way of monitoring adult mosquito popul~tions. . One of the things that we do to monitor mosquitoes. We put the district on a 4 mile, a grid. This is Renee here taking a collection in one of the harborage areas and so we have about 200 locations of which we're doing about 100 locations this year because of budget cutbacks and those kinds of things. But we take actually a 2 minute collection to determine what the population of adult mosquitoes are and we do that allover the Twin Cities area. Every 4 miles there's a grid and within that 4 miles we try to locate the most prolific area where we find the greatest numbers of adult mosquitoes that are there. Then we plot all that information. When our anamologists has had a look at it, sorted them, find out what kind they are and what densities they're in, we plot those on a map and this is an example of one of those maps. This is ,a few years back but it does indicate what we see. This is the whole Twin Cities and on June 18th here, the ranges was 5 mosquitoes. Where you see lor 2 lines up to about 91 mosquitoes where you see up in the upper right hand corner of that map and we have, we keep these like twice a week so it gives us an indication of where the adult mosquito populations are. You can control mosquitoes one or two ways primarily and that is one, while they~re in the water and two, while they're up flying. The direction and emphasis of the Mosquito Control District program is to control the mosquito while it's in the water and that's known as larval control. What we are using at the present time are two materials. Biologically derived materials. One is called Methoprine. The brand name is called Altocide. It's the Insect Growth Hormone mimic that I talked about earlier. And the other one is a natural soil bacteria called BTI. That's short for basilios... I think you understand why we call it BTI. But it's a natural soil bacteria that is very specific for controlling mosquitoes and very much different than the conventional pesticides that have been used iri years past and are still in use allover the country. So the material methoprine that I eluded to here, it's supplied in a number of different forms. Primarily one that most people are familiar with are the briquettes that will last 150 days in water and that's in essence a mosquito season. This can also be used in a sand formulatioD which can last anywhere from 4 to 5, up to 20 days. There's different formulations that can be used. And then there's also a liquid application that can be done also but primarily much of what we do between March and June have to do with applying the briquettes and this is a one time tr'eatment for these breeding areas for the summer. And so what happens basically, if it's dry or wet, we do know that these produce mosquitoes. We've had histor'ical data to refer to that and what happens basically when it'rains, the sites fill up with water. Mosquito eggs hatch into larvae. The little bits of material break off into the water and form a concentration that's about 1 to 2 parts per billion that affect the mosquito biologically. And it affects the pupa stage where the mosquito actually dies of a confusion. A physiological confusion. Biologically it doesn't develop properly and so it never leaves the water. One of the benefits to this is that, if you relate it to other types of insecticides, is that it allows the mosquito to go through it's water stage and therefore any other creatues. Maybe a duck would come in or whatever it might be to feed on those creatues, they can do that without any hassle or without any problem to that creature. We do apply, as I mentioned, the sand materials and the use of BTI with the use of a helicopter. When the sites are larger than 3 acres, this is what we use. It's a more temporary type of arrangement in terms of treatments but we do ...."I -' ...,,;tI ~park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 21 use helicopters and these pilots have, most of them have 10-12-15 years experience flying and these are known locations that are treated once we find mosquitoes there. The other aspect is adult mosquito control and we do adult mosquito control primarily in park and r~creation, heavy used park and recreation areas and for civic events and functions that go on in tpe communities. One other purpose for our spraying for mosquitoes is also for disease prevention and I think that's something that you're probably all concerned with down here in Chanhassen. Inasmuch as there are at least 5 locations in Chanhassen that, where LaCrosse Encephalitis has been a probl,em and we have that mos~uito here called an Aedes triseriatus that develop in the tree holes and artificial containers and the habitat that exists in not only Chanhassen but basically the southern part of our district. So I'll discuss that a little bit later but nonetheless, the adult mosquito control is involved with 2 different operations. One is called cold fogging, which simply, that's just simply what it means. It's a cold mist that's sprayed from a truck mounted unit and the material that's used is called resmethrin and I'll explain that in a minute. And the other operation is called backpacking with permethrin. It's a similar material. It is applied with a backpack or a backpack mounted to an all terrain vehicle. Both of these materials, and that's applied to the harborage areas and I'll show you that in just a minute. These two materials are called synthetic pyrethroid materials. In their natural form they would be called pyrethrum or pyrethrins and they are basically, those ~natural materials. These are synthesized materials in a lab but very , similar chemically and the natural materials are related to the extract from the chrysanthemum flowers so it's a botanical type of insecticide that has a very low...toxicity in terms of when we apply this to vegetation for treatment of mosquitoes. Very effective on mosquitoes however. Cold fogging, this is one of our fogger units on the back of a truck. We primarily, we're doing less and less of this type of operation each year. As we are able to reach more breeding areas with the resources we have available, there will be less of a need to do adult mosquito control but as it is now, there are extenuating circumstances in terms of invasion from mosquitoes or mosquitoes that get away from us as a result of inclement weather where the helicopters are not able to get to all the breeding areas. There's still rationale for using the adulticides to control mosquitoes. Primarily this cold fogging happens in the evening time around sundown for a couple of hours. And again, most of that is for park and recreation areas to reduce the population so that people can enjoy themselves for the weekend or for an event. That type of situation. We also, another operation is involved with backpacking. This is an all terrain vehicle where we've applied permethrin which has a risidual capacity. We actually apply it to the vegetation as a barrier type treatment and it will last, if it's in a shaded area, will last up to about 10 days. If it's in the sunlight, it may break down to anywhere between 1 and 3 days. But it provides kind of a preventive treatment and as the mosquitoes inhabit or move from one harborage area to another, as they move through the vegetation and they come in contact with it, the mosquito populations are bled down. So this is kind of a preventive approach and we again, apply those to the park and rec areas to decrease those populations ~of mosquitoes. During the daytime these are applied. The fogging would happen then, say for example on a 4th of July, if I could give you an example of how we would do an adulticiding program. If there were mosquitoes there, and this is all based on surveillence. Whether there's Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23,1992 -Page 22 mosquitoes there or not. If there's not mosquitoes there, we're not going to go and spray. I think that needs to be understood. But secondly, what we would do, about 3 or 4 days previous to an event, we would come in and spray the harbor.age areas for adult mosquitoes. Then we would come back in the night before the event and determine whether the mosquito populations were sufficient to cause annoyance or problems. Then, if necessary, and the conditions were proper to spray with the cold fog unit, this unit that you see back here, then we would do that to knock down those populations so that people could enjoy the event at that point. I'll briefly go through this. The cattail mosquito control program actually starts in the spring. There's one very vicious biting mosquito. Probably the most vicious biting mosquito and it will probably become ~vident in some areas right now. It has a very different life style than a majority of mosquitoes that bite us but they're going to be evident this year. More evident this year because of the vexan population being down because of the dry weather and the controls that we've applied already. But these mosquitoes actually develop in .the roots of some portions of some cattail Marshes. And that program starts early in the spring by applying these briquettes to these known areas that produce this mosquito and there's extensive surveillence that's done by this particular unit that we have for these treatments. And one of the reasons is because a lot of these are bogs and if you've ever been in a bog, if you go through a bog, you can go down 10-20 feet or something so we apply them in the spring. Or I should say late ,winter so that it presents less of a problem to our employees in terms of treatment. We also have a biting gnat or blackfly control program which is primarily a larval control program. The species of gnats we have, either develop in the small streams that are around the Twin Cities area or they're in the large rivers as you see here. This is the Coon Rapids dam and one of the more prolific areas for gnat development. What you're seeing here is the treatment and again the materials we use for blackfly control is the same for mosquitoes only it's in a,liquid form. It's the BTI that we use. And we work very closely with the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources in securing permits and also doing environmental studies on the effect of this material on the bio that's in the river and factors involved that way. To give you an idea. This is a line, one of these. They're nylon rope if you will. About a 6 inch section there and what you're seeing there isa griat larvae and they're very prolific and come out of the fast moving. They have a very different habitat than mosquitoes. Very fast moving, highly oxygenated water and this is what gnats look like when they're in the larval form. Thank goodness they're not that big but they do take a chunk out of you and they use blood for the same reasons mosquitoes do and we also monitor the adult populations of gnats and this gives you an indication of what the gnat population looked like or how we attract those adult populations. LaCrosse encephalitis I eluded to a little bit ear~ier. LaCrosse encephalitis is primarily a children's disease. It affects most often children and it's carried by a mosquito called the Aedes triseriatus and that particular Mosquito is not a long distance flier. As a matter of fact it doesn't fly any further than about one mile 'and perfersto'be around wooded, shaded areas. This disease is able to survive the winter in the egg stage because it is an aedes mosquito. It actualli lays it's eggs on the dry areas or moist areas of the inside of a tire or container or in a tree hole which will get wet really along the bark. It prefers to feed of small mammals such as rodents that,You see here and also mice and shrews and that type of thing. This is ..."" ...." -"" ~Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 23 a map of the district and you can see where the red dots are. These are known case areas for LaCrosse encephalitis in the district. We work very closely with Minnesota Department of Health in this regard and you can see around the Lake Minnetonka area that it does exte~d into the Carver area where most of those cases have been found in the Metropolitan Mosquito Control District. Primarily what we're looking at in terms of tree hole habitat are the maple basswood type forests where there are multi-stem trees that you see here and many times you find a tree hole and we've used the turkey baster here OT syringe to take a sample out of that and put it into a container and all those little white dots are the Aedes triseriatus larvae. And what we do then, when we identify these areas, and I think, I know that Chanhassen has enacted an ordinance involved with making it against the law to or a part of an ordinance that makes it against the law to produce a habitat that ~ill produce the Aedes triceriatur mosquito .hd I think that's excellent. When we find these areas, we either educate the public on how to take care of those tree holes. The material you see there i$ an insulation type material. It's called rock wool and it's different than cement in that it's somewhat flexible and is able to expand with the tree as it grows to provide a greater length of time from filling it at another time. And obviously I mentioned the artificial containers. The tires that are imported and we monitor these locations. All the tire recycling centers and dumps and those kinds of things and we again, one of the main approaches to control here is education of the public and we hit ~very heavily on that. What you're seeing here, this is Dave doing a " surveillence with one of his aspirators here. Checking the adult population but basically we're looking at pollution here is what it is. Just to back up a little bit here on this. So one of the things we do, we monitor those adult populations and especially in the Chanhassen area because there are a number of cases. Just FYI, for your information, we will be doing some treatments in the Chanhassen area this coming week because we have found populations of adult .triseriatus mosquitoes in our collections. That's not to say that there's any LaCrosse encephalitis there but we are taking measures to reduce that population so that mosquito does not become more prolific and to control that. Western encephalitis is another disease that has a potential here and on various years, especially very wet years and all of the, I might add too that with the LaCrosse encephalitis program and with the Western encephalitis program, that all of the Metropolitan Mosquito Control .District does get involved in the control and involved with both these diseases and how they're remedied in terms of knocking off the adult populations or the populations of mosquitoes. I neglected to tell you that we're also working with the Minnesota Pollution Control Agency. They are providing funding or have provided funding over the last few years to help clean up the tires and just this year alone we've cleaned up nearly 22,000 tires in the district. And to supplement that, we've got another 30,000 that we've taken care in the last 2 yea~s previous to that. And so we work very heavily to see that there's just an absolute minimum potential, if at all, for a mosquito born disease to take place in the district, and especially in this area. One of the most common diseases that we have to contend with obviously is not with humans but with the dog heartworm. That is, what you're seeing here is a relatively recent ".....slide that shows the spread of dog heartworm which is an exclusive mosquito born disease. I don't mean to gross you" out here or anything but this is an electron micrograph of the part of the mosquito and some of the small worms that are being injected into the dog. And after a period of 120 Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 24 .....", days, maybe up to 5 years later, this is one of the hearts that has been taken from a dog that has died and those are the adult worms which have basically clogged up the plumbing so the dog's not able to pump blood. Obviously:, many people will feed their dogs, dog heartworm pills...to control the little'larvae before thEw grow up but they can grow up to be a size of about 1 foot or more and so from a domesticated animal standpoint, again mosquito control is the way to knock down those populations also. Under the program we have is a lyme tick surveillence program. Lyme is the name of a community 'i n Connecticut and what we're, doi ng. the legislature enabled us to do ti~k surveillence here a couple of years back. This is our third year and this is an adult deer tick. There's three different phases. This is a nymph form. You can see, that's a fingernail in the upper left hand corner there on the skin and as a larvae, it's almost undetectable. Most of this phase.of the tick though is a non-infected stage so it's the other ones that do that. So we've been funning surveillence on small mammal trapping. This is a white footed deer mouse and you c~n see on the ears and on the eye, the ticks that have be~n attached. We set out, and this is the adult deer obviously but this could as well be a human being or a large mammal that collects ticks. We have a number of locations, we have about 270 locations through the district where \ we put out these transets and trap small mammals and then when we find these mammals, we then search them for ticks and that information gets sent to the University of Minnesota to be studied and also to the Minnesota Department of Health and also information shared with the Center for Disease Control among other agencies that are involved too. I might note that the cadavers here of the creatures that are caught are also given to the University of Minnesota. I believe it's the Rapture Center, Dave. ....."" Dave Neitzel: Wildlife Rehabilitation. Ross Green: Wildlife Rehabilitation area and they use that for the carrying feeders that they feed it to. $0 they can eat it. So they are recycled in a way too. Also drag sampling is another approach and also examining road kills and I'll let Dave address some other things. This is the budget for the Mosquito Control District for 1992 and you can see how it's broken down into the various programs. Do any of you want to add anything to this presentation? MMCD. Schroers: What is the total dollaf' amount to that budget? Ross Green: It's $9.9 million. $9,946,714.00. Schroers: Where does most of the funding for this? Ross Green: I'm sorry, thank you. It is, it's primarily through property taxation in the 7 counties and HACA cr.edit that is given to the District. Questions. Comments. Schroers: I have a question. I don't know if you're going to address this further down in your presentation or n6i but I think that the major concern hete is going to be what kind of an affect these pesticides have on the environment. A couple of particular questions that I have is, do you have ....."I to have ~ commercial pesticide applicator's license to apply this and is it a restricted use chemical? ,.... Par k and Rec Commission Meeting . June 23., 1992 - Page 25 Ross Green: No. They are not restricted use chemicals. And as an organization we feel compelled, because of the quantity of materials that we do use, we feel we need to have a license and we do have licenses. But many of these materials can be bought over the counter and bought to apply by a homeowner many times so we do have licenses through the State of Minnesota however. The Agricultural Department. Schroers: And is someone going to address the issue of what kind of environmental affect there is as a result of applying these chemicals? Ross Green: These are EPA registered materials that we're using that we apply them according to label and they're designed to be put onto the vegetation at a doseage rate that we comply with. And we have asked, because of some of concern, we have asked. We have a panel called a scientific pure review panel which is composed of a number of experts in their field from toxicologists to behavioral biologists to enamologists to a number of different discliplines. And we have asked the SPRP we call them, scientific pure review planel, to look into, to answer some of the concerns that are involved with the adulticides or the adult mosquito control materials that we use. We have exhausted, I should say, inexhaused material on the larval control materials that we've had. Primarily back in 1987 we have been involved with doing studies on the larval control materials that we have and I brought a number of references so you can have ,-..a look at. They're welcome, if.you want to come and take a look at them, we have an extensive library of information and the studies, the independent studies that have been done. I want to be very clear that these, the SPRP are independent scientists that a~ard grants to these independent contractors to study the most pressing questions that have come up since our environmental impact statement of, well 1977 and then again in 1987 and these are long term studies that are addressing those major concerns. And as I mentioned to you, the primary approach for mosquito control is with the larval control program. That's our direction. And we are using less and less of the adult mosquito control materials. But because of the concerns and the fact that we're still using them, we asked the SPRP to take a look at the use of adulticides as well. But from an adult mosquito control standpoint, we feel that these are the safest materials available for use in controlling mosquitoes in areas. The label states very clearly about residential and park areas. Campsites. They have a ton of different areas where it can be used and that's the way we approach it so from an environmental standpoint, they have a very low mammalial toxicity and that's what we use. Resident: I'd like to ask a question. Are any chemicals used proven to be life threatening? Ross Green: Life threatening? I would hope that no one would drink them. I mean that's one of the things that. Resident: No., after applied. ~Ross Green: Oh, absolute~y not. Absolutely not. These materials. Resident: ...got mosquitoes in... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 26 ....." Ross Green: The Aedes triseriatus mosquito is able to transmit LaCrosse encephalitis which is a severe disease. And I would, if anyone has any specific questions not only about the program but about LaCrosse encephalitis, Dave Neitzel is the expert in the area from our district and can address any questions from that standpoint too. That's why he's with us. Yes sir. Erickson: Maybe you can't answer these and I know they're kind of general, but roughly, how many cases are reported in the 7 county metro of encephalitis caused by mosquitoes or is it just this LaCrosse? Ross Green: Dave, do you want to? Erickson: Presently with the control program. Just rough numbers if you have them. Dave Neitzel: Well prior to the beginning of our LaCrosse encephalitis prevention program and that began in 1987, there was an average of 2 to 3 cases of LaCrosse encephalitis. in the 7 county metroplitan area every year. Since 1989 now, we've had 3 years without a case of LaCrosse encephalitis in the district. That's partially due to the use of adult control materials but it's also due to the public education program that we've conducted and the extensive breeding site removal efforts that we've conducted. Koubsky: Is there any other source of spreading either LaCrosse or Western encephalitis? '""""'" Dave Neitzel: No. LaCrosse encephalitis is transmitted by this one mosquito. This one species of mosquito and Western Equine Encephalitis is transmitted by the OX tarsalios mosquito. \ Koubsky: Is there any other natural way to spread this disease or is the mosquito the sole? Dave Neitzel: No. Yeah, both of these viruses are mosquito transmitted. Erick~on: This may be a real hard question to answer but how many cases would you expect if this program didn't exist? Dave Neitzel: Well it's impossible to speculate. I would at least see the 2 to 3 cases in the 7 county metropolitan Statewide there's roughly 10 cases reported every year and cases reported the last few years outside of our district. southeastern Minnesota along the Mississippi River. think that area every there have Mainly in we'd year. been Schroers:What is your goal or your mission? Is it to totally eradicate the mosquito or is it to control it to tolerable levels? Ross Green: I think we'd like to get the Aedes triseriatus mosquito off the map but as far as the Aedes vexans and the ones that bite, we're talking about a control program and getting it down to a tolerable levels ~ in terms of annoyance but that also affects the general public health. So it's not an eradication program by any stretch of the imagination. It is a ,.... Par k and Rec Commission Meeti ng . June 23, 1992 - Page 27 control program that's directed at the most prolific breeding areas that produce mosquitoes. Schroers: Which mosquito transmits the heartworm and how effective is your program on reducing that risk? Ross Green: There are probably 10 to 13 species of mosquitoes that produce or that can carry dog heartworm. The Aedes vexans is one of them. The spring.variety of mosquitoes which are a or 10 or even more than can carry this disease. S9hroers: And how effective do you think your program is in reducing the risk that a particular animal is going to contract heartworm? Ross Green: Again, I'm not sure of the data from the University of Minnesota. We get a lot of the information from the University of Minnesota on terms of the cases that are reported by the veterinarians around the 7 county area. Some are reported. Some aren't. There's a lot, it's hard to say from that standpoint. We do know that it's an exclusive mosquito born disease however and we do, in terms of our treatments, we're involved with doing pre-treat, post-treat counts. In terms of reducing a population in a certain area for example. If there's a harborage area or particular location. I mentioned to you the harborage collections that ~we're involved with. The light traps. We also run 2 and 5 minute bite counts. They're either slap counts or they're collections that are taken to indicate the number of mosquitoes. We do that before and after to deteTmine how effective we were in that particular area. But again, the adult mosquito control is again a back-up or supplement... (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) Al Klingelhutz: ...have there ever been any cases of encephalitis recorded in the city of Chanhassen? Dave Neitzel: Yes. Since LaCrosse encephalitis was discovered back in 1965, there are 5 confirmed cases from within the borders of Chanhassen. 4 cases near the northern border of the city and 1 kind of in southern Chanhassen. aut remember the map that Ross showed you, there's a big cluster of confirmed case sites around the Lake Minnetonka area and coming down into the Chanhassen area here. Al Klingelhutz: But what has been done in the past 5 yeats to control that mosquito in Chanhassen? Dave Neitzel: Well in Chanhassen specifically, well first of all. The City of Chanhassen passed an ordinance, it's part of your nuisan6e ordinance that prohibits having potential Aedes triseriatus breeding habitat on property. That's helped quite a,bit. We've done extensive surveillence across the city trying to locate neighborhoods with high populations of this mosquito and once we've found those areas, we moved in ~ wi th public education in the form of LaCrosse encephal i tis prevention leaflets. There's a supply in your library here and upstairs also, to kind of educate the public about potential problems in their own back yard. To get them to pick up the water holding containers. We've also removed any Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 28 -' water holding containers that we've come across during our inspections. Tires, buckets and we've filled in tree holes. And we've been able to effectively reduce a lot of these potential problem areas. Reduce the numbers of the mosquito and hopefully that will end up reducing the disease risk also. Resident: Are you finding more breeding sites as the new homes are going into. .. Dave Neitzel: Unfortunately that tends to be the case. Since this mo~quito uses man made containers so much, they usually exist at low levels and most wood lots around the Twin Cities here but when you move, when you get a development into an area, you get a lot of peopl~ going in there. They throw out even just a 12 ounce beverage can makes a great breeding s'ite for these mosquitoes and it's not uncommon to see the numbers go way up. A lot of times before we can get in there .and clean up some of these areas, it's necessary to treat these wood lots with adult mosquito control materials to knock down the populations until we can get in there and clean up, the areas. Resident: Aren't some of these sites... Dav~ Neitzel: Sure. Sure. Obviously we've had to prioritize our surveillence efforts and one of those criterias to look at areas where most of the people are. Start there and work into the more uninhabited areas. -lflii Andrews: I have some questions about the chemicals again. I noticed on one of the slides that the person driving the ATV had a gas mask on as they're driving away from the cameia. I guess my question was, are these chemicals, ~hen they're in a pre-mixed stage at the site or like when you're doing helicopter applications, are they then a higher concentration that would present a problem if there was a spill or problems like that? Ross Green: Yes sir., Two situations. When you're talking about the helicopter, we don't apply adulticides from the helicopter but we do ask our people or recommend that they use a dust mask for the particulate matter that's there when they breathe it in as they load the helicopter because many times they don't turn off the engines because of fuel consumption and it presents very little threat in terms of how they approach the helicopter and training involved. That's ,one aspect. . In terms of the ATV,with the gas mask you see, that's a half mask respirator is what that is. And it's an OSHA regulation for employees. It's part of right to know. It's part of, there is a material on there that are hromatic petroleum solvents that are used in this process. They've identified that as a threshhold limit value on that and because we work in close proximity to the application, these people have it on their backs and they apply close to the vegetation. As they do that, a gust of wind can come back right in the face that close when it comes out of the nozzle and that we've asked them and it's recommended. We've done testing on the outside of whether need to use masks or not. Many times it's borderline in some cases that you need a mask but because it's 'recommended, we do require our employees to wear the half mask respirator. Also goggles, a bump cap ......" and gloves and long sleeve shirts. These are all employee protection situations. We have an internal policy of staying away from people and I""""" Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1~92 - Page 29 obviously on the label it states to stay, because it's toxic to fish. These material. These adult mosquito control materials so we stay away from fish Dearing habitat and so we also have an internal policy of staying away from people too and if anyone's walking, we'll try to stay 100 feet away from them. That doesn't state that on the label but we do stay away from that standpoint. Andrews: Let me rephrase the question or have it clarified a little bit more. when these sprays are emitted, is there a certain distance they must go before they reach a safe concentration or are they safe immediately upon discharge? Ross Green: If there's an insect that comes flying right through where the nozzle is. Andrews: I'm not worried about the insect. I'm worried about the human. Ross Green: Oh. From an overall standpoint, the chances of becoming harmed by it are very minimal but the way we apply it, we stand about 10 feet or less away from the woods itself. It's kind of like painting the fence. We walk along and we apply the material to the vegetation so there's no one there when we're there. And as we notice, as there are people approaching or that type of thing, we'll turn it off. That type of ~thing so there's not that. Andrews: Another question would be. If you were to adopt new chemicals, I would assume we would be advised on what these chemicals are so that. Ross Green: Absolutely. One of the things I've had a chance to, one of the things we're trying to do is enhance the relationships we have with the communities that we work in and we've already had a meeting with Todd here and the Park and Rec Department. r know there's been some expression of concern by some citizens and also from a notification standpoint and we're trying to work with the city of Chanhassen and your Park Board via Todd as to posting the paiks and to notify Todd when we are going to be in an area so you know what we'ie up to and what we're doing. We want to establish that positive relationship between the cities when we do that. I also have given a presentation to YOUi Safety Commission a couple of years back and have had conversations with Scott Haii, your Public Safety Director and we've enjoyed a very positive relationship with the city of Chanhasseh. We appreciate the coopeiation we've had and we want to eniich that. Koubsky: I have a question. On your mateiial safety data sheet you have two compounds basically. The peimethrin and that's at 57%. Is that 57% solution? Ross Gieen: No. That's a concentrate is what that is and that's diluteq down into the finished spray that's used. \ Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23,1992 - Page 30 .....,; is formulated and how it's applied. It's unfortunate the word xylene itself is there but it's not xylene and as you can see from the documentation that you have before you. Koubsky: Okay, and then your TLV. Is that based on xylene? Ross Green: No, it's based on, those are aromatic petroleum solvents. Mineral spirits. Koubsky: I understand. Ross Green: Yeah, and that's what it is. There's been a threshhold limit value established. I think it says 100 part per million doesn't it? And that's why the use of the, for our employees; that material safety data sheet is for the use by employees to, that's why we ask them to wear a respirator when they work in close proximity to the material. So they're aware of the factors involved. I mean the material itself. Koubsky: It's a mineral spirit then? Ross Green: Yes sir. Koubsky: Now for toxicity you've got on your ad here, that it kills mosquitoes, gnats, biting, non-biting midges, blackflies and other biting flies. It is an insecticide that ki 11 insects? --' Ross Green: Yes sir. And we use it to control mosquitoes. l . Koubsky: Right. But it would kill insects, so bees, spiders. Ross Green: It depends on the doseage rate that it's used at. But the way we apply it is applied to control mosquitoes and tiny flies that are in ,that range. Example, a blackfly for example would take a much greater doseage to control than a mosquito would for example. And we don't spray for blackflies. But that material is designed for use in applying for . different kinds of insects but the way we apply it is for mosquitoes. Koubsky: Okay the does, is that a dose they get when it's in the air or a cont.ct dose when it's on vegetation? Ross Green: Susan, would you want to addre$s the chemical aspects of this thing? Dr. Pelchick can probably shed a little more light onto this and answer your question. Susan Pelchick: I'm not sure I understand the question. Koubsky: Well it is an insecticide. I know the goal here is to kill mosquitoes. I'm just wondering what else it kills and the answer was given, the doses are made to hone in on mosquitoes or I would think mosquito size insects. My question Is, does it kill every mosquito sized insect? Susan Pelchick: Part of it is size dependent and part of it would also be just basic physiology. The permethrin is applied at a tenth of a pound "" ,...... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 31 active ingredient per acre. So part of that is meant to impinge on the vegetation and be contacted by mosquitoes as they rest on the vegetation. So it's bringing in the behavior of the mosquitoes as they move in and out of these resting areas. They'll contact vegetation and contact the insecticide. Koubsky: Okay, then farther up the food chain, any study on effects? What that does to birds or fish or frogs or any other? Susan Pelchick: Not that I'm aware of. Resident: ...it does not kill anything. Bees, frogs, spiders... Koubsky: That's the adult spray they're using? Resident: The adult spray... Schroers: I think I'd like to point out that one reason that we are so particularly concerned about the effects of the chemicals on the ,environment is because it's something that is in such focus cutrently in our entire, in the entire world actually. But Chanhassen seems to have a number of very special people that live here that are real concerned about all of the issues and you can tell from the first item we addressed this ,...., evening that there are a lot of people that are concerned and we want to be as sure as we can be that the chemicals that are going to be used in our city areas safe as can be and used as properly with the right mixing and that sort of thing. I have an applicator's license. A commercial applicator's license myself and I understand that they tell us that they tell us that we can drink a quart of Round-up and it won't hurt us. Well I'm not going to drink a quart of Round-up and I think it's unfortunate that we have to use any kind of chemicals but I also feel that most of the major damage that's been done to the environment was done a long time ago. Before the current chemicals that we have now were being used in proper doseages and proper mixtures so hopefully we're not contributing any more to the deterioration. 'Susan Pelchick: Can I add something along those same lines? There's been some recommendations from some IPM groups in California and what they recommend is basically what we're doing so some of the bad press goes along with some of the, like you said, some of the chemicals that were used before. But the materials that we're using now are the ones that are being recommended by some of the. Schroers: The question that I have, you know you read the label and anybody that has an applicator's license knows that being consistent with I the label is of ultimate importance but the question that I-always have is, who puts the information on this label? Is it the chemical companies or is there a governing agency that oversees what information is put on the label. I mean how do I know that the information that's on the label is totally correct? """'susan pelchick: The labels are composed by the manufacturers, which is unfortunate. But it's under the scrutiny of EPA and then within the different states goes another level of scrutiny. And what we've done in Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 32 .....,I some cases is, like Ross said, was staying away from some of the water areas. We've taken what the label says and put an extra measure of safety on there. Taken it a little bit further than that to take it a little bit further than what the manufacturer says just to be extra sure. And another thing is, we do have a pretty extensive training program for our personnel so it's not just that they get their license and then they're free to just go out and do whatever they want. The full time personnel go through extensive traIning every winter to go over some of the new safety things and some of the other concerns. Environmental concerns and what not and also proper application techniques and concerns. And the seasonal employees also go through several days of training,every year. Koubsky: Just one comment I'd have. You do say that it is EPA approved and you follow the labels but things like 24D are also approved and people follow the labels and residents can put that on their lawn. You know nobody else can in a commercial application. DDT was also approved and was used extensively. Your people use respir4tors and I don't think you have to hide behind that. You know the material safety data sheets says there's some things that people shouldn't be breathing and respirators are a thing to wear to protect long term exposure for that. I would be interested though in, if there was a study. I'm not a chemical engineer by any' sense but I do work with chemicals and has anybody looked at long term effects on the higher order of food chain for some of these compounds? We're spraying them in parks. We'reputting,them in wetlands. The intent is to put them in a very productive organic environments. What is the effect on birds and other higher forms of wildlife? ....", Susan Pelchick: Actually there have been studies on mammalian ,toxicity, which is very, very low for these materials. I don't know that they've looked at it in terms of going up the food chain but they've looked at some pretty high doses and higher than what we're talking about. Andrews: I have one more chemical question here. Are you done? Koubsky: Yeah, I'm done. Andrews: There was a comment made about diluting a chemical. I just heard it briefly mentioned. I was tTying to get an answer to that before. I guess I'm concerned about are compounds brought to the site on a very concentrated format and then diluted at the site or is that done elsewhere? Susan Pelchick: That's all done elsewhere. Most of it's done in one central warehouse and then distributed. Andrews: Obviously my concern's about ~pill~. Susan pelchick: Yeah, it's in the diluted form. Lash: I had a couple of questions too. Just if we take Lake Ann Park as an example. And you said that we had a big public celebration there on the 4th of July and you would spray then. Do yoU also do that periodically or on a regular basis or just when you're called in or how often do ,you do t ha t ? ....." ~Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 33 Ross Green: Well, as I mentioned, because of the surveillence aspect of this, if there are no mosquitoes there, we're not going to spray. If there are mosquitoes and then the operation that I described is what we would do. Again working within the label and how we apply it. Lash: So in the past has it been twice a year? 20 times a year? Ross Green: Oh. It depends on the mosquito populations. It really does. It depends on how bad they are. During the drought years obviously we had very few mosquitoes. When we had high populations where there's 12 broods of mosquitoes, you know we've had a lot of mosquitoes so it's on more of a regular basis that it's done. Because the permethrin is able to last in shaded areas maybe 10 days or so, it would be on a regular basis if the mosquito populations were such where they needed to be brought down. Otherwise if they did not need to be brought down, we wouldn't be doing the spraying. Lash: So it could potentially be done say every 2 weeks? Ross Green: Yes. Lash: Okay. And I heard you say something about some kind of posting or signage. Is that something you're considering doing or is it something you ,...... do a1 ready? Ross Green: No. That's something we are doing. That's one of the things we picked up from. We had an opportunity this year, all the supervisors to contact all the Park and Recreation Directors in all the 7 county metropolitan area. Todd is one of them and we had a meeting with him and discussed our relationships and what we do and how we do it. We invited his input into the whole thing and recommendations and those type of things and we're trying to adhere to those recommendations as we've discussed them. If you want to add anything to that Todd. from our standpoint at this point. Lash: Well and I know Dave's already hit on the food chain a couple of times but I had that in my notes too and I wasn't even thinking of birds. I was thinking of larger mammals like deer or even it does affect the fish population and then that humans turn around and consume. And you said. obviously someone wouldn't drink this chemical but if these animals are ,eating the foliage that's been sprayed and then humans eat the animals. is that something that can affect humans? Ross Green: Part of the reason ~e talk about fish is because they're a cold blooded creature and they're not designed to be applied to fish bearing habitats and so we stay away from that. As far as mammals go, from a mammalial standpoint, as Susan mentioned to you, has very low mammalial toxicity and again, we believe that according to the data that's out there through EPA, and it's not EPA approved. It's EPA registered, not approved. Materials that we're talking about, theadulticides. We believe that these ~are the safest materials to use for adult mosquito control and as I think we've pointed out, especially in the Chanhassen area, that many of the park areas and places where we do spray, there's an interrelationship there between not onlyvexans and spring aedes mosquitoes but also could have an Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 34 ...",;I effect on the triseriatus populations too. So it's the same mateT'ials that are used. The.se synthetic pyrethroids are used for mosquito control no matter what kind of mosquito it is. And so just FYI. Hoffman: Any more commission questions for the folks here from the Mosquito Control. We do need to move forward. Koubsky: The!briquettes are not chemical based? Ross Green: Everything's a chemical. It's a growth hormone mImIC is what it is and they are designed for larval control and they are considered non,... toxic to human beings. Koubsky: Does that have a safety material .data sheet? .Ross Green: Yes it does. I don't have that with me but yes they *11, all of these materials have material safety data sheets, yes. KoubskY:Can you get me a copy? Ross Green: Sure can. In fact, are they in, well Susan's left. But I'll make sure you do get one. In fact Todd I think you have, I think he has this already. I've given a packet of information with the control materials. Material safety data sheets and everything. If he doesn't have that, I will get you a copy. ...." Koubsky: There's one in here but I don't think it's for the briquettes. Ross Green: Yeah r think that's probably, it's probably for the adulticides that you've got. SchT'oers: Okay, well thank you very much for making that presentation. There was a lot of useful information. r have seen personally the mosquito control out in action and from what I've seen, they appear to be very professional and r hope that it is a safe and successful program and something that continues. Hoffman: Chairman Schroers? Prior to moving fOT'ward, I think it would be to everyone's benefit in the loom to discuss why we're here tonight. Obviously we had a very nice presentation on mosquito control in it's entirety. The reason the Park and Recreation Commission is reviewing this is because they operate within Chanhassen city parks. You are the agency or the commission which oversees activities within city parks. The safety of the activities of the Metropolitan Mosquito Control District have been brought into question, not only in our city but in other cities as well. The ~pplication of a pesticide called Punt, which you have the label of, within 100 feet of Lake Ann quickly brought this issue to focus here in the city. This application of Punt was in violation of it's EPA label. Based on this information, the Minnesota Department of Agriculture asked the Court to assess a $1,000.00 civil penalty against the MMCD and ordered them to remedy the violation by appointing the responsible employee to speak on the importance of complying with the Minnesota Pesticide Law. Again, it is the burden of the Park Commission and not only the Commission but the city, as a whole to decide whether or not you would 11 ke the Metropol i tan . .....", ~park and Rec Commission Meeting c June 23, 1992 - Page 35 Mosquito Control District to operate within Lake Ann. To operate within Lake Susan and another side note of interest is that currently they do load their helicopter in a parking lot at Lake Ann. Representatives of MMCD stated they received permission to do so from a maintenance employee. I do not believe that permission is valid and I would like for the Park Commission, the Public Safety Commission and the City Council to review that loading of a helicopter for mosquito control at location at Lake Ann. So again those are the essential issues of why we're here tonight and I just needed to clarify that part prior to Mr. Rivkin making his presentation. Schroers: Okay, thank you. Eric. , Eric Rivkin: Thank you very much. I thank Todd Hoffman and the Park Soard for having me here to make a presentation and enlighten, with an opposing view'. My talk intended to be about 20 minutes so it will be about half as long as Mr. Green's. I wish that I could get as many bites on a fishing line as I get bites from mosquitoes. I don't like them as anybody else. . I'd like to clear the air with some facts about mosquitoes and pesticides that I hope will help you decide what to do about nuisance mosquito controls in Chanhassen parks. And I emphasize the word nuisance mosquito controls. I'm not against LaCrosse encephalitis methods, you know to control that. I do however have some things to say to this couple here who ~are real concerned about it. I would say if it's in my neighborhood, I would do what I could to get the Mosquito control District out there and educate myself to find out where the sources are. Ross Green goes on public television and says, and his pamphlets and says, education is our biggest weapon against LaCrosse encephalitis and I believe that, and he says it's the most effective weapon against it. I und.rstand that the Mosquito District is spraying adulticides for this mosquito. If that's the only way, last resort, fine. If it's treated as a last resort but maybe there's a, try what I can to find. Maybe it's a gutter or a tree hole somewhere in your neighborhood that's causing it but why not get rid of it where the source is. Rather than put up with the potential of having this disease effect you. Resident: ...conscientious about the tree holes and we have cleaned up... unfortunately has not been found and they were still there... Eric Rivkin: Well if that's the last resort, than that's what you've got to do. But it's hard to find a citizen around that knows the difference between a mosquito that can cause a disease and one that can't. One of my neighbors who I live next door to, his grandaugther had LaCrosse Encephalitis and is mentally retarded from it. Once I gave him the brochure that Mr. Green gave me, he then became aware that hey, the mosquito that's in my wetlands right now, the Aedes vexan and the ...mosquito is not the one that caused my daughter to get mental retardation. It's the very rare mosquito. We're talking about 17 cases in the last 10 years in the 7 county metro area and it's not considered a disease control program. If that's the case, then we're spending roughly ,.....$1.66 million dollars a case. That's not cost effective. Also, if you notice, I don't know that Ross really did answer your question about how effective is the heart worm reduction. You really can't answer it but I do know from my research that the general knowledge is that the sheer number Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 36 of mosquitoes left alive after mosquito control is allover with to do their job is enough to keep heartworm at levels, that if mosquito control didn't exist and that's true!n other parts of the country that don't have mosquito control or other cities in Minnesota that don't have mosquito control. Also, as far as antidotal evidence that you've provided us about the recovery of wild~ife after spraying. The findings of Hennepin Parks and hundreds of scientists around .the world unfortunately do not agree with your antidotal data. I will present evidence that shows that to the contrary that pyrethra is one of the most toxic to all kinds of wildlife including insects. ,And with regards to the question about, is there full environmental impact studies of wetland ecosystems? There isn't any. Mammalian studies alone, bird studies alone which are being conducted or have been conducted don't cut it. Dr. Cooper you know is an unfinished, you know Or. Cooper? The one who is the expert on water fowl, here did a study that showed that both growth and breeding habits of mallard ducklings can be affected because of the disruption of the food chain in eliminating mosquito larvae which they eat. If it's available, they'll eat that. If it's midge larvae, they'll eat that but the metheprine does kill non target species other mosquito larvae and midge la~vae is one of them. And he found that, it suggests that it can affect 'that. The study i.sn't completed yet because he hasn't been given funding to complete it. So it's inconclusive but that's where it's at right now. I want to continue with my presentation thank you. I'm here becau~e I don't want what happened to me and my son at Lake Ann Park to ever happen to anyone else. After exhaustive research over the last several years, local environmental groups and I were able to collect enough facts, not feelings, about the safety and effectiveness in the Mosquito Control District program. That number one. It convinced the legislature, State Legislature to pass a law this year authored by Senator Gen Olson to put a cap on the wasteful spending of the MMCD and made all legislators aware of the severe lack of accountability of this agency. Two, it convinced former Senator Don Storm to introduce a biLl last year that tried to stop ~he MMCD from wasting $3.1 million on a new headquarters in St. Paul at a time when budgets were supposed to be cut and there's a 27% unoccupancy rate in St. Paul office space. Three, it convinced Senator Johnston and Representative Kelso of our area to sponsor bills that would forewarn concerned citizens of the health hazards before mosquito pesticides would b,e applied. That's how serious they can affect human health. We're very sure about that. Four, convinced the Minneapolis Par k' Boar k, as of June 10th, to unanimously give strong vocal support... in all 64,000 acres of city land and parks. TheMMCD Director, Robert Shogren infuriated the Park Board by challenging their decision on Channel 9 TV News by calling it a political...of scientifically based decision. He also failed to show up at the Park Board meeting he called for to discuss the issue. And five, it convinced many other Metro area parks, cities and individual citizens to refuse nuisance mosquito control chemicals using rights gt$aranteed under Minnesota Statute 473 which guarantees the right of refusal of a control program.' Not the disease control but the nuisance control. Two City Councils, Maplewood and Forest Lake will go beyond a mere band and consider opting out of the District altogether. Saving their citizens tens of thousands of dollars in property taxes that could be used to solve real problems, not for killing bugs. Programs like the protecting natural resources, improving'parks and recreation, or help for the poor. Citizens in Chanhassen would greatly appreciate that too. The actual literature and scientific references that r refer to in this presentation, ....,.,I ...."", -"'" ,....., Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 37 now I can prepare a copies for you if you like. I do have some fact sheets to hand out at the end of the presentation. And at your request I'll prepare the same thing that I gave Al Singer at the Minneapolis Park Board. So who's buzzing who? What are the hidden facts about Metroplitan Nusiance Mosquito Control? Well, as Ross Green said, their main,mission is to, but it's with a chemical control program. The c6st test...is $9 to $12 million dollars a year. The tax levy for Eastern Carver County, not all of Carver County is involved in the district. Only the eastern half because that's where most the breeding sites are. In 1992 mosquito control, the tax levy is $96,270.00 and that's up from $88,000.00 in 1991, an increase of 8%. Despite deep cuts in government spending elsewhere. I don't know what portion of the levy is Chanhassen's though. The MMCO would like people to know that, believe that nuisance mosquito control is safe. Mosquitoes are not the only victims however.of their chemical warfare program. Some of these victims are citizens effected by pesticide spraing around their neighborhoods and parks. The National Academy of Sciences in Washington reports that at least'15% of our population are chemically hyper sensitive. Many people can or have become seriously ill from exposure to mosquito pesticides in particular. Especially the adulticides the MMCD uses, Punt and Scorge. In spite of increasing health complaints, innocent bystanders in our parks and homes in both Minneapolis and st. Paul especially, because they receive hundreds of calls, are at risk of exposure when these adulticides are sprayed in the air we have to breathe. So what public ,..., health threat really exists here? It's not a disease control program. First it is important to understand that $10 million or whatever worth of pesticides to reduce mosquito nuisance each year does not protect us from mosquito born diseases. It's a selective, localized control mechanism for that. The MMCO allocates only very small portions of their funds for mosquito disease prevention. But they Like to have you believe it's like the reason for the whole program and you have to accept the whole program in order to get disease control. That's not true. You can have zero nuisance mosquito control and 100% disease bearing control and it would cost a fraction of that $10 million. The main education tool of course to control that is through breeding sites like old tires, last resort spraying. The cattail mosquito progTam is the same way. It is set up for nuisance mosquito control. Ask any technical advisory board member on that independent advisory panel that he mentioned and they'll tell you it's not a disease control program for ~estern Encephalisit or Eckland Encephalitis. There's a nuisance control program. Mosquito annoyance in itself is not a public health threat yet the pesticides used to control them seem to be, in 1991 alone hundreds of people either witnessed or were directly exposed to mosquito pesticides and some became ill. All were concerned enough about health effects to call and complain to their Park Boards, the DNR and other agencies because they didn't know who to call. This contrasts with only 17 confirmed cases versus the hundreds of complaints of people getting sick of mosquito born diseases in the last 10 years in the metro area. I am still glad to see someone is removing tires and trying to educate people. I wish they would do more of it. There is a lack of safety assurances here. Citizens ought to feel secure that mosquito pesticides are tested safe and yet there is no evidence that all ingredients have been fully tested safe JI"""" for humans. Their hazardous effects have not been revealed because EPA registration is not a measure of safety. The MMCO boasts that their pesticides have EPA registration and therefore should be presumed safe but on the other hand, according to the U.S. Congressional Testimony by the New Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 38 York state Attorney General, last summer who testified against lawn chemicals, EPA registration is, an established fact, is not to be considered a measure of safety. Because all EPA registration means is that the required tests were conducted so the product will, and I quote, "perform it's intended function without unreasonable adverse effects on the environment". Registration does not require that full environmental or human health effect studies be done. Period. Inert ingredients which may , constitute up to 99.8% of the pesticides, according to the labels, ,have no adequate health testing. The nature of these inerts are protected by trade secrets and need not be disclosed to the EPA or the public. That's why it's very difficult for Ross to answer your questions, well what's in this stuff. The National Coalition Against Hisuse of Pesticides, NCAMP, reported in 1985 that inert ingredients including those found in mosquito abatement pesticides, may actually be as toxic or more so than the active ingredients. Xylene is one of them. What chemicals are used to kill nuisance mosquitoes that can be harmful to humans? The adulticides are the worst. There's your pyrethroids, Punt and Scorch. After they've been hatched and already become a nuisance. This is how they're dealt with. As much as 57% of total acres treated or 226,000 acres of our public parks and neighborhoods in the 7 county metro area were treated in 1990 with these for nuisance mosquitoes, our parks included. The number of acres treated however has significantly decreased to the parks natural areas opting other control programs and all the massive number of complaints. Massive use of these airborntoxics also aggravate air pollution because they contain the aromatic petroleum solvents that you see on the labels, including Scorch. Scorch is that cold fog used in the areas with the highest complaints. It is considered an aerial toxicant. That was a term coined by scientists. It toxifies the air. Anything that breathes' it will be effected adversely to whatever degree that organism is, including people. It's supposed to kill mosquitoes flying in the toxified air but there is no evidence that it actually kills mosquitoes. It chases them away out of the neighborhood and 3 to 6 days, they all come back to normal levels anyway and that data comes right from the MMCD's own charts. punt has permethrin that is spray coated on the vegetation and it's effectiveness is up to 14 days but that's without rain. Now as You can see from Punt's label, it's a very hazardous chemical. Highly toxic to birds, bees and fish. It is8 timeS more effective at killing biological organisms than Malathion, which was recently ,found in April, 1991 to effect our immune systems in the University of Southern California Scientific Findings. I find out after my case file is open to the public, that the,material safety data sheet also in your packet for Punt, reveals that it contains xylene aromatic solvents. Now Ross Green told all of US artd me yesterday, there's little worry about Punt because it's merely dilluted with food grade mineral oil and he says it really doesn't contain xylene. Well, I know better. I take that with a grain of salt. I called and talked for an hour with a toxicologist down in Texas for Russo aio. The producer of Punt and he told me that Punt not only contains 5% xylene bio mass, there may be hundreds of other xylene range, hydrocarbon chemicals ,that make up to 37% of the entire mixture of Punt. Xylene is one of 17 chemicals targeted by the Governor~s Environmental Task Force as 'a source of extremely harmful pollution that must be stopped. Xylene is a none carcenigen. As of June 11th, Punt 57-OS is no longer registered for use in Minnesota and I hope it stays that way. The MMCD is being considered .for exemption from this band until they. use up their stockpile but I understand that this exemption is going to be --' ...."" --' Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 39 ,..... withheld until fUrther investigation into the chemical's potential harmful effects involving the. Environmental Quality Board and the Department of Health. Thi. is the first time these three agencies are going to get together and talk about Punt's effectiveness. Many other mosquito abatement districts in America, as far back as 1982, including Chicago. Districts 10 times the size of OUrS, recognize that adulticides are useless as an effecti~e mosquito control. They say they're not good for people. I'm quoting Dr. Deim who is the head of their district. They say they're not good fOr people, wildlife and beneficial insects. As a result, adulticiding has been severely restricted Or eliminated from our abatement program. And with the MMCD's notify list, I recognize that allergic .reactions can exist from exposure. That's in one of the MMCD's pieces of literature. But it's sUrprisingly contradicts, the MMCD's surprisingly contradicts this by stating adulticides don't pose a threat to human health. I don't understand that. NCAMP reports that quote, "exposure to pyrethroids, resmethrine and permethrin, can result in contact dermititist and asth~a like reactions, including runny nose and eyes." The EPA notes that quote, "people, especially children, with a historY of allergies and asthma appear to be particularly sensitive." Labels also state pyrethrins are extremely toxic to fish, birds, insects and can harm ornamental plants and can peel the paint off your house. I don't think I want to breathe something that could do that. Some pyrethrolds themselves are suspected carcenigens. Aerial toxicants in their dilluted form can drip into homes with open windows. On July 5, 1990 one person and her family in the Malcaster Groveland neighborhood in St. Paul suffered violent reactions "...... from inhalation exposure to Scorch in this manner. She was infuriated when the MMCD told her quote, "we can't spray houses" and the MMCD did not investigate fUrther. The MMCD did send her a fact sheets on Scorch which clearly state quote, "avoid breathing vapor or spray mist. Avoid contact with skin, eyes or clothing. Toxic to birds and fish." Unquote. In her written testimony to the legislatUre, which I had to present myself because she was too sick to come and testify in person. She says, "she feels lucky to be alive after that incident". The MMCD personnel, as you've seen, wear masks to prevent inhaling this toxicant. Punt 57-OS sPrayed illegally in Lake Ann Park in Chanhassen in early June, 1992 caused my son and I to inhale residues resulting in headaches and nausea confirmed by a doctOr the same day from foliage samples taken and witnessed by Pat Kelly, the MDA investigator. This is all in the case file. As you may know, the MMCD was found in violation because they failed to spray according to the label and SPraying it too close to the lake. This was no accident. They have to stay 100 feet away. As a result of this action, their policy now is to go 15% beyond the the label rule and say 150 feet away. The report in the case file says that children were playing in the playground at the beach when the immediate area was sprayed. The applicator stopped, went around the kids, and started again 50 feet away. I bet those children needlessly breathed toxic vapors from the drift as it was sprayed. Their policy of keeping away from people is not followed. I was told by Ross Green, Information DirectOr of the MMCD in a letter which is also in your packet, that Lake Ann Park was always sprayed aCCOrding to the label and usually and it said that it was sprayed 4 times in the summer at 2-3-4 week intervals. Apparently whether the park had a mosquito problem or not. Not ,..... when there were dip counts taken because there weren't any. They just went . in and sPrayed on a schedule. I couldn't find any city employee who had ever requested the Mosquito Control in Lake Ann Park at all. It stemmed Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 40 from just the fact of coming in in 1983 and when they started coming into the district and started spraying every park and if anybody came in and said no, then they'd stop. But until then, there really wasn't any close loop request. Even after being found guilty of this crime, the MMCD has not yet apologized to me nor to the City of Chanhassen where they jeopardized my health and that of other citizens. In August 19,1991~ MMCD staff sprayed the trail area in St. Paul's Crosby Farm Park when school children were present. I believe that was Scorch. The Park's Naturalist with the class refused to lead the children to the toxicified area for fear they would be exposed to the pesticide. She was also angered there were no warnings given to her before she conducted her classes every day and that the MMCD tried to convince her that the chemicals weren't harmful. The children observed quote, and I'm quoting this naturalist. "If it wasn't harmful, then why were the sprayers all wearing masks?" This is an observation of 8 year old children. As of June 17th, all mosquito controls are not banned from this park. And all the st. Paul parks along the Minnesota River. I want to talk about the larvacides for a minute. The STI formulation contains the highest percentage, 99.8% of inert ingredients of the 4 major pesticides the MMCD uses. This is troubling because according to NCAMP, I'm quoting from one of their publications, "it is unclear how much public toxicity (skin sensitivization in animals and eye irritation in animals and people) can be ascribed to these "inert ingredient"." The EPA's major environmental concern about some BT formulations is that they can also kill endangered species of butterflies along with earthworms and bees. According to NCAMP, "the EPA has been critical of an apparent lack of standardization in ST product potency because the percentage of active ingredients cannot ever correspond to the statement on the label." Alticid. The metheprine in there is a chemical. Heroin and cocaine are derived from natural materials but they're considered quite toxic. Metheprine is the same kind of category. It'is derived from natural materials just like they are but it is toxic to living organisms. It has 95% inert ingredients. Metheprine, as you can read it right on the label, says can cause moderate eye irritation. Data is still incomplete about the adverse effects of metheprine. I told you about Dr. Cooper's study. Overdosing'wetlands is a potential problem because according to the MMCD's own reports, undissolved briquettes do accumulate but the adverse effects of this accumula~ion are still not known. So why are we still permitting them to do this if they don't know what the effects of this common occurence is of overdosing. It happened in our wetlands. As some neighbors were calling me up and saying hey, my dog has got these briquettes in his mouth and my kids are going and picking these up, what are these things? I said those are the briquettes from mosquito control. He says the label says you'd better keep them away from children because it's got chemicals in it. And the dogs pick'them up every year. You have to imagine people going, seasonal employees, high school, college aged kids going out into wetlands and trying to hit every briquette in a pool of where it's going to land in water. They don't. The effectivity, or efficacy as they like to call it of these briquettes is really not that known. They have selected sites that they test but that's the same sites every year. They don't randomly go to a site and say well ge.z, how many briquettes made it and dissolved and how many didn't. We found hundreds of briquettes in ditches that were left undissolved after a rainy year. They will sit on little tufts of grass so the next year they would come and then dump another 200 briquettesdoseage for this one wetland and I have the --' -,J -' Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,.... June 23, 1992 - Page 41 application records to prove it. There would have been an accumulation of about 3,000% of the amount of briquettes for that one particular 3 acre pond over by Lake Lucy Road. Now that pond drained into another pond which drains into my wetlands which drains into Lake Lucy. So you've got all this overdoseage possibly accumulating and going into a watershed and I said, we got together and said, enough is enough. Let's see what we can do without this chemicals. And we got tpgether some facts and got a petition together and under the Statutue 473 we said, we don't want mosquito controls anymore and they're out as of 1990. We have over 200 acres west of Lake Ann and north of Lake Lucy that are out of the control program entirely. No briquettes. No larvacides. No adulticides. No nothing. We're very grateful that the helicopters aren't disturbing us anymore and as a result, the wood ducks came back and nested for the first time since 1983. And I checked this out with 20 other residents on Lake Lucy who hadn't seen a wood duck since they started mosquito control. This also verified, coincides with data that Art Hawkins of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service says that up at Lake Emelia the same thing happened in the early 1980's. Mosquito control came in. Wood ducks disappeared. Mosquito control went away. Wood ducks came back. Okay, it's all antidotal. Non scientific but nonetheless, the same thing happened here. Our dragonfly population has just zoomed. Dragonflies eat almost exclusively mosquitoes and annoyance seems to be about the same level or less last year after a year after mosquito control was kicked out. And we got a lot more song' birds we feel and it seems there were a lot more fireflies hovering now ~. too. Hundreds of concerned citizens call various park boards and the DNR despite desparate to find out who is spraying the chemicals in the parks. Almost none of these complaints get reported to the MMCD until our environmental groups told them they went unreported and the sheer volume of complaints is one reason that Minneapolis refuses to use mosquito control anymore. I'm alone here in Chanhassen apparently with these kind of complaints but once people get educated about it. Oh, that's what those are. You know I'm going to watch out for it and if I get sick, now I know what it is. I'll complain it you know. Now I know what it is. But it takes education for that to happen. The MMCD would treat- an area without checking to see if there was a major problem to begin with and that's one reason why the Park Board in Minneapolis cancell~d the program. They sprayed on a schedule rather than a need. When, contrary to your antidotal evidence, I was there the day and the day after they sprayed Lake Ann Park with Punt. And there was a noticeable quiet in sounds throughout the section of the park. No birds. No insects. Nothing. No frogs. No snakes. Nothing in the harborage. I mean it was completely dead. Adulticides have no place in natural areas. They, according to the experts at Hennepin Parks and the DNR who banned these adulticides because they are sprayed in harborage where birds are not likely to nest because they nest on the edges of open areas and savannahs and grass areas and bees, they're likely to find flowers to pollenate because that's where the sunlight is and that's in their most vulnerable time. This is when they're young and this is also when they spray. And there are many, all our State agencies, the Federal agencies, all these park boards have cancelled adulticides because they know it's harmful. Don't take my word for it. I've got, if you don't want to take my word for it. There's a list of contacts that I'm "..... going to leave with Todd for copying for all of you. You're free to call anyone of these people and ask away. After all this compelling evidence that adulticides are harmful, the MMCD continues to use these toxic Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 42 -' materials. They promised at the last Technical Advisory Board meeting that they would improve their notification system but as it's actually gone 10 steps backward. They did not hold their. promise and they. eliminated the riotification syste~ for Punt entirely and made it very difficult to find out when ScoTch cold fogging is being don~ because they're requiring a citizen to call a hotline every single day. It's only updated once a day. You have to call it every day for 150 days during the season. for a daily fogging report. It's near impossible to make plans on short notice like th~t. In order to avoid needless exposure and minimize the risk to human health, citizens should have the right to know in ~ timely manner when these pesticides are used and whether they'ye a nuisance or ~n encephalitis threat. Senator Johnston and Representative Kelso introduced legislation that might have resulted in adequate notification system but sjnce that time I have learned more facts about the toxic hazards of adulticides used by the MMCD. And in the interest of public health, I am concentrating efforts to get the adulticides banned outright instead of promoting a system of warning the hazards. To prevent exposure to mosquito adulticides in the first place, Chanhassen parks should discontinue their use. The. MMCD would like people to believe that the nuisance control program is ,effective. No scientific evidence exists that the nuisance mosquito control program reduces annoyance anymore. Growing awareness caused many legislators and citizens who can ',t be fooled easily who initiated proposals to ask for facts because of the apparent lack of accountability of this agency. They may brag about their independent advisory boards and how many mosquitoes they kill each year but they don't kill enough to make a difference. The advisory boards only meet once a year for a few hours on a schedule set by the MMCD. They/have no voting authority ov~r the program. ..." I have been to two of these'meetings in the last 2 years with environmental groups and we've observed this in action. Concerns get aired about the banning of adulticides 2 years in a row and nothing gets done. Here I am. You know about the only way we're going to do it is at a grass roots level. Alright, let's do it. Local governments can prohibit nuisance mosquito controls. They can prohibit certain controls like adulticides. You can require notification that really works for it's citizens if you, have to do it such as signage that warns of the actual health hazards. Not a sign that says, mosquito control done here but take the label. Do what OSHA does with label, warning labels. I'm a safety label designer. I've designed thousands of safety. You have the sign warning. What it can do to you if you ignore the warning and what to do to prevent it. Or what you can do is allow nuisance mosquito control only when you request the application such as an event like July 4ih and it has a 3 to 6 day life anyway. TheMMCO has notified park boards to ask them when and if they want adulticiding but if you have to have it, right now the MMCD calls Scott'Harr in Public Safety but I think they and Public Safety should in turn call concerned citizens to notify when, at least a week in advance so we can make plans to avoid an area if we should so choose to do that. Because mosquitoes are so bad in Chanhassen Estates Park, I know parents won't take their kids to games before dusk. It's next to Rice Marsh Lake wetland which are heavily treated by the MMCD, and some of my neighbors are so intolerant of mosquitoes, they won't go in the woods after June 1st. Private property owners like myself and 13 of my neighbors, like I said, opted out of the nuisance control program and we report to you that it doesn't make any difference in the number of bites or annoyance. It's the same with or without the chemicals so if you're going to have mosquitoes, ..." Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,..... June 23, 1992 - Page 43 do it without the chemicals and not create a public health threat. Now everyone has their own tolerance threshhold for mosquito bites but does the fact that nuisance mosquitoes are plentiful in Chanhassen and it's parks mean that Metro Mosquito Control isn't working? That's right. They can't kill enough to make a difference and annoyance can't be reduced to the unrealistic tolerance goal which has been publicly announced at 2 bites in 5 minutes which the MMCD set. They can't do that without devastating cost to our pocketbooks and the environment. Now that's the opinion that worried scientists and latent citizens environment groups concerned about mosquito control. They also might, the MMCD might brag about how many thousand of sites they treated and mosquitoes they killed but there are thousands more they can't treat because they're in thousand of standing 'water puddles, rain gutters, children's pools and litter containers. Eliminating potential breeding sites like these are cost effective prevention. We should be encouraged as other mosquito control districts around the country do, to do these simple things to prevent mosquito breeding by the MMCD in their press releases, but we are not. Chicago has a publication that they hand out in the parks that says just the things that I said. This is what you can do to prevent mosquitoes and they found that 50% of mosquitoes, nuisance mosquitoes come from people's own backyards and it's a very cost effective program because you almost do nothing to empty water out of a container or clean your gutter out. Our State legislative auditor reported that the Director of the MMCD receives one-third royalties on the metheprine chemical formulas because he ~co-invented them with our tax money. This potential conflict of interest effects trying alternatives which are not financially self serving for it's director. Scientists agree that mosquito numbers are controlled by the weather, not periodic chemical control. Peak rain years always have sent out mosquitoes at high levels inspite of 32 years of chemical warfare. I'm going to show you a chart which is out of the Mosquito Control District's annual report for 1990 and it shows from 1960 to 1990 these peaks or wet years. This pink line here, connects the peaks and you can see that the level of mosquitoes hasn't changed in 30 years. They're talking about an .eradication program. Not even close. schroers: Eric, I think that we've receiving your signal here. Are you getting pretty close to completion with your presentation? Eric Rivkin: Yeah, I'm on my last page. That's it. So what action can we do to control mosquitoes that will be most environmentally safe and cost effective? There's three areas. There's prevention, natural controls and personal avoidance. These come from...Massachussets and South Cook County Mosquito Abatement District publications. Under prevention, standing water in people's own back puddles, driveways, gutters, swamps, pools, litter containers, things you can clean up. KSTP News reported the other night that mosquitoes love to breed in these puddles found everywhere so why not require proper drainage for our city engineers and the site management. Construction site management on our building permits. And public right-of- ways, we can do that in drainage ditches for our streets. Keep children's pools clean and so forth. This is a wild one. Don't provide so many blood meals for mosquitoes which come mainly from wild...Scout troops could have ,.....fun building bird houses for our parks. Materials donated by local businesses and citizens and that's been done in many communities already. My neighbors and I are doihg it. After we clean out the Mosquito Control Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 44 chemicals from our watershed, as I said, we got a return of wildlife. You can stock small ponds with fish that eat mosquito larvae and build nesting sites for ducks because they eat mosquito larvae like rilallardsand wood ducks. Eliminate lawn chemicals so that salamanders, frogs and song birds can thrive better to eat both larval and adult mosquitoes in our wetland which tend to accumulate toxic runoff. Landscape to eliminate harborage and circulate breezes. Personal avoidance. There's safer chemicals that don't have DEET in'it like Safe and Free and Bug off which are available at local food co-ops. Lakewinds. There's a new plant called a citroca plant that's designed to repell mosquitoes. These are .11 simple and cost effective and alternatives that will, to chemioals that will not save us from nuisance mosquitoes. So I urge you to ban all mosquito controls from Chanhass~n Parks and urge you to recommend to the City Council to also ban them from other city park property. One note about the lawn chemicals. Remember that it is now proven that Hodgeskin Lephoma Cancer in humans and other cancers in dogs are linked to 2~D common in these lawn pesticides which is definitely a health threat. If you're interested in adopting the Minneapolis' environmental policy, perhaps look at it. Le~rn from it. Contact Al Singer who wrote the policy and had it approved.' Thank you very much. Schroers: Thank you. That is an awful lot of information., 2 hours. My inclination is, at this point to put this as an item on a future agenda that we can discuss at a later date. Right now we've addressed 2 items on the agenda and there's 11 so we're looking at quite an evening here. Harold Trende: Mr. Chairman, members of the Com~ission, I can guarantee you I.m going to bore you with a very long speech here this evening. My name is Harold Trende. I've served on the County Board for the past 16 years. For the past 6 years', I've been Carver County's representative of the Mosquito control Board which,is comprised of 17 County Commissioners from the metropolitan area. Through the 6 years that I've served on the Board, a great majority of the calls for mosquito control, for additional mosquito control dealing with functions, Carver County fair, your local church dinner here. The requests have come through me and I have forwarded them to the Mosquito Control Commission. Prior to one certain individual's testimony, every city that I have been involved with that has been served by the Mosquito Control Oistricthas requested those services time and time again. It kind of tells me that someone must be kind of happy with the services that were performed. As far as environmental concerns ar'e concerned, folks believe me, we all have them. I appreciated the fact that you made a remark Larry in regards to Round-up. I am also a farmer, or 'have been all my life. Deal with sprays. Fertilizers. And believe me, everyone has the same concerns or at least the great majority have and everyone should have' as far as environmental effects are concerned. Mosquito Control District has worked many, many years with the DNR, with the EPA and agencies to try to have a product that is safe. I'm sure that if there were any doubt in any of the County Board members that sit on that Board that the materials they were using were toxic or a danger, I'm sure they wouldn't be using them. And as I said, I'm not going to bore you with long speech. I just wanted to leave you people know that as your representative from the County on the Mosquito Control Board, those are the things that I have found. If any of you have any questions, I'd certainly -/ --' --' Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,... June 23, 1992 - Page 45 try to address them. If you don't have, I feel for you with the rest of the agenda that you have remaining this evening. Schroers: Any particular questions for MT. Trende? Thank you very much. Harold Trende: Thank you for the opp6rtunity to speak to you. Appreciate it. (A majority of the following conversation was taking place out in the audience and was not being picked up very well by the microphone.) Resident: ...are your credentials somewhere on record for accurate interpretation of the information that you provided? Are you a chemical engineer? I found your information very interesting. I was just wondering how, where your training came from... Eric Rivkin: I simply take an interest in it because my own hQuse is effected directly by mosquito pesticides and... On a larger scale, the information that I have found... Resident: How long have you lived in Chanhassen? Eric Rivkin: 5 years. ~ Resident: But you feel then that you are now qualified to absolutely interpret the information that you're researching and sharing that with the Board? Eric Rivkin: I'm just providing a generalization. If you want specific information, I can provide...or you can call any references... Resident: I was trying to get your qualifications. Andrews: I have a question for you Todd. It says here that the granting of permission shall be invalid regarding the use of the park. Do we need to take action on this now in order to be set for 4th of July? Hoffman: In that regard I was speaking to the loading of the helicopter in Lake Ann Park which came as a surprise tome in a meeting this spring with the representative of the MMCD. The other issues of granting permission to spray cold fogging or adulticides, you can certainly address that this evening or you can put a temporary halt on that control until such time you wish to review it further. Koubsky: ...helicopters, is that a solid or a liquid? Hoffman: I believe it's solid. It's granular. Ross Green: We haven't loaded the helicopter here this year. After our discussion with Todd and his checking with a few people early this spring, we have not...helicopter at that point. One of the reasons... " ,... Lash: Where are you loading it now? Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 46 ....., MMCD: I just used it once this year and I loaded it at McKnight Park in. Jonathan. . . Ross Green: ...the helicopter is much more personal in it's application and it's easier to load... It's been at Lake Ann Park which is very convenient and we steered clear of any boats that are around or anything like that when we've loaded it. Make sure that there's no materials... We have not since talking to Todd. Resident: Were you asked by the Mosquito Control District to come here tonight? Resident: No... Resident: We heard it was going to be on the agenda tonight and we did hear from Mosquito Control but... ! There wasn't any notification that I'm aware of from the City... Lash: It was in the paper. The agenda. The Villager. Richard Wing: ...represent chanhassen. Where does this mosquito...? What area do you... Resident: We've lived in Chanhassen 14 years. 8 years out by the MIS middle school near the water tower. And in a heavily wooded area and we've' been very active with the school... My wife is very active with the school. Girl Scout troops. Boy Scout troops. Trying to police the area. .....,; Pick up trash...empty out tires...cooperation from Shorewood... Residents therel to clean up their tires and... (There was conversation going back and forth between the au~ience.) $chroers: Excuse me. I'd like to interjeot here. All this information is very valuable and we appreciate it but we are going to have to take this up at a later point in time. We thank you very much for coming and addressing this issue. Resident: Will we be notified? Schroers: Yes. There should be a sign up sheet where you can leave your name and address and will be contacted when this item will come up again on the agenda. Thank you. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Koubsky: I have one correction. April 28th, page 18. Third paragraph down. I did not say that. Hoffman: X it out. Take out the whole thing. Koubsky: Just put whoever said that in there. I think it was Fred. Since Fred's not here. No, I didn't say that. -'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~June 23, 1992 - Page 47 Schroers: Any other corrections? Lash moved, Koubsky seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meetings dated April 14, 1992 and May 19, 1992 as presented and the Minutes from April 28, 1992 as amended on page 18 by Dave Koubsky changing the third paragraph to Fred Berg. All voted in favor and the motion carried. APPROVAL OF TREE BOARD MINUTES. Lash moved, Erickson .seconded to approve the Minutes of the Tree Board meeting dated April 28, 1992 as presented. All voted in favor except Schroers and Pemrick who abstained. The motion carried. DISTRIBUTION OF PARK INVENTORY. REVISED APRIL. 1992. Hoffman: Just to clarify an item for back to the Commission again in July? these lobbyist back in here again and that? you. Do you want me to bring that. Presumably we're going to get all how would yo~ like to orchestrate Koubsky: Do we want a special meeting? Hoffman: I don't necessarily think we need to take commentary. I think we ~just have the Commission, you need to digest the informatioh. Take the additional information we received tonight and make a motion. Andrews: I would like to comment, if we have the two diverse sides, that we limit time. Lash: I can't imagine they would have much mOre to add. Erickson: I can't imagine that there's that much more that we are qualified to digest and make decisions on. I mean other than. Koubsky: We have to make a decision. Erickson: I mean make a decision but how much more information can we take in. I mean scientific information from a group of 15 scientists, workers and one well read, very passionate man. How much more information do we need? Hoffman: And again, we are simply a recommending board. We will b~ making a recommendation to the City Council whether or not to ban adulticides from our city parks. Lash: Do you have anything to add? Worthwhile. Hoffman: To this program? I know the incident at Lake Ann was severe and I was surpr~sed to hear their comments this evening that they always follow the label and they even go beyond that aDd go to 150 feet.. The entire ~harborage at Lake Ann is within 150 feet of the lake so they were, I've been enlighten greatly in the operations of the MMCD over the past few years. They simply operated there without telling anybody. We had no idea Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 48 ...". they were there. If you weren't informed of their activities, you just had no idea what was going on. Lash: So who's in charge of that? Isn't there someone at the City level who contracts it or supervises it? Hoffman: No. By their legislative action. Schroer~: They get funds from the State and they just go out and do their thing. They don't answer to anybody. They're a separate, independent government agency and they can just. Lash: But if we decided we didn't want to have it anymore, there would be an impact on our taxes correct? I mean the money comes from our taxes. Koubsky: $92,000.00 in Eastern Carver County. Lash: But it just seems like. Erickson: If we get them out of Chanhassen's parks, Chanhassen doesn't just get it's money back. Hoffman: No. You'd have to opt out of the district as some of these other communities are looking to. If you opt out of the district. Erickson: Eastern Carver County would have to get out right or Carver County would have to get out? .....", Hoffman: Something to that degree, yes. Andrews: Let's put that one on next month. Koubsky: Just one note. There wasn't 15 scientists. There was a doctor. pemrick: Yeah, Doctor of what? We don't know what the. Hoffman: Ross Green said it would be him and one other person so obyiously they brou~ht up their lobbyists. Schroers: This could again, on a future issue, turn into the same kind of thing. I think that, I wish that we could do this on our own without, just between the Board and the staff and just address this issue without having to make it public. I think that since we have already had it bpen and have consumed all this information; at this point I would just like to discuss it among our own commission and staff and make the recommendation. Andrews: I guess I want to know, what are we being asked to decide? Are we being asked to decide are chemicals safe? I mean we're not qualified to do that. Lash: We're being asked to decide if w~ think the benefits of the proposed mosquito control o,utweighs a perceived fear of. ....,., Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~June 23, 1992 - Page 49 Andrews: I don't think I'm capable of understanding that based on my understanding of chemicals and their effectiveness. Koubsky: I think those are issues that need to be discussed. Schroers: I think what we're supposed to decide is what we think is best for the citizens of Chanhassen who come to use our parks. Andrews: Unfortunately, if that's what we're supposed to do, then I think that we're going to have the same discussion group here again and I thi~k we should. I don't think we should make a decision. If I have a question about a chemical or a practice, you've got to have somebody here to answer the question. I would say that if you invite the district back, then we have to invite Mr. Rivkin back as well. Lash: Could we have a, schedule a work session and record our questions and then contact MMCD OT whatever they're called. Get answers to the questions or whatever and then, possibly then have it on a future agenda or something. Maybe we do need to have time. I know I need time to digest some of this. And I think we all need to take some time to get back to people that we know and ask them how they feel. Maybe there's a lot of people out there who have this concern. Maybe they think any chemical exposure is worth the benefit of controlling mosquitoes. I have no idea how people feel. I've never reaLly. ~Schroers: 'I think that there are people that feel that lots of mosquitoes aren't worth jeopardizing the environment and people's safety with chemicals. I mean I personally, my own personal feeling is that I don't think there is such a thing as a safe chemical. When it says toxic on it, you know even if you go by all the proper safety procedures and all that sort of thing, it's potent and toxic enough to kill whatever form of life. Whether it's animal life or plant life or whatever. If it's toxic enough to kill something specifically, it's harmful and I don't think anybody has all the answers and the chemical companies themselves are putting out how safe it is to use. That's like the oil companies with the gasoline. They're not going to tell you that there are better solutions than fossil fuels because they're making money off of it and the chemical companies are just the same. Andrews: place. If you read that label, it doesn't say where it's safe there any It says none side effects. Schroers: Warning. Hazard. Andrews: Agent Orange was safe in 1965 and DOT was safe in the 1950's. Hoffman: I just simply needed to clarify how you wanted to present this on the next agenda? . Lash: We still don't know. what do we want to do? ~Andrews: If we're going to have a work group, I'd like to have that put out as a motion and voted on. If that's what we're going to do. I want to have a chance to say that I'm opposed to having a work group. I think we Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 50 -' need an open discussion so if we have questions that need follow-up. I don't see myself coming up with a list of questions that I may, there may be a follow-up question. A comment that I just feel that we need the experts here to decide. Schroers: I don't know that we're making a real major decision for anyone. I think all we can address is the issues as are related to the parks. And 00 we want the adulticides sprayed in the parks knowing that that is really pretty toxic? Pretty harmful., Do we want the helicopter loaded or unloaded with large amounts of chemicals in our park? That sort of thing. Lash: Larry, you're injecting in there, knowing that they're toxic. Now if you listen to the first presentation, they're making it sound like it's no problem. They are not toxic. They are not a problem. Schroers: Wrong. When you read the label, it says toxic right on the label. Lash: But that's where we're trying ,to decide if we're qualified to decide t ha t. , Andrews: I move that we re-open this as an agenda item. I think it would have to be August because I'd need to read the Minutes in July in order to figure out what the heck we talked about tonight. Open agenda item as we did tonight. Erickson: And the basic question we have to answer is whether we're going to allow the use of adulticidesand the briquettes in Chanhassen parks? ...., Hoffman: Correct. Erickson: Just that simple. Pemrick: Dealing with the parks. Hoffman: If we put it off until August, season's over. They've be done with their activities. Andrews: Either that or we go to two meetings in July which could be possible. Lash: Is it something that, and I don't even know that I would want to do this. Is it something that we would want in the paper and ask people if they have feelings to contact the Park and Rec Department. Erickson: We could rent an auditorium someplace. Lash: Maybe there's a lot of people out there with strong feelings that think they're the only one in town who has strong feelings about it and if nobody calls, then we know nobody has any strong feelings. Koubsky: I guess I think we need, although you made a motion. Andrews: It died for a lack of second. Nobody seconded it. ....", Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 51 1""'. Koubsky: I think we need a work group. It looks like, I don't know, what other committees or commissions are looking at this? Are there? We're going to make a recommendation to the City Council. Hoffman: Correct. And they're going to make a recommendation or make a motion or take action in the same type of situation that you. They're not experts either but they're going to listen to the arguments and they're going to make a determination whether or not they want to agree with your recommendation. Schroers: We almost need a work group to see how we want to handle this. I mean it's getting to be that. I think there was so much information and .on both sides it was presented well and it's just really a lot to consume all at one time and it's a little bit overwhelming. I think we can break it down and make it simple but I also think that if we put it on another agenda item just like this as Jim suggested, that we're going to have an instant replay. We're going to have the same thing back allover again and we're going to be sitting here another time at 10:00-11:00 at night wondering what the heck to do about it. Koubsky: Yeah, we didn't get a chance to discuss this between ourselves. We heard a lot. Schroers: No. That's why I think we need a work session amongst "..... ou r se 1 ves . Lash: If we have a work session, from that we could then put it on a future agenda which then would be open to the public like Jim wants. This would just be a step before that. I think for us to collect our own thoughts. Schroers: Or we can do it now. If you know how you feel. I mean I know how I feel about it. Pemrick: I know how I feel. Koubsky: I guess I feel, I don't think chemicals are the answer either Larry. I didn't when I came in and I don't now. There's a thing, this chemical may not kill you but we live in a chemical world. We were sprayed with chemicals when we were kids. We've all put Off, we've all put Deet. There's an accumulative effect and I don't think we need to. Andrews: Put up a motion. If it flies. Lash: No, I don't think we can do that. We closed it. Andrews: He can. Lash: But we closed it to the public now and now they're gone and now we're still discussing it and for us to make a motion, we made a motion to table it to a future meeting. '" Schroers: No, we didn't make any motion. We didn't take any official action on this at all and we make all kinds of recommendations on evenings Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page S2 when the general public is not here. We've kind of indicated that'we're going to be taking this up again. Lash: Yeah, but these people came here intentionally for this issue and now all of a sudden after. ...",I Andrews: ...even amount of presentation. I feel that if we have a motion here that will fly, let's go with it. Get it behind us. Koubsky: I would move that we ban adulticides from the parks and we reconsider the use of briquettes in the parks if they're currently being used in the parks and I would move that the City also rethink the use of mosquito control in the city. Schroers: And I would add to that the Mosquito Control notifies the City each and every time that they come to do any kind of mosquito control activity and make us aware of their presence. What it is that they're doing and for the nuisance control, require them that 150% of the label warning. Just stay at least that far away from the water. Andrews: We're banning adulticides here. What else are we doing? Requiring that they advise us of anything else they're going to do. Is that it? Schroers: Well, that's not really it. We're still kind of discussing. Andrews: Well it's in the form of a motion right now. I want to know what ~ we're moving here so I know what we're voting on. Lash: And I want to know how this effects the treatment for the encephalitis whatever. Andrews: I would appreciate this motion being broken ihto little pieces. I think it'd make it a lot easier for us t? digest. Koubsky: Sould we jot them down as a group? Andrews: Just shooti them out one at a time. Lash: Why don't we shoot it out first but not say it's a motion and then once we get it kind of put together. Koubsky: Okay, Dave would move to ban adulticides in city parks. Andrews: I'll second that motion. We can have a whole string of them here just to get it done here.' schroers: Do you want to actually move on that? Andrews: We can move that we don't, tell them we don't want the helicopter there. schroers: Alright, the motion is to. ....,; Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 53 ,..... Koubsky: Ban adulticides use in city parks. Schroers: Is there a second? Andrews: I will second that. Koubsky moved, Andrews seconded' that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to ban adulticidesuse from all Chanhassen City Parks. All voted in favor except Erickson who opposed and the motion carried. Lash: Can I make a suggestion on a possible amendment. Can we have this be for a one year trial period and then be reviewed in a year? Schroers: We could but do you really think we're going to know anything? Lash: I'd like to see, I think what we need to do is see what kind of a difference it makes. If it makes any difference or not. Andrews: Okay, why don't you just move that we reconsider in one year. Lash: Okay. I'll do that. Andrews: I guess I would suggest, why don't we go through the list of what we're going to do here and then perhaps as a final motion reconsider all of ~ those next year. That might be an effective thing to do. By banning adulticides, have we eliminated any control of the disease carrying killers? The encephalitis mosquitoes. (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion. ) Schroers: ...1 think we would want to continue with that program. The nuisance program provided that we use that 150% on that buffer zone and that the proper authority, and I'm not sure who that would be Todd but that someone is contacted and that somebody knows of the activities that are going on. Someone who can officially represent the city. I mean I just think that the City has the right to know when anyone is coming in and on a public or a citywide basis, applying any kind of chemical. Lash: Someone responsible like Todd? Andrews: He's the Park and Rec Coordinator, yeah. Schroers: Park ~nd Rec. We can only deal with the issues that pertain to parks. So if you're willing to accept that responsibility, I would like to know. I mean I just wouldn't like to find out after the fact that oh a month ago, yeah. Andrews: I would move that we require any mosquito control efforts that directly involve parks. To require pre-notification to the Park and Rec Coordinator not less than one week in advance of any treatment. planned treatment. ,..... Sch.oe.s: Is there a second? Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 54 ....", Koubsky: I'll second. Andrews moved. Koubsky seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to require any mosquito control efforts that directly involve parks notify the Park and Rec Coordinator not less than one week in advance of any planned treatment. All voted in favor except Erickson who opposed and the motion carried. Lash: I'd like in there a motion that we continue the insect carrying control program. Make sure that's. Koubsky: OT could we identify what the disease? Lash: Yeah, that's what I meant to say. Schroers: Encephalitis. Koubsky: What the approach is? Lash: I don't know what it is. schroers: You know that's something that I'm wondering about. I mean it's hard to know if all the figures, facts and figures are correct and accurate but if we had like 7 cases in the last, how many years or whatever. In the last 10 years. 7 cases in the last 10 years and divide that by the amount of dollars, I hope that if I get sick, somebody spends that much on me. '-' Lash: Me too. I took great offense to that comment. Schroers: Geez, that is unreal. Lash: One child getting encephalitis is not worth. I mean it's worth any amount. ( Resident: Can I ask a question? When we left here we were going to have a chance to refute what it is that was said and what you considered and be carried on at another time. Was that what I heard? Schroers: That was what we talked about but it was not an official motion. We are kind of discussing and trying to sort out for ourselves for what we want to do in the city parks. And we're just passing our recommendation on to City Council. J~ Resident: I guess my question is that what Mr. Rivkin had to say and what we had to say...and a chance to talk about that and I know it's a late hour but -the decision to ban...banadulticides in the parks in Chanhassen, I'm wondering whether you had an opportunity to address those assertions... 5. Resident: There were a number of inaccurancies that we'd like the opportunity to... Schroers: You know to be perfectly honest with you, we discussed that and that's why we decided to go on with this because we feel what's going to happen next time is an exact repetition of what happened 'this time and -' Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,...., Ju ne 23, 1992 - Page 55 we're going to be sitting here again some night at 11:00 and 12:00 still not knowing what to do. Exactly. I mean we're getting all this information. None of us here are chemical experts or biolpgists or trained environmentalists or you know. We're in kind of a spot here as far as what to do. We need to take the bes~inteTest of the city to heart. The people who are using the parks and the only logical thing we can do is go with what's safe you know. We don't know how dangerous the chemicals are and what the long lasting, reaching effects are and it's like better safe than sorry. 1 Resident: I'm not sure...Department of Health has just finished a written assessment on...and it's currently under internal review. It's completed and they're just going over it before it comes out, that... I think that that's where we can get more of an impartial view of the whole thing rather than listening to sides and... Pemrick: I think that's why we said we'd give it a year and then re-evaluate again. That will give time for that review to be completed and then we can review that. Schroers: See what we're opting to do is to not use parks as a program but continue using other parts of the program and see if we can tell any kind of difference. If comments from people who use the park, if they can tell any kind of difference. I mean it seems if we're applying these chemicals ,..... to the parks one year and then we don't apply them the next year, and nobody notices a difference, then what would be the advantage of using them? I realize that there's a lot of other environmental issues. How much rain we have and so on that's going to effect the mosquito population as well but we're going to have to figure out something to do about this and if we bring it up another time on another agenda, we're going to be sitting here in the same situation as we are right now. I mean the additional information that we're going to received, we're not going to be any more qualified to assess than the information we received tonight. Hoffman: Chairman Schroers, Commissioners, as an alternative I might suggest that if this issue needs readdressing again, it was I believe, the intentions of the Commission with the people who left there this evening, that this would be discussed at another meeting. That we put an interim, temporary ban on adulticides within the city's parks pending a review, a second review by the Commission. Then you limit the testimony on anybody's part at the July meeting. Make a recommendation to the City Council and we'll pass it up to them in 2 weeks. Lash: I like that. I am interested though, and I'm not trying to put you on the spot at all Randy but I know that you were opposed to the motions and I'm really interested in your feelings. Erickson: Really just because I think it's a lot of the discussion is way out of our league and the step we're taking is relatively drastic. Not drastic to our everyday lives but relatively we say no more adulticides basically because we're not sure about everything. We're not sure about a "......,lot of things in life. We can't just say, well let's dump them. This discussion is probably going to have to go on in front of the City Council again? Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 56 """"" Hoffman: Yes. Erickson: I mean basically the same discussion. I mean wouldn't it Todd? We'll give them our recommendation and then it will come on the agenda and more than likely, similar groups would probably show up again. Hoffman: Sure, depending on how they would like to address it. Erickson: And we're not really a scientific body. Certainly the City Council takes our recommendation very seriously and stuff but I think we're kind of jumping on this.. Our gut feelings li~e Larry and all of us with the news headlines the way they always are and the current environmental trends, chemicals are bad. Let's getaway from chemicals. I don't like pesticides. I don't like herbicides, you know fertilizers and things. The gut instinct is let's throw this stuff out. Let's get rid of all of it.. I mean the gentleman who was here was very passionate and done a lot of research was also mentioning fertilizers. He wants to get rid of fertilizers. Well I put fertilizers on my lawn all the time. Not a ton. I try to use them very responsibly but they're toxic. They're bad. I try to use them the way they're labeled and responsible. Maybe this gentleman will be back next year and say let's get rid of lawn fertilizers. Are we qualified to get rid of lawn fertilizers? I mean this is something that's just so far out of our league, I just don't think our first step should be let's get rid of them. Maybe other workshops where we can get together with our feelings and so~e facts and spend som. more time maybe but I d6n't think our first step should be to throw these things out. I think Todd's got a good suggestion. Maybe for now to address these concerns, have a temporary ban. Was it a health department study that's coming out? ~ Resident: There was a Risk Assessment. ...."I Erickson: Risk Assessment. I'm in the medical field. I'm in the pharmaceutical business and you have to take opinion leaders words for things because they're the ones who put in the time and have the education and the background. Maybe this will shed a lot of light on it for us and our concerns. We're all conc~rned about chemicals being sprayed around us. As a matter of fact, if I was in the park playing frisbee with my kids and the ATV comes by spraying fog, I think I'd high tail it. I mean I just wouldn't hang around for it. That's just co~mon sense. But I think making a drastic jump. Throwing them out for a year so that next year we can hopefully be more enlighten. I don't know how much more enlighten I'm going to be in a year about things I can't. Schroers: I don't either. That's just the whole issue. That's what makes it so hard to decide. I mean this can be one of those wheels that just continuously goes on and on. Erickson: I think what we need to do is get together another time. Specify more exact general questions that we need to know. I think the health department study will be real helpful for us. Lash: When is that supposed to be complete? ~ ~Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 57 6, Resident: It is completed. It's in internal review in the health department. Lash: But when is that supposed to be finished then? Erickson: Knowing any kind of review board, it could be forever. 1. Resident: They actually, I was surprised. They got through it pretty quick. I was surprised that it was done as far as it is. Erickson: But this was overwhelming information for me and I hate to see, I don't know if this is the right cliche but throwing the baby out with the bath water. I mean we all despise chemicals and abuse and people getting sick from it and being hyper sensitive to them but. Pemrick: That's why I think we should be stopping everything until we do know. Schroers: That's kind of the approach I was taking too. It's better safe than sorry until we know what we're doing. What we shouldn't go ahead with something when we're not sure. When we're not convinced actually what is the final results and what all the hazards, what all the risks are. I don't feel qualified to make the decision for the rest of the people in the ,...... city that we should be participating in that type of activity. I mean I'm not personally convinced that it's okay. Pemrick: When other cities have banned it, there's a reason~ They've thought these things through I would think. That's something that we should be thinking about. Erickson: Well the other people that besides ourselves that look out for the citizens. We look out especi~lly for the Chanhassen citizens, are the legislatures that put these departments in and oversee them and fund them. I'm sure they address these concerns. Are you in front of Senate panels and things like that every once in a while? t. Resident: Yeah, quite a bit actually. All the bills that this originally referred to, none of them passed the way they were, none of them passed or went through committee the way that they were initially put out. The one that did partially get thr~u9h, actuallythe...was very, very far away from what it was originally introduced at. That gives you an indication of what the legislative thinking is on these things. Sure they were introduced but none of them went anywhere. And I guess one recommendation that I would make for you to help make a decision is to ask Mr. Rivkin to provide some of the scientific documentation that he says he has because we've asked for it and never seen it. Koubsky: That's one thing I'd like to make clear too. My feelings haven't changed since I came in the door tonight listening to both groups. I've ~madea motion. or started making motions and have an opinion which mayor may not change after I read the health department's study. I just want to make that clear to you folks that you gave your presentation. We heard an opposing presentation. My opinion of the use of chemicals for mosquito control weren't changed here tonight. I've had an opportunity to voice Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 58 .....-I them and I am. So I'm always open for new information but my mind hasn't changed. schroers: I want to know what really generated this issue on the agenda in the first place? Was it because of the helicopter incident out at Lake Ann? Or did Eric request this? What generated this? Hoffman: It was not a direct request of Mr. Rivkin, although he certainly appreciated the opportunity to voice his opinion in a public forum. As a result of meetings and letters being forwarded from the MMCD in the past, representatives of the District dealt with the Public Safety Commission. Scott Harr. More recently they began to deal with myself and the Park and Recreation Department. I believe it is an issue of public concern if spraying for mosquito control is taking place in the public parks. Schroers: It should probably be a public hearing. Hoffman: It certainly could be. Lash: That was kind of my point with the newspaper. schroers: I mean it really is. If none of ~s sitting here are qualified experts and it should actually be a public h~aring would probably be the most appropriate way to handle that. ..." Lash: But if we have a public hearing, I don't want to go .through another thing tonight where it's going to be just these, no offense or anything but just the two sides giving us all the same information. What I want to hear is from John Q. Public who uses the paik. Andrews: I think the public hearing will be tonight plus more. Schroers: oh yeah. We would almost have to schedule a public hearing for that specific event and that's it. Not have it on a meeting night or on a regular agenda. / Lash: But I don't want to hear repetitous. Andrews: You'd have to have a timer. Say you've got 5 minutes. Make your point and you're done~ Or 3 minutes or whatever it's goin9 to be. Hoffman: However you wouldn't but the public who was here would certainly need to hear that information. t(. Resident: I have just another question. I just found out about this meeting here a few days ago when I talked with Todd. He called my office and asked me what the status of the mosquito control was in Chanhassen for the parks and I informed him what it was. What we've been doing and we discussed this...business as usual in Chanhassen or...and he said~ he basically told me that it's, for nQw that's what it is.' He told me... schroers: Well the information that we received tonight was helpful in ....", explaining what it's all about and what the objectives are and the current statistic information and all that but for us to decide what's the right "" Par k and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992- Page 59 thing to do for the people who come out to use our parks is a pretty tough call for us because we don't really have all the scientific data a~d what do you do in that situation? Do you say well, probably no one has died so far. Let's just go on with things. Or do we want to take the safe approach and say, maybe we should cut back and be cautious and be safe rather than sorry and find out some of this information before. ~_Resident: We're another government agency serving the public and there's a lot to digest. As you pointed out there's a lot of information to ~o through and are you able and willing to go through that information to make a decision is a tough call. There's absolutely no question in my mind about that. Koubsky: I would appreciate any specific chemical information you can give me about what you apply. I do have access to some chemical engineers at work and it's something that those guys are a mystery to me but they're very good and I would like to run past what it is we're applying. I don't need newspaper articles. Something even more complicated, you know safety data sheets are very generic. Something very specific. What is it? Lash: Okay, can I make a motion that we advertise this in the paper and call a public hearing for fesident input before we ma~e any final decision and what was the other part to that? Do we want it in July already? ,... Hoffman: No. Public hearing, we cannot hold a public hearing per se. We can hold an open forum. City Council is the only body in the city that can hold a public hearing. Koubsky: We can also move in our recommendation that the City Council hold a public hearing or that we feel. Schroers: I was thinking that same thing too. Lash: Maybe it needs to go through us but when we send on our recommendation to them, ultimately we can have in there that we recommend that they hold a public hearing. Hoffman: Okay. Schroers: That sounds a lot like passing the buck. But the program is not just for the parks. That's the only issue that we can deal with but the program is for. Andrews: The concern is really city wide. Schroers: Yeah, it's city wide so we only deal with one portion of the city. One aspect of the city. Andrews: Can you read the motion back? ,.... Hoffman: Motion to postpone this meeting until the July meeting. Lash: Have public notification in the paper and have an open forum. Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 60 -' Hoffman: For continuation of discussion. Schroers: That's probably the best we can do from our position. Andrews: You kn6w what? I don't think that's going to help me at all because I think what I'm going to end up thinking to myself is, let's pump this up to the City Council and let them decide what to do with it. Schroers:You almost have to keep a score card. You know how many people come up and are in favor of it and ,how many people come up and are not in favor of it and then move or make a motion or recommendation to the City Council for the majority of the input. Andrews: Okay, I'll second it. I surrenderw schroers: Okay, so. Lash: The thing is, that's what we're for. We're the buffer before City Council so hopefully when it goes to City Council, they won't have to go through as much as what we've had to go through. Hoffman: Most likely in this type of, on this type of issue they will. Schroers: ...they will. There will b~ a lot of lobbying on both sides at the Council level. ....", Hoffman: I would presume so. Andrews: should we call the question? Are we spinning wheels? Schroers: Pretty much. Lash: That's alright. We can go through the motion. We're doing our job. Andrews: I'm asking for you to call the question. Schroers: Okay. Did you write down that motion Todd? Hoffman: Yes. Schroers: Would you read it back please? Hoffman: Chairman Lash moved to table this issue until the July meeting to make public notification in the paper as to that open forum meeting and what ~as the last deal Jan? That was it. Lash: That was it. And I mean if it's possible, to get something more than just our agenda. Hoffman: Correct. Send public notification. Schroers: Alright. Is there a second? -# Andrews: I already seconded it. ~Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 61 Lash moved, Andrews seconded to table the decision on the mosquito control in the city parks until the July meeting and to put notification in the newspaper that the Park and Recreation Commission will be holding an open forum discussion on this matter. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Schroers: That's what we came up with for your information. Lash: So are we striking the earlier motions? Andrews: That have to be done by motion. Hoffman: Rescinded. Lash: Okay. So I make a motion t-hat we rescind the earlier, however manY there was there until. Schroers: Until after the forum. Koubsky: I would like though that notification be made to the City of any. Andrews: That was a separate motion. Let's leave that one sit. ~Koubsky: I would appreciate if we were notified before before we get treated. ~ Resident: Through Todd? Lash: Through Todd. ~. Resident: No problem. We discussed that earlier. Lash: And I also think that we need to have the posting. Andrews: That's a given too I believe. Andrews: I would like to move that we rescind the ban of adulticides until it's reconsidered at a future meeting. Rescind the ban. Schroers: I will second that. Andrews moved, schroers seconded to rescind the previous motion to ban adulticides in the city parks until it's reconsidered at a future meeting. All voted in favor except Koubsky and Pemrick who opposed and the motion carried. Andrews: What can we table? I've got to get out of here. Hoffman: Item number 5. I would recommend that the Commission table. ,...... Andrews: I move that we table item 5. Erickson: Second. Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 62 ....." Andrews moved, Erickson seconded to table discussion of park inventory. All voted in favor and the motion carried. SUMMER BALLFIELD SCHEDULES. Ruegemer: Does anyone have any questions on it? Commission: No. Andrews: Fields are busier than heck right? Hoffman: That's the gist of it. 1992 FOURTH, OF JULY CELEBRATION. Hoffman: All we need is your volunteer assingments. Lash: Okay, I'll do the raffle thing Friday night and I'll do this sand castle judging Saturday. Erickson: I should be able to help on Friday, but not Saturday. Lash: Will you help with the sand castle with me Wendy? pemrick: Sure. What time is that? ....", Lash: I don't know. Ruegemer: 2:45 on Saturday. pemrick: I'll work Friday night. What do I have to do there? Ruegemer: We have coordinators this year for the. carnival games. pemrick: Oh, so you're all covered? Lash: Do you need me to help with the raffle? Did you somebody for that? Ruegemer: Yeah. We can have somebody sell shirts. going to help out...shirts tonight. The people that are \ Lash: Wendy, do you want to sell shirts? We could do that because aren't the shirts and the raffle right next to each other? (T-shirts were handed out to the Commissioners at this point.) 1993 CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM. Hoffman: Item number 8. The recommendation has been made to table it. Andrews moved, Koubsky seconded to table the 1993 Capital Improvement Program. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ....-/. Lash: What did we have to do for it? Did we have to do anything for it? ~Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Pa~e 63 Hoffman: No. Lash: Why don't we just approve it and be done with it? Hoffman: No, item 8 is a motion to table it until the July, 1992 meeting because the information was not completed. It's acting on the 1993 CIP. Lash: Oh. CONSTRUCTION CONTRACTS UPDATE: Schroers: ~onstruction updates. Can we just do that basically real. quick? Hoffman: Yeah. Lake Ann Utilities. We're having some problems with the contractor. Getting him to perform. The shelter's been going real well. Lake Susan Park is completely done. Herman Field, we're still arguing over seed but we'll get that straighten around. Lash: I saw guys working at Lake Ann. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS: Schroers: ,..... Koubsky: I am you are too. Are there any Commission Member presntations? hearing grumbling about no totlot at Sunset Ridge. I know Hoffman: They started the border wood work on the new ones today... <There was a tape change at this point.) Andrews: Two items. dogs at North Lotus. First of all people are totally ignoring the ban on There's dog poop piles everywhere you go. Lash: Are you sure it's doss or is it geese? Andrews: It's dogs. But the second item is just as a note for next meeting. I think we need to put on an early agenda item before we get to the mosquito control thing that we'd have to make some official 'decisions about limiting discussion time. If that takes official action in order not to get in trouble so, I don't want to get into a 45 minute speech on another one because it's too much to digest. Hoffman: Council routinely gives those recommendations. Limit your comments to 5 minutes. Andrews: I think we ought to make sure that we don't forget to announce it so nobody gets hard feelings and surprised. , Schroers: You know we could actually layout a format. We could design ~the questions that we need answers for. The questions that we would like public input on and just ask those questions. Just say we want to know how you feel about. Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 64 ...."" Andrews: I think it's just important to state a limit before anybody starts because then it's fair. Las~: Well, if we can get a halfway decent write up in the paper about what happened tonight with both sides and people read it and say, this is going to be continued in July and if you have feelings, come to the meeting. Then they've already read it and they already know the two opposing sides and they've formed their opinion and they're coming. They probably don't need to hear from either the MMCD or Mr. Rivkin. Andrews: How many people in a row...say I agree with my neighbor that we don't want a parking spot? I expect there to be one after another just coming up and saying, I'm for or I'm against it. Schroers: That makes our job easy. All we've got to do is have a yes and a no colume. Check yes. Check yes. Check yes. Whatever and then add up the scores and at the end of the night, make the recommendation to the Council . Andrews: I have no other presentations. Lash: ...ifno one shows up. Schroers: I know. This is going to be a tough thing to do. ....",I Hoffman: You just simply need to do it. Schroers: That's it. Andrews: You were looking for volunteers for the TH 5 Commission? Hoffman: That's coming up, item 11. schroers: We would have done this probably if they hadn't have walked back in the room. Hoffman: If you were in the mood to do it, you probably should have made your motions when everybody was still here and everybody. Andrews: I feel a little better about this. Schroers: We were a little bewildered at that time. Lash: I thought w~ were being real under cover there with letting everybody go and then starting to make motions. Andrews: It's easier that way. , ADMINISTRATIVE SECTION AND PRESENTATIONS. Hoffman: Okay, item number 11. We need the nomination to the TH 5 Corridor Task Force. ....,I Andrews: I'd be interested. ~Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 23, 1992 - Page 65 Lash: I nominate Jim Andrews. Pemrick: I second it. Lash moved. Pemrick seconded to appoint Jim Andrews to the TH 5 Corridor Task Force to represent the Park and Recreation Commission. All voted in favor land the motion carried. Hoffman: Anything in the Admin packet? Lash: I have one. Your clean up the parks. For Greenwood Shores, can you also have glass? Hoffman: Sure. Lash: Because there gets to be a lot of glass down there. Right around the tree and the picnic table and the garbage can. Hoffman: The ones that I mention glass are the ones that I thought there'd be heavy populations of... Lash: Have you gotten any tips on the tree cutting down at? ~Hoffman: Trying to keep up with it with the Sheriff's Department. Todd Hoffman presented the video of the WCCO News on the tree cutting at Carver Beach Park in Chanhassen. Andrews moved. Lash seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Coordinator Prepared by Nann Opheim ~