PRC 1992 08 25
CHANHASSEN PARK AND
~ RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
AUGUST 25, 1992
Chairman Schroers called the meeting to order at 7:32 p.m..
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Dave Koubsky, Larry Schroers, Randy Erickson,
Jim Andrews, and Fred Berg
MEMBERS ABSENT: Wendy Pemrick
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Coordinator; Jerry Ruegemer,
Recreation Supervisor; and Dawn Lemme, Program Specialist
APPROVAL OF MINUTES:
Schroers: Are there any corrections, additions, or deletions to the
Minutes?_
Berg: Yes. The very last section, the administrative section of
presentations. Everything that I'm given credit for saying, I didn't say.
I don't know who did.
Erickson: Was it good?
,.....
Andrews: Did it seem to babble along? That might have been me.
Berg: It didn't seem particularly illustrative...so I don't want to take
credi t for it.
Lash: Where are you?
Berg: On the very last three pages.
Hoffman: Page 60, 61.
Berg: 59 actually.
Schroers: Okay, Fred we'll scratch you. Does anyone want to.
Hoffman: Claim those comments.
Lash: Well I recall on page 60, I recall saying something about...trees. I
don't know how anyone would mistake our voices.
Hoffman: I said the bottom one there.
Lash: Correct?
Hoffman: No. We also have a letter in here from Mike Gorra. Or no,
somebody said that, that was in the administrative packet.
,.....
Schroers: It looks to me Todd like you filled in a couple of times here.
Koubsky: I think that was me. Page 60. Berg vs. Koubsky.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 2
Hoffman: Okay.
......"
Koubsky: Oh, that might be me all the way through. It's all about the
trees.
Hoffman: Corrections so noted.
Lash mo~ed, Erickson seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and
Recreation Commission meeting dated July 28, 1992 as amended on pages 59-61
changing Berg's statements to Koubsky. All voted in favor of the Minutes
as amended and the motion carried.
METES AND BOUNDS SUBDIVISION. EUGENE KLEIN. 8412 GREAT PLAINS BOULEVARD.
Hoffman: Thank you Chairman Schroers. Members of the Commission. This is
a straight forward lot split by the means of a metes and bounds
subdivision. Mr. Eugene Klein is present this evening and may have a few
questions. Essentially what it is'is a subdivision of 1.5 acre parcel into
two lots. The dimensions shown there. The square footage. It's located
at 8412 Great Plains Blvd. just south of Lake Susan Park, as you can see on
your location map. It's currently zoned residential single family. The
zoning around the property is all residential single family, with exception
to the north which is Lake Susan, RD. Recreational Development lake. The
comprehen~ive pl~n identifies that this parcel does lie within a park
deficient area of the city. However, due to the size of the subdivision,
this situation cannot be corrected as a part of this proposal. In
reference to the comprehensive trail plan, the plan does identify a future --'
trail along TH 101 south. The exact alignment of which is unclear at this
time due to the new proposed highway 101. We question which road will the
trail be on? The new TH 101, the old 101 or both. Most likely the new 101
for sure but then taking a look at the old 101 and what portion of that
road will necessitate a trail as well. And that's stated there again.
Best predictions are present that the trail connecting the Bandimere
community park with the d6wntown will follow the newly constructed TH10l.
That alignment will pas. over 212 which will be somewhat lower than the
overpass, to try to make. the noise factor as minimal as po~sible with that
trunk highway 212. Staff considered recommending the taking of a permanent
20 foot easement on the south property line of the subject lots for future
potential trail purposes. But upon looking into that further, it's
apparent that the likelihood of such an easement being utilized is somewhat
minimal. As such, it is iecommended that the Park and Recreation
Commission recomm~nd the City Council accept full park and trail fees for
the newly created lot as a part of the subdivision request. These fees are
to be collected at the time of the building permit issuance for the amount
then in force for park and trail fees. Currently those fees are $500.00
and $167.00 respectively.
Schroers: Okay, thank you. At this time I'd be willing to entertain any
questions regarding this matter from Mr. Klein.
Eugene Klein: Is this standard procedure...?
Schroers: Yes, I believe it is.
....",
Pa,k and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 -Page 3
.I""
Hoffman: COllect. Du,ing any subdivision. Any subdivision of any
p,ope,ty the City then has the autho,ity to come in and assess pa,k and
t,ail fees as pa,t of that subdivision. So we either ,equire the
dedication of pa,kland at a per unit basis. However, in this case it's
just one lot being created so we assessed the pa,k and trail fees against
the building permit on that new lot.
Eugene Klein asked a question that was not hea,d.
Hoffman: Correct. So the person taking out the building pe,mit on the new
lot will be the responsible party fo, paying it.
Eugene Klein:
...why ale you assessing it now...
Hoffman: T,ail fees ale collected and deposited into a fund which is then
used to finance all trail development th,oughout the city.
Schroers: Alright, any other questions or comments by Commissione,s?
Koubsky: A,e you satisfied with the answers?
Eugene Klein: Yeah. I was...
Schroe,s: Can I ask you a question. Is this the parcel whe,e Walte,
Ke,sick also lives on?
.1"'"
Eugene Klein: Right...
Sch,oers: Okay. Thanks very much. Al,ight then, if there isn't any
fu,ther discussion on this item, is someone ready to make a recommendation?
If not, I will. Okay, I'll ,ecommend that the Pa,k and Rec Commi$sion
,ecommend to the City Council the acceptance of full pa,k and t,ail fees
fo, the newly cleated lot as a part of the subdivision. And that the fees
ale to be collected at the time of the building pe,mit issuance in the then
ln force for park and trail fees and the cu"ent fees ale $500.00 and
$167.00 respectively. Is there a second?
Koubsky: Second.
Schroers moved, Koubsky seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend the City Council accept full park and trail fees for the newly
created lot as a part of the subdivision request. These fees are to be
collected at the time of the building permit issuance for the amount then
in force for park and trail fees. Currently those fees are $500.00 and
$167.00 respectively. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
And,ews: Mr. Klein. Be sure to take note that the fees that we mentioned
here are whateve, the cur,ent ,ates are. So the property doesn't get
built, or a permit not taken out now. Those fees could change.
Eugene Klein: Okay. Is that standard...
" Andrews: Yes.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 4
Eugene Klein: It's not an add on charge?
....",.
Hoffman: It would be listed as a separate line item on your building
permit. So you'll see it there, park fee, trail fee. It will be listed
right on the building permit application.
Schroers: But it's the same citywide. It doesn't change from one parcel
to the next.
Hoffman: Correct unless, what is assessed back. If you take property and
that takes the place of half the fees, then the fees may vary some. Some
households or building permits get charged $250.00 because that particular
subdivision dedicated a park as part of that subdivision. So they were
given credit for that land.
SITE PLAN REVIEW. CHANHASSEN RETAIL OFFICE CENTER. 840 WEST 78TH STREET.
COPELAND-MITHUN INCORPORATED.
. Hoffman: Chairman Schroers and members of the Commission. This would be
the second phase of the Chanhassen Retail Office Center or what is commonly
referred to as the Chanhassen Medical Center. With the soon to be moving
of Chanhassen Lawn & Sports; the new supermarket mall in town, that allows
this lot to come up for development. It's a site plan review for Phase 2
of Chanhassen Office Retail Center. For a 10,600 square foot building.
The lot size is 25,123 square feet. I believe that 2 in front of there is
just Lot 2. So the size is significant. It's significance is somewhat
minimal. It's approximately half an acre so if we take that times our ~
current industrial/commercial park and trail fees of $2,500.00 per acre and
$833.00, you come up with somewhere in the neighborhood of $1,500.00
generated off of this development. Again, the location is 480 West 78th
Street. The applicant is Copeland-Mithun, Inc.. Mr. Bob Copeland did call
me today questioning ~hether I thought his presence was" necessary this
evening. I informed Mr. Copeland that it was not. Present zoning is
central business district. It's deleted there. It's been omitted.
Adjacent zoning to the north is high density residential 6r the apartments
in that vicinity and the remaining adjacent zoning is CBDor Central
Business District. Comprehensive park and trail plans, the subject parcel
lies within the City's central business district and as a commercial
development, is subject to commercial/industrial park and trail fees.
Non-vehicular access to the site is provided via downtown sidewalks. This
is not subject to the vacant parkland that's-proposed. The recommendation.
It is recommended that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the
City Council accept full park and trail dedication fees as part of the
development with. the current fees agai n bei ng $2,500.00 per acre and
$833.00 per acre respectively. Again, these fees will be collected at the
time of building permit issuance.
Schroers: Okay, thank you Todd. I think that's all pretty straight
forward. Is there any discussion on this? If not, is someone ready to
make a motion?
Andrews: I move that the Park and Rec Commission recommend the City
Council accept full park anq trail dedication fees as a part of this
development. Those fees to be paid,at the time that permits are drawn. --'
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 5
,.....
The current fees are $2,500.00 per acre and $833.00 respectively.
Schroers: Is there a second?
Lash: Second.
Andrews moved, Lash seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend that the City Council accept full park and trail dedication fees
as part of the Chanhassen Retail Office Center development with the current
fees being $2,500.00 per acre and $833.00 per acre respectively and that
these fees be collected at the time of building permit issuance. All voted
in favor and the motion carried.
APPROVAL OF THE 1992 CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM PURCHASES.
Hoffman: Chairman Schroers and members of the Commission. You have before
you the distributed packets as noted in your packet mailed out or dropped
off last week. It includes a memorandum from myself, bid tabulation, .
product evaluation for the phase 1 play equipment structure at Herman
Field. Then the quotation forms sent back from the various lenders. Then
you go into a larger, 11 x 17 packet and it has the diagrams of the three
vendors who chose to present proposals for the Herman Field play structure.
With us this evening we have Mr. Bill Jananosky of Value Recreation. He is
one of the vendors located here in Chanhassen. Mr. Jananosky would like to
~ introduce himself and his business prior to reviewing this proposal.
Bill, I don't think you're going to review your proposal in detail. I'm
not sure if that would be fair to the other vendors but Mr. Jananosky could
certainly introduce himself and his product and if you have questions
specific of Bill, I would think you could ask those.
Bill Jananosky made a statement from the audience.
Hoffman: Well sure we can do that or if you want to take a few minutes.
Bill Jananosky: Yeah, I just got this information about 10 minutes ago.
I'd 1 i ke to...
Hoffman: It will probably take us 10 or 15 minutes. Okay, we'll walk
through this step by step. Sheet 1 included the proposal for the provision
of a swing and two spring animals. As you can see from the bid tabulation
sheet, all vendors, there's five ~endors which the proposal was sent out
to. All chose to provide a quotation on those items. The low bid there is
Value Recreation for a total of $1,685.00. That being the swing bid at
$935.00 and the two spring animals at $750.00. The other bids range from
a second low of $1,838.00 to a high of $1,913.43. Again, as the
recommendation that Value Recreation's bid of $1,685.00 be accepted for the
provision of these three items per the specifications listed.
Koubsky: Ig it three items or two items?
Hoffman: A swing and two spring animals. Three items total. The spring
,.... animals is $750.00. That's for any two spring animals.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 6
Lash: So if we're looking, the bids that we have are supposed to be
corresponding with the drawings? '
-.-I
Hoffman: The bid tabulation is separated by three sheets. Sheet 1 deals
with a swingsetand two, spring animals. Sheet 2 has to do with picnic
tables. And then sheet 3 is the play structure which we will review in
detail. The play structure bids correspond with the 11 x 17 sheets ~hat
you have.
Lash: Okay, and the swings and the spring animals don't?
Hoffman: Correct. These are separate items. These two items happen to be
for Carver Beach playground.
Lash: The swing and the. spring animals?
Koubsky: Todd, are they all bidding on the same thing? Do one have metal
swings and one might have redwood?
Hoffman: No, the specifications were specific in that they all bid on
identical specifications. In essence of the swing. The spring animals
var ied from vendor to vendor. I've prov'ided them the option of providi ng
different prices on different sets of animals so if they had a deluxe line
and a standard line, they could give us those prices on both those
di fferent 11 nes.
Schroers: Would you define the product evaluation phase Todd?
....,
Hoffman: Product evaluation is for the Sheet 3, the play structure only.
That runs through the play structure bids. The proposals which were
received. Again, Sheet 1 and Sheet 2 are fairly str~ight forward. Sheet 3
gets somewhat more complex and we'll walk through that on the overhead
proposal by proposal. I would recommend that you act on each separate
sheet.
Schroers: Okay. Are you wanting us to con~inue on this right now?
Hoffman: Sure. I would go ahead and make a motion to award each sheet so
again it is recommended on Sheet 1 for the-swing pnd the two spring animals
at Value Recreation's bid Qf $1,685.00 be accepted. If you have additional
questions, I have catalogs here if you'd like to see what you're buying.
Lash: That would be nice. I usually kind of need visual aids.
Koubsky: Value Recreation's located out of Pennsylvannia?
Hoffman: Playworld Systems is located out., the Playworld Systems the
company which Value Recreation and Bill Jananosky represents.
Koubsky: Did Landscape Structures not submit for the first bid tabulation
there Todd?
Hoffman: Landscape Structures is represented by Earl F. Anderson and
Associates. If you want me to run through there. Landscape Structures out ....,
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 7
"'"
of Delano is represented by Earl F. Anderson. FSI or Flanigan Sales Inc.
represents Iron Mountain Forge Equipment. Bob Klein and Associates
represents Miracle Play Equipment. Minnesota Playground represents, it
escapes me at the moment. And again Value Recreation is Playworld Systems.
Andrews: Can I try a motion here?
Schroers: Yes.
Andrews: For Sheet 1, I move that we recommend to City Council that we
accept the bid of Value Recreation for $1,685.00.
Schroers: Okay, for the provision of the three items.
Andrews: The three items on sheet one.
Schroers: Okay, is there a second?
Erickson: I'll second that.
Andrews moved, Erickson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend the City Council accept the bid of Value Recreation in the amount
of $1,685.00 for Sheet 1, a swing and two spring animals. All voted in
favor and the motion carried.
,~ Schroers: Can I then ask for a recommendation on Sheet 2?
Andrews: I move that w~ recommend to City Council that we accept the bid
of Bob Klein and Associates for $1,199.00 as the low bidder for that
project.
Schroers: Okay, there's a correction, $1,949.00. You said 99.
Andrews: I must be reading something different than you are then.
Lash: Are you on the front page?
Andrews: I'm on the bid tabulation page.
Schroers: On the front page it's $1,949.00.
Hoffman: There's a typo there. Go to the.
Erickson: On the bid tabulation sheet it's $1,199.00.
Schroers: Is that the correct one? 99?
Hoffman: Correct.
Andrews: My motion stands then.
I"""
Schroers: Yeah. And then is there a second?
Erickson: I'll second.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 8
Andrews moved, Erickson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend the City Council accept the bid of Bob Klein and Associates in
the amount of $1,199.00 for Sheet 2, picnic tables. All voted in favor and
the motion carried.
~.
Schroers: Okay, Sheet 2 has been recommended.
Hoffman: You said on Sheet 1, who moved?
Andrews: I did.
Schroers: Jim did.
Hoffman: Seconded on Sheet 1? Erickson.
Schroers: And the same on 2.
Hoffman: Yep.
Andrews: For Sheet 3, I guess I'd like to make the comment that I
personally have a preference that we, when we have an opportunity to do
business with a local vendor, that we do that. When it's not to the
disadvantage of our city. I feel that in spite of the fact that FSI has a
slightly lower bid, that I feel there's a benefit to giving our business to
a Chanhassen business for what I consider to be a small amount of money.
Hoffman: I'll run through on Sheet 3. When I send out the specifications "",
for a piece of play structure, we actually give them the budget amount so
they all knew went into this proposal. They all knew going into this
proposal that we.
Andrews: Shooting for a figure that they already know about.
Hoffman: Correct. And what they're trying to do is maximize the play
value and maximize the product for the money.
Andrews: Todd, do you have any comments about the equality of what's being
provided here then since we're really working with a 'target number?
Hoffman: Correct yes, and I'll go ahead and run through those comments.
Again, Sheet 3 is the phase 1 of Herman Field Park. The product
evaluation's conducted resulted in the attached chart do not conclusively
identify a superior proposal. However, each of those has it's strong
points for the Commission to consider. The most notable being Earl F.
Anderson's attention to the requirements in compliance with the mandates of
the American with Disabilities Act. ADA. Flanigan Sales, numbers of play
components. They came across with the most play value. And then again
Value Recreation's location here in town leading in their offer to
providing maintenance ona complimentaty basis. Each proposal ~as it's own
merits. The advantages and shortcomings of each is open to a large
variation and interpretation. I will be providing the Commission with an
overview of each proposal upon which the Commission may decide a method
they would like to use to award this purchase. Your familiarity with play
equipment will prove beneficial in this regard. The product evaluation ....",
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 9
,....,
for phase 1 is essentially a disect each proposal which come in. Which is
proposed so you break it apart. Look at how many decks. How many play.
components. How many posts. That type of thing. How they conform to your
specifications which were provided, etc.. Again, the three companies
making proposals were Earl F. Anderson or EFA, Flanigan Sales, and then
Value Recre~tion. The price includes tax and delivery on all... Again,
the manufacturers of the different play structures are Landscape Structures
out of Delano. Iron Mountain Forge from Farmington. That's Missouri, not
Minnesota. Playworld Systems from New Berlin, Pennsylvannia. One of the
questions asked of the suppliers was to provide a statement of compliance
with the Consumer Product Safety Commission and ADA, the American with
Disabilities Act. EFA provided both of those. FSI did not. Nor did Value
Recreation. Delivery within 30 days, EFA, FSI cannot do that and Value
Recreation did not specify dBlivery within 30 days.
Bill Jananosky: 30 to 45.
Hoffman: Okay, 30 to 45.
Koubsky: Todd, if it's, your no indicates that they didn't submit that
with their bid?
Hoffman: Correct.
,,-...
Koubsky: Do we have any idea if they do have a statement of compliance?
Hoffman: Again, in this tabulation this afternoon I contacted both FSI and
Value Recreation. Bill will have to speak for his proposal this evening.
FSI indicated that no, that was an oversight but the catalog which I have
here this evening will say that their equipment conforms to CPSC, the new
guideline.
Lash: So FSI does comply?
I""
Hoffman: That's what the representative I talked to today said, yes. They
would comply but again, on the plan you'll see from Earl F. Anderson, it's
stated right on there that in their opinion it does comply so we can only
take it for. face value. If we flip the sheet and start looking at other
components of the play structure, accessibility is the big issue today.
Accessibility to the main structure is provided through all proposals.
However, in the second proposal from FSI, it did not provide it in phase 1.
It's provided in phase 2. Essentially what the accessibility to,the main
structure means is you have a hard surface coming into a transfer deck.
Then with a rubber matting or a rubberselient material being glued down to
that concrete to allow that accessibility to be gained. Accessibility to
the swing sets, Earl F. Anderson provides that. The other two proposals do
not. Taking a look at the number of decks. Square decks versus triangle.
Earl F. Anderson provides you with 6 decks. FSI, 3 square decks and then 4
triangular decks. Value Recreation has essentially 3 square decks. One of
those 3 being considered as the combination of some components on the
structure. 15 inch transfer deck and then 3 steps and 2 triangular decks.
Number of poles is essentially identical. 14, 15 and 16. Not in that
order. Number of advance play components which includes such things as
slides, bridges, those types of components. Climbing bars. Each one, Earl
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 10
F. Anderson provides 5. Flanigan Sales 6 and Value Recreation 4. If you
look at the final page, the number of simple play components which is a
fire pole or some similar type of apparatus. Earl F. Anderson has one.
FSI has 3. Value Recreation proposes 1. Number of swings are identical in
all proposals with the exception ,that, in Earl F. Anderson and Value
Recreation's proposals, it's 1 bucket, 1 belt and a tire. Where in FSI
it's 2 tot and a tire. Those differences resulted from struggling with
CPSC guidelines and then trying to provide swings underneath this type of
bidding climate and bidding dollar restrictions. CPSC says you can only
have 2 swings and 1 bay and they should be identical types. So you should
have, if yp~ have 2 swings in 1 bay, you should either have 2 tot seats or
2 belt seats. As you can see, FSI conformed with that providing 2 tots and
1 tire. The other two elected not to. To provide the diversity. Again,
it's purely a standard. It's not law. Provision of border is essentially
identical throughout all the proposals. However, I could not confirm the
lineal footage with FSI. However, they did state that they would provide
all redwood border for Phase 1. The other two are 268 lineal feet and 266
lineal feet of redwood border which totals a dimension of 5 1/2 inches by
11 inches. And then tiles for accessibility. Earl F. Anderson provides
12. Again, FSI none and Mr. Jananosky... the structure to the main
structure, they need to put down those tiles. So in this proposal there
would be 4 tiles here...
.....",
Schroers: Okay Todd, thank you for that information.
Hoffman: Larry, I think at some point we're going to have to go through
these step by step. If you want to do that at this point through your ...."
large packets or if you discuss it among the commission for a few moments
and then we can do that.
Schroers: Well we may as well get all the information before we discuss
it.
Hoffman: If you want to follow along... These are in alphabetical order.
The first sheet... The second sheet in that packet shows the phasing.
Essentially we've split the structure in two. At this point, everything to
the north would be the main structure. The swings, the tire swing...would
be in phase 1...
Lash: Is the bid for tonight just phase 1 then?
Hoffman: Correct. Again the price tag on th~s is $12,500.00. The
manufacturers and the manufacturer's representatives' opinion that both of
these play structures...did comply with the CPSC guidelines... Again the
accessibility to the main structure comes vi. the hard surface with
resellient tiles in this location and then the swingset with the hard
surface...in this location. These two being tied together by an asphalt
path which would then lead back to the parking lot and the curb cut...
Number of decks again as shown are 6 decks nn the main structure. Four in
this location and then 2 on the other end... The advanced plaY components
are comprised of 5. Phase 1, the horizontal ladder in this location. Two,
...adult slide... Three, the suspension bridge running across...
Lash: The horizontal ladder, that's the monkey bars right?
..-I
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Pa,k and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 11
Hoffman: Co"ect. A numbe, of simple play components would be one, which
would be the addition of that... The swings shown in phase 1 again a,e a
ti,e swing and then a bucket and a belt seat. This one he,e would be
accessible...
Sch,oe,s: What does the loop pole do?
E,ickson: Is that a fi,emen's pole?
Hoffman: Not a fi,emen's pole but it would be a fi,emen's pole with loops
tacked on at eithe, end fo, climbing. Essentially it access...
E,ickson:
swing is.
And when you',e talking about the swings, I know what a belt
What's a full bucket?
Hoffman:
It's a tot seat.
E,ickson:
Tot seat, al,ight.
Hoffman: Othe, questions on this p,oposal prior to moving forward.
whole plan is effected on the f,ont he,e. Again showing the phasing.
1 and phase 2. Phase 1 would face no,th.
The
Phase
,....,
Koubsky: Todd on those slides, how high a,e up a,e those? I guess a
couple questions. Is this a wood structu,e 0, a metal st,ucture?
Hoffman: Metal st,uctu,e. The poles would of galvanized metal. Then
metal decks coated with poly vinyl.
Koubsky: How high up, how many inches? Whe,e the tunnel slide and the
wave slide and the pole.
Hoffman: The deck the,e is shown at 66 inches. So 4 feet, 8 inches.
Sch,oe,s: Does the bid include eve,ything on phase 1, the ,esellient
surfacing and the ,edwood bo,de, and the entire?
Hoffman: Phase 1 bid would include.
Sch,oe,s: Eve,ything that's on he,e.
Hoffman: Co"ect. Minus the pea g,avel. Pea g,avel would be supplied by
the city and installation supplied by the city...
Sch,oe,s: But the ,esellient su,face, the tough tu,f and all that is
definitely included in this bid?
Hoffman: Co"ect. The rubber tiles would be. The question is on the
conc,ete 0, bituminous which is unde,neath. That would be installed by the
City as a pa,t of ou, installation requi,ements to install.
"" Sch.oe.s: And that's not included in this bid p,ice?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 12
-'
Hoffman: Correct, no it is not. Installation is not included here.
would be a city installed project.
This
Lash: And we're only giving input on phase 1 right?
Hoffman: Correct.
schroers: Okay, you can probably move on to the next piece then.
Hoffman: The second proposal is Flanigan Sales representing Iron Mountain
Forge. If you're familiar with the piece of play structure which is the
newly installed last fall handicapped structure at the north playground...
same manufacturer. Again, you ~an follow the lines. The dotted lines
here...to the north and then phase 2 will be on the south. Flanigan Sales
bid is at $12,295.00. Again, they provided no written statement of
compliance with CPSC or ADA... Delivery within 4 to 6 weeks.
Accessibility to the structure, they did show it in their phase 1, phase 2
plah, whi~h under their opinion in regard to the ADA, does comply.
However, it was reflected that... What they show in this location is the
phasing line comes right down through this location but they had included
the resellient' tiles in phase 2 and not in phase 1. Again, no
accessibility through hard surface is shown. Number of decks is 3 square
decks in phase 1. The 32 and 64 inch deck. Four triangular decks, 16 to
24. They enter onto the play structure and then you cross the bridge...
trinagular decks and eventually they're over...number of play components
being 6. Those 6 being, at the start of the structure...and then bridge
going over...coming out to a horizontal ladder in this location. And again~
those. . .
Schroers: Again, are the poles metal in this?
Hoffman: Correct. All poles were specified as galvanized steel with steel
decks and poly vinyl covering on there.
Schroers: So for all three of the bids that we're ~oing to be looking at,
that's the same?
Hoffman: Correct. There is an alternate. We put it in your packet for
redwood poles to show... instead of the steel poles. We have an awful lot
of redwood equipment already in the city. We do experience some minimal
problems with it with s~lintering and it's my opinion that instead of
putting all our eggs in one basket, spread out our equipment... Park
maintenance has a very good luck in installing the metal play structures'
and they find them to be tough out in the field.
Lash: Did you,'I was kind of looking at this. If you start at the bottom
where the double slide is and the inverted arch climber. So is 32 the size
of the platform?
Hoffman: The height.
Lash: The height, okay. So this little double slide here would be more
for the little kids right?
....."
,.....
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 13
Hoffman: Yep.
Lash: And then a berma bridge, is that an expansion bridge or whatever
they call those things?
Hoffman: It's a bridge crossing.
Lash: Are they those kind of bouncy things?
Hoffman: I'm not exactly sure what a berma bridge is.
Koubsky: Is it going to be the same as the one on the Landscape
Structures?
Hoffman: No, most likely not.
Lash: A berma bridge is 14?
Hoffman: Yep, there it is. Probably not as exciting as a clatter bridge
or a suspension bridge.
.1"""
Lash: It would be more challenging for little kids. Dave and I were just
kind of in a discussion of how we'd hate to see, we were using the word
~."himpy. l.Jhimpy thi ngs goi ng in all the time because they're ki nd of short
lived and I know, there's pros and cons to both I guess. The clatter
bridge is fun. All the kids like those. This would definitely be more
challenging but then it would make it hard for little kids who are over on
the lower things to get over to the higher things. But then that might be
a nice way to set it up too. If they can't hack the crossing, then they
probably can't hack the...
Schroers: It's so low in the way it's constructed, if they can't handle
the chains, they'll just hop off and run across.
Lash: And then what's an 8 foot challenge ladder?
Hoffman: Again that would be.
Koubsky: Horizontal bars?
j
Hoffman: It was specified that a horizontal ladder should be included...
Lash: And then you have the firemen's pole. The loop climber, we already
talked about that. And then these other two slides then are from 64 inches
high?
Hoffman: Yes...
Erickson: Backing up just a second Todd. You said that this wouldn't
really meet the ADA requirements until the second phase was put in?
,....
Hoffman: Correct. For accessibility?
~ricksqn: Right.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 14
Hoffman: Again, the interpretation of the guidelines that ara...talk to
and what they'll tell you...
__,I'
Koubsky: Todd, does this berma bridge count as an advance play component?
Hoffman: Correct.
Lash: How far down, do you happen know off the top of your head how far
along we have phase 2 coming? How many years?
Hoffman: Phase 2, play expansion beyond 1996.
Schroers: Okay, are there any more que~tions on bid from FSI?
Hoffman: Chairman Schroers, we didn't make it quite all the way through.
We're at 6, advanced play components. The number of simple play components
would be 2...panel with a steering wheel. Again the swings are the same
number provided. Three, two tots, bucket seats, and a tire swing. And the
border is all... Are there any questions on the second propo~al? No, I
don't think ~o. I think we can move on to the third. The third proposal
is provided to you by Value Recreation. One note, the omission of this
spiral slide will show ~p ~nder the current price..~so omitted on phase 1
goes into the phase 2 proposal. Quickly running back through again, the
price on this structure is $12,oOO.00...compliance were not provided...
Again, you can note the delivery time is 30 to 45 days. Accessibility to
the main structure is provided. ...included but it does include resellient
tiles... Accessibility to the swings in this location is not addressed. ~
The number of decks, again 3 being counted as square decks. 36 inch deck,
48 inch deck and... Number of poles is 14. Number of advanced play
components would be 4 with the tube slide in this location. The clatter
bridge as shown here and...I may have counted the spiral slide...another
one...
Lash: There's the tree climber, the two slides and the loop ladder. Are
those all the. Tree climber is number 23.
Hoffman: Yeah, that would be a simple component.
Lash: That would be simple?
Hoffman: We have 3 advanced components in this proposal and then the tree
climber... Moving to the swings as shown in phase 1. The total allotment
for swings in this proposal and that would be a belt swing, bucket seat and
a tire swing. Again, depending on the...border is 266. That's a double
stacked. 6 x 6 is at a nominal width.
Koubsky: I guess on this one Todd, the bridge isn't being counted as an
advance play structure right? Where on the other two prdposals the
suspension bridge and the berma bridge are being counted.
Hoffman: Yes.
this location.
In this one it would be counted. We have the...slide in
The bridge...
Koubsky: The wave slide, is that not on there?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 15
II""
Hoffman: The wave slide didn't show up.
Lash: There's a jet slide, a tube slide.
Bill Jananosky: You don't have both the slides on the picture there.
Hoffman: That's what it is 'in this location.
Bill Jananosky: There'd be four of the advanced play structures. And
that's not if you count the bridge.
Hoffman: The wave slide isn't ~hown on your or else my 17 did not show up
on the transparency. So the chart is what...
Erickson:
that open?
don't know.
Then Todd on the 36 inch triangle off the horizontal loop, is
Are they climbing and jumping off that or is there some, I
Koubsky:
platform.
What's the safety factor? How high can you have an open
Right there'..
Hoffman: Right there, I believe there's a separate there...
Koubsky: Okay, so there's a rung where they can climb up to that?
,...,.
Bill Jananosky: They can step up to that. They can't reach their feet up
that high. But...
Schroers: Okay. Any other questions or comments?
:Erickson: The swings are included i~ phase 1? The tire swing and the
bucket and the strap?
Hoffman: I'd take that to be true...
Erickson: And the spring animals are in phase 2?
Hoffman: Correct. This is...include these swings in phase 1...
Schroers: But that is not the...system that's coming in.
Hoffman: Just an example of the product.
Koubsky: For?
Hoffman: Playworld Systems. Value Recreation.
Andrews: My question is, how long has Value Recreation been in Chanhassen?
How long have you been doing business here?
Bill Jananosky: 2 1/2 years.
.'"
Schroers: Okay, Todd. The correlation between Sheet 1, Sheet 2 and sheet
3. We don't necessarily need to follow suit or stick with a particular
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 -Page 16
pattern on that. I mean for sheet 3, we can pretty much decide which way
we want to go without having an effect on 1 or 2.
....,,/
Hoffman: Absolutely. Sheet 3 would be awarded on your perception of which
proposal provides the most product. The most play value for the money.
Lash: Mr. Jananosky, did you come up with whatever you were working on
over there?
Bill Jananosky:
Com!Tlission?
...a few comments. Would you like me to address the
Schroers: Yeah, we're ready, please.
Bill Jananosky: I've got a flyer for you all. As Todd mentioned, we're
right across the street above Merlyn's Hardware. We've been here for 2 1/2
years now. Our primary line of business is Playworld Systems here. They
probably count for 80% or 90% of our revenue activity. Playworld Systems
as you can tell by the photo is a very impressive, very nice, high quality
product line. At this particular juncture, I would be in a position to
prove that it's the highest quality of all three lines that you are
entertaining tonight. Now it would probably take me an hour and a half to
walk you through all the products and explain all the advantages and I
realize we don~t have that so we'll have, at one point here maybe I'll skim
through a couple things but for the most part we'll have to leave some of
that discussion for another time, if it's necessary. Playworld Systems has
been in business for 35 years. They've always offered steel systems. They--,
have the best safety record of any manufacturer in the industry. They've
never had a serious injury on any of their equipment. All they do is
playgrounds. They focus very well on it and I honestly believe they're the
best. As a matter of fact, I left another company to go to work for these
people because I thought they had a better produ~t and the company that' I
left was Landscape Structures. Earl F. Anderson' and Associates represents
Landscape Structures too out of Delano. Now Landscape Structures, as far
as I know, represents possibly exclusively all the playgrounds that the
city has purchased in any recent years from what I've seen. From what I
can tell. They're a very good company but Playworld Systems is just a tad
better. And that's not why I left. I left because I was the National
Sales Manager and I was traveling all the time and it was really hard on
the family life. I was never home. Fortunately I was able to find another
company with similar philosophies and attitudes and concerns and to work
with here, Playworld Systems so that all worked out. But nevertheless, I'm
probably the most knowledgeable person, at least in Chanhassen in terms of
playground equipment and making valid comparisons between these guidelines.
Obviously I've seen every structure in the city many times over and
inspected them all many times over and bit my tongue hundreds of times in
th~ last ~ 1/2 years. I regret not coming before the Commission before
this. I'm not the most aggressive person in that regard. I was trying to
work through proper channels. It finally got to the point where I wasn't
getting anywhere and I felt maybe if I could come meet with you folks,
you'd have a better appreciation for who we are and what we do. We did not
just falloff the pumpkin wagon. I've been doing this for 8 years. When I
was a National Marketing Director for Landscape Structures, I spent 3 1/2
years inspecting playgrounds on a national level. I served on the National""""
,....
"
,,-.,
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 17
Safety Commission. I've served on the ASPM...Safety Commission. I was the
head of the product development committee for Landscape Structures. Right
now I'm the head of the product development committee for Playworld
Systems. I eat, live and breathe playground equipment and I've been a
little disappointed that I haven't been able to be more helpful to the city
of Chanhassen. I basically have not been able to get involved for some
reason. So what we would like to do is, not only propose our equipment to
you but also propose that somehow we strike a stronger relationship here
and you can take advantage of our abilities and we can help you with your
parks and help make them safer, more proper and more cost effective play
areas and hopefully give you a little more bang for your dollar as well as
a better maintenance situation. Being so convenient here, across the
street, we have a parts inventory. If for some reason anything should
requi re mai ntena nce or parts. We're' in the position to make it available
as easy as Kent can in the hardward store there. So if any larger part's
necessary, there's a safety issue involved, we typically fly those parts in
overnight ,because once we hear the word safety, that's a buzz word to us
and that means it's got to b& dealt with immediately. You don't leave
safety hazards to linger on and on and on. I think the city could benefit
tremendously, not only by getting involved with a higher quality product
line, but also allowing us to help you with regard to what's appropriate in
terms ofCPSC guidelines. What's safe on the city's parks and what is not
safe. What's appropriate for ADA and all those types of issues because
that's all we do. We deal with it all the time and I've been involved in a
national level. So we feel we're quite knowledgeable in these subject
matters. At this particular juncture there's approximately 2 dozen safety
hazards in the city parks that have been lingering for many years. That do
not conform to 1981 guidelines, let alone the 1991 guidelines. Obviously
more then has surfaced in the last 6 or 8 months since the 1991 guidelines
were introduced just last November. I'm talking about things like
entrapment areas and... When I see these in,other cities, obviously I
don't say a whole heck of a lot to anybody. Nobody likes to hear a
negative comments on these issues and they think...this, that and the other
thing. But when my own children and my neighbors children and people we
care about are playing on this, it cqncerns us quite a great deal more than
that and obv iousl y we feel l'i ke we f i naIl y have to come forward and say
something about this. I guess that's an issue separate from what we're
dealing with here tonight though. Maybe I should confine myself to
discussing the positive attributes of our play design here. This design
includes much more expensive components than do the other designs. the
intent here is to try to make it a little more exciting. A little more
challenging. More interesting. It also improves the upper body events
which was required in the bids. The second proposal does not include any
upper body events at all. I think any playground should have at least one
upper body event on it. Normally 2 or 3 in a playground this siz~. We
just went with one because that's what was called for. In this case, the
upper body event is the ring bridge and the best picture in this flyer,
without asking each of you to page through 110 page catalog, the best
picture of the ring bridge is right in the very center of this flyer. Just
to the right side of the crease you can see those triangular shaped rings.
Well that's the 1992 version of a horizontal ladder. And that only has one
beam down the center of it rather than one beam on each side of it. They
go to a larger beam down the center. The reason for that is...get up on
top of that and sit up there, they can literally eat their lunch up there
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 18
on top of these horizontal ladd,es. And it creates an unnecessary height
situation. On playground height is like speed is on a highway. You try to
avoid unnecessary height. It's one thing to do it cautiously to try to
create a-little extra excitement but it's another thing to create
unnec~ssary height situations so our horizontal ladders utilize those run,
triangular shaped run affairs. The tube slides you'll see on the same page
there, rather than b~ing round are oval shaped. The reason they're oval
shaped is it allows the children to lift their heads up a little bit to ~ee
where they're going'so when they get to the bottom, they don't just fly out
and land on the ground. They can actually prepare themselves for the exit.
Also, the exit section on this has a long deceleration zone to allow them
to slow down and often times stop right at the end. Their feet drop down,
they get up and walk away. Nobody loses control type of situation. The
seams on the joints of the tube slide are overlapping flange joints. It's
a much better seam than what the City's been accustomed to on tube slides.
Also, the panel on the top ,of the tube slide has a long groove across'the
top of a hand hold for the kids so they've got a place top put their hands
so they can hang onto something and lift their feet up and actually get
into position. The other panels don't have that on theTe so it's a lot
more functional plan or slide in that regard from a user friendly
standpoint. Yes sir.
--'
Schroers: I have a question back on the horizontal loop'ladder. ATe those
loops welded to the bar?
Bill Jananosky: Yes.
--'
SchroeTs: So they don't swing. They don't move. They are locked into
position.
Bill Jananosky: Yeah. If they're moving, they're probably too similar to
what we would call a hand track or a ring bridge. Where the rings are
intended to swing. Swing ac~oss from one to the other. Also, if I can
move...phase'2. Notice this upper body...that's as high as you'd want to
come off of, as high a deck as you'd want to come off of because any higher
than that and you're probably inviting the children more so to get up on
top of it rather than hang from underneath it. Unnecessary invitation to
get up high. Again, our city is full of playgrounds that have upper body
events coming off of 4 foot and 5 foot high decks. We're just inviting the
kids to getup on top of these things. The brand new one that just went in
at City Center Park here has those on it. On each end there's a deck at
the same height as the horizontal ladder. Just invite the kids to get out
on top of that. So we avoided that issue. The spiral slide is a $2,500.00
item. That's a fourth of our budget here for phase 1 so it's an expensive
item but it's a favorite item. And the swinging bridge is an $1,800.00
item as opposed to a $400.00 chain bridge.
Andrews: I'm confused on the spiral slide. Is that omitted or not omitted
in phase 1?
Bill,Jananosky: It's part of phase 2. I'm sorry, I guess I'm addressing
the issue aS,a whole here. Maybe I should just be looking at phase 1.
Andrews: That's correct, please.
.....",
I""'"
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 19
Berg: Now, that will be added where it's seen there in phase 2?
Bill Jananosky: Yes, although I didn't realize phase 2 was 4 years behind.
So I guess we'll just have to wait 4 years to put that...on there. Phase 1
includes the rubber pad. Now our rubber tiles don't require concrete or
asphalt underneath them because of the way they interlock, it isn't
necessary. You just use a good stable subsurface like a Class V or
something.
Schroers: Does it stay level?
Bill Jananosky: If you use a proper surface underneath it like just a
Class V. Something that won't shift. Something that's reasonabl~ stable.
Stable it will stay in place.
Schroers: And the locking mechanism also stays in place and there's no
warping or coming loose?
Bill Jananosky: No. There's three different...you can go depending on
your preference. We can go with cable, stainless steel rods or dowls. Or
if you want to, you could glue it down to asphalt. Or concrete. But it
isn't necessary. And that's something of course we'd keep a close eye on
for you. To make sure that there wasn't any.
,.......
Schroers: Todd did say in the initial presentation that you are willing to
do ongoing maintenance as needed.
Bill Jananosky: Happily. You bet you. Sure.
Schroers: For an unlimited...
Bill Jananosky: Well as long as we're in Chanhassen. Because I can't
promise you that indefinitely. Certainly as long as we're in Chanhassen,
we have a special interest. We would want to bend over backwards to keep
this playground as safe and functional as possible. We have no intentions
of moving. We've been here for 12 years. I'm not only a resident of
Chanhassen. We als0 have our business here so we're very active in the
community.
schroers:
clients.
It would probably be a handy selling point for you also.
You could say, well we have...right here.
For
Bill Jananosky: Yeah, it'd be very handy to have something in town. That's
why we feel if we rolled up our sleeves here and gone after this. Interms
of pricing and discounts. Any other questions on...
Berg: I'm sorry, maybe I missed it. How high off the ground is the loop
ladder?
I""'"
Bill Jananosky: About 6 1/2 feet. Now we've got...data and depending on
which age group you want to make it appropriate for, we can vary that an
inch or 2 or 3 one way or the other...probably want to make but depending
on how you want to orient that. My i~pression is that that first phase is
for the older children $0 we might want to make it age appropriate for the
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 20
4th thru 5th graders. 8, 9, 10 year'olds type of thing. The younger
children don't usually get involved with the upper body events. That's why
they also include it in part of phase 1 for the older kids.
,...."
Schroers: Okay.
Bill Jananosky: There's a pathway for the play structure but ~here isn't
for the swingset. A rubber pathways for swi'ngsets are very controversial.
Very few people bother to do them. I was surprised to hear Todd promote
that because 3 weeks ago in his office he was telling me all we had to do
w~s eliminate the timber border and that would qualify for passine with the
ADA. Granted, nobody can interpret ADA 100% accurately without a crystal
ball because of course you have to test the Disabilities Act but I think if
you talk to the people on the committee and you talk to the chair people
who we have working ,for us on a consulting basis, they will tell you the
intent of these rules and based on what we hear from them directly, with
their intent to what they're trying to accomplish here, we design
playgrounds accordi ngl y. A'nd so this compl ied with the intent is our
position and somehow I failed to include a document to that effect but
would be happy to do that. It also of course complies to all theCPSC
guidelines. Their equipment complied, with the guidelines last year before
the guidelines were even int~oduced. That was because they have 5 people
working on the national committee.
Schroers: I have one or maybe two specific questions that maybe you could
answer for me. How are we getti ng the most bang for ,our buck when we're
getting 4 advanced play components in phase 1 as opposed to the other two ~'
where they are, EFA has 5 and FSI has 6?
Bill Jananosky: Well I don't know exactly how you define advanced play
components but these certainly are more expensive.
Schroers: I think what they're talking in advance is maybe both expensive
but also more challenging and also something that is more attractive to the
kids. More of a major component.
Bill Jananosky: Sure. Well, the swinging bridge is an expensive item. A
steel swinging bridge like that is an $1,800.00 item. That's almost 20% of
the budget right there. And it generally is considered to be one of the
more favored items. This is oriented so that a lot of disabled children,
once they come up here, they also will be able to cross the swinging bridge
but they would not be able to cross the balance beam bridge. We could have
done that and saved $1,000.00 and put 2 or 3 more play events on there
because the average play event, the less expensive ones you've seen are
like $300.00 a piece or something in that range. But this seems to be one
of the more favored events in playground. Generally when you do a
structure, this overall size seems to typically include a swinging bridge.
Now the only exception to that is some people when they do the designs...
proposals like this and they have a tendency to change their priorities and
get involved with lesser expensive components...earning more points. This
wasn't the basis for this design in our case here.
Schroers:
guess I do.
Okay. Any commission members have any particular thoughts?
I c,an say why that in the past we've gone with Landscape
I
.....,,;
,....
".....,
,...
Park ~nd Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 21
Structures and Earl F. Anderson. For one thing, they have been more local.
We have had good experience with them. We do think that they have a good
product. We like their design. We felt like we were getting as much for
our money there as we were anywhere else. And in some instances we thought
we were going to get more for our money and better service and we very much
like the fact that they are fairly accessible without having to go to
Missouri or out to the East Coast or something like that for parts.
However, part of our program here is to the first...somewhat and some of
the advantages that you have pointed out I think are valid and I would not
be opposed to going with Value Recreation. The price is basically coming
in at exactly the same and I think it would be good for us to have some
different types and different brands and without doing so, it's hard for us
to evaluate what. we want to do in the future. I guess I would be in favor
of going with Value Recreation for the third item.
Andrews: Is that a motion?
Schroers: I'll make that a motion unless we have more.
Lash: I have a comment. It has nothing to do with any of the suppliers.
It just has to do with plans in general. I don't want to claim that I'm an
expert at watching kids on the playground but I've spent a lot of time. I
mean I spend time every day watching kids play on the playground so I see
the kinds of things kids like and the kinds of things that they don't like.
And I don't want to see us get too hung up on slides. Kids like slides but
it seems like the things they're waiting in line to do are to climb. And
I know that kids can climb on the slide and that's wh~t they want to do.
They want to climb on the outside of the slide. They want to climb from
the bottom of the slide up and at school we have a rule you can't climb o.n
the slide which then means it has one purpose only and that's just to go
down. So you know at school it's different than at a neighborhood park but
some of these plans that I see we get so hung up on providing so many
different kinds of slides and I think a couple of slides are fine but I
like the climbing apparatus. There are so many fun things out now that
kids can climb on that I'd like to see us focus a little bit more on some
of the climbing things and get away from quite so many slides. I know just
as an example, because I have yours open and there's 6 different v~rieties
of slides shown in the two phases and once we get to phase 2, whatever we
choose, I'd like to have us look a little more carefully at how many slides
we have.
Bill Jananosky: Generally you want to design a playground, like this may
be the only play structure that those neighborhood kids play on and
therefore hopefully they develop all their muscle groups equally well. So
you want to cover all the bases and I concur with you 100%. Although,
please bear in mind that what goes up must come down and so you end up,
there's a tendency to provide an equal number ~f entrances and exits which
typically the entrances are climbing events and the exits are typically
sliding events. Although some of the climbers do go both ways. For what
it's worth, the Playworld Systems also has the strongest warranty program
by far. It's a 25 year warranty on the cl~mps which is a very integral
part of the system. 15 year warranty on the posts. 10 year warranties on
the decks. It's a very strong... Believe me, it hasn't been...equipment.
A lot of the larger cities that have urban vandalism problems tend to favor
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 22
Playworld Systems because it is so heavy duty. It always has been a very
rugged product line.
~
Berg: Have you supplied any systems in this area anywhere?
Bill Jananosky: Well let's see. There's one at Scenic Heights Elementary
which isn't too far from here. It's just over behind TH 101 and Excelsior
"Blvd. over there. As a matter of fact, they're getting their second one
'now that's going to be ~oing in in about 2 days. They're real happy with
~he first one. So that's probably the closest one.
Berg: Are any of the Commissioners acquainted with that system?
Bill Jananosky: This is a steel system. I'm sorry.
Lash: That's alright.
Bill Jananosky: The first design by the way was a redwood system. They
did not bid that in steel. That was just purely bid as redwood. And also
that first design has two independent structures. when you break a
structure down into two independent structures like that and you make one
more age appropriate for the younger kids rather than the older kids. What
happens is the younger kids don't want to play on the smaller play
structure. They want to go to the bigger one so you end up spending a lot
of money' on a structure that nobody's going to use. Also, both of those
structures have ADA entrances on them. They both have 5 or 6 decks that
have, serve really no purpose other than moving disabled people up onto the~
higher platforms. Why pay that cost twice? I mean you don't get much play
value out of those types of designs.
Lash: One of the more simpler items that we can ever get that I think is
always just a huge success is the firemen's pole. For some reason the kids
just love those and it's something that makes them really, they're always
afraid to try it the first time and then all of a sudden they get the
courage to do it, and then they find out ho~ much fun it is and you can't
get them off of it. No, there isn't one on there. There's on one of the
other ones.
Bill Jananosk~: We decided to go with the 3 foot or 4 foot high decks. If
you get 5 or 6 feet high, it gets to be a long slide and you get some
broken ankles and that some of those kinds of issues.
Schroers: Okay, what we're going to be recommending here is on phase 1 and
we can add onto phase 2 or change things if we don't like the way it's
shaping up. ,If we feel that we do need more climbing.
Koubsky: One of the problems I have with all three designs is swings. You
kno~ we've had discussion on here that playgrounds need swings and it's
probably the way this was bid. But in each of these there are two swings
and two of them, it's one belt and one tot swing. Two boys going over
there to swing together, or two girls, can't swing 'on these because there's
one limiting thing and that's the tot swing so you've only got one
preschool or school aged person swinging at these facilities at a time.
And then the FSI, you just have two tot swi ngs. So you don't have any ....""
PaYk and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 23
~
swinging capabilities in the FSI at all. I don't know if we can change
that but I think if there's any way. Tot swing you need but I think in a
m~n~mum, on anything we put in, we should have two belt swings. Just
because friends go there and friends swing.
Lash: And even if it's a parent...
Koubsky: Families have more than one. Right, parents swing.
Lash: Although the tir& swing, if there's two kids, they're going to go on
the tire swing anyway.
Schroers: Tire swings are very popular. I don't know how we would do that
without maybe the addition of another belt swing but I don't think that you
would want to eliminate either the one bucket or the one tire. We would
maybe want to try to just add an additional belt swing rather than
eliminate one or the other two. Do you happen to know what additional
costs would be for one more belt swing?
Bill Jananosky: Instead of?
Schroers: Not instead of. Just in addition to. Just one more.
Andrews: Put another bay down.
JIll"'"'
Bill Jananosky: Yeah, ,we'd have to get another bay and I'm going to guess
another bay with two swin~s on it, because they typically support two
swings. The second bay is less expensive than the first bay because you
can utilize the same center post and the same crossover section. So the
first bay might be $800.00. A second bay I'm going to guess is around
$600.00.
Lash: So it'd be another $600.00. To add two more swings.
Schroers: I don't know that we can do that now on phase 1. I mean what we
have to do is make a recommendation on what is proposed for phase 1. And
then if we wanted to add, we would have to ~o that in. phase 2. And include
that into the bid.
Bill Jananosky: You could make phase 2, 2 or 3 weeks from now
make this all phase 3 if you're anxious to get them on there.
an advantage to doing that in the same time that we're putting
border and you're putting the surfacing material in there.
and then
There'd be
in the
Schroers: Okay, so then in order to deal with this in a somewhat timely
manner, we just have to focus on what we have available here for us on
phase 1 and do the comparison of the three different vendors here. I guess
that I would be willing to formulate a motion unless there's more.
Lash: I was just looking at the picture of the tree climber in here.
,.....
Bill Jananosky: Oh, we might have to go to the catalog for that. The tree
climber is like a, yeah. Oh you've got it there. Why don't you try page
14.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 24
Koubsky: Todd, do you have any background on this berma bridge as far as
safety or whatever? I've never seen a chain bridge like that before. That
would be on the FSI proposal.
....-I
Hoffman: No background that I,can call. No. p~rsonal visit to a playground
where I participated.
Koubsky: Is it relatively new?
Bill Jananosky: No. We provide this also.
Lash: Here's a picture of their chain bridge which is different. I like
this one better. What would be the difference in cost if we were to do a
chain bridge instead of the.
Bill Jananosky: Swinging bridge?
Lash: Yes.
Koubsky: Is that fair?
Lash: I don't know. The other guy has a chain bridge.
Koubsky: Yeah, but the other manufacturer...
Bill Jananosky: $1,000.00, something in that range but it's going to cut
out that second phase for anybody who's handicapped. Potentially. ...."
Hoffman: Chairman Schroers, if I could just comment on a few of Bill's
comments prior to moving forward. In his initial comments you talk, you
reference, just for clarification sake, the FSI proposal. That it did not
provide an upper arm, upper body. I would think that the 8 foot horizontal
ladder, just for clarification, would probably be considered an upper body
type of apparatus.
Koubsky: They all have the horizontal ladders.
Hoffman: Secondly, Bill and I have had conversations in regard to the
~afety standards which the new CPSC and the old guidelines as well. I
recognize that our playgrounds do have safety problems. The manufacturer,
or Earl F. Anderson is currently out in field doing, conducting field
visits and coming back with recommendations to the city so they are as well
following up on the new CPSC guidelines and going through each play
structure in town. I feel it's certainly not only important in our city
but in all cities. I feel our play structures which we maintain in the
city of Chanhassen are essentially safe. We certainly do have some areas
where we can make them improve their safety and we're working towards that.
However, I know that some other communities with older equipment which we
have worked tremendously at taking out and replacing ~s the commission
knows, the project at City Center Park was essentially a project to improve
safety and to expand play availability so the City's very interested in
doing that. Third comment was on ADA and certainly as I mentioned earlier,
I was not specifically promoting Earl F. Anderson's provision of two but
simply pointing that out to the Commission. I as well am confused by what ~
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 -Page 25
~
the American with Disabilities Act means for prOV1Slon. We need to keep it
in mind but it means some common sense in regard to accessibility and as
well we need to keep in mind that it not only means wheelchair accessible.
Somewhere in the vicinity of less than 1% of people who are considered
handicapped are in wheelchairs. There's a variety of other handicaps which
people have and those types of persons would come and use these facilities
as well. However, the CPSC does callout, or excuse me, the ADA. for a like
sensations meaning they would like to see you provide reasonable access to
like sensation being a set of swings or a main structure or if you put in a
couple of spring animals, if one of those isn't accessible, then you're not
providing like sensations to all persons. Those would be my comments in
that regard. You've obviously heard a presentation from one of the
manufacturers this evening. If you would like to make a choice, that's at
your diseretion. If you would like to hear from other manufacturers ~nd
question them as well, I would be happy to arrange for that.
Schroers: Okay, thanks Todd. Are there any commissioners that have any
particular feelings in regard to Todd's comment? How do you feel about
asking another manufacturer to come in?
",......
Erickson: I personally think that Todd makes a good point about
mentioning, possibly another manufacturer coming in. The nice thing about
having the gentleman here tonight was just to fill in some of the gaps in
the stuff here and I think he that pretty well. The CPSC compliance and
the ADA compliance answered some questions there also on the delivery time.
And a little bit about the play structure. Clearing up some of those
components. I don't think we got extra information above and beyond EFA so
much as just filling in the gaps for Value Recreation. That's my view. I
guess I don't find it necessary to have another EFA come in. They had a
pretty complete package. Or FSI.
Andrews: I'd like to make a comment in that I think if we recommend a
vendor other than EFA, that as part of our recommendation that ~e require
that that vendor does provide compliance documents before they are
considered to be a successful bidder for the project.
Schroers: I think that's a good point.
Koubsky: Yeah, they at least meet all the requirements of the
specifications.
Andrews: I think they ought to provide a written document that they are
guaranteeing that they are providing or have met the requirements. Not
just that the documents because I think that's what EFA did right? They
are saying that they are making the guarantee themselves. Not just
providing.
Hoffman: Correct.
,...
Koubsky: Those are items that staff should address. As far as I'm
concerned with bidding, if you don't meet the requirements of the bid,
you're out. I mean you layout the requirements for bid specification. It
should be up to staff or some party to review those bids and bids that
aren't in out.. If you have to rebid then after because you don't have
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 26
sufficient manufacturers who have complied with your bid, at least you've
made your point that we are not going to accept non complete bids. And I
have no problem with throwing out all bids. Making them rebid if there's
only one manufacturer who meets the specifications but I think it's very
important for us not to set a precedence in accepting bids that aren't
complete and then say okay, well we'll accept your bid now 'but now you have
to make sure you comply with the bid specifications. That's my thought on
bidding processes. We shouldn't see them if they're not complete.~ut
here we are.
....,.",
Bill Jananosky~ My impression is that the vendors supply state~ents
stating that they concur with, their proposal concurs with ADA and CPsc.
The intent there is that if for some reason it ever turns out that it does
not, you've got something to fall back on. And you can contact me or
whoever and say hey Bill, we've got a problem here. You said this
conforms. Somebody says it does not. W~ need you to stand behind your
equipment and stand behind your statement and help us out on this. Get
this solved for us which I think makes great sense. Likewise, I would
think a supplier that's supplying the city with so many playgrounds that do
not conform with the 1981 safety guidelines should be asked to do what they
can do to help bring those guidelines up to at least, those playgrounds up
to the 1981 standards. I'm saying that as a taxpayer, not as a vendor
here.
Koubsky: Yeah, and those are issues that it sounds like it's being worked
on and we'll take those up with staff I guess.
....,#
Schroers: Okay but I guess what we are asking for here is that the ADA
requirements be addressed in writing. That your product does meet the
standards to the best of...
Bill Jananosky: ...had that on the drawing and when we, when our office
girl cut this out and pasted this on here, she cut that off the drawing.
They put that on all the drawings that they do that conform to ADA and they
all do to CPSC. They wouldn't let them leave their house. So that just
happened to be cut off the drawing when she glued it onto the board here.
Schroers: Okay.
Lash: I'm going to be real honest here and when I look ~t the plans, I
certainly lean towards wanting to give business to local residents so I'm
very torn. I would like to do that but in all honesty I like the FSI plan
better. I don't know why. I think it looks like it's more fun to me and
it-looks like it provides more. And I know lo~ically that it's the
difference in the two kinds of bridges. You said the two kinds of bridges
amounts to about $1,000.00 so I'm sure for $l,~OO.OO.
Bill Jananosky: The sprial slide is $2,500.00.
Lash: So I know the reason for it. I guess I am interested in glvlng a
local vendor a shot and see how it works out. And if it looks like we
don't get the service or the equipment or the return on our money that we
hav~ in the past from other vendors, then I wouldn't hesitate at all to go
back to one of the other vendors. ~
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 27
,.....
Schroers: Well I think that's what you're saying is, what I was trying to
say before. Unless we try a new manufacturer, a new product, a new vendor,
we won't know. We don't have any real valid way within our system to make
comparisons and evaluations if we're dealing with the same people all the
time. I personally am happy with Landscape Structures. I think that they
have a nice product and to my knowledge we haven't had problems with their
components functioning and the kids seem to like them a lot. But we are
also not talking a tremendous amount of money. I mean there's no
difference in the amount of money between Value Recreation and EFA and just
a very small difference between FSI so I don't think that the money factor
in this particular instance makes a lot of difference.
Lash: It still looks on the plans like you're getting more for your money
from FSI. I can't help but get that impression from looking at the plan.
Bill Jananosky: You would have preferred lesser expensive components and
more of them.
Koubsky: I think what's desireable there is two areas. One, you have an
area for smaller people and one you have an area for larger people. You
have the height, the 64 inches. You have the upper body horizontal and I
think that's the appeal there is the two separate areas.
.1""'"
Lash: Are you talking about on the FSI?
Koubsky: Right. Well actually for both FSI and Landscape. It's similar.
Bill Jananosky: Well this is polarized also for age appropriateness. The
FSI design does not have ADA in phase 1 and I don't think you want to wait
until 1996 for ADA.
Lash: Right. That's the down side for them definitely. Because we're not
even saying 1996 but we're saying beyond 1996. We don't even have it in
our budget yet. So we don't know when this is going to go in for sure. I
guess with that I'd be ready to make a motion. Is that what you want to
do Jim?
Andrews: Yeah, I want to say let's try something here and see if it will
fly.
Lash: I'd like to move that we recommend to City Council that we go with
Value Recreation's bid for phase 1 for Herman Field in the amount not to
exceed $12,500.00. And to meet all the specifications.
Schroers: Is there a second?
Andrews: I'll second that.
Lash moved, Andrews seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to City Council to accept the bid for phase 1 playground
equipment for Herman Field Park from Value Recreation in an amount not to
exceed $12,500.00 and that Value Recreation meet all the specifications in
a timely manner. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
,....
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 28
. ,
Erickson: Excuse me, I have one other thing. You're going to send
something in writing besides your word, which I do trust, on that
compliance with ADA and CPSC to Todd.
~
Koubsky: That's to meet the specs. And I guess my ~omment to staff is,
bidders should meet specifications. That's why we write them. If they
don't meet specifications, I think they should be rejected and the project
should be rebid.
Andtews: I agree with Dave on that. A bid that doesn't meet specs is not
a bid. The other comment I wanted to make Todd, and I don't know if we can
do anything here. I feel the opportunity here to squeeze $600.00 out of
someplace to put on another bay to get two swings is something that I'd
like to see us try to do. Before this thing goes up. So I don't know if
we can get something in the next meeting. Will this be put up this fall
yet or probably next spring?
Hoffman: Hopefully this fall. That's why the 30 9ay timeline on delivery
was.
Schroers: So you want it on phase 1 rather than phase 2?
Andrews: Phase 1 1/2.
Schroers: It's probably be easier to add in on phase 2.
Andrews: From a bid standpoint here it would not be proper for us to tack""""",,
on another item onto the bid without opening it to all bidders again. So I
guess I would say that we can look at this as a phase 1 1/2 special
opportunity. Now that we've selected a vendor, it would only make sense to
continue with the same vendor, which I guess is part of the secret of this
business of selling playground equipment. But I think for $600.00 that
swingsets are always the item that we seem want to put up and for $600.00
we can get two more. I think we're going to want to do that.
Lash: And I don't want to wait for phase 2 because we have no idea when.
Andrews: No, I don't either.
Schroers: Well I think that we could probably steal $600.00 out of the
-budget somewhere.
Lash: Do you think we can?
Hoffman: We'll bring that back to the next meeting.
Schroers: The vendor would probably be willing to give us a real bargain
and a half.
Lash: Another thing that I'd like to say. I think I recall, I don't think
we've bought playground equipment like this for a long time it doesn't seem
like but it seems in the past that we had mOTe input into what was actually
going in. And I would kind of like to revert back to that process where we
chew around what we think we'd like to see in there. Make a list of some ~
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 29
I"""
of the items we'd like to see and we pass it onto you. You put it
together. You send it onto the vendors and say, we'd like some of these
things in there and whatever else you think would make it nice and this
can't go over a certain amount of money and then let them come back with a
plan. But giving us mOre initial input into it.
Hoffman: A couple of comments. My thought process did pass over that with
the workload which the Commission has recently had. I threw that right out
the window and went with what we traditionally have specified in the play
structures. A couple of clarifications before we move on. I would like
Bill to clarify the number of tiles and the type. He talked about three
separate types that will be provided with this structure and then if the
quote for, the verbal quote for $600.00 for the two additional swings, if
that quote is valid.
Bill Jananosky: That's valid. I'll commit to that. It was an educated
guess but I'll commit to that. $600.00 on that. You need the ADA statement
from me and it is 12 tiles.
Hoffman: The dimensions are?
Bill Jananosky: Two foot squares so you have a 4 foot wide pathway which
is what ADA likes to see is the 4 foot wide pathway.
JII"'"
Schroers: And the type of tile. What connector are you going to use?
Bill Jananosky: Recycled rubber tires.
Schroers: But you talked about different connecting mechanisms.
Bill Jananosky: Oh yeah, I don't know. There's three. There's the cable
or there's steel rods or dowls.
Schroers: Which is the best?
Bill Jananosky: The dowls seem to be the best...going to put a wood border
around the rubber tiles themselves. Which causes a whole new set of
concerns because then you have a wood border that falls out in the play
str~cture so generally the dowls is the best way to go. To tie everything
together it becomes one monogymous piece that's just too heavy to move.
Andrews: Is there a difficulty if we were to glue this to an asphalt or
concrete?
Bill Jananosky: No, it wOrks fine. They do it all the time.
Andrews: I guess to me that seems like that would ,be a better solution
because you don't have a potential of moving a subsurface. Your Class V or
whatever you use.
,-..
Lash: I have a question. If you have an all asphalt surface there
already, why do you have to have the tiles?
Hoffman: Thair reseilency from the bounce.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 30
Schroers: A cushion.
...../
Lash: Isn't thi~ just a path that gets up to the play area?
Hoffman: It's still within'the play zone or the fall zone.
Bill Jananosky: To answer your question on the Class V. 'We just did a
2,800 square foot play area for the city of St. Paul and that was all
rubber.~.and there was no asphalt or concrete underneath that anywhere.
Schroers: Well yeah, that's the thing. You just did it. Where's it going
to be 10 years from? That's the bottom line. That's what we need to know.
Hoffman: That's a different material than what is specified here. That
was a support...
Schroers: See I'm somewhat familiar with these type of things and all of
the'synthetic surfaces that I've seen up to this point have all been glued.
So I'm somewhat skeptical.
Bill jananosky: Well...would be a guarantee permanent where there is some
question of durability without the concrete or asphalt underneath that.
Erickson: If we're going to do it anyways, let's go ahead and glue it on
top of the asphalt.
Schroers: I would think that we would want to.
...."
Hoffman: Then my question would be, the tiles. Does that include the
adhesiv~ oris that an additional charge?
Bill Jananosky: That would include the adhesive.
Schroers: There you go. I thought it would. We'd better move on here.
This is costing you money.
Bill Jananosky: Thank you very much for your time.
Koubsky: One comment. Like adding these swings as a phase 2. I think
that's great. I thi nk if we see, and there's nothi ng wrong with calli ng it
phase 2. The neighbors see something new go in, oh they're adding
something. I don't think it all has to be an all or nothing for phase 2 or
phase 3. If you see a fire pole somewhere or some of the facilities don't
have the horizontal ladders, and want to put it in, call it phase 2. It
doesn't matter. We should be able to put components, add onto these. It's
fairly cost effective.. You know small components. You just keep putting
something into the different parts without having to add a $15,000.00
phase. $600.00 or'if after construction, maybe $1,000.00 set of swings or
a $1,000.00 horizontal ladder is great.
Schroers: Well what I really thought would be of benefit going with Value
in this instance is that they are going to have something right here where
their business is located that they're going to want to be able to show to
other perspective purchasers and my idea is that they're going to go out of ~
",....
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 31
their way to do a particularly good job here on this one. We don't have
much to lose on this one I don't believe.
1993 PARK ACQUISITION AND DEVELOPMENT CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM. FINAL
DRAFT.
Hoffman: Thank you Chairman Schroers. Park Commissioners, this is a
fairly detailed document. It is the second time through so we should be
able to complete it in somewhat of a timely fashion. You have a detail
sheet which is exactly what we need to come out of this meeting with:
That's the pages that would be 2 or 3 of your packet. It details there
what has been pulled out of the 5 year capital improvement program for the
fiscal year 1993. Totals that at a subtotal of $142,050.00. However then
as noted in the report, if you add on the $25,000.00 reserve which was
talked about for City Center Park matching funds, you come up with a total
exceeding the $150,000.00 target budget by the amount of $17,050.00. So
there do need to be some adjustments with the budget. You either need to
reduce some of the specific items which are listed there, or reduce the new
reserve of $25,000.00 for City Center Park matching funds with the school
district. Or a combination thereof. Chairman Schroers, if you'd like
direction in how you should move through this, I'll be glad to provide
that. Otherwise simply.
,,-...
Schroers: I think I'd appreciate it if you would.
on the last issue and if you'd move us through here
we'd appreciate it. If I understand you correctly,
come up with $17,500.00?
We spent a lot of time
in a timely manner,
what we need to do is
Hoffman: If you want to stay with your figures which were discussed at the
last meeting, correct. At the last budget meeting.
Schroers: If we stay the way it's proposed right here, we're coming up
$17,000.00 over budget?
Hoffman: Correct.
Lash: Well how about if we just reduce the City Center fund, and phase
that in over 3 years and do it like $8,000.00 a year or something. Chances
are they're not going to come up with any money for a couple years anyway.
Andrews: I think that makes a lot of sense.
""
Hoffman: That would be one suggestion. Again, if you're going through the
comments, I wanted to make sure that you bounced around the issue of the
$65,000.00 in lights at Lake Susan which is 45% of the budget. I asked
Jerry Ruegemer, the Recreation Supervisor to respond to that. Again,
there's many issues and essentially it should only be justified if the
commission does not feel that that $65,000.00 would be better spent
elsewhere in the city. If it could be spent better for more value to
people, then we essentially should not be making that recommendation.
again as I stated, it's a one time type of investment. You simply at
point need to bite the bullet if you want to do it, and get it done.
However, as stated in my memo, summertime in Chanhassen, you obviously have
many opportunities. During the winter, I take calls from residents who
more
But
some
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 32
ask, are there additional skatipg opportunities? Are there additional
winter recreation opportunities? Where is the sliding hill in Chanhassen?
We haven't had one to date but hopefully now Power Hill will fill that
bill. So as the Commission, it's your responsibility as well to weigh
these checks and balances of our annual budget. Once you lock up
$65,000.00 for a year and we go out to bid for that project, we commit
ourselves.
....."
Schroers: What was the response from Mr. Ruegemer in regard to. the
importance of the lighting at Lake Susan?
Lash: There's a memo attached.
Hoffman: There's a last memo on your packet. In it he talked about the
numbers of baseball players and that type of thing in the community. The
survey, the preliminary results on the survey don't rate lights highly but
you would expect that simply because it's only a certain segment of the
community. If you're not interested in baseball or have no children in
baseball, you're not a softball player, you're not going to vote yes for
athletic lights. So in that vein, the survey which comes back would tell
you to put that money elsewhere. Potentially in trails or neighborhood
park development. Not in lights but you need to come up with that thought
process and struggle through it.
Lash: For one thing, we can't put it into trails. For another thing, the
survey also put Bandimere kind of low and so if people aren't going to vote
to support the development of Bandimere, we're going to have to find other --'
alternatives to provide ballfields and this is a way that we're going to be
able to almost double the useage on this one field. So what else can we
do?
Schroers: Also, can that lighting be used for anything else? Can that
lighting be used for skating in the wintertime? Could we develop an
additional skating area there where we could use those lights?
Hoffman: Not at Lake Susan. Not in regards to skating. The outfield
contains irrigation in it so you'd kill the grass. At issue of multi-
purpose use, we may be able to use Lake Susan for some. fall soccer under
the lights. That type of ~se but adult softball would not be scheduled.
Koubsky: You know the idea of just a nice ballfield. It's a great
ballfield. We need night games. We need to fertilize it. It's not green
yet: It's irrigated.
Lash: You kind of sound like President Bush. Not green. You need to
fertii ize.
Koubsky: For ballparks, it needs that lighting thing.
Schroers: I do agree. At the rate that Chanhassen is developing and we're
only at half 6f our target po~ulation right now, that ballfield is
something that's going to be more in demand as time goes on and as time
goes on, lighting it going to get more expensive as well as everything else ~
so I guess I think that we should stay with the lighting. -'
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 33
",....
Lash: I think we need to come up with that. I agree, we need to do that
but we need to come up with the money somewhere to put into our, what were
the two things we were lacking? The Scout.
Hoffman: Yeah, listed on page 26. Other Improvements continue to see
money. The Commission has found themselves in many circumstances where
they'd like to do a $600.00 project and have not laid away the funds to do
that so a contingency of at least a few thousand dollars, upwards of
$5,000.00 would prove very beneficial as you work through the year.
Schroers: Okay. Well if you would be so kind as to run a couple of your
options by us and along with the one that Janet made in regard to reducing
the matching funds for City Center and we can make a decision on this.
Lash: Under Carver Beach, can we pitch a couple of picnic tables? Can
they come out of the ones we just specified tonight or from somewhere else?
Hoffman: I'd hate to cut any picnic tables. We're strapped. We move them
around the way it is. In regards to the $17,000.00 that you're high, if
you take that off of the 25, you're left with $8,000.00. But if you want
to use a portion of that for spectator seating, additional bleachers, or
put aside $1,000.00 for a Boy Scout project or put a few thousand dollars
away for contingency, you're essentially going to wipe out any reserve for
City Center Park for those matching dollars. So again it's back to the
Commission to make that call which they feel is more appropriate.
"'"
Andrews: I have one comment to make and that's just that the pace of
current commercial development in our city, I think we're going to see a
shot here of revenue next year. Higher than what we saw this year. So I'm
not as nervous about being slightly more aggressive in '93 as I was in '92.
So I think we can put a little more into the budget than we originally were
targeting.
Schroers: Now are we talking for the matching funds was for 1993 or for
the whole 5 years? Did we put that $25,000.00 in for 1993?
Lash: And then that was supposed to be it. Just $25,000.00 and then
whenever they matched it, we would do it. Well,.if we phased it in now and
say we put in $5,000.00 or $8,000.00 each year over a couple of years, by
the time they're ready to match it, we'd have it.
Schroers: I think that makes a lot of sense to me. That way we don't have
to re~manipulate the.
Lash: I hate to see that happen because I'd like to see that project get
finished. But I think that we discussed enough last time that we don't
think it's fair that we carry the entire burden and I really don't see that
the school district is going to be coming up with any money for that for a
few years and I think that's that...
",....
Schroers: I think if we go ahead and foot the bill or show good faith that
we are willing to, they probably won't.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 34
Lash: Well, and if we come up with $8,000.00 and they match with
$8,000.00, that's a phase 2 anyway so, isn't it? I mean don't we usually
do it in like about a $15,000.00?
-'
Hoffman: Each of the remaining two phases were called out at the time'of
the initial installation at just over $20,000.00.
Lash: Don't you think they could be pared down?
Hoffman: Certainly.
Andrews: I'd like to tTya, so we get this going here. I'd like to
recommend that we put $8,000.00 into the Sity Center fund for this season
and to plan on contributing an additional $8,000.00 for the next 2 years
after this current year. Then we put the $l~OOO.OO budget item line in the
Boy Scout project. That we put an additional $4,000.00 in the Lake Susan
for ballfield improvements relating to the lighting. That could be, that
could include bleachers or other improvements that would be suitable for
night. Night use.
Koubsky: Any idea on a contingency fund? We have no contingency fund?
Andrews: Thank you. We have $1,000.00 in there now.
Lash: What do you think is an appropriate amount Todd?
Hoffman: For contingency? You'll spend $1,000.00 in one little strike. -'
Andrews: I think we need to have that up at 5. $5,000.00.
Schroers: Did we need the $4,000.00 to compliment the lighting project at
Lake Susan?
Hoffman: As far as additional bleachers?
Schroers: Yeah.
Hoffman: Well, additional bleachers are requested by
Association on an annual basis as their events grow.
go at Lake Susan or Meadow Green or up at City Center
been buying one or two sets of bleachers on an annual
need.
the Athletic
Whether those would
Park, but again we've
basis to meet the
Schroers: Yeah I guess I was having trouble following Jim because it seems
to me like you were coming up with more than" that $25,000.00.
Andrews: Yes I am. That's exactly right. What I'm saying is that I feel
that we Gan exceed our original target. The only reason I think that way
is because of seeing the plans come in for the Target. For the other malls
that seem to be coming. r feel fairly comfortable with the fact.
Schroers: That we can exceed our overall budget?
Andrews: We're going to have more cashflow than we originally...
...-I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 35
~
Lash: So our budget was supposed to be, we were supposed to try to stick
to $150,000.00.
Hoffman: Correct. And I tend to agree with Commissioner Andrews but I
would stick to the $150,000.00 recommendation. Target will come in. It
will match, if it does get approved, it will match similar funds, revenues
to what the supermarket development was. Past that point, we don't have
anything right on the verge of being constructed. There's certainly many
proposals out there. I feel very comfortable with that figure. The number
does come out of the City Manager's office and would not be at the
discretion of the Park Commission to arbitrarily change it at this point
without additional review. But again, if we do take in $25,000.00 more in
revenue than expected, that just goes into the back account and if we are
at, as addressed in earlier presentations, we are at a low.
Schroers: Then we can spend it as we get it, not before we get it?
Hoffman: Correct. We are at low tide. We're at the cash on hand of
$225,000.00. Barely covering our reserves where 4 years ago we were at a
high of cash on hand of over $600,000.00.
Schroers: I like what Jim is doing but I think we have to do it within the
$150,000.00 framework so if you just want to reword that Jim.
Lash: But we can't. If we take, if we started out at $167,000.00. We
~. take off $17,000.00 from City Center, that leaves $8,000.00 like we just
talked. Then we're at $150,000.00 so we don't have any then to put into
the contingency or ,the Boy Scouts or the tree farm or anything else. So
that means we've got to cut something somewhere else if we want to have a
contingency fund. And Boy Scout projects. So we've got to go back to the
drawing board.
Erickson: We're looking for things to cut out of the '93 budget. Make
sure I'm on track here, right?
Schroers: Yep, the ~93.
Erickson: I was the one who originally brought up Chanhassen Pond Park.
R~pair the observation platform. You have $2,000.00 on that. Maybe we
could bump that to '94. My greatest concern with that is really a safety
issue, not so much making sure people can see the park. That's not a high
p~iority item. It'd be something that we should either tear down that deck
or fix it. Maybe we can just have Boy Scouts tear it out of there. Or
mai ntenance tear it out of there". Put the improvement for '94. Or maybe
even '95 and then at that point build it. Build a new one. I don't hear
neighbors clamboring for an observation deck repaired at Chanhassen Pond
Park. Although I think some~here down the road, maybe next year, the year
after, if that would be a good idea.
Lash: But if it's a safety issue, it needs to be addressed.
,-..-
Erickson: That at least has to be torn down which shouldn't cost us any
money. Maybe maintenance can go out there and tear it down.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 36
...."
Lash: So you're comfortable with that?
Erickson: I'm comfortable or moving it onto '94.
Andrews: I have another item. I'm wondering under Lake Ann, we have
$10,500.00 for the trail loop. Over the last years, there have been a few
oPPoTtunities where that's been done under city hOUTS rather than out of
the budget. Park budget. Is there any chance we could look to that area
for a little squeeze there?
Lash: What is a bituminous, what is that anyway?
Hoffman: Bituminous trail loop. Is a trail loop which has been grubbed
out and cleared in this large treed section of the western edge of the
park. It's an unused portion of the park and to be able to get folks in
there to enjoy that portion of the park wouldb~ a nice amenity. Through
the ADA requirements. the comments you are seeing is that gravel, turf,
those types of trails really just don't cut it anymore in regards to
accessibility. You should be looking to bituminous surfacing. However,
this has be~n t~gged on and deleted over the past couple of years. It's
$10,500.00, which by the way is simply for material only. We will be doing
the installation so if we contracted that job out, it would cost us
$30,000.00.
Lash: This has been postponed several years but when I read this, I looked
at that too and guiltily thought well it can be postponed again but then I
thought maybe it was something connected with the new picnic shelter. That--'
it was something in that area that needed to be done.
Schroers: Yeah, what actual amenities would this trail serve? What would
it tend to do? It wouldn't tend to give people another easier access down
to the beach from the western parking lot. It wouldn't do anything but
provide a trail loop correct?
Hoffman: Correct, sure.
Schroers: And a pretty small loop.
Hoffman: Yeah. The square footage or the lineal feet is upstairs. It's
plotted on an aerial if anybody's interested in taking a look at it. But
we are somewhat deficient in our city in recreational trails and a place to
go and walk and that is what it would be providing. The woods there is
very. . .
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Schroers: ...It's where the gravel is now and you can go down to the west
end of the beach that w~y. Part of it.
Hoffman: Part of it yeah but it meanders through the entire western edge
of the woods there. And again, trails have been specified in the,
potentially not this type of trail. They're looking for access to and from
their neighborhoods to parks and to the downtown but trails nevertheless ~
are rated extremely high. Higher than anything else in the survey.
I"""
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 37
Schroers: Yeah, I'm just wondering how much a trail of that type and of
that length would actually get used. I mean how many people are going to
say drive out to the park so they can walk it. It probably wouldn't be a
mile.
Hoffman: The entire two loops are, close to a mile.
Andrews: I agree with Larry. I just don't see it as a destination
activity.
Schroers: I think that a lot of people aren't even going to know it's'
there.
Koubsky: Especially without mosquito control.
Erickson: I'm sorry, where's the loop again?
Lash: It's up in the woods.
Erickson: In Lake Ann?
Schroers: In Lake Ann and west of the ballfields. It probably stays on
this side of the creek. Where the.creek goes underneath the road and over.
~ Erickson: It's that gravel path that goes from like one of the parking
ramps back to that sand volleyball thing?
Hoffman: It shows the entire thing. Why don't you just continue to
discuss it and I'll go get it.
Lash: What we need to do is look for a fairly big buck item that we're
willing to postpone in order to have these other things and there's only
two of them on here. One is that and the other one is Sunset Ridge play
area expansion 2. Phase 2.
Andrews: I don't think we can delete that.
Schroers: No, I don't think we should either. I really think that, you
know as much as I like trails, I like bicycling and walking and jogging and
all that but I think a one mile trail through that woods, very few people
are going to know about it. I think it's going to be used very little. I
really don't see that as an amenity. I don't see anybody ~aying oh,
they've got a new one mile paved trail down at Lake Ann. Let's go down
there and use it.
Andrews: They're not going to drive to that as a destination.
Schroers: It doesn't go anywhere. It's a loop. A few people in
particular who jog around there or walk their dogs around there may use it
but I don't see it as something that's going to be as attractive to the
city as a whole.
I"""
Betg: What was the rationale for proposing it in the first place? If this
Park and Rec Commission M~eting
August 25, 1992 - Page 38
.......,'
has been postponed 2 or 3 times. What was the rationale for having it on
'there?
Lash: Well it's just a turf trail now.
Schroers: Yeah, it's supposed to be kind of nature.
Lash: Didn't an Eagle Scout do it or something? Brush it out before or
how did that get there?
Hoffman: No...
Berg: Why did someone sometime decide that $10,500~OO was a good idea to
spend on this?
Erickson: The basic rationale is you get a giant piece of woods there,
let's go walk through it?
Hoffman: Right...
Erickson: Just a big piece of land that we're not utilizing.
Lash: So it was a nature trail and if people aren't using it now as a
nature trail, are they going to use it when it's paved? Probably not.
Erickson: Oh, this is the existing one.
.....,I
Schroers: Yeah, this is the existing one...
Erickson: I like this little trail here. I didn't know that that was all
parkland.
Hoffman: You and everybody else.
Erickson: Yeah, and you may want to keep it that way. I think the ttail's
a good idea. If not this year. There's already a nice walk at Lake Ann
from Lake Ann, the swimming beach and everything over to Greenmeadow
Shores. There's a nice...
Schroers: Todd, can we just straighten this out and run it around the lake
and hook up to the existing trail on the east side? I'll go for that.
Koubsky: You'd have a hard time pulling that one out.
Lash: How do you access...where you get into it? Up at the top of the
hill by the volleyball?
Schroers: No, just opposite of Field 2.
Hoffman: Two separate points for access there. Well actually three.
Lash: But it's off the parking area then?
Schroers: Right off the parking area In here.
.....,,'
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ August 25, 1992 - Page 39
Koubsky: There's a little gate there.
SchroeTs: Yeah. You can access off of the shore down there. Coming up
from the beach...
Andrews: I'm ready to bail y00 guys out here. I've got the perfect
answer.
Schroers: Oh good. I'm glad somebody does.
Andrews: We'll take the whole entire budget and... My idea was to do
this. What Jan said is right. There's only a few logical targets here
that can really make any real difference to our budget. My proposal is
that we contribute $8,000.00 towards City Center this year, as I said
before. That we allocate $1,000.00 for the Eagle Scout and we take
$9,500.00 and put it in contingency which is a large amount for contingency
but I'm sure that we'll have needs come up next year, as Todd has stated,
that we could easily use that in wise ways later. And that would then
balance our budget.
Schroers: And eliminate the paving of the proposed.
Andrews: Leave the trail loop and change our contribution to City Center
to $8,000.00 instead of $25,000.00.
",....,
Erickson: And the trail loop is just going to be forgotten about or moved
onto future?
Andrews: It'd be deferred.
Koubsky: Deferred indefinitely.
Andrews: That"s one of the reasons I love that contingency. They're
fair~y large is that, if there's an important issue, we've got a fairly
sizeable amount of money to do something with.
Schroers: And I do like the basic concept of this trail but I think that
that's really a...since it doesn't really go anywhere except around in a
circle. I just really don't see it being utilized by a large number of
people. If it was connecting something, it would be different but it's not
so I guess I don't have a problem deferring it. I really think that that's
a luxury and not as much of a necessity.
Koubsky: As far now Randy too, it is grubbed out. You can go in there and
walk around.
Erickson: You can walk it now? It's just not bituminous?
Schroers: It's kind of like mountain bike trails now.
.~
Lash: Well would it be like walking around Chan Pond Park?
Schroers: More dirt I think.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 40
"""'"
Hoffman: And did your recommendation include the deletion of the $2,000.00
on the repair of the platform?
Andrews: I did not. I feel that we cannot responsibly defer that.
Schroers: Okay. So that is a motion. Do we have a second on that?
Koubsky: I'll second that.
Andrews moved. Koubsky seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend that the City Council approve the 1993 Park Acquisition and
Development Capital Improvement Program amended as follows: To contribute
$8.000.00 towards City Center for 1993 with an additional $8.000.00 for
each of the following two years. allocate $1.000.00 for Eagle Scout
projects. and put $9.500.00 into a contingency fund. All voted in favor
and the motion carried.
FALL RECREATION PROGRAM SCHEDULE.
Lash: Chairman Schroers and Commission members. The fall recreation
program update which is quite exciting, will be brought to you by Jerry and
Dawn.
Ruegemer: Like Todd said, in looking at our 1992 fall newsletter that did
come out I feel is one of our most popular and most exciting newsletter in
recreation...to offer that our department has seen in a number of years.
There's the programs that effect virtually every age group in our city. We
do have programs for preschool kids, elementary kids, teens...and so forth.
The adult activities and then senior activities. So it appears that we are
touching every section of population in our city. what we're going to do
is briefly kind of go through each a~e category as it appears on the memo
itself. If there's any questions going through the memo, just please feel
free to stop and ask away. I'd be more than happy to answer those for you.
Starting with our Chanhassen Kids Club. In the past we've talked to
various groups in our district and it appeared to me that there was a need
for an after school program. This summer Dawn and I have both talked about
it throughout the summer and...take the opportunity to act on that notion
and try to offer a program for after school. That after school program
will be on Mondays and Fridays when school is in session. It would be...
That will be daily occurring from 3:30 to 5:30 to 6:00 is what we're
putting in... That would be at the elementary ~chool...having the gym
available for kids who'd like to play basketball or do other types of
activities in there. Different special events. We will be...occasionally
field tr ips and goi ng to. ..so it wi 11 really be ki nd of a social ization
program verus traditional education...
~
Andrews: Is this a fee for service program or no charge program?
Ruegemer: It is a fee. It's a self supporting program.
Lash: What is the fee, do you know?
-'
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ August 25, 1992 - Page 41
Ruegemer: The fee, we can break it down per quarter...per quarter...which
is approximatley $200.00. With a 10% discount on the second child. For
one child it's approximately $25.00 per week and for the second child is
approximately $22.50.
Schroers: Have you tested the waters to get some idea of how much
participation you may generate in this program?
Ruegemer: Just talking to different, Helen...over at Chan Elementary and
other various groups, it sounds like they've been getting numerous requests
for at least the past couple of years to...additional pressure put on them
to offer an after school type of a program.
Lash: I think you are going to be swamped. Do you have a limit of how
many kids you can tak~?
Ruegemer: We're going to keep it somewhat smaller at first with a max of
30 kids. And keep a waiting list and wait for any additional requests
after that, we'll certainly add on the requests.
Lash: So it's going to be first come, first serve?
Ruegemer: Correct.
~ Lash: Will you accept part time people?
Ruegemer: We had looked at a couple different ways of doing it. Either
the way we're going to be doing it is pay in full. For a full quarter at a
time. We also had explored the possibility of doing, the possibility of a
10 day pass throughout the quarter which needs to be paid. Whatever... has
to have a punch card. Where he can drop in whenever they choose to. We
also looked at doing a...weighing all the pros and cons, we decided to go
with, for at the present time to go with the straight fee, 5 days a week.
Lash: So that would discourage part time?
Ruegemer: We don't want to discourage any interest by any means but this
is the way we're going to tryi{ right now. If there appears to be the
need, after doing maybe a drop-in or a punch card type of system, we'll
certainly address that.
Lash: And then what facilities at the school are available for your use
besides the gym?
Ruegemer: Basically the gym.
Lash: The big gym?
Ruegemer: Right. We'll be meeting with Helen...Dawn and myself on Friday
mor ni ng . . .
~
Lash: And then who is going to be supervising?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 42
--/
Ruegemer: It will be, we'll be having a site supervisor as well as a
coordinator and we'll be keeping a ratio of 1 for 10.
Berg: I don't even know that it's necessary. Have you done any talking
with the daycare facilities in the area?
Ruegemer: As far as?
Berg: As far as the fact that they might be down a lot of kids in the
afternoon. That might have a financial impact on an'awful lot of people.
Like I said, I don't even know if it's necessary to let them know but
I would imagine there's going to be quite a few people that would just as
soon leave their kid there. 'To go back to the daycare. '
Hoffman: I can comment in that regard. The scho~l district has been
looking at this to an extensive degree. Many, many school districts, in
fact I would classify most, do offer some type of a before school and after
school daycare typically through the community education department. In
our initial investigations, they did get some opposition from the private
daycare providers to providing ~hat service through the governmental
agencies. However, the demand for it to happen on site, in the schools is
very, very high. Simply from the convenience standpoint and transportation
and safety standpoint. .
Erickson: Is this something like what they're doing in Jonathon?
doing it after school in Jonathon or in the morning?
Are they
--/
Lash: They're doing it both I think. And then are you thinking of the
possibility of expanding it at some time to the morning?
Ruegemer: Again, in conversations with...this afternoon, we're going to
kind of cross that bridge when we come to... They weren't really planning
on coming up here... If our program is successful, the discussion today
was...
Berg: Have you done any talking with the Athletic Associations in terms of
useage of gym because I know that they were talking about trying to see
about gym accessibility like after school. Obviously that's going to wipte
this out.
Ruegemer: Really the Athletic Associations up to this point really will be
in the evening hours with the basketball program. They would meet
typically from 6:00 or 6:30 until about 8:00 or 9:00. Currently the demand
has been... Did you have another sport besides basketball?
Berg: I was thinking specifically of. basketball. The meeting I was at the
other night, there was an incredible shortage of gym space and they were
talking about at least ask that of you and also Redmond.
Ruegemer: The age group that has primarily been in Chanhasseh
is 1st grade through 4th grade and it appeared to be that that
suitable. Their needs would be accommodated this year with...
to be combining programs with Chaska basketball association for
aged groups.
Elementary
would be
We're going
the older ....."
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
.~ August 25, 1992 - Page 43
Lash: Are we talking about high school kids?
Berg: No middle school kids specifically.
Ruegemer: Again that would be in the middle school...
Berg: It won't be the high school. Well, maybe at night but not very
often at night.
Hoffman: Jerry does act as the liason between the Chanhassen Athletic
Association and the city so he would not program to conflict that
association and he probably has some knowledge on the middle school but I
would think the elementary school and the local athletic association would
find it hard to give up space at the school for the middle school at the
elementary school site. Space is tight, there's no question.
Lash~ I think it sounds great. I think you'll be flooded with calls.
Hoffman: The calls on this program, the day after the brochure came out,
exceeded by far any other program.
Lash: Are you already full?
Ruegemer: We are currently taking registration. Okay, then just
~ continuing on. There's a continuation of the summer trips that were
offered for our teens in our area. We will be coordinating, or Dawn will
be coordinating the Jr. High jaunts as trips just operativE:! to the middle
school kids and other area kids that are of that age or in that age
category, an opportunity to go on these trips. To socialize with their
friends so the trips are listed in order right here. They would be
starting in September and concluding in December. We felt there was a need
for teen programming...
Andrews: A comment. This comes directly from my wife, but I think it's
probably relevant to those who live in Chanhassen and are inithe Minnetonka
schools. It would be really appreciated if you're publicizi~9 in Chas~a
schools, I think you should publicize in Minnetonka schools that are
effected. I mean I know you're not hitting the target quite the same way
but I noticed a lot of the other events are planned on holiday days or
special days off during the school year are Chaska school days. They don't
match up with Minnetonka. A comment my wife made was, well how come we
can't, why can't we get our opportunity. I agree. I mean I pay taxes and
I feel like in a lot of cases I feel sort of like the Minnetonka school
district people are kind of ignored when it comes to programming. There's
not the same effort given to communication and recruitment or generation of
enthusiasm.
Lemme: We'll definitely for the fall trips through the Jr. High will be
publicized in the Minnetonka Intermediate School.
,.....
Andrews: I'd appreciate it. Well if you put up flyers too.
Lemme: We plan on doing that. Putting out a flyer because we want to
promote these as much as possible.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 44
...,;
Andrews: We have to and appreciate that, thanks.
Lash: Do you feel that there would be a lot of kids in the Minnetonka
district who don't live in Chanhassen who would want to participate in
these?
Andrews: I think the kids would create interest and I'm not sure we can
accommodate that, and then we can't.
Lash: That would be my fear.
Andrews: But I still think you can't say well then let's not tell them
about it because that's not fair €lithe,.
Lash: But it's all in the paper. It's in the mailouts. It's in a lot of
those things but if you send it home to all of the kids in the Minnetonka
district and then all of a sudden 1,000 call.
Andrews: You can just put up a notice in the school. That would be
helpful.
Lemme: They've been real good about accepting our flyers and that.
Andrews: I know it creates a confusing situation when you've got people
that are across city lines. I know like things are more publicized here in
Chanlilassen Elementary than they Elver were at Clear Springs or Groveland or,
well I think Groveland's totally Minnetonka but I know Clear Springs was a ~
mixed district school.
schroers: Would it be distasteful to put on the brochure, even though it's
in the Minnetonka School District, Chanhassen resident teens. Attention
Chanhassen resident teens and just kind of specify towards the people who
live in Chanhassen.
Andrews: I don't think that's distasteful at all. No, I don't think it is
because I think it's being sponsored by Chanhassen Park and Rec to put
Chanhassen residents. That's who your target is.
Lemme: Well we are also doing this in conjunction with Chaska Park and
R.ecreation too, although we are havi ng two pick-up sites. One is at the
Chanhassen City Hall and one is at the Chaska Community Center. So
certainly we want to get these going. We want. these to be success;ful. We
want to hit those junior high kids who don't have, and most of these trips
do not start right after school so hopefully it wouldn't be'a
transportation problem if they, were a Minnetonka person coming to the city
Hall to pick up the bus.
Andrews: There's a lot more of them up there now with all the Lundgren
development up there.
Hoffman: To address that, the Department has always had the same concerns.
We~ve not simply forgot about the Minnetonka folks. We struggle with that
situation. The first thing I did when I came here as a programmer was to --'
pin map where our participants are coming from and they came essentially
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
.~ August 25, 1992 - Page 45
from the Chaska school district. That did not however mean that we drop
off publicizing information in Minnetonka. We do so very well at the
elementary age level because Minnewashta and Excelsior elementary schools
will allow you to distribute all flyers to those schools. Clear Springs
will not. They do not send a Wednesday or Tuesday packet. They will
simply allow you to put it up in the flyer rack at the front of the school.
So that is the deficiency. But now we are moving forward with the middle
school and the high school age folks that are up in that area and we share
the Commissioner Andrews' feelings in that regard.
Andrews: Good. We appreciate it.
Lash: And then when is registration due for these things?
Lemme: I believe it's specified in the newsletter. If not, really up
until the trip is full. If 3 days before these trips are, I think
basically on Thursdays. If the trips are not full by I'd say Tuesday, we
probably would cancel but we'll take registrations up until.
Ruegemer: Continuing on. Continuing the middle school, teen night out.
They were a very popular program last year and that will continue again
next year and we have 3 teen nights out planned at the present time. One
in October, one in December and one in January. So we'll continue those
with the same type of activities as last year with a guest OJ, concessions
~ available, prize give aways, dancing and gym activities, swimming. Those
types of activities so it will be fun for the kids.
Lash: Are you coordinating, I know you were asked to help with the middle
school parties too. Did you get sucked into doing that?
Ruegemer: No, we didn't.
Lash: So are these kind of coordinated with the school parties so they're
not?
Ruegemer: Yeah, we had to address those concerns before we planned the
dates. I also tried to work around...school parties as well as sporting
events that it would conflict with. Try to keep them on neutral nights...
with our special events for the fall. We have Oktoberfest coming up
September 25th. That will be right here in the lower parking lot. That
will include live entertainment, Rotary Bingo, concessions by the Lion's,
hot air balloons display and also...our annual Halloween party. That will
be on Friday night, October 30th over at the elementary school from 6=00 to
8:00. Also, in December we'll be having breakfast with Santa...include on
here will be the tree lighting ceremony that Monday after. We'll be having
plenty of special events coming up here and it appears...
"
Lemme: The birthday bonanza's is a new self supporting program. We're
going to run these out at the Chanhassen Senior Center. Three different
options for parents, Just a birthday option. We'll have three different
parties. They'll be supervised by an adult staff running approximately 45
minutes of activities and then the last 45 minutes will be present opening,
cake and ice cream and traditional party things. We will provide some
basic necessities. As I said, supervised activities and we hope that these
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 46
, ....,;I
will be accepted. I know that I was gone last week but there were several
calls on those already.
Hoffman: Again, self supporting. If you note, I believe most of these, if
there's any exceptions that are non self supporting, all of these would be
,self supporting.
Lash: That's a great idea too.
Andrews: I think it's exciting to see all these new programs. Lots of
ideas. I think it's really creative.
Lash: And it's the kind of things that people are just dying for.
Everybody hates to have those birthday parties at your house.
Hoffman: It fits the demographics of Chanhassen for sure.
Ruegemer: Yeah, we feel this will be very positive... Saturday youth open
gym will be available from 1:00 to 4:00 in the aftefnoon... Again, our
mens 5 on 5 basketball will be starting...probably the third or fourth week
in November. ...after Thanksgiving we start with games and then our season
ends in March. ...games and that will be played at the middle school and
the community center in Chaska. There's also an opportunity for Chanhassen
residents to participate in fall and winter volleyball... It's kind of a
spin off from our spring golf classes. We will be offering fall golf
lessons this year to try to accommodate the people that didn't have a
chance to participate in the spring golf lessons. As of today, they will
be starting next week. Next Tuesday and we have Tuesday classes will run.
We have enough registrations...at the present time so there is interest in
als6 the fall golf lessons and they will be offered out at Swings... That
will be taught by a very experienced golf...
-""
Lemme: A couple extra added special events. Just some one day, a couple
hour little things. The Halloween mask making and the my pale the pumpkin
which is just a chance for parents and their children to come and carve and
decorate pumpkins. We'll also have some .-games and activities and some
snacks of course. And everyone will get a pumpkin for that. Jerry touched
on the Halloween pa~ty and the hayride. Anything else you want to say
about the hayride? A couple other new craft classes we're going to try.
Dabble, dibble and doodle and make it naturally. Make it naturally did not
have the description. That's actually a description for a class entitled
tumbleweeds and that's another parent taught class and we just, we ran a 3
year old class this summer called summer sensations and it was ~eal
popular. It filled up and we thought, let's try...and make it naturally
and the descriptions not on there. It's a nature craft, arts and crafts
class and that goes for 6 weeks. ...exercise is also a fitness class
formerly titled rockin and rolling I believe from last year. We'll add a
few other things. They'll be talking on nutrition and other health topics
and those are both going to be run by Chris Stone who's worked with the
Park and'Rec Department previously. Tiny Tot Tours is for parents and
their preschoolers also to have an opportunity to visit some places. For
parents to have a chance to socialize with other parents that have
preschoolers. And we've already received many registrations on the tiny
tot tours. So just trying to hit, as we said, and then there's also the
-'
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ August 25, 1992 - Page 47
Children's Workshop. The happy holi~ay crafts. Trying to get some special
craft projects going. As we said, just trying to hit on some of the
different age groups. The preschool age, the grade school ages. We're
also having, I don't know if that's listed, a microwave kids in the kitchen
class which will be kind of an addition to, the kids in the kitchen that was
run this summer. And a lot of these craft classes and the cooking classes
are being run right after school as well as an option for kids just to walk
over he~e to the chan Elementary or the Chan Senior Center. They don't
have to bus to...and come back. They can just stick around.
Ruegemer: I don't know if you happened to notice this but our department
is currently now comp~ter registration ready...but 95% of the programs have
a program code on it. Either that being a Y or an A. That is separated by
youth and adult programs. We'll be...descriptions on the computer for each
class. When the registrations do come in, it can just be...intothe
computer. A program is already set up and...other information that's
pertinent t6 our overall success with the program. And also with the
program with registration, we will be training the receptionist to take
those...and entered in-on a daily basis...
schroers: Very ambitious agenda and I think you guys deserve a lot of'
credit for putting that all together, especially with the success we've
experienced in the past ~nd the anticipated success with your new program.
You guys have done a great job. Thanks a lot;
,....,
JOINT MEETING WITH CITY COUNCIL. SEPTEMBER LAKE ANN PARK PICNIC AND
RECREATIONAL SHELTER.
Hoffman: Chairman Schroers and Commission members. The City Council
meeting ran late as well last evening. I was not able to address this with
them. I will do that administratively and through members of the City
Council and the Mayor individually and then distribute information via mail
back to the commission members informing them of that chosen date for that
meeting.
Lash: That was supposed to be at the shelter anyway wasn't it?
Hoffman: Correct. It was supposed to be at the shelter in August but now
we'll look at the shelter in September.
Lash: What was the point of it anyway? Did we have a point other than we
were just going to meet at the shelter?
Hoffman: The Council wishes to meet with all the commissions on an annual
basis and that would be a chance to discuss mutual concerns.
Schroers: Okay, thanks Todd.
Lash: So you're saying we'll be having two meetings in September?
,....
Hoffman: Potentially would have two meetings in September if the Council
chooses a date other than the regularly scheduled commission meeting. With
the lengths of your agendas lately, I would doubt we could, we'd have to
meet at 5':30 and get our joint meeting done and then come back to do the,
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 48
.....,I
reconvene and get the business of the Park Commission finished.
Schroers: Okay, thanks.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: PARK NEEDS SURVEY. SUMMARIZE RESULTS.
Hoffman: The summary results of the park needs survey will be distributed
through the, I believe the September 3rd edition of the Chanhassen
Villager. Question 1 as you recall dealt with the overall feeling of the
park and recreation department and how that meets the needs. Thankfully a
high p~rcentage is satisfied or indifferent and those tw6 comprised
approximately 75% of the results. Bandimere did take a negative response
from the development of Bandimere from the results of the survey. I think
it is as a result of the continuing tax revolt in our community, and many
others that folks are not prepared to invest their money in additional
youth athletic complex in the city. You'll see again, this is simply a
summary. You'll see a detailed report which is, will includes specific
comments ~hich approximately, what percentage replied with specific
60mments? 40? 51% and then those respondents that indicated they would
like a personal phone call will be contacted by myself. In regard to the
ranking of the recreational facilities, trails were three fold above
anything else. Underneath that category, the preservation of natural lands
for future park use came in second. After that city center parks scored
very highly. Everything else ran an inconsistent basis and, when the survey
results are distributed to you in your next packet, you will notice that.
Looking on downward to the other issues which were addressed. Essentially ,
that was it for crucial information. Then we went into age respondents and-'
those types of things and that's all broken out as well.
Schroers: Good, thanks.
Hoffman: Additional administrative presentations would be the issue of
mosquito control. That report was given to the City Council last nisht.
The length of discussion was minimal. Probably taking about a half hour of
last night's agenda. Dr. Shogren, who was never present at one of the
commission's meeting was there to speak on behalf of Mosquito Control. No
other representatives were there. That may be due to my comments in my
report to the Council that Mosquito Control showed up in force. I just
stated that as a comment. I didn't say that was wrong of Mosquito Coritrol
but they chose to be there single handedly as the director of Mosquito
control. Mr. Rivkin and Mr. Singer, who is the environmental person. I
don't know his technical title, for the Minneapolis Park Board was ,there as
well. Environmentally he deals with environmental concerns with the
Minneapolis Park Board. Council addressed this fairly directly and for the
most part really didn't like mosquito control but we don't know everything
about mosquito control so therefore it's better off not being there. They
concurred with many of the Commission's comments that you stand before me
and say it is safe. The label does not and when I see,somebody cold
fogging and I'm jogging in my shorts and the guy is in a moon suit and
you're still telling me it's safe, I'm'not sure that I quite believe that.
Dr. Shogien acknowledged the public outcry which 'is forthcoming and the
mounting concern over mosquito control. Did not deny that. However, a
large portion of their budget is taken up by adult mosquito control or cold-,
fogging. So they're cutting back in that regard. They did discuss the
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ August 25, 1992 - Page 49
encephalitis issue and again, I think the percentage is less than 1% of
their budget or approximately $181,000.00 is consumed on that encephalitis
program. So again the concern and the hype about encephalitis control was
downplayed as well. The. eventual action was to concur with the
recommendation by the Park Commission with much discussion centering on the
possibility of even extending that to larval control. Extending that to
not only city parks but throughout the entire city.
Schroers: Okay, and did they go along with the one year review process on
the larvacide program?
Hoffman: Your review was put into,a statement in concern with adulticides
but they were in favor of reviewing larvacides as well.
Schroers: I thought that our recommendation was to ban the adulticide and
review the larvacide program on a yearly basis.
Lash: No.
Erickson: No.
Lash: It was to continue the larvacide. To ban the adulticide and review
the adulticides.
~ Schroers: Review the adulticlde.
Lash: In one year. At the end of next season.
Schroers: How did I get confused on that. I made that motion didn't I?
Andrews: That's probably how you got confused.
Lash: I know I was confused. When I read the Minutes, I asked for it to
be repeated about three times.
Andrews: Have you heard any feed back from our contractor on Lake Ann or
,is there a scurry of activity now in anticipation of paying fines?
Hoffman: Unfortunately the letter Commissioner Andrews is referring to is
in the packet. They are not scurrying around. I would anticipate that
we're going to butt heads on this issue. They from day one have requested
contract extensions. From day one I was convinced that this contract time
period allowed more than ample time for this contract to be completed.
Have b~en disappointed since day one in their lack of progness. Was out
there, called a site visit between the contractor, our consultant on the
job, building department and myself on Monday and again they're plodding
along but certainly by no means attempting to get ,the project done by the
28th. I will keep you updated on the events occuring after that.
Andrews: Did they post a bond on this project? Performance bond.
",...., Hoffman: Correct.
Andrews: So we're protected.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 25, 1992 - Page 50
....",
Hoffman: We're protected. We're also having problems with B&B
Underground...company has requested no payments be made to them. That is
in regard to the utilities which were installed at Lake Ann. They have not
paid some of their contractors. I've informed the City Attorney of this
and so he's being kept abreast but you're dealing with low bid and in
contractors that deal with municipal contracts, you often have problems and
unfortunately we'll have to deal with those.
Berg: Is the issue of the irrigation problem at Lake Ann come up at
Council?
Hoffman: Correct. That was approved by the City Council. That budget
amendment. I apologize to the Commission if I've not brought that news
back to you. They approved that sight unseen on a consent agenda with the
report in hand and the recommendation from the Commission. I've since met
with the representatives who design these systems and that will be going to
formal bid process s6metime in the first part of September with
construction beginning in October. The project will most assuredly lay
open during the winter and be completed in the spring of 1993.
Lash: What kind of impact is that going to have on the playing fields
then?
Schroers: I think it is nice also that the City Council, for the most
part, were consistent with the way we felt on that. We look a little mote
unified and together than mosquito control would have made us out to be.
Lash: I feel good about that too. That was such a difficult issue for us
and if Council would have not gone along with our recommendation it would
have not looked good for us at all.
Koubsky: I don't know. We had opinions. We listened. I think it's an
issue that you talk to a lot of people and you're going to get different
opinions.
schroers: Well anyway, let's get this in the budget and try to move
through.
Hoffman: Other items of interest in the administrative section, of
particular interest would be the article on the abandoned rail line.
Bridges to be raised. The commission has addressed this previously.
The
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-Park and Rec Commission Meeting
,..... August 25, 1992 - Page 51
southern railroad corridor is being looked at by Hennepin Parks as a
regional rail corridor.. Thus they would be the governing body doing the
development, regulation, etc., etc.. That is to our benefit certainly on
the financial side. It may not be to our benefit on the control side over
useage, etc.. Those types of things. ynfortunately, there's a letter in
there from Jerry Johnson of the DNR informing the city that we would not be
funded for the aeration system which means we made a $4,000.00 investment
to run electricity down there and we don't be able to take advantage of
that in 1993. Winter of and we may be subject to winter kill. The two
letters from two Dave Tillman's and Mr. and Mrs. Patrick McGrath are off
beat of the issue of tree cutting at Carver Beach and if you see the notes
there from, to Mr. McGrath, he had some differing opinions on what
potentially should be his rights in that regard. Took offense to the
letter and those issues were addressed with him on the phone.
Schroers: Very good. Anything else?
Andrews moved, Berg seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Rec Coordinator
Prepared by Nann Opheim
~
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