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PRC 1992 09 22 ,.... CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION AND CITY COUNCIL SPECIAL MEETING SEPTEMBER 22, 1992 Chairman Schroers called the joint City Council and Park and Recreation Commission meeting to order at 6:45 p.m.. COMMISSION MEMBERS PRESENT: Larry Schroers, Jan Lash, Dave Koubsky, Randy Erickson, Fred Berg and Wendy Pemrick COMMISSION MEMBERS ABSENT: Jim Andrews CITY COUNCIL PRESENT: Mayor Chmie.l, Councilman Mason, Councilman Wing, and Councilman Workman CITY COUNCIL ABSENT: Councilwoman Dimler STAFF PRESENT: Don Ashworth, City Manager; Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Coordinator; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor; and Dawn Lemme, Program Specialist (The recording of the first portion of this discussion was poor quality and some people were not sitting near microphones. Therefore the Minutes are somewhat incomplete.) ~ Hoffman: ...1 've laid out a possible discussion agenda this evening. I think what I'll do is just go through them. I'll make some very brief comments and then the group as a whole can take up the discussion from there...and just see how long each item takes...if we get into a time crunch. We have about an hour and 20 minutes to go through this and then we need to adjourn... First item on the agenda is the Park and Recreation Needs Assessment and Opinion Survey which is about a better th.n a 6 month effort by the time it... The opinion survey was started and it was mailed out in July of this year and...tabulated. With the help of our capable City Manager...as well as 1,054...which were tabulated. As is laid out in the comments there, the original thoughts for why this survey was going to be put together was the discussion about the possible development of the Bandimere site. That 25 acre plus park down in southern region of Chanhassen. Work going on concerning and starting to research... The other things...survey was a position on trails. Trails stood out as...trail system first. Acquisition of open or natural land for preservation second. Park and ballfield improvements to City Center Park...third. Acquisition of parkland for future community use is fourth. Development of Bandimere Park...fifth. Sixth is the development a municipal golf course and seven, installation of lights at Lake Ann... Interesting to note. Many people said they were willing to $5.00 per month to get these type of things done. When you break it down in that type of a question, how much individually per month would you be willing to pay to take some of the fear out of it. If you add up all 12 1/2 thousand residents at $5.00 per month, you come up with a fairly sizeable amount of money... Other interesting thing is the age breakdown. If you look at the family structure and only 6% and 4% ~ respectively have high school thru junior high. So kids in this community are 13% elementary, 14% preschool. Very, very young. If you then read through the Villager covered this article... Reactions from Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22~ 1992 - Page 2 ....., the floor. oh by the way anybody who did, under 100 asked for a personalized response by phone which I will be making contact back to tho~e people..~and then as well, approximately 50% had additional comments. Those additional comments will be tabulated by subject... Lash: So people who were dissatisfied...did they say specifically what they're dissatisfied with?.. Ruegemer: The important keynote too is, some of the comments that came back, are you satisfied with recreational programs which are more geared towards the CAA program, which is a separate organization from the city. A lot of the questions that did come back that were not satisfied were geared more towards that specific area. Hoffman: People lump together the Athletic Association and the city. And as you can well imagine some of the comments... Councilman Wing: ...trails... Hoffman: Trails are a pretty big issue... Lash: Put the two categories together, one in favor of a trail system and one in favor of only trai'ls on major roadways is 58%. Councilman Workman: I think the Council has, wherever possible done that, except one exception and that was Audubon Road...which should have probably been done but it seemed like it was going nowhere. It wouldn't have been connected with anything for 20 years anyway. But it probably would have been easier now. """"" Mayor Chmiel: ...1 mentioned to you, what is our saturation presently... MUS A line~ And what's going to be our needs outside of that MUSA line... should we sit back as a city and look at developers and give them guidance...have the developers put these parks in for their particular development. And in doing so, eliminate the need for the city to do much of anything except maintenance and upkeep... Have we looked into that further. . . Hoffman: ...other communities are acceptable. My opinion is. ..all private parks. Moderation is fine but I don't... Mayor Chmiel: ...they would put those parks in. They would make...less cost to the city...everybody that says, I want our park. Why can't we get it? And what they don't realize...and so where do we hit that happy medium. . . Schroers: I think it would be nice to have the developers develop what we cail the neighborhood parks. However I think if we set up our own specific guidelines asking the developers to conform to our standards and the type of amenities that we'd like to see in these parks, and the size of them, they would probably say... That could happen. I'm not saying it would. Mayor Chmiel: But, you don't know until you test the waters... ...." I""'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992- Page 3 Lash: We have kicked that idea around before...know several years ago we talked about not necessarily the private park but having the developers develop the parks...donating the property we would give them specs. This is what the park's going to look like when you're done and go ahead and do it. We design it, they provide it but then I think...got into the maintenance of who's going to maintain it...city park. City neighborhood park the same as they are right now but-at least we would get the developed right away as the homes are going in. Schroers: Well this developer going in right across the street here is doing one but what he's doing in terms of what we would do if we were developing a neighborhood park is very, very small. And I'm kind of afraid that in a specific development, people in that development once they had their park established would say, this is our park and we...feel good about other members of the community... Lash: Why would it be any different than the way it is now? would just be there faster. Except it Hoffman: The Lundgren premise is that that's a private park for the people who live there... Schroers: Well I think that Don really keyed when he said that they would have to meet the City criteria and City specifications and they I""'" would have to understand in no uncertain terms that that area was open to the public or to the residents of the city. Not specifically their neighborhood and if you could make something like that float, it'd probably be great. '-'oJ Lash: You know and we're here for the residents. We're not here for the developers...~hey have to...or if it means they have to raise the price of the home $2,000.00, the park is there. It's developed. schroers: There's all kinds of incidentals. What about park and trail dedication fees? I mean we kind of depend on those fees also to develop and maintain the community parks and I know that that's the first thing that they're going to ask for. When we develop the park but you're going to have to waive the... Lash: ...waive the fee if they donate property. This is the same thing... (Someone was making a comment which was not heard on .the tape.) Mayor Chmiel: ...how many other parks are we going to need outside of the existing MUSA line now? ...density is not going to be quite as much in that particular area as we have now within the MUSA area so I... for the southerly portion of the city. And if that portion still have the Lake Ann Park. We have the park right off TH 41 which is... How do we. make all- of this flow? How can we... It's hard to tell. We don't know but I think this is the time, it probably should have been 10 years ~ ago...but right now we'd better start looking ahead because by that time the clock... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22,1992 - Page 4 .."", i . . Hoffman: Your visions are right on. The current shortcoming of our comprehensive plan...does not identify the... What the comprehensive plan does do is identify park deficien6y areas or areas...so when a development comes in... Mayor Chmiel: ...those are the kinds of thirgs we should be thi~king abou t . . . Hoffman: And as your comment stated, that does take us right into the second possible discussion item on the agenda. What is our future of Park and Recreation in Chanhassen?.. Lash: Are you talking specifically...or more philosophy? Hoffman: Very open ended question. Philosophy is a little dry... Councilman Mason: My personal feeling is r would hope that Park and Rec continue... I've had more people being so pleased with the fact that the city has set very high standards for development. We are working on what's going on on Highway 5. We're not being led around...and my own feeling is that I would certainly hope that Park and Rec would feel that same way. I don't think...stand aside and react. It's too late... Councilman Workman: The future of Lake Ann all the way around. Wait until Prince...is there going to be a continuous walkway around that? That's one of the things this city is lacking is...enjoy walking completely around and I guess they can. I guess you can really walk around Lake Ann if you want. ...", schroers: That's ~dentified in the master trail plan...acquiring it at this point. But it is definitely identified. Councilman Workman: Any development that happens around that lake will...or Prince, will trigger acquisition? Todd Hoffman's answer was not picked up on the tape. Councilman Workman: Gorra mentioned a golf course in there. How realistic is that? Hoffman: He said it before the Council so... Councilman Workman: What would be the City's intention with Bluff Creek? Mayor Chmiel: We're looking at that...and there's potentially... Councilman Workman: That could be done with a referendum probably. Mayor Chmiel: Oh yeah, very definitely. No question~..But it is. That's something that~e should think about. Councilman Workman: But I mean if people aren't willing to raise their taxes a buck or what is it, a buck a month? A buck a month and that ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting ",,-.,. September 22, 1992 - Page 5 kind of thing, I'm not sure they're going to, because I know the mood out there is real tight. Mayor Chmiel: Right and if you're getting the kind of reaction I'm getting for a buck here and a buck there...A silent majority unfortunately are not coming out...and I don't blame them. Right now it is tough times for everybody... You've got the jail and the Justice Center too. So everything's going to come at once. And the school can be anywhere from $30 to $50 million yet and that's still...people who are in a position, have lived here all their lives and most of what they own and if they get can't...and I get a little concerned about that. Councilman Workman: Which brings up my mobile home concept. Mayor Chmiel: But it is. There's all kinds of different things~ Schroers: Unfortunately, the people when they do these surveys, this is sent out to them as an individual and what their particular needs and wants and desires are and they don't really have the luxury of looking at the big picture, so to speak as we have. I'd be willing to bet that many people who filled out this survey have no idea the percentage of elementary and preschool kids in the city and what kinds of facilities they're going to need. And if they did understand that, I would think that they would have probably shown more support for the development of ~ Bandimere. I mean that's something that, just because they say that they're not in favor of Bandimere, that's not going to fly in 15 years because there's going to be kids allover that need facilities and then we're going to ~e shortsighted in their opinion for not having done something about it. ...50 why wasn't it done 10 years ago. Councilman Mason: Which leads to being proactive and getting into the education mode. Lash: You know I can't help but just flinch a little bit at the term proactive just because in the history of this...between the Commission and the City Council and I think it stemmed from the Commission's and it was labeled proactive at that time. Reaction to things and another word we could call it maybe, more aggressive and I think that there were feelings that it was too aggressive. That the Commission was coming up with ideas that people didn't support. I think like, if you look at Bandimere as an example. We look at that as being proactive. We see that there's going to be a problem down the road but we do a survey and people say I don't want Bandimere and then the next month we come out with a referendum and ask them to vote for Bandimere and it fails and then in 5 months we come out with a referendum and we ask them to vote for Bandimere. You get this reaction from people that we're aggressive. That we're trying to force things on them that they don't want. They don't want to pay for and then you end up getting kind of getting yourself in a bad situation there and I don't want to see that happen again. ~ Councilman Mason: I think's that's true but I think there's a difference. See I think we're maybe getting to semantics here and I understand some of the history of beforehand but when I think of Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 6 --' proactive I think of the codes that developers have to meet. It's not an issue for those people. They know when they come to Chanhassen they have to meet this high standard. It's not like they're going to drop, they're just going to plop a development in here. The reason for that is because this City has taken a stand. Said this is what we need. This is what we have to have. I agree with you. I think if you do a survey and people don't want to do Bandimereand the Park and Rec turns around and wants to do it, that's probably not a good idea. But there are perhaps some other things that could be looked at. Like the need for more land and see to me proactive is things like, we see this survey and we have to get the word out to the community that in 5 years there are going to be so many rug rats flying around here. We don't have the space for it. What do you folks want to do? Lash: Yeah, I think that was the whole point of the survey. To find out where people felt on this before we started sticking our necks out and getting ourselves in that position where we would start to be giving the message that we know what you need. We know better than you what you need and so we're going to give it to you whether you want it or not because we know better than you do. And people don't like that attitude. Schroers: I think we learned our lesson from that program, all of us that have been here long enough have experienced it. I think what we need to do is try and find alternative sources of funding. I don't know what is anticipated in industrial development in the community but if we could tap into park fees from industrial development and turn those fees over to develop or help develop Bandimere, that's one possible avenue to.' pursue or to look at and then I think we need to do some brainstorming and see, look for some othe~ possible ways of funding. It just can't go back to the people. I mean we all sit here and we all pay taxes and how much does everyone of us sitting here, how much deeper do you want to dig into your own personal financial situation for these things? Maybe there's a better way. ...." Councilman Mason: I wonder if another thing that we're not going to find ourselves up against is a lot of the younger, newer people that are moving into Chan are eager to have all this stuff. There are a lot of people who have been living here a long time whodoo't feel t~at way and' I think it's becoming an increasingly sensitive issue. Don addressed that too. I think it's something we all, the Council, whatever Commission you're on... That's a tough issue. Hoffman: If we're going to knock off this agenda. Page 2 we have, what are our priorities? There's a list there which came back as a result of this survey. To improve that list, are their top priorities...othef priorities? Councilman Wing: It seems to me, I think without being proactive...and I can start with Minneapolis. I can show you what that city would look like if soMebody hadn't been proactive. If anybody's ever walked through Carver Park~ I want to show you what that would look like today if somebody hadn't been proactive. We all fought it, we didn't like it. I didn't want sewer and water. I'd like to show you Lake Minnewashta if ..."" somebody hadn't been proactive. The trail system costs money. Park and Rec commission Meeting ~ September 22, 1992 - Page 7 Acquisition of open and natural land for preservation, and acquisition of parkland for future community use. Big ticket items. It can be budgeted for but there's simply going to be a tax increase or a referendum with the bondi ng. .. Par k and ballfield improvements at City Par k. That's a desire that can easily be budgeted for. Easily...so those are enormous things. ...Bandimere Park could be developed out of city funding...but these other items are referendum items. These other items are big ticket items but unless there's a consensus, unless we move, unless we choose to be proactive, we've got nothing because the developers are moving and growing and moving and grooving and they're moving faster than I can, I can't keep track of what new developments are coming in. So I'm proactive. I have three kids in college and..., you've still got to look 20 years down the road...and say we've got to make some decisions. The trail system, Tom wants his basketball court...thet~ail system is open to everybody.from the baby in the backpack to the older couple walking around throughout this entire city. I think that's the greatest gift we could give... Acquisition of ~atural open land if we don't have the... where are we going? I think those decisions have to be made now. They ought to be...tonight.We'll do it. Let's have a referendum. Let's see how much money we can get... I'm going to vote yes for a referendum in terma of land for the parks. That's a big decision for me. I can't afford it right now. What's the option? The option is to do nothing and that's the easy way out. I think...referendum. The City and community has to decide. I'm not going to spend this type of dollars...but I ~ really feel that even though people are hurting today, the majority are going to say, I think they're thinking in the 90's and saying we've got to start preserving land. My own opinion is that a referendum would get fairly good support on some of these issues. Hoffman: I heard this story today. 30 years ago the City of Roseville went out and planned it's park system. TheY said how do we want to do this? Acquire it piece by piece as the City develops, or go out and buy the entire thing. 30 years ago they went out and bought the entire thing for $825,000.00. Bought the entire city's park system. Councilman Wing: ...in today's dollars but the point is, $10 million today is going to be $6~ million tomorrow and the same arguments are going to be there. I was dumbfounded, I was really surprised the community did that. But this is for tomorrow and our kids and future gerierations. These are really intangible items... Councilman Mason: But again, that's an education issue. You know if, I live in Carver Beach. Triple Crown is right next door to me. I can almost guarantee you 98% of those people would say you bet, I'll pay $3.00 a month for a trail system. I've got a 2 year old and a 4 year old and...so I agree with Dick on that. I think if it's done right, and you do the old education. You go out and get the vote, I think you can probably win. "'" Lash: I agree with that too but then when I look at the survey and it says 48% of the people do not favor raising taxes to accomplish it, what do you do? We feel that way but. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 8 ..." Councilman Wing: But 58% comes in and says we want this and this and this and we like this and this. Then they turn around and say, but we don't want to pay for it. Councilman Workman: People are paying $3.00 to $10.00 to $15.00 a d~y to haul their kids somewhere else to do these things. And when you mentioned basketball courts, I like basketball courts. We need some indoor basketball courts in this town and I've said it 100 times. We've got the worst facilities here in the metro. If you figure out the cost that people are taking to send their kids to play hbckey somewhere across town at 3:00 a.m., there's all sorts of different costs. I'm not one to stand up and scream about hockey but. Councilman Mason: I think the issue too is well made. When you send out a survey like this, it's like a wish list for 9nybody. But if they get the whole picture. If they see some of these figures, but I don't think certainly nobody else has the big picture like you ,folks do about what's going to be hap~ening... It seems to me the key is to get that word out. Lash: I have to laugh when I look at.the priorities for people because the last one was installation of ballfields at.Laka Ann and Lake Susan and that's what we just voted to do next year. The first thing we're going to do but that's because we know we can't develop Bandimere and we need to have more ballfields and so that's the cheapest way of getting another ballfield is by lighting it. So I think that we're trying to get around some of these high buck items by doing little band aids here in the best way that we can. .."", Schroers: And the fact that lighting and that sort of thing has...~very year as well as the land values too so we thought this was something viable that we can do and get a pretty good bang for our buck and get it accomplfshed. I like what you're saying about the trail system and the acquisition of the open space and for future parkland. That seems like a big lump to swallow. I wonder if there is some way that we can put those three items, like the trail system, the acquisition of open space for just natural land for preservation and the acquisition of parkland for future community use. Lump it into one referendum item and then provide information such as we've just been discussing along with the items so that people get to see some of the bigger picture and understand that there is no other way of funding these things and if they are indicating to us that this is what they want, they are going to have to fund it through the referendum process. Lash: My fear is that the acquisition of open or natural land is always going to be the piece that's just on the other side of their backyard. If they want an open space, they want the open space by them. They don't necessarily-want the open space somewhere else. Councilman Mason: Part of that's education too. I'm telling you right 'now, I'll go door ~o door if it helps. Councilman" Wing: $0 would I. .....", Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ September 22, 1992 - Page 9 Councilman Mason: And that's the commitment that's going to have to be done. Councilman Wing: This is clearly, the referendum is a big ticket... Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, there's a lot of dollars...and as I mentioned, two other things that are going to come... One, that's already taken place and the other is supposedly it will come up in probably the early part of '93 are the schools. There again they're going to weigh the different things as to what's going to best suit... Education in my estimation... Trails are needed and I've always su~ported on major road~. Marjor areas. Within the residential developments, I think it's stupid. My own opinion. There's no need for that kind of thing. You know people walk down the streets now and they're not being hampered or endangered but I see the needs, as I've said a long time ago, along TH 101. I'd,like to see us probably try to sit in with Eden Prairie, even though we can't get it on our side. See if we could go on a cost share basis with Eden Prairie along TH 101 because those people need an access to get back into town. They're still going to have to cross TH 101 but nonetheless that's the only place you can put it because there's no other place along TH 101 on the Chanhassen side that you can get the trail. You need one along CR 17. Powers Boulevard. You need that extending off and out along TH 101 as well because some of that is going to develop in a short period of time and you get a lot of people out there. There's a whole host of ~. different areas, major areas that those needs are there. We're goi ng to put in one along TH 5 from Powers Boulevard all the way to TH 41 with that road and I assume we're going to have, OT I would presume. Not assume...that trail should be somewhere along that particular part and I think MnDot will probably put that in. Lash: Which one? Mayor Chmiel: Along Highway 5 extending west. On the north side of the highway. You eventually are going to have another road on the south side as well and that's got to be looked at before long... There's a whole bunch of things that we see and I know that you're aware. of these things sitting on the Park and Rec Commission. You even have som~thing along TH 7. That's not a great populous there but we're putting it on Minnewashta Parkway. We'll have a sidewalk system there. So you're going to have to loop that in somehow and eventually CR 117 is going to be built over a period of years and that's another system which will come right down. So you can still bring those people in either by bike or walking or doing anything to come back into downtown. Councilman Wing: You just described a major trail system all inter connecting in... Mayor Chmiel: But not within residential areas as we had on some of these. .. ~ Schroers: As those residential areas develop they more or less connect themselves to the trail systems through their network of streets. They pretty much are designing their development around the major arteries that are in the area. They have to fit in and conform. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 10 Mayor.Chmiel: Yeah, we don't have to tell people where to go to follow the park system trail. Or the trail park system through whatever residential neighborhood. ...if they have signs. Schroers: I think what's real important that are trails go somewhere. I mean you can't jU$t have a trail. . I mean if we were running a trail along Highway 5 out to TH 41 and it sto~ped right there, there was no place to go from TH 41, it would make much sense to run a trail all the way out there. But as it is, what we have in our plans, to connect it to the Arboretum and also to the Lake Minnewashta County Regional Park and also in the plan is to try somehow to go along Highway 7 and connect'into Minnewashta Parkway and make a big loop so that you can get to where you want to go and that's absolutely essential. It doesn't pay to spend a dime on a trail that wo~'t take you anywhere. . Councilman Wing: . I think that your comments on other issues such as schools is...we should be doing what's best for the City long term... you've given up your right to the future at that time. Then you're going to live with it. Mayor Chmiel: Who's the...school referendum on? Don Ashworth: . You want to do a special. You want to do it as a part of the general elec~ion, then there's really no cost. I don't know that I would agree that we have to do a referendum. I think the Council and Park Commission can...much more proactive for our overall park system... Frontier Trail. There really wasn't a desire to do it at that point in time. Now I hear Council members sayi ng yes, we want them on more' major type of roads. As Don had described, everyone of these roadways through her~ are going to be going through upgrading in the next 5 to 10 years. Moving from a rural section into an urban section is the point in time when you can put in the bike lane. We have a policy in place that everyone is in agreement. This is what we want. Communicate it now to the County. These things... It deals with parks and right now we're looking at obtaining additional park fees somewhere in here, on the school site may become a pa~k for us. Opus, we~ll lOok toa park in there. If you look to any of our neighborhoods, this park was put in as development occurred around it. We had some growing pains in that whole process but we did it. All of these parks basically went in as development occurred. We did it. We lived within the budgets. Yes, some of it didn't come on quite as... I really have no fear that we can, as this area develops, we're going to be able to create green spots throughout here and we're going to be able to do it without the necessity for a referendum. We may want to look to some supplemental to it so that, like this one here. The entir~ development almost had... We had some additional fundi ng we wouldn't have to wait unt.il the last house is done before we could put in the last piece of equipment. I don't know if it wi 11 take a... referendum, especially as i.t deals with the trai 1 system. One of the things we should do is have a joint meeting with the Park Commission and the HRA. If there is any agency around here that has money. it's the HRA., That's kind of a joke staff line but. Lash: You know that was one of the priority things on the survey and I think the Commission feels this way too. ...and with the new HRA plan ...." ...."I ...", ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 11 for, what is it called? Central Park here. That's got a big impact on City Center and that's one thing tonight I hope that we have the time to look at because that's a big issue for me. If we end up losing a facility when we're already at a crunch and trying to figure out what to do with it and if that's something we can use HRA funding for, in the right area, that would be a nice thing to be able to develop and it wouldn't cost any tax dollars. Don Ashworth: Don and I have talked about that. That actually is right on the edge of the district but with moving the road from this side over to that side, I perceive that the HRA 1 i terall y is acqui ring par kland. At least it would be my position that they should replace the parkland that they take. If that means buying the Hanson property up here and improving that, that's what should be done. Lash: That's my opinion too. Schroers: What I would like to see is, we have a standard right outside the door here. This trail system that runs along Kerber Boulevard is used continuously. It's beautiful. It by-passes two community parks. One an active use park. One an open space or preservation area. Whatever you want to call it. Passive use park is the terminology we use on that but that should set the standard. If we could set up the whole city on a system like what we have here on Kerber Boulevard, we'd be ,~ looking good. That's wonderful. Where did we get the money to develop the trail system along Kerber? Don Ashworth: There again, if the Commission is working with the Council. You've got a clear direction. This was done as a public improvement project so when we built the roadway, we built the trails on both sides. It did not have to come out of the Park and Recreation budget. But it was done as just a part of the overall improvement. You've got a similar opportunity to do that again back like with Laredo and Great Plains Boulevards and some of those...but the decision at that point in time really wasn't to do that. Schroers: Shame on us if we ever miss an opportunity like that again. Lash: Well if you're talking about Great Plains and trying to equ~te that with Kerber. I mean Kerber goes like Larry says, past Chan Ponds. Goes past the schopl. It goes past City Center Park and it comes directly into down~own. So you've got, that's a high'useage area right. there where Great Plains Boulevard is just, if I'm thinking, that kind of runs behind St. Hubert's? Ashworth: Yeah, on the west side of 78th. Lash: You know, I mean that's a totally different layout in my mind. Schroers: Right, but as we're formulating the whole program here, what we're talking about is the main arteries and they will pretty much all. ,.... Lash: But if Great Plains was passed up, I look at that as it's not a main artery, so. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 12 --' Hoffman: Pla,n.If to say so described right now I see this really as a pep talk. We have the Comprehensive you do not agree with that comprehensive trail plan, you need this evening so cManges can be made but the routes which Don and everybody else describes are on this piece of paper but they're just a bunch of lines... Schroers: They are prioritized also though, right? Hoffman: The comments there...completed 2 or 3 miles for the past 10 years, we wouldn't be sitting here talking about it because this would be in place... You have the comprehensive plan. That tells us where. Don's comments in regard to the upgrading of our roads are...in my discussions with Charlei and the engineering department, we keep in very close touch and then back down to the County as to what's going on. Then...the comments about these little segments that go nowhere., Those scare me because correct, they don't go anywhere tight now but the last leg of Audubon didn't go anywhere. We had some residents who didn't like it but everybody sits here tonight and says it's on our comprehensive plan s6 we should do it. But then that opportunity did not go with it. So we have to make some hard and fast decisions but then when we're faced with residents who say no...comprehensive trail plan but I'don't want it in front of my house, then we have to stand united and continue to ~ay no. That's our goals. Our City's comprehensive trail plan. We'd like to see that go through...and those are the hard decisions. When we leave this room united... Lash: Yeah, and I agree with what you just said but there's just no way that we could have ever done 3 or 4 miles every year at $100,000.00 a mile when our revenues were only $30,000.00 to $40,000.00. ...,,; Hoffman: But in unison with road projects, Minnewashta Parkway and... Lash: And we've done that when we could but. Hoffman: For most cases, that's correct. Schroers: I think we're looking at the major trails and the major connectors to be done along with road improvements and upgrading. That sort of thing. And then the smaller connectors on the comprehensive plan through development. When the developers come in. We're worried they're taking the dedication or asking them to develop the trails and in that mode, the entire system should be able to be developed. Lash: Don, did you say earlier that almost all of the things marked on here in the.next 5 to 10 years would be road improvements? That we would be able to accomplish this then without... Ashworth: I think so. I see Pleasant View is on here. That's one we missed because we...but most of the others, except for...That still is going to have to be addressed. Literally Cros~town drops onto that roadway...two lane road. Lash: So the question we have to ask ourselves is, do we want to wait 5 ...,,; to 10 years to accomplish this at minimal cost to us or do we want to get Park and Rec Commission Meeting I""'" September 22, 1992 - Page 13 it sooner and ask for tax dollars to accomplish it? Mayor Chmiel: I believe you'd be throwing money away if you were to do that. Hoffman: Yeah, I wouldn't advocate that. The thing that a referendum could do is, you could ask for a pot of money because on some of these, the city's going to have to ante up out of their pocket for a portion. If they don't have it available, then we might lose our opportunity. But to go out to the voters and ask for a pot of money. $3 million for, well we're going to spend it. What are you going to spend it on? We're going to spend it when an opportunity, a trail comes up and we can pay a portion of it...but I'm not an advocate of going out. I don't believe that the trail referendums which failed, even though they failed by a very small margin,\the map which went out corresponding with that referendum, you couldn't have bought all those trails with that money. Mayor Chmiel: We're going to be fiscally responsible... Ashworth: Even if you made the decision, yeah. Let's go out after. You can't. Where you've got rural sections, the ditches, you haven't got a place to put a trail system in so I mean, even if making the assumption you put $300,000.00 towards anyone segment, when you've got nowhere inside of there, you've got to sp~nd the $3 million to do the road .1""'" improvement along Minnewashta Parkway. Then you could spend $300,000.00 to put a trail next to it. But until then you really can't do it. Councilman Workman: Let me ask a question about the possible community type of center and I would never again advocate that it goes to a referendum. But in fact the HRA is probably the only way that could be done. While we're upgrading, the hotel's adding on and Filly's is becoming a movie theatre and conference center and all sorts of other things. Then the possibility of gyms in there but that's not even the first phase. We've got a school..~to me where we're not planning is in that area of facilities as the population gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And what we talked about before, the cost of taking your kids down to the community center in Chaska, which I've been to once. Frankly it's not convenient for me. Gymnasiums, just simple gymnasium space. I don't need whirlpools, saunas, huge weight rooms and all the other stuff. Just simple bare bones facilitLes so people can play basketball or floor hockey or Jazzercise or whatever. Is that out of the picture? Is that then...I know the HRA is going to have more money than they're going to have things to spend it but. Sch~oers: The position that Park and Rec took on the community center issue as it was proposed previously was that we're not going to touch it with a 10 foot pole. when people start breaking down the door and demanding a community center and a place to provide us with those kind of needs so we know we'll have their support in trying to acquire it then, I mean that's the way we felt about it after we really got slammed for trying hard. r- Councilman Workman: Well that's because it was going to raise taxes and you start getting into, would you be willing to spend about the price of Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 14 ...." a pizza month on this? People get real suspicous. Wait a minute. I've heard this before... It's not going to get done unless the HRA. I've know this for years that it's not going to get done unless the HRA does it and the HRA can do it better. And the HRA, we're doing this community center type project down here with all this other stuff going on. I mean we're proposing a million, ~illion and a half city center park out here in front of the front step out there and just one person shows up, we held that public hearing open for 5 months and he Just counted the trees and said ther~'s just too many damn trees. But he thought it was a good idea. That's about a million and a half in land acquisition and trees and shurbs and all sorts of stuff. Not that the HRA was a good pl~ce to hide these things but they go off really without any fanfare and the I HRA's done an awful lot for this community and they're going to be able to do a lot more and that's why it's unfortunate for me, and people who leave the HRA that, you know the good years are coming. You're going to be able to really get some accomplishment out of that. schroers: I think the Park and Rec maybe needs more exposure with the HRA. We've really had very little to do with them in the past and aren't that knowledgeable in what we could accomplish if we work together with them. Koubsky: I agree with you too Tom. If you look at this survey and you look at the number of small kids that we've got, we're living in Minnesota. It's cold in Minnesota and there's nothing for these kids to do from November until April. ...",I councilman Workman: They've got some kind of gymnasiums with ceramic at the elementary school and St. Hubert's is ceramic. Both of which are... no inside. They're c,ramic tile inside and they're really wOTthless. And those kind of things. I d6n't mean to have this big, I've never intended that the city should have what Chaska has. But a bare bones that looks nice facility where people can do things. It doesn't have to be real expensive. I know you get into that hockey thing and I'm not a hockey nut and that's a huge, huge cost but community type center with rooms and I would say three gymnasiums or something so that a walking track on top and a place where people can go in the wintertime with kids. Mayor Chmiel: You don't want a T'aj Mahal. You want just a small castle. Lash: Then you've got hockey people saying, well if we're going to put that in there, then we need an ice rink. Then you're going to have, you know you get all these different groups of people who say, well I don't want that unless we're going to have racquetball courts because I like racquetball and I don't want it unless they're going to have an ice rink. Councilman Workman: Well an ice rink is a broader base thing and I went to high school down in Chaska and everybody that played hockey was from Chanhassen. That's where they all came from you know. And so I think this is a hockey area and I don't think the Cit~ could go wrong with that. I personally it isn't as close to my heart but it's something I think the City would probably use too. It's something within the scope ~ of what I think the HRA could do. And I know that we're going to Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,..... September 22, 1992 - Page 15 eventually, I know that it's going to eventually become very, very much loud and clear that this community's going to love it. What you have is, and I think most of us have kids. Erickson, you don't. Yeah you do. Erickson: I've got a dog. Councilman Workman: ...well my daughter's already 7 know you. And so there's such a short time span where people say, well the little park right behind me. They put this two phase like playground equipment; First phase is in there. Great. People think I got that because I'm on City Council. Second phase is 1996~ My gosh, she'll be 10 or 11 by then where she won't even use a swing. But there's that short little time span in there that, yeah. This segment now and then another segment in two years because these people will say, well my kid's getting ready for college you know. So you've always got this flushing and it's a constituency that keeps changing. I think open spaces and trails have never changed. You can walk on them when you're 17 and you're walking on them even more when you're 69, right Don? But those community centers for the youth keep flushing through here. You know what I mean? The youth keep flushing through here. I don't mean to set up an expensive minor league training camp for any hockey teams OT college teams but they're doing it. They're just not doing it here and it is costing this community dollars to go somewhere else. ,....., Lash: It's not that people don't support it. They just don't want to pay for it. Councilman Workman: That's exactly what I understand. Lash: Not that they don't want it. They just don't want to pay for it. Schroers: They also know what's around. They know what's in Eden Prairie and they know what's in Chaska and when it comes time for us to develop a community center, we're going to have to conform to standards. I mean I think that it would be hard to sell a facility that offered limited experiences. I think we're going to have to kind of conform to what is state of the art and look at things like having some convention space. Something like that available that we could rent out portions of it and generate some kind of maintenance, upkeep, operation type money from the facility. Councilman Workman: Chaska right now is discussing very heavily their community theatre complex. I mean they're going way out here. And you think Chanhassen would be taking the lead with the Dinner Theatre and everything in town and Prince and we're a rather theatrical community. But I ki nd of looked at them and said gee. They r,eall yare looki ng ahead here at some different things and they're spending some dollars on some things that the community could easily say, well we don't need that you know. It's one of those things and I'm not one of your artsy craftsy guys but I think it would accentuate Chaska. Let's face it, they need something. They need culture down there... ,.... Schroers: Maybe they could get some culture from us and we could get some funding from them. How are they able to do all that? Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 ~ Page 16 ....",. Councilman Workman: Well they stuck $8 million of tax increment financing. They didn't go to any bond referendum for that community center. Mayor Chmiel: I still don't know how they did it. Councilman Workman: Well they did it. I mean they stuck, nobody voted on it. They did a lot of testing of the community to see if they would like it: Polling by professional firms and said ~kay, we're going to go do it. They jumped in and they did it. Now they've got a nice plaque on the wall. The Council members. $0 they're doing all that stuff because they're running out of things they can do you know but the money's there and they set it back and get 18 cents back on t~e dollar. Mayor Chmiel: No, they're just trying to get it... Koubsky: The thing about Chaska too is your basketball courts, your hockey rinks, a lot of those are the schools. We have a grandiose vision to put in an elementary school out on TH 5 and... You're saying okay. If we put in an elementary school, you've got to build a big gym that isn't made for elementary kids. It's made for the populous. Why not think ab6ut Jr. High. Okay, that doesn't have enough room for a Jr. High. Well let's find an area that's got enough room where we can build...some tennis courts or basketball 60urts or something... ....,I Mayor Chmiel: We're already looking at that right now. Lash: But who knows down the road how long it's going to be before there's another...that could be a long time: Koubsky: The school's are coming... Lash: But the HRA can do whatever they want. They have the money and you know you go back to the old community center thing that you were talking about earlier, the Park and Rec had very limited involvement in that. That was a whole separate body at the time. I think both times it went for referendum I don't think the Commission was involved. Maybe it's something where there needs to be ~ joint effort between the Commission and the HRA funding. Schroers: It was a task force actually that was formed for that. Lash: And there again, that was another one .of those things where it was, people felt like. Schroers: There was friction. Lash: Yeah, there was friction involved and it was, man we just voted it down and now here it is again. We've got this small faction of people who are on this one issue and they're going to keep giving it to us until we just rollover and'take it. And that irritates peopl~ so they vote . against it and it's like cutting off your nose to spite your face. They just do it to iend a message like, and don't do it to me again. And so if we can get the facility. I don't think it was that people did not ...."" ,..... Par k and Rec Commission Meeti ng September 22, 1992 - Page 17 want the facility. They just did not want to have to pay for it. But if we can get it... Councilman Workman: Well you know, on that Highway 5 and Market the City has been talking about for years at least. Barton-Aschman entry monuments. There's going to be, you all know this, it's going to be about 8 feet tall. Brick wall on the northeast corner. Chanhassen. It's going to have like a maple leaf on it in a circle but for half a year or more, we had some basic prototypes about what was going to be there and these five guys, including myself on the HRA went ooh... I mean we could decorate a bathroom you know. Lash: That's because there's no women on the HRA. Mayor Chmiel: I don't agree with that. We can always bring a newspaper. I""" Councilman Workman: And so we have this big thing, this big huge thing and I swear to God I wasn't going to approve that. If there ever was a phallic symbol it was it, and no way. So we're looking at this thing you know and we didn't know and we finally, all of a sudden Jeff Farmakes from the Planning Commission who's a real creative guy came in with a great (simple design and we could say that's, we jumped and that's it. Let's go, move on you know but they're not that creative and I think they want help to...But I think that's the risk taking body. Not risk taking but $27 some million bucks to fool around with or send to the County. And that can get it accomplished. Mayor Chmiel: That's what the incentive of TIF is really, and everybody I know is aware of that but I'd just like to reiterate...because of those TIF dollars, if we didn't have those dollars, we couldn't do half the things we do within the city. And sure, it should be given to the County and School District if it wasn't being used for TIF but nonetheless, we still have a certain amount of things to accomplish in this town .and the only way to accomplish it is through the HRA through the TIF. Lash: You know is there some way that you guys can educate people as to how that works. I mean people don't have a clue so when all of a sudden a community cente.r gets built and you tell them no tax dollars were used for it and they go yeah, right. I mean they don't believe that in a second and they figure somewhere along the line they're paying for this but just nobody will tell them. Mayor Chmiel: Give them the number at City Hall, 937-1900 and ask for Ashworth. Ashworth: I'll make a copy of that. Mayor Chmiel: Yeah, maybe in our next newsletter we should put something pertaining to that. ,..... Berg: I would bet that a sizeable majority don't know what the HRA is. Lash: Oh they have no idea. Nobody knows what that stands for. ever used those letters, they have no idea what they stand for. If I They Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 18 -' have no idea what TIF is. What it stands for or what it is. Councilman Workman: Well it's just capturing the excess that you've got a lousy gas station that's making $2,000.00 in taxes a year and now you're going to put a Target on that's going to make $100,000.00. The increment is the $98,000.00. You keep sending the County the $2,000.00 they're always getting but now you clean the joint up and you've got $98,000.00 to take care of the waste and put into the sewer and help clean up the site. So you've got this extra money for all these years that's generating to help with other projects. And so it's kind of like. Lash: But then people look at that and say, well wait a minute. Target's going in, the reason I want Target to go in is because it's going to go onto our tax base and it's going to lower my taxes so when they hear that 98% of it is going to go to, main street then they kind of. Councilman Workman: But it eventually will and because you're helping them with a lot of their facilities, it's one of the reasons why they'll come in. Hoffman: It still is helping you Jan in that those TIF dollars that are being collected, the State does not see'those so they look back on here and they say, your revenue poor because you're only giving them $2,000.00 so we can give you a lot of State Aid money. So the'State Aid money goes into Chanhassen to get your taxes low. That $98,000.00 which you ~ collected off of Target, it's a wash. It doesn't effect you. That's even harder. Lash: And you're trying to tell someone that their taxes are staying low. Councilman Workman: In theory what we do is, we take the $98,000.00 and give it to the County and then the County would disperse it to the School District and they'd disperse it back to us. But how much would we g~t back from the County? 18 cents. 20 cents on the dollar. So rather than $98,000.00 we get, and then. Mayor Chmiel: Just recently Don and I sat down in a discussion of whether or not TIFshould be... We did an analogy and a study and that study so indicates that we're better to continue with the TIF than to completely eliminate it because once it's eliminated, those taxing dollars that were to come in, that you can entice people to get here, are no longer there and theiefore the School is not going to get those kinds of taxes. Ashworth: Or the County either. Lash: Because the businesses won~t come here to start with? Mayor Chmiel: That's right. And we sat down. We went through that here just 4 weeks ago. And it just pays for the City to continue with it. I have been an advocate of -saying, okay. Let's cut the years on it so we can turn it back over and we've done some of that but to continue that, ~ ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 19 it's not in the best interest for the City or the School District nor the County. That's what it really boils down to. Lash: Do you see wh~t I'm saying? 1 mean 1 feel like I'm barely involved and have been for a few years and I still don't get how this all works. So then you look at average Joe Blowout there, they don't have a clue and no matter what you do, they think they're getting the short end of the stick. And they just don't get it. Councilman Mason: And there's nothing you can do about that. You know those of us that were here for the Highway 5 Task Force. We had that big deal where all the concerned citizens could come in. Ther~ were 15 people in the room. 3 of them were attorneys for Eckankar and Fleet Farm. 10 people were involved, there was one person from the community. You know and that unfortunately is I think the burden, those of us that are interested in city government or how things work have to face because they will be here... Lash: 1 always figure the answer is, put it in the paper and then I find out I'm the only person in town who reads the paper... I mean I have enough of a knowledge that 1 can handle it but I know there are people... ~ Councilman Workman: ...people who don't want to understand. I think Chanhassen was one of the leaders. I was in a Transit meeting. A Legislative Transit Subcommittee meeting down at the State Capitol about a month ago and Byron..., a Minneapolis legislator who thinks he's quite bright, and he named Chanhassen specifically as a community who's developing at the expense of all of Minneapolis. I mean there'$ this us and ~e and them kind of deal and we're operating in, I think because of Don Ashworth, we're operating and taking advantage of laws that really no longer exist. Pre-1979? Pre-1979 tax increment that really how many other communities did that? Ashworth: Eight. Councilman Workman: Eight in the state and so we've even got a bigger advantage. And so that's why it's difficult and it is. It's too late to say we should just get out of it because gee... Hoffman: Well we're going to wind down. It's not surprlslng that much of the discussion centered around dollars this evening. That's what the funding of the annual capital improvement program is going to talk about. Currently we're a fairly new community so it's not surprising that we charge when new people come into town to build parks. But we're also spending that new money to come back and retrofit old parks. Update old parks. In other communities, that's not th~ case. Those old parks, established areas are finding that there's no more funds. The question there, how long do we rob Peter to pay Paul. I mean the till runs dry at some point. Itis lucky that we're continuing to develop at a fairly ~ rapid pace so we can continue to do that. But we need to put some thought into that area. Golf course, we talked about that briefly. Erickson: Wait a minute. I had a question on the golf course. I'm a little naive, new to a lot of this kinds of stuff. But a couple meetings Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 -~eage 20 ...,;i ago we mentioned about this golf course thing and you said there isn't a golf course that doesn't make money. Could a ~olf course be the money tree for us? I mean can that beef up the parks? I mean you may not 'be able to put in a trail system but could that bring in $20,000.00 a year that we could use to upgrade and keep parks going? It might cost, I mean didn't you, wasn't it even said that you could finance this at Norwest Bank to buy this thing and pay it off and then in 20 years we've got a money tree standing there that's bringing in money to pay for all of our parks. Am I naive? Is that what I heard or, you guys know numbers better than I do. Is that true? Hoffman: It depends on who you talk to but most people would say you'll make money. Then you will say, you can mismanage the operation, the land purchase, anything and if that is one that's managed, you'll still come out ahead. Others will say no, it's tougher than that. But if ~ou include the acquisition cost. Mayor Chmiel: It's a real controversial kind of thing. Some of them, and we've gone over this extensively, where they say they're making the dollars. It's a big money tree. In some instances that money tree does not go back into the general fund. It's directed in different locations but sometimes ihe way it's directed is not the fiscal way to go...and therefore the cost to the city in operational as well. It ,depends on, and I think Don can...as well, things that we have talked about and thought about and really contemplated on how and what is the ~ best way to go. As we mentioned a golf c6urse over here. We don't want to see that develop. I don't want to see that develop. Maybe the best thing is to get an... The, other question is, are they willing to sell. And if they are willing to sell and they know we're a buyer, they're, going to hold us up. And so you have to really watch that. When we first started the new golf course, those first five years you can only' take x number of people on board at that course because it takes time to build that course up to get it at full capacity. So it takes time with that as well. Erickson: The thing I'm really thinking is an investment today ~o that 15 years down the road we have a money tree. Councilman Workman: I think where golf courses get into trouble isin their bar and kitchen and their fancy clubhouse deals. If you're looking at Bluff Creek with their half built clubhouse, you know a tin shed but golf courses are jammed at $22.00 a throw and I know I stood before the Park and Rec and a lot of people wanted open space. Well, this is open space with a turnstile on it that will help pay for it so you get your open space: Yeah, you wouldn't want to walk out there in the middle of a Sunday afternoon for f~ar of getting hit but for a lot of the year, those are just nice open spaCeS for cross country skiing or whatever. Hoffman: If you're making the payment on Bluff Creek today and you wait until there is another plan or development and say, well wait a minute. We don't want you to develop that. We want to buy it as a golf course. You're going to pay much more dearly at that time. ...,.tI ~ Park and'Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 21 Councilman Mason: I think one thing we do have to remember with the Bluff Creek thing is, there's an awful lot of land there in that ravine that should be preserved. And certainl~ something to think about is if we were to acquire that golf course, then we've accomplished an awful lot. There are a lot of if's there but. Lash: I think last year when we toured there, we said it. Councilman Mason: Right. Right. Lash: If we could get this, it's killing two birds with one stone. We're getting the golf course, which you know it maybe would make a money tree for us later and we're preserving that area and that's very important to us too. Schroers: I've never been actually on that course. Is that a decent golf course? ,.... Councilman Workman: With a couple of changes on some holes. See the biggest problem with it, and a lot of people who golf, like I do, don't like it just because it's not maintained very well. The traps aren't necessarily raked every day and after a rain, if a trap isn't raked every day with a machine, it's not really a trap. The ball just kind of rolls on the dirt, or gravel. And trimming and you can tell it's not really well taken care of and so it's a big enough money tree for these people that yeah, what the heck. People are coming here in droves and paying big bucks and I'm not taking care of it. And you know the very first hole is a par 5, dogleg left that if you hit it too hard, it's going to go down the hill and you're done. I mean it's like how do I get my driver out on a par 5 and try and pinpoint where I'm going to land my ball. You need to straighten that out. Schroers: You've got to practice more. Is that a 9 hole course? Councilman Workman: No, it's an 18. Erickson: The number I heard, and please take my sources into account, a bartender. told me, who's a very close friend of the son of the guy who owns Bluff Creek and I don't know..., he said they pull in about $8,000.00 a weekend on that coUrse. That's a weekend. Schroers: Is that above and beyond operating costs? ,.... Hoffman: We're going to finish up here...our meeting. Central Park. We touched upon it briefly. I would hope we have the HRA's backing when they come up and knock out a ballfield and that type of thing, that we go ahead and acquire that vacant piece of land to the north and do some refurbishments up there. City Center Park is an area very important too. The 1993 Park Acquisition and Development CIP will be coming to you. It's been developed by the Park Commission and will be coming. to the Council as part of the budget process. Thanks Don. Preservation of open space we talked about. Highway 5 corridor. We touched upon a few times. Jim Andrews is the member of the commission on that task force. If you have particular concerns in that regards, please see Jim... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 22 ...", The joint Park and Recreation Commission and City Council portion of the meeting was adjourned. Chairman Schroers called the regular Park and Recreation Commission meeting to order at 8:30 p.m.. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Berg moved, Lash seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated August 11, 1992 as amended by Randy Erickson on page 33, deleting the first sentence in the sixth paragraph, and on page 38, changing the phrase "Nerf Hockey" to "nerd hobby". Also, approving the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated August 25, 1992 as amended by Jan Lash on page 40, changing the statement under Fall Recreational Schedule attributed to Lash to Hoffman. All voted in favor and the motion carried. LAND DEVELOPMENT PROPOSAL. CONCEPT SITE PLAN REVIEW: GATEWAY WEST BUSINESS PARK. OPUS CORPORATION. Public Present: Name Address Michele Foster, Opus Corporation, P.O. Box 150, Minneapolis 55440 Tom Kordonowy, Steiner Development, 3610 So. Hwy 101, Wayzata 55391 Howard Dahlgren, Dahlgren, Shardlow, Uban, 300 1st Avenue No, Mpls ....., Hoffman: Thank you Chairman Schroers and Park Commissioners. Before we begin I believe it would be appropriate to introduce the folks that we have here in the audience. Michele Foster in the second row is the Director of Land Development at Opus Corporation. The other gentlemen, I'll let them introduce themselves to the Commission and let them address with you what their cOnnection with this project is. Howard Dahlgren: My name is Howard Dahlgren. I'm the past President of Dahlgren, Shardlow and Uban, Land Planning Consultants. ..Tom Kordonowy who is the President of Steiner Development...partners. Tom Kordonowy: ...reside~t of Chanhassen. I have four Chanhassen and I enjoy the City very much. Hoffman: Thank you. The concept review which you have before you is for an office/industrial planned unit development on 178 acres of property currently zoned agricultural estate. The location, as you can see by your location map, is the southeast quadrant of Highway 5 and 41. In the northwest quadrant of West 78th Street and Highway 41. We reviewed this map throughout the meeting but I believe it would be appropriate.~. significance in size. Again, the proposal is in that southeast quadrant of Highway 5 and 41. The boundaries to the west would be Highway 41, State Highway and the Arboretum... This also runs directly into the City of Chaska... Back to the east you have a vacant parcel of property slated for high density residential to the north and lower density or single family residential to be developed immediately east of that where we run into Timberwood... As you can see, it's a significant... To go through the adjacent, the current zoning again to the north is agr.icul tural estates. To the south, the City of Chaska and their ......" ,.... ",.... ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 23 industrial park. East, agricultural and then west again, agricultural and the U-of M Landscape Arboretum. In regard to the City's Comprehensive Plan, it identifies this area of the city as park deficient. Specifically the plan labels the area which encompasses this proposed development as Park Deficiency Zone No.7. The acquisition of a significant park area which incorporates as many of the natural features offered by this site referring to the tree cover, topographic diversity, developable land, vistas, wetland areas, is highly desireable. The applicant as a part of their narrative, as you have read, has currently identified slightly.less than 30 acres of property as parkland. The vast majority or so be it, the majority of that property however is wetland and currently is in that state. The area which would also include a holding pond which is necessary to mitigate the filling of wetlands on this site, and for storm water retention. The open space identified on the current sketch plans are comprised of two separate parcels. Lot 17 and Lot 18 being 5.9 and 24 acres in size respectively. Nobody contests that area such as those being identified as parks are beneficial. However, labeling these areas as park is not necessary to protect them as wetlands. As you know, no park credit fees, no credit to park fees are given for the dedication of wetlands as public space areas as a part of a development proposal. The wooded and upland areas of Lot 18 would earn the applicant partial credit of park fees. Excluding any park fee credits, this proposal would generate in the area of $350,000.00 in park fees revenue. The City standards for a community parks call for a site totally in it's entirety, 25 to 50 acres. Community park affords natural features of varied physiographic interests as we discussed earlier. A community park is an area of natural or ornamental quality for outdoor rec,eation such as walking, viewing, sitting, picnicing and may incorporate areas for field and court games. P,oximity to community facilities and resources obviously is also important. The concept plan submitted to date,which you have befo,e you, takes the first_ few steps in creating an a,ea offering these qualifies. Again, just as the city recognizes the impo,tance of these areas, I believe the applicant does as well. We just need to work th,ough the process of coming to an ag,eement of what that all exactly means. In addition to your packet you have before you an aerial topographic view which shows you in better cla,ity how this site lays out. The large blue line which you have laying before you, that will show you a little bit better exactly the areas which are currently identified as pa,ks and open space and how they actually look in the field. So please feel free to refer to that as we go through this. As far as the ,ecommendation in regards to the City Comprehensive Plan, it is ,ecommended that the Park and Rec,eation Commission ,equest the applicant provide, as a part of their proposal, a community park site. This site to include sufficient land of suitable character and topography to include natural vistas, affording sufficient area for viewing and picnicing, a designated 8 foot wide bituminous trail with multiple access points connecting the wooded and upland portions of the site with picnicing and viewing areas and the street plan and sidewalks. Sufficient area for the possible construction of two ballfields, a basketball court, a double-tennis court, and sufficient upland a,eas to buffer these amenities, very similar to what you see at Lake Susan Park in the community at present. This will require the designation of conside~able more property than called out on the sketch plan. However, it is desireable that all parkland confo,mance be contiguous or lie next Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 24 to each other, meaning both the active components and then th~ wetland components as part of this proposal.. This park shall also maintain considerable road frontage to afford visible impact as well as allowing for sufficient egress and ingress and parking aieas. Conversations today with some of the representatives we have here is that, this may certainly be possible that it needs to make economic sense and we don't dispute that. Any property the City would be desiring to acquire. the applicant would certainly be compensated for. Which fund that comes out of may~ is still not answered. As you discussed tonight, the applicant will come in for a financing plan under TIF, Tax Increment Financing. A portion of the park or the facility which eventually is realized here, could be financed as it was at Lake Susan with those TIF dollars. A portion of it could be financed with park fees as eluded to that this de~elopment would eventually maintain at $350,000.00 or better in park fees. So I'll be interested to hear what the commission, what your thoughts are in regards to the comprehensive plan and what that means to this area, as I'm sure the applicant will as well. Comprehensive trail plan is somewhat simpler. More simple. The comprehensive trail plan calls for a location of an 8 foot wide bituminous off street trail on the north and west perimeters of the site, being Highway 5 and Highway 41.' We can anticipate that the section,of trails to the north will be completed in conjunction with ~he next phase of construction of Highway 5 as we discussed this evening. This trail when constructed, will lie on the north side of the highway. In regards to Highway 41, the applicant has not incorporated into their sketch plan the section of trail identified in the City comprehensive plan. There may be good reason for that,in' that the applicant has had conversations and the City would certainly be interested in entering into those as well with MnDot so that the desire of lowering the road level ~here at Highway 41, when you turn south off of Highway 5 and you directly begin to ascend that steep hill. It would be to everyone's benefit to bring that down. At the time that that road project would be undertaken, that would be a very reasonable time to go ahead and put that trail system in. But again with the timeframes and the forecasts of MnDot, I'm not sure that we want to hang our hat on that. Those roadway projects can drag out for 5, 10, 15 years depending on funding sources, etc. Dependent upon th~ likelihood of the State doing so, at the proposed time we may concur with that position. It's up to the Commission and City Council to decide. This section will at itself terminous the one going south on Highway 41. It will be an important link with Chaska's trail system. In regards to lnteral pedestrian traffic routes or sidewalks, they are necessary as a part of this plan and will be addressed by the Planning Department and Commission. The minimum amount of revenue this development could generate in traiJ fees upon it's completion, excluding any credit, is $114,000.00. The recommendation in regard to trails is that the Park Commission request the applicant to incorporate into their proposal and site plan the construction of an8 foot wide bituminous trail alon,g the east side of State Highway 41, beginning at State Highway 5, extending south to the existing West 82nd Street. This construction is to be completed by the applicant in accordance with the city standards, specifications in regard to trails. In consideration for that construction, trail fees will be reduced accordingly. That recommendation can be amended as a part of my previous comments in regard to the lowering of the road and'that type of thing. If you would like to --' '-'" .."", ,... ,...., ,...... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 25 see the trail go in at that time, I would amend that recommendation to elude to that. Upon the Commission's request to being incorporated, into the Gateway West Business Park plan, the Park and Recreation Commission will have a second chance to look at this and review their proposal. Schroers: Thanks a lot Todd. I think that staff laid. this out very well. This is a familiar format that we've seen before. It's understandable that unuseable area such as wetlands would make good parks and good natural areas. However, we need property that will also support active use as we are park deficient in that area so a balance of both natural area and active use area I think is what we're going to be striving for here and that was put down quite well in the recommendation I believe. I'm looking for input or discussion from other commissioners. Lash: I have two quick questions for Todd and the applicant I guess. The first one would be, is there any timeframe that anyone knows of for TH 41? Do you have inside information? Michele Foster: We have had conversations with MnDot, with Evan Green at MnDot as far as road improvements for Highway 5...and our request to include the access on Highway 41. There's no definitive time table, although he has indicated that they are looking at the 1996 timeframe but feel if there is significant interest on the part of both the cities of Chaska and Chanhassen, that there may be some pressure that can be brought to bear to find funds in oider to move that up on the schedule. We are certainly very interested in having that happen because we feel it's very important to the development of this property to improve that access and I think from conversations with both the Planning Department of Chanhassen and with the City of Chaska, that there would be significant support for seeing that, those improvements made. But until we get further alon~ in this process and the City has taken some more definitive approvals for the concept that we're talking about, we haven't been able to bring that pressure to bear at this point but we are prepared to do that... Lash: But the farthest down the road would be 1996? Michele Foster: That's what they say today. Berg: Is that tied in at all with the completion of 212? Michele Foster: NO...it's a separate issue. There may be some improvements there now. I think they...to be more improvements there and it's a question of I think...to make that priority for the State, as they are open to that discussion. Berg: Because I was under the impression they were going to be looking at redoing TH 41 when 212 connected. Have you heard anything about that? I'm wondering if the way that 212 is being. Michele Foster: To the best of my knowledge, no. But again, that issue still needs to be addressed in terms of timing, both from our interest and I think the same for the City as well. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 26 ...", Koubsky: Michele, for this development would you wait for that improvement before you developed or would you develop and then incorporate MnOot's plan? Michele Foster: Well I think we need to understand what their timing is going to be for those improvements. It really is our goal to see those improvements made sooner rather than later. But no, this project is not going to wait for the Highway 41 improvements but it is our goal to get those doneL..as we can and that's why it's our position that we would like that portion of trail not have to be installed immediately. when from a planning purpose it makes sense to understand that but I'm not sure that it makes sense to require the installation... It may also be possible then to use State or Federal fU,nds to install that portion of trail as part of the improvements. It would be nice... Koubsky: That looks like a pretty small issue on this whole thing. Michele Foster: In the whole scheme of things, it is but. Lash: Then Todd my question for you is, in your recommendation regarding the trail it said, in consideration for this construction~ trail fees will be reduced accordingly. Do you have any idea what it would be? Hoffman: Again, in regard to the construction of the. trail, upon f i nishi ng my report the discussions came out about loweri ng Highway 41. I ...""" would not be an advocate of pursuing development of the trail with park development fees by the applicant in light of recent information being brought forward. Chairman Schroers, I believe it, would be valuable at this time if the applicants do have any prepared statements, that the Commission could take those. Schroers: Yes. Okay, thanks. If there is anything that any of the applicants or the representatives of this project wish to share with us, we'd be happy to hear it at this time. Michele Foster: Well I'd like to defer to Howard Dahlgren at this point. His firm has been the planning consultant firm for the project and we'd like to give a brief presentation on what our rationale was in developing the concept and then I can just make a few brief comments after that really about, clarifying our position on the staff recommendation. So with that I guess I'd like Howard... Howard Oahlgren: Thank you very much. We've put together a few transparencies that I thought ~ight be helpful for the Commission to understand our proposal... By the way,' I want you to know that it is our objective here to do this park pretty well. It's a great piece of land. It's important to the city of Chanhassen and Chaska in the sense that it's the gateway to Chaska fro'm the north and gateway to Chanhassen from the west. That's why we're...we want to do the right thing in the right way at the right time. There are some things we can ,do and there are some things that we cannot do. But working together, we want to have the best results here. That's why... -' " ,..... " Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 27 (Mr. Dahlgren's presentation was not being picked up on the tape as he was standing away from a microphone.) Schroers: Okay, could I ask for a little interpretation on that. When you say that the 15.9 of useable land, are you talking about the high ground and treed area? It's the forested area? Howard Dahlgren: Some of it, as you can see from the photo, some of it has, much of it has trees. Some of it does not. ' As you can see here, I think the land that showed trees... Here you can see, the wetlands are shown on here in the dotted line. The trees are shown on here in the lighter green. That shows the relationship of the trees and the overall park site... So the answer is, there's high ground with trees. There's high ground without trees. Schroers: Is there high ground without trees sufficient enough to have playing fields, in your opinion? Howard Dahlgren: Well I think if we leave this as it is, if you move this pond somewhere else, maybe in here or somewhere, there would probably be enough room to put one ball diamond in here. This we can do without your acquiring any land. Now if you're going to extend...then you'd have to acquire it. We don't really want to sell more land since this is the only industrial land that's out here on the west side. We feel that it's in the city's interest to develop this tax base...for it's best useage which we think is for industrial purposes... If you want additional parkland, perhaps it ought to be...residential areas or a pasture area...east and to the north. I'm not trying to plan your park system. What I'm saying is, our intention here is to devel~p a fine~ high quality industrial park. And because of the economic...it's difficult for us to not...we'd like to be able to develop this over a period of time...so it winds up to be in the interest of everyone, the City and over time... The bottom line is though, we want to do a fine job here. We cannot, we weren't even aware of the fact that you wanted to have us provide a 25 to 50 acre park. We simply can't do that. We could do this. Maybe there could ~e some adjustments...but ~e cannot provide a 25 acre park here... I would suggest that perhaps land that is designated for residential might be acquired cheaper than land that's well located for high quality industrial... Schroers: Okay. Is anyone, have you done any kind of concept in regards to what type of park you think that's going to be? I mean for me sitting here looking at what you're proposing, basically what we have there is what we would have to call a passive use park. A natural area. It wouldn't be areal hig~ active use type park. It would b~ a natural area and our mission is to kind of look at our comprehensive plan and to acquire areas that are needed in park deficient areas and assign those parks a purpose and I think that when staff is asking for a community park here in the recommendation, that what we're looking for is a park that offers a balance of amenities where we have some nice natural areas, like you're talking. The oak forest but we also, for it to be a community park it has to be something that the residents of the city are going to want to come out and enjoy so there's going to have to be some attractant there other just trees. Not that trees are not important. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 28 '-' They're becoming increasingly more important every day and we wish that we could afford to have just natural areaS set aside just to be left as that but I think our need indicates that weare going to have to provide som~ form of recreational. opportunities in this area of the city. Howard Dahlgren: Yes, I think you're right in that all the ingredients ...However, it may be that a park like this perhaps in conjunction with some...it may be that your ~layfields are in another location. They may be contiguous to the school site. In Mendota Heights, they just bought riew parkland contiguous to the school site on purpose and they use the facilities together and it's working extremely well. Everyone is saving money.. .and it's a concept that has a lot of merit... But you are right. This site is not...but there's a lot of land out there yet on the west end of Chanhassen. Perhaps there's a site...that doesn't infringe on high value... Schroers: We have been looking in that area for quite some time and there is still some space available but whether or not and when it can be acquired is I guess s6mething that we don't know at this point. Are there any questions? Lash: I have a question. First I'd just like to make a comment on your presentation in that it's one of the best presentations I've seen. The visuals were excellent for me to see where the wetlands and the tree coverage are. I've never seen one this good so I thank you for that. I have a couple of questions about the development itself. What type of buildings are these? Are these similar to what we already have in our industrial park over here? Sort of a one story type building or are they more office building type things or what's it g'oing to look like? ...."", Michele Foster: As you may know, Opus Corporation has developed a number of mixed use business parks in the Twin Cities. Opus II in Minnetonka. Eagandale Center in Eagan. We're developing a new park in Plymouth called Bass Creek Business P~rk. We were involved in the development of Chanhassen Lake~ Business Park, although we were not the initial developer of that park. We consider this to be really an extension of that. Of all of that experience. But it is primarily going to be an office and industrial park. We envision most of the buildings being more low rise kinds of buildings. The office market is really not in a very healthy state and not likely to return to a healthy state for a long time. But we view it as a quality business park. I think we envision it as probably a step above the Chanhassen Lakes Business Park that we have been involved in. But it is going to be a mixture of building types and building materials but we consider the design standards in the covenants that are going to be implemented for the park are going to emphasize quality design. They're going to emphasize open space. Landscaping. It is our intent that we will be designing and building most of the buildings within the park and so we'will have the kind of architectural and design control that will help ensure that that level of quality is maintained throughout the history of the park. So that's basically what we envision at this point. ....", Lash: Okay, thank you. And then Mr. Dahlgren, you said you were talking, thinking of doing this in stages or phases. Do you have any " Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 29 idea over how many years? Howard Dahlgren: Well, it will probably take a total of 10 years to do the total project.. Generally we'd start it in.the south. We want to get this road up through here as quickly as we can... Depending on the timing of the utilities, how much of this would be... Lash: Okay. And then looking at how this is divided up into lots I guess, what would you say the average size is of just, they all look like they're somewhat close in size there. I'm not very good at judging that. Howard Dahlgren: Michele...I haven't done that. Have you done that Michele? Michele Foster: No I haven't...I'd say around 5 acres it looks like from just the listing of the separate parcels. It's probably around the average of 5 acres. Lash: Okay Todd, then I have a couple of questions for you too. On the east side of where this stand of oaks are, down in that southeast corner, you said that was zoned low density? ~ Hoffman: Residential? Lash: Yeah. Hoffman: Correct. Lash: And then just to the north of that is high density? And have you seen anything come across for any developments in that area at this time? Hoffman: Not to my knowledge at this point but again, if you refer to the aerial which you have you'll see, as Mr. Dahlgren has mentioned, the extreme difficulty which is going to be met when that area comes in for development. The entire, let's just look to the plan. You can see the fence line which is...and the wetland area which we are currently discussing. This wetland goes over the property line down into the O'Shaughnessy property. Lash: So okay. I mean you're reading into what I'm saying here which is fine, because that's just what ~'m saying. We wouldn't be able to just collect the park fees here and use the money to buy property on the east side of the wood~d area, because it wouldn't be developable? Hoffman: .'. .acqui re as part of future development this knoll to conti nue with the preservation of the open space but contiguous to this site, which identifies park property there would not be, in my opinion, ground which is suitable for an active park. " Schroers: And that is what you're, excuse me. That is what you have in your recommendation is that a parcel that will accommodate both. Active use and. Hoffman: Correct? Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 30 -' Lash: My thought here is pretty obvious of course was, could we just split it and have the park be on the residential side of this development with the oaks as the background to the west of it? Are you following me? But we couldn't do that? Hoffman: It doesn't work, no. Lash: Okay. Then how far is this from the slated school site that's on TH 5? Hoffman: It's relatively close. Again, if we refer back to the... The current property line .is that line right there. This is the O'Shaughnessy piece and then the school property. Lash: So it's right on the other side of...? Hoffman: Correct. Lash: Thank you. That's all my questions. Howard Dahlgren: . ..this is the O'Shaughnessy parcel...I'm not sure that that that knoll would be undevelopable for a ballfield. We did not investigate that... -"" Schroers: Okay, thank you. Any other questions? Erickson: I have a q~estion for that yet mapped out corner of that right at Highway 5 and 41. Right in the corner there, which is obviously a very prime site. What kind of things did you envision? How many acres is that empty space? Just roughly. Michele Foster: It's about, a little less than 30 acres... Erickson: What kind of, what range of things would you envision? I mean that seems like a very prime site. A Radisson hotel. Kentucky Fried Chicken or what? Howard Dahlgren: No Kentuckey .Fried Chicken. A Radisson hotel possibly. Maybe a use that we don't even know. Erickson: Fleet Farm has what corner? Hoffman: Directly to the 'north. Erickson: To the north of that. Howard Dahlgren: So we just don't know but we wanted to keep it accessible. Maybe it's i ndustr ial . Maybe by the time we get here ,', the office park is packed and we can put a first class office building here surrounded by industrial. What we're saying is what~ver it is, it's something that... ...., ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 -Page 31 Schroers: Are there any more questions or comments from Commission membe," s? Koubsky: Todd, could you outline on there where exactly, you mentioned Lots 17 and 18 in your recommendation there. Can you kind of show us on one of these maps how that fits in. These are kind of filled with half copies and stuff. Hoffman: Lots 17 and 18...two locations which they outlined as open space...all the areas that we've been talking about the open preservation areas. . . Koubsky~ Okay now, for something that's 178.3 acres, what's the dedication requirement for that as far as land? I""" Hoffman: Sure, potentially. Again, this 15.9 acres which is pointed out here has not been verified by the city. It does include the ponding area which is currently included in there and would bring that figure down somewhat. Comments based on the information you've heard this evening is that, I would agree that those areas set aside, the best uses for parkland but from the eye of a developer it's certainly the only use that, that land could be used for so keep that in mind. As well the impact. The idea that this land is very valuable in the sense of industrial ground. Again, I will not dispute that but if that is our premise, why do we have Lake Susan Park? Community Park. Why do we have the Lake Ann Park, which is some of the most desireable land that we hav~ on the Highway 5 corridor. We have those simply because of action which we discussed in our previous meeting. That somebody had the foresight and the thought to go ahead and acquire those properties. If it was the desire of the Commission simply to accept the park dedication in this regard and take the $350,000.00 and pocket it and spend it, 10 or 15 years from now we'r~ all going to forget what that money was spent for and we're going to have some open ground and ponding areas but we would not have a ballfield which c~nbe utilized by our community for the next, 6r in perpetuity if it's an open park property. Those are some of the things that, as Commissioners you need to mull over. It certainly is not to the advantage of the applicant to sell that property. The additional property, whether it be a 5, 10, 15 acres of additional land, back to the City prior to developing it as industrial park because they're going to get paid less money for it as park property as part of your requirement and your review of this site than if they develop it as industrial property and sold it at $1.50 a square foot for i nst.ance. We have not Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 32 -"" talked about it. It's unfortunate but as we go through and we talk about open space and industrial sites and how nice they are, it seems we never talk about the actual employees. The people who will be working here. I'm not sure what we have on site. Some 14 odd buildings with 200 to 300 to 1,000 employees per building. Those are the people we'Ye addressing this evening. It's not the industrial site. It's not the land use. Those type of things. It's the people that will be moving here who will have an interest, not only if they work here but those people who will choose to move to this community since they have jobs in this industrial site. So those are some of the issues that, as Commissioners we have to keep in mind as well as we move forward with the concept review of this proposal. Koubsky: It seems to me, I guess the point we're trying to get across in this development, addressing the developer, we do have a system at Lake. Ann that there's quite a bit of industry around that area. The industriea do utilize that property for recreation. Their own ballteams, picnicing and luncheons and what not. There are quite a few employees down at that end of town. We don't have something similar up at Lake, is it Lake Susan? Or Lake Ann? Hoffman: Lake Lucy to the north? Koubsky: Yeah, I'm thinking just right out here on CR 17. Anyway, what we're trying to incorporate here is, I'm not quite buying this wetland ~ park or passive park. We do appreciate passive parks. We have just actually moved on one. southeast of here but with this many people moving in, I think w~ need to provide some sort of recreation facility for them and their families coming in here. I think it would also improve the development and possibility sellability down the line for this if there's some area in this development a~d adjacent developments for people to recreate. For people to take lunches and practice with their ball teams. Softball teams. These guys are going to spOnsor softball teams. They're going to play somewhere. They're going to also have a demand on our current park system which is being stress~d now for ballfields and recreational facilities. I guess we're looking at this development potentially to help us out in that regard. To give back to the community a.little bit whi6~ I think they're going t~ expect when they do move out here to reside and work. So I guess my feeling is~ and I'm not in a position where.I can say which are of this development I like best. I do understand your sewer. Your utility requirements. However, I think we need something a little more active in this area. It is a park poor or park deficient area. Granted we are going to have a school but that may turn out to be an elementary school. And how we're going to utilize that land really isn't up on the table at this point. So I guess personally I'd like, now that you know the recommendations of the staff, kind of follow along that line. We do have an option to ask for 17.8 acres and not accept any of the wetland as those acreages. It looks like we're possibly looking at 25 to 50 acres. We may be willing to purchase some properties. I'd kind of like to throw it back and have you digest these recommendations ~nd thoughts and maybe let you strategise on how that would fit your development and come back. That's how I feel. I'm not ~ willing to accept this proposal. But I'd like to work with you. "..., Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 33 schroers: I think that that is pretty much getting to be the general conception of the commission here. It would be nice if we could just put away, put aside natural area and say this is nice. This is beautiful but the people who currently live here. The people who are coming here. The people who are going to be your clients and customers who are going to be working in your development are going to ask for something I think more than just woods and lowland. In our other community parks, two of our premiere community parks we have lakes, a beautiful beach, boat landings, that sort of thing and I think that we would be definitely lacking to accept an area like this as a community park and basically what we're offering, what we have to offer as a park here is forested area and lowLands, which are nice natural amenities but offer very little active recreation use to the people in the area. Howard Dahlgren: Mr. Chairman? Schroers: Yes sir. Howard Dahlgren: Could I just comment on two points? Schrpers: Sure. JI""" Howard Dahlgren: First of all, in terms of the calculations...that if you disallow wetlands for park dedication, you also take the wetland out of the total acreage because the intent is to provide park area to serve the developable area. Whether it's residential or industrial. You cannot develop. a wetland... That's why these calculations, we've taken out the 22 acres... You see it's kind of unfair to have us dedicate 10% of wetlands when we can't use them. Then if you don't count wetlands... Koubsky: Well that was an oversight on my part. I mean I'm certainly not here to. Howard Dahlgren: The other point is that not every developable park... necessarily provides active recreational space. I understand that Ryan...here in Chanhassen has no parks at all... If you want the money here, we can give you the money too. Schroers: See what it would have to do is fit into our overall comprehensive plan for the city park system and we have that laid out and it is defined where we need parks and whether they need to be active or passive or a combination of both and we are following a format here and trying to stay and remain consistent. If we accepted an area that was basically unuseable and we're not able to offer recreational activities in the area, the people who are living and working in the area I'm sure would find that an unacceptable. They would be standing here in front of us asking us to explain OUY actions why we did that. That has happened before. ~ Lash: The Ryan development was in an area that was not park deficient. This area is park deficient so that's the difference between these two developments. Howard Dahlgren: Maybe we're the first in the area to develop... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 34 -'" schroers: To put things a little bit into perspective, how many acres Todd do we have at Lake Susan? Just to give us a general idea of what kind of space we're talking about. Hoffman: Total acreage, including the fringe woodland areas, the pond and then the active components is approximately 35 acres. Schroers: 35 acres at Lake Susan. Lash: Okay and my question is, to provide the active part that you have in your recommendation, what would we be looking for just to provide the active area? Hoffman: Again, as I've commented in my narrative there, it depends on how it lays out with buffer areas and that type of thing and topography but better than 10 acres in addition to the 30 acres which is there is probably a starting point. Schroers: I hope that Mr. Dahlgren and the other representatives of the developer here understand our position. A lot of the information that you're providing us is what you're going to have to sell to the City Council. We deal only with the park and recreation issue and that is the point that we have to look at. Our goal is to best serve the park and recreation needs of the city of Chanhassenand that's the criteria that we're going to follow. So'whatever our recommendation is, it is certai~ly not to create difficulty but is remain consistent with our -' program and to try to develop the best park system for the City that we can as you are trying to develop the best industrial park that you can. Is there any further discussion? Erickson: I have a question Todd. And I think I know the answer but I want to hear it. Can you say with any kind of certainty what we can do with the new school site? Assuming that it would be elementary. Can you make any predictions? Any educated guesses as to what we'll have available there to make an active park? Hoffman: I can say with certainty that something will happen. Wh~t that incorporates as far as outdoor recreational activities. ballfields, soccer fields, football, soccer, is unclear at this point. It really depends on the design of the school and how much of the site it does consume. And then as far as indoor recreation, we need an'additional gymnasiums. Those types of things. In conversations with the School District and the long range facilities task force: we certainly all agree that the city ofChanhassen is in a ~osition of being able to assist in the funding of those type of components. 50 something will be there. It will be more than you would typically see at an elementary school site. But it might not be very dissimilar to what you find at City Center Park. Lash: But we're talking youth facilities, more than an adult ballfield. Softball field. Hoffman: Correct. ...."" ,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 35 Lash: I mean my suggestion would be~ I can tell the direction that we're going here and I'm certainly in favor of preserving the oak stand and the wetland and stuff but it would make a nice area for trails and that kind of stuff if we can acquire enough acreage abutting that to facilitate our active fields and then your wetlands the trees behind it would be sort of your backstop to the whole thing. You know it probably could turn out to be something very nice and would not require ~5' acres of prime property right in the middle of your whole development but could be all incorporated together. That's just a suggestion if you guys go back to your drawing board of trying to figure out how to put it all together. I mean I would certainly want to see it incorporated somehow to preserve the oak area there. ,-. Hoffman: Just to back up a few comments again which came up which I jotted down. In reference to the Ryan site, which you reviewed. The City did acquire slightly less than 10 acres of open space or park property as a part of that development. That's in additlon to the park and recreation trail fees and park fees. If you recall, that is the site which is part of the Bluff Creek preservation zone. The purchase of that property is being coordinated through tax increment financing dollars. As TIF was used in that scenario,tax increment financing is the enticement for this development to occur. Without that financing package, the folks here this evening and the Gateway Partnership would not be before you. So the City certainly has more resources in addition ,to park and trail fees in the 10% calculation. If you would wish to purchase an additional 10 or 15 acres up and beyond what we can receive through the dedication process, tax increment financing money will be there to purchase it. But if you're in the applicant's shoes and you have a parcel of land sitting out here and you could make even money or slightly better selling it to the city, or you can double your money selling it to a perspective buyer, again which one would you choose. That is what I see is the stumbling block that we face here tonight~ Lash: What Ryan development are we talking about? I don't think I'm talking about the same one as you are. Koubsky: It's the one off Audubon. Hoffman: Chan Business Center. The triangular piece. Lash: Oh, okay. Okay. I thought you were talking about Target. That's Ryan too isn't it? Hoffman: Correct. This one is just off Audubon. Koubsky: South of Timberwood. Hoffman: Kind of this area. The piece of property we just acquired is right in this location. ,... Schroers: Okay. Well we are not going to accomplish anything unless we do make a recommendation and pass it onto Council and you know we're at a very preliminary stage here. At this point,if there's no further discussion, I would ask if anyone is ready to entertain a recommendation Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 36 --' on this and I guess my oplnlon would be consistent with that of staff in regards to their recommendation. Lash: Are you moving that? Schroers: No, I'm asking if anyone else will. If no one else wants to, I will. Erickson: 50 you want the trails separate from the... Schroers: Yes. There needs to be a separate recommendation for the park and trails. Lash: Now this is going to City Councilor are we going to make a recommendation that the applicant comes back with a different, what are we looking for? schroers: Yeah, I think we're going to ask to see a concept of what we are recommending. 50, does anyone want to make a recommendatio~? If not, I will. I recommend that the Park and Rec Commission request the applicant to provide as a part of their proposal a community park site. The site is to include sufficient land of suitable character and topography to include natural vistas affording sufficient area for viewing and picnicking. A designated 8 foot wide bituminous trail loop with multiple access points connecting the wooded and upland portions of the site with picnicking and viewing areas and the street plan and --' sidewalks, sufficient area for the possible construction of two ballfields with 300 foot fences, a ba~ketball court, a double tennis court, a sufficient upland areas to buffer these amenities. This will require the designation of considerable more park property than called out on the sketch plan. Hqwever, it is desireable for all parkland components to be contiguous. This park shall also maintain considerable road frontage to afford visible impact as well as allowing for sufficient ingress and egress and we would like to see a concept plan of this recommendation. Is there a second? Berg: Second. schroers moved, Berg seconded to recommend that the Park and Recreation Commission request the applicant to provide as a part of their proposal a community park site. The site is to include sufficient land of suitable character and topography, to include natural vistas affording sufficient area for viewing and picnicking, a designated 8 foot wide bituminous trail loop with multiple access points connecting the wooded and upland portions of the site with picnicking and viewing areas and the street plan and sidewalks, sufficient area for the possible construction of two ballfields with 300 foot fences, a basketball court, a double tennis court, a sufficient upland areas to buffer these amenities. This will require the designation of considerable more park property than called out on the sketch plan. However, it is desireable for all parkland components to be contiguous. This park shall also maintain considerable. road frontage to afford visible impact as well as allowing for sufficient ingress and egress and we would like to see a concept plan of this recommendation. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ..."", ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 37 Schroers: Okay. And we also need a motion recommending the trail dedication. Koubsky: Do we want to spell out, we do say it's going to require more park property. Todd, do we want to indicate how much property we might be interested in? Or the city interested in or how much property we think we'll need to put the community park site in here that we're thinking about? Hoffman: Rather than pinpointing a specific acreage, if you concur with the staff's recommendation of addressing the type of facilities which we would think to be desireable in this location. To allow the applicant time to go back and take a look at the site. The contours which are there. The barriers to this tYPe of development. It may be that you pick out Lot 14 or 13 or one of those lots which is adjacent to this and it woYks out very nicely. That may not be the case and you might have to go back and redesign it. So instead of stating acreage, I would state the type of facilities you would like to see and then put them back to the drawing board. Schroers: Which is what we just did. Okay, so now can I ask for a recommendation on the trail portion. "..... Lash: Now do we need to adjust that now from your original recommendation given the timeline of TH 41? Hoffman: I would recommend you do so and at this point, the two trails which are identified as part of the proposal, I would simply make the recommendation that as this development does progress, that it does align itself with the Comprehensive Trail Plan. Or follow it as it is identified. However, somewhere in there I would make the recommendation that the trail, the eventual trail along State Highway 41 does exist on the east side since it will be the higher density use of the two sides of the road. The Arboretum being a low volume type of use on the opposite side of TH 41. Lash: So you're just looking for us to take easements now and pace this according with development schedules of TH 41? Hoffman: I couldn't comment on whether or not easements were necessary, but you may want to elude to that if easements are necessary. What you would want to say is just insure that the ~pplicant does plan for that piece of trail. If in the development of the plan for the flattening out of State Highway 41 there is not sufficient area in the right-of-way to accompany that, to allow for that trail construcition, then it comes off into the private property and through our dedication of additional land~ or trail easements. That that be accomplished. Lash: And do we want to leave some kind of a loophole so that if MnDot, for some reason puts this improvement. ,..... Hoffman: 10 years off. Lash: Yeah, that we want to deal with it ahead of time. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 38 """'" Hoffman: Certainly. Lash: Okay. Who wants to put that together? Erickson: Where's Jim when you need him? . Lash: Okay, I might. Todd, do you want to try something? Hoffman: No. Lash: No, I mean just a way of kind of trying to put it together. Koubsky: I'll give it a whirl. I'll move that the applicant incorporate into their proposal the plan for the construction of an 8 foot wide bituminous trail along the east side of Highway 41 beginning at State Highway 5 which 'extends south to 82nd Street; The construction will be completed by the applicant in accordance with the City standards and specifidations in regard to trails. With regard to the MnDot, Highway 41 road construction sche~ule, we will allow for delay in the installation of the trail system. However, we reserve the right to move forward with that construction if MnDot appears to be delayed for what we consider an excessive period of time. Schroers: Very good. Is there a second to that? I will second it. Koubsky moved, Schroers seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the applicant incorporate into their proposal the plan for the construction of an 8 foot wide bituminous trail along the east side of Highway 41 beginning at State Highway 5, which extends south to 82nd Street. The construction will be completed by the applicant in accordance with the City standards and specifications in regard to trails. With regard to the MnDot State Highway 41 ~oadconstruction schedule, we will allow for delay in the'installation of the trail system. However, we reserve the right to move forward with that construction if MnDot appears to be delayed for what we consider an excessive period of time. All voted in favor and the motion carried. -' schroers: Alright, the recommendation has been approved. Both of them and it will go to Council. Thank you very much for your time here this evening. I hope that there's going to be a successful way of working this out. CONTINUATION OF DISCUSSION ON PARK AND RECREATION NEEDS ASSESSMENT AND OPINION SURVEY. Schroers: We touched on that quite a bit actually in our joint meeting with the Council earlier and unless someone has something real relevant to add on this subject, I would like to move right through as quickly as possible. ' Erickson: Larry, I guess the only thing I want to say is, I think you've done aJ Todd and Jerry and Dawn have .done a real good job of compiling all the data for us. Very readable and I think they did a commendable job. Thank you. That was a lot of work I know. ......-II ,...., Pa.k and Rec Commission Meeting Septembe. 22, 1992 - Page 39 Be.g: The only thing I'd ask in .egards to this and it's vaguely .elated to the su.vey is I'd like to get some more information and maybe talk with some people on the HRA. That became very appa.ent to me that I don't know anything about what those people are about. That might help us in te.ms of what we're talking about he.e in the needs assessment. Is that possible? Hoffman: Absolutely. Schroers: I think that that was a real strong signal that came through in the joint meeting is that we need to become more familiar with the HRA and. find out what opportunities may be available there. Koubsky: I think also what this survey told me is we had a feeling of how this would, the results may come out based on our experience with the park system...specifically demographics, age of kids. I guess when you look at the ages, you look at how things we.e voted for. Ideas expressed. There are some things that aren't surp.ising. We may have to educate the citizens of Chanhassen or inform them of current status of some of our facilities and why we're conce.ned. Schroers: I think that's a good point. Okay. It's been an extra long night fo. most of us so let's just t.y to get through this as quickly as ~ we can. If there is nothing more, let's move on to item 4. TREE PRESERVATION BOARD. Hoffman: Tree p.eservation Board, we do have item 4. Lash: ...who the applicants a.e, just out of cu.iousity. Hoffman: I have those upstai.s. They .ange from folks who are in the t.ee to just eve.yday citizens so I can include that in an upcoming packet. Lash: Some other time? ,.... Hoffman: Yeah, next packet. Briefly jumping back to the last item. Thanks ChairmanE.ickson fo. the words of thanks there. Dawn did all the input and inputting 1,054 pieces is a big job. City Manager Ashworth developed the system to input that information. You will see this again when we bring back all the comments so you'll get to read page after page of comments. In add.essing Commissione. Berg~s request. We can have a similar meeting with the HRA. As City Manage. Ashworth briefly mentioned, I w.ote a pape. on tax increment financing for my information to gain more information about it fo. ~ class at Hamline. He seems to think it's ve.y good and has distributed it to all City Council candidates for their info.mation. I'll include that in an upcoming administ.ative packet as well. That will give you a preview of tax increment financing and then we'll go from there. You probably were su.prised that the HRA is talking about doing some type of development in the downtown area with Filly's, behind Bloomberg's and that type of area. You'.e not su.prised if you see what it looks like but they're talking abbut a convention center and including recreational components, that Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 40 ....,I type of thing so. Keep you up to date on that as well. In regard to item 4, the Tree Preservation Board. Simply what we need to do this evening is to appoint a member of the Park and Recreation Commission to that board. That member, along with a member of the Planning Commission and the City Council will form the base of the committee. They will interview the 7 candidates and choose 4 of those candidates to begiri the life of that 7 member board. So with that, I would accept nominations from the floor. schroers: With that I would ask if there was a volunteer. How much is involved in this Todd? Hoffman: How much is involved in it? Schroers: Are you talking about a couple of nights of interviews? Hoffman: Interviews should be done in one night and then after that, the meetings will be monthly for the first part of it but then after that probably bi-monthly or quarterly. Schroers: But the person that you're asking for from this, are you asking a Park and Rec Commissioner to become a member of the Board or just to be on the interview process? Hoffman: Correct. To be a member of the Board. .....", Er ickson: I'm interested in it. I presently" I interviewed on Monday for a job in St. Louis. If I get that job in St. Louis I would be leaving. If I don't get that job, I'll be staying. Koubsky: It would be a heck of a commute for our meetings. Erickson: It would be a long drive. I guess I would go ahead and be happy to take that positio;" if there's a very strong alternate should I leave. Someonewh6 knc there's maybe a 50/50 chance that I'll be moving. Not passing on. noving on. Or if you don't want to mess with ihat, you ~now I k _~ere's lot of people here that are certainly. Schroers: When is this ning? How soon is this going on? Hoffman: This will be o. Planning Commission agenc mid-October. _~~ next City Council agenda and the next I would think that interviews would happen Erickson: I'd know by'm .>.:tober. Lash: Go for it Randy. Erickson: I'll voluntee- ,OT It... I'd like to thank the Com~ission members for their SUppOT_. No, I'll be more than happy to do that with the understanding that I ~Lght tap on down the road... ...."", ,.... I""'"' ,..... Park and Rec Commission e~ing September 22, 1992 - Page Lash moved, Schroers secc ,~0d to appoint Randy Erickson as the Park and Recreation Commission's r,,;...resentative on the Tree Preservation Board_ All voted in favor and t~ ~otion carried. Lash: Now we get to hea~ ~;0at Jim has to say about the Highway 5 Commission. Schroers: Do you just wa~~ to move through these items Todd and give us what information that's rtinent on this rather than. Hoffman: Sure can. If I ;,eed information from the Commission, I'll ask for it. HIGHWAY 5 CORRIDOR STUDY. Hoffman: Item 5, Highway ~ Corridor Study is an informational item. Again, big things which c,'e happening here in the community which it is not surprising if we don'_ nave a whole ton of time to talk about it. You only get 15 residents the~e to talk about the vision of having a highway system beginning in downtj~n. Not only beginning in downtown but the Eden Prairie border, thel~ extending out to TH 41, which is just not a swath of concrete which l'i..id incorporate parkways, they call them frontage roads. We'd like to call them parkways in Chanhassen. So if you want to leave the dow~~awn and go out to your house in western Chanhassen, you don't have to hop on Highway 5. Fight the interchanges, etc. and the Waconia and \~ ,-l-llood-Young Amer ica traffic. You can get on the parkway and drive home. As part of that, Jim AndYews, Commissioner Andrews is the representa~ive from the Commission. He has requested that he get somesu~port from ~ne Commission members essentially in regards to a few areas. At grade cT0~3ings. Commissioner Koubsky has talked about this. Those big, long at grade crossings are pretty scarey when you have to cross from Lake Susan ~lls West to get to Lake Ann. There are plans being made for at least 0:,0 under the road crossing. The two locations currently identified are R~ley Creek and Bluff Creek. Riley Creek being at the entrance of Lake (:.. '",. Bluff Creek being out at the front door of the new elementary school ~ite. The commission needs to identify, if you don't identify which one you'd like to~ the Planning Commission and the HRA will and MnDot will a~G it will go. Commissioner Andrews recognizes that so he'd like to disCGSS that type of information which is important to the Park Commission anc get some recommendations and form some thoughts. Not only in regards to crossings but trails along the parkway and along Highway 5 and ho~ that effects Lake Ann Park. It will consume a portion of Lake Ann ParK. The house at the entrance to Lake Ann will be purchased as a part of Gnat. The tennis court will dissolve. The entrance into the park will be realigned and much improved. It will come across from Park Drive in3~3ad of in it's current location. So there's a lot of things that this s~udy are going to effect in regards to parks and Jim just wanted to make SOiS you were up to date. Berg: I hate to reveal my ignorance but what is a below grade crossing? Hoffman: Below the surface. Erickson: A tunnel. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 42 ...."" Lash: Is that much cheaper than a bridge, or whatever you call them? Hoffman: An overpass. Stidge. Yeah. Much cheaper.. Much more sightly to have an overpass and you're looking at this thing. We're not talking about a tunnel. Originally they were talking about a bridge. If you look on here, they had a very nice picture of a bridge system in St. Paul but that's about a million dollars a crack. So if you have double whammies, you've got two <<,illion dollars in bridges. Now what they're .talking about is a glorif.ed culvert, which is a great big triangular culvert which then they would put a facade on the sid~ of the road so it looks like a bridge. So you have a big h~ge culvert. You walk through that portion. You come 00~ into the open, inbetween two highway systems and you walk under the n~x~ one to get across. Lash: Are you talking about, is it like at allover by Jonathan Elementary? You know when yoU go under Jonathan Boulevard that's a culvert type thing. Hoffman: That would be a ~dnnel. This is would be more open and pleasing both. to the eye snd to the feeling as you cross under. Eden Prairie put a tunnel in. h great big concrete. If you drive east and just when you come down in~o Mitchell Lake, they've got a tunnel crossing underneath there so if you're interested in getting, go up and park on the frontage road. Hop OU~. Walk on the trail and go down and see the tunnel underneath Highway ~ that they've incorporated. --' Lash: So could we identify both of those as crossing spots? Hoffman: Certainly could but probably not a very likely chance that that would occur. Schroers: But what's goh,:,;) to have to happen is that Jim is goi ng" to have to identify you know:o address that specifically on an agenda item and we'll make a motion 0; it. Something that will not happen tonight. GATE ATTENDANT PROGRAM REPORT. Hoffman: Sure, okay. Jus~ informational. Item number 6, have you distributed? Jerry will quickly distribute the Gate Attendent Program report. What I can tell you i~ that essentially there might be some jumbling of the figures between where the money was, revenue came from but the bottom dollars that the gate attendant program, made the same revenues that it did last year and...Jerry, if you just want to simply touch on your report. Ruegemer: Okay. Todd did touch on the numbers were surprisingly in close proximity from last year. This report is used by our d~partment just to track these annual sales from the annual park stickers and parking for picnics and money generated from softball parking passes and also including South Lotus boat access, we can somewhat track the water traffic...as they enter the boat access while our attendants are on duty. If you just look, the first page is basically a little bit of discussion or evaluation or look back from the report itself. What items were touched on. Where our money was generated from. And also. if you take a ...,;' ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 43 ,..... look at the second page, those are just totals from our gate house and they were very close in numbers from last year. Even though it was a cold, rainy summer, I believe we could have done a lot more had it been nice. There are totals from 1992. What type of watercraft did come through the boat access. Our total number and comparison from 1991. Watercraft total. Looking down at the daily passes there, it is broken down between daily passes. seasonal passes, resident and then seasonal passes, non-resident. Those figures are broken down and then the amounts are tallied up to get a sub-total of $12,029.00. with the addition then of softball registration, parking passes, we do have that total times the $75.00 per team. We do co~e up with then $5,475.00 and then with the addition of Lake Ann picnic parking passes that were invoiced to those companies having picnics, we did come up with another $802.00 for a grand total then of $18,306.00. Taking into account then we will subtract then gate attendants total wages earned during the summer, administration time, printing costs of these passes which is subtracted then from the grand total. We just briefly touched on, if YOU look on the back page we have our gate attendants listed total hours worked times their hourly salaries, you get a grand total of how much is used for expenditures in the hourly wages of our gate attendants. This report really is to kind of guide our department yea, to year and track our revenues and expenditures regarding Lake Ann. Picnic and parking passes and revenues generated from those. Just so we can track our...future and past totals from these and we can use the information in assisting U$ in our development of our budget and planning for the revenues collected in future years. ...does anybody have any questions regarding the money generated or expenditures of any kind? Schroers: It looks like 2 very concise report. Good job. Koubsky: How much, you mentioned some expenses. costs and all that. Any idea how much that is? about $10,000.00. Sticker cost. Printing It looks like we made Ruegemer: It would not be that much. Just the printing of those passes are roughly around $800.00. PROGRAM REPORTS: SUMMER DISCOVERY PLAYGROUND EVALUATION. Hoffman: Dawn Lemme did prepare a very concise report on the 1992 summer discovery playground evaluation. It's very helpful to provide information on what's going on on such things as, did you know that fossil making is not age appropriate for this group? That type of information stands out. Dawn, if you have any brief comments in regard to that program. We have concerns over numbers. Commissioner Andrews is not here to discuss North' Lotus, but as you can see from t'he numbers there, 7 folks came out for the program in a neighborhood which is significantly larger than that you would think so...whether or not we ,..... should discontinue North Lotus and hear the rash of phone calls. Lash: All seven. Park and Rac Commission Meeting september 22, 1992 - Page 44 ...."I Hoffman: No, more people will call then because it's not there. We forgot to sign up last year, you didn't know that. Lemme: I really don't have any. I thin~ it's pretty explanatory on there. The reason for having all the list of activities is so that ne~t year we know what we did and what worked. So it's also... We had a really good summer. We didn't have any knock down...we didn't have any accidents. We didn't have to call a paramedic. We didn't have any problems. We had good attendance even though we slipped from Chaskaon our trips. We had a really good summer. The staff was excellent. They were organized. They had ~ good time and the evaluations that came back, even though there weren't a lot, were overall good to excellent. Berg: We had some really lousy weather on Mondays. Lemme: It was always cold. The staff was wearing jackets... It got sunny I think the week after the playground. Berg: How seriously are you thinking of going two days? Lemme: Very seriously. Lash: It used to be two days, didn't it? Hoffman: A couple of locations. ....,;' Lash: How come we have it at Lion's Park in Victoria? Just out of curiousity. Hoffman: That goes back to a carryover from when this program was offered through the School District. So when District #112 operated it, they offered it in East Union, Victoria, Chanhassen, Chaska. Minnetonka offered it in Chanhassen, etc, etc, etc. We pick it up as a contractual service. If we wish to continue that, we certainly can. Lash: I was just curious. And I just wanted to, Dawn mentioned too on the Science Museum. The Omni Theatre thing. You had kind of a p60r turnout. You know a lot of kids go to that for school so it's probably not like a real big deal in the summer to go. And once you've seen the movie. Lemme: Well it's the same with the Minne~ota Zoo. OKTOBERFEST. Hoffm~n: In regards to Oktoberfest. I~'s this Friday. We hope to see you there. We did not, we don't have to do anything so we didn't request that you folks were. All the service organizations are operating it. The Department does coordinate the entire event and the publicity and we added a new attraction being a petting zoo and pony rides which we think will be highly successful. The seniors are also getting involved in this and doing the sales of crafts and vegetable items. We have essentially every service organization in the city operating. The Lion's, the ...."I ,...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 45 Rotary, the Jaycees and Snowmobile Club. And the Seniors and the Chamber. Lash: It sounds like the weather's going to cooperate. Hoffman: We hope so. Hot Air balloon's back, so hopefully we'll have quiet winds so that can come up as well. Any Commission member presentations? COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS: Lash: Is there anything new with the, we didn't even talk about it when we were over there. The shelter. Do they have a completion date in mind? Hoffman: Yes. We didn't get a chance to address it but the completion date is past. August 28th. We'll be at September 28th very readily here and once a contractor gets past a completion date, it seems like they should speed things up but that has not been the case. Either in the utilities project or the shelter project. Out of conversation with the representative of ALM, ou, contract is with and in regard to are you concerned as I am over freeze up. I mean you have to do caulking and concrete work and mason,y and painting and freezing tempe~atures are Just ~ around the corner. He stated yes he was and he's trying to keep on the subcontractors to get this project done. But don't hold your breath. The snow's going to fly and things aren't going to be done out there. And I've made every attempt, as you've followed in the letters which I have... It's all been firm in the contract here. These are not empty threats in that they, have $200.00 liquidated damages per day. So you're up to 30 days and that's goign to be $6,000.00 which in their last payment request when they come in here and tell you, sorry but you're liquidated damages are $8,000.00. In conversation with the City Attorney, it's going to be very difficult to stick to those guns. Liquidated damages are a nice thing to put in there but unless you can prove that the city did maintain damage because of the hon-completion date, in this type of facility that's very difficult. They're probably going to hire ah attorney for $8,000.00 and argue that and probably win. If the amount is less than that, they may not choose to do that. So I cannot predict what the liquidated damages is going to amount to. Koubsky: Did they post a bid bond or performance bond? Hoffman: Yes. Koubsky: So the City has the ability to recoup if they decide to get rid of that contractor. Hoffman: Correct. But it's. Koubsky: Finish the project, yes. ~ ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS. Hoffman: In regards to administrative presentations, I'd like to bring Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 22, 1992 - Page 46 ...." you up to date on the current status of Dawn Lemme's position as Program Specialist. If you haven't known, recently Judy Colby h~s left the employment under contract of the City as Senior Center Coordinator for the Senior Center. Dawn is in. the interim assuming that role as Senior Center Coordinator working approximately 20 office hours in the senior center. The position of Program Specialist with those duties as Senior Center Coordinator will be included in the 1993 budget request. Preliminary feelings are that that position will be approved. However, until we actually get through the budget process, that is not 100%. Schroers: Is that congratulations? Hoffman: It's just a, we had two options, at that crossroads. Either take advantage of the good job and the excellent performance which Dawn has given the City and i ncorpor ate her posi ti\on, which in her past experience did include senior center coordination. Coordinating senior activities and put her into that role in an interim basis and hopefully fund that position or we could spend the $12,000.00 td $18,000.00 to $20,000.00 on a contract employee through a service organization that deals with seniors and senior centers. As part of that position, we do receive about approximately $15,000.00 in block grant money which will pay a major portion of that position's salary so. We're hopeful, but again I went through that stage. It's a very nerve racking stage in your employment. Jerry went th,-ough the same thi ng. Many other part tim.e employees do. So there's no, as we have di~cussed time and time again with Dawn, there are no sure things. ~ Schroers: Instead of congratulations we'll say, good luck. Anyone else have anything of interest in the administrative packet? Were you finished Todd? Hoffman: Yes. Schroers: Anything else? Koubsky moved, pemrick seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Coordinator Prepared by Nann Opheim ....."