PRC 1991 02 26
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CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
FEBRUARY 26, 1991
Chairman Schroers called the meeting to order at 7:31 p.m..
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Dave Koubsky, Larry Schroers, Curt Robinson,
Dawne Erhart and Jim Andrews
MEMBERS ABSENT: Wendy Pemrick
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Coordinator and Jerry
Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Andrews moved, Robinson seconded to approve the
Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated January 22,
1991 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
CITY CENTER PARK MASTER PLAN.
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Hoffman: As indicated in my brief cover memo, this master plan was
undertaken, it was identified to be undertaken for the past 2 years at
least. Because of the cloud of the community center issue surrounding this
site, the master plan was never undertaken, nor were any of the park
improvements that were budgeted for in the past 2 years undertaken either.
But now with the cloud of the community center cleared up, we can go ahead
and take a look at a master plan. Look at some future, potential future
-changes. Reconfigurations for this park site since it is going to be the
location which the T-ball, ragball and pee wee age kids continue to play
for many years to come here in Chanhassen and obviously that age group of
kids has increased and will continue to increase into the future. With
that, if you have any specific questions prior to Bruce Chamberlain who is
here from Van Doren-Hazard-Stallings making a presentation concerning these
proposed master plans. We'll let Bruce take the floor. Specific
questions? Okay.
AI""
Bruce Chamberlain: Thank you Todd. What we've done is come up with two
different concept alternatives for City Center Park. Both of them take
into consideration the things that were brought up at last month's meeting
as far as new park amenities and also things that I talked to Todd about,
both prior to that meeting and after the meeting. Things like the school
wished for a basketball court on the south side of the school and
additional softball fields. Additional soccer fields and the moving of the
running track and also there's a concern brought up about the hockey rinks.
Configuration because it's difficult for the players on one rink, it's
necessary for them to cross over the other rink to access that rink. So on
one of our concept alternatives we took that into consideration and came up
with an alternative. I just want to go over a little bit initially what's
in the park at this point. The elementary school is right here. Four
tennis courts in this area. The running track in this area right here.
There are three ballfields currently in the park. One in that location,
there and there. There's a path with a crossing at this point on Kerber
Drive. The path is a community path for children to go to the school and
also there's an easement and right-of-way for a path extending into this
community, cul-de-sac in this area right here. Parking area right here.
Along side the school and also another parking area dn the south side of
the school. The hockey rinks are in this location. The fire station.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 2
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City Hall and the associated parking lots for City Hall. What we wanted to
do was try and focus on the recreation amenities in the park and try to
centralize the access for those amenities. I'll show you a concept form.
You can see that we decided to centralize and bririg in an extra access for
park users along Kerber Drive on the west side of the elementary school.
What that does is it allows everyone who is driving to this site to use the
park amenities. Have a central location where they know they come to park
and then deseminate from there. There's corridor access to all the
ballfields from this central parking area right here. Either between the
ballfields to get to either of these two or central location for these
three ballfields right here. There's a concern in the community for some
additional soccer fields also and through, we got some information from
Todd. Who's the soccer?
Hoffman: Soccer association.
Bruce Chamberlain: Soccer Association on field sizes so we took that into
consideration also. There's four soccer fields in this scheme. Two
smaller and two larger. One of the soccer fields is uninterrupted by the
softball and baseball diamonds. That was a concern there so we tried to
take that into consideration and we were able to do that. Three of the
fields are overlapping softball diamonds. We tried to keep them out of the
infields and the ag lime areas as much as we could but that was not
possible all the way around. But we did keep them off of the pitchers
mound in all cases. There's also a concern for additional tennis and we
added, in this scheme, two tennis courts. Both to the west of the existing
four tennis courts. You can see those in this location right here. As ~
part of this scheme, we tried to make the crossing for the school path a
little bit more safe than it possibly is now and also centralize the
location of any intersections along Kerber Drive. Both for the parking
area and also for an existing street. So we brought the entrance to this
parking area, this on the other side of Kerber Drive, parallel and in
conjunction with this drive. And also moved the crossing, the crosswalk
over to that area so that it's a safe crossing for the children and anyone
else who uses that path. Then we bring the path around the park facilities
and up to the existing pathway and into the school. There's an existing
play area right here. There's also an existing play area right here but
that will be upgraded and changed somewhat I understand and we wanted to
take that into consideration so that new play facility is conceptually
shown in this area.
Schroers: Are we expanding that play area? Is that going to be larger?
Hoffman: Than the area currently? The area currently encompassed by the
play area will not need to expand to accommodate this new structure, no.
Bruce Chamberlain: Also the school's concern about a basketball court be
located as close as actually we located it exactly where they wanted it.
That's where they wanted it is on that side of the school and near the
parking lot so that was the location for that. In this scheme we left the
hockey rinks as they are and the warming house as it is. The running track
which is I believe 220 yard running track surrounds the soccer field in
this location. That's also uninterrupted so there wouldn't be any other
crossing over that.
~
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 3
Robinson: Can you tell me the width of that area between those 3 fields?
Bruce Chamberlain: This area?
Robinson: Yeah. About how many feet is that?
Bruce Chamberlain: Approximately 50 feet. So there'd be a 50 foot
aisleway between the fields.
Robinson: I was thinking about spectators, both for the ball diamonds and
that big soccer field. Now will they be able to stand on the running track
or behind the running track or where will the spectators be?
Bruce Chamberlain: If there's a need for spectators, even bleachers in the
softball areas, they could easily be accommodated in this area.
Robinson: I see.
Bruce Chamberlain: As far as the running track, there's plenty of space
from the stand-off for the soccer field, excuse me. Stand on the running
track or behind the running track. Around all the soccer fields there's a
10 foot buffer zone that is between the actual soccer field and the running
track in this case. They could stand anywhere on the running track and be
a safe distance from the play area.
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Schroers: Does that softball fields have to overlap in the outfields?
Bruce Chamberlain: On the soccer?
Schroers: No, on the ballfields.
Bruce Chamberlain: No. It was just because of the way the print was done.
And you can see the actual lines on these ball diamonds that are about 5
feet wide. The ones we get in there really do some fine detailing. We'll
be able to pull either this field back 5 feet, 10 feet or this one to the
west a little bit.
Lash: Larry, this is for T-ball and ragball and pee wee. I mean I haven't
seen the ball go out of the infield yet of course I have a few years left
to watch.
Schroers: Well another question I had was, will these fields be available
for some form of league playas far as softball? It says softball fields.
I'm wondering if the women's league or industrial league or anyone would be
able to play on these fields?
Hoffman: Currently they use a portion of these three fields for some
practice games and these would be made available in late April for practice
or you'd scheduled them so you wouldn't be hitting into each other you know
from a safety standpoint. And again with the 3 new fields at Lake Ann
bringing those to 6, at some point in the future we anticipate allowing
those to be used for practice really on in the season once they're
established to a proper degree.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 4
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Schroers: And you don't think that we'll have an additional need for
fields for league play? That Lake Ann will accommodate what we have now?
Hoffman: Certainly not in the near future, no. These fields here will be
full with the youth activities'in that 5 to 10 age group category. What I
see happening in the next 3 to 7 years is that City Center Park will be
maintained for that age group. Bandimere Park will at some point be
developed for the 10 to 14 to 16 year age group and then Lake Ann Park will
be left for the adults. So three athletic complexes will be used in those
respective age groups.
Lash: Do we have enough money Todd to do, at the last meeting we talked
about the play structure, the tennis courts, roofing the warming house and
trying to do something to the hockey rinks and it looked like all the money
would be eaten up just doing that. How are we going to do all this with
the ball fields?
Hoffman: That's correct. The money, the $68,000.00 included an allocation
for a master plan. The reason a master plan is being developed is to
insure that that $68,000.00 investment is used wisely and not, you will not
be, we'll spend that money on something which will not meet the future
needs of the future reconfigurations of this park. So this portion of the
capital improvements for this year is just to show the future possibilities
for this park and then to allow the commission to decide if they like one
of these concepts and if we should work towards that on down the line.
Lash: So this isn't going to be done?
...""
Hoffman: No. This is just so we make sure that the play equipment. Is
that disappointing?
Andrews: Parts of it will be done.
Hoffman: Correct, yep. Parts of it will be done. The tennis courts will
remain in their location and that was a question. Whether or not we should
have those tennis courts remain in their present location or whether we
should dismantle them and remove them and install two new courts in some
other location on this site. That type of thing. So those questions were
addressed as part of this development of this master plan. At the last
meeting and in the January meeting we took a look at some of the types of
things we potentially could do with this park and these plans are based on
that discussion and discussion with tennis enthusiasts in town, people from
the athletic association, the school folks and those types of people.
Robinson: Is there a property line there as to what belongs to school
district and what's the city?
Hoffman: Yes.
Robinson: Where's that?
Bruce Chamberlain: See this line up there. This line straight down to the
west. Down to this edge...and this is the school property.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 5
Robinson~ Does the school district have problems with the industrial
league playing on school property ballfields?
Hoffman: For a practice session? No. The agreements over the years as to
the development of City Center Park have been verbal in nature. A
cooperative effort to maintain and develop this site in such a manner to
meet the needs of both the school kids and then the community as a whole.
Lash: When we talked at the last meeting about, I think we had earmarked
about $20,000.00 or roughly for the tennis courts. Was that just to fix
the old ones?
Hoffman: That's to fix the four existing. The request for additional
tennis courts comes as looking on down the road for a site in Chanhassen to
hold some type of tournaments or large instructional and this site with
four tennis courts already there would be the best suited park site in
Chanhassen for that type of use.
Lash: What all would be involved with just trying to get the fields set up
in that configuration? Would city staff be able to do that and would we
have to tear the whole thing apart and reseed everything and lose a whole
season? What would something like that cost?
,.....
Hoffman: Yeah. We would potentially, or we would lose an entire season.
A cost estimate is something I've not taken a look at but there is some
fairly significant grading in the area where the lowland comes in. Some
fill would be needed to take place so it'd be a major undertaking but it
would be something that City maintenance crews could accomplish.
Robinson: That is a neat plan though. Boy, isn't it?
Bruce Chamberlain: Ready for number 2? Number 2 is actually the same as
number 1 except it builds a little bit on it. Number 1 is that the City
eventually acquires that future 3 acres that's been talked about for a
while. Also, that the hockey rinks stay in the same location but to
mitigate the problem that there is now with, see in this area the warming
house is here. Free skating is in this area and in order for the players
of this hockey rink to get to that rink, it's necessary for them to cross
over the first rink and access it through the center. I talked with
Chanhassen maintenance people and we really decided that ther~'s really no
solution because of snow removal problems and the close knit nature of that
area. There's retaining walls around the hockey rinks on the side and also
on this side. They come very close to the edge of the rinks. So the only
way that we felt we could get around that problem is to reconfigure the
hockey rinks and turn them at a 90 degree angle to what they are currently.
That would require the hockey rinks to be reduced in width by 5 feet, which
is still plenty within standards and also it would require the moving of
the lighting as currently is existing there. There's lighting actually I
believe 6 lamps for the hockey rinks and the rinks are kind of divided into
thirds. There, there and there and also two up on the upper edge. It
would require the moving of those lights in order to reconfigure the hockey
rink in this area.
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Erhart: How expensive would that be to move the lights?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 6
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Bruce Chamberlain: We haven't done any cost estimates or cost figuring
yet. It would be, I guess I could say considerable.
Ho~fman: It would entail the dismantling, removing the current footings,
pouring new footings, rewiring so by the time you get down to it. it would
b~ a large sum of actually purchasing new lights. So unless the problem is
to such a degree that it causes severe distress to some of the hockey
erithusiasts or the folks using those rinks. it would be difficult to go.
ahead and do that.
Las~: So what did we have it at the end of last meeting to put towards the
hockey rinks? Like $5,000.00 or something didn't we?
Hoffman: Yeah. Basically in discussions with Dale Gregory, Park Foreman,
with the money going towards the majority or the remainder of the money
left after the play structure going towards a tennis court, they will do
some intensive maintenance to those hockey boards. Be it shoring up their
stability and painting and that type of thing. That may cost $1,000.00 to
$2,000.00 to $3,000.00. That type of thing but after that, we'll look for
replacements sometime in the future.
Robinson: With money always being a concern, it looks like you could do
alternative 1 and as a second phase or whatever, do the second alternative
or make the second alternative additions to that because it is so similar.
It's just the hockey rinks and the addition of the 3 acres.
Bruce Chamberlain: Also in the alternative 2, we moved the warming house ~
also. Again, that's an option that can be added later. If we really
thought you deemed it necessary or that was a high priority, I would just
make the access'and the traffic through this hockey area a little bit more
convenient.
Schroers: And this is what the Chanhassen Hockey Leagues are having to use
now that we've lost the indoor facility.
Hoffman: They use this only for practices. All their games are taking
place at the community center in Chaska.
Bruce Chamberlain: You can see again that everything in the central
portion of the park remains the same as concept 1. The parking area
entrances off of Kerber Drive again, the area and the basketball court are
in the same areas. Configuration of the softball fields and soccer fields
are the same. Running tracks also and tennis courts. And the possible
future acquisition of 3 acres on the north side of the site, we think that
there's really only one best alternative for the use of that site. That
includes one soccer field and the inclusion of two additional softball
diamonds. To mitigate any parking problems off of Saratoga Circle on that
side, we also included a parking lot that could accommodate 28 cars plus in
that area and that would alleviate any on street parking problems that may
occur near facilities in that area. Again, if community members are
driving to the site, they have two central locations at this point now if
the future addition comes to pass. One, for the main area of the park off
of Kerber Drive and then another for these facilities and maybe even they
could accommodate tennis courts possibly off of Saratoga Circle.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 7
Schroers: Are all the ballfields, soccer fields, hoc~ey rinks, are they
all official size? Regulation?
Bruce Chamberlain: Yes. We confirmed with the soccer element in
Chanhassen and came up with two sizes that they wanted so we included those
into this master plan.
Hoffman: And those are not only what they wanted but official sizes for
the American Soccer Association for that particular age group. And then
the baseball diamonds or ballfields are 180 foot distances down the foul
lines. They're not fenced because there's no need for that fence there.
It's just merely a backstop and then that 180 foot distance to the next
field.
Lash: Do you think that we'd be able to, this year with the funds that we
have, or the things that we've kind of allocated it, would there be enough
money left to do the little basketball area that they wanted to put in on
the north end there? Or the south end?
Hoffman: Depending on cost estimates that come in on the tennis courts, it
would be tight but it's a possibility.
Lash: Maybe we could try to shoot for that at least, if we could get that
in.
,....
Hoffman: And it would be appropriate to have the same contractor that
comes in to do the tennis court overlay to install it. It would fit nicely
into that improvement program.
Lash: Is there an area that ultimately when we did all this other stuff on
the north end to put in a little basketball area too? The way it operates
now, and you may know this already but the first thru third graders use the
north end playground and then the west or the south, whatever you want to
call that side, is used by the fourth and fifth graders. Well second-third
graders like to shoot baskets too so if we had some baskets on the north
end, I'm sure they'd get used too. Now we don't want it in the parking lot
because that's where they ran into the problem before where it gets backed
over.
Hoffman: With the future acquisition there certainly would be some space
to install that but in Plan 1 or Concept A which we currently are faced
with, we're bound by the tennis courts and the parking lot.
Bruce Chamberlain:
get fairly tight.
I'm sure we could squeeze but things are starting t9
We're already now starting to put...
Andrews: Do you think as far as parking, you know with the future use of
this park, what you have designed in either phase is enough to facilitate a
crowded park with possibly both soccer games and tennis matches and
baseball games going on?
Bruce Chamberlain: Yeah, we believe so. Right now there's somewhat of a
~ strain at time on the existing parking lot. Again, this parking area, the
way it's designed right now, accommodates 30 cars and I think it could
accommodate up to 40. And because of the space constraints, we really
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 8
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can't do a whole lot more but actually I do think that would be sufficient.
Lash: We have both of the school parking lots on either end and the one up
here by City Hall.
Hoffman: If you go ahead and point out all the parking lots which do
encompass the area.
Bruce Chamberlain: As the master planning goes into the next phase, that
would be something that would be programmed and decided based on...
Schroers: Did you actually set this up and design it with the phase type
thing in mind? You're just planning on future acquisition for the second?
Bruce Chamberlain: Actually the way it's laid out, it lends itself very
well to phasing. Probably the initial things that would be done would be,
obviously the upgrading of the play area on the south side of the school
and also the basketball court. The next steps would probably be the
addition of the tennis, the two additional tennis courts and also the
inclusion of the three ball diamonds and parking area. At that point
there's not much involvement in putting a soccer field in. The areas where
additional grading is necessary, it really doesn't interfere with the three
ball diamonds so that could be the next phase. The areas in this corner
and also in this corner where additional fill is needed.
Schroers: Okay, what I was referring to was a phase between Concept 1 and
Concept 2 because they're so similar. And having Concept 2 as Phase 2 ....",
then?
Bruce Chamberlain: Yeah.
Schroers: Just when that property would become available or if?
Hoffman: The property was looked at as part of the community center
proposal. The owner also is the developer of the apartments there to the
east. They would like to develop one more apartment which would take up
the space which is shown still on his property. That area there and then
he would be willing to sell that parcel but obviously there needs to be a
push. There needs to be a need to go out and spend that kind of money on
additional acquisition here. It's a good idea to have it on the plan like
this so it's identified and possibly even put it in the Comprehensive plan
as a future open space acquisition and at such time when it did become
available or the wheels started turning on some type of land purchase or
land, the selling of that parcel, then at that time we could take a look at
our different alternatives.
Schroers: Is it safe to assume then that staff favors Concept 1 at the
present time?
Hoffman: Certainly. Concept 1 is the most attainable at any time in the
future. Foreseeable time. Concept 2 would take some additional need or
desire by the community to have those additional ballfields and additional
land. There's also the possibility of, depending on the healthy economy,
to take a look at some support from the school district in that future
acquisition of that property.
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Pa,k and Rec Commission Meeting
Feb,ua,y 26, 1991 - Page 9
Robinson: What do we have out the,e now? We've got a socce, field. I
don't know how ,egulation size it is.
Lash: I think they can have 3 games going the,e at once.
B,uce Chambe,lain: Th,ee socce, fields and three baseball fields.
Hoffman: The socce, fields cu"ently a,e in this location.
wa,ming house a,ea. One by the t,ack and this area he,e.
sepa,ate fields...and that's fo, fall socce,.
Ove, to the
The,e's th,ee
Sch,oe,s: Any mo,e questions 0, input from the commission?
Andrews: What do we need to do he,e? Do we need to make a motion to
pu,sue a plan he,e 0, this advisory only?
Hoffman: We should take a look. These a,e p,oposed. If we could like to
identify any changes...
Lash: I think it looks like a g,eat plan and I'd like to see us look into
getting some ,ough estimates befo,e next yea,'s budget is put togethe, as
to how much it would cost to go fo,ward with Phase 1 and see if it's
something we could get into fai,ly soon. I think we're going to be needing
that space very soon, if we don't already.
,....
B,uce Chamberlain: We can be more detailed also as fa, as the phasing that
would occur and b,eak down the p,ices acco,dingly.
Andrews:
say, li ke
,egrading
different
It seems like most of
realigning the hockey
of the fields so it's
orde,s or all at once
these changes can be
rinks. One addition
so,t of modular. We
if we choose to.
separated, like you
tennis cou,t or the
can put it togethe, in
B,uce Chambe,lain: There's really only a few elements that need to be
prioritized and in o,der and those would be, I wouldn't include three ball
diamonds without including a parking a,ea. It would create kind of a mess
as fa, as circulation.
Sch,oers: Even in Concept 1, if we felt at some point in time that the
hockey rinks we,e a problem, they could be turned.
Bruce Chamberlain: Without disturbing any of the retaining walls that are
cu,rently in place.
Lash: Also like I said, the soccer wall and possible basketball up on the
no,th side, would be the only two additions I'd like to see with that.
Andrews: My main concern is still pa,king. I look at all those ballfields
and 40 spaces kind of scares me.
Lash: Can you point out to him where all the school pa,king lots are.
People pa,k the,e all the time now.
,....
And,ews: But that's on the othe, side of the complex.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 10
...."
Lash: But it's not for, if you called the two closest to the school.
That's where we park now. If we play on that field now, we park on the
south end parking lot. It's the closest one to the ball diamond.
Bruce Chamberlain: I guess you could imagine people, if the ball diamonds
were programmed and you knew what ball diamonds you were playing on, the
people using this diamond would probably park here. People using this
diamond would probably park in that parking lot and people using the other
facilities on the west side near Kerber Drive would probably use this one.
Hoffman: Or they could park on Kerber. The portion south would still be
available for parking and then the rear parking lot at City Hall.
Lash: Without being able to park on Kerber though, that is going to cause
a little bit more of a.
Hoffman: They'll still be able to park on the southern half of Kerber once
you get past the crossing zone. The signs do end there. Somewhere up the
street here where there's still parking available.
Bruce Chamberlain: Also to address that concern, more there's possibly an
opportunity if we really squeeze, to get another row of cars in this
parking lot on the west side of City Hall. Possibly.
Lash: Do you have any ideas of what we would do the season that this was
out of play?
....,
Hoffman: In thinking of that in the interim here, if immediately after the
4th oT July when the games ended for that particular year, grading was
commenced and seeding took place sometime in late fall, it stills, the best
case scenario is Lake Susan Park with the irrigation that was available
there. We are going to be able to play there this June. But that's
leaving the month of May for it to grow so even in the best case scenario,
if all the grading could be done, the ag lime could be put in and it could
be seeded, we still would never make that so we'd have to then move them
out to the satellite parks which are developed at that time being North
Lotus, Outlot G. Whatever that may be after tonight's meeting. Rice Lake
Marsh Park, Carver Beach Park, Meadow Green Park. We would have to do some
tight scheduling. There would be a little bit of chaos in the athletic
association probably for that summer.
Lash: Let's wait 2 years.
Andrews: How do we put this all in a motion?
Bruce Chamberlain: Does anyone have any more questions?
Schroers: The plan looks good.
Lash: Are you looking for a motion? Is that what you're looking for?
Schroers: Okay, Jan you added a second basketball court and soccer wall.
Lash: Well actually I wouldn't mind seeing the basketball court in phase 1
if it's possible but I think the soccer wall would almost have to be in
...",
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 11
phase 2.
When that property would be.
Schroers: So if we make a motion to recommend concept 1 for the master
plan and add the soccer wall, the additional basketball court and leave
open the potential for moving into concept plan 2 should the additional
property come available, that would just about cover it wouldn't it? Okay,
I guess we need a motion to that effect.
Andrews: So moved,
Lash: Second.
Andrews moved. Lash seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to approve Concept 1 for the master plan for City Center Park
with the addition of a soccer wall and additional basketball court while
leaving open the potential for moving into Concept 2 should the additional
property become available in the future. All voted in favor and the motion
carried unanimously.
APPROVE PURCHASE OF PLAY AREA EXPANSIONS. BANDIMERE HEIGHTS PARK. CARVER
BEACH PLAYGROUND. CURRY FARMS PARK AND LAKE SUSAN PARK.
Hoffman: To quickly give an overview, all four of these expansions were
~ included in the 1991 CIP. The numbers were designated as part of that.
Currently all the play structures at those particular parks are of the
redwood structure by Landscape Structures located in Delano, Minnesota.
They were all purchased through Earl F. Anderson. Dave Owen is our
representative from Earl F. Anderson. We met on site during some blustery
weather at times at all of these particular play locations to ensure that
border was sufficient. To make sure that the play areas or the expansions
which were proposed matched. To ensure that the play amenities of the
different play apparatus were varied and to ensure that we were meeting the
appropriate age category for each of those parks. Throughout that process
he called back and confirmed with me the plans that he was working on to
ensure that we both understood which direction we were headed. You have in
your packet each one of the diagrams. They also include, or most of them
include as a Phase 3, all of the pur~hases which we're looking at at this
time are designated as Phase 2. I'd like to put up some larger boards just
to ensure that everyone has a clear understanding of what is currently at
each one.of these parks and then what we are looking at purchasing in this
Phase 2 addition. And then potentially what could be added to complete or
to add to these parks in future years. Bandimere Heights Park is a small
play str.ucture to begin with. The additional $3,500.00 was earmarked, we
had a request from the neighborhood there for an older age group kids. As
such, the yellow area is the play structure that currently exists. This
vertical ladder was moved to Curry Farms which you note that on your plans
there. It's pulled off to Curry Farms. Charged to this project along with
two poles to mount it and then a vertical ladder. That included with this
deck structure, the curved tube slide and then the super scoop. Additional
border wood and then I believe phase 2 included a wheel and additional wood
wall and then the border and the additional pea rock. Anything to the
~ north in this area would be incorporated in as a Phase 3. There's no
question, moving on to Carver Beach.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 12
.....".
Lash: This was supposed to be for older kids?
Hoffman: When you're working with $3,500.00, yeah. Older kids, the upper
arm mobility is what they usually bring in. The vertical ladder to cross
over and then you go down the slide and that's off of a 70 foot or 70 inch
step on each deck so it's the higher deck. The larger area, the longer the
tube slide.
Koubsky: Is Bandimere spelled right on that?
Hoffman: Incorrectly spelled. Again, taking into consideration the
clatter bridge, which is a crossing mechanism. Any of the bridges... are
considered to me an older age group category...
Lash: That's Phase 3 though isn't it?
Hoffman: Yes. That would be Phase 3.
Koubsky: These totlots in general Todd. You know when I grew up we never
had much like this and I know with insurances, people started getting sued
with kids getting hurt on what they had so they went to really dull and not
exciting playgrounds but I guess they were safe for everybody. Is there
any type of an insurance problem with any of the development of these, what
I think are much more fun but obviously with you know chain climbers and
,things like that, may pose more of a physical risk for some of the kids.
Hoffman: Any of the equipment that we would recommend purchasing would -,.
fall under the Consumer Safety Guidance Report. It's a federal consumer...
safety and a review board reviews just about everything that is made in the
U.S. or installed here...all of these play structures for fall heights,
pinch points, trap points. Those types of things...and that's the other
reason we're going to the...surfacing or the 12 inches of pea rock with the
border.
Schroers: I think where you run into liabilities if it's found that the
City was negligent in maintaining, taking care of or knowing of a safety
concern and not addressing it.
Hoffman: Carver Beach playground.
Andrews: I have a question about Bandimere. Did the neighborhood give you
an indication of what they considered to be their older age group that they
were concerned about?
Hoffman: Any time you talk about, or at least I believe I presume what
they mean when they talked about it was a comment... You look at that age
group from about 3 to 6 and then about 6 to 12. Children 12 and older
basically, they'll dabble in play equipment areas but they'll spend a
majority of their time to the older age group would be 6 to 12. Other
questions about Bandimere? What exists currently at Carver Beach play
ground, the border was not there. The play structure shown in yellow in
the middle currently exists...sand surface which probably only reaches a
depth of anywhere from between 4 to 6 inches. There is also a slide which
is excessive in height and does not have the closed...on the stairs and
would be removed. There's an older swingset, 4 swingsets which would be ~
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~, February 26, 1991 - Page 13
left in here until such time as it became too difficult to maintain and
would be removed. Proposal for $5,000.00 in the expansion for 1991 is
shown as phase 2. It includes again the clatter bridge going across to a
14 inch deck. The deck underneath and then we would put a 75 inch deck
with a vertical ladder up to that deck. A new loop pole which is a
climbing apparatus up onto the 70 inch deck and then a tube slide coming
down to that location. It also includes the entire border to enclose this
area and allow for the surfacing material, the pea gravel for the entire
structure. That includes moving that chain bar which is kind of located...
Phase 3, or the pulley system was originally included in the phase 2 but
with budget constraints that could not be included as part of that. Then
Phase 3 would...
Lash: Did you say the old slide was coming out?
Hoffman: Yes. Currently this playground that exists in this fashion with
the sand throughout the entire area, there's a small balance beam. The
slide in this area and then the swingset. Any particular questions or
concerns in Carver Beach? Hearing none, Curry Farms. We have designated a
total of $2,500.00 of the $10,000.00 which was available for general park
improvements as part of Curry Farms. That $2,500.00 does meet with the,
proposed improvements at Curry Farms for 1991 which includes the addition
of play equipment, finishing the volleyball courts, installation of the
asphalt walking trail and then also the separation and installation of the
ballfield in that area, including the backstop, aggregate infield, bases
~ and pitching mound. Again the yellow area is what currently exists. We
would remove the vertical ladder down to Bandimere. Install a crawl tunnel
with 20 inch deck up to a 42 inch deck which is a somewhat lower deck with
a climbing apparatus out on this end. A tube slide and the tire swing. As
you can see, this is geared towards for the most part a younger age group.
Over the past we've heard, the Curry Farms folks that at present the
majority of that age group there is somewhat younger age category.
Andrews: I have a question regarding all these parks. We've talked about
moving equipment around. Is this equipment that is modular or
transportable enough or as neighborhoods mature and other ones become
younger, that it really is feasible to reconfigure our playgrounds from one
place to another?
Hoffman: From one playground to another?
Andrews: Yeah.
,...,
Hoffman: It certainly is interesting. There's a feasibility to do that.
All the structures that currently exist have basically been custom designed
and there is potential there to pick up pieces and moving equipment and
placing it elsewhere. Lastly, 'Lake Susan Park playground expansion. The
Lake Susan community park...where there's going to be a large number of not
only daily park users in the family and that type of form, but also as
group picnic reservations come in, ball games that take place at the
ballfield there with the family...in need of a play activity. With the
addition of this structure here, with the exclusion again of the track
rides, which brings in all the dark colored areas and then as well the
swingset structure. This phase 2 was identified as part of phase 1
purchase so it was in place. You modified that to include some of the
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 14
....,;
newer elements which Landscape Structures has come out with. Being the
wave slide, a wave pole and those were two things that are incorporated...
Lash: For Phase 3 would we be able to stick in a couple of those diggers?
Hoffman: Sure.
Lash: Those are always used a lot. They're real popular.
Hoffman: Diggers are also in addition to the...popular as well.
Lash: Just to back up for a second. when I mentioned the digger, I
noticed on Bandimere you had the super scoop digger which to me is more in
line with the younger age kids.
Hoffman: It was brought in there as a means of attempting to bring the
dollar amount. There's nothing we could do in the structure itself so we
just installed that...
Schroers: Okay, is the Phase 2 all scheduled to go in 1991?
Hoffman: Correct.
Schroers: And are the people that you've been working with, they are going
to install them?
Hoffman: The City maintenance crews will install these.
--'
Schroers: And we have the staff and the time to do all that?
Hoffman: All the Phase l's or all the initial development, all of these
were installed by the Park and Maintenance crews and these additions as
well...would be a number priority or something installed in the...
Schroers: Unless there are additional questions or comments then we could
look for a motion that these capital improvements project be approved as
shown.
Andrews: I'll make the motion that we approve these projects as proposed
and ask that they be completed as early as possible this year.
Erhart: And I'll second that.
Andrews moved, Erhart seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to approve the play area expansions for Bandimere Heights Park,
Carver Beach Playground, Curry Farms Park and Lake Susan Park as proposed
by staff asking that they be installed as early as possible in 1991. All
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Lash: Are you going to be prioritizing which ones you want to put in
first?
Hoffman: As to these particular projects? We certainly, I'm working on a
work funtion prioritization and in doing that today, I labeled these all as
a priority 1. If we want to get into specifics as to which one you'd like ~
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ February 26, 1991 - Page 1~
~
"""'
to see included first among that ranking system, I'd certainly welcome your
opinion in doing so.
ESTABLISH 1991 LAKE ANN PARK ENTRANCE FEES.
Hoffman: In accordance with the Chanhassen City Code, Chapter 14, Park and
Recreation, Section 14-59, Parking Permits, the parking permit fee for Lake
Ann Park must be established by resolution by the City Council each year.
The history was provided there so you have some information on what has
occurred with gross revenues and then with the fees which were charged to
accumulate those gross revenues over the past 4 years. As you recall, last
year in trying to review this item, I think I paged back all the way to
September and then we talked about it in 4 different meetings during 1989
to finally come up to a conclusion or recommendation for the 1990 fees. As
you can see, those fees which were $2.00 for a daily, $5.00 for an annual
resident, and $10.00 for a non-resident annual accumulated in $12,500.00
gross revenues which was up a thousand from the year prior. As well, some
of the majority of that discussion that time around centered around how we
would operate the gate function itself. Who would be allowed in without
paying. Who strictly has to pay. How are we going to handle the adult
softball. Those types of things. The conclusion which was made and the
recommendation which was made at that time is that participants of youth
activities and instructional activities, whether that be a baseball
program, swimming lesson, playground program, something of that nature,
where they've signed up. They've paid a fee to be in the program. Those
people and their spectators and/or parents would .not be charged a fee to
enter the park. That includes teams coming in from out of town visitor
teams coming in to playa Chanhassen team in a particular ballgame. It was
also recommended at that. time to include 15 par k stickers or $75.00 worth
of park stickers right into the adult softball fee. Those two
recommendations and those two guidelines or procedures worked fairly well
or worked extremely well. The best of any that's been used in my
experience at the gate house for the past 4 years. We had the least amount
of problems and things seemed to operate fairly smoothly. There's also
been talk in the past about, it's somewhat unusual to have this type of
charge at a community park. We've talked that it is not unusual to have
this type of charge at a beach. Strictly a beach function but Lake Ann is
more than that. However, as noted in my memo, under the current economic
situations which we're surviving, omitting the fee or dismantling at this
time is not recommended either. What is recommended is that since things
did operate smoothly, we stick with the same fees and recommend those fees
and the same procedures as 1990.
Andrews: I'd like to make one comment. I think for the sake of smoothness
I agree it ought to be left alone but I've had a position of being a
conservative when it comes to revenue and I think with the State and
Federal government projecting, I've heard figures around 40% as far as
reductions or contribution to local government and I guess I have a concern'
about that we have to watch our available resources and our available
sources of money carefully and if indeed we do see our funding dry up that
we'd have to take a look at raising our fees for 1992.
Schroers: As a benefit to the newer members of the commission, I think we
might point out that this is an issue that we have spent a lot of time on.
It wasn't easy to reach a workable and acceptable solution and as far as
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 16
....",
revenues that's generated in the overall budget of the park operations,
it's really not all that significant. I mean if we raise the gate fees by
a buck or two, we're not really doing ourself a major justice by doing
that.
Hoffman: If you recall Jerry's end of the year report, when you take off
the employee cost and those types of things associated with that, we were
down around just in excess of $5,000.00 for a net revenue.
Lash: I have just two comments that I thought of tonight. Originally I
thought this was just fine and I still do. It worked last year and we
spent hours discussing it last year. I think that's fine but one gripe
that I end up with, and this is pretty petty I have to admit but I realize
there are a lot of teams, men. Well, maybe women too. Softball teams who
have non-residents on their teams and then they're getting the sticker for
the resident fee. But I don't see that there's anything we can do about it
but that kind of gripes me. Number one that they're non-resident and then
they're getting the thing for the same price and can use it as many times
as they want. Not just for games. But another thing just came to my mind
and that's how similar some of the facilities at Lake Susan are to this
park and is it something we want to think about. Do we want to have a
similar kind of system at Lake Susan or is that just always going to be
free admittance? ...adding on at Lake Ann if it's free and it's got the
boat access and the swimming beach and the picnic shelter and a lot of the
same faci li ties.
Erhart: Maybe they'll go over there then.
.."",t
Lash: Well yeah, maybe they will. Or maybe it would behoove us to have
the same kind of system over there and double.
Erhart: If you buy a pass for Lake Ann, you could get into Lake Susan?
Hoffman: The situation, it has been discussed time and time again.
Initially the fee was established at Lake Ann as part of the beach program.
Lake Ann was initially basically a beach setting. The ballfields were
installed at the same time. There will not be an official, there's a sand.
area at Lake Susan. Park. You would be hard pressed to find anybody who
will partake in swimming there because of the water quality. It will not
be maintained as a beach. It will not be marked as a beach and there will
not be lifeguards there so Lake Ann will continue to be the popular and the
most favorite spot for that type of activity.
Schroers: Is the shelter at Lake Susan available for reservations?
Hoffman: Yes. As noted in one of the upcoming items.
schroers: Okay. Well I guess that is something that we could look at some
point in time in the future if we feel that it's warranted but for right
now we're dealing with the 1991. Were you thinking about that for this
season?
Lash: No, no, no. I just thought it was food for thought. That if we're
going to have this set up at one facility that is I think comparable in a
....."
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~, February 26, 1991 - Page 17
lot of the things offered that it just doesn't seem right to have it at one
and not the other.
Schroers: Well that's a good point.
Lash: Just to think about it.
Schroers: Okay, with that is there anyone interested in submitting a
motion?
Lash:
Ann.
I would move that we approve the park fees as used in 1990 for Lake
For 1991. The same as 1990.
Schroers: Okay, is there a second?
Erhart: Second.
Lash moved, Erhart seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to establish the 1991 parking fees at the same rate as 1990 and
that all park users, except youth participants of organized recreational
and instructional activities and their parents/spectators, be required to
pay the fee. Further, it is recommended that all adult softball teams pay
for 15 park stickers ($75.00) as part of their team registration fee. All
voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
~.
ESTABLISH GROUP PICNIC AND BALLFIELD RESERVATION FEES.
JI'"
Hoffman: You led us right into item 5 Larry in that this particular memo
discussed group picnic and ballfield reservation fees. Group picnic fees
are nothing new. Those have been established and used in the past years
but the idea of the ballfield reservation or generating some income by use
of the ballfields by non-resident groups is new to our community. However,
it is used extensively in other communities to generate some considerable
amounts of money for the general park funds. Again, Lake Susan Park, the
one which I dealt with first, has been out of commission let us say for the
past 2 years with the remodeling taking place at that park. Prior to that
time it was, people call ita pr ivate par k.' It was isolated. The picnic
shelter was constructed years before as part of a project to build a
wellhouse which also exists as part of that building. However, it was made
available for group reservations. They used the farmer's field access road
to get down into that location and it remained a popular spot at that time.
Now with the drastic changes which has taken place at Lake Susan, I would
foresee that it is going to be even more popular th~n Lake Ann for group
picnics due to the fact that it does having running water at the current
time, electricity and the nice park shelter which is there. The amenities
are listed. The recommended group rates are based off of those amenities.
Taking a look at what other communities and what other agencies are
charging and then as well taking into consideration both non-resident and
resident groups and then as well giving a discount for recommended and
discount for school groups, government groups and non-profits. Boy Scouts
and senior groups. Those type of things. Fees which are being
recommended for a resident group for Lake Susan Park shelter is $50.00 per
picnic. Non-resident group would be $150.00. And then non-profit or
senior group discounts would receive a 25% discount. Again, to clarify
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 18
..",.,
when these people are making a group picnic reservation, they only receive
the exclusive right of the shelter building and then all the other park
facilities are open to the public and subject to use by other people.
Larry, however you would like to take one of these. If you would like to
address each one separately or all of them as a package. It's up to you.
Schroers: You mean each individual 'fee?
Hoffman: Each individual site.
Schroers: Well, we should maybe just look at each site and see what kind
of questions or input it generates. One thing that I did have overall, a
question is, has staff considered charging a damage deposit along with a
reservation fee?
Hoffman: That's a good point. It was not noted in this particular
memorandum but as part of the park facility reservation form which we
currently have, we do use a damage deposit which is in excess of $100.00.
Lash: How much in excess?
Hoffman: Hundred bucks. None. None in excess.
Lash: That was my question too.
Hoffman: If it included picnic kits, then it was $125.00.
....."
Lash: Another question overall. How do you make this, the reservation
known? Say I reserved it for 2:00 and a whole bunch of other people showed
up at noon and I got there at 2:00. How am I supposed to get rid of those
people?
Hoffman: We need to entail a signage system which would allow people to
know if it is reserved for that particular day or not and then as well,
provide the people who are using the picnic shelter on that particular day
with a copy of their reservation permit. Typically those forks showup
fairly early prior to the normal picnic or recreation starting, you know at
10:00-11:00 when typically the busy times pick up. They're there earlier
setting up so typically there isn't that problem but we should come up with
a signage system which will allow those people to know that specifically.
Lash: And then who would do that?
Hoffman: Who would change that?
Lash: Well who would go put the signs up or whatever?
Hoffman: It would be something that could be permanently affixed, either
by a metal pole systems in front of the area or permanently affixed to the
shelter building itself.
Schroers: I think what Jan is getting at, is there a staff person that
would be responsible for going down and putting up the sign or would it be
up to the group to put up the signs themself?
...."",
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ February 26, 1991 - Page 19
Hoffman: We would designate a staff person. Probably a seasonal
maintenance person that is going to be coming in to do the clean up or the
maintenance after these picnics as well on the weekend.
Schroers: We found that a two sign system works. We have a name of the
reservation area on a sign and then that sign says reserved at a given date
and we also have metal poles with reserved signs that we put in the ground
immediately adjacent to the parking area for the parking area that is
adjacent to that reserved area. So other people coming in see on the name
of the site like Lake Susan picnic shelter, reserved. Then when they to
into park, there's also a sign that says reservation parking only and these
are on posts that you can just push into the ground and then pullout
again.
Lash: My other question was, the 25% fee for the non-profit and the senior
groups. Is that also based on resident and non-resident?
Hoffman: Correct.
Schroers: Do you want to take us through these site by site Todd?
Hoffman: I can. Lake Ann Park, the two sites which currently exist. The
Parkview group reservation site and then Lakeside and if you had a question
on where those two sites are, they were designated on the map. It was
attached in the back. Parkview is up on top of the hill. Currently it
~. just exists as a large grassy, open area. There's picnic tables there.
Currently there are grills there but a large group picnic grill will be
installed as part of the 1991 CIP. The other amenities which are listed
are also available to that site. This group receives the exclusive use of
the picnic area and there's also a volleyball court and horseshoe pits
which are incorporated right into the site. The fees for Lake Ann
basically cannot be patterned after other parks of this particular nature
per se because we do entail the parking permit system. So the overall, the
base rate is somewhat lower but then that is brought up, or that is
in~reased through the parking of the vehicles. So the recommended group
reservation sites for Parkview and Lakeside coincide. They are a base rate
of $25.00 for a resident group with one parking permit per vehicle and then
a non-resident group rate, base rate of $75.00 with a one parking permit
per vehicle required. In the past, these company picnics which have taken
place, the larger ones which have taken place at parkview, at times
generate in excess of $200.00 to $300.00 to $400.00 in parking permits so
the additional revenue from those parking permits is in most cases picked
up by the company. Then in other cases where the patrons each have to pay
individually, the money is still realized there. That increased revenue.
Koubsky: Todd, could there be options with a lot of these you know groups.
You might want to play softball or get into that type of activity where
they could have an optional ballfield rental fee.
Hoffman: For these particular groups?
Koubsky: Or would that be something separate?
,...,
Hoffman: We could take a look at that. It would per chance become
somewhat cumbersome in that if we reserved one ballfield for a particular
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 20
-'
group that was reserving a site for that weekend and then a group came in
and would voice that they would like to reserve all three fields, we
wouldn't have that availability then at that time. So we can pre-empt one
or the other. Whichever way we choose to do it. Traditionally weekends,
the reservation group sites have had their choice of all fields, 1, 2 or 3.
The ballfields are just not used that extensively on weekends. However,
there is times in the fall when they're used for in-house tournaments or
State or Regional tournaments where then those group picnicers have
problems because they do not have a field available. Another thought with
the fields 4, 5 and 6 available by June or by mid-summer, they would still
be in adequate condition where they could accommodate a pick-up game by one
of these groups. It falls back again to signage. How do you designate
then if you're going to reserve this ballfield? You would have to go over
and sign that as well. That type of thing.
Robinson: Did you check with some other areas Todd as to when you came up
with these fees?
Hoffman: As I mentioned, yeah. I talked with, over in the past years I've
talked to the cities of Chaska, Shakopee. I called over to Hennepin Parks.
I've had some experience with the city of Bloomington and I also talked
with people in Eden Prairie. Again, as I mentioned, Lake Ann is somewhat
unique that you have a base rate there and then depending on the size of
the particular group, you're going to realize a different in revenue there
so it's, and again as also noted in the report, the amenities which we
currently offer at these two sites are somewhat limited. And as those
amenities, if a park shelter is built or water or electricity is brought ~
into those sites, these fees should and will rise accordingly.
Lash: I think Lake Susan has quite a few amenities don't you?
Hoffman: oh yeah. It certainly does.
Lash: That seems like a real deal. $50.00. Isn't it?
Hoffman: In the past it's been used at a no charge type of situation.
Lash: Well you couldn't get in there before.
Hoffman: If the Commission feels $50.00 is unnecessarily low, we can
certainly increase that.
Schroers: I think it's good business practice to, for the first year have
your fees reasonable and generate interest and then if we find that we're
just booked, it makes it a lot easier to raise the fees.
Lash: Do you think that's compared with Hennepin? You have that
experience. Does that seem like it's right in the ballpark? I really
don't know.
Schroers: Well, I think for the facilities that are offered that you're
right. It is a good deal. I think that we could get more money for it but
I don't know that we sh041d. On the first year I think we should go with
staff's proposal of $50.00 and let's look at it for a year and see what
-'"
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
.1"""'> February 26, 1991 - Page 21
happens and then if we feel, because this fee structure tends to come up
every year anyway.
Lash: That's true. See how it goes. I guess I'd be interested, if it
looks like it's going well and I think that they will from the past. It
sounds like Lake Ann is always booked up. I guess I want to look at having
it be, having the resident rate be 50% of the non-resident rate and that
would be in line with what we're charging for the parking. Residents pay
half as much. Here they're paying only a third as much.
Schroers: That makes sense. In some places, in busy areas, rates are
different. On weekdays versus weekends versus holidays and you can get
this thing to be real complicated.
Koubsky: We might want to consider since Lake Susan does have more
amenities, it does have bathrooms with running water. There is a shelter.
There might be more things to damage there. That if you did assess damage
deposits, you might consider assessing a large damage deposit be put down
for the Lake Susan than to the other areas.
Schroers: I think the damage deposit is important. It sends the group
leader a message right away that we care about our facilities.
,....,
Hoffman: We've used them in the past for trash pick-up, site clean-up. To
insure that that did take place to a degree which we were set asiding.
Schroers: Would we have done that to anything over the ordinary $18.00 or
$20.00 per hour out of the damage deposit for unusual clean-up or whatever?
Okay, did you want to get into the ballfields then Todd?
Hoffman: The ballfields, we have had requests in the past and groups have
used the ballfields on weekends for church tournaments, invitational
tournaments, those types of things. And this has gone on over, since the
inception of the Lake Ann Park. Many communities, Champlain in one, uses
these fees just extensively and they're booked weekend after weekend
throughout the summer for invitational tournaments, softball tournaments
and they're realizing some great revenue. What I've laid out here is the
rental for fields 1, 2 and 3 only. Since the three new fields, we'll try
to layoff those as much as possible in this first year to allow the
continued growth and good health and for a one or two day rental
possibility. The rental would include the exclusive use of those fields
and the unimproved shelter as it currently exist. Manual field dragger,
hand drag. Two bags of the sparkle liming material per day. The lime
marking machine. Portable refuse and the refuse service which is provided.
The recommended group rental rates for an 8:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. day which
does not include lights, are for a resident group. One day, $100.00. For
a non-resident group, one day $200.00. And for a two day, resident group,
$175.00. Corresponding, $350.00 for a two day non-resident group. If
those groups choose to use the lights, the rental of the lights until 10:00
p.m. on Field 1 only would be an additional $25.00 per day. Then again the
non-profit senior group discount rate of 25% off also included as part of
the ballfield reservation.
,.....
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 22
.....",
Andrews: I wanted to make a comment on the rental of lights. I look at
that, the potential extension of the rental day that you're offering as
well as additional cost to operate those lights and I don't think the
$25.00 fee is adequate for that. Potentially you're looking, near
September 30th, you're looking at a substantial extension of the day for
them to get more, or reduce their hourly cost to use the field but at the
same time you're incurring substantial additional costs to operate those
lights. I guess I feel that that should be raised.
Hoffman: That's a point well taken. The $25.00, it only obviously pays
for electricity and some more but not so much more than it would pay for
those additional 4 hours. Might be near $50.00.
Andrews: That's what I was going to say. I would suggest $50.00 is a more
reasonable figure.
Schroers: I would find that acceptable.
Koubsky: Would the city maintenance individual then be in charge of
turning those on and off?
Hoffman: A timer mechanism would be set for those nights appropriately.
Andrews: Typically they run well past 10:00 anyway so people can get off
the fields, get into their cars and get out anyway so you're even looking
at a 'cost beyond 10:00 actually.
Erhart: So $50.00 a day?
..,.,
Schroers: Any more comments, input, changes?
Robinson: I make a motion that the group picnic and ballfield reservation
fees be accepted as presented except for the $50.00 per day fee on the
rental of lights.
Schroe.s: Second?
Lash: I'd like to add to that if I may. That this be reviewed again next
year.
Andrews: I'll second that.
Robinson moved, Andrews seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to establish the 1991 group picnic and ballfield reservation
rates as presented by staff with the following amendments: The rate for
rental of lights at Lake Ann Park, Field #1 be $50.00 and that this item be
reviewed annually. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
NAME PARKS - LAKE SUSAN HILLS WEST. OUTLOTS F. G AND H AND PHEASANT HILLS
PARCEL.
Hoffman: The item you've all been waiting for right.
..,.,
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~. February 26, 1991 - Page 23
Robinson: How many commission members do we have and how many parks do we
have?
Hoffman: As noted in this report, we did discuss some of these outlots in
December of 1989. In the same timeframe of those discussions about the
Lake Ann Park fees, we were somewhat long winded back then for some reason.
It may end up to be the same case this evening. There are four outlots as
mentioned. Outlot E is not being addressed at this time. It is the
largest outlot in the Lake Susan Hills West area. That outlot has not been
deeded to the City because the area surrounding it has not been final
platted and it has not been deeded over to the City. At such time when
that does occur, then we'll go back and plug that park in with the names so
I just brought it up this evening so as we think about if we get into a
trend for the other three parks in this area, that we should be thinking
about this one at some point in the future as well. Chairman Schroers, I
guess I'm going to leave it up to you to run through these and if you want
to take them in the order they appear or if we want to jump back to
probably, potentially the easiest one. Get that one out of the way first,
we certainly can do that.
Schroers: Well, let's just take them as they come. Before the meeting
some of us that were here a little earlier were discussing it and I know
that there are a couple people that have thought of some names ahead of
time which may be helpful. Let's just attack it here and see what we can
do. So on Outlot F of Lake Susan Hills West. What do we have for
suggestions?
,.....
Lash: I had several different thoughts on this. First of all I like the
idea of a name that when someone says it, you have an idea of where it is.
Like Pheasant Hills Park or I was going to say Chaparral Park but that got
changed to Meadow Green so that doesn't apply anymore but I like using the
development name if we can, although with this particular area, we have a
snaffu because all four parks are in the same development basically plus a
community park there too. So then I thought, well most of the streets are
named after some kind of wildlife or some kind of bird so maybe that would
be a nice theme to kind of hook them together. Or the thing I liked the
best was to hook it in somehow with the natural amenity that Todd pointed
out in each case. In the first case, he said that the hill was the focal
point and so I came up with some different ideas of something Hill Park.
Now if we want to connect it with where it is, it would almost have to be
Susan Hill park. I don't know that I like that but people maybe would get
the idea that it's somewhere by Lake Susan.
Robinson: It's probably better than Outlot F.
Lash: Well I don't know. These are the ones that I wrote down. I saw
Sunset Trail there and I put Sunset Hill Park, Susan Hill Park, Flamingo
Hill Park, since Flamingo Road is right there. Hillside Park, South Hill
Park, West Hill Park, or West Susan Hill Park. I like the idea of Hill in
there just because it's got a hill and then as you'll see, my theme carries
through to the rest of them as we go on.
~. Schroers: Okay. Well would you like to record these Todd and we can maybe
just go with a show of hands and pick the most popular name and it will be
accomplished. Dave, did you have any?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 24
...,.;
Koubsky: Well I came close. I came up with Sunset Park which is almost
Sunset Hills Park and I think if we were going to name anyone park after
the development, it'd probably be Outlot G since they're slatted for hockey
rinks there, a ballpark, you know where most of the people would want to
know where it's at. So the best I came up with is a match of Sunset Hills
Park.
Schroers: Okay. Curt, did you have any further suggestions?
Robinson: No.
Schroers: Dawne?
Erhart: No. Sounds good to me.
Andrews: I came up with Flamingo Hill and the only reason why is, if
I were being directed to the park I wanted to pick a street or something
that would identify where it is to make it easier to find. I wanted to get
away from anything that used Lake Susan just so people wouldn't get
confused with Lake Susan Park. So I guess I would like it either Flamingo
Hill or Sunset Hill. Either one would be good to identify where it is.
Koubsky: Yeah, the idea with Flamingo too, the access to the park would be
off Flamingo Drive and not Sunset which might be confusing.
Lash: I just think Sunset sounds nicer.
...""
Andrews: Well Flamingo and Hill is kind of a...
Schroers: Was one of it, was it Flamingo Hills West or just Flamingo
Hills?
Andrews: Flamingo Hill.
Lash: Or Hillside. Then I had south and west just because in my mind
I picture these parks as being kind of south and west.
Schroers: Well you know we're calling this West because it's on the west
side of Lake Susan but it certainly isn't on the west side of Chanhassen so
we may be throwing out a geographical misnomer there by doing that.
Lash: Another thing we could try and tie it in with. I thought of this
for the third part, is Powers Boulevard. So we could, maybe if we wanted
to, we could figure out a way to put Powers in there and people would know.
Schroers: Flamingo Power Hill.
Lash: Power Hill Park.
Erhart: They're getting worse I think.
Hoffman: Power Hills is closer to G. Or H, excuse me.
Schroers: Todd, how about reading them back to us and we'll just have a
show of hands and the one that gets the most hands. ~
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ February 26, 1991 - Page 25
Lash: The only problem I have with the Flamingo and it makes sense because
that's the street that connects to it, is who in town is going to know
where Flamingo Drive is except for the people who live right there. Most
people are not going to know where Flamingo is so I don't think that's
going to be a tip off as to the location at all.
'Schroers: No, but if we went with Power Hill or...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Koubsky:
...community were going to slide. Is that a big hill?
Lash: There's not that many neat sliding hills.
Hoffman: This could be a, potentially could be. There's also a hill
incorporated as H but this one has the, really has the potential to have a
hill off of both sides from that focal point up there on top of the hill.
Koubsky: It could be Power Hill.
Hoffman: Flamingo Orive is going to be along street which extends all the
way down along the east edge of the park and then it does have the access
off of Flamingo Drive. Then Flamingo wil) curve around and hook back up to
Lake Susan Hills.
"
Schroers: In your activities calendars that you send out Todd for spring
and fall, do you have the parks and the different facilities in them listed
in that? Or if there's an event like sliding, would you list the park and
then people can call in and ask where the park is located if they don't
know.
Hoffman: Typically the summer brochures lists all the park locations and
all the amenities which are located there.
Schroers: Is that in like a graph form where you just have the names of
the parks on one and then the amenities and you just read across?
Hoffman: It has been put into that form and we had that form updated
currently. I'm looking at the number of the parks and the number of
recreational opportunities which we have among those parks has increased to
a point where we should have a good quality park index or park map and that
has been the goal in the back of my head for the past couple of years.
Waiting until the majority of these parks down in this area came on line
and received names so we could include those as part of it so it wouldn't
be outdated so quickly. So that is a potential project as well.
Schroers: What have we eliminated? We don't want to attach Lake Susan to
it. We don't want to attach West to it.
Robinson: Why not?
Schroers: Because it may be confusing with the main Lake Susan Park.
,....
Lash: What if we didn't put Lake in front of it? What if we just put
Susan?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 26
...."
Andrews: I still that people not familiar to the area, that could be
somewhat confusing.
Schroers: It is.
Lash: See I think that gives you a general idea of where it is right off
the bat.
Robinson: And this really will be a neighborhood park anyway right?
Hoffman: Yeah.
Robinson: So it will be the neighborhood people that would be interested
in it. I would imagine.
Schroers: Yeah. I would think it would too and we need to find a way to
eliminate some of these things so we can get down to picking a name or
we're going to be here for weeks. We've been through this before. We've
got to throw out some names, pick one and move on with it. Like Todd said
earlier, you drive through these little towns around and you see a park and
it has an unusual name and it may appear unusual to someone who hasn't
lived there, but people that live around there and are familiar with it,
it's very common. You adapt and get used to it.
Hoffman: It seems to me that we have eliminated most except Sunset Hill
and Flamingo Hill. Sunset Hill Park and Flamingo Hill Park.
...""
Koubksy: I guess I'd just like to leave Power Hill in there just because
this, in looking at this, it's got 70 or 80 feet of relief which is a
pretty big hill. If the kids want to go sliding, they can go up to Power
Hill.
Lash: That actually is kind of a cool name when you think of it. Like a
power sledding.
Schroers: Okay, in regards to outlot F here. Todd, call for a show of
hands on the three names.
Hoffman: Sunset Hill, all in favor. Flamingo Hill, all in favor. Power
Hill.
Schroers: Outlot F is now Power Hill Park.
Koubsky: Can I ask for clarification? Do we want PoweiS Hill or Power
Hill ?
Andrews:
I think Power.
Erhart:
there.
I'm just going along with what you recommend because you live over
If you like the sounds of it, that's fine with me.
Schroers: I think it's good. It's timely. It's a comtemporary name.
)
Erhart: They can power walk over there and then they can power slide.
...",
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~. February 26, 1991 - Page 27
Schroers: Okay, let's move on to Outlot G which is also Lake Susan Hills
West.
Lash: This is the one Todd said has a ridge in it so I sort of course
favor the something Ridge Park. Maybe it should be Power Ridge. Are we
stuck in a rut or what?
Schroers: We can combine some of our ideas. The first name could be
Sunset Ridge.
Lash: Heron Ridge. That's one of the streets there. Swan 'is over there.
It could be Swan Ridge or Swan Park. Or Ridge. He said there's a hill in
it. By Lake Drive, it could be Lake Ridge Park. Duck Ridge.
Schroers: Any other ideas? Suggestions?
Koubsky: Lake Susan Hills Park, Lake Drive Park and Audubon Park. Those
are my three. People do know where Audubon is. There will be a lot of
activity in there.
Andrews: How about Bird Ridge?
Robinson: Outlot G has a nice ring to it.
,....
Lash: G Ridge.
Schroers: Dawne or Curt, do you have any suggestions?
Lash: What did you say, Lake Drive?
Koubsky: Lake Drive Park.
Andrews: That's one I had as well. I came up with. Scarey isn't it?
Lash: We're all so original.
Schroers: How many names do you have Todd?
Hoffman: Heron Ridge, Hill Ridge, Lake Ridge, Sunset Ridge, Lake
Drive Park, Audubon Park, Bird Ridge.
Andrews: You can remove Bird Ridge. It sounds bad.
Schroers: Alright, if those are our suggestions. Let's go for a show of
hands one more time.
Lash: Can I just ask a question quick first here? What's the name, going
to be the main access road to it? Is it going to be Lake Drive West? Is
that how most people would get to it?
Koubsky: Right. The other one would be an easement through some of the
properties.
,...
Hoffman: There's the potential for the future access, I noted in here.
It's on your master park plan, the future Creek Drive which would come in
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 28
....",
off of Audubon to serve the industrial district which is coming in to the
south portion of the tracks there. That would be where they note the
parking area. Again, Creek Drive is not a name which has been designated.
It's just thrown into this diagram.
Koubsky: The designated name is Lake Drive West right? For that access or
that road through there?
Hoffman: For the pedestrian access?
Koubsky: No. For just the vehicular access.
Hoffman: Currently it's Creek Drive as shown.
Lash: It says proposed.
Hoffman: Oh, Lake Drive West? It's shown two different. Lake Drive West
and then future Creek Drive so it's shown two different ways.
Lash: How are we supposed to know which one it's going to end up being?
Hoffman: We don't. These are both proposed.
Lash: I wouldn't want to name it after one or the other and then have it
be.
Koubsky: should we wait to see what the road's called?
....",
Hoffman: If you choose to go that route. Again, that's just a proposed
road. It may not be developed for a few years.
Schroers: We have some names there that don't involve the roads that we
could pick from.
Hoffman: Any favorites?
Andrews: Sunset Ridge. I like that.
Schroers: Sunset Ridge I liked also. Let's eliminate-the ones on this one
that have road names unless anyone is opposed to that.
Andrews: What does that leave?
Erhart: Sunset.
Hoffman: I like that Larry. That leaves Sunset.
Lash: How about West Ridge?
Schroers: Well there again, that could be confusing geographically because
it's more in the center of the city and not in the western part.
Lash: Okay, Center Ridge.
Schroers: Center Ridge, there you go.
-"
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ February 26, 1991 - Page 29
Robinson: let's vote.
Hoffman: Sunset Ridge. There it is, unanimous.
Schroers: Outlot G is now Sunset Ridge Park.
Andrews: I've got one for Outlot H you guys are going to love. Sure fire
wi nner .
Schroers: Okay, well we're there. Jim, why don't you dive us into Outlot
H?
Andrews: Prairie Knoll is what I came up with.
lash: I like Knoll.
Andrews: And Todd said he was there and he said there was, you know he
mentioned this evening that they were there walking the property. There
was a very small little grassy spot at the top and a bird flew up out of
it, so Prairie Knoll. I came up with Wild Knoll and Dove Knoll too.
Lash: I had Dove Knoll. I also had Powers Knoll. South Powers Park.
Robinson: How did we get so many parks over there?
~ Hoffman: It was a planned unit development. lake Susan Hills West was a
PUD. They need to go up and beyond the normal requirements for this
development so extensive parkland was designated. To give you a little
visualization, if it helps in this one. Especially reinforcing Prairie
Knoll, if I'm so brave to do so. The park is not going to be developed to
a great deal. It's not going to look like a groomed park. There is the
trail. There is a play structure. There is the knoll but then the rest of
it is, it was originally prairie grass or grassland and some agricultural
and then it's a large flowing expanse down to an area which will not
contain houses but which is an open lowland area.
Erhart: So very natural?
Hoffman: Yeah, it's a very natural type area. So it does fit.
lash: I like that.
Robinson: Yep.
Schroers: Prairie Knoll?
Erhart: Prairie Knoll it is.
lash: I like the way we went with the Indian theme that we talked about
last time. None of them have anything to do with indians.
Schroers: Alright. Now we're on to Pheasant Hills parkland.
~
Andrews: Can we just vote?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26. 1991 - Page 30
......"
Hoffman: All those in favor of Pheasant Hills Park? There we go.
Andrews: I can't believe we got that done in less than 2 hours.
Lash: I just got a kick out of reading the Minutes from last time. You
could tell it was late at night.
Koubsky: You know through those Minutes though. Outlot E there is a creek
running through it also.
Lash: What's it called?
Koubsky: I don't know if that has a name.
Lash:
Creek.
That was what we talked about last time. We called it critter
Goose Creek. We had all kinds of names for it.
Schroers: Well that pretty much gets us through item 6. We don't really
need any motion on that.
Hoffman: A motion to recommend those. approve those names.
Lash: I make a motion that we approve those names.
Robinson: I second.
Lash moved. Robinson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend the following park names for Lake Susan Hills West: Outlot F.
Power Hill Park; outlot G. Sunset Ridge Park; Outlot H. Prairie Knoll Park;
and the Pheasant Hills parcel as pheasant Hills Park. All voted in favor
and the motion carried unanimously_
...."
Lash: Do you like them Todd? Or should we change them?
Hoffman: No. I certainly like them but my only thought was with all due
respect to both Dave and to the Commission. to take a look at Power Hill.
We had throwing in Powers Hill Park. Do we want to designate it as a power
hill for these people to have this image that this hill is an extensive
hill? And I'm questioning that because we don't know exactly what it's
going to be developed. There is the grade. the potential there for a
community sliding hill. Powers Road is very well know in town and the hill
is probably the most distinct hill off of Powers Road so either Power Hill
or Powers Hill Park is. they're both. We tossed them around but I have no
objection at all to Power Hill. Just for a discussion.
Lash: Powers would lead people to identify where it is a little bit more
than what it is. But I think Power Hill is easier to say.
Schroers: I think Power Hill is a catchier name for the park.
Erhart: As long as when they grade they don't make it into a little mole
hill.
....",
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~. February 26, 1991 - Page 31
.I"""
;"".
AMENDMENT TO MOTION ESTABLISHING PARK AND TRAIL DEDICATION FEE SCHEDULE -
LAKE RILEY HILLS.
Hoffman: As you may recall, those commissioners that were present last
August and September, one of the few site plan reviews for development that
we've seen in 1990 or 1991 to date, came through being the Lake Riley Hills
development which on the northwest side of Riley lake. Being John
Klingelhutz was the applicant. At that time it was for about 75 homes on a
fairly large site. Medium density type living. We did designate a park
site initially to the north of a wetland. The map should help bring back
your memory. Initially we looked for parkland in this area to the north of
the wetland. A couple of situations that came into play is that the
developer did not want to forfeit those lots because of the sight lines to
Lake Riley from the back, rear yards of those lots. As well, we had to
agree with that to some degree because of the grades in that particular
area don't meet with active park uses per se. So the Commission took a
look at this at a second meeting and identified this particular area as
it's centrally located. The grade is there so it's really basically flat.
There's no grade to that as it exist and with the sidewalks being proposed
on North Road and West Road, access to and from that particular location
was very good. For strollers, bikes, children walking, that type of thing.
So what was recommended at that time is that in lieu of trail fees, they
construct a sidewalk along North Road, along the West Road and then leave
us with a trail easement along Lyman Blvd. so in the future when other
trail easements are required in that area, we could get this neighborhood
down a trail system into the Bandimere Community Park. Then these lots,
24, 25, 26, and 21, 22, 23 were designated as the park location. That was
passed up to the, that recommendation was passed up to the Council and then
this development lay dormant for the past approximately 6 months.
Conditions and the reasoning for that is the developer along with the
engineer...taking a look. These conditions of approval that we imposed on
them along with conditions of approval which the Planning Commission
imposed on them, they needed to take some time to go back and take a look
at this. What they've come up with and was the new preliminary plat dated
January 19, 1991 .is shown on this bottom configuration. As you can see,
it's basically unchanged. They did change the area down around the lake
but including the proposed new Lyman right-of-way for the road improvements
which will potentially be taking place in the future there, Lyman is going
to be classified as a minor arterial which means that the additional
right-of-way for the expansion and upgrade of the road and also to
incorporate this 45 mph curve in this area. So all the changes to the lot
configuration are basically cosmetic. They did come back with a slightly
down graded or down sized park location. However, it still fits into the
scheme, the land which we need in this particular instance to fulfill the
needs of that development. As it is shown, Outlot B contains 82,592 square
feet or just under 2 acres of parkland. This particular location was just
over 2 acres of parkland. The dark line shown in this area designates this
new border so as you can see, what was recommended and what was actually
dedicated to the city in this particular plan is very close. The only
recommendation is, since they have downgraded the size of the park, we can
increase our fees slightly. However, this proposal also reduced the number
of lots so the park requirement, as far as the number of people which this
development will eventually hold, also came down slightly. There's still a
difference I believe between $90.00 per lot for additional park fee over
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 32
....""
and above the park dedication in the first proposal up to $125.00 per lot
with the dedicated park as well in the second...
Lash: How many lots was it before?
Hoffman: 75. It's 75 down to 68. Basically that's the reduction of lot
sizes per lot.
Koubsky: What would be slated for Outlot E there on the south side?
Hoffman: Outlot E, it's recommended from the Planning Commission, that
currently exists as kind of an orphan outlot which would be difficult to
maintain and so it would be combined as part of Lot 1 as one lot.
Schroers: Does staff feel that we're really glvlng up anything significant
by changing? It doesn't appear to me that we're really losing anything.
Hoffman: No. As a matter of fact, discussion in the past has also talked
about that we should always try to maximize our, what we take for land and
then...the park fees because then we generate no dollars to support this
parkland so in this particular instance, 68 lots at $125.00 would generate.
Andrews: $8,500.00.
Hoffman: There we go, $8,500.00. Thank you. For development of that
park. And again, there's not been any layout of the park configuration but
it's not a large park. Only 2 acres of an open playfield. Possibly a hard ~
court surface for basketball. That type of thing and play area...
Lash: So are you saying that all of the property there is useable?
Hoffman: Correct.
Lash: We're not going to have a holding pond in the middle of it?
Hoffman: It's useable minus the frontage or where the sidewalks which
we're recommending be constructed on the south side of the...and the east
side of West Road.
Lash: My initial reaction was that this was pretty small and I think was
the plan that we looked at last year and we wanted to have like 3 acres
useable. Wasn't it this plan? And then we kind of ended up cutting back
and cutting it down to 2.26 or whatever it was and said boy. But this is
really getting small and now all of a sudden we're down under that even.
But if you think that's big enough. I think it seems kind of small for 68
homes. I don't know how big the lots are. Now if they're pretty good
sized lots where people are going to be able to do things in their own
yards.
Andrews: That's quite a bit of space. That 2 acres gives you enough room
for a soccer field and tennis courts and a baseball diamond could share
with the soccer. I mean you've got quite a bit there. If it's a flat
piece of land, you can get a lot on there.
Erhart: How big are the lots?
-'"
,....
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 33
Hoffman: The lots, the median size.
Robinson: Well it's 68 lots on 78 acres so pretty good size.
Hoffman: 2.2 lots per acre or an average square footage is somewhere in
the neighborhood of 18,000 to 22,000.
Schroers: In order to really gain an advantage in size there, we would
have to ask for two additional adjoining lots there and I doubt seriously
whether we could coerce the developer into that:
Erhart: I think that's sufficient lot sizes that are 18,000 to 20,000.
Hoffman: And to give you an idea, to give the entire commission an idea,
this frontage is 342 feet approximately. The bottom is a total of 220 feet
and the top would be a total of 273 feet. So 270 by 42...
Schroers: Well if there are no additional concerns, I would be ready to
move that we recommend to the Council to accept the amendment as proposed
here.
Koubsky: I'd second that.
Hoffman: Again, as noted in the report, we needed to rescind the previous
~ motion which is made on September 25, 1990 and then make the new motion.
Schroers: Okay, I will move to rescind the previous motion.
Andrews: I'd like you to clarify the motion so that we're dealing both
with the parkland and the park fee.
Schroers: Just read it off. Okay, is there a second to rescinding the
first motion?
Erhart: Yes. I'll second it.
Schroers moved. Erhart seconded to rescind the motion made on September 25.
1990 by the Park and Recreation Commission regarding park and trail
dedication fees for Lake Riley Hills. All voted in favor and the motion
carried unanimously.
Schroers: Okay, now the new motion. I'll move that the Park and Rec
Commission recommends that the City Council require Outlot B to be
dedicated as parkland. As a part of this dedication, the applicant will
prepare the site according to the grading plan provided by the City.
Furthermore, recommend that the applicant construct a 5 foot wide concrete
sidewalk along the boulevard area on the south side of the proposed North
Road and east side of the West Road. In return for these requirements, the
applicant will receive a $375.00 credit on park dedication fees per lot and
100% credit on trail dedication fees. The remaining $125.00 park fee per
lot is to be paid at the time of the building permit application.
~ Robinson: I'll second that.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 34
....,I
schroers moved, Robinson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend that the Park and Rec Commission recommends that the City Council
require Outlot B to be dedicated as parkland. As a part of this
dedication, the applicant will prepare the site according to the grading
plan provided by the City. Furthermore, recommend that the applicant
construct a 5 foot wide concrete sidewalk along the boulevard area on the
south side of the proposed North Road and east side of the West Road. In
return for these requirements, the applicant will receive a $375.00 credit
on park dedication fees per lot and 100~ credit on trail dedication fees.
The remaining $125.00 park fee per lot is to be paid at the time of the
building permit application. All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously.
Hoffman: And again as noted, due to time constraints, this item, the
preliminary plat was reviewed by City Council at last night's Council
meeting. That particular, those conditions of approval from the Park and
Rec were in that report but were contingent upon your approval tonight.
Schroers: Okay, good.
CITY CENTER PARK PLAYGROUND ADVISORY COMMITTEE.
_Hoffman: The $40,000.00 which we all know is going to be expended on the
play equipment at the school site is a substantial commitment on the City's
part to improve the play structure and the play apparatus and the ~
experience in which both the school kids and then the after hour
participants at that site can use. In reviewing that and designing that
playground, it's a very detailed instance in that there is equipment
currently there. Some of those pieces are unsafe. Some of them can be
uplifted and incorporated back into the new play structure. Those types of
things need to be talked about. There are some drainage problems with the
site as it currently exist. Those things need to be reviewed. I did meet
with the Chanhassen APT, the full board as noted on February 11th. We
discussed both this improvement program and then the handicapped accessible
playground which is being worked on to the north. At the conclusion of
that meeting, it was felt that the best way to handle this is not to work
with the full board of the Chanhassen Park and Recreation Commission and
the full board of the Chan APT but to have an advisory group made up of
members of both those groups and then staff and work through this
improvement for the...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Schroers: ...time for this project.
Robinson: I think Wendy would be good.
Lash: I thought Wendy and Larry would be a good combo.
Erhart: And I thought Jan would make a real good.
Lash: And originally, I'll be honest, I looked at' this and right away
I thought oh yeah, yeah. I'll do that. I'd like to do that but I'm going ~
to be starting school, night school and that starts the end of March and
~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 35
that's two nights a week that I'll be gone and I just, I hate to over
extend myself. It isn't that I'm not interested. I really am still even
tempted to do it but I'm just afraid if I do that, I'm not going to do
justice to anything and I don't like to do that. But Larry, I think you
have good input as far as maintenance and survival of equipment and things
like that. I don't want to push you into something but I really think you
bring some expertise that other people don't know. And I think Wendy does
too being a PE teacher.
Koubsky: She's not here either.
Lash: Elect her whether she's here or not? That's sort of the punishment
for not showing up.
schroers: Todd, do you have any idea what days of the week these meetings
are going to be scheduled?
Hoffman: No. I haven't designated a schedule as of yet. Once all people
on the committee are named, then I would work with those folks and try to
determine which nights would work best for them and layout a schedule so
all parties involved would have that specific schedule between now and
completion date. It is one of those projects where there is a beginning
and an end. It's not an ongoing thing that's going to last approximately 2
to 3 months to 6 months before the final completion date so at least it has
a light at the end of the project.
JIll""'"
Schroers: Well I think that there is some obligation and responsibility
that goes along with these positions and I think it's not unreasonable to
do a little bartering. I think I would be interested in volunteering for
this position and maybe in lieu of some of the spring clean-up and the 4th
of July. If someone else would be willing to pick up some slack there,
I'll do this one.
Robinson: That sounds fair.
Schroers: Okay, you can mark me down for it.
Lash: Okay, I'll rephrase my thinking. If no one else from the Commission
has an interest, I will do it if there's no severe penalties if I don't
make it to every single meeting.
Hoffman: Okay. Would the Commission like me to approach Wendy?
Robinson: Yes.
Lash: And if she can't do it, if she's too busy or whatever, if I'm the
only one left, then I'll do it.
Schroers: And at this point in time, since there is going to be a special
committee on that, is there really anything here that we need to consider
or do we want to look at this again after the committee's had a chance to
~ work with it?
Hoffman: That's the correct manner in which to approach it.
Paik and Rec Commission Meeting
FebiuaiY 26, 1991 - Page 36
,-*'
Lash: I do think some of these steps, youi 10 helpful steps heie have
alieady basically been taken caie of as fai as site and all of those
things. That's alieady all.
Hoffman: Yeah, this was piovided fOi potential peisons who weie going to
get involved to take a look at things that weie going to be discussed.
These do not have to be discussed this evening.
Schioeis: Okay, so then this doesn't take any fUithei action at this time.
Let's just move iight on to item 9.
PARK AND RECREATION AFTER HOURS INFORMATION PHONE LINE.
Ruegemei: With Chanhassen's population giowing, ceitainly the iecieation
population will giow also and with the ongoing population inciease, it
seemed ieal impoitant to open as many channels of communication as possible
to ielay the infoimation onto OUi constituents. It seemed ieal impoitant
to, since City Hall does close at 4:30 and people do, some people don't
have time to give a call dUiing OUi iegulai business houis, to offei this
seivice to the Chanhassen iesidents as fai as getting infoimation aftei
iegulai business houis. With this infoimation line being available fOi
such as iainy Oi cloudy days to get up to date softball information.
Possible, for program infoimation. What time, just specific information
, that people ,could call this information line and get information. Listed
, below are diffeient companies. Those aie just for your information. ~
...contact different services and different types of businesses. The
cheapest that I found seemed to be the voice mail types of systems. That
involved Minnesota Comm Paging, Aii Signal and American Paging with varied
of seconds and in greeting the message and ietention of the messages.
There's the information listed and piice per month as fai as a monthly
chaige and installation. Just in other communities, this type of phone
system, the infoimational line has seemed to wOik to the benefit of the
Park and Rec Departments just in relaying information onto the residents of
that community. It would ieinfoice a lot of doubt. You know people
calling as far as is the game going to be played tonight Oi is the piogram
going to happen. I think it would be a real kind of a ielief if people
could call. I think that would be a lot of people at ease. Also it would
save on staff time answering these types of phone calls. I'm pretty much
guaianteed on a rainy day at 3:00 on you'ie going to be answeiing a ton of
phone calls on iain outs. As fai as if they do, most the time the
secietaiial staff do screen these calls so it isn't relayed on to us but
there aie situations that we do answer these types of calls.
Andrews: I have a question. Does that American Paging system give you the
ability to change the message after hours heie at City Hall?
Ruegemer: This type of system, the voice message system wouldn't be at
this location. It would be a different location and you'd have the
capability of, you're given a specific phone numbei where you can call and
change the message at'any time or if you wanted to call in. Say if
somebody left a message of any kind, you could call your ceitain phone
number and retain those messages if you wished to do so.
-'"
~. Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 37
Schroers: Like you said on a rainy day, all the calls are going to come in
at 3:00 and after. Does this handle one call at a time or can it handle a
number of calls at one time?
Ruegemer: It would be, I guess I'm not really sure on that but I know it
does. It's different from like a recording where it has that capability
of, I guess I'm not really sure if it's goes. It isn't like a recorder
system. It's different. I guess I'd have to check on that.
Hoffman: My initial reaction, one call answered at a time.
Schroers: Probably but if the message is only 20 seconds or 30 seconds, it
can handle a lot of calls.
Hoffman: I don't think any of these systems, there's pros and cons to all
of them but I don't think any of them have the capability of answering more
than one at a time.
Schroers: I guess my idea is that $5.00 per month with no installation
charge, you can't hardly go wrong.
Lash: I think this a great idea but the complete success will be in how
well publicized the number is so you'd have to.
,....
Ruegemer: It is something that we can work too with this company. We
could work on a catchy digit phone like 644-PLAY or 644-INFO.
Lash: Todd.
Ruegemer: Just something that would be easily identifiable.
Lash: ASK-TODD. See if you can get that.
Ruegemer: And that would be publicized as well as the softball meetings
coming up.
Hoffman: And again, I am just as concerned that once the product that we
do purchase, that it is maintained for a number of years. We don't want to
be switching this thing. This is one of those things that once people get
used to using it and you switch it on them, they're going to be awfully
upset so we want to be confident that the service that we do go with is
going to meet our needs and meet our needs in the future.
Schroers: I guess the question I would have in regard to that is the
cheapest system that is offered here, is that going to be a reliable
system. Is that something we will be able to count on.
Ruegemer: I believe it is. American Paging has been in business for a
number of years.
Andrews: I sure they offer upgrade systems too for a higher volume.
,....
Ruegemer: Just for your, the retention. Currently going through like a
software package and currently they have a 9 day retention on all their
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 38
....""
messages. It isn't a 24 hour and that will be for probably over a year now
that you caD have a 9 day retention on the messages left.
Schroers: Okay, sounds good to me. Is anyone interested in a motion?
Robinson: I make a motion that we recommend to City Council to implement
the after hours information phone line for this spring and summer's
activities and to accept the quote of $5.00 per month from American Paging
Corporation.
Lash: Second.
Robinson moved, Lash seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to approve implementing an after hours information phone line for
this spring and summer's activities and to accept the quote of $5.00 per
month from American Paging Corporation. All voted in favor and the motion
carried unanimously. ~
Lash: will this just be spring and summer?
Ruegemer: It doesn't have to be.
Hoffman: No. It should be around.
AUTHORIZE CONTRACT. 4TH OF JULY FIREWORKS.
...."
Robinson: I make a motion that we accept it.
Andrews: I've got a comment. Last year I attended the fireworks and we
were in the recommended area for viewing and I mentioned last summer to
Todd, I remember this. About debris coming down and some of it fairly
large dropping on my face and head and some of my kids and some of it was
dangerous to eyes. So I guess I don't have a problem with the company that
did the fireworks but I think we certainly have to look at providing more
distance between the fireworks and the crowd. It was not adequate last
year and it was dangerous and somebody could have easily been injured and
we could have had a multi ~illion dollar lawsuit situation very easily.
Hoffman: In reviewing this item, I did recall your comment at a previous
commission meeting and we will move that back to a greater distance.
However we do, that night the wind happened to be coming strongly that
direction. We had the balloon released earlier, it went straight up the
beach and straight that way ~o the wind was against us but we should take
that into consideration. And as a note of interest, there was a, not a
serious eye injury but a person, actually city staff person who had a
fragment of that land in their eye and had some 'medical attention. They
had to flush that and remove it. Point well taken.
Andrews: But other than that, I thought the fireworks that were put on
last year were outstanding. They were really great.
Robinson: We have Banner every year it seems like.
now that Banner has done it for us?
How many years 'is this
....,I
~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 39
Hoffman: Back at the inception of the current tradition which takes you
back 6 years.
Schroers:
the motion.
So it basically should be just a formality for us.
Is there a second?
Curt made
Lash: Second.
Robinson moved, Lash seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to accept Banner Firework's bid of $5,190.00 to perform at the
4th of July Celebration. All voted in favor and the motion carried
unanimously.
COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS: None.
ADMINISTRATIVE PACKET:
Schroers: Anything of special interest there?
Robinson: Just a comment that I think that's neat, the articles you
included. You know we've tried distributing the whole booklets to us and
we'd never look at them so this way we got the appropriate pieces of
information that would be of interest to us. I think that's the way to do
that.
,....
Schroers: Okay, did everyone get a chance to see that there is a notice of
a special meeting for March 12th?
Lash: And Tuesday, April 9th.
Schroers: And Tuesday, April 9th, right.
Hoffman: Yeah, one item of importance in the Administrative Packet is the
first item. Or the jointly scheduled Public Safety/Park and Recreation
Commission meeting for April 9th. If you have any specific concerns,
obviously we will be discussing such things as recreational vehicles, be it
Jet skis, snowmobiles, ATV's, those types of things. But if_there is
anything specific which you would like to see placed on the agenda, Scott
Harr and myself will be making that agenda up so prior to that meeting you
have some.
Andrews: Some time back we talked about vandalism problems at Lake Susan
in particular. I know that was something that sort of triggered this
meeting and I'm sure that wants to be included as to what the Public Safety
officers and what the park commission and park facilities, how they're
working together on that so that will be discussed too.
,......
Lash: I guess I have one comment on the South Lotus Lake Boat Access saga
here. I don't know if anybody else feels this way but I felt a little like
we were lacking something on our part that this went to Council level and
then was reviewed and sent back for more work and a lot of money was cut
from it. I sort of feel like we maybe didn't do our whole job on it or
something. I think that's the kind of stuff we're supposed to be doing and
I know I felt kind of lackadaisical there on it but I don't know what we
can do about that.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 40
.....",
Hoffman: That's a good point that Jan brings about. I felt the same way.
This is a project that goes back quite a ways. Prior to Gary Warren's
initial time. He has since left. He initiated the project out of the
engineering department to address drainage problems and erosion problems
which are basically engineering problems occurring at a park site. He
worked to some degree with Lori at that time and both of those particular
department heads left the employment of the city and then the project fell
into my lap one day when somebody asked how are we going to pay for it. Up
into that point the Park Commission, nor myself, had been familiar with it
so we were into the timeframe where we had to get this thing approved and
on line so we can have the work completed in 1991. Then this action which
is outlined here in the adminstrative packet took place and again, I felt
the same way as Jan did. That we were somehow, we were left out a little
but not anybody was intentionally trying to do that. It was Just the
particular circumstances surrounding this improvement project.
Lash: I guess I just feel like these things, by the time they hit Council
and have gone through us and we did spend a great deal of time talking
about it and picking it apart but maybe we're just not knowledgeable enough
in the cost of different things and the different options that are
available to us to do that. I know I'm not qualified to do that and yet it
still makes me uncomfortable and maybe that's why I'm uncomfortable is
because I know I'm not knowledgeable enough or qualified enough and I
wonder why I'm here. I think it should be as lean and as good as it can
get by the time we send it to Council and I feel kind of embarrassed that
it was so easily noticed at the Council level and that we missed it. ~
Schroers: We can spend more time on it but Scott was here to address our
concerns and try to explain things from the engineering point of view and I
felt that he did fairly well on that. I don't think we're expected as Park
and Rec commissioners to handle engineering chores really.
Lash: Do you think if we, I don't feel like we should have to say to
whoever's here, well now is this as cheap as you can get? I mean that
seems like.
Andrews: That was the question we didn't ask though.
Lash: Yeah. And do we need to ask that every time and if we do need to
ask it, how do we do it without sounding so crude about it and cheap?
Schroers: Contemporary government rhertoric is, is this cost efficient.
Lash: Well and they they're going to say yes I suppose.
Hoffman: The specific concerns which he addressed were again, the
engineering aspects but then also getting back to that, the park never was
completed in the apperance which it should be so there was some aesthetic
concerns taken into consideration as well. The cuts were made in the
boulder wall reducing it from a boulder wall, field stone type look to a
rip rap look which is, and then taking off the aggregate or the exposed
aggregate off of the drainage structures which are going to be located in
that lower pond and just having them blank concrete. So the reduction in
cost takes you from an aggregate, from a fieldstone wall with an exposed ~~
aggregate cover on the drainage system to a limestone red rip rap type of
~. Park and Rec Commission Meeting
February 26, 1991 - Page 41
look to a bare concrete. So the reduction in cost you know, it affects
your appearance but not necessarily the length of the livelihood of the
improvement or the efficiency which it works.
Tom Workman: I think the cost cutting and pinching has become competition
by Council. I too was a little nervous about using the rip rap versus the
field stone on that site until I talked to some people in that neighborhood
and they said, you get down there and you sit down there, what do you do
down there? There's really not people hanging around down there so I guess
it really doesn't matter if it saves $7,000.00-$5,000.00 to do it. But
it's become such a competition on the Council to cut and save and be cheap
and we love it. We're cheap. It's not fun because I'd just as soon spend
a lot of money. I think I look like a spending liberal on this Council. I
mean it's reached unbelieveable proportions, which I think is good because
I think there's a lot of fat but I think that's what people are trying to
do on the Council. Who can save the most amount of money. It can get out
of hand sometimes. I don't know that we have any special insight. I think
we're just cheap.
Lash: Yeah well I think I'm cheap too.
Tom Workman: In the good sense.
""',
Andrews: You're frugal.
Lash: That's why you're there. We like it.
Hoffman: Just on the special meeting. One other item that came about at
the site plan review. An addition which is adjacent to the new Pheasant
Hills Park, I'll bring it to you at that meeting included with the Lake
Ann Park. It's a straight forward subdivision. We'll take the fees
obviously_ We don't need any additional land when we're adjacent to that
11.67 acre site at Pheasant Hills. But it does affect somewhat the
abutting property there so just so you can take a look at it. We'll bring
that to the Commission that day as well.
Robinson moved, Lash seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9=55 p.m..
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Recreation Coordinator
Prepared by Nann Opheim
.,...