PRC 1991 04 09
,....,.
CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION
SPECIAL MEETING
APRIL 9, 1991
Chairman Schroers called the meeting to order at 8:50 p.m..
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Andrews, Dawne Erhart, Curt Robinson, Larry Schroers,
Dave Koubsky, and Jan Lash
MEMBERS ABSENT: Wendy Pemrick
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Coordinator; Jerry
Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor; and Mark Koegler, Van Doren-Hazard-
Stallings
LAKE ANN PARK COMMUNITY PICNIC/RECREATION SHELTER.
,......
Hoffman: Thank you Larry. This is the second of two meetings. Basically
we want to keep it somewhat informal as a work session by the Commission.
The initial meeting discussing this item...recommendations about design
mechanisms and overall maintainability and those types of issues were
brought up by the Park and Recreation Commission. Those in turn were noted
and brought back to Mark and the folks at Van Doren-Hazard-Stallings to go
ahead and incorporate into the plan and the design scheme of this
particular building. So what you-have before you this evening represents
those changes as noted. Again as Mark explained in his brief, this is not
a final plan. It is not a blueprint. It does not include light switches.
The spigots which we talked about and those types of things but those have
been duly noted and will be incorporated in the final design. A couple
issues which we specifically should discuss tonight is the change in
railing design. There was concerns about the railing in that if a person
went up to the railing in the initial design, layout and looked over it,
they could see people directly below you and could lob bomb those people
pretty accurately because they can see them. As shown in the new layouts,
there's somewhat, giving some distance there so if a person walks up to
that railing and looks over, there's either the planter concept...
(There was audio trouble with the tape at this point in the discussion.)
Hoffman: ...Initial presentation would be made to the City Council. Some
firmer numbers from what were presented at the last meeting to the
Commission will be presented to the City Council for discussion but that by
no means will be the last time which the Park and Recreation Commission
will be able to evaluate and critique this plan either. I foresee it will
jog back and forth both at the Council level and Commission level a number
of times still until this thing is finally worked out in it's final form
where we can get on with the construction starting sometime in late summer
of 1991. With that, Mr. Koegler.
Mark Koegler: Todd covered probably most of what I needed to go through.
I want to highlight Just a couple more changes that have occurred based on
the Commission's comments last time around. Specifically the fireplace is
gone. As you recommended, we have retained the chimney as an architectural
~ feature and also as a functional feature. In that corner we'll replace the
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 2
....""
old fireplace with kind of a general cooking, counter space, electrical
outlet probably with a small sink area there as well. So if somebody has
some type of a cooktop or crock pot or something, and if there's any fumes
or smoke or whatever, literally can use a functional chimney. There was
relunctance to get rid of the chimney for a variety of reasons. Primarily
being aesthetics. That when you viewed the structure from the lake, that
was a big impact and we've even got in the back of our minds doing some
specialized rock work if budget ever permits with maybe City logo or
something as a part of that and it could be really an attractive feature.
So for now that's been retained. As Todd eluded to, we've offered two
sketches as to how to possibly alleviate the problem of people lobbing
things over the edge. The planter option was the first one that was put
.together and discussing that one, there was some concern about maintenance.
Plant materials and what that would mean for the public works people. As
an alternative then, there's that shed roof concept also which is kind of a
slight mansard that would kind of just come off the railing, if you will
and slope down and break the line of eye sight. That's really what we're
after. In the packets you've got a full sized sheet and then two 8 1/2 x
11 vertical sheets that showed you two different floor plan options for
that lower level. Quick notes on those. The overall amount of floor space
there remains essentially unchanged. There was kind of a split on the
commission last time with half of the group being in the camp basically
that we just don't want to give up space unless we absolutely have to. So
as of this point in time, we haven't given any space up as of yet. What we
have done is reconfigured that in response to some of the commission's
comments about doorways being down corridors and so forth. The first
scheme maintains the restrooms in the same configuration they were in ~
previously. The second concept, which is I think probably more workable,
as far as the females ar~ concerned, is more the Target Center approach.
It has larger additional stall in the women's area. Both of the restroom
areas, the stool areas have been enlarged to serve as kind of the
mini-dressing rooms that we talked about last time. And notice they do
have doors. Other than that, the food service rental configuration is
essentially the same as I mentioned. We have kept the amount of space
there. What this means in generalized round budget kind of thinking is we
pulled out the fireplace box which was an expensive item. We have put back
in some of the counter space. Some of the electrical. Some of the water
connections. We've retained the square footage on the lower level. The
net is we're right about where we were previously in terms of general king
of budget thinking. In talking to Todd and Don about that. I think the
philosophy was to kind of let's maintain that right now status and take
that onto the City Council to see what kind of reaction they have. So I'd
be certainly willing to address any questions that you have on this and I
assume the end result tonight is we'll be looking for some kind of
recommendation to go onto the Council tentatively on April 22nd. If
there's any questions I'd be glad to address them.
Robinson: Mark, how high is that upper level from the ground? About 10
feet? 8-10 feet it looks like.
Koegler: From which? Describe a little more to me where you're at.
Robinson: I guess the top of that planter.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 3
Koegler: Oh, from ground plane?
Robinson: Yeah. Probably 10-12 feet maybe.
Koegler: I'll scale that off. From that railing is going to be about 10
to 12 feet. From the top edge of the planter itself and then the railing
would sit above that or the railing would sit up above the little shed roof
portion also.
Lash: Mark, I think I've asked this before. I just want to double check.
It shows the two walkways coming out of the upper level.
Koegler: Yes.
Lash: One is going south right? Up to the top of the hill?
Koegler: Yes.
Lash: And then the other one is going east?
Koegler: One would be going south. The other would be going east.
Essentially the way it's configured now. They both would go back, kind of
up the hill if you will.
~ Lash: I gues~ what I was trying to think, or what I was trying to figure,
is it possible to have either the bathroom access on the same side as the
walk is coming out or have the walk on the other side? Is the terrain, is
it too bad?
Koegler: No.
Lash: Like if you wanted to get to the restrooms from the upstairs, it'd
be easier to take the walk. Just go down the walk and be on the lower
level than to have to go all the way around.
Koegler: They will, given the grade and the slope in that, there will be
stairs that still aren't shown on here that come down right off of one or
both of those walkways to get down there. That will be the only way to
transcend that slope without going back around. There will be another
handicapped access that will serve this building but it will be going back,
if you will, around the trees and coming back to the lower level.
Lash: So on the west side where the entrances are, we wouldn't be able to
ma ke . . .
Koegler: No.
Lash: And you can't have the bathroom access on the east side?
Koegler: We can take a look at switching that.
"....
Lash: I don't know if the grades of the land would accommodate that but it
would be more convenient for the people upstairs. But then it would be
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 4
...."
less convenient for the people from the beach.
Koegler: From the beach, yeah. It was positioned this way to provide the
closest access to the beach which we assumed would be the primary users.
Lash: Okay. The other thing, and maybe Larry you could answer this
better, do you think it would be handy for the maintenance guys to have
another door into the storage area that would be closer like right out into
this bathroom area so if they kept hoses or whatever in there, they could
just take them out there instead of having them go all the way through the
rental and service area?
Schroers: Which plan are you looking at?
Lash: I guess I'm looking at B. But both of them are that way. Where the
only access into the storage area is through the rental area.
Schroers: Well, I don't think you want maintenance guys accessing it
through the women's bathroom.
Lash: Well yeah, that's true. Kids are going to go in there... No, I'm
saying another door...just go straight in there with the hose instead of
having to carry it.
Schroers: You know that is a good point. Covenience is important both in
just in operating efficiency. Sometimes the cost involved with rearranging
the floor plan and adding a door wouldn't justify the few minutes that were
saved by having to go around. I guess that's something that Mark could
maybe tell us better in terms of numbers. What it might cost to have an
additional access to this storage area.
....",
Hoffman: Jan, I agree that that looks like a good idea. Just bring in
another door straight from the women's interest into the storage room. I
would anticipate that maintenance people would be doing their maintenance
first thing in the morning prior to the park. Prior to the food service
and the rental area being opened. That type of thing so that's one issue
which says that the need is still there but to a lesser extent.
Koubsky: One option on that floor plan might be to have that women's stall
labeled as number 7 as maybe cleaning storage area where it's listed now.
The storage area has to go through the rental and it has to go through the
food service so they'd be bringing cleaning material through the food area.
I had asked my wife, she seemed to think that the 3 bathrooms in the other
figure were plenty. The three toilets. That's a thought. Jan likes 4
but.
Lash: I like 5. I mean the Men have 5. If you count the two urinals.
Right and then 3 stalls. Who goes more often?
Robinson: Women have 3 sinks.
Lash: They wash their hands. I don't know. It just seems like little
girls and women and pregnant women and it seems like they're in line a lot
..",.,
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 5
longer than
the most, I
the women.
theory.
the men. You could put in more urinals. That's what men use
think. And take out a stall or maybe give one of the stalls to
I just don't think the women have too many stalls. The Target
Hoffman: That was the reasoning for re-evaluating. Going from Y to Z was
to accommodate that.
Koubsky: But the storage and food service question is a definite issue
yes?
Schroers: I also don't like the idea of having to take the cleaning
supplies through the food service and rental area.
Koegler: It would be easy to create a door opening into the women's
restroom.
Koubsky: Or into the lifeguard area.
Koegler: And then access from there. We'll take a look at that.
Koubsky: The lifeguard might also have supp~ies that he needs. First Aid
supplies or buoys or whatever. I'm not sure what's going to be out there.
.,,-..
Hoffman: Typically that room is going to, we'll attempt to keep it fairly
self-contained with our current status with the Minnetonka Community
Services, that will be their space. They will have equipment in that
location and cleaning of that room will fall back onto somewhat of their
responsibility but the overall maintenance will fall back onto us. I would
not foresee that they would need general access to the storage area and we
may not want that accessibility.
Schroers: And this just didn't take a major redesign.
Andrews: I guess to follow up on one of Jan's points. I would push for
probably more urinals in the men's bathroom and probably, I'm not sure what
types of styles you're choosing but I would ask that at least one be for
children. So it'd be lower to the floor. You might be able to knock out
that toilet area #3 and rearrange the sinks a little bit and have maybe 4
urinals. I would think they'd be easier to clean for one and they're
probably be used more than the stall. And have at least one set low for
children.
Koegler: Obviously at this point we haven't speced out anything as to what
they are but we always include lower mounted that will handle kids. What
is the feeling of how many stalls you want in the men's restroom? Is 2
plus 3 or 4 urinals, is that adequate?
Schroers: I would thlnk that 2 stalls would be enough.
Robinson: Yeah, I would say a couple more urinals at the price of another
stall .
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 6
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Schroers: We have a beach area that I have to believe, even after we have
this nice shelter here, is busier than Lake Ann is going to be and there
are two stalls there in the men's that seem to be pretty adequate. It
handles the numbers fairly well and there are 4 stalls in the ladies. It
seems to accommodate a lot of people.
Robinson: Back to one of Jan's comments. There is no inside stairway?
Koegler: Correct. The stairway connection will be exterior.
Robinson: I guess that's alright.
Schroers: How do you feel Mark about accessing the storage area from the
outside of the building? Just an exterior door?
Koegler: We could do that. It will require a reconfiguration again of
this lower level because right now that's into the hill. That side is
buried completely. That wall but it could be reconfigured to do that. Any
time we get another door opening, you get another security concern to the
exterior. So for now we've kind of limited those. I think certainly it
does need to be added to the restroom. It can be added to the exterior by
reconfiguring the footprint if that's your desire.
Schroers: Well, I don't know if it would be worth it to reconfigure the
whole thing just to make an outside access to the storage. But I'm a
little bit uncomfortable with having to access the ladies room in order to
get at the storage because there are going to be busy periods where you're
going to run out of supplies and have to add paper towels or toilet paper
or whatever the situation is and someone is going to have to be there to go
in and clean up a mess or a spill or something like that. If you're
fortunate enough to have both male and female employees, possibly you could
send in the appropriate person in.
....",
Lash: What if you were to extend the wall from the men's room and just
make this more of a hall and then have the door here that goes into the
women's and you could have a door there?
Koegler: We can do that very easily. The last concept, if you remember
last time around, had exactly that and the comment was that we've got this
corridor that we have to go down and we don't want a door at the end of the
corridor. But we can do that. That's a very functional approach.
Lash: I guess when I talked about having another access door to the
women's room, I meant another door so that when you didn't want or couldn't
go through the rental and food service area, you could access it that way
but that wouldn't be your number one. But you could take your cleaning
materials out when you're going to do the restrooms but that would...use
that door.
Koegler: Yeah. Putting the door back in that location where it was would
certainly solve that problem and you can cut a doorway right into the
storage room.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 7
Schroers: I like that idea personally.
Koubsky: I do too. I think a concern with the door which is now the men's
or proposed, is that people standing in line at the food service and on the
beach could see directly into the women's bathroom more.
Lash: Right, and that was the changing area and there was no door or
anything.
Koubsky: Where this at least it's out of public's eye.
Lash: There's a door there and then there's also a door to the stall
that's straight in.
Koubsky: Then if need be, that allows them an area to start their line.
Out of sight.
Andrews: Protected from the elements.
Koubsky: Well that's right and it would be covered.
Hoffman: If need be there Mark, for the privacy, issue a little wall?
Koegler: Yeah, we can look at that. Sure.
,....
Hoffman: Into the men's, if you'd opened the door you'd be facing the
concrete wall...
Schroers: Mark, where would the plumbing be accessed for maintenance and
seasonal draining of the system and that sort of thing?
Koegler: I can't really answer that right now; There's a chase shown
between the sinks and the urinals, along that wall. There would be one
central point as part of the plans where the system could be drained. But
I can't tell you exacly where that is right now because we'll be moving a
few things now anyway.
Schroers: Okay. I have some personal experience with that in that we have
had a couple of situations where that hasn't really been much consideration
and we had to tear walls out to get at plumbing in order to drain it so it
didn't freeze and break the pipes in the wintertime. So it sure would be
nice if the system was set up to have one drain point and you could hook an
airhose on one end and just blow it out and have it be taken care of. But
my personal experience is that the valves all have to be taken apart and
they have to have anti-freeze put in them and all that sort of thing and
there's a need for a work space in order to do that.
Hoffman: It's your opinion Larry that the space, that chase should be wide
enough for a person to actually access it and there should be an access...?
Schroers: To access it and to be able to use a pipe wrench.
~ Hoffman: In that area inbetween.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 8
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Schroers: We have a space. You know Doug Mitchell. Is this on the
record?
Hoffman: Yes.
Schroers: Well, we have a person that is very thin and small and the
access point is about 14 inches wide and trying to get your body in there
and work with a wrench besides, I mean it's practically impossible. In an
emergency, broken plumbing or something like that, it'd be a real disaster.
Andrews: I have a question about the food service area. That is, is there
a plan to bring water into that area? It's not shown there.
Koegler: Yes. The intent is to have water in that area for clean-up
purposes.
Andrews: Sinks?
Koegler: Yes.
Andrews: Yes. That's the intent.
Koegler: The food service that we've talked about is the packaged kind of
items but you certainly need the ability to clean counters and the spaces
and things and wash a few things here and there.
Andrews: Was the intent to have refrigeration ther~ on a seasonal basis? ~
Koegler: I would assume so. I mean I would assume you're going to sell
popsicles and things like that that will require that.
Hoffman: Those will be additional. Coolers, freezers, we'll certainly
want to take that into consideration in the design. What particular type
of product? What particular type of refrigerator or freezer we're going to
buy for the food we're going to be serving and then make the space
appropriate to be able to purchase those appliances and have them
installed.
Schroers: Will there be an ice maker?
Hoffman: Again, that's something yet to be decided. If you choose to, if
you think you'd like an ice maker.
Andrews: I just took a wild guess at what the square footage of that food
service area is. Probably around 200 square feet maybe? That's a
reasonable guess? We don't have room for everything we'd like to have
there. I'm sure of that. You talk about ice maker and refrigerator, sink
and food storage and pop storage and a cash register and room for somebody
to stand, that's about it. If that.
Schroers: Ice is a very, very popular thing to have in food service during
the summer. It also is space consuming and it tends to be kind of a high
maintenance item too.
--'
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 9
,
Hoffman: It depends on what your theory is on how you should serve your
pop. Should you be selling it out of a refrigerated can or by the cup with
ice out of a pop dispenser.
Lash: What did you have in mind?
Hoffman: I believe the previous meeting we talked about refrigerated cans.
Selling canned pop.
Schroers: I favor that idea also.
Lash: I would too.
Andrews: To have an adequate ice making system there would take up most
the space you have. So I agree.
Schroers: Is there going to, are the food items going to be stored in the
food service area? Or do you plan on using some of the storage, the larger
storage area for that?
Hoffman: The bulk of it would be stored in the food storage area but
crates or boxes of your packaged items would then be stored in the storage
shelf area within that storage room. As potentially would be canoe
paddles, that type of thing.
"
Koegler: Yeah. Storage right now is just identified as kind of a
generalized thing. It is intended to include all of the typical
maintenance products, the bulk items, life preservers or paddles or
whatever you can't conveniently have right next to a counter. Whatever
else needs to go in there. So right now it's kind of a catch all.
Schroers: There may be the need for a partition or shelving area or
something like that to separate the food items from the other things. I
don't know what the health code is as far as all the pre-packaged items but
I know they get pretty specific when you start to do any cooking.
Koegler: Yeah. As we get a little further into this, we'll need a little
better definition of what is to be sold. What type of products are
anticipated and then can react accordingly to provide proper storage.
Andrews: I've got a radical idea here. Just kind of came to me. The
storage area, if you were to somewhat shrink that and use the access door
as your first aid station and move the rental area all the way down to the
edge of the building and then put your storage area inbetween the rental
area and the food service area. That might create a useage flow that might
be a little more practical.
Hoffman: It has potential. Just off the top of my head, one conflict
there is that in times, weekday type of operation, I would foresee that
there's going to be one person manning both the food service and the rental
and then the flow for them to be able to move from one to the other is
impeded. It was pretty good until I thought of that.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 10
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Lash: When we were talking about this other storage access door, I think
that we still need to keep the one for the rental and food area if they're
going to be using that.
Koegler: Yeah.
Lash: Okay. I just wanted to make sure you didn't think we wanted to take
that out.
Hoffman: And again, I don't think tonight is too early a time to start
discussion about what items you would like to see served. If it is
packaged food? What is it? Candy bars, potato chips?
Lash: I guess I kind of just thought it would start out real small like
pop and maybe some chips.
Erhart: Stay away from things we would have to worry about a lot of health
regulations on.
Lash: Spoilage.
Robinson: Would you operate this with city employees or would you contract
it out?
Hoffman: Again, that's always brought up in this type of an application.
My intent at this time would be to operate it as a city employee type basis
but it could be contracted out. I'm not sure how attractive it's going to
be for some food service vendor to come in here and contract at this
particular location. We also want to have some control over that
employee's other duties within that park area. Informing the people who
are using the reservation upstairs. Serving those people as well as they
use that particular facility and helping out with other things on site.
But it could go either way. It's done both ways in the public sector.
....,,;
Lash: We could have some candy but I have visions of chocolate in the
refrigerator.
Andrews: It has to be durable, no refrigeration type stuff I think.
Lash: Yeah, and the other thing,. even though I think the popsicle and the
frozen treat ideas is fun, I think you have to worry about power outages.
If you have a power outage over there and the freezer's out all night and
everything melts. I don't know. Maybe those are just some things,
headaches you want to deal with.
Erhart: Maybe just keep it simple from the beginning and see how it goes.
Lash: See what people request. If they come up and ask that do you have
hot dogs or do you have this? I don't think we're ever going to get into
that but just get a feel for what people would like to see there.
Robinson: I'd prefer to contract it out and let somebody else.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 11
Andrews: The rental potential off of something this small, I don't think
would be that great.
Schroers: I think if you're going to get into a contract situation, it
would be someone that would want to get into hot dogs and hamburgers and
that kind of thing and that would get to more of a production than we're
looking for there I believe.
Hoffman: Typically a person who would contract this would be looking for a
revenue generating potential. Contracting, it goes from one extreme to the
other. You contract for vending machines or you contract for food service
such as Hyland Hills where you have a vendor in there serving that type of
food.
Andrews: Not this year.
Hoffman: Not this year? That was done by the Park?
Lash: Did you think of maybe just having vending machines or did they...
(There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.)
Lash: Then you don't have to hire anybody.
~ Andrews: ...the rental operation also. If you have that in there. I
think you still need a person there to watch the building, during the
summer especially.
Erhart: I think it could get vandalized real easily.
Lash: Yeah, that's true. You had one at the hockey rink. And that was
not good.
Hoffman: It had potential problems. I see that person really as a public
relations person as well. Relating with the public as they enter that.
Using the building. There's a person there overseeing the bathrooms.
During the middle of the day if we run out of paper towels, it's not going
to be a full time maintenance person getting called. It's going to be the
person on staff at this building doing that type of daily maintenance
routine.
Andrews: At Lake Phelan they have a park shelter where it's chips and it's
stable shelf items. They have a microwave that they'll do a hot dog for
you but they don't have any big grill or hamburger. If you want a hot dog,
they take it out of the refrigerator and put it in the microwave and that's
it. So that's very well received and it's a fairly small booth too so it
should be similar in size to this. It's very satisfactory to somebody
coming in on a hot day to just get a cold pop and a bag of chips. That's
a 11 you need.
Schroers: That's what I prefer to see. A couple different selections of
cold treats. Be it popsicles or ice cream sandwich or whatever and a
,,..... couple of different varieties of chips. Possibly pretzels or bagged
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 12
...."",
popcorn. Something of that variety. What I really would not want to see
is the candies that come individually wrapped in smal pieces. You buy some
of these little candied items that come in a wrapper and then inside the
wrapper each piece is individually wrapped and you end up with these itty
bitty pieces of paper allover everywhere. I think it would be nice to be
able to sell something that has a wrapping on it that is of the size where
somebody will say, well this is too big. I can't just throw it on the
ground. I need to go put it in the garbage can. Even gum. Gum has two
wrappings on it plus it gets stuck on everything. I definitely wouldn't
recommend selling gum or little small candies. Just stay with the larger
packaged items.
Lash: Your maintenance background is really showing here.
Schroers: You wouldn't believe what a hassle it is chasing little bitty
pieces of paper around the park on a windy day.
Erhart: That is a good point though Larry.
Koubsky: I like the thought of ice cream or something sold. And I also
like the thought of somebody there dispensing it. Not a vending machine.
It seems more personal, and we can employ somebody too. That's nice.
Hoffman: As stated in the request, that came from the Commission in taking
a look at what kind of dollars this can generate. Food service, it could
generate some money depending on how it goes over and how popular it is but
it is a public service. You'll definitely have to meet costs or we'll have
to re-evaluate it somehow but then as well, the rental areas is a public
service. It's not going to make money either but it's a recreational
service for our residents and park users and then the upstairs, you know
rental of the upstairs is where we're going to bring the dollars in for
this particular building.
....,;f'
Lash: Maybe what we'll want to do later on is evaluate the hours of
operation. I would think most typical work day, weekday mornings. Things
like that, there isn't going to be a high demand for any of those things
such as staff it during.
Hoffman: 11:00 to 6:00.
Lash: Well evenings though.
Hoffman: 11:00 to 8:007
Lash: When there's ball games going on, a lot of times kids will go down
to the beach. I don't know. But then weekends all day.
Robinson: I'd think we'd at least recover our costs here wouldn't we?
Hoffman: Yes.
Koubsky: I guess one thing Mark that's on one of the plans too and not on
the other is you do have a bench on one of them. I think for changing kids
......,;
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 13
or whatever, maybe a couple of small benches. If you can put them in and
have enough space to move around in each of the bathrooms. They're easy to
put kids shoes on.
Lash: That's a good idea.
Schroers: Well it looks like there is enough space in that handicapped
bathroom.
Koubsky: Put a bench in there.
Koegler: You're thinking though, it doesn't even have to be on a stall.
You're thinking of a space just in the bathroom somewhere that you know is
going to be dry that you can always put the kid up onto?
Koubsky: Right.
Schroers: Along the storage wall or somewhere.
Hoffman: Or else one of the Kolar Bear changing tables?
Koubsky: I don't know if you want changing tables but that's another
thing, it could actually be changing tables.
I""" Hoffman: Yeah, on that bench.
Lash: So put it in the Men's.
Koubsky: Put in both.
Hoffman: We did we want to address, concerning phone service? Again, I
thought about this. How many new lines we're going to be generating and
where they're going to be positioned? Is the lifeguard going to have a
separate phone line? Is the phone going to be located upstairs?
Downstairs? Those types of things.
Lash: The lifeguards have a phone already by the beach don't they?
Hoffman: Yeah, that phone line. Obviously since it's out in the open and
unprotected, it has continual problems. The lines are cut annually
including the phone within this enclosed buil~ing would be much more
desireable.
Erhart: I think from a safety standpoint they should definitely have their
own line and it should be something that is in working order.
Andrews: I don't think you need to do that to
which have much more traffic than this and you
often to be honest. I would think that all you
food service is on the phone, they're obviously
immediatley if you have an emergency situation.
do that.
be honest. I work in areas
don't need a phone that
need to do, if somebody at
going to get off
I don't think you need to
JI'"
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 14
....,,#
Hoffman: Currently the phone is connected, the phone at the entrance gate
house and then the phone down at the beach is one line. So if somebody
picks up a call at the gate house and they want to call 911, obviously they
just have to tell them to hang up and then they hang up. People at
Minnetonka Community Services get very upset quickly if that phone is not
in working condition. They do not feel comfortable working in this
isolated of a location without an access to 911.
Andrews: I think we definitely need a service line to the building and
perhaps a pay phone. At lesat one that can be reached and that doesn't
necessarily have to be on the inside either. Pay phones can be outside.
Lash: I guess what I felt is when you're going to be having teenagers and
younger people working in here and you have a telephone. There's a
potential for being on the phone when you're supposed to be doing.
Erhart: I do too and I was approaching it from a medical background.
Lash: Yeah. No, I agree we have to have a phone but if it was a pay
phone, you can dial 911 out of a pay phone without putting money into
it. But I think the closer to the beach to have it, I mean I like the
location of where it is now. If there'd be a way of fixing that because
that's any time you save getting to a phone is going to be fast.
Andrews: Do the lifeguards have radios?
Hoffman: No. They do get a radio when the phone isn't working. The .~
Carver County Deputies radio so they can then radio the deputies directly.
Schroers: I guess my suggestion on the telephones would be to have one
phone inside the building basically for emergencies and employee and staff
use and pay phone outside of the building for the general public. The
phone inside the building I would locate not in the food or rental area
where a young person is going to be all the time because you're exactly
right. That's when they're not busy, they're on the phone.
Erhart: It makes it too easy for them.
Schroers: So maybe putting the indoor phone in the entry area towards the
storage or someplace where it's just not convenience for employees to be
sitting, talking on the phone while they're supposed to be doing their job.
Hoffman: Does it make sense at all so both the rental, food service and
lifeguard, first aid people can reach the phone to put in a window
inbetween that counter and the lifeguard station. First aid station and
then the phone could then be in that space so you could access it from both
sides and as well you could talk to a person in that other portion of the
buildi ng.
schroers: Sounds like a workable.
Hoffman: Have a counter top deal where they can pass messages back and
forth. If a person makes a comment which needs to get to the first aid
...,
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 15
person, they can jot that down and kind of have a desk operation inbetween
the two.
Schroers: That's a good idea.
Lash: But then we have the phone where...
Schroers: Then the phone's accessible to the lifeguards who are on break
or to food service employees who aren't too busy.
Hoffman: Yeah, and it would police itself to a certain extent because a
rental, food service employee is not going to feel that they have the
exclusive use of that phone. If lifeguards are walking in and out and they
constantly see this person on the phone, it's going to bug them as well.
They'll let somebody know.
Schroers: And I would think from staff's point of view, who's ever
training and hiring these people would over emphasize the point that
they're not being paid to be spending time on the telephone. And to make a
point to check in once in a while and if that is the situation, to
reinforce it.
Hoffman: It's necessary to do that already at the gate attendant. You
call, whether you have a reason or not and it's busy for 10 minutes, a
~ drive to the park is well in order. Are there any other issues that you
can foresee?
Andrews: I have one more question. On the upper level, is that intended
to be, with outlets on the perimeter, for various uses?
Koegler: Electrical outlets?
Andrews: Yeah.
Koegler: We had talked in generalities that you certainly wanted outlets
in the area where there was going to be some food storage. Not really
storage but preparation, presentation, whatever. We had talked about the
possibility of some outlets and then there were concerns raised about
maintenance of those and locking of those and what's your feel? Do you
need outlets on the walls if there's outlets in the fireplace, the former
fireplace area? What would you plug into those?
Lash: How big is that area there? That corner? It looks like it's just
two little counters where you can plug things in.
Koegler: ...9 to 10 feet.
Andrews: Is there intended to be lighting up there or natural lighting
only?
,...
Koegler: I would assume there would have to be some kind of lighting in
addition to that.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 16
...,;
Andrews: I guess what I'm driving at here is, I've had this reoccuring
goal or idea that some sort of a boating program or sailing program might
become something that the City may want to do like what's done at Lake
Phelan in st. Paul is a very successful program. I guess I was thinking,
would there be something in the future where you might want to, in one of
the corners of the building here, have the ability maybe with some
temporary folding walls and some lighting and some outlets to hold a class,
like an evening sailing class in the upstairs and go down and use the lake?
We have the outlets and we have the lighting and We have temporary walls
can be added later when the budget allows. That's all you really need.
You typically only spend maybe 15 or 20 minutes at most in your classroom
and then you want to go down and use the water. So you don't need a first
rate expensive classroom to do that and if it's raining, typically you
cancel class anyway.
Koegler: What do you plug in? Projectors or something?
Andrews: Projectors is it. You usually have movies or tapes. Training
tapes of how to do first aid or sailing or boating.
Lash: Couldn't you plug them in over in this corner?
Andrews: I was just thinking if you wanted to be in a corner where you
could share that building space with other people that are using it at the
same time.
Hoffman: It's a valid idea. ~
Andrews: It's not a big deal. Just put a couple of all weather outlets in
there.
Hoffman: Staff discussion as well, Don in
What other types of uses are going to take
to be classes held at any time? Organized
than just a neighborhood or family picnic?
then how are We going to accommodate those
particular asked the question.
place up here? Is there going
activities a little more formal
If that is indeed the case,
types of people?
Andrews: The other question I had is, on the upper level with the
entrances, are those entrances that are going to be secured in the winter
or is this an open area, open to weather?
Koegler: It is, in all probability, an open area. It's got a fair over
hang on it but that raises another issue. The one of security in general
and I don't' know that that's been totally resolved. In conversations with
Todd and Don, I think leaning towards don't react to a problem until it
becomes a problem. If it becomes necessary to close those off, we've
looked at kind of an iron grate type of doorway that could either swing or
could slide along one of those parallel walls and close that opening off.
It would have to lock open and lock close. We had looked at creating those
as kind of a pocket door in the middle of that wall. The problem is then
when the door is closed, you've got a pocket that people throw all kinds of
junk into. Cans and bottles and things and it's very difficult to clean
out so we're recommend going with either one the mounts on the interior of
..""
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 17
the wall and slides or is on a hinge and swings. That's the only type of
door closure that's been talked about so far for those openings. There's
not been like an overhead garage door or something that would secure those
weather tight. There is really not anything in this upper level that could
be damaaged by a little bit of snow or something blowing in. It's all
concrete flooring and masonry.
Schroers: In the off season when it's cold, this type of an area isn't
much of an attractant because there's not real way to stay warm there so
even if kids are out horsing around, they don't tend to hand around long
enough to do much damage. We have open shelters that aren"t protected that
have cabinets and things and the only problem that I encountered in an
entire year was I found two kids running around up on the roof. They
stacked up a couple of picnic tables and managed to run around on the roof
but they didn't damage anything else.
Lash:
now.
That reminds me of one question I had on your little shed roof thing
It would be impossible for someone to climb up onto that wouldn't it?
Koegler: It will be designed to discourage. I would never say the
impossible but it certainly would have a slope on it that would be
something you'd look and say, ooh. I don't really want to do that because
it's too steep.
,..... Lash: I would say that. But would kids look at it the same way too?
Koegler: Well we talked about that and think it will be a deterrent to
anybody doing that but you never know.
Schroers: Real short and sweet on that, I definitely prefer the shed roof
design over the planters.
Koubsky: I do too but a concern I have with the shed roof is that's going
to be a very convenient place to put beverage bottles or cans and it might
be real easy to knock those off and then you've got a slide and basically
things are going over anyway. I don't know if the catch or some sort of a
guard in case something accidentally goes over, it doesn't end up on
somebody down below.
Lash: Maybe we could use electrical fence across there and barbwire.
Hoffman: Simple design, just make that railing so it is at a point so it
can't accommodate.
Koegler: Yeah, that's what I was going to point out. The section that's
on there is really not totally accurate because there is a railing that
sits on top of that cap piece so it's not a ledge there like this where
somebody would want to set a can because there will be a railing structure
there that won't let you do that.
Schroers: Another thing I see about the upper level is that we are going
to accommodate groups of up to 50 but that doesn't necessarily mean they
~ all have to be all in one group. What if there are two groups of 10 but
Park and Rec'Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 18
.....",
they're separate groups and they both want to do a little cooking or
picnicing? I think it would be nice to have that split up into two places.
Koegler: It's all a function of dollars.
Schroers: Maybe not as elaborate. I mean a fireplace thing, that looks
like a nice arrangement but I think that it would be nice to have in one
other location up there at least some outlets so we could accommodate two
smaller, separate groups at the same time.
Hoffman: The concept that Jan discussed at the last meeting with a
portable fold up shelf and then an outlet in each one of these opposite two
corners? Something of that nature?
Schroers: Yeah. Something like that that could accommodate.
Lash: There again, if those aren't expensive. I just don't think you can
ever have too many of those things. People are always going to use them.
Schroers: And also it should be looked at or noted that things that people
generally bring along to picnic, such as roasters and that sort of thing,
tend to have a high current draw so we have to look at service breakers
that are maybe 30 amp instead of 20 amp to keep from blowing the circuits.
Koubsky: Mark in that chimney ar.ea, was that power and water access for
those on each side?
-'
Koegler: No. The note there is indicating that they would be distributed
power would be presumably on each side. Water presumably would be on one
side at one location for some economy and the rest would be essentially
counters. Those are some of the details that ultimately we'll be bringing
back to you. How do you want this to look? How do you want this to work?
We're trying to get all the major pieces in now just from a cost
standpoint.
Koubsky: I also do like the, whatever that option's called.
Lash: The shed roof?
Koubsky: Yeah, the shed roof.
Lash: I did too. Now you have the roll-up door thing and that would be
secured?
Koegler: Right. That whole area would be secured.
Lash: Would that just be something that would be optional? A person would
rent this, they could then get the key for that or would it automatically
open?
Hoffman: I would think it would be keyed and then we'd go with the rental
and then we'd provide the key to that door.
....,I
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 19
Schroers: Basically the way this is, you've got this laid out, is that all
the cooking is going to be done under the roofline.
Koegler: We really haven't addressed, you know there was a lot of
discussion last time about grills and pulling them around on trucks or
mounting them in a location outside or whatever. This really only
addresses prepared food items that people bring in in roasters and crock
pots and those kinds of things. Those are what these counters accommodate.
I think it still needs to be determined what and how and where the
bar-be-queing type activities would occur in relation to this building.
Schroers: Okay. I guess my personal preference on that would be a poured
concrete area doesn't have to be much larger than to accommodate a grill
and a little cooking space outside of the roof line. My experience has
been that everyone that comes out to picnic is not necessarily an expert on
grilling and sometimes it looks like you've got a major fire going. They
get really smokey and if it's outside the roofline, at least the smoke can
escape and it won't be trapped in there. And some of those fires get
greasy and a smoke residue has grease in it and eventually that would tend
to build up on the inner roof.
Koubsky: With that too Larry, we might want to think about one by each
exit or entrance just to facilitate two different groups.
II""""
Schroers: Yeah.
areas outside of
each side of the
plan.
I think that would be plenty. If there were two slab
the roof line. One on each side of the building or one on
entrance. Whatever would fit most practically into the
Koegler: I should indicate that the next time you see this, you'll have
more site information than you have right now. Right now we're just
deali ng with concepts to the buildi ng and there wi 11 be site information so
we can definitively address these questions of stairways and grade and
where the best place is to locate these pads and those kind of things.
Schroers: Okay. But are you seeking this kind of information?
Koegler: Yes. As Todd said, we've been keeping a talley of all of the
little items. The water spigots. The outlets and things that will come
back into discussion later so any little thing that is a concern is
certainly valid to bring to our attention at this time because we will note
them and bring them back into the subsequent plans.
Lash: Would it seem like a logical thing to have the water spigots by the
concrete slabs where the grills are?
Schroers: Yeah"
Lash: For fire control and clean up.
Schroers: I don't want to speak for everyone here. If anyone thinks that
it's not a good idea, if they would rather see things kept underneath the
~. roof or whatever just speak up.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 20
......."
Lash: No. No. I think to encourage people to cook outside of this is the
route to go. It Just eliminates the maintenance as far as trying to keep.
Schroers: And besides that, it frees up the inside. Gives you a larger
area to show slides or what have you.
Erhart: Mark, we haven't reduced the cost at all have we?
Koegler: In these kinds of efforts, it's never easy to reduce the costs.
We still feel comfortable that we're at the position we were at a few weeks
ago with Option 2. Ultimately what it gets down to is what funding
resources are available, and I think the City Manager last time addressed
you and told you that there were various sources of money to be pulled
together. If there are cuts that have to be made, obviously this group
will be involved in that decision. Do we shrink some space. Do we remove
this? Do we remove that? That kind of remains to be seen.
Hoffman: I do feel that it is important at this time that the Commission,
you have some understanding from Don's discussion. In our Capital
Improvement Budget we budgeted $110,000.00 for this project for CIP share.
Obviously we are up and above that and the Mayor and the City Council are
aware of that to a certain degree. That we talked about this particular
goal item at last Saturday's goal session. I addressed basically the same
type of, some of the discussion we had here this evening. What we need to
expand upon is, is this building a firm desire of both the Park and
\ Recreation Commission and the City Council. If it is, the funding is
available. The Park Acquisition and Development fund reserve has ~
accumulated over the years. We have not taken on a project of this
magnitude or type since the Lake Susan Park shelter so it's somewhere in
the ballpark of $300,000.00 are sitting in the bank which, when I started
the budget process last year, I was not in the best position to do that, or
certainly accommodate it, but $110,000.00 was the figure which was in there
year after year so we just plugged it in. In future budgeting times, we'll
go ahead and have a better feel of what we're getting into prior to going
into that. If we had it to do allover again, we could have had
$210,000.00 in our CIP for this budget or $190,000.00 or $200,000.00. We
do not but the funding is available but I think it needs to be a clear
message from the Commission. If you want to spend this kind of money on
this building, that absolutely has to be spoken and sent up to the City
Council level because they're going to take a look at it. It is not
general tax dollars. It is park acquisition and development fees. It was
put there by park fee acquisition and it's therefor the improvement and
development of recreational facilities within our city. Do we want to
spend the money on this particular one?
Erhart: The only thing I'd say is if we are going to do it, that I'd like
to see it done nicely. I would be willing to otherwise wait but if the
money is available, we can get funding for it, let's do a first rate.
Robinson: I think it's just another very legitimate upgrade of Lake
Ann Park. We've added the fields a couple of years ago. That's always been
a real nice park and I think we've just got to keep upgrading it, which
we've done.
--'
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 21
Erhart: I don't want to cut any corners or do it cheaply.
Lash: It does have the potential of being a revenue earner.
Hoffman: Correct. A revenue generator. And there are many other benefits
L<Jhich, this is the granddad of the projects. It's br i ngi ng in the water.
It's bringing in the electricity. It's bringing in the phone. other
improvement projects to Lake Ann Park will garner from this particular
project. At some time it's identified that irrigating the fields is
desireable, the water is right there. When it is.desireable to put
bathrooms up at the softball field complex, the water is right there. The
electricity is right there. So this project is paying for many
improvements, portions of other improvements that will take place in Lake
Ann Park in the future as well.
Andrews: Tell me about the building again? Just to get back to that. The
door entrance from the rental area to the storage area I think should be
wide as possible and something of very heavy steel and I guess the reason
for that would be if we have to move refrigerators or other vending
equipment into that storage area for the winter, to make it really secure.
I guess I would feel like the service windows would be an area that vandals
could get through in the winter to steal equipment. If we were able to
move it into the interior secure area with no outdoor windows with a strong
steel door, we've got an area where we can store things safely over the
,.... L<Ji nter .
Koegler: The form of those window openings is yet to be determined also.
One of the things we've envisioned is literally the steel pull down over
head type of door closure on those too which would be relatively secure.
Andrews: Those invite some pretty enthusiastic people sometimes to try to
get through those.
Koegler: With a pry bar or something.
Andrews: Pry bars or sledge hammers. This is going to be a pretty remote
building in the winter.
Koegler: It is going to be one of those things that if somebody wants in
bad enough, they're going to get in because once they get into the inside,
then they're got cover to do whatever. We can look at that though.
Andrews: The other thing I wanted to get back to was, I do agree this will
become a certerpiece to the park and I also agree that if we're going to do
this, let's do it right or let's not do it.
Schroers: I feel that this is in line with current trends. That's taking
place in the industry. We tend to keep upgrading the services and really
catering to the wants of the user groups which I guess once the standards
have been set, you don't want to come into your main park with something
substandard. My personal preference would be a slab with a roof over it.
That's it. No water. No electricity. Keep the noise and racket down to a
.,.... minimum. Don't turn it into a Valley Fair or Disneyland. Just let it be
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 22
-'
, kind of more natural and open but this is definitely in line with what's
happening in the industry and I have no reason to believe that we would see
anything from Van Doren-Hazard-Stallings that wouldn't be up to standards.
From past experience so I guess I'm not worried about that. I'm concerned
that we come up with a very convenient. wor'kable floor plan so we have a
good flow that can be efficiently operated and that we've been given it
careful consideration as not to forget anything important and to make the
best use of this space that we can so as to get the most for our dollar.
Things are looking pretty good and I think it will get more fine tuned as
additional concepts come to us.
Koegler: We are, obviously trying to balance aesthetics with budget with
material quality and other things. I can certainly assure you that within
budget parameters, we will strive to give you the most aesthetically
functional building we can because I certainly share your vision of what
Lake Ann Park has been for the last 15 years and where it's going in the
future. I think a really high quality structure out there certainly fits
with the rest of the park and the improvements you've put in. So I can
certainly assure you that that's our intent.
Andrews: I've got one more thing. Just thought of it. Drinking
fountains.
Koegler: Yeah, we talked about those last time around. That's another
thing that's on our laundry list. We had talked about having one on the
upstairs level and one on the downstairs level.
-'"
Andrews: That's good. Good enough for me. It's on the list.
Schroers: Does anyone else have anything to add in regards to tonight's
mission?
Koubsky: The only other small thing was on the sink. Like the urinal, I
think you need things for kids. I think we also need a sink for kids too
and if that means putting 3 in the men's, then I guess I'd be for it and
you could add a drinking fountain onto the sink. There will be a lot of
Ii t tIe people.
Schroers: Does staff anything they want to add?
Hoffman: Not at this time, no. Just again to review. This will then go
to City Council on April 22nd, the next City Council meeting. Park and
Recreation Commission meeting is the following night so I will just include
in your packet the report that went to Council that night so you are kept
up to date on action on this particular item.
Schroers: Okay. Well I guess if there's nothing further, we can thank
Mark for coming in again this evening and we can call for a motion to
adjourn.
..""I
,...
,....
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Park and Ree Commission Meeting
April 9, 1991 - Page 23
Robinson moved, Lash seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9=58 p.m..
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Recreation Coordinator
Prepared by Nann Opheim