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PRC 1991 04 23 JIll'" CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING APRIL 23, 1991 Chairman Schroers called the meeting to order at 7:34 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Dawne Erhart, Jim Andrews, Wendy Pemrick, Curt Robinson, Larry Schroers, Dave Koubsky and Jan Lash STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Coordinator and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Erhart moved, Koubsky seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meetings dated March 26, 1991 and April 9, 1991 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. VISITOR PRESENTATION AND SLIDE SHOW. PRESERVING THE BLUFF CREEK WATERSHED. PERRY DEAN AND ERIK ROTH. ,..... Hoffman: I'll make some brief comments. Perry Dean is on your left, Erik Roth on your right, approached the City just as a personal interest more or less, concerning discussions about what the City, the Planning Department, the Park and Rec, the City as a whole, what type of ideas or considerations have been given to the Bluff Creek watershed area for preservation. Paul Krauss, the Planning Director and myself sat down. We talked about the possibilities. It's a good idea to take a look at and in fact it's a good idea to take a look at preserving the entire Bluff Creek area eventually all the way from 212 on up through into the TH 5 to preserve a greenway corridor north/south between TH 5 and TH 212. Obviously as you know, the Park and Recreation Commission does not have a budget mechanism per se to pursue this type of thing outright but again, vision and taking a look into the future for this type of large project is something we always need to be taking a look at and as such, we just took a look at what we could do to move forward. Mr. Roth and Mr. Dean expressed that they had some slides which they could take us through and then also arrange for an actual on foot hike of the area sometime in mid-May. I'm sure they'll enlighten you. They're very experienced with that particular creek area and they're here this evening just to make us more familiar with it and perhaps to hear your ideas on the eventual future of that particular creek area. "" Perry Dean: Thank yoU for inviting us out tonight. We really appreciate it. We are here tonight to talk about Bluff Creek. Kind of a quiet little natural corner of Chanhassen that really not a lot of people are aware of. We're particularly concerned with the lower valley part but again, we're also concerned about the area above Pioneer Trail up towards TH 5. But in particular we're concentrating on this lower valley part where it entrenches down to the level of the Minnesota River Valley. From Pioneer Trail, I don't know if you can see the map up there. I guess this isn't good light for that but from Pioneer Trail on down to TH 101 and TH 212 where it comes out of the town there, crosses under the railroad track, it's about a mile and a half distance as the crow flies. The valley itself is between a quarter and a half mile wide. However, there are many small tributary valleys that come off Bluff Creek and the actual area down there seems much larger when you're down there than just being a mile and a half long. It really seems quite large. You very much seem like you're away Park and Rec Commission Meeting Apr i 1 23, 1991 - Page 2""" from the world when you're down there. The isolation of Bluff Creek is 'what has preserved it. It is off any big roads and pretty much the only people that know about it are the immediate residents, the people that live near-by. To most people it's just a line of trees out there across the field and people just really don't have any idea that there's this big valley here. The relief is about 40 feet where pioneer Trail crosses and as it goes down and entrenches down to the level of Minnesota, the bluffs reach like 200 feet high down towards the bottom. Because it's been isolated and fairly well preserved, really the only use it ever had was to be pastured. Used as pastureland and that was large discontinued about 1970. It's really quite an intact example of maple basswood forest. The classic eastern maple basswood forest. The French called the "Boire Forte" or the Big Woods from the large size of the trees. And at one time, this Big Woods covered a fairly extensive area of south central Minnesota but due to European settlement and agriculture, it's virtually disappeared except for in a few pockets. I mean at least in the classic intact sense. Nurstrand Woods down by Northfield is one such grove that's been preserved and Bluff Creek really is a very good example too. The rich forest terraces down along the bottom of the creek have a rich variety of wild flowers, spring of femerels. The trees of mainly maple, basswood, red oak, white oak, ironwood. Along the creek there are cottonwood trees and then on the northeastern slopes there are birch. Now also insuring the fact that Bluff Creek has been isolated and is inaccessible because of the steep sides of the valley. The cliffs along the edge. Cliffs in the glacial material. These are a natural feature of the area. In places though they have been aggravated by agricultural on the top where imprudent drainag~. .....,tI In fact, in some places very dynamic erosion has occurred along the cliff line. I know the Planning Commission is currently working with coming up with zoning for bluff line or some sorts of guidelines and I think it's very important to keep it in mind that there needs to be a significant margin along these cliffs. Most of the time Bluff Creek has water running in it. During drought years it will dry up entirely but much of the time it runs full. Most of the drainage basin of course is in the uplands of mid-Chanhassen. This went UP to the marshes but down in the lower courses here there are lots of beds of springs which flow into the creek. Very lime stone ridge. In fact these may be limestone fens which are relatively rare ecosystem which occurs along the Minnesota River Valley. Particularly by Black Dog prairie and several other places and they have a whole suite of plants which are very specialized and relatively rare. This particular creek, or bed of springs here is at the very bottom of the valley on the west side and in fact, this is part of what the City of Chanhassen already owns. I believe there's 21 acres down there along the west side of the creek which came to the city of Chanhassen as a result of the development to the Hesse Farm development. But you can see with these springs, the quality of the water down there is really quite good even though it drains a lot of agricultural land. There's probably a lot of phosphates but it does purify as it goes down the course of the valley. Now this is the same area of the springs. They're right next to that cedar tree there and this is what has happened as a result of some of the imprudent drainage up near the golf course. On the road out to the golf course. There's a ravine that comes in and due to wh~tever, for whatever reasons, an enormous erosional area has opened up partway down that gully and many, many cubic yards of mud and sand have come down and glutted the valley and washed ~ ,.... ~ "",...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 3 delta material all the way across the floor of the valley. They filled in the old stream bed, the former stream bed which is right here and has actually diverted the course of the stream off through the bed of springs there. So these are the sorts of things we need to be concerned about here. This is Bluff Creek in the winter. It's really very beautiful. It's a wonderful place to ski. Maybe not for everybody. It's kind of bush whacking kind of stick crashing but I love it. I love to go out there. It's really quite beautiful. The Bluff Creek valley is really an open book of the geology of Chanhassen. In particular the glacial geology. Most of the material that we see here and in Chanhassen was deposited 12,000 years ago by the Des Moines lobe of the Wisconsin glacier which came down out of the northwest through the Manitoba lowlands and dredged up an enormous amount of limestone. Through Western Minnesota it brought in gray crutaceous shale and in Central Minnesota it scooped up pigmeous rocks. Granites and shifts. And sometime along it's course of either advancing or retreating the margin on the glacier spent a fair amount of time here in Chanhassen and just dumped a large amount of material in what is called a terminal marine which causes the very hilly terrain, the lakes and swamps and very desireable residential for all sorts o~ areas. After that glacier retreated northward, it dammed up an enormous lake in northwestern Minnesota and into Canada called Glacial Lake Odysseys. This was about 10,000 years ago and the outlet of that lake was the Minnesota River Valley which carved this huge, entrenched this huge valley through southern Minnesota and Bluff Creek being a tributary of that to cut down through these deposits so there are a few places here where there are big open cliffs with the glacial material. Here you see it's roughly sorted clays and silts and if you live in Chanhassen I'm sure you're familiar. The iron stain. This is a little lythology lesson of the Bluff Creek glacial drift here. The stippeled rocks on the left there are limestone cobbles which have been stained with iron sitting in the drift and the solution has come around and created these mosslike patterns. Here you see some of the gray crutaceous shale. In the upper lefthand is limenite which is iron oxide. Of course there's iron allover and then there's a piece of granite too. You can see the overall light buff color of the glacial drift as a result of this heavy limestone content. In places there's so much limestone that it actually forms a natural cement. This is an unusual thing in glacial drift for it to become actual rock. It's become indurated. Forms large boulders in the creek bed. Here's a close up. It really does look just like cement and that's what it is. Natural cement. Like I said, this is an unusual feature. This is not something you see in a glacial drift elsewhere. This very same material of course is what they mined in Chaska for years for the Chaska brick which you still see in the old buildings and beautiful farmhouses in Chanhassen. The same material. This limestone rich soil has made a beautiful hardwood forest here. Like I say, it's the Big Woods. The maple basswood forest. At one time, well actually currently we are going through a major change out there with a major component of the forest was elm trees and with the Dutch Elm Disease coming through, it has transformed large areas of the creek area here. For example this terrace here was largely elms and if you were to go here, and we could go here on the field trip, you would see it's just many big dead logs now and the winters in this situation have been the maples. The maple trees strategy is to have many, many little seedlings scattered allover the forest which will wait from 10 to 15 to 20 years for that light to come Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 4 for that tree to fall and then they'll all shoot up and that's exactly what's happening right now. So it's selecting for maple. The maples are of course Chanhassen, the trademark. The Dakota work for maple tree, Chanhassen. Here are two sugar maples with very different forms without their leaves. And in fall, the same two trees do this every year. One of them's gold and one of them's red. This is right on the margin of Bluff Creek. In fact it's right in the yard of the Redmond's house. The new house that's built out there. Other trees of course are the oaks. This being white oak and red oaks, hickory, ash. Under the maple trees forms a very rich carpet. The maples in particular draw a lot of nutrients out of the soil and deposit them in their leaves so when the leaves fall back down onto the ground, it forms a very rich soil and that's why it seems so lush in a maple forest. So full of wild flowers. April, May and June are just incredible out there. It's one of the most spectacular displays of wild flowers of any place in the Twin Cities area that I'm aware of. It really is spectacular. Here we have rUe anomenoe, yellow woodland violet, purple violet, rattlesnake fern. The first flowers to come out are the paticas and they are currently out in fact out there. In profusion. They come up before there's any other plants have come out. They're called spring of femerels. They come out before the leaves on the trees to take advantage of the sunlight for photosynthesis. They form really quite a spectacular show which is going on right now out there. And then come the bloodroots. And Dutchman's britches. Virginia waterleaf. The red bainberry. Just dozens and dozens of wild flower plants out here. There's also many ferns. This is a maidenhair fern. Lady fern. Cut leaf...and there are some very rare plants out here too. This is a patch of the yellow lady slipper which of course is protected in Minnesota. There's also gingseng out here in Bluff Creek which at one time was fairly common in the forest of eastern North America but because of it's alleged medicinal properties, particularly to the people in the Orient, it has been hunted to the edge of extinction. It gets a lot of money per pound for the root and people have gone out, farmers have gone out for a little extra cash have hunted the gingseng almost to the verge of extinction. But there are a few patches of gingseng in Bluff Creek. Definitely worth saving. Down in the bottom of the valley, towards the lower end, there are actually some grassy areas in the bottom which are in fact little remnants of the tall grass prairie with the classic prairie grasses, the indian grass, side oats gramma, little blue stem. Some of the flowers that also grow only in the prairies. This is the hairy pacoon. There's also a gentian and lead plant and what this represents in Bluff Creek is a microcosm of what's call the tension zone in Minnesota between the prairies and the eastern hardwood forest which kind of interdigitate depending on the topography and the location. Bluff Creek has both. Has samples of both which definitely adds to it's value. And I also mentioned cedar trees are a significant component in the cliffs. This is one of the larger cliffs down towards the bottom which has been quite active over the years. The golf course, the Bluff Creek club house is just over the hill here. But Bluff Creek contains a wide variety of wildlife habitats. There are many deer in here. There's also beaver. Beaver building dams. Active beavers. Fox, racoons, other mammals. Also lots of birds. Protected area for birds. Forms a very significant ecosystem and because of it's size, it has a lot of range and allows for some of these larger mammals to thrive in here. This is my closing picture here. 1 just wanted to give you kind of an overview of the natural aspects ....." ....", ,....; ,....., ,...... ,.,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 5 of Bluff Creek. I would of course love to see it preserved the way it is as Chanhassen develops. Of course the pressures on places like this are going to become greater. I would like to see it preserved as a public place. A place where maybe on a limited access sort of thing to preserve it's natural character but I really feel that this is the sort of thing that, this is a very valuable asset and I think that the public really deserves to have this. So with that I will turn it over to Erik who will talk about some of the past efforts that we have, he in particular has done in preserving Bluff Creek and also some more experiential type of perspectives. Erik Roth: I too want to thank you very much for indulging us in our interest here in hopes that you will share our interest. I don't know if any of you, I think someone mentioned hunting through that area so I would hope that indeed all of you are familiar to some extent with this place. If not, I'd be delighted to show it to you. We would because between us we've covered a fair amount, maybe half the glove in travels and these days, Earth Day going by, we think about having to think globally and act locally. Well, even though we've seen some pretty marvelous places around the world, we believe that this particular valley is indeed extraordinary. It's features largely are intact naturally as an inadvertent consequence of development occurring in the last century when a railroad was built from the Twin Cities going south through southwest through the Minnesota River Valley, following the bluff line. You can see it here going off to the lower right. This railroad as it passed Bluff Creek, in order to maintain the grade a large earthen dike was erected in it to allow the creek to flow through. Well as I say, the inadvertent affect of this huge dike was to block off the valley from sight so that, except for the fact that there's this culvert and a creek tumbling out, one wouldn't know what's there behind it unless you go up to it and see. Or try to go through the culvert and look. That's exactly what Perry and I did in 1962 as school boys drawn to this sort of thing. This is what we saw standing on top of that railroad above the culvert. You can see the creek below and the lower valley we called it. These rolling meadows here delighted our eyes and drew us into this space to explore it. It hadn't been too many years after this area had been grazed and at that time you could still see a lot of evidence of cattle grazing. Even today you can still see some barbed wire fencing here and there throughout it to keep the cattle in. As a result of the moving out of the cattle, certain plants have sprung up and horsetail rush is probably the most noteable but in the many years since 1962 we've seen a lot of change in plant forms. The natural, in that many years you're going to see a natural succession of growth. Just as Perry mentioned, the elm trees fading as a consequence of the blight. Even if there weren't a blight, there is a natural succession of ~lants and we've seen a good deal of that. Of course we were drawn up this creek from that railroad just to see what's there. The lower valley as you can see here is wide open and has a feel of the prairie in parts. Further up you get into the woods. Now here, on a bluff quite a ways up, it's maybe hard to see for you from a distance but in the pretty much dead center of the picture is that culvert that the creek winds through. There's a shadow of the embankment that the railroad has built across the picture. And then beyond is the Min~sota River Valley. without that shadow line going across the upper center of the picture, the valley itself would be wide open to the Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 6 Minnesota River Valley and probably would have had some encroachment from below up into this lower valley space. But as a result of that railroad, the valley has been cut off from development and it has stayed fairly wild. Up into the further areas of this valley, it begins to take on aspects of the microcosm. Just as the creek itself in it's large sense is a microcosm of the Minnesota River Valley, it too has little tributary valleys leading into it which are microcosms of the Bluff Creek valley. And all of these are full of remarkable sites. A beautiful display of plants. Here the creek is dry. This was taken in probably the mid 70's during the period of drought and the creek was largely dry there although it was intermittent. As Perry mentioned, there were springs in the lower valley. There are also springs at a couple of spots further up the creek and they would create water that would be standing and then elsewhere along it's course it would be dryas you see here. But it made for a really marvelous place to explore. All along it's course there are trails. Natur.l trails. Deer paths. Actually there are basically three of them that I can identify as significant roadways if you will. One along the creek itself, one partway up the bluff and near the bluff peak all interconnected as nature paths as natural paths are. And as we were growing up, we would make little shelters. If any of you have been in there, maybe you've come across these. We were the ones who built them. Here's another one. These are gone now. Largely just built from picked up stuff off the valley floor and now they're gone the way of dead fall. As was our intention actually. This is tributary creek. In and of itself it looks quite large. There's kind of a wonderful play of scale that occurs throughout this place. O~ce within it, within this Bluff Creek valley, indeed you are cut off from the entire outside world. You can't see anything that occurs above th~ bluff line. Occasionally you might hear, depending on where you are, if you're close to the bluff line you might hear a golf cart. You might hear a lawn mower or you might more likely hear a plane from Flying Cloud Airport but other than that, you are totally cut'off and you might as well be in the Boundary Waters for all you know. It is truly a place apart. This actually is a characteristic which Frederick Law Olmstead singled out as the most important...that there shouldn't be any intrusion within the park from anything, any of the outlying commerces and activity that necessarily goes on. Once within the park you need to be able to get away from that. Whether it be a city park or it be a larger outlying area park. This particular valley allows that in the degree that is truly extraordinary. As I say, we've seen many changes. This picture was taken in the late 60's I believe. We were on the rim of one of the larger cliffs there. We've identified two major cliffs and there are some minor cliffs but there are two significant cliffs and this is one of them. This particular maple that was on the edge then and you can see here on the edge eroded. It had it's soil eroded out from underneath it and it slid down and is now in this picture in the center left there is a skeltal remains. That's happened repeatedly and is probably part of the natural cycle. As long as the erosion isn't exasberated by imprudent drainage, whether it be from housing developments or golf course runoff or whatever. The erosion, into these bluffs from a meandering creek is a natural occurrence and in a relatively short amount of time. Indeed within a decade or two, these hollows, these scooped out areas from erosion tend to fill up with plants. Cedars and sumacs and other vegetation so they do tend to stablize as long as the edge, the upper edge, the bluff rim has sufficient depth to it to ....,., -" ...." ifI"" ,..... "...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 7 accommodate some catastrophe as in the center of this picture and that scooped out hollow you can see a shadowy outlines of that maple tree. That now is a dim memory because there's hardly any evidence of it anymore. But during all of these years as we would explore this place, we began to realize that we bore some responsibility for it and we tried to see if there were ways to preserve it. In the late 70's I tried to bring it to the attention of the Nature Conservancy and took to this valley on a hike a worker from the Nature Conservancy, Jeff Barnard who has now gone onto, as they say bigger and better things. He's now trying to preserve the rain forest in Costa Rica. That's very important. However, I believe this is no less important. Certainly as far as we here are concerned. This is what we have to work with and it would be a terrible shame to lose it. This particular picture is taken from the peak, the top of one of those bluffs looking across one slice, across the valley so that all that you see in this picture is contained within the valley. The tree line on the horizon is, as sharp as you see it, on the other side of those individual trees which you can make out there, well there once was farmland. Now that's the Hesse Farm. Developed housing. And so that edge is indeed, as narrow as the screen. It's just a thin veil of trees. You can name them almost. They're individually significant and to lose one is like losing one of your front teeth. Not only are those trees significant for protecting the sense of space within the valley but indeed they are literally by their roots, holding on to the soil that's holding that bluff edge in place. Here you can see through that a little bit better and you can see the open space through those trees so you can sense how delicate the edges are. Yet descending into that volume of space below immediately cuts you off from whatever is going on on the upper world above and that truly is delightful. To be able to get away. That's a human perspective. As far as the plants and the wildlife is concerned, that becomes refuge and indeed they have taken to this in quite some exuberance. Here's one of the houses. There's a number of them that have been built right up to the edge of the bluff. ,Some of them are aesthetically fairly nice. Without getting into those aspects of pursism or anything, I think it's important that the people of Chanhassen recognize what the valley has to offer to see if there isn't some way to accommodate this open space with our view of private property. Indeed the Nature Conservancy felt that the best way of preserving this, acquiring this might be through what's called a conservation easement. I don't mean to propose a strategy at this point but only to suggest that this place is so deserving of our consideration that we try to come up with a way, given the will to preserve it. A conservation easement would allow the particular property owners to keep ownership. To be able to sell it. To pass it on to their heirs. To do those sorts of things with it. However, the terms of an easement, even though it's site specific would have the strings attached to it that the various owners who together would join an easement would determine. And as I say, it's site specific. A lot of different possibilities can exist. So unlike other types of preservation, conservation easement might allow hunting for example. It might allow a variety of uses. But as I say, I don't mean to suggest that that's the only way to go here. Back in the mid 70's, not only did I take some Nature Conservancy people out here but I also approached two members of the Raher family. The Raher Malting Company has a firm, some elevators and big concern in Shakopee just across the Minnesota River Valley. Across the Minnesota River from here and because Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 8 of that proximity I thought they might be interested. Indeed they were and as a consequence of taking Guido Raher out to this valley, his Fritz Raher invited Perry and I to give a similar talk to the Watershed District commissioners which we did in 1984. At that time they were acquiring, if you will, Bluff Creek as a part of their jurisdiction along with Riley and Purgatory Creek. And so they've been keeping their eye on this place I suppose.. In the last so many years the farmland that we see here that characterised much of the plateau above the Minnesota River Valley now has been subdivided and is becoming certainly a mixed use. Becoming more largely residential so this is a fading scene. It's not something we would expect to see 10-15 years, 20 years from now. Nonetheless so far, the creek continues to flow through the valley undisturbed and remains a beautiful world apart. I'm particularly concerned that the encroachment of development will reach a critical mass surrounding this valley that will bring some major changes on the order of the railroad back in the last century. Certainly the building of Highway 212 which will cut across Bluff Creek on the northern part of the valley that we are focusing on today. That will be as significant as the railroad was in the last century. And so, truly it's now or never as far as this place is concerned and it's up to us. If it doesn't happen, we are to blame. If it does get preserved, we can share in the credit I suppose. This is taken from above this valley. The valley itself in the center of the left of the picture there is a silo. You can maybe barely make it out. The Bluff Creek descends below that and off into the distance. The farmland in the foreground is now no longer farmland. It's houses. And Hwy 212 will cut across this picture when it is built. Nonetheless, there is beneath this rainbow a pot of gold if we would only maintain it. That's Bluff Creek so I do hope that you can take a look at it yourselves because I think that's the thing that will convince you more than any of these pictures or our talk. So I hope that somehow we can find a way to preserve it for it's own sake and also for the sake of our great grandchildren. I do believe there ought to be a way to do this without usurping any of the property of any of the owners but indeed any of the people who had chosen to live beside this valley must recognize how gorgeous it is or they wouldn't probably have moved there. And indeed to put some kind of a park there, park space that is more in line with a nature preserve than maybe asphalt paths and that like. However, it certainly could only enhance the property value in it's immediately vicinity and it's got to be I think a jewel in the crown of the comprehensive plan for open and park space for the town of Chanhassen. So that's what I have as far as pictures are concerned. I'd be happy to answer any questions if you have any. Like I say, we'd like to take you there. That's the thing that most of all will I think persuade people of how extraordinary a place it is. Schroers: How about if we reorganize and continue with this. Erik Roth: Thank you. ....." ....", Schroers: It was very well presented and, at least from my part, was very eye opening. I think that my general feeling is that you're going to drum up a lot of support from this commission. Hopefully there will be a way that we can help. I'd like to give each commissioner an opportunity to express themselves on this issue. Before that I would like to say that ,., ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 9 past commissions and staff personnel have recognized this as a significant area and have identified it as an area that we would like to see set aside as green space and potential passive use park area and we have looked at some ways of procuring it or preserving it to that end. What we have done in the past is, the only thing that we could see that was feasible from a monetary point of view that looked like a workable situation was to try to get this property annexed or incorporated into the Minnesota Valley National Wildlife Refuge because it borders up to it. And we had discussions on that and we were starting to look into the possibility or to see whether there was such a possibility and then at that time we had staff changes and we had commissioner changes and I really don't know where that's at. At this point. I don't know if the National, if the Minnesota Valley National Wildlife Refuge has actually been contacted and approached with that and I don't know what your feeling is on that. If that would in fact impose on the current landowners. If that's an interest that you perhaps wouldn't want to entertain. I don't know but I think that it's worth talking about. I just want to say that I thought your presentation was superb. It was really good and I'd like to give the rest of the commissioners an opportunity to express themselves. Anyone want to start? Lash: I guess this goes along with the old saying, a picture is worth a thousand words. It was gorgeous. I just can't thank you enough for allowing us to see that and there are many of us who have never seen that ~ area. I know I have never seen it. This is my idea of preserving open space in the City of Chanhassen and I would certainly be supportive of any efforts that we could make in that direction. This is what people moved to Chanhassen for I think. I don't know what all we can do but I certainly would like to see staff investigating what kind of possibilities for preserving this area. Koubsky: I guess I'd like to thank you also Perry and Erik. Very well done. I haven't been up in the creek area but I certainly will. Especially with the flowers and what not this spring, that's real nice to see. I too like Jan seem to think that if there's any place in Chanhassen to preserve as a wildlife sanctuary or something similar to what you're discussing, this would probably be it. I'd also support any efforts or be willing to help out with time to see what we can accomplish. Robinson: I too was impressed with the beauty of your presentation. I'm curious and I haven't been out in the Bluff Creek area except when the Commissioners went out there one time to find that parkland that I don't believe we ever did exactly locate it. But how many acres are we talking about in the whole? Perry Dean: If that little section of parkland down there is 21 acres, if that's any indication, I would say we're probably talking about, probably the section of the actual valley area about a square mile... Erik Roth: It's extraordinarily deceptive. As experienced as we are with that place. Like I say, we've been there since 1962 and some years going out there once a week. Other years maybe once a month. I was there Sunday ~ and in all those times, I tend to go through there like a dog which is all over. That way you end up finding things that you don't always find. In Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 10 ....." spite of almost 30 years of experience, I still find places there that I've never been to or see things that I have not seen before and have been delighted by it. And thrown off by this very unusual phenomenom of scale where it seems much bigger than it actually is on the map. Now I'm not exactly sure what that's due to other than the fact that the creek does meander. The tributaries do meander. There is some tremendous elevation change. You go through a lot of plant forms. Going from room to room, from terrace to terrace or what not so there's a different feel from place to place throughout it. All of those things tend to enlarge the feeling of the place. And so it's really difficult for us to give you a figure for acreage. Whatever it is, I think ultimately when we figure that out, it will seem much, it will appear much smaller than the experience indicates. Robinson: Thank you both very much for taking your time to come down tonight. Pemrick: Yeah, thank you. It was really a very beautiful presentation. I'm curious as to, how is it owned now? Is it the property that abuts it? The homes? .. Perry Dean: There's a number of owners. A significant owner, if you'll take a look at the map behind you. Most of that over here, in fact this whole area here is the golf course which is owned by the golf course and then th1s whole area up here is called Bluff Creek Development Company. All this part of the valley which I understand is also owners of the golf course, or at least some of the owners of the golf course or something like that. So basically this whole block up here which is much of the valley. I'd say like more than half, a bulk of the valley is owned by the golf course and golf course association. Down here it gets much more involved. Particularly on the east side there. There's a number of owners on the east side. In fact there's one parcel for sale right where TH 101 goes under the railroad tracks there. On the north side. On the uphill side to the right there. There is a small parcel there for sale. ...."" Pemrick: That has a home on it? Hoffman: No it does not. Pemrick: Is that Teich's property? Perry Dean: Yeah, it'd be across. And then the Hesse Farm development down here, this is where they in fact, where they gave up, I don't know exactly how it worked. The 20 acres is right in here of Bluff Creek. Bluff Creek Park. Erik Roth: I might say that in the early 80's when I was talking with the Nature Conservancy about possible ways to acquire...place such as this, and just did not get their limited budget and agenda at that time. However, they certainly encouraged us, they thought it was worth preserving. They were a bit dismayed at the large number of owners and I think what dismayed them was that made it difficult for a private entity to just simply go in to acquire. Without governmental support, that made it very difficult for a private entity to do that. However, with governmental support, in other ....." II""'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 11 words if this becomes significant on the agenda of the City of Chanhassen, that's in a whole other ballgame. And given that kind of support, there's still a variety of ways to approach it; It's not something where you need to take away land from someone who owns it already~ It's possible I believe that all these owners living there now can benefit by teaming together with that property that is included within this valley and is also the rim of the bluff. The summit, along the plateau above the creek which is essential to it's integrity. Both ecologically and experiencially. So to me, as I look at the problem, what's essential is determining...will to preserve it and then a terrific creative effort to figure out how to do it. Once the will is there, I think a way can be found in a way that would enhance the value of property for all the people that live there now... benefit from it just as the golf course does. It seems like to me a way to preserve it's natural attributes only enhances everyone's interest. BacK in the early 80's, without official support. I did go to a man named Bruce Hankenen worked for the City of Chanhassen and I approached the City at that time. They told me of course it was considered as a corridor at that time and maybe that's what the status is now but basically was on the back burner.. .at that time. Pemrick: Is that the Chicago Railway that runs through there? Hoffman: Yes. ,..., Pemrick: So that would be a natural trail that would go through part of it. Hoffman: We're talking about that this evening. Pemrick: Part of the trail. There wouldn't be any possibility then of a big plot of land going to development in one crack so that's what I was wondering about. I would definitely be interested in walking it. I've walked some of it but from the slides I don't think I've seen enough of it so I'd be interested in getting together with you guys when you do form that group. Erik Roth: It's a real vigorous experience because of the elevation changes plus in some places it's like going through a thicket. There are brambles and briars and all of that have discouraged some of our friends but we knew the way I guess. Pemrick: I would agree with Jan though that if it would be acquired, it should definitely be left in it's natural state. Erik Roth: I think so. It could accommodate, there are trails there now. There are natural paths that are animal paths. Very few people go there. So few indeed that we've been able to track them. So it's kind of stayed in this belljar for a long time but it can't last without some intervention. I think it would be nice certainly, I think it's important to keep it, even if no one ever went there. Still it's possible to have... in the sense that it would accommodate a nice trail through there with JI"""" whatever kind of trail would allow it to be enjoyed by any number of people Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 12 ~ throughout the year. It's best 3 seasonally. Summer it gets to be a little intense with insects. Pemrick: I'm curious. Has there been any feedback from owners? Erik Roth: We've only seen limited numbers. I really, without kind of official support, I never felt like I could knock on somebody's door and say hey, I've got just the thing you ought to do with your property. It just didn't seem right and we were well aware of the fact that in a sense we were trespassing all of these years. However, all of those years we didn't run into, very few people. Some. Got to know some of the kids who were in there hunting and whatever. They had seen those lodges that we made so we built a bit of a repoire there but I really have not gone door to door and taken a survey in terms of what the people. I think most people who are there probably appreciate it and don't want to see it changed. They like the status quo which is what we're after. I believe it should stay that way without actually going through all of these procedures. It's not going to happen. I've seen too many other places... I honestly don't know what the property owners... Andrews: I'd like to thank you both too. I thought this was a beautiful presentation. I wanted to make a couple of brief comments. I guess I'd like to know if there exists a law in the city that would be similar to what they have like on Lake Minnetonka for development along lakeshore. That would be similar to development along the bluff ridges. Some sort of a setback rule or a setback law. If that's something to look at that ~ problem in the near term in a way of preserving the erosion problem. Hoffman: Currently there exists a setback from the center line of the creek 75 feet. Ideally that does not preserve the bluff. (There was a tape change at this point in the discussion.) DISCUSSION. CHICAGO & NORTHWESTERN R.R.. HENNEPIN COUNTY RAIL AUTHORITY RIGHT-OF-WAY. Public Present: Name Address {,AlE-> ( 730 p,.jo. Lit 96th Street 1190 Bluff Creek Drive, Chaska 630 West 96th Street 730 pioneer Trail, Chaska 675 Lakota Lane, Chaska 105 Pioneer Trail 9610 Meadow Lark Lane Carol Dunsmore Diane Gilbertsen Karen Hasse Betty Wold Sue Severson Gayle Vogel Matt Thi 11 Schroers: ...motorized vehicles. When you get down into that valley and start hill climbing with dirt bikes and running allover with snowmobiles, that's the thing that bothers me. If there was a good way to keep people ~. ,-.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 13 on the trails and police it so they would stay where they're supposed to be, that would be a different thing. But when you run past an open area like that, unless you hpve some kind of constant police patrol, people are definitely going to go into an area like that. Lash: That's a good point and I would not like to see that happen. When you mentioned the Luce Line you said there were certain areas that were designated and maybe that's a solution that we could look at here and just have the motorized be west of the bluff area or something. I don't know. I'm not saying that I feel strongly one way or the other. I'm just saying I wouldn't feel comfortable tonight ruling out motorized vehicles as far as I'm concerned. But I do think that this is an opportunity, especially in this part of town. We really don't have much of a trail system down there. We're scant on east/west connectors. Any kind of trail system as it is now so I think it's a perfect opportunity for us to jump in there. Koubsky: I think it's a nice opportunity we ought to consider also. I was wondering Todd, it is not owned by the railroad. It looks like it's been purchased by the Rail Authority. I know this is an impossible question but do they have any idea if they would ever really intend to use this? If we developed it. Hoffman: That's their eventual intent is to use that as a light rail ~. transit corridor. Now the crystal ball is when exactly will light rail transit be developed. 10-15-20-40 years from now. Koubsky: Those are probably their projects ions at least. Lash: Somewhere between 20 and 50 years. 10 and 50 years. Robinson: At the rate they're going. Schroers: Somewhere between now and eternity. Robinson: Right. Lash: In our lifetime. Well I guess I think we need to keep that in consideration as far as the cost factor goes. I think we need to keep this down as much as possible in the event that say it is only 10 years away. Koubsky: I guess another discussional point. How do you police, I'm fairly new on the Board so forgive me. How do you police motorized or non-motorized? If you were to dedicate it one or the other. This is a fairly unpopulated area of the city. We put Class V or whatever surface we wanted it, it's a perfect opportunity for any type of traffic, truck traffic or whatever, to utilize it. There'll be a lot of maintenance involved. I can see motorized vehicles doing a lot more damage than good, especially if it wasn't asphalted. How do you police that type of thing other than posting a sign? I"'" Schroers: You post the sign and you target that area to the local authorities and to the CSO and whatever other resources you have available and you write a whole bunch of tickets. Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 14 ...." Koubsky: Is that effective? Schroers: In some cases it is. I mean it deters turning it into a motorized r.ecreation area versus a non-motorized area. I have experience with several areas like this and when it's a new area and it's designated and you've got brand new signs out there and the authorities are out there writing tickets, the word spreads. People are just going to get 2 or 3 tickets and it starts to impact them to the point where they say it's not worth it. You can't go there without getting busted. We've got to find someplace else. Then you are going to have your occasional person going out \here that might get away with it but initially if you target the area and police it as heavily as you can, that seems to be pretty effective. Koubsky: I guess those are my comments. Robinson: I think this is a real opportunity for us. It sounds like it would not take a lot of money to make it at least a walking trail or a horse trail or something. Some small amount of rock. I think we should exert our efforts at this time to do what it takes to get this right-of- way and then determine where we go from there but it sounds like a real opportunity that I don't think we can pass up. Pemrick: My husband and I were out driving and we saw these ties being ripped up and we thought are they being replaced or what and the next thing I get a call from Eldon Burkwin, my neighbor and I was at the Homeowner's Association meeting last night but I had to leave early so I didn't get a chance to get feedback from most of the people, although those I sat by did ~ agree to a trail is definitely wanted. And I've heard figures of like $12,000.00 or $13,000.00. Now am I imagining this? Hoffman: That would be in the low range for the material. The aggregate surface which would be similar to the aggregate trail which is installed up in the northwest corner which is crushed limestone, 3/8 inch or finer. Right around that $15,000.00 for that material itself and then obviously installation costs. Pemrick: So what do they think the cost would be with installation? Hoffman: Depending on if installation was contracted or performed by the City. If it was performed by the City, then it's obviously just the hours. You you from the Public Works and Park Maintenance personnel. Pemrick: How long is this section that goes through Chanhassen? Hoffman: I'm guessing approximately 4 miles. If anybody in the audience knows. Public: They bought...which is across from 212 where it starts in Eden Prairie. I don't think it's 4 miles but I don't know. I don't know what the mile marker is. Hoffman: To that point it certainly would not be but the entire segment across. .....", Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ April 23, 1991 - Page 15 Pemrick: Well I'm all in favor of it. I think most people would be. It's a natural thing to do and I think we should pursue it wholeheartedly. Andrews: I agree. We should signal our intent that we would like to have this designated as a trail. Funding is our crisis and probably will be more so each year here over the next couple years so I guess I'm concerned about cost and I'm wondering if it would be feasible just to grade off the heavy rock or to run some sort of roller or crusher over it and make it more useable and perhaps just leave it as it is until we have the money to resurface it. The other concern I have is if it does become, or if we do resurface it and it's not property owned by the City of Chanhassen, how is maintenance going to be handled and who's responsible for it in the future? So that's a concern but that's a concern that's a little premature at this point. And obviously I agree with some of the other commissioners that we should not heavily invest in this project because if it is possible and it's going to be improved in a 10 year period or somewhere in that timeframe, if we were to asphalt this or try to highly improve it, I don't think would be a wise investment. That's it. Pemrick: I would like to break in here and say I guess I would not be in favor of motorized vehicles simply because we have to respect the homes that do border along there or are close to it. You can handle a train going through once a day or something because you know and you expect it. I grew up with a train going through my back yard so it wasn't that big a deal but when you've got sporatic traffic during the day or evening hours, it can be a real nuisance. ,... Erhart: I'd also be in favor of it. I can't help but feel that it would be a lot cheaper than putting a trail system in and trying to buy easements from individual land owners. However, I would like to find out what the intent is as far as the time frame for the light rail transit. Also, I would caution motorized vehicles on it. I think all the other uses. It's a really unique opportunity and I think we should go for it. Schroers: Okay. I'm wondering if we could ask staff to check with the rail authority and see what their intent is and also to check with the cities of Eden Prairie and Chaska to see how they feel about the right-of- way as a trail and if they intend to develop it and what timeframe they're looking at for doing that. It would be nice to be able to work together and if it appears that there's going to be adequate time and the cost is reasonable and if we can develop that trail system and get 10 years or 15 years worth of use out of it, it would be real nice to pursue. But I do think we should find out intentions of the rail authority and Eden Prairie and Chaska. Hoffman: At this point the rail authority's total involvement is a real mystery. I have spoken to both representatives from Eden Prairie and Chaska and admittedly they're very interested as well but we're all waiting to meet with folks from Hennepin County Rail Authority to get some more specifics. We can garner that information and then put it into a more concise report. Bring that back to the commission in a fairly short time so if this were to be considered as part of the 1992 Capital Improvement ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 16 -"" Program, analysis beginning in mid-summer, then the information would be there for your use at that time. Schroers: Okay. Well we spoke earlier Todd about the trail that is going through the northwest corner of the park and I mentioned the type of aggregate that's east of TH 101 on that trail. Did you have an opportunity to check with Minnetonka or whoever that is over there to see what that was? Hoffman: They're using a crushed limestone. It's somewhat smaller than the last stuff that the street superintendent over in Victoria ordered. Was not exactly what he ordered. It was somewhat larger. Then they used just regular crushed limestone in the city of Shorewood and it changes back, but not limestone but Class V limestone in Shorewood and then to switches back to the crushed limestone again up in the area which you're speaking of. Schroers: The crushed limestone makes just a wonderful trail for horses, for bicycles and everything. You don't even need a mountain bike. You can ride a regular street bike on it. If there wouldn't be a major cost factor in say 3/8 minus versus crushed limestone, I would strongly promote the crushed limestone as a surface. It's a much more useable and enjoyable surface to be on. It's kind of too bad that sections of that trail that exist now have the different material on it because it turns from a nice bicycling trail that's just about like pavement into more of a mountain bike or walking trail in other sections. Consistency would make it nice so you can start from one end and go to the other depending on your mode of ~' transportation. But anyway, since this was just a discussion item and it requires no formal action at this time so are there any issues that the residents have of concern that we haven't addressed? Resident: When you're talking about the multiple use, you're going to have children walking on...And then the other thing, motorized vehicles getting on there like Lake Ann or... It's real easy for people to get through but hard...so that would limit some Qf that. And then I think the policing of.. . Schroers: What you need to do about that, if there are people hunting illegally would be to notify the Conservation Officer. Resident: ...1 don't know about you but I don't want to go out... Schroers: No, you just call the authorities. Okay. Well, thank you very much for coming tonight and showing your interest and I hope that we can work together in getting that trail developed. At this point it's pretty early to be overly optimistic but I think that we'll definitely be pursuing it. So thanks very much and we're going to have to move on, or actually move back. SITE PLAN REVIEWw 6541 MINNEWASHTA PARKWAY. Hoffman: This is a fairly simple subdivision, site plan review. It's brought to the attention of the Commission as an informational item to keep ......" ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 17 you up to date on activity occuring within the City, especially since this parcel is adjacent to Minnewashta Parkway which is currently on the discussion blocks at the neighborhood meeting and eventually public hearing level at the City Council for the roadway improvement and/or construction of a trailway along Minnewashta Parkway. What this entails is a large, 39,000, just about 40,000 square foot parcel which is being divided into two parcels slightly under 20,000 square feet. There's a current home on the lot which will be dismantled. Destroyed and then it's the intent of the current applicants to go ahead and build two single family homes on the particular site. The site does contain shoreland or lakeshore to Lake Minnewashta. It's a convenient location on Minnewashta Parkway. However, it's not realistic to go ahead and take a look at acquisition of any of this land. Thus it is the recommend~tion of staff that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council accept park and trail fees in lieu of parkland dedication and/or trail construction on this site. Schroers: Anyone have a particular comment on this? I mean it seems pretty clear to me that it really wouldn't make to require that of this particular parcel. Andrews: I just have one question. I know this doesn't pertain to our jurisdiction so to speak but what is the intended width of the frontage of the lake? Do you know that? ~ Hoffman: It would require a variance. Andrews: Is that being addressed already? Hoffman: No. Andrews: We don't have anything to do with that? Hoffman: No. We're just addressing the park and trail fee issue. It would require a variance for lot size and lakeshore frontage. Robinson: I make a motion we recommend that the City Council accept the park and trail fees in lieu of parkland dedication and trail construction. Lash: Second. Robinson moved, Lash seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council accept the park and trail fees in lieu of parkland dedication and trail construction. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. PARK INVENTORY RESULTS. Hoffman: This item derived out of basically a need in planning park facilities and acquisition of equipment. Park equipment and that sort of thing throughout the City. It was difficult for me to always remember exactly, as it probably is for the Commission as well, exactly what ~ equipment we have in what parks and what facilities are where. Those types Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 18 ..." of things. To accomplish that goal I established park inventory days. Invited our park maintenance staff, which is an important component of our department and Jerry and myself to partake in those inventory tours. " Visits if you will. Do some brainstorming. Take a look at the future development of our city parks. Take a look at the present state of their being. How they are Qeing maintained. That type of thing. If we have existing problems, maintenance problems. Drainage problems. Those types of things within the parks. It gave staff an opportunity to discuss those types of items amongst ourselves and then eventually derived this booklet which will prove useful throughout the year. It will prove useful in the budget process and then will be updated on an annual basis from here on in. Robinson: Who did most of the' work on this? That's a lot of work on this? Hoffman: I went ahead and prepared the, if you recall back to the Chairman Lynch's days, he did a smaller version of this type of thing. So I piggy backed up with his idea. Went ahead and created the forms and laid out the format for the visits. We took notes and measurements and those types of things so we can begin some standardization when we're purchasing additional equipment. Why always be purchasing something different? Start some standardization throughout the park system. This will allow that and then we just went ahead and plugged those checks and numbers and specifications in and had it typed into a nice form so it's very easy to look through. It's in alphabetical form and then as well the park inventory and the notes and observations and specifications face each other so you can look at that at the same time. ."""I Lash: I had just two questions." One was on Minnewashta Heights Park. It says that it does not contain pea gravel surfacing? Is that something that we're planning on doing something about? Hoffman: We'll take a look at that. It will be an item potential for the border wood of probably less or right around the $1,000.00 mark. Less than a $1,000.00. I think we should look at that as a funding venture to squeeze into the $175,000.00 CIP for 1991 so we accomplish that. There it is. It's right underneath your nose but I never knew it did not have surfacing. Lash: And the other one was Rice Marsh Lake Park where the volleyball court has no sand? Hoffman: Again, it's not as much a concern as a safety concern but it's played as is right now as a turf surfacing. It can or cannot remain that way. Pemrick: Is this booklet available for Joe Q citizen? I mean it'd be a nice reference for everyone in the City if they expressed an interest. Hoffman: I think what we're working towards here is, it's my intent to begin formulation with the Commission's assistance in a city park map and index. We had additional parklands, the 4-5 parcels in the Chanhassen Hills, Lake Susan West area which we wanted to bring on line prior to putting that investment into a piece of, a brochure of that type. But now .....,,; ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 19 that those are on line, I think as part of the 1992 budget process we should take a look at that formulation of a city park index which then will dress this up. Include new glossy photos, etc. Park map for the locations that then can be made available to the public. Pemrick: That would be great. Also, on the Bandimere Park there's the volleyball court for 1991. Will that be this summer do you think? Hoffman: Correct. Pemrick: And where on the field, do you know where that's going to be placed? Hoffman: It will go up in the, if you're looking from the street, the far left corner. Pemrick: By the playground equipment? Hoffman: Yep. Back in the area inbetween the playground equipment and the retention pond there. Behind the soccer field. Pemrick: Oh, okay. Way back there? Schroers: Okay. Anything more on item 4? ,..... APPROVE PURCHASE OF PLAY EQUIPMENT. SOUTH LOTUS LAKE AND SUNSET RIDGE PARK. Hoffman: The 1991 park acquisition, development and capital improvement program identified expenditures of $10,000.00 for play equipment at south Lotus Lake Park and then a total expenditure of $19,000.00 for general development at Sunset Ridge Park, the newly named Outlot G. Of the $19,000.00, $12,000.00 was earmarked for play equipment at that site. In order to go ahead and take a look at all playground vendors, to be fair to those playground vendors, I went ahead and asked for proposals providing each different playground vendor with a play area description which are enclosed in your packet and then again the other requirements and the information explaining them to them what these play areas will look like. Five companies that were contacted all chose to send back a proposal. Those were critiqued by myself to take a look at play value, number of platforms, number of play amenities. Those types of things. Comparison from one to the other. Their performance in the park and recreation field. Their past history. Those types of things. Basically coming up with the best overall product for the dollar. Intentionally, as you know, Earl F. Anderson Company and Landscape Structures is the company representative which the City has worked with for a number of years almost exclusively. So they were somewhat surprised to see me take this approach to go ahead and approach 5 separate vendors. But surprisingly or not, they still came out on top. That may show some effect that they indeed did have some competition this go around and they need to provide the City with a good product but they came up with the most play decks. The largest number of poles. The largest number of structures. Their quality of equipment and ~ their reputation in the Metropolitan and indeed the Minnesota area and the Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 20 ..""" fact that they're almost located out our back door. The service we receive from Landscape Structures is just impecable. So with that, it is my recommendation to go ahead and accept the proposals from Earl F. Anderson and Landscape Structures in the amount of $10,000.00 and $12,000.00 respectivefully for play equipment purchase for South Lotus Lake Park and Sunset Ridge Park. Schroers: It appears to me that you've done your homework on this Todd and I'm prepared to entertain a recommendation. Lash: Can I ask him a question first? Schroers: Certainly. Lash: I like the way that you did two different age groups since they are close to each other but I just wanted to ask, how you decided which one should be in which area? Did you have any kind of input from neighborhoods or did you have any idea that one particular area has more of the smaller children? Hoffman: Basically what I used is my inclination in that the area adjacent to South Lotus Lake Park is an older portion of the city. Tends to have some established homes. Established residents. Thus older children. Sunset Ridge or Lake Susan Hills West is very new. The type of families that are moving in there are very young. You need to approach play equipment as you say from the 8 different age levels and it is then our intention to go ahead with the second phase. Meet the needs of that other ~. age group but it was just to, in my opinion, the route to go this first go around. Dave? Koubsky: Yeah, that makes sense. Lash: The way it is? Okay. And then the only other thing was on the Lotus Lake one where you have ages 6 to 12 for Phase 1. Would it be possible pricewise to put in the swings instead of the diggers? Would that be a comparable switch or not? The diggers I think are more in line with the younger children and I think the swings would get more useage both from young and old. I always like to see the swings going up if they can. Hoffman: At South Lotus Lake? Lash: At Lotus, yeah. I don't know how those things compare in price. Hoffman: A 3 unit swingset of that nature, free standing is $1,105.00. The two super scoop diggers are somewhat less than that but we certainly could, I'm not sure what else that's small that could be pulled out of there. Lash: I really liked the configuration of this. The 6 to 12 and if it meant pulling something else out then I guess I wouldn't want to mess around with it because I like it the way it is. I just thought if it was a comparable switch, I would be in favor of doing that. ..."." ,...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 21 Hoffman: I'll take a look at that. I believe the super scoop diggers come in around $350.00 apiece so we'd be a few hundred dollars short. $300.00 to $400.00 short. Again, in the 1992 budget, although we may not be able to fund the entire second phase, $1,000.00 to pick up a swingset at that time may be appropriate. Swings are eternal fun. Everybody can identify with swings. I agree with you. Schroers: Okay. Are we ready for a motion? Robinson: I make a motion that we recommend that the City Council accept the price quotes from Earl F. Anderson and Associaties for $10,000.00 and $12,000.00 for play equipment on South Lotus and Sunset Ridge Park. Schroers: Is there a second? Pemrick: Second. Robinson moved, Pemrick seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council accept the price quotes from Earl F. Anderson and Associaties for $10,000.00 and $12,000.00 for play equipment on South Lotus Lake Park and Sunset Ridge Park, respectively. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Lash: Just a side note on that Todd. I did like the fact that you did .~. send that out for bids. I just think that's always a good idea. Erhart: Yes Todd. You're a thrifty shopper. ORDINANCE AMENDMENT - NO GLASS CONTAINERS WITHIN PARKS. Hoffman: Again, this item has a past history of discussion at the Commission level. We've talked about it. It's always been the practice to try to prohibit or discourage glass containers within the city parks but there's never been a city ordinance as stated in this memo. So acting on Commissioner Lash's inquiry at the joint meeting as to what the particular status of that city code was, I went ahead and did some further research into this... (There was a tape change during the staff report. The quality of the recording is poor of the following discussion so it's hard to hear exactly what is being said.) Lash: Since I'm the one who brought it up and it's basically, I was just asking the question. I wasn't necessarily saying that I felt one way or the other. I think it would be nice if it would help to solve the problem but if it isn't going to help the problem, then I don't know if it's worth bothering. If people don't enforce it and people don't follow it. Is it worth even putting it on the books? I don't know. I guess I'm interested in other people's opinions. Andrews: Todd, how big of a glass problem in the park did you have last year? ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 22 -' Hoffman: Glass within city parks is just like an ongoing problem. Every time I'm on site at a park waiting to meet somebody, I can spend my entire time picking up glass fragments... So it's a real problem. You talk about maintenance costs. Maintenance dollars to have those people there on site as they're mowing and pushing around picnic tables, having to stop and pick up glass bottles. It's just a nightmare. Schroers: I would like to see an ordinance for no g~ass. I know that that's an enforcement issue that we probably haven't dealt with. For one thing when people, the type of people that are out there breaking glass in the park and also keeping an eye out for the authorities and when the people that come in there that could address that situation, they don't find it until they're looking the other way driving out and then... It is probably a difficult thing to enforce and I think that an officer might have a hard time justifying why he is... I think it's a hard issue to address. I guess we can't put up signs pertaining to glass unless we really do have an ordinance to back it up but I think that it's just one of those general educational process to get people to be more considerate of the park and the environment. I think employees, part time, summertime, seasonal employees, the maintenance people or anyone that happens to see someone abusing or not using glass or any containers or garbage in an acceptable manner, should have the right to stop and at least offer direction that would be appropriate. Pemrick: Is it mainly pop bottles or beer bottles? Because if it's beer bottles, that's already addressed... ........ Lash: It's not illegal. Pemrick: Oh it isn't? Robinson: We've got a litter law don't we or the State of Minnesota does? I mean at least it gives you the right to go do something if you see somebody littering. Lash: You know the thing that I think happens is the teenagers and the... at night and nobody's out at the beach during the middle of the day when people are there smashing bottles around. I mean you just don't see that happen but it happens. You go in there in the morning and it's there. The only thing that I'm thinking maybe it would help, there are perfectly common sense people out there who go to the beach and they bring the mineral water or whatever and they put their bottles in the garbage just like they should but then at night, maybe when the kids come, they take them out. Maybe it's not even bottles the kids have brought themselves but they can get them out of the garbage and smash them or maybe it's racoons even knocking the garbage over or whatever so even if well meaning people who would put them in the garbage. If they just went in the garbage to start with, maybe that would help cut down. I don't know. Robinson: I think you could take a shot at writing something up myself. Koubsky: How costly and involved is that? --' ",.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 23 Hoffman: Very little cost involved. Schroers: How much involvement for the City Council to amend it? Hoffman: It's just two meetings of the ordinance amendment. And any discussion they would like to entertain. Andrews: Would they be looking for a presentation since it was our idea? Hoffman: No. Basically an ordinance amendment of this type would be put on the agenda and if they pulled it off for any type of discussion, staff at that time would answer any questions they had. Schroers: Well let's go for it. At least then we'll be able to put up a sign. Koubsky: ...meeting about a possible park ranger or park patrol. There again though too, I think during the day it's probably not abused...glass, I don't think much of it's broken during the day. Maybe it does. Schroers: We do have the CSO's. Do their hours extend beyond that as a normal park hours? Hoffman: Yes...off peak hours to take a look at that situation. ,.... Schroers: Okay. Koubsky: It would be a thing though where we would be banning glass so if we do get a patrol out there and they saw people at a picnic or whatever using glass containers, they could issue some sort of warning. Hoffman: Again, that's all part of the educational process. Not only educate the public but educate our CSO's and Public Safety Department and get the word down... That can all take place on an administrative level. Schroers: Good. Anything further on that? CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM UPDATES: A. SOUTH LOTUS LAKE BOAT ACCESS DRAINAGE AND IMPROVEMENT PROJECT. Hoffman: Item 8, Capital Improvement Update is real good news. 8(a), South Lotus Lake Boat Access improvement project was presented at City Council last evening. As you noted, if you went through the report, the low bid came in at $32,611.00. Just over $6,000.00 higher than the engineer's estimate. There are reasons stated for that discrepancy. Mainly the fact that this is somewhat of a small project. There's the unit, curbing unit, excavation units of asphalting of dirt work and seeding all incorporated in the project but they're all fairly small. The contractors however still have to bring in all the equipment to complete that small segment, thus the price...subsequently slightly higher than the engineer's estimate. However, 7 bidders did bid. Real competitive bids. $32,000.00 ",.... to $41,000.00. Plus or minus a $9,000.00 difference within the bids so the Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 24 ....", low bid did represent a fair and equitable bid for the City and the City Council did go ahead and approve the award the bid to Kusske Construction from Chaska for this project. B. CITY CENTER PARK. Hoffman: As stated in my memo there, we are continuing to work with the playground advisory committee. That format has worked out very well. They have done their work very expediciously. Completed things quickly and I have met with Mark Koegler and Scott Harri from Van Doren-Hazard- Stallings. They will be the architectural engineering firm addressing... architectural engineering items in here that they to address by a professional firm as to grade, drainage, and those types of things. Especially as it deals with the tennis court. Taking a look at it and a professional assessment of what type of refurbishment or remodeling job on those tennis courts would solve our problems. They're formulating those and I would anticipate that we would bring some of that information back to the commission...and playground advisory commission in the Month of May. And then move forward as quickly as possible on these projects so again the majority of summer play at the tennis courts could take place on the new surface and not the present cracked and... Any questions on either of those projects before I move on? C. HERMAN FIELD PARK. VERBAL; PLANS AND SPECIFICATIONS PRESENTED TO THE CITY COUNCIL ON 4/22/91. Hoffman: Hearing none. Item 8(c). Herman Field Park, plans and ~ specifications were presented to the City Council last evening. There were no questions. It was a consent item for the Council. Again, the plans and specs were separated but one main project, installation of the roadway and the grading and then three alternate bids for installation of the trails. Installation of bituminous surface in the roadway and then installation of a boardwalk. Those alternates were put in there so at the time that the bids come back, we can go ahead and pick and choose which alternates... underneath that $50,000.00 budget figure which we're working with. So advertising for bids is approved. Those will be placed in this coming week's Villager and the Construction Bulletin. We should have an opening of bids sometime in May and the eventual construction date sometime in June to begin construction. One little catch that we have incorporated in there. Not only did we receive the 40 foot permanent easement from the... but for the construction of that road we need to look at temporary easements. Temporary construction easements. Being 20 feet additional temporary easements on the Schiferli property and then 25 feet on the Lang property for the construction of that roadway. That will entail grading and then removal of trees up to 6 inches in diameter on their property. _ I have contacted Marcia and she did not seem to have any objection to that. I have not been able to reach Betty or Ken Lang at this stage but look forward to doing so in the next day or so so I can get an idea of what their position on their temporary easement is. Lash: One question on that one Todd. Remember when the residents were here last time and there was a gentleman who had some concern about the easements up from the cul-de-sac. I can't remember what the name of the ..." ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 25 street is up there, and he wanted to know specifically where it was and he wanted to... Hoffman: Oh, on the cul-de-sac on Piper Ridge? Lash: Yeah. Did anything come of that? Hoffman: Again as I expressed that evening, I'm uncomfortable going up there and just marking that easement. The easement was taken for the purpose of maintaining a trailway. If that is not done, I'm uncomfortable marking the easement to allow people to then just walk on the easement because an easement does exist there. It's not a marked and established use as a trailway so I would not encourage use of that to access the park. He obviously had an interest in doing so but I know the Commission, some of the members who have been on the commission for a while have taken a look at that and talked to the homeowners and at that time decided to not go ahead with the development of the trail access at that point. If it's the commission's wish to go ahead and readdress that issue, we can certainly do so. The trail easement that's existing there is a 10 foot wide easement on Lot 7, inbetween Lots 6 and 7 running parallel to the common lot line. Schroers: That easement is being maintained as a mowed yard right now and the people are using it as yard space and it would be like, we would be encouraging people to run through your maintained yard. J!III"""-. Lash: I'm not supporting it. I'm just wondering what the man ever did with it because he seemed to be pretty determined in his interest and I wondered if you had followed up on it. You didn't follow up? That's fine with me. Schroers: At the edge of the maintained yard space, it drops off to a point where it's not even passable as an access. Lash: I was out there and I agree totally but I just wanted to know if you had done anything with it because I agreed with Todd's comments that night and I would hate to see people using that. D. LAKE ANN PARK PICNIC/RECREATION SHELTER. VERBAL; INITIAL PRESENTATION TO CITY COUNCIL 4/22/91. Hoffman: A presentation was made to the City Council on an initial presentation and then a basis for a capital improvement amendment to include an additional $90,000.00 to the $110,000.00 which is originally approved by the Commission and the Council for the construction of the actual building and then $100,000.00 for the addition of the improvements of the utilities would be funded under the sewer and water expansion fund. The City Council was very receptive to the building. They agreed that Lake Ann Park is a quality park and developing it, continuing development in such a manner as this park shelter would, they thought very beneficial. They did squeeze the dollar sign per se. What they would like to see staff do is go ahead and refine the cost figures on both the building itself and then the utilities. Bring that back to them at a meeting, second City Council meeting in May. Richard Wing and other members of the Council also ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 26 --' expressed a concern that they wanted to feel very comfortabl~ that this was a public improvement project which the citizens as a whole accepted for this price tag which it has attached to it: They appealed to the editor of the Villager to go ahead and publish the information to see if they could get a feel from the citizentry as to how they feel about that particular project. They did mention a possibility of a public hearing. They did not take formal action that night to call a public hearing on that particular item so we will continue to investigate that with the Mayor and other Councilmembers to see if they wish to proceed at public hearings or if they're going to be satisfied with the response they get back from residents as the publicity on t~e particular park shelter construction goes out. Lash: We never had a public hearing did we? But it was published on the agenda? Hoffman: Correct. At least three times in 1991. Erhart: Do people normally when it's published in the paper like that with comments? Do they call you and tell you if they're against it? Hoffman: Sure. In fact I think we all, we realize what Lake Ann is to this community but sometimes we even underestimate it. I was at a, made a presentation this morning to a Mom's Morning Out group. One particular individual moved out of the Rice Marsh Lake area in Chanhassen Estates to get away from having to cross TH 5. She moved in to, she and her family ~ moved into the Saddlebrook development. The reason she cited for that is specifically Lake Ann Park. Lake Ann Park is what kept them in the city. They had limited access to it from that side of TH 5 and she as well stated that we can at least get to the park now but even a more improved trail system could get us in... So at times we underestimate the value of our park systems. E. LAKE SUSAN PARK. VERBAL. Hoffman: As soon as the road restrictions come off, it is the intent of Finley Bros. Construction to go ahead and begin moving back in for the construction of the boat access area. Permits have been applied for from the Watershed District and the DNR for the installation of the boat access and installation of the bridge across the creek area. To maintain that trail segment between the park itself and then eventually the Lake Susan Hills West and Chanhassen Hills neighborhood. The wheels are all turning and anticipating a quick finishing to that project. Based on the performance of which Finley Bros. performed, went ahead and showed us last fall in the 2 1/2 months they were there. The park looked very good today and I think by mid-June to late June it would be fully complete and moved out of the area. Tentative plans are to go ahead and plan a type of grand opening sometime in the month of August for Lake Susan Park for the city residents. Robinson: That's a nice basketball court down there. Boy, my kids love it. ...", ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 27 COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS: Robinson: Just a comment. Last year we policed some of the parks, at least in the downtown area. Picked up junk. I walked by Pauly's or Kenny's parking lot every morning and I'm appalled at the beer bottles and junk laying out there. I think that's true allover downtown. Can we get together? It wouldn't have to be a massive effort or big deal like last year. If we did it on a Friday evening. Ruegemer: .. .do it like even on a Thursday night.. .or Friday night. Sometime next week. Robinson: It's getting kind of late almost. Lash: Well when's the clean up day? Isn't that Saturday? Pemrick: Who did the clean up along TH 101? That was really great... Hoffman: You've noticed the designations by the DOT of blue signs. I think this past weekend was the weekend for everybody to do that because TH 5 as well... ,.... Pemrick: I was driving and I was getting all disgusted because I thought somebody had thrown their garbage out and everything was neatly piled along and stacked. Erhart: I wanted to know who it was because it looked... Pemrick: Yeah. It really looks clean and nice. Hoffman: Just take a look at the signs. The 2 mile segment right here in town is. Erhart: That church. Lash: Out by Lake Ann and west is, the one out by Minnewashta. Hoffman: All sorts of people jumped onto that band wagon. This one section is two parents and two children. So a family of four takes care of that 2 mile stretch of highway 5. Schroers: Does anyone else have a commission presentation? Andrews: I do. And this came a concern after the presentation on Bluff Creek. I guess hearing some of the urgency of that project, I feel strongly that we really are going to have to aggressively take some action. We have talked about a sub-committee or a separate working group. Maybe not even specifically involving the Park Commission...and I don't know where that starts. If it's at the City Councilor Park Board has authority to create an entity to deal with that project. I think it's too big to be handled on kind of an occasional basis. It needs continuing action. I ~ also think it needs to be a separate entity so as I mentioned before, if there's funding. A source or a designated target for funding so people Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 28 ..."", that are interested know that the money they give is going to be used for that project. I don't know how we can begin on that. What we can do on it but that's a big concern I feel. Pemrick: Some of Gayle Vogel's comments at the end there were very alarming to me. I didn't realize that they were moving on that so fast. Andrews: Deer Brook? Lash: Is that something that the Planning Commission could address sort of ,on an emergency basis as far as maybe revising the setback variance or whatever the ordinance is? Hoffman: They certainly could. Again, if those lots back up to the creek there, the only enforcement currently in place would be the 75 foot setback from the centerline of the creek. Lash: I thought Jim's idea was really a good one in that instead of going footage from the creek, go footage from the ridge or something. Have them look at what they think would be really a safe amount. That needs to be addressed right away before these lots are sold and people are going to be coming in for their building permits. Erhart: Todd's going to be talking to Paul... Andrews: I'd just like to see a way to provide Perry Dean and Erik Roth ~ with an officially endorsed body that they can channel their energies into. Those guys are so incredibly dedicated to this whole concept and I'd like to see a way that they can put that energy to use and to give other people a way to coordinate with them. We're talking a major project. Funding is going to become the big issue. Where's the money going to come from? How are we going to do it? I think the quicker we can move on that, the better are chances are going to be. Schroers: Well you know, as dedicated as those guys seem to be towards this project, I mean they have already initiated a lot of interest and a good amount of effort in putting together their slides and their presentation and I don't think one would have to sell the program too hard to ask them to be a part of the committee or organize the committee along with people who have very strong feelings who have the interest and are willing to sit down and say okay. We need to start somewhere. Let's organized something, Let's set it up and I think it's got to be a committee of people that have the interest and who also have the time or enough interest to make the time to get into it and go to work on it. I think that it's more than worthwhile and it's very important but I've stretched myself about as far as my little mind can handle at this point and I'm not willing to take on anything more because I don't think I could do it justification. But I think if there is anyone that feels strongly enough, contaet these people and get involved. Say hey let's sit down and get together and talk about this and draw up a game plan and go to work on it. """"" ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 29 Andrews: My personal recommendation would be that the City Council create a specific group to work specifically on that project. I agree with Larry that I think a lot of us are over volunteered already and I think it needs the attention of a very motivated group with one goal in mind. I think that's what it's going to take to get it done. Lash: The big problem is going to be, like you said, the money but I agree the City Council, if they could maybe condense their presentation a little bit. Maybe it would be a good move for them to give their presentation to the City Council. It's an impressive show and I don't know how anyone could watch that and not be supportive of preserving that area. Hoffman: We'll go ahead and see if this can percolate up to the City Council level. Obviously when it reaches them, they have a variety of long range, large issues which they're taking a look at. This would be one of perhaps a dozen. So we'll see what becomes of the field trips. Hopefully we can get some of the Council members there. We'll take a look at where this heads with the Planning Commission. Continue to nuture it along. See what eventually flourishes of the project. Absolutely it's going to have to be some type of creative long, long range type of project. You just start taking a look at the figures and millions and millions of dollars start popping into your head as far as actual acquisition costs. You know 600 acres at even $5,000.00 an acre is, that's 3 million dollars. ;II"" Erhart: Todd, can't we acquire any of it through development? Hoffman: Sure. But then again we're playing the paradox of, you know if you're going to develop a huge residential area adjacent to this thing so you have the right to take 10 acres in the valley, we certainly can do that but that has to progress naturally with development. Schroers: And then the development is going to want water slides going down. Robinson: But he did bring up the conservation easement which doesn't sound expensive at all. Lash: I don't want to get into that tonight because it's getting late but I would like to have a better explanation of how that works. I don't think I'm real comfortable with all the in's and out's of that. Schroers: And I don't know Todd if you have an interest in the trust for public land. If you have seen this or if you know if you have a copy or if you would like mine to look at, I'd be happy to give it to you because... Assumption Creek you know but when changes were made, that just sort of got on the back burner somewhere somehow. I guess that it would be interesting to find out how active this organization is. I've checked into it enough to find out that there was a representative of this organization in Walker, Minnesota and I think there was also another one in Wisconsin somewhere. Hoffman: I recall conversations with you concerning that. "....., Schroers: This really appears to be the ticket. They've got it right Park and Rec Commission Meeting April 23, 1991 - Page 30 ......" here. Their purpose is to preserve open space and provide avenues for acquisition. That's what we're looking for. Hoffman: Correct. Lash: I'm glad you brought that up again Jim. Was that you? Andrews: Yeah. I would think if they had an entity that people could donate money to, that's going to become important. If they took that presentation to parent groups or whatever and put the hat out for $100.00, they'll get it. People are relunctant to give money when they don't know who they're giving it to. If they write out a check to Erik Roth, that's a lot scarier than writing it out to the Bluff Creek Preservation League or whatever it's going to be. Schroers: Okay. If there isn't any more under Commission presentations, then is there anything on the Administrative Packet? Lash: I have a question on the Pheasant Hills survey. Have they been pouring in? Hoffman: Yes. They came in I would think about 50% response. Lash: And how about on the letter to Dave Clough? The rejection of the play area funding. Is that going to? .....,tI Hoffman: Just diminish the overall project somewhat. We'll take a look at the tennis courts. We're now looking at an overlay situation. Not a replacement. And then as well the west playground. All the site preparation will still be done but the eventual new piece of equipment will be just that much smaller. Lash: Okay. Robinson moved, Lash seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 10=15 p.m.. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Recreation Coordinator Prepared by Nann Opheim -""