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PRC 1991 06 25 ".... ,.... ",..... CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JUNE 25, 1991 Chairman Schroers called the meeting to order at 7:32 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Andrews, Wendy pemrick, Larry Schroers, Dave Koubsky, and Jan Lash MEMBERS ABSENT: Dawne Erhart and Curt Robinson STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Coordinator and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Andrews moved, Pemrick seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated May 21, 1991 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. DESIGNATION OF AN OFFICIAL LITTLE LEAGUE FIELD. Todd Hoffman: This item is an accumulation of discussions that have taken place amongst the Atheltic Association, Board of Directors, citizens within the community, the Director of the Little League programs in other communities which our discussions and conversations with the Department over about the past 3-3 1/2 years. Essentially since my appointment to the City. With the increase in population in the city however, parents would like to see more of the games. They're not so opposed to participating in south Tonka Little League or East Tonka Little League or something of that nature. They're not opposed to that combination but they'd like to see more of the home games or more games being played in Chanhassen. Unfortunately in the Little League category we don't have an official Little League field. In the past they have made use of the South Tonka Little League program which a majority of our youth participate in at the Little League level. Have made use of Field ~3 at Lake Ann and this year they're making use of the North Lotus Lake Park, the field up there. But it's just Freeman Field in the City of Shorewood. They came up with some pretty nice fields up there so they're playing on official grass infields and fields made especially for Little League up there and it's just not quite as exciting coming down here and in essence playing second fiddle to some of the use of the ballfield. As the letter states there, Chris Polster's brought that request forward in a written proposal. In a written request. I think it's justified. In taking a look at the fields in which we currently have, pinpointing a few at Lake Ann seems to make the most sense. Field ~1 is being used a large majority of the time currently for baseball. With 3 additional fields added, we handle our adult softball load for the present and then... So with that I have nothing further to add to the report. Recommendation to pursue development of Field ~2 into a Little League field stands to... Lash: You don't foresee any problems with space then for adults? Would it just always be for Little League? Hoffman: Up until the point when we would go ahead and develop Bandimere Community Park and can take some of the load off of that. Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 2 -' Lash: What I meant was. Hoffman: Currently? . Lash: Yeah. If it was designated Little League, then there wouldn't be any other play on it? Hoffman: No. The fences would be shorten to 180 feet. The infield would be torn out. Grass infield would be put in and would be used for Little League only. Lash: How often do you think that would be used? Hoffman: I would anticipate probably 4 nights a week and some weekend use. Lash: I'm going to have a Little Leaguer next year so this is of particular interest to me. I have just over the years heard from quite a few different people who have put their kids in the different programs and it's been my own opinion that the South Tonka one versus the Chaska one, the Chaska one is much cheaper. I think it's maybe not as far to drive. You wouldn't have to go to so many different locations but I guess my main question is, do you think that we would have enough kids to just have our own here? Just have that field be for. Hoffman: Chanhassen league? Lash: Yeah. Our own league. That would be playing just their own teams ~ and not playing outside. Hoffman: I've had that, or people have brought that up that they'd like to see that done. The other day when Jeff Bros the President, current President of the Athletic Association was in, we discussed that. He thinks that that would be a detriment to the current program just because then they wouldn't have enough participants in their program to make it a quality program. We wouldn't have enough participants in our program currently. You could come up with 4 teams and you playa round robin schedule or something of that nature but the discussion is out there. We won't push one way or the other. It really comes from some networking among the parents and the people who are coordinating the program and that type of thing. Lash: But it would be used, if was designated Little League, it would be used by the South Tonka/Chanhassen League? Hoffman: Chiefly by that league but again if we're noticing that a large majority or high percentage of them are going down to the Chaska program, they could certainly play games there as well. Lash: I'd certainly be in favor of when we get to the point when we could support having our own Little League Association, just doing that. Hoffman: I think everybody is. I'm not sure it's at that point. ...", ,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 3 Schroers: Do we have any new fields coming on line in any other of the parks? I know that Bandimere is still a ways off but what I'm wondering is if we can avoid reworking a field that we already have and designate a new special field for that so we can keep what we have existing and give them something totally new. Hoffman: The two new fields that are coming up with be the field at Sunset Ridge in Lake Susan Hills West which will be in a neighborhood setting. Currently it will be removed, far removed from any roads because it's on the opposite end of the park from where the pedestrian walkways are going right now. The other one would be at Curry Farms Park where there will be a neighborhood ballfield installed there. Schroers: Probably would be parking problems with those. Hoffman: With those two and again, they're in neighborhood parks which we're trying to get away from putting organized play into neighborhood parks. Curry Farms has an additional problem in that the lay of the land is so low and the soil type and soil conditions are so poor and it retains moisture that if you have to count on that field for organized play, you couldn't. Schroers: Okay, and Lake Susan is being utilized by the older baseball players so there's no time to schedule in there? ,.... Hoffman: No, it's been designed as a Babe Ruth/Legion baseball. It's an official baseball field which is much larger than Little League. Lash: So how about #1. Wasn't #1 filling the. Schroers: They're playing baseball on Field #1 now. Lash: Yeah but wasn't that until Lake Susan was ready? Hoffman: We're using both consistently. Lash: Was that the purpose to start with? I was thinking that one was just supposed to fill in the gap until Lake Susan field was ready. Hoffman: We've seen so much increase in the Babe Ruth and Legion ball that they're using it. I don't know, maybe Jerry can probably comment on how many nights a week. Ruegemer: Okay, the 13 to 15 year old baseball players are currently using two nights a week at Lake Ann. Monday and Thursday nights. Two games a night. 6:00 and 8:15. And at Lake Susan, they're getting games in for both the AAU and the Legion is also playing at Lake Susan field at least 2 nights a week plus they're using the Legion fi~ld over on TH 5 next to the. Legion at least 1 or 2 times a week. That's just for our initial fields and they're also using the Freeman Field. "" Schroers: And also Field #1 is the larger portion so you wouldn't want to scale that field down to accommodate. Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 4 ...", Hoffman: No. Andrews: I'd like to speak in favor of Lake Ann as well because we're .putting in our new park building in there and this brings another activity that would be targeting more to the younger kids which I think is something we're maybe a little bit lacking there now. So it's an attraction for the kids to come for a tournament or whatever. The parents have a place to cook and entertain themselves. That would kind of fit well with our kind of family concept. Hoffman: Just as an example this evening, Fields 4, 5 and 6 are being used. Fields 2 and 3 are being used for Women's softball and Field 1 is empty. There's the capacity there. In some leagues, Industrial, Men's Open, we've reached that capacity sooner than in other leagues. But scheduling, we still have scheduling on 4 fields and then even bringing in Field #1 for additional softball fields on your busier nights. We have flexibility in capacity to continue 2-3 years in the adult softball. Schroers: I know that it really shouldn't matter but I can't help but feel that we're going to get some controversy or static from the adult teams for the logic of building 3 new fields and then taking 1 away. It does seem to be the most reasonable thing to do at this time. And you're proposing that this is, all the modifications are made for next season? Hoffman: Correct. Lash: Do you have any idea how much this is going to cost? ...", Hoffman: Again, I didn't get in depth with those figures prior to our budget proposal. Lash: If it's a lot of money and then we think it's maybe only going to be for a couple of years until we can do Bandimere or... Schroers: Do you think that is the scenario that we would convert it to accommodate Little League for a period of time like 2 to 3 years, whatever and then at some point in time convert it back to softball again? Hoffman: Potentially we could convert it back. I would think the timeframe's going to be more like 4 or 5 years and then at that time we can take a look at where the increase is. Our youth program's just expanding heads and tails and do we need to keep it. Retain that field as such or are the adult leagues getting to the point where we could use that field and take...softball leagues. Pick up the slack in the youth. Schroers: Well whatever expenditure is involved in this is much cheaper than trying to develop something new if all we ha~e to do is move the fence in and grass the infield. Hoffman: Potentially the outfield fences, currently there could be left and just bring in a permanent temporary fence and take out the infield. So depending on what our work schedule turns out to be for the summer of 1992, ...."", ~. Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 5 it may be an in-house project or it may be contracted out but it's the dollars you're talking aren't excessive. Lash: I do think you'll find that in the next year or two there's going to be a lot more Little League players in Chan just because there's such a bulge in the enrollment right now that's going into 4th grade so next year there's going to be an increase. I'm assuming, unless the Victoria kids go to Chaska or somewhere then that could affect it. Hoffman: I would think that it's only going to be a positive thing and maybe some negative feedback from the adult leagues but as far as being able to then have a place for the youth and a place for the parents to go and playa real game of Little League should be exciting. Koubsky: When you convert this back do you see it going back to softball or possibly a legion field? It seems like we have a little more Legion activity. Hoffman: Probably back to softball because the potential for an additional Legion field at Bandimere is very good. Lash: But the ultimate goal is to have adult activities at Lake Ann and then the youth activities at Bandimere. ~ Hoffman: There's been discussion that it would be nice to have that reversed because Lake Ann is more accessible but at that point, it would really be bringing havoc on our present facility. Trying to turn it from adult to a youth facility where if we just create a new youth facility and do it correctly from the start. So it doesn't hold much merit, that argument. 5chroers: Okay. If there isn't any further discussion on this, does anyone care to make the recommendation? Lash: I move that we designate Field #2 at Lake Ann Park as a Little League Field in 1992. 5chroers: Is there a second? Andrews: I'd like to see if we can maybe, I want to make sure that we have a comeback before construction goes on this. I think we would have to to allocate funding wouldn't we Todd? Hoffman: Yes. Andrews: Then I second it. Lash moved, Andrews seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission designate Field #2 at Lake Ann Park as an official Little League Field beginning the 1992 season and instruct staff to estimate the associated costs of this field transformation. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ",... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 6 ....",; COMPREHENSIVE PARK RULES SIGN. Hoffman: This comes about from a variety of different reasons. Basically because the commission has a sincere interest in seeing that park users know what the rules are and what they can and cannot do within the parks. We're also beginning to acquire a greater amount of park locations and people are using them consistently so I think it's a fine time to go ahead and implement a comprehensive park rules sign. A sign which is basic. Very straight forward but which is consistent throughout the park system so we can post it all entrance points to all parks again to educate our youth and citizens as to what the park rules and ordinances of the city ordinances are in regard to parks. There's some items listed there which potentially should be addressed. Again, the pets and glass containers which is the new ordinance. Park hours. Alcoholic beverages. Driving on the grass. Motorized vehicles. Refuse disposal, etc.. Attached on the back there a photo. Copy of a photo which was a park courtesy sign which is posted at Lake Ann. Just for your information. In thinking about this item and then also a list of our park rules as they are shown in the Chanhassen City Codes. This evening I would hope that we would go through and identify the key components to this rule sign. The items which are more or less unchanging, which in your opinion you}ll be looking to change that particular rule in any near future. Throw out some potential wordings for the sign and work through that and come up with again some costs so we can include this item in the 1992 budget process. Schroers: Well just about eveything is included on the copy here. ...,.", Koubsky: The things that I see are missing is one we should probably add with glass. Except for 3.2 beer, the loss of malt beverage doesn't really differentiate. Lash: And that was just addressed by City Council and I believe it was changed. Hoffman: That's why this sign was pulled because we had a problem with it. The definition there. Lash: So how can we word that? Hoffman: No alcoholic beverages except you can either use layman terms, except beer or alcohol or else malt beverages. Again it's something where do you want to include it on your sign and advertise that you can drink in the park or, you need to be clear but because then if you do not include it on the sign people wonder if they can or if they can't. Koubsky: If it said no alcoholic beverage and you didn't include it, it's kind of be a misrepresentation of the law. Lash: If we put it we have to include it but. Andrews: No liquor. '"""" ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 7 Schroers: I think they pretty much have in here the way it has to be. No alcoholic beverages except if you want to say malt liquor or if you want to say beer. Koubsky: You could support the glass law and say canned beer allowed. Pemrick: There you go. Lash: Canned alcoholic beverages. What other kind of alcoholic beverages come in a can? Schroers: That's exactly what I was going to ask. Is there such a thing as a hard liquor that comes in a can? Lash: Can you get those kind of pre-mixed like. Hoffman: Canned wine coolers. Koubsky: Is a wine cooler a malt beverage? Hoffman: No. Koubsky: So that wouldn't be allowed? ~ Hoffman: Canned beer allowed? It's more positive. Pemrick: I like that. Koubsky: It's good advertising. Lash: Only. Koubsky: Only canned beer. Lash: Maybe that would be a way to do it. When we put no glass containers and then put only canned beer and other beverages allowed. Andrews: It's confusing though. Lash: Well yeah except for it kind of hides the beer in with some other things so it's not like we're advertising that you can bring all the beer you want. Schroers: How about restricted alcoholic beverages, canned beer only. That's sort of signifies that other types of hard liquor are not all'owed but that beer types in a can is. Hoffman: Any fav0rites yet? Andrews: I like the restricted. I think that's more descriptive. It implies that we're really being, everything's prohibited except for beer. I don't think we should tie the glass and the can together. Otherwise somebody's going to say, well it said canned beverages and I've got my ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 8 .....", whiskey in my can here. and this sign says no. You just said that was okay. This sign says yes Go ahead and prosecute me. See what happens. Schroers: How about restricted alcoholic beverages, canned beer only? Is that confusing or is that kind clear enough? Andrews: Alcoholic beverages restricted to canned beer only. Schroers: There you go. That's better. Pemrick: Alcohol restricted. You don't have to say beverages. Just alcohol restricted. Schroers: Alcohol restricted to canned beer only. Yep. Lash: So that's not going to create a problem for the kegs? Schroers: A keg is a big can. Hoffman: Protecting those interests. Alcoholic beverages restricted to canned beer only or alcohol? Pemrick: Alcohol restricted to canned beer. Hoffman: Alcoholic beverages is a nicer term than alcohol? Pemrick: Do you have enough room on the sign for all that? """"'" Andrews: It can be as big as he wants. Hoffman: That's two lines. It's probably going to take two lines anyway. Pemrick: Well if you're already taking two lines you may as well. Schroers: I think that the beverages sort of. Hoffman: Softens it. Schroers: Yeah. Yeah. It does soften it. If you just say alcohol that seems kind of harsh. You want to get the message across. Andrews: You're just going to say glass containers prohibited? Schroers: Yes. Hoffman: Pets? This is one which is a little shakey because at least I'm taking calls and we're all very aware that people aren't opposed to not having their pets at the beach or not having their pet at the play area. They're a little less, when you get to the softball game, they like to bring them because they don't think they're bothering anybody but really when they're walking through the parks and walking on the trails, that's when they think it's excessive that you can't have your dog in the park. .....",. J!I"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 9 Schroers: I guess I have to agree with that. We have been aggravated by a dog out in Lake Ann Park when we've been trying to practice softball. There was a German Shepherd running around unsupervised. Out of control that was being a nuisance and that you definitely don't want. But on the other hand, when you have your dog under control and you're going through the park to complete a route on the trail system, that should be allowed. Koubsky: You'd have to change the law. Hoffman: Yep, we'd have to change the ordinance if you wanted to go that way and then again the difficulties. I believe the reason it's the way it is now is because once you open it up, it's very difficult with our present enforcement system. Lash: Could we have leashed pets on trail areas only? Andrews: The other problem you have like in our neighborhood unfortunately the fringes of the park are used as pet dumping ground. Unless you just say your pet's prohibited, you're still going to have people who are going to walk their dogs and let them take their dump on the grass and walk them back out. They feel like that's nature. It's not my yard. And there's really no way to draw a line that's fair. The fairest thing to do is just say no. Then you don't have to argue about which was a good intent and which wasn't. ,.... Hoffman: We'd have a very difficult time trying to, these...leashed dogs or leashed dogs on trails, the parks would be open to dogs. Right now the people know they're not supposed to be there. When they're there they have that in the back of their mind that they're not supposed to be there and maybe next time they're going to leave the dog at home. We didn't feel comfortable when we had our dog along. Andrews: It won't be a popular sign. I can tell you that now. People in our neighborhood, there's a walking trail that goes right along the edge of the park and there are probably 20 people a night that walk their dog down there. Lash: They're there already. Hoffman: They're there in certain places. Lash: And for some people it stops them and for some people it doesn't so it isn't going to make any difference if you put them on all. Some people are still going to do it. Schroers: I just happen to have a whole lot of experience in this area. We have designated dog trails allover and they're signed. At certain times of the year different trails are designated and there are probably percentage wise half of the people that pay attention to that and the other half of the people go where they want to go. Our observation is that dogs that are kept under control or on a leash, nobody minds. It doesn't matter where they are. It doesn't matter if they're, well you don't want them running through your picnic area or when you're laying out on the beach but ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 10 ....." a path that goes relatively close to it. If your dog is under control and just passing on the path, no one seems to have an objection to that at all. But as far as enforcing it, you're right. You're not going to enforce it here but I don't think, if you look at how many people walk up and down Kerber on this trail and whether you want to designate that park property or not, I mean they could write tickets out there all night long if you want to designate that as park. It's a parkway and there's just constant dog traffic up and down there all night long. I don't know. I don't think it's fair for people to pay taxes to put in these sidewalk, trails and walkways and say that you can't walk your pet on a trail. Andrews: Then we have to change walk. Lash: I had a very long discussion about this just today with a pet owner and I like dogs. I wish that it would be that every dog owner was responsible and either leash their dog or kept their dog under control and cleaned up after their dog and we could let dogs be in there. The problem is there is the group of people who are not responsible and then they wreck it for everybody. It's not fair but I don't know how else we can control it or enforce it unless we just either say they're allowed and make a free for all or they are not allowed. And so if you're bringing it in, you're doing it knowing that you're potentially opening yourself up for a violation. The other thing is when there is a dog that's around that is a real nuisance and they are allowed, then how do you complain about that? We have that a lot down at Greenwood Shores Park. We just had it the other day. Two dogs that we these people let run loose all the time and it lived ~ .just up a couple houses from the park and they're real obnoxious kind of dogs. They have to come and jump allover you when you're laying on the beach and all the kids and make the kids cry and everything and the owners could care less what is going on down there. And then that's what wrecks it. There's other people who maybe bring their dogs on a leash or jog through or keep their dog tied up over away from everybody. I really do not have a problem with that. But if people see the dogs that are under control and on a leash then all of a sudden they figure well okay, I'm bringing my dog next time and they may not be a responsible owner and that's what wrecks it. Pemrick: But don't you think it'd be controlled in the same way it is in your neighborhood with leashing laws in general? It should apply to the parks too. I mean you have leashing laws in your neighborhood. Your dogs aren't free to run off your lot unless you've got them on a leash. How's that controlled? Same way. You'd call the dog catcher or whatever if there's a nuisance. I supposed if they're...dog control people. I don't know. Schroers: If you know of pet owner or a dog, whe,e it lives and call and complain to the authorities, through public safety or the CSO or whoever happens to be in charge. I did that. I don't remember if it was last year or the year before. A dog that came and attacked us and chased us out into traffic while we were jogging and I called. Had the authorities come out and in 3 days the kennel was gone. That dog house was gone. The dog was gone. It works. If you know the owner of the dog and you have a valid complaint, you can pursue that. And people that don't listen, I mean if --' ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 11 they're warned and it's a repeated thing, you may have to follow up on it a second time but then it's certainly justified in getting a ticket. Andrews: I think the problem we have here is the loss of one thing and we'd like to have it say something else. If the choice is putting an actual sign up that states what the law is or putting a sign up that states what we'd like the law to say, I think we've got to put what the law is and ask the City to change the law. I'd hate to waste the money to put up signs and then turn around and change this item too which I think is one that will be used an awful lot as an enforced rule too. Lash: If you boil it down to the compost factor and we've just now banned glass in trying to keep the parks cleaner and safer for people to walk around and then on the other hand we'd be saying we'd be in favor of having dogs composting allover. Schroers: I think the way to address this may be to leave it the way it is hel-e. No pets allowed in parks which is what you would designate as the park, picnic area, ballfield, beach or whatever and then have a separate sign that's not advertised somewhere that says pets, leashed pets only on trails. ,.... Hoffman: I'm not even sure if we have to go that far. The way it's currently listed, if somebody has their dog on a leash and the CSO comes into the park, they're not going to tag them because they've got their dog in the pa)-k. If this dog's been hanging around the ballfield or the beach for an hour and a half and the owner's hanging around somewhere in the park and somebody calls the CSO, they're going to tag that person so it boils down as well to some common sense type of enforcement. I can see it's somewhat of an emtional issue. We're here as a closed group this evening per se but if you take this to the paper and a public hearing at the Council level, it's going to be opening a Pandora's Box if this gets opened up. Lash: Well not could this, if we say pets, all we've talked about right now are dogs. Hoffman: Cats. Lash: They could open it up, we used to have horses all the time swimming at the beach at Greenwood Shores. I mean what they left behind in the water was disgusting, let me tell you. We didn't like it at all. Koubsky: The ordinance says animals. I think the purpose of these signs is to educate the people on what the ordinances regarding parks are. I like the way it sits. I may say no animals allowed. I don't know if that's too vague but I can throw that out. I don't like the idea of pets in the park. I'm a pet owner but I've got kids and kids are extremely fearful of dogs. I don't like dog droppings. People aren't going to pick that up. I think it's a lot easier to enforce or allow the City to determine how they want to enforce an ordinance. But the purpose of this is to educate the people on what the ordinances are and the ordinance says that there's no pets allowed in parks. It doesn't define if a trail is a ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 12 ....,fIlII park but it says parks so the ordinance leaves interpretation on how the City wants to enforce it. I guess I'd just like to leave it. Andrews: I agree. Lash: So do we want no pets or no animals? Schroers: What kind of an animal would you have in there that's not a pet? Koubsky: Well somebody might have horses. Schroers: But a horse is sort of a pet if it's a recreational riding horse wouldn't you think? Koubsky: Yeah. Lash: So whichever we think. Pets sounds friendlier than. Schroers: I guess I agree with that. I think that's fine too and I don't think it's any secret that I'm a frequent violator of this ordinance and I've not been bothered. I guess until that time I'm happy with things the way they are. Lash: I think ,the people who are conscientious about it are not going to be getting the complaints. So you're right. People don't object to people jogging through with the dog leashed or under control. It's the obnoxious ones who are running around loose that drive everyone crazy. ....." Andrews: In like with this pet ordinance, I don't see anything in here about littering per se. Is there a littering ordinance? Koubsky: It says please do not litter. It doesn't say no littering. Hoffman: I'd have to check. I'm sure there is in another section of the City Code. It's not under City Parks but that's one of the things we could certainly address here. The wording, we've gone with leaving the no out of there? Do we have to have prohibited? Expound on your preferred wording. No pets allowed? Pet prohibited? Lash: No pets allowed. Pemrick: No pets allowed. Hoffman: Straight forward. Okay. Andrews: I think another one for me at least is important is the cars parking on the grass. It seems to be a constant battle, especially last year with the drought. It was really hard on the parks. So it'd be park in designated areas only. Lash: This other one says, please do not park or drive on grass. Andrews: That's probably even better yet. ..""" ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 13 Sch,oers: If we are going to be issuing citations for parking on the grass, that should be included in the sign somehow like park rules will be enforced. Koubsky: But there again, what's a park rule? I don't anybody, this is the first time I've seen these. Nobody's ever looked at these or probably L.Jill ever look. Schroers: Some people walk up and stand there and read the whole' thing and other people don't even, walk right by and don't even know it's there. But we'll have people standing 5 feet away from a sign and it says definitely no parking here and they'll argue why can't they park here. I parked here last week and nobody told me that I couldn't. I guess you need to be specific, especially if we're going to be issuing citations. If this is just a request from us. If this sign is our request of park users to be courteous, then it's not that necessary. But if this is in fact informing park users of the rules that we intend to enforce, then that should be included on the sign that says park rules will be enforced. So therefore when the enforcement person comes around, he can say here it is. It's right on the sign. No parking on the grass. It will be enforced. You're parked on the grass. I'm enforcing it. Lash: These premises are patrolled? ~ Andrews: I think just saying these park rules will be enforced is good. You don't have to hold too big of a club over the public. Hoffman: You run the risk of if indeed enforces laxes and they're not enforced, then you're telling them they're going to be enforced and for the, you know this summer I've been out at the ballfield and they've 'been parking on the grass all summer and nobody's been doing anything about it so there's a flip side to that as well. Koubsky: Say they may be enforced. Andrews: I think just by saying the park rules will enforced, that doesn't mean they're going to catch every person. They never do but I think it just removes an excuse from the guy saying nobody ever told me you were going to enforce this rule. You're the example of the day. I think that's a good idea. Hoffman: Is that a consensus? Do we want to include that, what is it like a footnote after all? Schroers: Just at the bottom say, parks rules will be enforced. Unless someone can think of abetter way to put it. Andrews: Violators will be prosecuted, convicted and put in prison. Schroers: Survivors will be prosecuted yeah. ,...... Hoffman: But the driving on grass or park property is addressed under Section 14-67, Use of Vehicles. It says it in a couple different ways. No Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 14 ~ driver of any vehicle or no vehicle shall be permitted to drive across or on park lands except on roadways. No vehicles permitted on footwalk, lawns or other grounds of city park so it's an enforceable rule. Lash: Maybe we need to also say something about no motorized vehicles on trails. Well we have motorized vehicles further down. That continues to be a nuisance. Just happened last week. Hoffman: Yeah, I think they're two separate. Driving off the road and the motorized vehicles. The other one, no motorized vehicles allowed but then we allow snowmobiles on designated trails so. Let's finish out with driving on the grass. Lash: Do you like the way it was on the old one here? Please do not park or drive on grass? Schroers: That sounds like a request. If we add on the bottom that the rules are going to be enforced, this sounds more like a request when we say please do not park or drive on the grass. We can say parking or driving on grass prohibited. Lash: Let's make sure as we're going here Todd, let's make sure we're not using the same word over and over like prohibited or whatever. Hoffman: Prohibited. Right. We've got two so far. Lash: Two prohibited's? ..."", Hoffman: Yes. Andrews: It's a strong word. Hoffman: Parking or driving on grass prohibited. Alcoholic beverages restricted to canned beer only. Glass containers prohibited. No pets allowed. Down to motorized vehicles. Lash: No motorized vehicles allowed except snowmobiles on designated trails? Andrews: That's too long. Lash: But is that kind of the point? Hoffman: Yep. Koubsky: Motorized vehicles on designated trails. Andrews: I guess I'd put that into two rules. One would be no motorized vehicles on park property except for roads and then have another one would say snowmobiles restricted to marked trails only. Something like that. Koubsky: I would chose the later. Just the snowmobiles on marked trails only. ..."" Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ June 25, 1991 - Page 15 Lash: But that doesn't address the problem of the other motorized vehicles out on the ballfields and the trails and that kind of stuff, which we have had a problem with here. Hoffman: Eden Prairie has a massive problem with snowmobiles in city parks. They used to have some areas they allowed snowmobile trailoring in and then accessing the trails from the parks but people came out from farther into the city and once they got to the parks they said hey great. Eden Prairie allows snowmobiling up around the parks so they prohibited all snowmobiling in any park. We see it as well in our park locations down in Chan Pond and other park locations so I think it should be fairly straight forward in stating that no snowmobiles except on designated trails. Lash: Snowmobiling on designated trails only. Pemrick: That's good. Andrews: That's a good one. Lash: No other motorized vehicles allowed? Go with a dash? No other motorized vehicles? Pemrick: Yeah. That's simple. clean and simple. ,.... Lash: Is that the law? Hoffman: Yeah. We're kind of getting vague in the way of motorized vehicles. In our definition vehicle means bicycle, go cart, mini-bike, motorcycle, snowmobile, recreational vehicle, all terrain vehicle. Koubsky: It says in (e), nothing herein shall be construed to prohibit the use of snowmobiles in any area of a park so designated by resolution or ordinance. So we can't say no snowmobiles. Hoffman: But we can say snowmobiling in designated trails only. Koubsky: We could say motorized vehicles. Schroers: We could say authorized vehicles on designated trails only. Hoffman: People won't know what that is. Koubsky: You can say motorized vehicles and snowmobiles on designated trails only. Lash: No. Because that opens it up to all the mini-bikes and three wheelers going on all the trails. Hoffman: People think of them as recreational vehicles but then that doesn't fall back into our defintion in our ordinances. Lash: Okay, so snowmobiling on designated trails only. No other ~ recreational vechiles allowed? Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 16 ."" Schroers: You know we almost have this here where it says, where we have parking or driving on grass prohibited. I don't know that we need to specifically address this motorized vehicles thing. The snowmobiles kind of, their route is marked out in the winter by the Snowmobile club or the Snowmobile Association and they put out signs at various places to say please stay on the trails and that should be enough. I would think that if we just leave this on the park rules here where it says driving or parking on grass prohibited, that just about covers it. You're not going to have snowmobiles out there in the summertime doing any damage and driving pretty much covers everyt~ing there. Lash: But it's not only just on the grass. I mean we have had cars drive on the trail from Lake Ann over to Greenwood Shores. Schroers: Yes I know and I've seen that. Lash: The mini-bikes and the 3 wheelers and stuff, that doesn't address that at all. Andrews: I think you do need to be more specific other than kind of hide behind the definition of vehicle. I think you need to be more specific on what type of vehicle you mean. Lash: Well, if we say snowmobiling on trails is allowed. designated trails, no other recreational vehicles allowed. they allowed in there anyw~ere? On the Period. Are ....." Hoffman: No. Koubsky: They're allowed on the roadways. Schroers: Only if it would be a licensed vehicle. We're kind of discriminating against the people who like to drive ATV's or 3 wheelers because we allow snowmobiling but we don't allow them the use so when we get too specific where we're kind of signaling them out. Andrews: That's what the law says though. Lash: But that's it. I mean the law says we can have snowmobiles. Koubsky: It says you can have any vehicles though. It says no vehicle of any kind shall be permitted to drive across or on parklands except on roadways. So basically to me I interpret that as yeah, that's number (e) on the last page. It kind of opens any vehicle into a park as long as it drives on the roadway. Then it defines vehicles as mini-bikes, go carts and everything. So for us to. Andrews: But the State law says in order to operate on a public roadway you have to be a licensed vehicle so we get kind of, we're hiding behind kind of a complications here of the law. We're saying you're allowed to bring a vehicle in but then that vehicle isn't legal because it's not licensed. So I think we have to get specific here. --' Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ June 25, 1991 - Page 17 Koubsky: But are we describing State laws here or City ordinances? Andrews: Well these are public roads. They would have to comply with State licensing laws I would assume. You don't want a situation where somebody thinks they can take their go cart into the city park on a trailer. Take it off the trailer and run it around on those roads. Koubsky: Right, I agree. Andrews: Somebody will do it if they think it's okay. Any suggestions Todd? ,.... Hoffman: Again this falls a little bit back into the pet category in that how big a problem are we perceiving with ATV's. With mini-bikes. That type of thing. There is some signage at Greenwood Shores at the entrance that says no mini-bikes and then it says no recreational or no...vehicles, that type of thing. So that's one location which has experienced a problem in the past and that's because it's the entranceway to a trailway which lends itself to that type of vehicle. Other than that, I can't lay a claim to hearing any other comments about ATV's. I've heard comments about ATV's on the snowmobile trails which are not allowed and which will not be allowed into the future. The Snowmobile Club is maintaining, is doing the footwork and maintaining that trailway. They're certainly not going to allow ATV's or 4 wheelers on their trails so we have to address that. So it becomes one of those, do you have to include it or do we think it's something that, again the signs, it's educational but we're trying to educate the masses. Obviously glass is one that you want to educate the masses. Maybe recreational vehicles are so minor that the one or two or three times they come up during the summer, we can still go back to the ordinance and deal with it. We still have it backed up but are we knocking ourselves over the he~d trying to get it onto the sign. Andrews: I guess the one thing I see as a problem on our neighborhood park at North Lotus is snowmobiles are operating in the park in an unrestricted manner. I'm sure that's because nobody tells them that they're restricted to the designated areas. Hoffman: Yeah, the snowmobiling one I feel is important. People feel they get that cushion of 6 inches of snow and they can go just about anywhere they want. Like that snow is new property. Schroers: I still think that driving or parking on the grass prohibited takes care of most of the park thing and that we could have signs, just individual, small signs that need not be on the park rules sign at the entrance to trails such as in the area of the boat launch at Lake Ann and maybe another sign on the end of the trail at Greenwood Shores and at any other park where it would imply that would say no motorized vehicles because where we're actually talking about and where the violations are mainly coming from in the non-winter season is on the trails. ATV's going on the trails. Hoffman: Going back to your suggestion about including parking or driving ~ on the grass. ...we could try something like parking or driving of any Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 18 --' motorized vehicles and then bring in days. The roadways or parking lots, parking or driving any motorized vehicle off roadways or parking lots prohibited. Schroers: Sure. Pemrick: There you go. Hoffman: We can try to shorten that but that gets all motorized vehicles in there. It says cars are not allowed on grass or off of the grass or off of the parking and then it says all other motorized vehicles are not allowed. Lash: No motorized vehicles allowed. Hoffman: Jim, we missed your go cart in the parking lot. Andrews: But I guess can we, we're taking away something with that statement. We're taking away everything which is kind of what we want but then I think we'd maybe want to give back the snowmobile useage by saying snowmobiling is allowed on designated areas. Hoffman: Keep that one. Lash: That needs to stay in. No motorized vehicles. Andrews: Take it away with the big print and give it back with the small --' print. Lash: No motorized vehicles allowed on. Hoffman: Off of roadways or parking lots. Lash: Sounds like we're putting the whole ordinance in there. Koubsky: It says roadways. I think you can consider a parking lot as a roadway. Andrews: Better say it. Schroers: No motorized vehicles allowed. Lash: On park grounds? Schroers: No. I was thinking of paved areas but we do have some trails that are paved that we don't want the people on. So yeah, you almost have to say roadways and parking lots because that's the only place we want motorized vehicles is on the roadways and parking lots. Lash: Motorized vehicles allowed on roadways and parking areas only. Schroers: Yeah. """"'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ June 25, 1991 - Page 19 Koubsky: Or no motorized vehicles allowed off roadways or parking lots. Hoffman: Because then you've included all the other things. So we've got Dave's which is no motorized. Andrews: I like it the other way around which is motorized vehicles restricted to parking, or roadways and parking lots. Lash: Only, yeah. Andrews: Instead of the other way around. Schroers: We could just say all motorized vehicles restricted to roadways and parking lots except snowmobiles in designated areas. If you want to include it that way. But if you just say all motorized vehicles restricted to roadways and parking areas. Lash: And then maybe the next line you could put snowmobiling restricted to designated areas so it's not like a total run on sentence. Andrews: Yeah I like the snowmobiles as a separate line. Schroers: Yeah. ~ Andrews: So you just point and say, it's number 6. Right there you know. Pemrick: It doesn't say all terrain vehicle. It doesn't say. Andrews: It says specifically snowmobiles. Hoffman: Falling back to Jim's previous statement. Then however we are saying that you are allowed to bring your motorbike into the park and run it up and down the road. Koubsky: According to the ordinance you are. Andrews: As long as it's licensed. Koubsky: Well yeah, licensed would be a State thing but as far as city. The City doesn't even differentiate licensed vehicles. Andrews: Well it would be the same as if you took your go cart out in front of your house and drove it on the street. The city ordinance doesn't prohibit that but you're breaking the law and I'm sure that if that was the problem we could find a city official who'd be more than willing to stop that. Hoffman: Motorized vehicles allowed on roadways. Andrews: I thought we were going the other way on that. Hoffman: Yeah, motorized vehicles. ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 20 -'" Andrews: Restricted. Hoffman: Restricted. Lash: To roadways and parking areas. Andrews: And parking areas only. Hoffman: And the second would be snowmobiling on designated trails only. Lash: Then we have only only there. Hoffman: Any of the other ones which are of some importance include the litter refuse disposal and park hours. Park hours are 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m.. Does anybody have any dispute with that one? Lash: No. Schroers: You know the sign should really have some kind of a greeting like Welcome to Lake Ann Park. Hours. Just kind of soften up the first impression before we get down to the rules. The prohibited and the only's. Andrews: Have you heard Morgan Mundane where he says have a nice day if you can? Lash: Have fun if you can. ....,; Hoffman: Okay, so the first one is park hours 6:00 a.m.- 10:00 p.m.. Schroers: As far as the littering, that could be a request. Please use littering receptacles. Andrews: Please keep our parks beautiful. Don't litter. Schroers: Please keep your park clean. Don't litter. Something like that. Hoffman: Okay. We need some exact wording. Pemrick: Keep your park clean, don't litter. Lash: Please don't. Pemrick: Yeah, keep your park clean. Please don't litter. Schroers: It's like we're asking them for some help. Help keep our park clean. Please don't litter. pemrick: That's good. Lash: It shows ownership there. Schroers: This is going to be quite a sign. ....,;I Park and Rec Commission Meeting .~ June 25, 1991 - Page 21 Hoffman: My intentions are that it's going to be. Schroers: 4 x 8? Hoffman: 3 x 4 or a little less so about 2 1/2 by 3 1/2. Schroers: Our beach rule signs are 4 x 8. Hoffman: Yeah for the beach. You've got a lot of rules there. You don't want to make an eye sore either. I think I've stated there's about 30... about 50 of these signs. Andrews: What you need is where you have about an extra 3 feet at the bottom so you can add more later. Hoffman: Help keep our parks clean. Please do not litter. Lash: Please don't litter. Hoffman: Please don't? Schroers: Do not is more authorative. Andrews: I like that better. Please do not litter. "..... Hoffman: I don't think we use don't in our standard useage but okay. Then underneath that the park rules will be enforced? Park rules are enforced? Will be is kind of, well they will be. Or are? Schroers: I think it should just say park rules enforced. No will be. No are. Just park rules enforced. Hoffman: I like that Lar. Three words. Lash: Do we have to pay by the word on the sign? Hoffman: By the letters. Schroers: Signs are expensive. Andrews: It sure would be nice if we could do routed wood but that costs a fortune. Hoffman: Looking at probably a reflectorized sign so it can be read during evenings. Schroers: Metal. Hoffman: Metal or the polyclave is getting very good reviews. Used extensively in some of the park districts now. It cannot be bent, broken. Stands up well. Have you used any polyclave? I""'" Schroers: No, we have our own special wooden signs that costs us tons. Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 22 .....", Lash: Do you have a color in mind that sounds good? Hoffman: Yes. Standard park color, either a brown with white lettering. It would be good to standardize all our signs and the additional signs would be that color. Does that appeal to your liking? Schroers: I think that's a good idea. When people drive down the road they can identify the color and type of sign and say that must be a park there. Hoffman: Either brown or green. Pemrick: Brown. Andrews: That's consistent with the park. Koubsky: What are your other park signs? Hoffman: Mish mash. That's why we want to provide some consitency. But the newest ones we've ordered are brown with white letters. Lash: If we already have brown, personally I like greens because it makes me think of a park. Green space... Schroers: Well we're consistent with State signs. Most of them are brown. State parks. Lash: Did we cover everything now? ....", Hoffman: I believe so. Unless anybody else had a particular item that was not addressed. Schroers: How about throwing that all together and running it bayk to us and see if we hear something we don't like. Andrews: Lake Ann, is there a separate sign for the permit, vehicle permit required? Hoffman: Yeah. We'll come up with some separate. There will be some special interest signs. Beach signs. South Lotus Lake signs. Those kind of things. Okay I'll run these by you once and then also bring them back in a written form with some price proposals and layout proposals. Lash: And then when you look at it, to me there sort of seems like a. Hoffman: An order? Lash: Yeah, there should be a good order like putting the parking and then the motorized vehicle thing and the snowmobile and the littering and the cans and the glass and all that so there's sort of seems like if you look over the whole thing there'd be a good order. I don't know what it is right now. --' ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 23 Hoffman: We need to talk about a header. This one had Park Courtesy Rules. Park Rules. City of Chanhassen Park Rules. Lash: Park Rules. Pemrick: Park Rules. Lash: Now that I know it's by the letter. Hoffman: Probably not. Andrews: Rules. Lash: Laws. That's shorter. Koubsky: Rules to recreate by. Hoffman: Park Rules? Consensus? Okay. The first one was the park hours. Schroers: Yeah. Hoffman: Park Hours 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m.. Schroers: Is there a greeting somewhere else out there? Ls there another ~ sign that says Lake Ann Park or Welcome to Lake Ann? I can't remember. Hoffman: All parks have a park sign. Nothing that says Welcome. But parks have a park sign which Lake Ann Park. Carver Beach Park. Welcome to Chanhassen's Park? You want to be friendly right Lar? Lash: But it would end up costing more if we had to have each individual sign made differently wouldn't it? Hoffman: Oh yeah. Lash: We wouldn't want to include the name of the park on the sign. Schroers: I guess on the rules sign a greeting really wouldn't work that well. I would go along with Park Rules. Hoffman: Park Rules? Okay. Number l'is park hours 6:00 a.m. to 10:00 p.m.. Number 2, we can choose from pets, glass. Those are our next. Lash: Parking. That seems like it should go first because that's the first thing people are going to see and the first thing they're going to do when they get in there. Hoffman: Okay. Motorized vehicles restricted to roadways and parking areas only? That's 2? Snowmobiles 3? That's another only. Snowmobiling on designated trails only. Koubsky: I would put that on the bottom. JI1"". Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 24 ....." Schroers: I think I would too. Separate that. Lash: Yeah, that doesn't apply to very many people. Andrews: No it doesn't. Koubsky: It's seasonal. Schroers: Very few people drive through that gate with a snowmobile. I mean some do but most of the snowmobiles come driving through. Lash: Okay so the parking, motorized vehicles on roadways. Koubsky: Glass and alcohol. Hoffman: Glass should go first and th~ alcohol? Glass containers prohibited. Schroers: No glass containers which kind of already tells them that they can't have hard liquor which will further define our alcohol statement. Hoffman: Okay. 3, is glass containers prohibited. 4, alcoholic beverages restl"icted to canned beer only. 5, would be no pets allowed. 6, would be snowmobiling in designated trails only. 7, help keep our parks clean. Please do not litter. And at the bottom, park rules enforced. Okay? Seven rules. -' Lash: I feel like God. Andrews: I still think we should put have a nice day if you can. Schroers: Okay, can we move onto item 4 now? SITE PLAN REVIEW. CHES MAR TRAILS. Hoffman: As can be seen, it's a fairly simple subdivision. However, it did include a trail segment as identified in our Comprehensive Plan. As such we would need to address it. As seen in your packet the subject property. The trail link is identified as a phase 3 or 2000, 2010 trail link starting on TH 5 directly across from Arboretum entrance and going along Crimson Bay Road. Crimson Bay easement was obtained from the end of the cul-de-sac up to the property line where the Zimmerman piece picks up. That easement was obtained as well to make a connection from Crimson Bay Road up to Dogwood Road so the first two phases have already been secured. Then the trail will either be on street on Dogwood or in the easement. On street along Tanadoona and then come across in some configuration on this property. In talking with the applicant, they would like to see this easement be taken along one of the property lines. Currently the property line is about in this location. Staff has no problem working with them on that. We could continue to do so just to insure that we do get a high and dry trail easement. Something that's...a lowland or a wetland. Something of that nature. But I advocate again taking that...trail easement. My perception is that working with Camp Tanadoona, it's not going to be very .-, Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ June 25, 1991 - Page 25 difficult as a low intensive use property. It's a camp. They should be all in favor of a trailway. However, that property may be at some time in the future sold off or separated or split off. That type of thing. what this does is allow residents. Not only the residents but...any groups from the Arboretum which have an interest of traversing by foot to the Minnewashta Park. They could do so from the Arboretum. It also allows all the residents in this area to walk the system and get up into Minnewashta Regional Park. Lash~ What do you think for the near future for getting Tanadoon~ to cooperate? Hoffman: In the near future? I don't think it's going to be a problem. Lash: So are you going to pursue that? Hoffman: Yeah, this trail link could come more quickly than the Phase 3. Again, it depends on to what extent we want to develop it. Gravel, bituminous. Those types of things but it would certainly bring it much closer. Lash: Have you looked at where the access point at the property line that the people are asking that we put it there. Have you looked at what the access point is into the park? ""..... Hoffman: Just spoke with Mr. Swaggert today and we'll continue to clear those types of questions up prior to going to the Council. Lash: Okay. That would have a big impact on where you put it. I mean if it comes into a wetland. Hoffman: Correct. Obviously when you split somebody's property it's not a physical. It's a physical split but it doesn't create a big impact but they're more comfortable if it would go on the property line. That way it's way down... and it's way down on his end of the lot and Mr. Swaggert also is concerned that he'll be fencing this off for horses and if it comes in the middle then he has to put a fence there and another fence on the other side. So putting it at the property line would be his favored option and we'll continue to work with him to find an amenable solution for both the City and the landowner. Schroers: So basically what we're recommending is that the Council require a 20 foot easement but not a specific designated route at this time? Hoffman: Correct. Lash: By the time you took it to Council it would be designated though? Hoffman: Yep. We'll work with the folks in Planning and the applicants. Schroers: Well I can't see that we wouldn't want to recommend to require the easement when two are already in place and this would be the third and ~ we only need one more link to complete the trail. I mean we're halfway Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 26 .....,.;I home now. Unless someone has other concerns, I would make the recommendation to recommend to Council to require the 20 foot easement. Is there a second? Pemrick: I'll second that. Lash: We don't need to specify anything about location? That the location is to be deemed appropriate by staff. Hoffman: Yeah. Jointly benefitting the City and the applicant. Schroers: I kind of did it just the way it is here. Require this 20 foot trail easement so I can kind of identify which one we're talking about. Andrews: Okay. Did you get a second? Schroers: Wendy seconded. Schroers moved, Pemrick seconded that the Park and Recr~ation Commission recommend to require a 20 foot trail easement across the Ches Mar Trails subdivision at a location deemed appropriate by the City and applicant. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Lash: Do we make a recommendation that we have staff contact Tanadoona and pursue the connection there? Would we do that formally or go ahead. Schroers: I think we can trust staff to follow up on that since they told ~ us that they would. Hoffman: Yeah. Again, if we want to do that formally, we really need to make a change to our Comprehensive Plan since there was a reason why it was included as a Phase 3. When it went through the development of the Comprehensive Trail Plan, the Commission thought there were many other trails within the City which are more important than this one. If we don't incur any costs, we could very easily do it but how do you, if you're not going to lay a bituminous or an aggregate surface, then how do you designate the trailway and that type of thing and keep people from walking allover the place? So we would have to incur some costs to install the trail and that may be the drawback. We want to save those funds. Schroers: Okay. Then we can move on to 5. 1991 FOURTH OF JULY CELEBRATION. Ruegemer: We're all set to go. The 4th of July will soon be upon us. Less than about 8 days away here. The 4th of July is well into it's planning stages. The 4th of July this year we'll spend over 3 days again beginning on Wednesday, July 3rd, Thursday, July 4th and Saturday July 6th we will be wrapping up. Currently Wednesday is going to be designated as the street dance day up at City Center Park. We'll be having a lot of the activities from years past including the kiddy parade and the trade fair which is the second year. There's continued interest in that. Local businesses getting ....." Pa,k and Rec Commission Meeting ~ June 25, 1991 - Page 27 into a t,ade fai, type of deal. It's a ,eally good set up this yea,." I'll be having the ente,tainment again. All the ca,nival games which we,e ve,y attended games of last yea,. We'll have the hot ai, again and the pony }-ides and including with the st,eet dance featu,ing the Hi-Tops again. And all those have been booked al,eady a long time he,e. Thu,sday's going to be designated as a family day out at Lake Ann. We',e going to be sta,ting with the kids fishing contest which was ve,y popula, last yea,. We have 100 available spots fo, that which filled completely last year. We',e on a p,etty good pace this yea, also. Also with the family games and the inne,tube ,elays. We'll have a lot of family o,iented games again this yea, which we,e ve,y well attended last yea,. We'll sta,t then with music in the park with Jeff B,ooks again and that was ve,y well attended and conclude on Thu,sday with the fi,ewo,ks at Lake Ann sta,ting a,ound dusk. Then to close out the 4th of July celebration, we're going to be having the adult fishing contest on Satu,day, July 6th as well as two softball tou,naments. Those will be double elimination with a Co-,ec and a Men's Open tou,nament. As fa, as adve,tising fo, the tou,nament, the signs did go up. The 4 x 8 plywood signs at selected a,eas around town and also the banne, has been hung ove, by the St. Hube,t's Chu,ch. As well as an inse,t was put into the Village, last week and we',e having a featu,e sto,y this Thu,sday on the schedule of events and the 4th of July celeb,ation. At this time I'd like to ente,tain any comments 0, questions f,om the Commission on the 4th of July celeb,ation. ",..... Lash: I have just a side question that occu"ed to me. What does the money go towa,ds that we get from all the games out here? Ruegeme,: F,om the games? Lash: Yeah. Ruegeme,: That's used to help offset the costs as fa, as if you would like to apply that to the fi,ewo,ks display. Hoffman: Basically the ca,nival games out he,e a,e pu,chased and then supplies to operate them. If the,e's excess, it pays for pu,chase of tents, fi,ewo,ks, those types of things. Traditionally la,ge companies donate enough money to cove, the cost of the firewo,ks. Howeve" that is not occu"ing anymo,e. They',e ,educing. They still donate but they',e ,educing thei, amount. However with the upsu,ge in othe, businesses, we',e getting a la,ger amount of smalle, donations. Donations we,e ,emaining fai,ly constant. We're looking to other fo,ms of offsetting the cost. The celeb,ation no doubt is subsidized by the gene,al budget but it's ou, la,gest community celeb,ation and it's well ,eceived. I think if we we,e to quit, we would be. Pem,ick: Lynching. Lash: It'd be an up,oar. Hoffman: Lynching and up,oa,. That type of thing so we',e taking a look at it. We',e going to have a raffle this yea,. Raffle off a numbe, of ~ like $20.00-$25.00 p,izes to again generate some mo,e income. But the Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 28 ......, festival by no means make money. But it's not a burden on our budget ei ther . Lash: I love the schedule this year. Pemrick: Yeah, I do too. Lash: It works out nice and I especially like the fact that the softball tournament is not going on at the same time as the kids fishing. For a lot of people that was a conflict. You wanted to be down with your kids to help them fish but then you were scheduled to play ball so this works out really nice. I like it a lot. Hoffman: T-shirts. Again this year the theme. Pemrick: Are they spelled right? Hoffman: Oh you bet. The red, white and blue. Again these t-shirts are available free of charge to anybody who would like to sign up to help on any date throughout the festival. Other than that they're available to the general public at $7.00 a piece. Just another way of celebrating. Schroers: I am going to volunteer to help. However, I don't have a handle on my personal schedule right at the moment so I'm going to have to get back to you. Hoffman: Saturday morning Larry. Need some help with the fishing contest. ~ Adults, if you're available? Lash: Speaking of that now, I seem to recall last year there was a conflict over something. What was that? Hoffman: Someone brought fish in late? Lash: Yeah, that was it. You did good though so never mind. No, I just remembered there was a problem and I couldn't remember what it was. Hoffman: Yeah. This guy was fairly heated. Schroers: That goes from when to when? Ruegemer: Is it 9:00 to 11:00? Hoffman: 8:00 to 11:00. 8:00 to 11:30. 2 1/2 hours. Lash: Do you have a list of rules for people when they start so they know exactly. Hoffman: You bet. Yeah, specifically it said this year 11:30 you must be, your-fish must be weighed in or at the check in table. Schroers: Why don't you sign me up for that Jerry and if I find that that doesn't work, I'll figure out something that does. ...", Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~. June 25, 1991 - Page 29 Andrews: The other comment I had was, remember last year I made the comment about the debris falling out of the sky in eyes. I was one of them that got some in my eyes. Are they doing anything differently this year? Hoffman: Yeah. We're planning on bringing that back probably to about the middle of the beach and we'll partition that off real early in the evening so you don't have people who set up in that area. Schroers: We're also going to require everyone in attendance to wear Oakley sunglasses. Hoffman: And then as well, last year it was the wind that was coming in strong out of the west and we'll keep a watch on that as well. Andrews: Pass an ordinance, no westerly winds. Pemrick: I can work on the 3rd. Hoffman: Evening? Pemrick: Yes. Lash: I traditionally have done, I'll do a game out here and then I'll help on. Yeah, I go to everything so. ,-.. Pemrick: Wait now, yeah that's City Center Park on the 3rd? Yeah. I'm planning on going to the kiddy parade and then I'll be free after that. Schroers: And that's like Wednesday evening right? Hoffman: Yep. In the evening. Schroers: So the normal softball games are going to be going on at Lake Ann that night? Ruegemer: No. Not during that week. Just there'd be a few make-ups on Monday and Tuesday. Andrews: Put me down for Wednesday. I'll be there. Pemrick: If it's as hot as last year, you bring the water around a lot more frequently because that was really bad. Ruegemer: The shifts are broken down into two timeframes. 5:30 to like quarter to 7:00. Hoffman: Hour and 45 minutes on the games. Ruegemer: 6:00 to 7:45 and then 7:45 to 9:30. Hoffman: Believe me I didn't feel real comfortable making you stick in there but you did it out of commitment. ,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Pagew30 """""" Lash: Pure intimidation. Hoffman: Yeah. Lash: I mean I was ready to pass out. I was so hot. Pemrick: You looked awful. Andrews: We were selling t-shirts until after 10:00 because people came, as long the band was playing, we were selling t-shirts pretty much as people wanted them I think. Lash: Were you having the dunk tank again? Hoffman: That was put on the by the Jaycee's and they're now defunct. Lash: That was fun. Hoffman: Yeah, we're also having a t-shirt table as well we're selling raffle tickets and t-shirts at one table so lots of things going on. Lash: Maybe if you need people to help at that. I guess I'd maybe be more inclined to split my shift and do an hour at a game and then an hour selling so you're bending over picking up...for 2 hours. Pemrick: Yeah, that was tough. That bending over. ..." Lash: And all the blood's rushing to your head. Pemrick: Where do we check in for duties? Hoffman: Right there at the tent. Andrews: He'll find us. Last year he pulled us right out of the car. Lash: You were late. Did I read this or did I just imagine this that you had a schedule rain out for the Hi-Tops for Saturday night if Wednesday night doesn't work out. Is that true? Ruegemer: I think it was the 5th. Friday night. Lash: Friday night, okay. Is that publicized so people would know? Ruegemer: It's in the contract but it hasn't been in the schedule of events. Hoffman: That is a very good point. I'm not even sure if we've included that in the past brochures. They've always agreed to a rain out date but it would be difficult at that point to advertise it so let's see where are we at? We could put it in next Thursday's paper. Lash: Yeah, but that's the 4th of July. .."", Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ June 25, 1991 - Page 31 Andrews: If it rained yesterday. Hoffman: If the dance was rained out yesterday, come tomorrow. Lash: You can probably arrange like with the bank to put it on the lighted thing maybe. Andrews: Is there going to be a beer tent? Hoffman: You bet. Pemrick: Yeah, hot dogs. Hoffman: Dave, I think you're the only soul we haven't heard from. Koubsky: Yeah I know that. Let me get back with you okay? Hoffman: Again, it's a big effort. Traditionally commission members, Council members and city employees and seasonal employees are the one's who have kind of pulled it off. At some point we'd look to expanding that but traditionally we've done a good jeb. Pemrick: It's a lot of fun. ,.... Andrews: Time goes fast. Schroers: Jerry I just want to understand what you said. You said that there are going to be no softball games played out at Lake Ann Wednesday the 3rd? Ruegemer: Right. Schroers: So how does that come up on our schedules? Is that a bye or something on there? Ruegemer: There wasn't any games scheduled. Schroers: We just skip a week. Ruegemer: Right. That's a no play week. That's considered a holiday. You enter that into the computer and then it prints out and skips that week. It goes the week before and then the week after. So that would just prolong it. Schroers: So we've got a week off? Ruegemer: Right. Hoffman: Doesn't it say in there no games on your schedule? Ruegemer: I don't know if it has that capacity but it isn't listed. .~ Schreers: Okay. Is there anymore discussion on 4th of July? Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 32 1992 CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT BUDGET. PRELIMINARY DISCUSSION. --' Hoffman: As stated, due to the number of items on tonight's agenda, I just want to get the Commission thinking about this. This is an opportunity for us in the 1992 fiscal year do a bang up job on our budget preparation so we have a good year in 1992 following through. This year and in year's past we've, well there's one on here tonight again, a re-appropriation. Anytime we came keep to a minimum re-appropriations or budget amendments, that type of thing our year just runs much more smoothly. So I just wanted to get started early. Tonight I would just like to open it up to Commission members to pinpoint on some areas that have been re-occuring in your minds. You have been hearing on a certain park or a certain item. What you think needs some attention in 1992. I'll take those items. Put those together with an expanded list. I've been jotting down park acquisition and development area. Jerry's been jotting things down in the recreation area as they come in over the past 6 or 8 months and we'll put that list together so you'll have something to work off of next meeting when we come back and take a closer look at this and go specifically park by park and seeing where we think the needs are. Schroers: I have something unless. As you know some of us have been involved in the City Center Park, if you want to call it improvement project. We are running considerably short of funding for completing the park the way we would like to have it. In looking at our 1992 capital improvement budget, we may want to consider if there are items on there that are not real feasible to be completed in 1992 or for one reason or another that we could put it back. Shuffle around and maybe re-up some of those funds to help complete this City Center playground project. The way ~ it's coming out is that we are going to have some pretty extensive preliminary ground work for getting the play area laid out and that's going to be expensive. Then what we're going to end up with is very little play apparatus. We're going to have the area is set up real nice and then there's a lot of grading and drainage and bordering and surface materials and things that are eating up a lot of costs... We are looking at to put in place is a modular type of system that you can add to but we would like to have something in there that looks like we've accomplished something. We don't want to say that we spent $50,000.00 and all we've got is pearock and border. Hoffman: Larry, I can expand on that. Those plans and specs for that continue to evolve and change in dealing with the Federal money, the Block Grant money and ~hat type of thing. When we get into the updates a little bit later on I'll explain that but we're slightly better off than explained and talked about at the last meeting. So we're better off than originally thought. Schroers: Okay, the only thing I might add to that is the fact t~at, this is kind of a combination project between the school and the City and there seems to be some kind of a false wall there or like it's two sides of the fence but I really don't see that. The school does not say that other people can't use the play area while the school's in session or where they're having recess. I see this whole City Center Park area here as something that is open to the community all the ti~e and I don't have a ....,,; "" Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 33 problem putting park funds into that project. I think that the likelihood that the school would say well we're going to be using this from this time and we don't want others here at that time, I just don't see a problem like that coming up. So I think we could justify spending some of our budget in that area. Lash: I'd agree. It's been on hold for so many years and everybody's had big expectations of what it's going to be like when it's done and if we kind of scale down from our visions, it will be kind of disappointing so I would have no problem with that. And it's used I'd say probably more than any other park in town as far as kids. Schroers: And a lot of work has been done on it. It is continuing to be done on it. The fly in the ointment, the thing that's really holding up the program is the lack of the funds. So that's what we need to do is take a close look at the budget and see what is actually viable that we can and want to do in 1992 and then where we may be able to acquire some funds. Where we have pretty much bugged the school or solicited the school as much as is possible and they are totally saturated. We can't really expect more money from the school so we have to find other funds. Lash: Have you attempted to getting any kind of commitment from APT or any funding? If we wanted to put in extra money next year, would they be willing to put in a little extra. They do several fund raisers. ;tJ"". Hoffman: They put in $8,000.00 this year and they're not making any commitments for future years at this time. Schroers: So that's just something that I would like to key on for when we actually do get into looking at the specifics of the budget in terms of the capital improvement program. Lash: I guess too that popped to my mind right away is the Herman Field. To probably try and continue work there and Pheasant Hills. Those are two projects that have been hanging over our heads with a big demand usually behind them for a long time. Andrews: I agree with Larry that City Center should be top priority. It is our city showpiece so to speak and I think we have a commitment to the City to finish that project promptly and do it properly. A few other areas that kind of popped to my mind are park deficiency problems on th. south side of town. Especially in the Lake Susan Hills area where it's growing there faster than we can provide equipment for those parks. I think we ought to try and do what we can there to get caught up. However you can do that I don't know. And then with our pavillion that we're talking about this year, I believe that the landscaping budget was cut back quite substantially I think if I remember correctly. We may want to look at that as to if we need to provide something for next year to finish that off and really dress it up nice for Lake Ann. And then this is something that it's not. a park but I guess I look at this as something I don't want to see it die as Bluff Creek. How can we keep that idea going? What can we do to facilitate a park or protection of that area? I don't think we've really discussed how we can do that. It's not parkland but is there anyway we can I"""" Pa,k and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 34 set up a committee 0, some so,t of g,oup that could be active and t,y to get that p,oject moving. """"""" Hoffman: Cu"ently the Planning Commission is wo,king ve,y diligently on a bluff p,ese,vation o,dinance so that would p,ovide some p,otection to the Bluff Cleek a,ea. So that's the fi,st avenue but the,e ale ce,tainly other avenues to investigate. Lash: Anothe, one that just popped to my mind is the lady who was here at the last meeting f,om out by Lake Minnewashta or whateve, and she was talking about some of that equipment being in poor condition. Maybe we want to look at that. Schroe,s: We did decide to take some action on that didn't we? Hoffman: Fo, this yea, to p,ovide bo,de, wood fo, the cu"ent facility. Cu"ent play equipment and then so it can be expanded in the future 0, this piece taken out and a new piece put in. Then put in the pea gravel. Lash: What they have the,e is pretty old and dec,epit isn't it? Hoffman: Yep. Lash: She made it sound like the,e's been a p,etty big tu,nove, in the population. The,e's mOle little kids. Also CUllY F~,ms kind of pops up and Chan Hills. They',e al,eady budgeted fo, some stuff for next year a,en't they? ..."", Hoffman: Potentially in ou, 5 yea, capital improvement. We'll go th,ough that. That's get ve,y un,ealistic ve,y quickly. CUllY Fa,ms had $10,000.00 this yea,. Chanhassen Hills had 0 allocated this yea, so Chan Hills is a natu,al fo, next yea,. Koubsky: I guess something I'd like to keep in mind. It p,obably is on the 5 yea, plan but we do have a census that came out and you p,obably did a demog,aphic su,vey of some so,t with the new kids coming up and seve,al items that have come up th,oughout the yea, is kind of putting out files for the Chanhassen Athletic p,og,am and the youth athletics. It seems like we',e always kind of shuffling. We need a socce, field is an u,gent demand 0, this new ballfield is an u,gent demand. I'd just like to make su,e that we keep looking ahead and t,y to guess what ou, needs ale going to be in 4 years or 5 yea,s. With the new communities having children like crazy and now the upswing in the 4th g,aders, the,e's going to be a lot mOle demand in the youth p,ograms. Not only, both boys and girls programs and I'd just like to ensu,e that we meet that on a p,ogressive basis. That the City's ready for those population inc,eases and design that into our system. Lash: Maybe we need to add,ess that along with La"y's. We have the master plan for City Center Park. Maybe it's time to think about trying to head in that direction. Getting the additional fields and stuff. Hoffman: When we sta,t taking a look at potentially developing a maste, plan at City Center or Bandime,e, we',e going to have to time those. Those ...."", "" Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 35 are not going to be projects that we can potentially carry out of our general acquisition and development fund. At some point we're going to have to go back to the public and sell some general obligation bonds and pursue those on a referendum level. Lash: I can see the Bandimere one. I mean that would be a massive project but City Center. Would that be so big? Hoffman: City Center would easily be a couple hundred thousand dollars. Lash: Even without purchasing that additional property? Hoffman: Even without purchasing it would easily approach $200,000.00. Schroers: How does our new playground fit into that master plan? Hoffman: Very well. It was planned as part of it. But again, considerable amount of earth moving, filling, bringing in roadways, parking lots, those types of things. There's also HRA is taking a look at some planning to tie in City Center Park with City Hall. With these two empty lots in the front of the building. Potentially tying that all in. Removing the road from the front of the building and running it to the rear of the building to bring in more parking in that area. Open this up to like a Town Square kind of area and again that's all, it's just potential. Throwing out ideas, that type of thing so we're working as well with the ~ HRA to kind of incorporate these two separate projects as they come about. Lash: So would there be a way of approaching them and asking them for assistance? Forgetting about, I mean that road isn't very old. All that stuff was done just within the past few years. Instead of ripping all that out and doing it allover, couldn't they just put the money and help us redo the whole thing up there? Hoffman: Sure. Piggyback onto that project. Lash: Not even piggyback. Just forget that part and just do park. Hoffman: Well that's our idea. If we're going to tell them forget their idea and do our's. Lash: It's dumb. It doesn't need to be ripped out. It's brand new. Hoffman: Well they're not going to take real kindly to it but we can. Andrews: Tennis courts. Hoffman: Yeah. Paint lines on it. Lash: It just seems like they have a way of coming up with spending money that is hard for me to grasp sometimes. Hoffman: But we just need to wait. There are things, lighting of the ballfield at Lake Susan. That's one that comes up. Additional lighting at .,.,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 36 . --"" Lake Ann. There's a number of items which could be included in a park referendum issue. The current climate is not the best for that but on down the road the City has capability to carry that debt load and if the mood and the economy and that type of thing comes up at some point, the Commission will want to take a look at coming up with that. Bandimere is not going to happen without one. As long as you're doing a $300,000.00 or $400,000.00 one, that's your opportunity then to pick up some of those loose ends. Some of those things that have been knocking around in the commission's top drawer and pull those things up onto the table as well. Schrqers: What we're talking about here on this particular agenda item is trying to really identify and refine the budget for 1992 so we can make the best use of the resources that we have available. I guess that's what we're really after here in a preliminary discussion. It's not to identify too many things specifically but just to target our resources in the best way we can. Lash: How about North Lotus Jim? Can you think of anything else? Andrews: We need a swingset. I know I've said that before. I don't know if that's something we were going to try to squeak through this year or not. There was some talk about that. Hoffman: Coming in. Lash: How about tennis courts? Andrews: The tennis courts are in good shape.. Really good shape. There's ...",,; no problems there at all and they get tons of use. Lash: That wind screen thing get settled? Andrews: Yeah. No wind screen. It's a 5 year project. Let it grow. There haven't been any complaints. It sure makes a lot of sense. You know all that plastic laying around and you're spending all that money sending city workers out there to fix it for 2-3 days. It gets a lot of use. Lash: How about Carver Beach? Schroers: Don't hear much about Carver Beach. Pretty quiet neighborhood. A lot of happy, content people. Lash: Well probably the ones we've listed will eat up all and more. Schroers: It will eat up more than the budget what we've talked about. Hoffman: My list is much longer than this. Koubsky: I just want to put my plug in for hockey rinks. Both North and South. We have some in the middle here but there again that's tied into the youth athletic program. -' ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 37 Hoffman: The removal and the upgrade at these hockey rinks have been on the agenda as well. Koubsky: If we could keep moving. Lash: How about the warming house? We took care of that this year didn't we in the budget? Hoffman: Yeah. The warming house just keeps plugging along. Shingles. It's a building which is serving a use but obviously not a premiere type of facility within our p~emiere park. Koubsky: Have we established any debits in any of the, I know throughout the year we seem to borrow money here and there and shuffle it around. I wasn't involved too much in the 1991. Well I wasn't involved at all in 1991 budget. Did we establish any debits in any of the areas that need to be repaid within the next year's budget? Hoffman: No. Anyplace we've made a reappropriation we've gone ahead and cut money which will not be spent and then put it in another location. If we come up into a debit situation, then that will be addressed with the commission and we have to, something will not happen then. Obviously as you go through the year, if you run over someplace something's going to be cut. One of the last things that would have been on the agenda to be completed. ,.... Lash: Those are probably the things you should bring back to us and say well it was scheduled to be done this year but we did something else instead so we don't just totally forget about those things. Hoffman: On a related issue, Jim asked about the park acquisition and development fees acquired to date and 41.66% of the year expired as of May of 1991. So that 42% expired we had collected $34,258.00 in park development fees. That's 31% of what we had budgeted so we're behind by 10%. Last year we had collected 31% as well. 30.97%. Here we're at 31.14 so we're right on target with last year. Slightly behind our projections. Trail, we've acquired $11,703.00. Percent, 23% of our estimated. Last year we were at 20%. Andrews: What were the actual dollars last year. Does it show that? Hoffman: No. Percent to date. Not on this spread sheet. Lash: Another one just popped in my head and that's the railway thing. Pemrick: The trail? Lash: Yes. Pemrick: That one I think should get some priority. Hoffman: So we budgeted $116,000.00 revenue. We've collected $46,000.00 this year thus far. ,.., Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 38 Schroers: I think there was some kind of a delay on what we wanted to do no that trail depending on that light rail transit authority. We're waiting for some information there to find out what kind of timeframe. You know we don't want to stick a pile of money in there making a useable trail surface and then 2 years having them decide they want to put light rail in there. '-' Hoffman: Did meet with those folks down at the Hennepin County building with the cities of Chaska, Minnetonka, Hopkins, Eden Prairie and myself. What the Hennepin County Rail Authority is going to do is send out a proposal to the City saying you can sign onto this and maintain a trailway on there up until such time as light rail comes through. It's not going to be for at least 10 years. Probably closer to 20-25 before that comes down so it's a very long term issue for the light rail transit. At that time they're not even opposed to us moving a trailway off if separation can be brought in there. That type of thing. Schroers: off rail trail? Hoffman: Off rail trail. Schroers: Alright. I like it. Alright, is there anything else we need to discuss on that for our preliminary capital improvement discussion? Okay. 1991 REPORT TO THE CITY COUNCIL. Hoffman: Item 7 is just basically informational item. Again as listed in our City Code, the Commission shall render a report to the Counci 1 cover i ng ...", it's operation of the preceding 12 months. Then this goes along with our recommendation for estimated funds for work for the following year. So I'll be drafting a proposed report to the City Council and the Commission to have. The Commission will have an opportunity to review that at an upcoming meeting and then we'll send that on to the City Council for their review. Again basically it's just a very simple report to highlight what the accomplishments of the Park and Recreation Commission have been in the previous year. Schroers: Okay. Any comments on that? RICE MARSH LAKE PARK PLAYGROUND NEEDS. Hoffman: I thought somebody might volunteer to write that. No volunteers. Item 8 is one of those ghosts in the closet again that comes up necessitating some potential reappropriation of some funds so we can meet a present need. As listed there, we removed some equipment at Rice Marsh Lake Park late last year. The aggregate was, that area was replaced or exhanged for use of the basketball court. The aggregate was installed. Bituminous will be going down this year when that aggregate settles down in that area. Rice Marsh Lake Park also has poor soils so it needs to dry up and settle down prior to putting the asphalt on. I continue to receive intermittent calls from residents, both related to other people talking in the neighborhood and unrelated that they're fairly isolated down there by TH 5 and they're restricted now to the play equipment that they have. The -' Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 39 ,.... reason cited there for the removal of the equipment are real. However, the need for some additional equipment, especially swings. Jan says swings are like an eternal play structure. Everybody wants swings, and Jim as well so it doesn't take much. What we can do with this reappropriation is both prepare for a future and propose for next year addition to that play structure this year by expanding the border wood and then also purchase swings so these folks can make it through the rest of the year and the first part of next year prior to any addition added. So again it's our recommendation that we reappropriate $2,250.00 of the remaining $2,500.00 under the line item, "Natural trail, Lake Ann Park" for that acquisition of the items named for the installation at Rice Marsh Lake in 1991. Schroers: My opinion on this is that $2,500.00 will much more use at Rice Marsh Lake than it would on a nature trail at Lake Ann and is probably better money spent. Hoffman: And again we've already crippled that $2,500.00. We've taken it from $4,000.00 which we accomplished a pretty good portion of that trail and cut it down to $2,500.00 so it's useless. It remains there as buffer in that line item but it can be used effectively here. Schroers: Okay. Do we have someone interested in making a motion on this? Lash: I would move that we reappropriate $2,250.00 to Rice Marsh Lake Park to buy swings and border and resilient surfacing from the Nature Trail in Lake Ann Park for the 1991 budget. ,.... Andrews: Second. Lash moved, Andrews seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission reappropriate $2,250.00 of the $2,500.00 remaining from the 1991 budget under line item -Nature Trail, Lake Ann Park- for the acquisition of a swingset, border wood and resilient surfacing at Rice Marsh Lake Park. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PARK PROJECT UPDATES: HERMAN FIELD PARK Hoffman: I'm sure you're all interested in these so have read through them. I'm a little aggravated in our progress. However that's basically due to our wet spring and as well our contractor, Finley Bros. that's working on the Lake Susan Project and picked up a job which they could get started on in that type of weather someplace else so they're finishing up that job prior to coming back to Lake Susan so those types of delays have been occurring. Briefly, Herman Field Park. Low base bid was submitted by Bullock Contracting. That was accepted by the Council along with the paving of the access road and parking lot. So our budget of $50,000.00 covers both those items and then the engineering fees on that park. What we're waiting on right now is a wetland alteration permit for the installation of trails within the setback of a wetland and installation of that floating boardwalk. Once that is approved, we will hold a construction meeting shortly thereafter and ensue construction at Herman ,...... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 40 Field Park. ...", Lash: Do you have some kind of a deadline for that? Hoffman: Once they get in there it's probably going to take 6 weeks so we should see early fall completion. And again, it's not something that anybody's anticipating because once it's done there's going to be nothing there but an access road and a flat field which is seeded. Lash: I have a question for Larry on this one. I seem to recall some discussion at one time at a meeting about boardwalks and you didn't seem to be a supporter. Did'you say you had a lot of problems with those or . something? Schroers: Yeah, I think that they have come up with some new designs. It is an item that keeps coming up. There seems to be a small percentage of the population that really likes birding and that sort of thing that a boardwalk offers. But our previous experience with boardwalks is that they're just way too costly to install and maintain. After they've been in place for a while and the vegetation grows around them, when you have to go in and do a repair, it's so almost anchored that you have to bring equipment down that it really does damage in order to get the stuff out so you can repair it. We're getting away from boardwalks. Lash: So what kind of alternatives are there? Schroers: I think what they're doing is they're developing more of a floating resident type of dock where rather than having just styrofoam ...", floats underneath, there's a very durable resident surface that animals are less likely to be able to chew through and cause damage through and that will stand up longer to the natural elements and that sort of thing. And then there again, the cost of that is considerable. Hoffman: This particular piece of boardwalk is not a non-essential piece. It's not something where it augments a trail where the trail could be on dry land but we're putting it into the wetland for, as you quote, the nature aspect. Bird watching and that type of thing. It's a short piece of boardwalk. It's specified as a superdeck which is the same material which is the new Lake Ann raft is constructed of so it's durable. It does not lend itself to be intergrown with vegetation and the park itself is split into two high and dry locations separated by a very narrow wetland area so that's where the proposed boardwalk would go to connect those two walking areas of the park. Schroers: Basically we're talking a bridge? Hoffman: Yeah. Floating bridge. Lash: Okay. --' Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 41 ,.... SOUTH LOTUS LAKE PARK. Hoffman: To move on, South Lotus Lake Park work is continuing very well now. However, due to the rain the completion date was pushed out to this Friday. It's anticipated that they'll be very close to complete by that time. It's coming along. It's looking much nicer than it was in it's former condition. The drainageway will now work effectively so it can handle those torrential type of rainfalls which we've been receiving the past few years. LAKE SUSAN PARK. Hoffman: Lake Susan Park I touched on briefly. Again, it was scheduled to be basically completed by mid-June and we've not started. So that bothers me. I continue to work with the contractor and with our engineers to get that project up and running so we can be complete at least by the August 25th grand opening celebration. Andrews: Are you concerned this contractor is going to be capable of making his deadline? Hoffman: For? Andrews: August 24th. ,.... Hoffman: At Lake Susan, sure. Andrews: I think that somewhat scares me that the guy still hasn't started yet and we've had a considerable stretch of good weather here. Hoffman: My understanding they had another job where them as much as this one. dirt. Now they're trying equipment off of that job first in line. Now we're of what has occurred was during that wet weather they could start on where the wet didn't affect The first thing they have to do is move the to finish that up before they mobilize all their and then come back down here. So we used to be second unfortunately. Lash: Have they made a commitment ,as to a completion date? Hoffman: Completion date, no. Lash: Can you try to. Hoffman: Nail them down? You bet. Lash: Sometimes you have to do that kind of stuff or they just jerk you around forever. Andrews: Are they a contractor we've used before? Hoffman: ...they've done probably some of the best work. Andrews: So there's no reason to be alarmed here yet? Okay. .,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 42 LAKE ANN RECREATION/PICNIC SHELTER. ......"" Hoffman: Moving on to the Lake Ann picnic shelter. Things are moving along nicely. We're into a very long stretch of planning. The design, development, construction documents and then bidding will take approximately 14 weeks so we're into a late fall type of start for construction. Nothing to be alarmed about. However, I'm working very closely with Van Doren-Hazard-Stallings to insure that we have this building up and running. It's useless to get going and to shoot for having this building up and running for next year if we come into a completion date of mid-July. That just does not make ourselves look very good in the public's eye and we don't want to have that happen. Lash: Are you going to have, somebody had mentioned before of having like a picture or a plan of it up at the site for the 4th of July for the ground breaking so people are going to see what it looks like. Hoffman: Yep. Ground breaking will include I'm sure a few short words from the Mayor. Short description of the project and then we'll have some schematic drawings there and enlargements showing the building. Showing the proposed construction schedule. So everybody can get all whooped up and excited. CITY CENTER PARK. Hoffman: Then back down to City Center Park. Chan Elementary School playground. If I could, I'll just spend a minute or two on this. This project continues to evolve. It went worse for many days but then things ~ continued to get better. Problems are always looking for a solution and I think we've come up with some in this case. You have the copy of the plans in front of you. Just to run over them briefly. Again the three locations included are the north playground, the tennis courts and the west playground or the south playground. I'll go through them individually. Schroers: Excuse me Todd. You didn't happen to bring that landscape structure of that particular unit that we were looking at with that? Hoffman: The catalog? Schroers: Yeah the catalog. Hoffman: No. This area has since been squared off so this shows bituminous in the basketball area or the 4 square court area and then it showed kind of angular configuration for the borderwood and pea gravel. That has been squared off to accommodate a larger piece of play structure. Again, as Larry eluded to earlier, this includes a large number amout of money in site improvements. Things such as a common excavation, $2,500.00. Aggregate and base, $2,700.00. Furnish and install the border wood was considerably higher than this but it's now reduced down to $6,400.00. The rock itself is $2,100.00. So just in preparation itself comes to a total of $27,000.00 excluding any equipment in that location. Andrews: Wasn't there an Eagle Scout involved in this project too? ...." Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 43 ,..., Hoffman: He's involved in the north playground. Started work today and they performed very well. The north playground. Lash: Oh wait. Could you back up for a second? Where it angled before, right to the left of that. Like to the left of the swings there's sort of a rectangle that has some thing. What is that? I can't tell what's in there. Hoffman: That's labeled on there as the Climber A. It's typically referred to as the spider climber but it's current location is too close to the swingset so a child can jump from that and hang himself on the pole comes down off of the swingset so the separation is not good at the present time. Lash: No. I maybe have my paper turned different. It would be on the north side of the swings. Hoffman: Oh the rings? Lash: Okay, that's what it is. Hoffman: A set of rings that are out there as part of the vitacourse. Those are outsid~. They're continued to be used until they're in such a condition that... ,...... Lash: So now is the hope then that if we allocate a little more funding next year that we'd be able to put in more play equipment in this area that's been squared off then? Hoffman: Correct. And again we've trimmed down the original estimates we've trimmed that project down. Made use of the City labor in instances to cut back on the contract and have more money on the bottom line for play equipment in this location. Lash: Okay, and then the slide that's been relocated from the north area, is that the tall, old slide that was over there. Hoffman: removed. The tall slide is currently in this location. It needs to be The school district is taking care of that removal. Lash: So then you're bringing the old slide from the north area? Hoffman: Correct. Coming down to this location there will be a new slide installed on the north site. Lash: And then climber B is the big thing that's out there now? Hoffman: Correct. And it's used extensively. The Phy Ed teachers wanted to keep it so what's in the contract is to remove it, dig a trench, sink it down and resecure it. Lash: So it's maybe a little safer? ,...... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 44 Hoffman: Also add an alternate on the contract to provide a new geodesic climber. . . ~ Lash: Thank you. Hoffman: If anybody's interested in the drainage pattern. It was very difficult to get all the water from this area down into this drainage swale and out into the parking lot so the drainage, the PVC pipe is included to run through this area. Hook up to a concrete pipe running underneath the berm and then emptying down into the current hockey areas. So that's how the drainage is being handled. Again the north side, this involves removal of the old border which has been completed. The maintenance people went out there with a Bobcat and pulled it up. The Boy Scouts ripped it apart. Took all the nails out. Piled it up for removal. That's been completed to date. We will be purchasing the border wood which will be installed by the Boy Scouts and then we'll also be purchasing either Phases 1 and 2 or all phases 1, 2 and 3 of the handicap equipment. It's come about that we'll be using city crews to install that equipment. Guidelines attached to the HUD money or the federal block grant money, that $20,000.00 necessitated that you have to follow federal related guidelines or more or less hire union contractors if you're going to use that money for any type of labor. So what's had to happen is we separated this into two contracts. One for the purchase of handicap equipment only and one for the provision of all the L~ork related to the project. Then to accommodate that, we'll have city crews work to install the handicap equipment. It stretches our dollar and it also stretches our work forces so. Any questions on the north site? Tennis courts. I've always been hit upon in this location that they need some work...the project will look very nice and be serviceable for many --' years into the future. My main concern was that the cracks were going to reappear and they will show up as structural cracks or stress cracks. Again, in some of those locations where the large cracks are right now but they should not come back in the near future. The large cracks which there currently are. Estimated total for this is $26,265.00 at the current time to have those tennis courts refurbished. That will include as well picking up the center median... The last item which is included in your plan packet are the phases of equipment for the north playground. In this orientation as it sits up there, Phase 1 and 2 are bid. That will be a straight forward bid. Phase 3 is an add-on so we'll bid those separately. It's a separate contract. We have $20,000.00 to work with here so we can be flexible. We added in the border wood and pea gravel and those types of things. If we end up somewhat short, they will allow us to charge off a portion of the City's labor to this contract as well. So as discussed earlier by Larry and as discussed in our last Thursday evening meeting, we're not going the pie in the sky that everybody would like but we are getting a major improvement at the school site. This estimate has been reduced so what we have left over will approximate .10,000.00 to $16,000.00 to buy play equipment for the south playground and we'll accept proposals from vendors...with that accepted vendor to go ahead and supply and install that equipment on the south playground. Lash: $10,000.00 to $15,000.00 additional to what is shown on the plan? ..."", ,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 45 Hoffman: Again, these numbers are confidential. The project is out for bid at this time. Schroers: I'm not sure that I heard that right. We don't have $10,000.00 or $15,000.00 to acquire more than is shown on the plan currently? Hoffman: At this point we do. With the reduction, taking out the labor on that north playground, we save some money there. We changed, instead of going with a redwood border we're going to go with green treated which cuts the project down considerably. Instead of going with the 2 inch overlay on the tennis courts, it's reduced down to an inch and a half. We pulled out painting of the lines which was $1,500.00 on the basketball, tether court areas. Either the school district or park personnel will complete that. They had items in the contract such as removal of the existing, removal of the swing. Removal of the merry-go-round. Those types of things. We pulled those out of there and made an agreement with the school that they l~ill remove those pieces of equipment so we pared this down considerably and the base bid with contingency, with engineering fees add up and then leave us, depending on where the bids come in, an estimated $10,000.00 to $15,000.00 for purchase of equipment on the south side. So it's been a long drawn out process but the product which we end up with is going to be very nice. Schroers: What we might want to know though is that the structure that we are looking at was currently listed in the catalog at $42,000.00 so if we do end up with $15,000.00, we're still 25 grand short of what we'd like to have. ;""" Hoffman: Yep, and that's product only. Not installation. If you tack on installation on a $40,000.00 piece it turns into $50,000.00. Schroers: So I guess I don't want to leave the commission with the impression that we're fat on that project. Hoffman: Hunky dory. No, we're not. Lash: Well and $10,000.00 or $15,000.00 doesn't buy very much either. Hoffman: No. We purchased a piece for south Lotus at 10 and a piece for Sunset Ridge at 12 so we have some knowledge as to what that buys. Schroers: Okay, does that conclude item 9? Hoffman: Yep. Unless there's any other specific questions. Koubsky: Could I ask you Todd, you mentioned Sunset Ridge. How the schedule is looking on that project. Hoffman: Dale was in the other morning. We talked about upcoming prioritization of projects. And again, before the play equipment can be installed at that location and before the ballfield can be constructed there, we need to go ahead and do the finished grading so he's been disking it. We're waiting on the developer to go ahead and have the boundary line ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 46 on the west side surveyed. It's unclear currently where the exactly boundary is and so Dale will continue to work the park site out there. Work it up and get it new fine graded and type of surface. Then they'll come in and they'll subcut for the volleyball court. They'll subcut for the aggregate which is on the ballfield. Haul that in so you'll see that going in and then they'll seed and potentially mulch the park and then come in after that with installation of play equipment and other things. The backstop and that type of equipment for the park. So it's going to be late in the year. It's nothing that we have to look forward to in the near future. .,.", Koubsky: I've been asked by some of the residents who abut that park. The disking and grading doesn't go up to the residents property line and is that the intent? Hoffman: No. It's just currently he's just in there doing the bulk of the park. Once we get down to the fine grading and that type of thing. They didn't grade them along the trailway either. Dale was just unclear when he was out there doing that. We need to go out there and verify exactly where all those back lot lines are. It's a scenario where the first time you're establishing the park lawful boundary at this time and it just takes some coordination to do that so you're not tilling up somebody's backyard or you're staying 10 feet back so 5 years later you find out that somebody's been maintaining their yard 10 feet out into the park. So there's been some footwork to be done there. But it will be, we'Ve talked about that and I've received those calls as well. Schroers: Okay, anything else? .,.", COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS: Schroers: Can we move on to Commission Presentations? Do we have any? Lash: I have a couple questions, and I know we already talked before the meeting about the dock and the garbage cans down at Greenwood Shores but it continues to be an aggravation to me that these dilinquents are vandalizing these things repeatedly. I made some suggestions. Already have solutions for them and as long as it continues to be a problem I think we need to address it. Another, I noticed the other day on the trail between Greenwood Shores and Lake Ann it was mowed real nice on both sides and everything but there's some areas where it's getting kind of a jungle effect. When you're trying to walk through the branches are starting to grow so close together across the trail you can't hardly get through. Schroers: There is actually some safety concerns with branches. If someone was unaware and came through there fast with a bicycle like that would be hit in the eye. Hoffman: I would propose we go ahead and take care of those emminent problems at this time and then take a major clearing effort sometime later on in the year. ...." Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 47 "..... Lash: It's closer to the Greenwood Shores side. If they want to know how to access it easiest. And then I had a couple of comments and this is probably typical and I just am not knowledgeable in this area. But from some players who were on the new fields last week, that it's so rough and hard now. Is that typical and are we going to do some like reseeding this fall to try to smooth that our or what do you do with that? Hoffman: The fields are very hard and it's a new surface. Again, it remains as basically a rock hard baked dirt surface with some grass growing on it. It's not turf as of yet. As that turf establishes itself, old turf becomes a buffer. Like the othel" fields have grass and then they have residue and they have some buffer zones. Some black dirt that they've built up underneath that so it acts more as a cushion. Those fields are very hard and next year they'll get better. The year after that they'll be better yet. But there's nothing you can do to them to create a better surface. ""'" , Lash: Okay. And then last week up here at Pee Wee's, one of the coaches, it was on Thursday night when it was raining. We ended up calling the game any~~ay but we were on the field closest to the elementary school and a coach not knowledgeable in how things are funded was complaining how that field. He doesn't think that field was maintained properly because anytime it rains there's always puddles around all of the bases and the other fields don't have those. He figures if the City's getting 20 bucks a kid the least they can do is have those bases you know. I didn't really want to get into him about where the money was going and start a big thing but I just thought I'd pass that on. That he's kind of concerned about that. And then also the one field in particular at Lake Ann, the new one. Field 5. I was watching a game on there last week and I saw a guy, and typically these guys are not running that fast okay. But in this one particular instance I think he tripped so he was going faster than usual and this guy just bammed into the backstop and just about stained himself through it. Then somebody said well that backstop looks like it's really close behind home base. That should have been backed up. Now is that standard? Hoffman: 25 feet, yeah. Lash: And that's a standard measurement? Hoffman: You bet. Schroers: Can I add to that? numbers also facing the other and Field 6 is without having back. On the new fields, people would like the fields so that they know what field Field 5 to go walk down to the backstop and look Hoffman: I've already taken care of that. I called back the day they were put up. I went out there and said, you've got to be able to know what these fields are from the back side. So I called up Dave Owen to see if they could apply that number onto the back so rather than taking them down at this time, we'll wait until the season is over. Take them down. Send them back down to landscape and they'll enamel the numbers onto the back side as well. ,....., Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 25, 1991 - Page 48 Lash: Couldn't they just be faced the other direction? If you're out on the field playing, you probably already know where you are. .....", Schroers: But there's parking in the outfield too. Yeah, you need double. Hoffman: Lesson learned. ADMINISTRATIVE SECTION. Schroers: Can we move on to the Administration Section? I think one thing worth noting is the handy work of the little 4th of July flyer here. It's again done well and deserves an atta boy. That's the only thing I have to comment on in there. Pemrick: I liked your spotlight on Chanhassen. I read that in a magazine when it came out. Hoffman: Did you? Pemrick: Yeah, I thought whoa. That was pretty exciting. Schroers: If we just want to have kind of a conversation we can call for a motion to adjourn. Andrews moved, Pemrick seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:50 p.m.. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Recreation Coordinator ...,., Prepared by Nann Opheim -'