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PRC 1991 07 23 ,.... CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JULY 23, 1991 Vice Chairman Andrews called the meeting to order at 7:33 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Wendy Pemrick, Curt Robinson, Jim Andrews, Dave Koubsky and Jan Lash MEMBERS ABSENT: Dawne Erhart and Larry Schroers STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Coordinator and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Supervisor APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Lash moved, Koubsky seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated June 24, 1991 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. VISITOR PRESENTATION: Hoffman: Item 2, I anticipated that Mary Kay Schmidt of Shadowmere development would be here this evening. We had a conversation late in June. She had made a request or inquired about a potential paTk property within the Shadowmere development. At that I had asked her to write a letter to the Commission in that regard. That letter was sent to the city offices with Larry Schroers name on it so they forwarded it then to Larry who's on vacation and did not retrieve the letter until this evening. I contacted her this evening but was unable to get a confirmation so she's ,.... not here. I believe the Commission can go ahead and review the request. She has sent a letter and list of residents showing their wishes. The Commission can go ahead and review that and then make any recommendations as to how they would like staff to progress. We would like to research the history of the Shadowmere development and why parkland was not taken at that time. It's within the service areas of Carver Beach playground and Meadow Green Park and Chanhassen Pond Park at the current time but it is somewhat isolated by the configuration of the road which leads into that area. Andrews: So is this something you need for us to move forward on today or would you want to put this on a future agenda? Hoffman: Correct. I would just want some direction as to how you would like to further pursue it and put it on a future agenda and then again I can contact Miss Schmidt and have her in at a future meeting. Robinson: I think you said this was developed about 3 years ago. I think it'd be interesting to go back at that time and see what reason we did not take parkland at that time. To go and buy that type of property now seems a little spendy. Lash: What's the estimate for the lot cost there? Robinson: I think it's two lots isn't it? "..... Hoffman: Two lots that are shown. Ballpark, $50,000.00 would probably be ballpar k. Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 2 .....", Robinson: Per lot? Andrews: Todd, how close is this to the nearest park with playground and ballfield facilities? Hoffman: Carver Beach or Meadow Green. Carver Beach playground or Meadow Green Park. Andrews: And that would be about how close would you estimate? A mile? Lash: To go to Meadow Green from here wouldn't be. Hoffman: It would be a parent with child type of activity. Lash: They'd have to go all the way down Big Horn and across Kerber and up into Chaparral. Hoffman: Correct. It is within the service area of 1 mile so it's well within that. Koubsky: Has the developer been notified of this petition? Hoffman: This proposal? To my knowledge, yes. As you can see, as noted on her map, Lot 11, which I believe that entire lot, the L shaped lot is Lot 11. The entire lot is stated there for...park. Don statton in litigation with that because unbuildable lot because of the size, setbacks and the nature of the grade. .....,;' Lash: Well after the 14th, if they're going to Court on the 14th, we maybe would have a better idea the status of that lot and if it's declared unbuildable, there's a possibility that maybe we would be able to acquire it for, if they're supportive of this to start with. The builder, maybe they'd be willing to just give it to us if they can't sell it anyway. Hoffman: I believe the development has had some difficulty in maYketing all those lots in that area so the development's not full. Andrews: How many other vacant, buildable lots are in this development would you estimate? Hoffman: I can't estimate that. Through the names, Lot 1, 2. It looks like Tony Ediem has got, must be either a builder. Andrews: He's a builder. Lash: He's a builder and he's the owner of 8 lots. Andrews: Yeah, I would think we'd have a potential enhancement to the builder's chances of selling his lots if we were to be able to put a park in this area. So maybe it's a situation where we could help them and they can help us. Lash: Especially if we had a canoe or a boat access where people could get off of Lotus Lake. That would definitely be a selling feature. ....", Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ July 23, 1991 - Page 3 Robinson: Yeah, you notice that one in the corner is,there's 95 foot of frontage there. I think that's what they said. Lash: Or a small swimming beach or whatever. I would agree with Curt's comments in investigating why it wasn't done in initially. Then after the 14th we'll have more information. Maybe after the 14th you could contact the developer and see if you could sort of feel him out on his position. Hoffman: Sure. Lash: Personally I don't see that we've got $SO,OOO.OO to $100,000.00 to spend on that. We need to have the background to let the residents know. Is there a specific date Jim that you think that we wanted to try to schedule this on the agenda? Andrews: This is set to go up, the Court review date is when, the 14th of August? Hoffman: As stated on here. Andrews: Okay, why don't we put this on the August agenda then for review and see what progress, if any has been made in Court. I think until the Court situation is done with, we're going to make no progress on this at all. It has to be settled. I guess I personally, I feel that there might be a real opportunity here to sort of, I hate to call it arm twisting but ~ I'm sure that the developer could see the benefit of having parkland in this development. I would think that perhaps the land price could be reduced because of that mutual advantage of that park. So let's put it on the agenda for next month. Do we need a motion for that? Hoffman: Yes. To go ahead and investigate it. Lash: Okay, I would move that we direct staff to investigate the history regarding this development of the park property and also to contact the developer, Jim Fenning in regard to the status of Lot 11 in Shadowmere. Robinson: I'd second it. Lash: And that would go onto the August agenda. Lash moved. Robinson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission direct staff to investigate the history pertaining to the Shadowmere development; contact the developer. Jim Fenning in regard to the status of Lot 11. Shadowmere; and to bring the item back on the August agenda. All voted in favor and the motion carried. SITE PLAN REVIEW: LUNDGREN BROS/ORTENBLAT/ERSBO. Hoffman: The location of the proposed development as shown is in the vicinity of Powers Blvd...and across from'Lake Lucy Road. Encircled by this dark boxed area. Just north of the Greenwood Shores neighborhood and just south of Curry Farms. The proposed layout of that particular development is in this configuration. There is a large wetland in this "" Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 4 ....." area...up in this area of the development. Mr. Terry Forbord with Lundgren Bros. is here. Give him an opportunity to speak if you wish. He's here to answer questions that the Commission would have. Surrounding this development is classified for single family residential.. The adjacent zoning currently includes Curry Farms again to the north, existing single family to the south and east and then some large unplatted land to the west. The property does currently lie within the service areas of the Curry Farms Park directly across the street, Pheasant Hill Park which has yet to be developed and Carver Beach Playground. So it is served well by park property currently within the City. The trail plan identifies the on street trail that exists along Lake Lucy Road. This trail abuts the northerly border of this subject property. No trail links or loops are identified in the Comprehensive Plan in relation to this particular piece of property. A trail connection to the south allowing access to Greenwood Shores Park and Lake Ann Park would potentially be desireable because it allows a quick and easy access to get into both Greenwood Shores and the trail system down to Lake Ann. However, accommodating that would be difficult due to the lack of a current easement there at Utica Terrace and Greenwood Shores area. So sufficient right-of-way via Lake Lucy Road is available to allow the future construction of an off street trail if that was deemed necessary as Lake Lucy became increasingly busy from the future development in that particular area. It is recommended that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the City Council accept full park and trail fees in lieu of parkland dedication and/or trail construction for the Ortenblat and Ersbo subdivision due to the reasons I stated previously. Andrews: Terry, do you have anything more you'd like to add about the development? ....." Terry Forbord: I'm just here to answer any questions that anybody has. Andrews: Okay, are there? Lash: I happen to live in Greenwood Shores so I'm familiar with this and I guess I'm a little bit interested in the lots that will be backing directly up to Greenwood Shores on that cul-de-sac shown there. Is that, is it not swampy up in that area? Terry Forbord: If I may, we have some exhibits over here unless they were removed in the last 48 hours. Lash: I'm pretty sure from looking at this that 7, 8, 9 and 10 would all be pretty wet. But I'm not up on the other end and I'm not quite sure. And will that cul-de-sac then come out very close to Utica Terrace? I mean am I looking at this straight? Terry Forbord: I'll try to address all your questions. This is an aerial topography map. It was done for the City of Chanhassen I believe in the last 24 months the City did the entire city so they would have aerial photos for topography. I'll turn this around so north will be up. This is Lake Lucy Road. This is the Ortenblat property. This is the Ersbo property. Some of you may have been on the Park Commission long enough to remember the Ersbo plat. We are replatting that property. It's kind of an unsightly plan... There are 6 or 7 wetlands on this property. Now ...." Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ July 23, 1991 - Page 5 typically when you have a piece of property with wetlands, they're usually concentrated on one part of the property. This is a very unusual assembly of land in that the wetland happen to be scattered here and there. Some of them are very small. Some of "them are probably just as small as the area we're standing in. I mean just right in this area. But nonetheless because of the vegetation, the type of vegetation...wetland certainly need to be dealt with accordingly. There's also steep slopes, vegetation and some larger wetlands, houses, things like that, roads which make it a real tough site to develop. .. .is certainly more challenging than others but down in this area, you can see in this lighted area, I'm going to switch exhibits here because this one is so difficult to see. I just wanted you to see that. Same direction. This is north. This is the subject property. This is the wetland down in the southeast corner and I believe you were asking about this area? Lash: Well, I know that that area down there is very wet and I was wondering about around the cul-de-sac down there. That area. Terry Forbord: There is an existing wetland right here and there is an small little wetland right here and most of these wetlands, first of all these wetlands were created by man... I know you...I won't because it will open up a can of worms and I can talk about this for 3 hours and it doesn't have anything to do with planning parks but we are mitigating the wetlands so wetlands that have to be removed because of roadway right-of-way, we'll be building new wetlands. And a lot of, we've hired the top people in the ~. region. Frank Svoboda who I believe is also being hired by the City of Chanhassen to assist the City in their storm water management plan in protection of their own wetlands...Needless to say, all these wetlands are being taken into very careful consideration because it is sensitive. Any area that has any wetlands in Chanhassen certainly has more than... But on the layout and everything else has been, all those things that you just mentioned have been taken into consideration. Lash: So the cul-de-sac down in the bottom left hand corner, that would be close to utica Terrace? Terry Forbord: utica Terrace actually.. .that shows where it is. This will probably be the best thing that I have here but there's a hill right here. Utica Terrace is down in this area. Some of the residents from your neighborhood attended the informational meeting that I had and... They expressed very clearly that they do not want to have any trails connected through their property. But I would imagine that there's a couple lots in here,..Utica Terrace I believe is a cul-de-sac that probably is somewhere right in there. Approximately. Does anybody else have any questions? Lash: My only other concern would be, and I realize that Curry Farms Park is just going to be on the other side of Lake Lucy Road but if I lived in this development, I would not want my children to cross Lake Lucy Road to get to a park alone. I don't know if that's something we want to, that's more of a public safety thing I guess. .,.... Terry Forbord: It's a concern though that I think anybody would have. In any given situation. The other night I was at the City Council meeting there was a lot of discussion about roads and safety and it's very apparent Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 6 ...."" that those same concerns are felt by everybody everywhere. So I think those are the type of things that are always challenging whether it would be in this neighborhood or an existing neighborhood and it's one that parents...to teach their children when riding on the street. Lash: I just don't want that one to come back to haunt us in about 5 years when the people who live there are upset because their kids have to cross Lake Lucy Road to get to a park. Andrews: How many total lots are we plotting here? Terry Forbord: There's a total of 37 lots. Two of them have existing homes on them. This area is guided residential single family. It is the Land Use Guide Plan calls for that type of zoning. R5F zoning ranges from a density of 1.4 dwelling units per acre. In this particular proposal there's 1.24 dwelling units per acre so it's the very lowest. Now even if you took the wetland out, it would be 1.4 which is still low... Andrews: These are larger than average? Terry Forbord: The size required in the zoning district is 15,000 square feet minimum. The average lot size in here, if you incorporate all the lots, and two of them have homes on there now, would be 30,000 square feet. I think if you took those two existing homesteads out. One of them is fairly large. The Ersbo property. The Ersbo property, the only way and I don't know if those of you are familiar with the current plat of the Ersbo property but there's just a cul-de-sac that comes in here. It's platted. It's of record. They can start building there as soon as they get a building permit if they would like to. It's an unsightly plat that has no feel to it whatsoever and what we've proposed to do, really we acquired it to protect ourselves because we didn't want something to go in there that would hurt us. Plus the City, engineering and planning staff preferred to have a loop road that would go like this so there was a connection versus just two cul-de-sacs. But because...the Ersbo property, the only way that he would do the transaction would be if he had a larger lot. So I think even if you took that out, you would find that these lots are probably 22,000-23,000 square feet average. We're not trying to get as many lots in here as we could. If we wanted that, you'd see more lots in here because we could do them and do the zoning regulations. ...." Andrews: Any other questions or comments from this commission? Would somebody like to put forward a motion please? Robinson: Yeah I'd make a motion that we'd recommend the City Council accept full park and trail fees in lieu of parkland dedication and/or trail construction for this subdivision. Andrews: Do we have a second? Can I second it? Am I allowed to do that? I'll second the motion. Okay, any other discussion or questions or comments before we take a vote? Lash: I guess I'm just not comfortable with the. I realize it's within the service area and usually I'm not that greedy but I'm afraid it's going to come back and haunt us if we don't acquire something. -"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting .~ July 23, 1991 - Page 7 Pemrick: That's a lot of homes and a lot of potential. Lash: What do you think? I mean I know it was your recommendation that we not. Hoffman: Based on the number of homes which would go in there, we would be able to acquire, if it was gone ahead and looked at, less than 2 acres of property. Again then that would drain our financial means of gathering financial support for our park acquisition and development fund at that point and obviously it would reduce the number of lots in that development. For the developer and the owners of the property. It is across the street from, on Lake Lucy Road which is a major road. It's a major thoroughfare. It's a collector. It's busy today. It will continue to get more busy. Curry Farms Park is just a stone's throwaway. It's directly across the street. If parents are concerned about their children, their families crossing that street, this is a small enough loop road where potentially if they want to send them there, they could walk them to the road such as they do at a bus stop. Follow them across the street. That type of thing and return home. But again, in 37 homes it's not as large as Curry Farms but again it is a good chunk of homes. There's going to be many families there and they're going to be crossing the street to Lake Lucy if there is not a park there. Robinson: Could there be signage or some kind of a traffic control put on Lake Lucy Road where they would be expected to cross which is at the ~ entrance there I suppose? Lash: And that was a concern with pheasant Hills from the people who lived on the south side of Lake Lucy Road too was their kids crossing to get over to pheasant Hills. And I don't know the different options that are available in the public safety area. If it's something where they could put up a crosswalk and a flashing light or speed bumps. I don't know what can happen. I think we'd be kind of derelict in our responsibility to just send this right through without giving that some thought because I think in the future it's going to be a problem. Hoffman: We would need to take a look at that and address that with the Public Safety Commission and with the engineering department. What kind of signage would be able to go into that area. The accesses are directly across from Arlington Court which is a court. Devonshire Drive happens to end up in the middle of the lot line there are you can see so it's not a direct crossing from either the public street as it's labeled there either. Those egress points. Andrews: Terry, you had a comment? Terry Forbord: Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission. I didn't prepare a presentation for a number of reasons but I would like to keep a couple things in perspective on this particular piece of property. There's a total of 30 acres. The upland area is probably close to about 21 acres, if that. I know you've heard these types of statements because and I'm not telling you this. There's no smoke in mirrors in this statement. If 2 acres were taken out of this piece of property to have some type of park, nobody would develop it. I would withdraw my application. The dynamics of ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 8 ....". a piece of property like this, when you have 30 total acres, gross acres, where only 2/3 of it are useable because of the type of, there's so many wetlands on the property, the dynamics, the reality of it is the fact that you couldn't put a park there and make it work. And there are a number, I'm sure there are other parcels in this City that have a similiar circumstance. I know you all have studied the comprehensive plan and had input in that. The Urban Service Area was just expanded to include all of the land westerly along Lake Lucy Road and a great more acres of land that is off Lake Lucy Road. There are some significant large parcels of property in those areas that will be developed sooner rather than later. It seems more appropriate to me for this city to be able to have a park that more people in the area could use. This piece of property will not develop if there's a park on it. Not by Lundgren Bros. or anybody just because the dynamics wouldn't work and I think that the staff realizes that themselves because they deal with this stuff so often and I think that's probably why they recommended that in lieu of a dedication of land, to be able to approve the plat and take the money and apply it to a park somewhere where they can utilize it. Now the safety issue I think is an issue that needs to be dealt with whether there would be a park here or not. Or whether there was a park at Curry Farms or not. My personal belief is that even if there wasn't a park in Curry Farms, that there's going to need to be from a traffic safety standpoint some crosswalks on Lake Lucy Road for people to be able to cross. I mean that's going to be a given. I would certainly think that as development occurs, and it will along Lake Lucy Road, that that method of allowing people to cross in a safe zone so to speak, would be implemented. Andrews: Can you read back the motion we have in front of us? ..."" Hoffman: The motion was made to approve the Ortenblat/Ersbo subdivision recommending to City Council accept full park and trail fees in lieu of parkland dedication and trail construction. Andrews: Let's call the vote. If it doesn't carry the vote, we'll entertain a new motion. Robinson moved, Andrews seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council accept park and trail fees in lieu of parkland dedication and/or trail construction'for the Ortenblat/Ersbo/ Lundren Bros. Subdivision. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Hoffman: To make one comment on the comment by Mr. Forbord. Staff does not make recommendations based on the presumed hardship of developers so that would not be a reason for us to make a recommendation. Lash: Did you say that you would then contact Public Safety regarding this? Hoffman: Sure. We can run it through them to see as it moves through the approval process what potential things we can be taking a look at to potentially look to a crosswalk or some other type of safety signage. Lash: I would certainly like to see that be addressed before people have to come forward. ..."" Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ July 23, 1991 - Page 9 Andrews: The other comment I'd like to make too is that Lundgren Bros. does have an interest also in seeing a safe crosswalk because that enhances the value of their development so I'm sure there will be ample pressure along Lake Lucy Road, both here and other areas where traffic is going to develop where we're going to need traffic control. There's no doubt about it. Robinson: Yeah, is the property just to the west of this site undeveloped? Hoffman: It's a large, unplatted single family home. SITE PLAN REVIEW: AMERICANA BANK. Hoffman: This is a PUD amendment. Planned unit Development amendment to replat a portion of Market Square PUD and for a site plan for a 7,740 square foot building, a bank on the property zoned PUD and located in the southwest corner of West 78th Street and Market Blvd.. The applicant again is Americana Bank. The location is just. ..City Hall being in this location. The proposed bank being in the corner of the proposed supermarket and shopping mall location. This particular piece of property is an outlot for that entire parcel. The layout as you have in your packet, this is the site of the bank. This is City Hall up in this location. 78th coming around and Market Blvd. going down with the bowling complex across the street. The present zoning of this property is PUD. The adjacent zoning to the north is Office Industrial District. To the ~ south is General Business. To the east is the Central Business District or our downtown and to the west again is the general business district. Comprehensive plan identifies this property as lying within service areas of City Center Park. Acquisition of additional parkland from this parcel is not reasonable or desireable. The comprehensive trail plan does identify the property as lying within the downtown business district and as in the remainder of the downtown, pedestrian walkways are to be installed. Walkways are currently depicted on the proposed plan as bituminous. However, all walkways in the downtown will be constructed of concrete and both their architect and Americana Bank has agreed to that particular point. Again it's very straight forward. The recommendation would be that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the City Council accept full park and trail fees as part of this development. The trail fee credit for construction of walkways is not deemed necessary as no credits have been given in any previous cases of development in the tax increment district. Businesses located in this district are to pay full development fees. Lash: Is the sidewalk also along Market? Hoffman: As shown there, I believe it is. On the opposite side of the street it is in bituminous but it would be on the west side in concrete to lead down then in front of the supermarket and down to the bus shelter which is across the street. Lash: So concrete on Market or not? ~ Hoffman: Concrete on Market, correct. The trail which is just across the street is presently bituminous. Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23. 1991 - Page 10 --' Andrews: Any other questions? Comments? Is there anybody here from the audience here to speak on this issue? Can we have a motion please? Lash: I recommend that we accept full park and trail fees for the. what is it, Americana Bank. Pemrick: I'll second it. Andrews: I was just wondering as a friendly amendment if we could specify that no credit be given for construction of concrete sidewalks as per other developments in the area. Is that okay? Lash moved, Pemrick seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council accept full park and trail fees as part of this development. A trail fee credit for constrution of walkways is not deemed necessary as no credits have been given in any previous cases of development in the tax increment district. All voted in favor and the motion carried. 1991 REPORT TO THE CITY COUNCIL. Hoffman: Item 4 concerns the 1991 report to the City Council. I need to apologize. I believe this is probably what Don and Richard are here for. This was the original memo which you received at the meeting prior. I did change that memo and then upon leaving on vacation Karen finalized the packet and sent off my original memo. My new memo explained that this entire report of the 1991 report to the City Council is all part of the new ~ 1992 budget process and as such would be included in that process as we worked through it. It would just be premature formulating our report to the City Council concerning our 1991 activities until we get farther into this budget process. However, did you both just come out of that particular item or just out of general interest? General interest? Okay. And so if there's any points that either Don or Richard would specifically like to see addressed in our report to the City Council along with their 1992 budget requests, we can hear from them tonight. Otherwise the Commission will discuss this further. Because the next item we discussed or the sixth item when we discuss it, again our initial proposals for 1992 budget requests. Andrews: So this is going to be deferred then? Hoffman: Correct. 1991 FOURTH OF JULY EVALUATION. Ruegemer: In looking at the annual 4th of July Celebration, it's in the interest of our department to come up with an informational tool in bettering the celebration for the next year. In gathering information and as evaluation is compiled of the actual events and the overall celebration, I would like to take a look at that but first I would like to thank all the commission members that volunteered their time to make the celebration a very well received to the community and very nice celebration. We have had heard a lot of good comments about the celebration and everybody seemed to ....." Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ July 23, 1991 - Page 11 enjoy themselves thoroughly. I'd just like to recognize commissioners who were present in volunteering. I would like to thank them and I'd also like to, I don't know if mentions here in the evaluation but I'd also like to recognize the Rotary for a fabulous job they did also in working the concessions up at the City Center Park. Lake Ann Park on Thursday and down by the beach and also during the ball tournament on Saturday. They were out there a number of hours and really did a very wonderful job. Everyone was appreciative of concessions on the hot days that were along with the celebration itself so. And also I'd like to briefly go through the evaluation and I'd like comments or questions that any of the commissioners would have just to feel free to talk about those. So in looking at these evaluations we go through each individual event and write down and look at things that we ourselves, the staff would take a look at for next year in bettering those events and also comments that we hear from the public or other staff members or anybody that really has any type of comment with the events. With that information we compile this information to take an overall look of the 4th of July celebration itself. How we can better it. What type of things that we can do differently next tim~. Areas that we can improve. With this information we put it in the file and come next year as we're looking back on this, we can get a better grasp of what we're doing as far as the setup and development of the 4th of July celebration. So at this time I'd just like to open it up to the Commission members. Any questions or comments that they would have concerning the 4th of July celebration. .~ Andrews: The comments I got back from neighbors were extremely positive. I think this event is just going to snowball each year as more and more people come and experience and see how much fun it is. I think it was a lot of fun. I think a lot of people put in time. I wish I could thank them all. Ruegemer: If I could just interject here for a minute. If there's any specific event that a commissioner would like to comment on, your comments would be welcome. Lash: I guess the carnival games, you said they were very popular. Maybe an additional new game could be added. I guess I would go along with that. I think they are very popular. Andrews: Would there be any chance that we could obtain carnival rides of a little bit more advanced stage? They don't have to be that 200 foot ferris wheel but the ones we have now are these little cars that go in circles and they're good for kids up about 4 or 5 years old can be modestly entertained but there's not a lot for the 8 to 15 year old. I wonder if there's something we can look into or if that's something we purposely avoid...reasons or what. I think we're drawing a big enough crowd now for this where we could probably attract a larger program of rides. Hoffman: There's been discussion among staff the entire time that I've been here that many of these town festivals go ahead and invite the carnival ride type of vendor into their festival and carry some liability but most anything does in life. If it's looked upon as a favorable addition, we could certainly investigate it and see what type of, obviously that's a pretty time of the season or year for those folks and you almost ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 12 ......" have to step in line in which vendor we could get and how much it would be but there's obviously plenty of room just to go from the warming house north and then spread them out along the grass. It would not have to be on concrete or bituminous surface as in many communities. Lash: One of the nice things about it now, I'm not saying whether I like the idea or not because I have to kick it around a little bit but one of the nice things about it, my kids love it and they're in the 8 to 15 year old range. They love the games and they love the music and they get to see their friends from school that they haven't seen for a month. Another nice thing that I've heard from people is it's a nice time. You can go up there with your whole family. It's not expensive and if we did have a lot of rides up there, that gets to be costly then when your kids are nagging you all night long to go on rides. So it's one time you can go and do something with your whole family and it doesn't cost you $50.00. You can get by pretty cheap and my kids just love it. It's almost one of the highlights of their summer. They think that's really a ball having a band. I heard one comment on the band and that was, it was a much better band last year. I would say next year to publicize in the Bulletin the rain out dates for the band. The fishing contest for the kids was great. I think they all, it does get crowded out on that pier and it was so icky that day that there weren't that many willing to go in the water to fish. I don't know what we can do about it but I see.that was mentioned in here. Maybe there'd be another option for kids. I don't know. It's a good way to get rid of the bullheads. What was the biggest one? Hoffman: 2 pound, 6 ounce carp? ...." Lash: Yeah. Good way to get rid of all that junk out of the lake. Koubsky: I suppose my comment. I wasn't able to attend because of some family scheduling but I do work with a lot of other people in the area who got out and saw fireworks on Minnetonka and got out at Eden Prairie and the word was that Chanhassen had the best fireworks in the area. So just a comment that was noted outside of our area that this was the place to see fireworks. Hoffman: Look out next year. Andrews: Well it's not only the fireworks themselves are good. We've got an exceptionally good spot to show the fireworks. That's what makes it half the fun. You have a beautiful beach and it was a beautiful night for fireworks. Just ideal. Hoffman: I was curious to see how the parking was going so we drove around in the Cushman through the park and there was still parking available in the new section so it filled up nicely with that additional parking. In past years we went ahead and did overflow parking out on Field ~3 but it wasn't necessary. And then departing the park afterwards went fairly smoothly as well. I think it lasted about 20 minutes which isn't too bad. Lash: Well I thought it was great. It was a lot of fun. .....". i1"". Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 13 Hoffman: the blue step and have had One comment that I'd like to make is that Jan Lash does deserve ribbon volunteerism award. She was there at every turn of the helped out just a tremendous amount. Without assistance we would a much more difficult time pulling off the entire event. Lash: Thanks Todd. I'll do the raffle again next year. I like that. Ruegemer: That was fun wasn't it? Lash: one. That was a good idea. Whoever came up with that. That was a good I think everybody liked that. Maybe we should set up a Bingo. Andrews: Did we liquidate our t-shirt inventory pretty good? Hoffman: Fairly well. It was disappointing over past years. We've never had that many t-shirts left over. We put them on sale and left them up in the lobby over the past 2 weeks. We'll pull them in now and save them for next year for prizes and that type of thing. Lash: Were you selling them on the 4th down at Lake Ann too? Hoffman: Sold them at the entrance as they came into the park there. They're a nice souvenir. You can't beat them but the public's just not responding to it so potentially we may pull them out a year to the general population for selling them but just have shirts for volunteers. "..... Lash: Yeah, maybe we could have some of them as the raffle prizes too. You know that just brought to mind one thing. When we give those away as prizes next year. I mean it's a nice prize except if you're a size 16 and you get a size 8 shirt, you can't get really too fired up about that. Hoffman: Yeah, you've got to give it to your little sister or brother if you even have one. The shirts aren't an item to make money. They're purely a promotional memorabilia type of item for the event. So we'll need to evaluate those sales. Lash: They're getting to be my whole summer wardrobe. I've gotten 3 or 4 of them now. Andrews: Any other comments? Mayor Chmiel: I'd like to commend staff on the job that they did. They just literally ran their legs off and did well. I think besides the enthusiasm... I'd like to thank them and the Commission... Hoffman: Thank you Don. 1992 BUDGET. WORKSESSION. Hoffman: Item number 6 is a worksession for the 1992 budget process. At the June 25th meeting we had an initial worksession. The results of that discussion have been combined with a list tabulated by staff over the past 6 to 8 months. As things have come up we've jotted those down and included ~ them in this list. It's very easy to use this list in conjunction with the Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 14 -'" 1991 park inventory to go ahead and see what currently i~ in our parks and what potentially is being proposed for 1992. Developments and improvements to the park so we can kind of create that balance in both our old and new parks which we have here within the city. Again this dialogue is preliminary but it's a very vital step in the development of the capital improvement program as we get closer to that timeframe where it needs to be firmed up. Having this in our vest pocket to go ~head and look back to is a very valuable tool. The dollar estimates for each of these individual items are not affixed at this time. Once we refine it somewhat then we'll go ahead and begin investigating with the commission the estimated dollar amounts for each one of these particular improvements and continue to refine it from there. A few additions prior to the start of the discussion would be to Lake Ann Park. The omission of the conversion of Field #2 to a Little League field. That was approved by the Commission and we'll need to go ahead and budget some dollars for that. My intent is to go ahead and perform that project in house with our own staff and then as well to make use of volunteers from the parents. I've heard to date there's a consortium of about 10 parents who are willing to work on this particular project so we'll take advantage of those folks as well. Then again on Lake Ann Park, 3 canoes are listed there. 2 as rental canoes and then one is kind of a chase boat. Anytime we get into that boat, recreational vehicle rental type of business, we need to have a chase boat for people who end up on the other side of the lake and don't have the gumption to get back across the wind. I would propose to change that to 2 canoes for rental and a small rowboat which is much easier to handle in the case of a potential problem. It's easier to, not as potential for tipping and that type of thing when you border up to another boat. . Then as well, this entire arena of recreational vehicles there's the paddleboats, canoes, the watertryks ~ which are unbelieveably popular. Jim may as well get into sailboats. What's the other ones? The surfboards with the. Andrews: Windsurfers. Hoffman: Yes, thank you. But there's another one as well which ar~ unbelieveably popular. The small kayaks where they're about 8 feel long for 1 person and children as well as adults just love them. You get in and use a kayak paddle. Double edged kayak paddle including half a dozen of those kayaks which come fairly reasonable and would be rented on a fairly consistent basis would be desireable as well. Those would be the only changes. Jim, go ahead and run through this in whatever fashion you like with the commission and we'll go ahead and take notes. Andrews: I guess what I'd like to do, if it'd be okay. To me one of the things we tried to do last year and carry forth into this year and hopefully into next year is we were looking at some prioritizing of Lake Ann and City Center Parks as being areas that we wanted to really try to complete. I don't know if anybody disagrees with that but I guess with that in mind. Jan, if you don't mind, why don't we start with you and we'll work it down the commission here. Items that you feel are important or items that you feel would be as high a.priority. We'll try to weed it out that way. Lash: How about if we just did it one park at a time? . --' ",.. Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 15 Andrews: One park at a time? That's fine. Let's do that. Lash: That would maybe be a little faster. Andrews: Okay. Why don't we skip right to Bandimere? Well I think we can skip Bandimere Heights Park. Park sign I think is an obvious item. We're going to do that for all parks. Hoffman: Right. We're just picking up the ones that are left without a sign. The things occurring at Bandimere Community Park are such things as closing up of the well. Disconnecting the utilities from the buildings which are there. Our parks maintenance in conjunction with the fire department has taken down the barn. It was a severe safety hazard. They've taken down that and boarded up the building and will be using that for training and that type of thing until such time as we start active development in the area. Andrews: The farm house is gone already or will be gone? Hoffman: The farm house is boarded up. Will be used for fire training. Smoke runs. That type of thing. Andrews: I know at some point there was some interest in preservation. I don't recall what that was but it's certainly an unsafe building as it stands. Okay. I think we could move to Carver Beach Park as our first ~ park. I guess it says play area corrections. If you could fill us in Todd on just a bit more detail there. Hoffman: Carver Beach, this is the beach location on the south side. The slide there is very steep pitch. It's a substandard slide installation. We would go ahead and correct that and then there's no resilient surfacing or pea rock at that particular play structure. It's just a very small play structure but it still indeed needs border wood and rock surfacing in that location. Then as well a potential. Lash: Is this the one down by the beach? Hoffman: Correct. Right down by the beach. Just below the parking lot which the Boy Scouts constructed in that location. Andrews: Is there anybody that has any additions or deletions for Carver Beach Playground? Lash: As far as the spring animals go, do you have a real good feel for age range over in that area because those are for pretty little kids. Hoffman: There's a couple daycares in the area and other than that Carver Beach is really a mixed neighborhood. It's not a brand new neighborhood which is attracting just the young families. There was the addition to the play structure added this year. The spring animals would be added just to add extra excitement to the particular play area. The swingset is, it's old. It's still useful but it's not worth dumping in a lot of money to buy new brackets and new swing belts and that type of thing. We could probably limp along in that particular swing there for another year. Just continue .,..... Pa,k and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 16 ......" to ,e-evaluate it on a yea, to yea, basis. And,ews: I believe what I'm hea,ing is we have no deletions or additions for that. Chanhassen Estates, pa,k sign. Why don't we move to Chanhassen Hills Park. Lash: I look at that as somewhat a priority. Not that we can do all of it. What would be the next phase? Hoffman: Again, Chan Hills is a perfect example that you're indeed correct. We can't accomplish all of those but initial phase development there included the play st,ucture. The first phase of the play structure and the volleyball cou,t and it was not included in the 1991 capital improvement program so it potentially should be included in 1992. But it's fo, the Commission to wrestle with. Lash: What do you think would be the next logical? Hoffman: Ballfield construction because it has a major impact. Visual imapct and as well it's less expensive than some of the other areas there. The play area addition would be nice. You start to weigh it because it does cost a little bit more money. They already do have play equipment. Do they need additional equipment? Construction of the tennis court and the basketball court is a major undertaking. $35,000.00 depending on, $25,000.00 to $35,000.00, depending on if we look at a single court, double court or combination thereof of the basketball. Installation of trees. I believe it would be very beneficial in these parks, which I call cornfield parks which were planted in corn 2 to 3 years ago, to go ahead and invest some dollars in 2 to 3 inch caliper trees to be planted in specific areas around the play structure and those types of things so we can get some diversity in our tree cover in a fairly short order and as well provide some shade for those particular areas. I believe that is impo,tant. Then again the park sign for identification. ....." Lash: Just as a thought as far as a basketball court on these things go. When we're putting in the little parking lot and stuff, would it be totally unsafe to just stick a basketball hoop up at the end of the parking lot so when there's no cars there, kids could shoot baskets? Hoffman: We denied that in two other instances. Rice Marsh Lake Park and Curry Farms Park. Lash: You can't do that? Andrews: I would think it's a liability issue. That'd be just really risky. Hoffman: You're advocating or constructing a parking location and then as well saying it's available for play by children which is a conflict of interest. Pemrick: I've had a comment from two homeowners in Chanhassen Hills Park saying they would like to see the next play area addition so for the record I think we should make note of that. -" ,-.... Pa,k and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 17 Andrews: I'm kind of an og,e up he,e I guess. I look at we always come back with these huge, huge budgets that we can't possibly finance so we have to sta,t cutting. To me what would make sense would be to put the ballfield in and do the site g,ade wo,k fo, the tennis cou,t and basketball cou,t. G,ade it out but don't install. And go ahead and put the t,ees in afte, the g,ading's done so those have a chance to get going and you don't have to come back in with heavy equipment to do the g,ading late,. I guess I would feel that the cou,ts themselves would be defe"ed and although the,e's a desi,e the playg,ound equipment, I'm confident with some of these othe, la,ge p,ojects we've got going. Especially Lake Ann. We',e going to be ,eally hu,ting fo, money this yea, to b,ing some of these p,ojects to completion. So I would say that should wait and that would f,ee up some funding fo, othe, p,ojects that we put a high p,io,ity on. Lash: I would ag,ee with that. Totally. I think if we looked at the pa,k sign, the t,ees and a ballfield fo, 1992, playg,ound fo, 1993 and then somewhe,e down the line afte, that the tennis cou,t and basketball court. And,ews: That's what I'm thinking. I guess I'm optimistic that with the MUSA expansion we',e going to see some cashflow changes he,e too hopefully, next yea, in pa,ticula, but I would hope that that's going to c,eate some funding rathe, than mo,e land. That's what we're going to need because we'll have to go back and re-invest in some of these pa,ks that we've had to leave go fo, so long. ~ Lash: Do you think that that sounds ,easonable? Just you, initial reaction as fa, as money fo, next yea,? Hoffman: Yes. Maybe a good point to discuss a little bit fa,ther. What some of the fo,ecasts fo, ou, ,evenues and expenditu,es a,e. I believe we discussed the last meeting, 0, the meeting befo,e that ,evenues a,e they',e above last yea, but they',e still behind ou, anticipated ,evenues. It's not due to single family homes. It's due to the indust,ial comme,cial lag in development which we',e cu"ently seeing. We have such things as the supe,ma,ket and shopping mall coming th,ough, we',e going to see a big boost which we did in some of the yea,s of '88-'89 and '90. Those type of yea,s. So we a,e somewhat behind. We a,e going to see a ,educed budget. We had about $175,000.00 to wo,k with. Initial reactions a,e we',e going to be close, to the somewhe,e just ove, $100,000.00 fo, 1992. Depending on what we take a look at. How we close and again whe,e the economy goes f,om today's date. So we're going to be somewhat mo,e ,est,ictive. Again with the Lake Ann shelte" wit~ all the othe, p,ojects that we,e hanging on the table and we went ahead and initiated those p,ojects...next yea, plan acco,dingly but again we',e still in good shape to continue development of ou, pa,ks. Koubsky: That's my app,oach. Like the Chanhassen Hills Pa,k and the totlot 0, additional play a,eas. I think it's impo,tant to at least give eve,ybody in town something. Eve,ybody has a phase I and othe, lots don't have a phase I and money should be directed to empty pa,kland. Even if it comes to ballfield const,uction 0, even adding, I'd like to see movement ahead on each of the facilities. But I think it's ve,y impo,tant that that pa,k a,ea that doesn't have anything on it should at least move ahead and get something on it. JIll"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 18 ....", Lash: You're going to come back with figures right? Hoffman: Correct. Lash: So then we'll have to chop it some more anyway. Andrews: We had our big wish list. Now we're going to get our small wish list and then we'll go to reality after that. Hoffman: already. This list however compared to last year's is somewhat reduced Last year we started real high. Andrews: But you just talked about a 75% cut in funding. I mean that's really going to cut it down to the bare bones. I also have a concern about our capital fund. I think we've hit into that heavy and I don't want to see anymore deterioration on it. Hoffman: Correct, and we have reserves left in there for Minnewashta parkland and those types of things. Robinson: But I think this is the right process. To start with a real wish list and keep narrowing it down. Andrews: Well you have to to help you prioritize. Okay, let's move on to Chanhassen Pond Park. Kerber Boulevard enhancement. Is that a significant cost project? Hoffman: No, that would include, as you walk along the trailway which is almost a boulevard trailway, to incorporate a couple of picnic tables with a cement slab underneath them for securement so that area can be enjoyed. ....", Andrews: That sounds like perhaps an internal project that's going to just sort of appear magically? Hoffman: Correct. And with the purchase of a couple picnic tables. Andrews: Let's leave that one as is I think. Lash: I wouldn't classify that as a real high priority. Andrews: No. Lash: It's going to cost that much to start with if we have to start chopping. Andrews: City Center Park. Koubsky: I guess I have a comment on here. Being with the playground committee, we did pick out a very nice playground set for that addition. The problem was that was brought up at the last meeting, was a little more funds were used for the development of the area than originally anticipated and what we had ended up for the play equipment was nice but it wasn't nearly the amount we would have liked to have spent on it. I think if there was one area that we needed to add play equipment this might be the ....", Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ July 23, 1991 - Page 19 one. Just from the useage it would get compared with a ne ighborhood lot. It is a school. However it is a park and I think all the kids there are going to almost overuse this equipment. I think it will probably be presented...Todd with the final plan we had approved for the Commission's approval? Hoffman: Correct. Again, I apologize. It was not included on the agenda this evening. I did bring the plan to present during Commission presentations to the Commission. If they'd like me then to follow up and include the entire package for review in administrative packet at another time, I'll go ahead and do that. The time line, it was the commission's wish to go ahead and review that prior to approval but the time line in this project was just unbelieveably crunched and we were going day to day and hour to hour to get this part of the project completed so we could accomplish this part. Calling meetings 3 days in advance and that type of thing to get all these particular portions of the project approved. So I'll have a chance this evening to present the board to you concerning that west area playground. My other comment is I included in the administrative packet for this evening's meeting a news article on the slide 100 feet long connecting different play areas which is a joint project between the City of Chaska and the School District. I just included an asterick near the funding portion, the last paragraph of that showing the funding there. The school was much more favorable in funding that particular project. In fact it's an exact flip flop. They funded about how much we did on this particular project for Chan Elementary and ~. the school district funded the...that location. So it has been the history of development of City Center Park to be about an even SO/50 split between the School District and City. The School District is not able to accomplish that this go around. However, the Commission and Council was happy to go ahead and initiate the project. However, it would be my opinion that we should be looking to the school district to pick up some of this tab in the future as well. Lash: At the last meeting I think I recall you said that you had some cost savings by having staff do certain things. Has that already been spent now? Hoffman: The cost savings? The cost savings were incorporated into there so we could accomplish the project. There were such things as pulling out the line. Painting and now the school's agreed to do that. Reducing the border wood from a redwood edging border which we use on our play structures down to a green treated pine material. Lash: So I think there was something like $15,000.00 or something. Has that now been used by more play equipment? Hoffman: Correct. The total figure for play equipment on the west side is $10,000.00. For the purchase of actual play equipment. The remainder of that went towards land development and those drainage improvements and those type of things. We had to scrape and scrounge for it to come up with that $10,000.00. ,.... Lash: Even with the $15,000.00 savings, you only spent $10,000.00 in equipment? Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 20 ...." Koffman: Well the savings were not potentially savings but cost reductions in the overall project to get that back down. Lash: We don't get much for $10,000.00. Hoffman: We'll go over that this evening. Lash: I work in the same building with the administrators and superintendent and we're like this. But when I read that in that article that just made me sick to think that they gave the Jonathan School $75,000.00 for play equipment and would give us nothing. Hoffman: $2,000.00 was what we ended up with. Lash: Sometime when I see him and he looks like he's in a good mood or something, I'm going to approach him and just ask him what the deal is. Andrews: I hate to be ungracious but I feel that was a real slap. A real major slap. That's sort of like well, we'll give it where we have to but where we don't, well let's see how much we can get from Chanhassen. I could see maybe a $2,000.00, $3,000.00, $4,000.00 difference but that's incredible. It makes me somewhat angry to think that that's, you know I think we have a very desireable project with a lot of benefit. I feel like that just wasn't right. Lash: I'd just like to know where they got the $75,000.00 to do it. I mean I've been at School Board meetings and you go in there and ask for something and there's never any money. I mean it's like everywhere else. There's never any money for anything that you want to get and then they got $75,000.00 for play equipment. --' Hoffman: The money was, in my op1n10n or my impression land locked for that new school project so it was tied into that. The new school funding package. Lash: That was part of the referendum. Do you think it was built into the referendum cost? Hoffman: I don't have any. Andrews: For me personally the play equipment is a higher priority than the hockey improvement at this point. I feel like if we had to defer another year with our hockey rinks and the condition they are and our warming house, the condition it is in, we could do that. I just keep looking down at Lake Ann and I see a huge project there and most of that to me looks like if we don't try to do it all at one time, that we're really not doing the right thing. Lash: Also the warming house improvements, what else needs to be done to that? Hoffman: The warming house is to a point where it's not worth making a major investment but if something comes up on an annual basis that needs some attention, you know a $500.00 item or less. That type of thing. It .....", JIll"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 21 was the new furnace was installed. The shingling of the building this fall. The foundation is beginning to rot up from the bottom and it's a building which will need attention in the not too distant future but we just need to patchwork it now to get by. The hockey rink replacement again is an item which was incorporated into the whole City Center Park improvement project but was taken out of the 1991 improvement package because of funding. The rinks are the only two hockey rinks within the city of Chanhassen. They're the only two hockey rinks that we offer. They're used for practices and pick-up games. They're not used for official games because of the access to the community center and other indoor ice sheets within the area. So it's a difficult position because again they are our only two rinks. Andrews: I'd just like to re-emphasize that to me the Lake Ann Park is the priority. It's our showpiece. It's going to require a huge amount of money to get it going and I guess I feel like if we've got a functional hockey rink and a functional warming house there, let's make it go one more year and try to divert that money to Lake Ann and provide all the necessary additional items that are going to be needed to get that up and running next year and hopefully by doing that, yes we'll have incurred a lot of expenses but perhaps we'll have enhanced the revenue generating ability of Lake Ann too to help pay back some of those expenditures. For what it's worth. Koubsky: When this says hockey rink replacement, was that the realignment ~ of those Todd? Hoffman: No, just the replacement in their current position. The realignment then would incorporate removal of the poles and re-installation and the ,e-wi,ing. Koubsky: Have they got new boards? Hoffman: The hockey rink replacement would include the dismantling of the present boards and either constructing new from scratch or purchasing a package. Lash: So if we don't have any money in there we won't have any hockey rinks at all? Hoffman: No. They'll continue to be maintained in their present and repaired and maintained and used in their present state. Andrews: Is there anybody here that would like to speak against deleting the hockey rink replacement and warming house improvements at this point? Then let's cut that for budgetary purposes. I mean keep the notes handy but let's see where that leads us. Lash: Postpone that for 1993? Andrews: Postpone that for later. Okay, let's skip to He.man Field Park. Oh pardon me. Is there anybody that wanted to speak against additional play equipment for City Center Park. Alright, now we can move on. Herman Field Park would be the next one that has significant activity. ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 22 ..." Lash: Can we back up to Curry Farms? Andrews: Sure, park sign. Lash: Yeah, but did they get something this year? Did we spend any money there this year? Hoffman: $10,000.00 was budgeted in 1991. Play area expansion is just being finished up this week. They're going to be subcutting the trail, the extension of the bituminous walkway within the next week and putting in a ballfield. So the walkway is going to be advantageous since in the spring that area is so wet at times that we're only going to put the aggregate at an even level with the grade there and then apply that bituminous on top of that so when it receives a large amount of rain you should be able to walk the walkway there and make use of the park. Out there today talked to two different neighbors and they're very happy with the activity that's going on there. Glad to see that the trailway was going to go in there. The kids Big Wheels and tykes and bikes and walks around the parkway. Excited about the new play equipment and looking forward to the ballfield as well. Lash: So you feel they'll be content next year? Hoffman: Yes. Andrews: Herman Field. Lash: You had a rough estimate of about $50,000.00 didn't you for this? ....." Hoffman: Herman Field is receiving $50,000.00 in improvements with the access road in 1991. Pre-construction meeting is being held early next week. Initiation of that project was held up due to Wetland Alteration Permit process which we needed to go through. So that $50,000.00 includes the construction of that roadway and the grading of the open area of the park. Restoration of that area and as well blacktopping and asphalting of the roadway and then the parking lot. Then come next spring, it's going to be a road with a parking lot and a barren field so that's where we need to pick up in 1992. Andrews: I would think a ballfield would be a natural with the grade work out there. Do you agree with that Todd? Hoffman: Sure. Andrews: I think we get our most efficient thing for a buck by doing it right at the same time. Lash: Do you think that we could trim it to the play area, picnic tables and ballfield construction for next year and hold off on the trail and boardwalk? Robinson: Yeah. That boardwalk has got to be costly doesn't it? Andrews: I'm not convinced that's a great idea anyway. ...." ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 23 Lash: I think it's a necessity. We talked about it at the last meeting. It's so you can get the trail through the wetland. Hoffman: It's a split issue. It's fairly short but it is expensive material. Same material which the swimming raft is made out of at Lake Ann. It's the best there is in the industry and if you fool around with wood and styrofoam, you replace it in 3 years. It's really a split issue here because the park all along has been spoken of as a natural area to get away. ,To take a walk. That type of thing. The superdeck floating boardwalk and the trail construction were included as alternates in this year's contract. There was not enough money to go ahead and take those into consideration but they're very highly ranked by the neighborhood in the surveys which were taken in that area. So if we went that way, it shys away from what we traditionally think of as initial phases in development of the park. Andrews: What's the nearest ballfield that is available to that neighborhood? Hoffman: Across the highway at Minnetonka Intermediate. Andrews: So quite a ways then really. Hoffman: They're isolated. JIll"" Lash: Maybe what we could do is, either do the trail and the boardwalk or the play area, picnic tables and ballfield construction. Hoffman: The trail construction is, it's really a no cost item. I seriously doubt we'd have to rent any equipment. We have equipment which can handle that. It would just be a matter of staff time to accomplish that. But if you construct the trail and it deadends at the wetland area, you need to purchase the boardwalk to get across. Lash: Could that be an Eagle Scout project? Or not? Hoffman: Again, then we would need to revert back to the wood construction and it would cost us $4,000.00-$5,000.00 in material and we would need to replace it at some point in the future. Andrews: But you're saying the neighbors near there expressed a definite preference for trails rather than a play area? Hoffman: It was a high priority but again, they'd like to see it all done. Lash: Maybe what we could do is, like get input from the residents before we they would rather see in there first. but not both next year. I said either one or the other but actually start anything as to which Tell them we can do one or the other Andrews: It is a unique park in that it could be one of our few wild parks where there is a walking trail and that could present something different to the whole city. I mean most of our parks are the totlot, the ballfield, the tennis courts and the basketball hoops and like you say, it's a ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 24 cornfield 3 years ago and now it's a park. I think Jan maybe has a good idea. We've got x number of dollars. Maybe we get a little bit better input and it's going to be either or. Not both situation. So I guess I feel, why don't we group the first two items together and the last 3 items together and get a figure on those two as a group and see if you can come back to us with that and see what we come up with as an estimate there. --' Hoffman: We'll take a look at that. The play area, if it's a small initial phase, Can end up in like the $8,000.00 range. Ballfield construction is again accomplished by park maintenance staff and includes the purchase of the aggregrate. Purchase of the bases. Purchase of the backstop. So it takes some dollars. It takes a considerable amount of staff time as well. So again, as we look through this we not only have to look at, we're severely maximizing the use of our park maintenance personnel this year in installing equipment and doing park improvement projects as well as park maintenance projects and the phone calls are going to begin to increase as we get closer to the end of the summer and residents are not seeing their particular playground installed and that type of thing. So we need to look at both aspects. Both our available resources and dollars and our available resources in work force as well. Koubsky: As far as a questionnaire approach Todd, last year did you guys do something similar where you had kind of a list of wants and solicited the local public opinion for what they'd like to see? Hoffman: The list is compiled through the knowledge of the Commission and staff from the public comment heard in the past so there's not a general solicitation from the public to go ahead and receive. ~ Andrews: We did that survey though. What was it 3 years ago? 2 years ago? Hoffman: Yes. Andrews: And it's pretty predictable. I mean the basic surve~ is you want everything. Then it's just a matter of well because you can't have everything, what are the things you really want. And it does seem to boil down to the play areas are always high. Then the ball fields. Multiple use ballfields. But I look at Herman Field here again as kind of a unique wild area. Perhaps this might be an opportunity for us as a commission to present an alternative type of park. Hoffman: That's how it initially was presented and then again, the neighbors liked that idea but we don't have a play area. We don't have a ballfield so we went for the mix. Lash: And as far as ballfield, that was basically just an open area where they could play catch. Andrews: We can provide that without doing anything. Lash: Yeah but so then do you think the ballfield construction could be lumped with t~e trail construction more or do you think the other breakdown is better? ....,; JIll"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 25 Hoffman: Again, as Jim was just eluding to, like the Pheasant Hills survey stated, they don't necessarily want formalized ballfield right off the bang so the ballfield construction we could relabel that and just say open field and it would be done in this year's contract. Leave out the $2,000.00 in material that it would take to construct the formalized ballfield. Andrews: Do you recall what the superdeck estimates were? They were fairly high? Hoffman: They were fairly high I believe. I guess in the $8,000.00 range. $6,000.00 to $8,000.00 range. Lash: So that would be comparable to playground equipment? Robinson: I thought it'd be more than that. Pemrick: I did too. I thought we were looking at $30,000.00 or $40,000.00. Robinson: So did I. Hoffman: No. $10,000.00 would be a cap. Andrews: I'm leaning towards the idea of emphasizing the wild aspects of this park as being quite different from most of our other city parks. ~ Having that be the funding priority but I still think it would be a good idea to look at this as an either or basis and maybe get a little more feedback. If there was a strong neighborhood opinion that if we have a choice between a wild trail or a totlot and a ballfield for our kids, we'd rather take our wild kids to the totlot than take a hike in a wild park. Koubsky: I agree. Lash: But maybe the open field would kind of be, it could go with either one if that's not a big cost item. Andrews: And that's going to be done anyway now this year so we'll have a flat area. Lash: Oh, did you say you're going to do that this year? Hoffman: The ballfield area will be constructed, or open field area will be constructed in a level manner and seeded. Robinson: Maybe it'd be helpful Todd if we could see the 1991 items that are either planned or are completed. And maybe we could then also time phase these if we can't do it next year. Instead of just looking at 1992, push it out and say we're going to do this part in 1992 and this part in 1993 and this part of 1994 and kind of make it a long range plan or at least a 3 year plan. Hoffman: The next go around we can go ahead and take a look at the 5 year layout that is incorporated in your park improvement, capital improvement ,..... budget. Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 26 -*' Robinson: I think that would be helpful. Andrews: Let's move on to Lake Ann. I think we've rehashed that one enough. Todd, you made a comment about the sailboats like I guess I'll surprise you and say let's not jump into that too quick. I think the chase boat aspect and the organizational aspect of trying to put on a sailing program is more than you'd want to do all in the first year. Looking at this lengthy list here of items, that's got to be a lot of money. I guess the one comment I have and I don't know what the ordinance is on Lake Ann. If we would be allowed to have a gas powered motor so in the event of a rescue situation, we don't have a dead battery. I guess I look at electric motors are quiet but when they're out juice, they're out of juice. You aren't going to move. At least with a gas powered motor you can make the rescue if you've got to make it. Hoffman: You're correct. I thought on both items, either one is going to have to be removed from the boat and stored securely in the building. We can go ahead and take a look at the particular ordinances on a gas powered boat. Lash: The DNR uses a motor with gas. Hoffman: I don't foresee that there would be a problem with it. Lash: But if it's a real emergency and you have to go into the store room and get the motor and take it out and strap it on the boat, you're going to be dead. ...., Hoffman: Yeah, you'd want to do that each shift. In the morning you would prepare the boat. Either put the trolling motor and battery in or the outboard motor. Andrews: You wouldn't need a very large motor. I mean a 5 horse ought to be plenty. Lash: I thought when we talked about food we kind of had it boiled down to just cold things and snacks and stuff so do we really need to have a microwave? Hoffman: It's included just for discussion. microwaveable hot dog, sandwiches, that type to see that incorporated at a future date if thing. If you want to do the of thing or if you would like demand is there. Tnat type of Andrews: I'd like to see it left. I guess I feel a little fancier for product sales. You're looking at $150.00-$200.00 for a commercial grade microwave. Lash: Yeah but then you've got to start buying the food and if people don't buy the food, then we're using up food that you're buying that nobody's. I just don~t know if there's going to be a demand for it and I don't think we'll know that until we've done this for a little while to see if people come up and say. what do you mean no hotdogs? No hot pretzels. No whatever they want and I wouldn't want to be stuck with a bunch of food ...." Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ July 23, 1991 - Page 27 that isn't going to move because that kind of stuff you can't keep for a long time as opposed to like bagged popcot"n or chips or some of those kind of things last a little bit longer. Koubsky: We kind of discussed just having bagged treats and cold pop. Lash: Yeah. Just kind of simiple to start with and then go with whoever's working there, if they get a handle for what people are requesting. Take it from there. Koubsky: Yeah, I think it's okay to move slow,into the concession aspect in this thing. Lash: And as far as the rental boats, I guess I'd like to keep it to the pretty basic things that the average person knows how to use and not get into some of the things that you mentioned I've never heard of before. Andrews: Do you know what the difference between paddle boats and water trikes are? Hoffman: The paddle boat? Andrews: The paddle boat and the water trikes? Hoffman: Paddle boats, those boats where people sit in there and paddle ~ them. The water trikes are, you take a regular trike. Enlarge it. Put on huge wheels and then the back tires spin. Where you have water trikes and paddle boats, the water trikes go first. Andrews: Yeah, I guess I feel like we're offering or attempting to offer too many selections as far as types of boats. Lash: The water trikes seats one person? Hoffman: Two people. Andrews: You said water trikes go faster than paddle boats? Hoffman: Yes. But then again they appeal to the different groups. The kids can take those water trikes. Right now an elderly person would much rather per fer a paddle boat. The paddle boats are going to go out for a number of reasons. Recreation. A person's going to go out and read a book and cast a line in. Water trikes are for real active type of recreation. Lash: How are you going to control the number using those things? Hoffman: The access dock will be there with the equipment chained to the dock or else brought up in the shore area there which will be incorporated. When they check them out they check out, the people are there at the rental counter. They check out their two life jackets. Whatever they need for their equipment and the boat is unlocked and off they go. A friend swims up to it and jumps on out in the lake, then you have a potential problem. ,...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 28 --" Andrews: I want to make one comment. This has to do with Lake Phalen which is where I've seen their rental operation. From what I can remember, they don't rent canoes and I think there's probably two reasons for that. One is that you do have to have some knowledge of how to paddle a canoe in order to do properly. To return it back to where you need to go. I think a paddle boat or a water trike, I think anybody can master that very quickly. I think the other thing is capsizing and rescues. I would think that canoes just are much more likely to be capsized either accidentally or perhaps on purpose by people looking at a hot day to have some fun and I think that's going to create a lot more demand for us to go out and get the swamped canoe. Drag it back in. Pick them out of the water. It's not that I'm against canoes but I think from a rental standpoint, it could be a bigger headache than they're worth. I think also a lot of people, they do own canoes but very few people would own a water bike or a water trike. They could perhaps have more of a desire to rent something like that. Lash: How about the storage aspect of those things? Hoffman: Storage of these, the building that is currently at Lake Ann, the tin shelter, is beyond it's capacity and Dale Gregory would be proposing a second maintenance building. Pole barn building at Lake Ann in his 1992 budget request. The building which is currently there...you should go ahead and purchase the equipment just to fill out the purpose and the intent of that building as a rental center. Concession center so the equipment is necessary but again, canoes. You're going to want to ask the people if they've ever canoed. If the person taking up the rear has ever steered a canoe or paddled a canoe. Life jackets are going to be required. That type of thing. And again you do lose control of those people. They're on the other side of the lake and they want to take a life jacket off and take a swim. Those types of things. ..." Robinson: I would agree with you Todd. I think we should have a little variety to start with and see what goes. Pemrick: I'd agree with that. Andrews: Should we get some estimates back as is and work from there? Hoffman: Sure. Andrews: The microwave I sort of see where yeah, there's a concern with hotdogs not selling but to be quite honest, I can't imagine a park not being able to move a few dozen hotdogs every day regardless of what the weather conditions are like. And I look at the difference between buying a microwave or not buying a microwave. If we decide not to sell hotdogs it's not a very big factor in the big scheme of things. Hoffman: The refrigerator will be there and the vendor, the food vendor who is chosen will vend all these particular items so you can order respective amounts and increase the oyder or reduce the order by a weekly basis. That type of thing. Robinson: Was some of this covered in the building Todd, like the water and electrical hook-up? -' ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 29 Hoffman: Water and electrical hook-ups of the ballfield concession building were not covered. That would include, this is for the separate building up through the ballfield. We are running water and electrical service right by that building and it makes good sense to go ahead and hook it up. Andrews: There's another opportunity, if we're not selling hotdogs at the pavillion, take them down to the concession stand and believe me they'll sell down there during a ballgame. Even if it means bringing hotdogs in portable coolers. I'm sure we'll get use out of it. Robinson: I think it would help to get some dollars attached to this. Boy, some of these are really expensive and some of them are. Lash: But some of them are just necessities. Andrews: The way I look at this whole budgetary process is, it's going to be Lake Ann and then whatever's left over. How far will it go is kind of the way I look at this. I think with some dollar figures here, will give us a better idea how big of a pile of money are we going to put into Lake Ann. If it's just too disproportionate, we're going to have to cut back there. Spread it around a little bit. Koubsky: I guess I see Lake Ann as important and I wouldn't disagree with that but if we're at that limited of a budget, I would also hate to put all ~ my money into one park. It's a big city. There's a lot of new development. There's a lot of new areas. People don't always recreate down at Lake Ann Park and I think we need to keep into considel-ation the entire city. It's an important project but I hate to start getting pigeon holed and start putting all my money, limited funds into one location where there's other locations that obviously need work. So I'm not saying I'm against any improvements to Lake Ann but I don't feel that Lake Ann is the number one priority and everything is second hand. I think we need to go on it as a systematic method and before we reach decisions, figure out what everybody else needs and where our budget lies.. Lash: I agree with that Dave. Even as far as setting this up for next year. The building is going to be there. The building is going to be nice. There's essentials we have to have. The lifeguard equipment. The first aid equipment. Really personally I don't think any of the other things are that necessary for the very first year. I mean with construction schedules and I know we want to t,y and have it done at the beginning of the season but if you look at histo,y, boy there's a lot of projects that don't get done on time and we pigeon hole all our money to buy the rental things and food things and all that and then it doesn't get going right away, and I'm down across from Lake Ann beach a lot of days during the week and a lot of days there's hardly anybody over at that beach during the week so r kind of hate to sink all of our money into supplying concessions and rental things for the weekends and that's what it's going to boil down to. r think. ~ Hoffman: Again, when we attach some dollar figures you'll be able to get a better handle on it. The things such as the dock for the rental boats, I've tossed around. There's been discussions of the lifeguards, are the Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 30 --' docks which are currently in the swimming area necessary? They're there. Children jump off of, lifeguards guard off of them but in many beaches there's no docks. We could use one of those docks for this rental dock. Andrews: Some cities remove the docks because they don't want them there for people to get caught underneath and not be useable. Hoffman: Correct. Correct, and again we are going to be working with a somewhat reduced budget and I'll be able to bring in a better figure back later on in the fall but we've accomplished and are in the process of accomplishing a tremendous amount of capital improvement in 1991. Those parks which received those improvements are not going to be able to, don't need to see improvements in 1992 so the ratio of what we're going to get done is going to be about the same in 1992. Andrews: Why don't we try to get a lot more detail in particular on the concession area of Lake Ann and the boat items. I guess those are the two items that I look at as, if we had to cut some corners, that's where we could cut it from. Lash: From the first year anyway. Andrews: Yeah. I somewhat agree with Jan that the first year the public knowledge of what's there isn't going to be fully achieved and I don't want to have $15,000.00 worth of boats sitting there that nobody even knows are there. Lash: Well and that will really be, you're liabl~ to, even if we have the money, that will be a good trial year to just get feedback from people. You're going to get calls and people are going to say, well why don't we have hotdogs down here or why don't you have canoes or why don't you have sailboats and you'd maybe get a good feel for what we really should. ...." Hoffman: And why do you have a rental area and not rent anything? Andrews: If that's the worst complaint we have, that's not too bad. Lash: Oh, I didn't even see the page 4. Andrews: The back page, yeah. Can we move on to Lake Susan Park? Lash: Yeah. Aeration system? What is that? Hoffman: To aerate the lake. To preserve the fishery in the winter. The lake freezes out partially or significantly about every third year. With the boat access and the park development, the DNR is beginning to stock walleye and bass in Lake Susan once again and to try to preserve that, an aeration system in Lake Susan had been requested by the public. Any lake within the City of Chanhassen, Lake Susan is the most suitable for an aeration system. Again, there's grant opportunities available for that through the same grant program which the DNR fishing pier out at Lake Ann. was acquired. Through the Corps grant program so it's included because it would be necessary to preserve that fishery in any sense of form. Otherwise they continue to stock it and it gets winter killed, etc.. ...." Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 31 ,..... Pemrick: what's a track ride? Hoffman: Track ride is about an $800.00 item to finish the play area. With the budget that was available for the expansion this year, it could not accommodate that piece. Pemrick: That's turning into a nice play area. We go there quite a bit. Lash: Like a long bar overhead and you get on one side and hang onto the ring and you can slide down. Pemrick: Oh fun. Andrews: A ziploid. Lash: Well we have an archery range. We almost have to get the targets. I put that as a priority. Otherwise that's kind of a waste. Andrews: I don't see a lot there that can be eliminated at this point. What are we looking at pavillion improvements? What were the things we were looking at there? Do you recall? Hoffman: Pavillion improvements include evaluating the condition of the fixtures in the bathrooms and those types of things. They were installed 9 years ago and they're just going to be starting to be used extensively this year so are we going to run into some problems and are they going to need. ,,IfII" Andrews: That's kind of a monitor rather than necessary a definite budget item? We talked too about vandalism and lighting. Have we done anything to change that for this year or for next year? Hoffman: The lighting of the? Andrews: The lighting of the pavillion area. Wasn't that vandalized repeatedly during construction? Hoffman: Yeah, during the construction period when there was lack of activity and a lot of broken glass and that type of thing. There is a ,safety light on the south side of the building and then parking lot lights on the north side. Andrews: Activity in itself should reduce that I would think. Is there anybody that has any specific additions or deletions for Lake Susan? Okay, let's move on. Hoffman: Excuse me Jim. Just one note on the trail link to Chanhassen Hills. The piece of property, outlot E which is necessary to construct that has not been deeded to the City as of yet. That is an important trail link because Chanhassen Hills relies on that to access Lake Susan Community Park. Joe Miller, the developer of Lake Susan Hills West, we could ask them to deed that over and they would probably not have a problem with that. What they're waiting for is once they go ahead and go into that addition of their housing development, then they require to deed it over " Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 32 but not prior to that time. So that is just one question mark on that one item. ....." Andrews: Meadow Green, that seems pretty straight forward. Lash: Do these trees come from the tree farm? Hoffman: Trees will be removed out of the tree farm this fall and placed in the parks. Again, Meadow Green Park is somewhat of an older park but continues to be fairly barren out there in the middle of a maturing neighborhood. The installation of some $400.00, $300.00-$400.00, 2 to 3 inch caliper trees. 2 or 3 or 4 of those in strategic locations would help the appearance and future look and feel of that park location. But then they are going to be augmented fairly strongly this fall in many park locations by the tree farm. Andrews: Let's move on. Minnewashta Heights. Lash: Is this the one the lady was in a few meetings ago? Hoffman: Correct. Pemrick: Those are the improvements? Hoffman: This year we included the installation of the border wood and the pea gravel and then next year looking to some. sort of potential expansion. $4,000.00-$5,000.00-$6,000.00. Andrews: Let's leave that in. I think we've kind of committed ourselves ~. on that one. Minnewashta Park, funding reserve. Hoffman: The fund reserve is currently at $100,000.00. As recent activity shows, $100,000.00 isn't going to get us that far and if we have the capability to increase that reserve, the demand is there. The need is there. I'm not so certain that an extra $50,000.00 is there but we continue looking at it. Andrews: I see this as a bit of a priority partly because of what Terry said from Lundgren that there's going to be a big increase in development on the western, going towards the west. I feel it's important that we do try to hide some funds. Being in a specific reserve or anywhere but just looking at how we can have some money available so when those western parts are really going to need to have some active development. Lash: If we're looking at $100,000.00 budget and we want to put half of it in the reserve for that? We're not going to be able to do anything else. I think it's a priority yeah but I just can't imagine that we can put $50,000.00 into it. Andrews:. Well I agree with that. You can't put half of our eggs into that. Koubsky: We should put something. It might even be $5,000.00 but I think something. -"'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 33 ,... Hoffman: Again, the $50,000.00 in reserve would not necessarily need to be a portion of the general capital improvement program. We can take a look at our overall bank budget at the end of, as we get closer to this and see what type of reserves we have in there. We also have $100,000.00 reserve which is set aside for matching grants so when we have the opportunity to take advantage of a LAWCON grant. Presently we have $200,000.00 in reserve and our present capital improvement budget balance is somewhere in the neighborhood of $550,000.00. That's going to take some stiff hits with all the activity that is going on and it's going to reduce it fairly significantly so I'll bring back some more defined figures for you later on in the year. Andrews: Why don't we look at this as an update item rather than a dollar figure item. North Lotus Lake. That's my area. I don't see any of my neighbors here so I can speak freely. I still feel that we have an adequate play area there now, to be honest. Especially if the swingset, is that going to appear? Hoffman: Correct. ~ Andrews: I think we could be okay there if we needed to be and defer any expansion again. As far as installation of trees, there are some up near the play area and to be honest, I think the rest of the park would be best left open. It gets a tremendous amount of field play. Soccer or football or frisbee or whatever it is. I think we could pretty much leave it as is. I think the only need I've seen lately is parking. That park has become more than just a neighborhood park with Little League games and soccer games and soccer practices and so forth that the parking area near the totlot or whatever. That's typically overflowing and they're parking all up and down the street and Fox Hollow and on the grass which is so I don't know if that's something we'd want to budget but it certainly is an ongoing problem. If that means we have to expand the parking area or perhaps widen Fox Hollow to accommodate off street parking. There are portions of that road that are barely wider than a car so it's. Hoffman: It's interesting to note that problem or that parking takes place there. It's the largest parking lot in a neighborhood park. Andrews: But it's more than a neighborhood park though too. It really does draw in outside activity and it is a very nice park and that's part of the reason why. It's got a very good soccer field or ballfield. Lash: Well games are scheduled there. Andrews: Yeah. It mows in a lot of people and the tennis courts are busy every night. Usually with several groups waiting so I think we can get by without any equipment changes. I think we can get by without the trees to be honest. Lash: How about if we just got a few tree farm? Andrews: It's sort of where would they go? There are some up near the picnic area already that were put in last year, ".. Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 34 Hoffman: The comment I received from some of the residents was something that would potentially class that park up 20-30-40 years from now. We'd do some boulevard tree planting along the road bisecting the park from the tennis court up to pleasant View and to plant that along there so in 20 years the park has some integrity. Some class by having those boulevard trees in that particular location. ...."" Andrews: That could be done. I guess I don't look at that as a big priority to me. You look at the whole neighborhood there is basically a bulldoze it down and stick the houses in and plant trees so yes. If we're going to put in trees, now would be the time so they would be at the right size with the other trees but I look at all along that boulevard there, there are no houses real close at this point yet. Hoffman: Just for the park. Andrews: I guess the way I look at it, if some trees, go ahead and stick them in the something I'd want to designate money to. speaking for myself. staff has time, if you've got ground but I don't see that as I really don't. I'm only Hoffman: The quote I fall back on is, the best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is today. Lash: If we get them from the tree farm are they free? Hoffman: Correct. Lash: It's just city staff time to do it. ....." Hoffman: Until they get so large that our tree mover cannot move them. Andrews: If we've got staff time I'd say do it. Otherwise, I don't see a funding requirement there. As far as the parking area goes, I don't think we're going to address that are we? It's not a crisis but if it's more of a convenient situation on only a rare basis when they've got two soccer practices going at the same time. Hoffman: There are areas much worse off. Rice Marsh Lake and Carver Beach are much worse off. Andrews: pheasant Hills. I anticipate some pretty heavy neighborhood pressure on that park on an ongoing basis. I think we can look at the progression of things. I think grading and surfacing would be a responsible goal for next year. I know I made the comment when the neighborhood group that this isn't the kind of thing that appears over night but it's something if we could make some progress on it next year and then go into the totlot and the ballfield the year after. I think that makes some sense. Lash: That gets pretty expensive though doesn't it? Hoffman: We'll take a look at doing that one. Again it's my statement really on staff time. It's something we can accomplish a great bulk of it """'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 35 ,.... in house with both the park maintenance and street maintenance folks such as we did at North Lotus Lake. That was the grading was completed in house. Otherwise you're looking at the contract for Herman Field is $50,000.00. We're getting asphalting and road work and site preparation so in order to accomplish that big of a grading project we need to rent equipment but that's not nearly as expensive as hiring a contractor. Lash: So even if they couldn't get at it until fall. Hoffman: We just need to keep those residents informed. Take a look at our staff work load for 1992 and make an objective decision on whether or not we could accomplish that in house because we are limited in time and employees and that's one reason we contract out. We can't accomplish everything by ourselves. Andrews: Any other comments on Pheasant Hills? I see nothing for Power Hill and Prairie Knoll. Koubsky: I don't think Power Hill has any development around that does it Todd? ~ Hoffman: Just reaching. That phase has just been approved with Flamingo Hill Road which, or whatever it is goes up in that area so development is occurring. My opinion on Lake Susan Hills West is that we put in a pretty big hunk into Sunset Ridge Park and should try to nuture that one along to get a pretty much established park in that central location and then to look down to future years to pick up Power Hill and Prairie Knoll. It's an unusual situation in that there's a multitude of parks in that particular location and when it's eventually all developed, they're going to have fine facilities. Prairie Knoll is in the opposite side of Powers Blvd. and that neighborhood with the construction of the bridge which will eventually go in this year to, they have easy access to Lake Susan Community Park as well. Lash: So really, ultimately Prairie Knoll isn't going to have anything on it anyway is it? Hoffman: Open field and the master plan calls for an open field, sliding area. That type of thing. A trail connection from Dove Court out to the trail on Powers Blvd. and then a small play structure. Andrews: Let's move on to Rice Marsh. It was rennovation replacement work. Was that what that was? Hoffman: Rice Marsh Lake, play area expansion. Removal of the swingset and that type of thing. They've received numerous requests on a consistent basis since we took that action to remove that equipment and install a hard surface basketball court. To go ahead and see some additional play equipment put back in there. Lash: That really does need it. As long as we're having scheduled games over there, there's got to be something. ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 36 Andrews: I agree. That's one that needs some help. There's not a lot ~ other accessible sites ,near there. Hoffman: It not only serves the Estates now but also Hidden Valley which is just as large as the Estates development right next door. Robinson: Where is Chan Estate Mini-Park? That's up by DataServ then? Hoffman: Correct. Robinson: I see. I got the two mixed up. Hoffman: Just past McDonald's on the right hand side. It's a little known park but we definitely need to bring it into our system. We own it. Lash: Where's that? Hoffman: There's a swingset there and a sandbox currently. Ruegemer: West of DataServ. Hoffman: If you drive by McDonald's on Lake Drive East going towards DataServ. You get a block past McDonald's. It's off to the right. There's large trees, arborvitaes all the way around it so it's hidden from view but if you get into it, it's a beautiful large expanse. There's a double swingset currently there and-a grill and picnic tables in the one corner so employees of DataServ can come over there on the lunch hour and sit in that area would be nice and then eventually expansion of play equipment or something like that. ~. Lash: How long has that been there? Hoffman: A number of years. Andrews: Didn't know we had it. South Lotus. Curbing access road. Robinson: Where is the access road into that? Hoffman: This is the boat access. Andrews: Okay,we talked about the problem with boats getting off into the grass and talked about widening the pull up ramp out of the water too. Robinson: That's been done. Hoffman: That was widened and a portion of curb was put in. Not only does it look very nice but it also inhibits the car pulling off the side of the road. So if you get a chance, when you drive down there, take a look at it. The curbing would be, it'd be real advantageous to complete that. If it's not a high visibility project, but it's something we can potentially take a look at. Andrews: That's sort of a preventative maintenance too. If you put the curbing in, you cut down the erosion which would really lead to big money ...", Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 37 ill""" if that ever got away from us so that perhaps could be another one of those mystical staff projects again. Koubsky: Is that bituminous or concrete? Hoffman: Concrete. Contracted with a local contractor. Andrews: That would be basically the finishing touch for that part of the project then? Hoffman: Correct. Take a look at if the project is, basically the improvement project is basically complete. We will be pulling in through the street department one last step in that the grade of the hill just as you go down on the right hand side of the access road is so severe from the initial development that you cannot mow it. It has to grow up in weeds and be trimmed down with a weed...that type of thing so they have excess fill and they'll be dropping that in and grading that area out and restoring it so that will be the final phase of this year's improvement project there. Robinson: No tennis courts in there. Andrews: Next is park rule signs. We've already talked about that, was that last meeting we talked about the rules? Koubsky: You missed one there. ~. Andrews: Oh, Sunset Ridge Park. Excuse me. Koubsky: That's mine. That's a big area over there. I don't know if any of you have been there but really that's the only park that would service Powers. You know crossing Powers Drive is a lot like crossing Lake Lucy. I guess there are some things scheduled on that's been real slow because of the weather and the schedule. There was a totlot and volleyball this year? Hoffman: Volleyball, finish grading, seeding and construction of the ball field. Koubsky: And the ballfield this year? Hoffman: Correct. Koubsky: So that will be a big improvement. I guess I'd put, well I don't know if we can afford it next year but I guess I'd keep my eye just when we can. I am a hockey rink fan and we only have the two. I'd like to see a hockey rink go in there when we can afford it and then another one...to provide the City with another sport. Currently they have to go elsewhere for it. Hoffman: We do need to go ahead and wait for the development of the access road which comes in off of the other side of McGlynn Road. Currently we couldn't access it for plowing or flooding, that type of thing where you'd need to drive.down those little trails which we would break rapidly with a water truck. ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 38 Lash: So how much has been done so far? ....." Hoffman: The grading at this point. It's a slow process. You have many backyards which abut the park and some of those folks have sodded all the way to their lot lines. Some have sodded a little past. Some have not sodded up to it so they've needed to locate all of the lot corners and the play areas prior to grading that so they're in the grading process right now. They will be finished grading it. Seeding and then when they're out there grading they'll subcut for the ballfield. Get the aggregate in there and subcut for the volleyball. Install the sand. Prior to that, finish grading and seeding...install the play structure. It's going to be similar to the situation which we had at Curry Farms where that play structure went in and it was a barren seeded field but the play structure will be in fairly close proximity to the asphalt trail so residents will be able to walk down the asphalt trail. Traverse the next 50-75 feet a6ross the seeded, barren ground. Hop into the play area and be able to make use of it this fall and then next year when that grass is growing. Lash: So that's all been ordered? Hoffman: Correct. Play area's he~e. The backstop is here. The reason it is not slated in 1992 proposed improvements. We've really been on an every other year basis for these new park locations. Received $19,000.00 worth of funding this year. Fairly large amount. Koubsky: I think there's one thing they would need is probably trees because that's a soybean field. I think with the playground facility and the ballfield, that can probably get into 1992 but it is barren. There's no shade. There's nothing so if we could. ~ Hoffman: I do concur with Dave however in that that's a large area and it's getting bigger quickly. When you drive by you say boy, 2 1/2 years ago...getting larger by the day. Koubsky: Yeah, Joe Miller seems to be the preferred builder that I've seen in the area. Hoffman: And again, we're going to go ahead and offer the playground totlot program there next year. It was slated for this year but with no equipment and not even any sense of it being a park, we moved it over to the community park at Lake Susan. Lash: So you could throw some tree farm trees over there too? Hoffman: Correct. Andrews: Okay, park rule signs. 50 signs provides us with, it's more than 1 per park I assume. Is that some extras? Hoffman: About 36 locations for signs which include every park as well as parks that have dual access points and some additional signs. Andrews: We're talking about metal signs for these? ...""" Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 39 ,..... Hoffman: The poly plate. It will be a relfectorized sign but poly plat material which is indestructible basically. You can't bend it. You can't cut it. Can hardly mar it. It's a wonderful material and most parks are usi ng it. Andrews: Trails, aggregate for the south railroad trail. Do you have any idea what we're looking at for dollars at that? Real ballpark on that? Hoffman: I can't even venture a guess at this time. We need to take a look at volumes and that type of thing. Aggregate which was purchased, it's cheap but it's going to be immense. Andrews: On a tight budget I look at this as a large project that's not going to benefit a lot of people. To start with at least. Pemrick: I think we should find out too when the two that we connect with, Eden Prairie and is it Victoria or Chaska? Hoffman: Chaska. Pemrick: When are they going to have their's completed? ",- Hoffman: They want to know the same of us. Eden Prairie is going to move forward I believe in 1992. They're taking a lot of heat as well from the residents and the horse constituents and those types of people would like to see some activity. Their basic opinion which is very true, you have a good opportunity to spend some dollars and get a pretty big investment in value. Whereas if you had to start from scratch, you'd never be able to accomplish it. Robinson: But is it useable without the aggregate on it? Hoffman: The ballast which is on there, I wouldn't want to walk on it. Lash: There's real big rocks. The horses couldn't walk on it. Hoffman: 8 to 10 inches of railroad ballast. Robinson: Then I guess I would agree. For what we're getting there. Lash: But wouldn't this come out of our trail fund budget? Hoffman: Park acquisition and development really should be labeled park acquisition and development and trail development. Pemrick: I'd like to see that proceed. There's a real demand for that, from what I've heard from different people and if we have the added value of connecting with Eden Prairie and Chaska, that'd be a wonderful trail. Hoffman: .Chaska i; questionable right now. The length which the Henn~nl.n County Rall Authorlty has purchased . ~~ the big loop going down into Ch k goes Just across TH 212 where you take Just beyond that ends in Chanha::e~ :~~ ~~enkth7re:s the railroad overpass. is still unclear what they're doing with .~s alfls hJUS~ beyo~d. So Chaska l. t ey re gOlng to acquire .;/1"'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 40 an easement to use it to bring it down into Chaska... They're a larger ~ question mark than Eden Prairie. Andrews: Let's try to get a ballpark on that one and see what...come back a third time around and see what... COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATION. Lash: I'm just going to complain again. The dock at Greenwood shores is way out. It's over my head. It was today. I couldn't, before I dragged the garbage cans in. I can't they're out so deep now. So I don't know what we can do about it but. It could end up being a liability if somebody's swimming along and you smack into the post out in the water because you have no idea it's out there. Hoffman: The dock. Pemrick: It's under water? Lash: Yes. Hoffman: If it's the same individuals that have done it in the past, in talking to the resident that called and informed me that he had talked to those individuals parents and the problem had subsided for a while. It's back so we'll take some measures with Public Safety in calling those folks and sitting down and having some conversations. Lash: r mean you don't know for sure who's doing it. ...,., Hoffman: No, you don't. Lash: We know there was a. Hoffman: We just need to make some inquiries because they've gone ahead, the residents in the neighborhood have pulled that dock out of there a number of times. Staff has pulled it out of there at least 3 times and staked the thing down and paddlelocked it to the shore and they must be pulling the pole or cutting the chain or something. Lash: Somebody suggested that if we were to put the chain through the wheels, then the wheels wouldn't be able to go. Hoffman: They'd have to lift it. Lash: Yeah, and who would do that. So maybe that would be an option too. r mean you hate to have to take it out just because there's a couple of littlQ Ci~~PS out there who think it's fun to take it out. ADMINISTRATIVE SECTION. Andrews: briefly. We talked briefly about the slide already haven't we Todd? Very ..",., Pa,k and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 41 "",...., Hoffman: Co"ect and this was just some info,mation to let you know what's going on down the,e at the n~w school. I'm following up on some of the p,essu,e that M,. Lambe,t is ,eceiving in Eden P,ai,ie. They copied us on thei, lette, to thei, di,ecto,. And,ews: I guess this a comment on this slide. This kind of bothe,s me still. I think and I'm su,e Todd you p,obably have al,eady done some of this but I think a discreet comment about what we feel is a quality project he,e in our a,ea might be app,op,iate. I don't think we need to say it's not fai, 0, it isn't right but I do think we have a ve,y worthwhile p,oject he,e in City Cente,. Pe,haps with just a comment 0, two perhaps we could shake loose some more dolla,s and some additional interest on the School Boa,d. Lash: You know another thought on that is, now that Kathleen Macy has gone f,om Chan to be Director of Administ,ato, Se,vices, we may have an ally there. Andrews: Any other items that need to be discussed? ,.... Hoffman: Just a b,ief staff p,esentation on the City Center Pa,k west playg,ound configuration... The school gymnasium is in this area. The p,esent swingset is right here as you walk out from the back door... Then the,e's the ove,head monkey ba,s ove, here. That's going to be reincorpo,ated... P,oposals which were thought... Phase 1 would be this piece ,ight down in the south. Phase 2 is called out in this configuration and Phase 3. As you can see, Phase 1 is small but potential for Phase 2 and phase 3 are very exciting because the next time you bring in a phase, you start out with this small little corner but then Phase 2 inco,porates the rest of the enti,e a,ea...no,th and south. Phase 1 is $10,000.00. The entire p,oject is app,oximately $50,000.00 in todays dollars. Being phase 2 and Phase 3 being about $20,000.00 worth of equipment. Pem,ick: Combined? Koubsky: Each. Hoffman: $50,000.00 total... Lash: Boy it'd be nice if we could get the District to give us $10,000.00. Koubsky: Go halves. Hoffman: Again, I don't want to be blunt. I don't feel real...financial contributions. The APT committed $8,000.00...school dist,ict as a last ditch effo,t. I called Kathleen at home and said... But again, eve,ything will be there. All you have to do is buy $20,000.00 wo,th of equipment and then... The bo,de, will be there. The pea rock will be the,e...so it's not going to be bo,ing on this site...other pieces of play equipment that are currently the,e. The contract was just awarded last night for the handicapped equipment and that incorpo,ated all th,ee phases. So that's a huge addition on the no,th side with the tennis courts being refurbished this yea,... .'*"' Park and Rec Commission Meeting July 23, 1991 - Page 42 Koubsky: And in doing that, we did have other options to go with that. We ~. may have gotten a few more items on there but they weren't nearly as exciting. They're all the 24, 40 inch thing. They didn't have any 72 inch slides or anything big that we thought was needed at the school. We'd just like to stress that Phase 2 is going to be fairly important for the amount of kids that are going to be using this. Whether the school participates or not. This is probably going to be the most used piece of equipment in the city. Lash: Did you say that the old swings are staying in? Koubsky: Yes. You can see Jan in the corner there's a little better plan map. In the red corner of the print. Lash: What's the kind of triangle looking. Hoffman: ...relocated slides, swings, tether ball, four square and basketball . Lash: Just those things alone because that's where the big kids go for recess. 4th and 5th graders go out there so just the tether ball and the basketball and stuff is going to be real popular. Hoffman: ...four decks and horizontal bars and two slides and two 7 inch decks over vertical ladders. Lash: Well I'd certainly be in favor for next year if we're going to allocate money and at least get Phase 2. -' Andrews: I guess I feel like no matter how futile, it never hurts to try the partners. 50/50 or match or whatever you want to call it. Just to try to shake loose every dollar we can from them and I'm sure they'll try to do the same thing with us. It's a bit of brinkmanship here. Who's going to fight first? But I agree. I'm glad the approach that was taken was, I'd rather do it a little bit smaller and do it right rather than just spread it out and not do it right. Even if we have to spread it out for 2 or 3 years I think it will be well worth the initial posterity. Lash: Thanks for taking that out and Larry. Andrews: Any other items? Lash moved, Koubsky seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9=50 p.m.. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Recreation Coordinator Prepared by Nann Opheim ...."