PRC 1991 08 27
,...
CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
AUGUST 27, 1991
Chairman Schroers called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m..
MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash. Dave Koubsky. Larry Schroers. Curt Robinson.
Wendy pemrick. Jim Andrews and Dawne Erhart
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman. Park and Rec Coordinator; and Jerry Ruegemer.
Recreation Supervisor
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Robinson moved. Lash seconded to approve the Minutes
of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated July 23. 1991 as
amended by Jan Lash on page 42 to clarify a statement to read. "Thank. for
taking that on.". All voted in favor and the motion carried.
SHADOWMERE SUBDIVISION.
Public Present:
Name
Address
Don Mehl
Mary Kay Schmitt
490 Bighorn Drive
521 Shadowmere
Hoffman: This item was brough to the Commission at the July 21. 1991 Park
and Recreation Commission meeting. At that time the commission directed
~ staff to get the history of this development. Mrs. Schmitt's inquiry. Mary
Kay Schmitt is in the audience this evening. relates to the possibility of
acquiring Lot 11. Shadowmere for park purposes. Development Contract for
Shadowmere was executed in September of 1987. The reason at that time for
not acquiring parkland which remains valid today is that Shadowmere lies
within the service areas of Carver Beach Park. Chanhassen Pond Park and
Meadow Green Park. One of the larger questions that evening was in regard
to the present situation surrounding Lot 11. In inquiring about that I
contacted Mr. Jim Fenning, the developer of the subdivision. Mr. Fenning
stated he originally sold the lot for $90.000.00. The party purchasing the
lot from Mr. Fenning then sold it to a third party who is not in litigation
with the seller concerning that sell of property. As stated in Mrs.
Schmitt's letter, the City does maintain a large drainage easement over the
lots. Over part of Lot 11 for the purposes of retaining and filtering
runoff prior to it's discharge into Lotus Lake as noted on your map which
you have. The City does not own this property however. Again. it is
recommended that the City not pursue acquisition of Lot 11. Shadowmere for
park purposes.
Schroers: Okay. thanks Todd. Is there anyone in the audience tonight who
would like to address the Commission in regards to staff's proposal?
Mary Kay Schmitt: I don't know if this is premature or what but because
the lot is going through litigation. someone had mentioned August 14th so I
don't know the results on it but it was said to be unbuildable. As a
service area. Shadowmere is a development that seems to have had some great
ideas. It looked good a few years ago and somehow it's turned into
somewhat of a bad dream in some respects because of the, I guess the
recession and bigger houses and trying to have an executive area coming off
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Park and Ree Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 2
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of a different area. But being a homeowner in the area and living there
over 2 years I have seen homes with the builders thinking they were going
to sell. Being taken over by the banks and finally sold so with great
decrease in value. There are homes, there are three homes on the lake and
one of the other people here, Don Mehl's is a landowner on the lake and he
might want to say something after me. Todd had written a nice response and
everything. The questions I have I guess I'll bring them up and see what
you can do to help me out. On the service area part, I guess I can see
that the Carver Beach Park is accessible through, there's a very poor
pathway that needs to be developed that I didn't even know about. I drove
to it on occasion and canoed to it. But I guess I'm looking at a different
perspective. I'm like taking a pro tractor and putting the point down and
making a circle of a half mile. From Shadowmere it doesn't include the
Chanhassen Pond Park or the other, Meadow Green Park and the Carver Beach
Park is just on the edge then. I mean that's my perspective of looking at
the same thing. Everybody looks at things differently. So that's a
question. I don't know if it's valid or not. It's the way I look at
things versus the way other people look at things. So maybe you can
address that. It is unfortunately because of these 'great ideas with the
development and the developer actually not doing, the first developer not
doing much of a job and really kind of with recession too but there's only
5 dwellings occupied that are not on the lake. in that development. There's
27 lots. I know Todd had also mentioned that each lot could have a
swingset or whatever. I think we're still thinking of this park as not,
well maybe a recreation park but maybe more of just an area that has some
benches. Nothing more than that and I have pictures of the lot and if you
want to pass them around. Also, he has some pictures too. There is, I
don't know who owns the drainage area. I was told the City was by the ~
person that I purchased the house from. He said the City will take care of
that and do a good job. At one point he was trying to sell us that lot and
that's what the selling point was so maybe you can inform me on who, if the
City does take care of it, what's happened to it. It's kind of like maybe
something lose in the shuffle but that's why I'm here because I do pay
taxes and I like Lotus Lake. I like where I live but I'd like to see some
things as a taxpayer and a resident that I feel could happen. So that's
why I'm here.
Schroers: Before you leave, could I ask you to state your name and address
for the record?
Mary Kay Schmitt: Oh okay. Mary Kay Schmitt and it's 521 Shadowmere.
There's no road. It's on the cul-de-sac.
Schroers: Okay, Mary what we'll do is we will hear everyone's concerns and
then we'll address the concerns that you've raised after everyone's
finished.
Mary Kay Schmitt: Okay. Yes, I'm done.
Schroers: Thanks a lot.
Don Mehl: I'm Don Mehl and I live at 490 Bighorn. Our lot is immediately
adjacent to the lot we're talking about and I feel we have a lot of concern
as to what's happening over there. Right now there is tremendous erosion
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 3
problems. The water level is very close to the surface. Every time it
rains you get ankle keep in mud if you walk through there. There's about
600 square feet of my backyard that I haven't developed yet because it
would just take too much fill to bring it up to something that could be
developed and I've been waiting to see what's going to happen. Whether or
not the lot will be built on or is going to be a park.
schroers: Sir, is the erosion you're talking about, now is that on Lot 11
or is that on your" property?
Don Mehl: No, it's on Lot 11. There's an entrance, kind of a driveway
that somebody brought a Cat in and excavated it down so that you could
actually drive a vehicle down there. Since that was done, it became
eroding very badly and I've got some pictures here also. It started to
encroach on my yard so I took some timbers and built a little bit of a
retaining wall along the lot line there just to keep my yard intact. And
we took some of the excess dirt that we had and filled in the gullies that
you see on the pictures so right now to day it doesn't look like those but
it will with a few more rains.
Lash: Could I ask you one more question just in regards to it?
Don Mehl: Yes.
Lash: On the map 11, it runs across the top of your?
"'"
Don Mehl: Right. It's sort of an L shape.
Lash: Okay, so it includes the other jog that goes all the way down to the
lake?
Don Mehl: Right. It's actually two lines there that are adjacent to my
property. There's about 165 feet on one side and about 130 feet on the
other side.
Lash: So is the question that's in Court now that the whole part of it is
unbuildable or just the L part that goes down?
Don Mehl: Well the portion of the L nearest to the street has this big
drainage pit from the storm sewer and that's another problem. That has,
you wouldn't believe what's been there. I mean people have dumped rocks.
They've dumped broken cement in there. I've seen cement trucks back up and
wash out their big units and chutes into that pit. I assume it's getting
washed into the lake. I don't know. It's just overgrown with weeds and
all kinds of erosion. The pit is getting wider of course because the
erosion is eating away at the sides.
Schroers: But that developer originally sold that lot to a private party
for the purpose of building a home there?
Don Mehl: I assume he's trying to, yeah. It's in Court right now I guess.
But I have some concerns as to what is going to be done with that.
I personally would support a park back there as opposed to leaving it you
,.... know. I don't think it's buildable because of the ground conditions and
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 4
-'"
actually the location isn't great. But to have a park back there we
naturally have some concerns. How's it going to be constructed into a
park? There would have to be a lot of fill brought in. We'd like to see
some landscaping and see it done right. Then who maintains it. What kind
of hours are put on it. We don't feel like we should have to chase down
beer cans and McDonald's wrappers and cigarette butts that will find their
way in our yard you know. Our bedroom, master bedroom goes off the back
and it's about 35 feet from the.lot line so noise would be a problem. Those
things have to be addressed but we would support a park in that area. Any
questions at all?
Pemrick: Have you had any feedback on what a going price would be? At one
time it sold for $90,000.00. Is that still?
Don Mehl: I have no feel for that at all. I just live next door.
Schroers: Okay, thank you very much sir.
Mary Kay Schmitt: I forgot to add. This is from...house next door...
schroers: I have one other question of either one of you. Did the
developer at any point in time indicate that there was going to be a park
in that area provided with a portion of the development?
Don Mehl: Not to me. In fact they tried to sell me that lot. It did have
potential assuming it was buildable. It had potential to be a nice lot. It
would take a lot of maintenance and...we chose the one next door.
...",
Schroers: Okay, I guess we can open it up for discussion among the
commission members now. Is there anyone who would like to start with any
particular thoughts on this?
Andrews: I'll be brave. I'll go first. I sense more of a request here to
correct the erosion and the shabbiness of this property than I do a real
request here for a park. That's kind of what I'm hearing a bit if you want
an eyesore fixed and if a park will fix an eyesore, then we're in favor of
a park. But if some other way would fix this eysore, that would be okay
too. That's what I'm hearing. The other thing I have to comment back to
you would be, as a commission and as a part of the city we obviously have
funding constraints and believe me they're quite acute and there are many
areas in town that have no park. No useable park within their half mile
distance so we have that to weigh as well. I guess being that you're
within a fairly reasonable distance of 3 existing parks and the cost and
the apparent inferior nature of this property, I don't think I could
recommend that we acquire that property.
Schroers: Jan, do you have anything?
Lash: My initial feeling is that I think it seems like it's kind of a long
distance for children in your area to get to a park, personally. If I
lived there I think I would be feeling the same as you. And there are
some barriers to get to them. I think as far as Meadow Green they have to
cross Kerber and I don't think any of them are really very easy for kids to
get to. The problem that we have is that we just don't have the funding to
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 5
spend $90,000.00 or maybe even more than that. Whoever has it. I don't
know what they would want for it. We just do not have that kind of money
to buy one lot for a neighborhood park for one small neighborhood.
Schroers: We have a total budget for 1992 of $150,000.00. So if we were
to acquire that one parcel for $90,000.00, we wouldn't even be able to
justify that because we wouldn't be able to operate the rest of the parks
in the city.
Lash: Now if something were to happen where out of this court case where
the person who has it, wants to just give it to us, that'd be great. We'd
be willing to take it and even then who knows when we'd have the money to
do anything with it but it's got lakeshore. I see that it could be a
potential of a nice spot and if we ever have an opportunity for lakeshore,
I think we should jump on it if we can. Unfortunately we just do not have
the money and I feel bad that we're in that situation but that's just the
situation that we're in and there's really nothing that we can do about it.
I certainly would be in favor of if there would be a way of us getting it
donated, that we would jump on that or even if we could get it at a very
reasonable price. If it's an unbuildable lot, I don't know what they're
going to do with it anyway so we'll have to wait and see.
Don Mehl: Is there someway they can be forced to at least clean up the
front half of it so it's not an eyesore? It's really bad.
,...
Lash: I think there is ordinances. It really doesn't fall under the Park
and Rec jurisdiction to do that but the City does have ordinances for
people to maintain vacant lots.
Schroers: I think what you would have to do would be to file an individual
complaint and file the complaint with the city and pursue it that way.
Hoffman: I'll go ahead and pick that up for the property owners out there
and be in contact with engineering and public works department. Get those
people in contact with Mr. Mehl and Mrs. Schmitt to follow up on that
condition because we really don't want to confuse the other issue of a lot
which is in disarray with the issue of whether or not it should be a park.
Just so we keep those separate.
Andrews: I just ~anted to make one comment. I was quite alarmed to hear
the comment made about the cement trucks being cleaned and pollution being
put into this holding pond which is really the holding pond prior to
discharging into Lotus Lake. I think that more than likely will be a
blatant violation of what those people ought to be doing. So appreciate
you telling us that.
Don Mehl: You'll find a lot of stuff in that pit.
Lash: Is it people just dumping fill?
Mary Kay Schmitt: It's more like builders.
Don Mehl: Yeah, it's builders.
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Park andRec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 6
....,.#
Lash: Do you know who?
Mary Kay Schmitt: Just show up there.
Don Mehl: I don't know who the cement truck company but I've seen it
twice.
Schroers: I'm sure that information can be found out.
Koubsky: Is the builder, either Todd or Don, had any comment or input on
his intentions other than he sold this property so I'm assuming he's really
not making any comment at this time.
Hoffman: No, the property is certainly out of the city's hands. It's a
privately held piece of property and obviously in a bit of confusion right
now. It could be a buildable lot. It's going to take some money to create
a buildable lot and that I believe is where the problem comes in. In the
litigation the driveway would go down along side of that holding pond.
Retention pond and then the house would be set somewhat facing the lake but
the soils and the grade in that area is going to take some work to create a
buildable location.
Koubsky: Is the current owner local?
Hoffman: I do not know.
Lash: Do you even know if the condition of it would even be conducive if
we had the opportunity of acquiring it somehow or another. would we even
want it?
......"
Hoffman: It's not conducive for very much. No, it's very limited.
Schroers: Probably for passive use but not active.
Hoffman: Passive use and the pricetag and the subsequent cost to develop
that piece of property would be pretty unsurmountable for the use that we
would receive.
Schroers: Okay, Dawne or Wendy any comments? Curt?
Robinson: You've pretty much covered it. I was on the Park and Rec
Commission I see in 1987 when we said we would take fees instead of
parkland and I think that still holds true today. I think that's still
valid.
Schroers: I guess that I feel pretty good speaking for everyone in regards
to, we would like to acquire every parcel that we possibly could that would
make a good active or passive use park provided that it was economically
feasible and reasonable. But you've heard several times our budget
situation just really makes that impossible. It would be nice if everyone
had a park that was easily accessible and you didn't have to cross major
roads to get to it but that's something that very few people have that
luxury. I think in regards to the erosion problem, being that the parcel
or the negotiation over the parcel is in court, I'm sure that's why nothing
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 7
'"
is being done with the erosion. No one actually knows probably who's goign
to end up with the responsibility or who the owner is if it's in
litigation. So I'm sure at the time that they decide to develop it, that
that certainly would be corrected and that the lot and the structure on it
would have to be up to Code. So I think that in time that problem will
probably work itself out. I wish we could be a little bit more positive
about that particular parcel for a park but I just don't see that it's
reasonable to pursue at this point.
Mary Kay Schmitt: What is a reasonable amount of money for a lakeshore lot
for the park...to buy?
Schroers: I think that that's a pretty difficult question. There's a lot
of factors to come into play. First of all we have to really determine
that there is a use and what kind of use and activity we are going to have
in the park and we have different types of park. We have a city park like
Lake Ann that draws from the entire city and we have the neighborhood parks
which are generally used just by the neighborhood. In this instance if we
were to have what we would term a passive use park. If we would say that
this site isn't suitable for ballfields and a lot of activity, if we were
just going to clear an area and have a little picnic like area down by the
beach and a few tables or benches or something like that, the amount of
dollars that it would cost to purchase the property and develop that in
relation to the amount of use that it's likely to get and the benefit to
the entire community was actually paying for it because everyone in all
,-. parts of town could be paying for that property, it'd be hard to swing it.
I wouldn't even put a dollar figure on it myself but you know, reasonably
speaking you're not going to get that for it. If it's already sold for
$90,000.00, you're not going to get it for much less than that and it would
be very hard to justify that kind of expenditure. There are other
developments allover town that say here is, we have our parcel already
here. When are you going to put some playground equipment in it and if we
can't equip the existing property that we have so we can get use out of it,
we'd be looking pretty foolish to spend that kind of money on another piece
of property that we wouldn't be getting utilized that much. Any other
comments or input?
Andrews: Do you need a motion here?
Hoffman: Yeah, I need a motion.
Andrews: I don't think anybody wants to make the motion but I will move
that we accept staff recommendation and do not proceed with any acquisition
at this time.
Erhart: I'll second it.
Andrews moved. Erhart seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend that the City not pursue acquisition of Lot 11, Shadowmere for
park purposes. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Andrews: Todd, you're going to look into the erosion problem?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 8
....",
Hoffman: Either that or I'll talk to the engineering department and have
somebody contact yoU both by phone to update you on the situation with the
holding pond and the condition of the lot.
Mary Kay schmitt: So if we see anything now that is wrong, should we
report it?
Hoffman: Give us a call.
Pemrick: Could there be some no dumping signs posted?
Mary Kay Schmitt: That would be nice.
pemrick: Would you be in favor of something like that?
Schroers: I don't think we can sign private property though.
Hoffman: No. If you see a builder dumping that type of trash, call the
8uilding Department, Public Safety and ask for the 8uilding Inspector.
Something to do with the condition of the erosion or the holding pond would
be the engineering department so we'll get back to you on those issues.
Schroers: Thanks very much for coming in and sharing your information with
us.
Lash: Don't forget your pictures.
DISCUSS POTENTIAL OF AERATING LAKE SUSAN.
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Public Present:
Name
Address
David Zappetillo
Jerry Johnson
Al & Mary Klingelhutz
Gene & Tylor Klein
DNR Fisheries
DNR Fisheries
8600 Great Plains Blvd.
8412 Great Plains Blvd.
Hoffman: Lake Susan, as it stands in Chanhassen is a 93 acre lake with a
maximum depth of 17 feet as shown on that overhead. Department of Natural
Resources management classification of the lake really is a regular winter
kill. Records of the past 20 years show that partial winter kills have
occurred in '74, '75. '76, '77. '78. '79, '85, '86, '88, '89 and '90. The
ecological classification of the lake is centrarchid- which means fish of
the sunfish family which are the predominant species present in the lake.
Meaning sunfish, crappie. bass. Northern pike are also present and a
substantial population of bullhead and carp. The frequent winter kill
associated with Lake Susan have prompted many informal discussions in the
past concerning the possibility of stocking and providing an aeration
system for the lake. Historically the circumstance which prevented moving
forward in this direction was the lack of the public access. However, with
the installation of the access now eminent, the DNR will provide lake
manag~ment which would include scheduled stocking. In fact the DNR has
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 9
provided initial stocking of bass and walleye fry which are very small fish
stocked shortly after hatching in the fall of 1990. To provide the
knowledge and experience needed to guide this discussion this evening,
I invited Mr. Dave Zappetillo, Metro West Area Fisheries Supervisor and
Jerry Johnson, Regional Project Coordinator for the DNR. They are here
this evening and will discuss with you very shortly some of their ideas and
experience in this area. I have asked Dave and Jerry to discuss the
various type of aeration systems available and to make a recommendation as
to the system which they feel would best suit Lake Susan. Again, there are
some concerns which the general public has in regards to the aeration
system. If we move forward in that direction, we have to address those
sufficiently and if the Commission wishes to pursue this activity, it would
be recommended that a public meeting be scheduled to gain input on the
proposed project and then pending a favorable outcome of this meeting, make
a recommendation to apply for a CORE Grant with the City Council. So with
that I'd like to invite both Dave and Jerry to come on up. You can go
ahead and have a seat there. Larry, I think we'll let either Dave and/or
Jerry both just give you some brief overview comments on their position
with the DNR. Their experience in this area and then we'll open up for
public comment. We do have some people here from the Lake Susan area and
then take some comment from commissioners.
Dave Zappetillo: I'm Dave Zappetillo, West Metro Area Supervisor. That
encompasses Hennepin, Scott and Carver Counties. I'm basically responsible
for the management of the lakes in those areas. Lake Susan not only was
~ stocked with walleye fry and bass in 1990 but it was also stocked this past
spring with an additional stocking of walleye fry. I was invited by Todd
to come here and speak to you regarding the aeration. Aeration will solve,
it's been our experience it will solve the problem of the periodic winter
kill that occurs as you can hear almost yearly, if not partially. Just to
give you an example of winter kill type situation, if you're not familiar
with it, we look at approximately of 2 parts per million as a critical
standard in the winter time type conditions. What that means is that
critical period is if it drops slowly throughout the ice covered condition
on the lake. Then it will 2 parts per million is kind of where the game
fish start dropping out.
Schroers: And what you're speaking of is oxygen content in the water?
Dave Zappetillo: Correct sir. That's absolutely correct. Just to give
you an example, Lake Susan last winter, the winter of '90-'91, in December
when we took it the first time, it was 8.3 parts per million a foot below
the surface and approximately 1 part per million on the bottom. A foot off
the bottom. In February, approximately the middle of February. I didn't
write down the exact date but it was approximately the middle of February,
we went out there and it was 1 part per million on the surface and about .4
of a part per million so we knew that unless the fish could find a refuge,
the game fish, any of the species of fish out there, then they were in a
very stressful condition and more than likely were winter kill. That's why
we made the additional stocking of walleye fry in this past spring. Any
other specific questions I can address and I'll turn it over to Jerry here.
~..
Jerry Johnson: Hi. I'm ;erry Johnson and I'm the Regional Project
Coordinator for the Department of Natural Resources in the seven county
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 10
...".,
metro area. Part of my job responsibilities is to coordinate aeration
systems for various communities. Todd asked me to describe a couple
different types of aeration systems we work with. The first one is the
oxygen diffuser type and there's one over at Round Lake in Eden Prairie.
That system would be similar to an aquariam where you've got a pump
injecting oxygen into the water column. The drawback to this type of
system is that it keeps, it erodes the ice so you're looking at a lot of
open water. Now the system at Round Lake is operated prior to ice up in
hopes that it will turn the lake over and inject enough oxygen into the
water column so it will make it through the winter months. Unfortunately
the last fall it was operated for such a short time due to some maintenance
problems that there wasn't enough available oxygen to make it through the
winter so we had to supplement that system with a portable pump and baffle
type system. Now that type of system is the one I would recommend for Lake
Susan and that is basically a pump on floats which pumps water from a
certain point in the lake to an artificial cascade or baffle system and it
cascades down this ladder of baffles and oxygen is mixed with the water at
that point. It enters the waters it is fairly highly oxygenated water.
That again creates a refuge area which will keep fish from experiencing
winter kill conditions. There is a third type of aeration system and this
type is used down at Cedar Lake and Scott County. Compare it to a bait
store aggitator in the minnow tank where the device actually aggitates
water, churns water and is directed in a specific direction and sets up
currents but again this creates a large open area of water which is fairly
undesireable.
,
Schroers: From the standpoint of safety?
...".,
Jerry Johnson: Correct. There's several types. A portable pump and
baffle type aeration system can be installed. One is where we have these
at various locations around the Twin Cities. I mentioned that we used the
one at Round Lake last winter. The baffle system sits right on shore and
the water cascades and just enters the lake from shore and it keeps a small
area of water open. Another application of this system and we're working
on right now with the Minneapolis Park Board is that you bury the
artificial cascade so it's not even seen. Thus reducing some of the
maintenance problems of icing up, etc.. But then the water is directed
farther out into the lake and there is no open water problem associated
with that type. Unfortunately that's very expensive and it sounds like
your budget wouldn't allow such an application. On the other hand the
portable pump and baffle type. we would be able to pick up the majority of
the purchase price. You would be responsible for runni"ng power to the
system and taking care of minor maintenance. Of course you need to apply
for the permit and mark the system properly.
schroers:
the lake?
Is the portable pump and baffle system as efficient in aerating
Will it do the job?
Jerry Johnson: Yeah. a lake this size it would be no problem. I've
already done some calculations. For a lake this size it would require a 10
hp motor with an 8 inch pump. About 150 feet of a foot hose and a baffle
chute. The dimensions are 24 inch x 24 inch x 144 inches. That system is
approximately $30,000.00 and that's a good round number for the systems we
issue through our CORE.
...."
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 11
Schroers: And your department or the Department of Natural Resources will
pick up some of the cost or the majority of it? All of the cost for
putting that into Lake Susan?
Jerry Johnson: Right.
Schroers: Then what would your recommendation be to safeguard the area?
Just fencing it and then putting thin ice signs?
Jerry Johnson: Right. Exactly. That's all spelled out in the application
documentation.
Schroers: There's actual standards and stuff?
Jerry Johnson: Yeah. And a lot of communities have actually gotten the
blaze orange fencing.
Schroers: Yeah, construction fencing.
Jerry Johnson: Sure. To tell you a little bit about the CORE program and
how it works. We accept applications and then write them in a priority
order for the seven county metro region. At budget time we sit down and
see how much money we have available to us and then go through the priority
for funding these projects.
~ Lash: So are you saying we'd just be on the list?
Jerry Johnson: Right.
Lash: So you're not saying that we would not.
Jerry Johnson: I can't guarantee that you would get one.
Robinson: And there was.
Jerry Johnson: There was 4 applications last year and 3 of the 4 were
funded.
Robinson: And what would be the responsibility of the City of Chanhassen?
The maintenance?
Jerry Johnson: Right. And the liability insurance.
Schroers: And supplying the power?
Jerry Johnson: Right.
Schroers: And that 10 horse power motor is an electric motor?
Jerry Johnson: Right. It's a three phase electric motor but with the unit
comes a three phase power converter. I'm not an electrician. I don't
quite understand this but as long as you have single phase coming to the
power pole, the systems come with about 150 foot of cord. The three phase
~ converter can be put right on the power pole.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 -: Page 12
-'"
Robinson: What else would maintenance entail? The electricity.
Jerry Johnson: Sometimes these units have a tendency to ice up so daily
inspections to make sure that water is flowing. The pump's running.
Everything's intact. .
Schroers: And it would be the City's responsibility I'm pretty sure to put
up the fencing and signs in regard to safety?
Jerry Johnson: Correct.
Pemrick: Is that all removed when the ice is out?
Jerry Johnson: Definitely.
Lash: And the City does that or you do that?
Jerry Johnson: The City does that. We purchase it and then it's your
responsibility to house, maintain it and equip it.
Andrews: Who owns it then? The City or do you still own it?
Jerry Johnson: We do.
Andrews: You do? Alright.
Schroers: Do you have to apply for that permit on a yearly basis or once
you're granted a permit can you aerate from that point on?
......"
Jerry Johnson: It's an annual renewal.
Lash: What is the life expectancy of one of these things?
Jerry Johnson: 20 years.
Schroers: When you get a permit, say the first time it gets approved, we
get the system and the second year, if we already have the system here and
we apply for it, is that basically just a formality to renew the permit?
Jerry Johnson: Right. I want to go back to your question. The system
doesn't have to run every year.
Lash: How do yoU know which years you have to run it?
Jerry Johnson: We have an oxygen monitoring program where we check area
lakes on a periodic basis and we don't or we will recommend to various
communities when it's time to turn the machine on. When it gets
dangerously close to winter kill conditions.
Lash: You'll set it up each time or the City has to set it up?
Jerry Johnson: No. The manufacturer, the successful bidder is required to
give a seminar and set up demonstrations for the equipment and from then on
it's the responsibility of the city or community to set up the equipment.
...."
",......
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 13
Andrews: Is this something where like at mid-winter we might be notified
that it's time to turn it on?
Jerry Johnson: We give you plenty of advance notice.
Andrews: So you keep cutting holes in ice or is this something where?
Jerry Johnson: Yeah, the pump needs to be set in an open water space.
That's usually done by' cutting a hole 3 feet by 3 feet with a chainsaw.
It's really not that big of undertaking.
Andrews: I just kept imaging these 20 guys out there cutting this giant
hole.
Schroers: Probably 2 guys and half a day could activate the system don't
you think?
Jerry Johnson: I worked with the City of Eden Prairie last winter and the
three of us who had never put one together and you know worked on one
before had no problem setting it up ourselves.
Lash: So if the thing breaks down or wears out or in 20 years when it's
all been used, then do you just replace it or do we have to apply for a new
grant again?
".....
Jerry Johnson: I suspect in 20 years, in 10 years we'll have a whole new
type of aeration system.
Koubsky: Jerry, what's the pump capacity on that? How much water are you
turning over?
Jerry Johnson: Our formula is that the system needs to produce 10 gallons
per minute per acre and Susan is almost 100 acres so we need to produce
1,000 gallons per minute. And the pump of 10 horsepower would be to
provide 1,500 gallons per minute. It's nice to go high than low.
Koubsky: So then as your fish populations increase, which this is designed
to do correct. Do any of the communities kind of face then an over
population problem where they're becoming mOTe and mOTe depende~t on this
as they get more fish?
Dave Zappetillo: Well yes it is but it's also you have a space in other
environmental conditions that will maintain your fish population out there.
You have a space, critical carrying capacities of the lake. Things like
that are self limiting. You can't put two fish in one space you know.
That's one thing that you can't do so as you establish a good population,
you'll have some big one, medium ones and smalls and as that sets up, then
what you're trying to do then is just maintain a refuge for those fish to
survive in. That's the one thing you've got to keep in mind. It's not
going to create where it's going to make the lake OT ice disappear. It's
creating refuge of 2 parts per million or better so that fish are under a
less stressful condition.
.~ Andrews: Do you typically close that kind of lake to ice fishing?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 14
....."
Dave Zappetillo: No. Absolutely not. Especially with a pump and baffle,
that's the positive side of it. The safety factor is limited. If you do
for some reason, some child or inquisitive adolescent goes over the fence,
I mean if they drop through thin ice, they're going to drop up to their
waste max. So the area is a real shallow area that you're physically
dropping into and that's why the Department is to get a grant is almost
going exclusively pump and baffle because of that simple safety factor.
Andrews: I guess what I'm envisioning here is ice fishermen being what
they are, they would tend to get as close to this thing as they possibly
could because that's where the fish are going to be. .
Dave Zappetillo: Well, there is that possibility but the thing about the
pump and baffle is it shoots it under the ice so you have a current of,
well at the beginning it's about 7 or 8 parts per million. I've heard
numbers thrown out and as it goes further and further out into the lake
obviously the volume is such that it's going to be reduced but you still
have better than 2 parts per million so the fish will seek out the best
area. But it's still limited to volume of the lake. You're not going to
find them right up at the pump and baffle. They can't handle the current
so they're going to be further out.
Andrews: This is kind of a question out of left field here but reading
about milfoil being, prefers lakes of 20 feet or less as ideal growing
conditions. Is this going to any way.
Dave Zappetillo: Promote that?
....",
Andrews: Pardon me?
Dave Zappetillo: Are you saying promoting that?
Andrews: Promote milfoil for growth.
Dave Zappetillo: The milfoil when it shows up will seek it's own and what
you're trying to do has no bearing whatsoever on the fish population. What
you've just got to keep in mind now, what you're trying to do is maintain
the, allow the fish to survive a critical period in Minnesota. So the
other environmental conditions that would impact that body of water is not
a factor here. That's what you're trying to resolve and maintain a quality
fishery throughout the year. If you know the, if you've ever seen the hour
glass, you're trying to open that neck of that hour glass as wide as you
can to allow another year to continue.
Koubsky: Jerry or Dave, does trepidity become an issue?
Dave Zappetillo: Generally not because what happens, what you generally do
is you put a solid area below where the initial force of the water hits.
I've seen hoods of cars and things like that. Something that can
physically be removed so it will disipate that energy and move it out. I
don't know what is Eden Prairie.
Jerry Johnson: I guess I don't understand.
....."
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ August 27, 1991 - Page 15
Koubsky: Well your shooting water down. Obviously you're not shooting it
up towards the ice because that would melt the ice and create a weak point
so I see a 1,000 gallons a minute being injected into the water and if it's
hitting the sediment, I see a silt problem.
Jerry Johnson: Yeah, there's a plate on the base of the baffle system and
it directs the flow out and not down. There is no problem. We did have a
problem over at Round Lake last winter in the bottom plate wasn't set up
properly and scoured a small hole that was soon corrected. It's really not
an issue.
Dave Zappetillo: May I suggest if you were truly interested and obviously
we're talking a couple years. Maybe a year. Maybe a couple. It depends
on what funding. I can never predict, just like you can't predict what the
legislature's going to do. In funding various programs like this but the
City of Eden Prairie which is one of your neighbors here do have two pump
and baffles. Brand new systems within the last year.' One is on Red Rock
Lake and one is for Mitchell Lake. I would approach them and any problems
that they would have I would suggest talking. If you want to see a system
in operation, I know one will be on both of those lakes probably this
winter, assuming we have a severe winter. You can't predict something else
like that and that's the other advantage of this pump and baffle system
that you should be aware of. Unlike a helexer system where you've got to
start that before or during an early part of the winter because if you
don't you literally can cause a winter kill because you take a certain
Jf!II""" amount of the energy of the force coming up to melt the ice to create the
open water. A pump and baffle system, you start it when you need to do it
and you want to hit it before you hit that critical period but to give
yourself enough leeway. Therefore the 0 & M is reduced because you may no~
start it until January 15th maybe and run it for 3 weeks because by
February 30th the lakes are starting to break up anyway. So those are the
other positive things that come into play here.
Schroers:
fisheries
on a lake
And would
the rough
I'm wondering about maybe some other positive aspects in your
program. Are your people more eager to do more fish management
that is aerated because you think the rate of success is better?
you possibly be interested in doing something to remove some of
fish out of the lake to give a healthier game fish population?
Dave Zappetillo: Well, a couple things that come into mind here. We're
eager in the sense that we know the work that we're going to do has a
relative success potential. This is one of the things that I can honestly
say that when I put right in my proposal when I established to stock Susan
Lake. I said right after that we would stock it if a winter kill occurs.
This is one of the things that we understand these problems occur and we
will try to maintain it as best we can. Those yes. I would be more than,
I wouldn't say more than eager but I'd be more favorably look upon
something like that that I know that what we're doing has some relative
means of success. I will hesitate if I know that next year I know it's
going to have a strong potential of dying because why waste the time and
energy. It doesn't make any sense. As for removing under utilized
species, usually that's self limiting too because as your gate fish
population rises, the other population will start to reduce because your
lake is only going to carry so many pounds of fish total. Whether they're
1"""
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 16
....,
all carp, bullheads, walleyes or whatever. That's self limiting in just
the volume of the water and other environmental conditions. So as you
start managing for game fish, your other population, you will not, we have
found that removing bullheads or carp physically doesn't really pay because
the repopulation comes in very quickly.
schroers: If the lake is healthy then it has kind of a self regulating?
Dave Zappetillo: You bet. You bet and that's our goal. I mean these
creatures have been on this earth longer than we have in most cases and my
goal is to make sure they take care of themselves because they'll do a lot
better job than I could ever do it.
Robinson: If Lake Susan is a maximum depth of 17 feet, do you happen to
know what Lake Ann is or Lake Lucy?
Dave Zappetillo: Not off the top of my head. I don't.
Hoffman: Lake Ann is about 36 feet and Lake Lucy's about the same as
Susan. 16 or 17.
Robinson: Okay. Does Lucy have the public access at this time?
Dave Zappetillo: Lucy does not have a public access.
Lash: Who's the supplier for the system?
Jerry Johnson: There is three different vendors that have gotten bids in
the past. One is Persone and Company. Excuse me, Persone Pump Company...
out of North St. Paul. The other successful vendor was Tri State Pump and
Control of Minnetonka and Edina. There was another one but they're
insignificant at this point. They either disbanded.
....",
Lash: Isn't there a company right in Chaska?
Hoffman: They make the aeration. They make the impeller type which shoots
the air.
Lash: So, not this type of system?
Hoffman: No.
Schroers: I have some personal experience on Hyland Lake in Bloomington
and when I first began to work there that was a bad lake. It was filthy.
It didn't produce much other than bullheads and carp. It had a severe
algae problem. The lake smelled terribly in the summertime from the algae
and from the dead fish. I was involved in a restoration program there by
which we drained the water out of the lake. Cleaned up the lake bottom.
Old farm machinery and barrels and all sorts of things that were in there
and also treated for algae and then an aeration system, the cascading type
was installed there and that is now a very healthy lake with lots of nice
bass and sunfish in it and people enjoy it a lot and it's a definite
attribute to the community rather than an eyesore and a pain. From what
I'm hearing here, if the DNR is gracious enough to provide this equipment
-'
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ August 27, 1991 - Page 17
"
IfI"'"
to us without charge to the City, it seems like a reasonable thing. I
think there are other people in the audience that would like to comment.
Al Klingelhutz:
been before the
on Lake Susan.
years now.
Well I haven't been before you people very often but I've
City Council a few times and Planning Commission. I live
I've lived by Lake Susan all my life which entails about 70
Hoffman: Al Klingelhutz for the record.
Al Klingelhutz: And I'm Al Klingelhutz. Address 8600 Great Plains Blvd..
I've known the lake for a long time. I've fished the lake for a long time.
Years ago when we were kids you didn't have much opportunity to go to any
other lakes unless you walked there and occasionally I did that down to
Riley or Lotus but as I can recall and my mother was born raised in the
same area and so was Gene Klein's dad who's sitting back here in the
audience. The first time the lake actually, what I call froze out was
when I was in the 7th grade at school. Before that time I would say that
Lake Susan was one of the best fishing lakes in this whole area. In the
winter time you see lots of fish houses for northerns and a lot of people
out there crappie fishing and they're always good sized crappie. After
that time the lake took a while to restore itself. Because we did not have
a public access we did not get any fish deposited in the lake. It was
dependent on the creeks running in and out of the lake to get restocked and
we didn't have a lot of rain that the creeks run. It took a few years for
the lake to rejuvenate. Some of the things that have happened to Lake
Susan in the last 10 years as far as quite a few erosion problems from
development in the city I don't think has helped the situation too much. I
give the people on Lake Susan a lot of respect for not opposing public
access on the lake like some other people possibly in the city have done so
that some of these things can be done in the future. This year I've been
out fishing and I like to take my grandchildren out and the neighbor boys
have been fishing and I just talked to Gene Klein here and his son was out
on the dock the other night and caught a walleye about 7 or 8 inches long.
The one night I was out there trying to fish for sunfish and I caught 5
walleye. I was really surprised when they told me the oxygen count was
down to 1. per thousand and these fish were stocked in 1990 and they lived
through that low oxygen thing. So did the sunfish, so did the bass. We've
caught several bass down there that weigh approximately a pound and a half.
Earlier in the year when the sunfish were biting better we did catch some
fairly good sized sunfish. But you can go down there and catch any
amount of sunfish just a little bit too small to take home and put in a pan
at this time. There was even one northern pike caught and I understand
that, I talked to the DNR people here that they did not stock any northern
pike and I just feel being we had heavy rains and the creek run between
Susan and Rice and Riley, we did get some northern pike back up into Lake
Susan...they've got inside their stomach. Here about 3 weeks ago my son
and I went out there and we caught 3 of these bass weighed an average of
about a pound and a half and did a little disecting into their intestines
.and we found 2 of these small bullheads in and another small bullhead in
another one and the other one had a minnow in him so what they were saying
about the fish equalizing themselves in the lake. When you get some of
these predator fish in the lake will take care of some of these unsavory
fish like a bullhead and small carp as they hatch and things like that. I
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 18
...."tI
feel grateful and I talked to Todd about an aerator for Lake Susan I think
for the last 2 years now. It just seems being we're going to have a public
approach on the lake, the city's planning on putting a dock out there, a
lot of the young people, children will be using that dock, it would be a
shame to let the supply of fish that are in there today die out if we have
another bad winter. What's great about the new public approach is the
DNR's going to manage this area and if they feel that the fish population
is inbalanced, they will put in a new stock of fish that would bring this
balance in the proper order again. I'm sure and I talked to, we had a
neighborhood party a week ago last Sunday and talked to most of the
neighbors about this. I'm sure if you have a public hearing that you're
going to get a lot of support for an aerator in Lake Susan. One other
thing I'm going to mention. Remember, I don't know if too many of you
remember when they were going to put a landfill just south of Chanhassen
here and I kind of headed up a force to avoid getting that landfill there.
We had a lot of people donate dollars to fight this and after we were all
through and got the landfill defeated, I deposited $300.00 in the State
Sank of Chanhassen which is still in there and I think it was most of the
people in that area that would get a lot of benefit from this and if you
feel that you're going to need this $300.00, I think it would pay for the
electricity for at least the first year or so. Thank you. And you'll get
that check immediately when you get the aerator.
Schroers: Thanks a lot. I don't see this as a real problem issue. I
don't know actually how much more time we need to spend on this issue. If
any of the commission members have any particular questions in regard to
what effects it would have on the lake or the fish, we could address that.
Otherwise I guess I would be ready to entertain a motion in favor.
-'"
Robinson: Just one more question. Is this a typical process where the DNR
would purchase the equipment and the local community would maintain it such
as we're talking about here?
Jerry Johnson: Right. If something major would go wrong with the system,
and at that point it'd be up to the manufacturer or the DNR.
schroers: Generally speaking an aerated lake, the fish grow to a larger
size in a shorter amount of time. Is that correct?
Dave Zappetillo: Well no, that's not correct as such. There's a lot of
variables that come into that equation but generally speaking, usually the
bodies of water that require aeration are usually very fertile for whatever
reason. Surface runoff. Usually hard surface runoffs are a lot more
fertile than if it ran over grass or something but generally they're very
fertile basins. That's one of the reasons they freeze out is because -the
wintertime they use more in decomposition than is produced in the
wintertime or the volume has so the factors that would allow for fast
growing fish is there. So therefore, what you want to do is you reach a
larger sized fish quicker than you would in someplace like the northea~tern
part of the State because the fertility isn't there. You still have the
limiting factor of the number of fish that can reach the larger size. You
still have the volume consideration. The size of the lake is only 100
acres so those things are just like your aquarium at home. You put in a
small fish in there, it's still only going to reach a size relative to the
..."
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~. August 27, 1991 - Page 19
space that's available to it. So I mean those are the things that you as a
manager, when you do that you look at those things. But you've got to
start and if you know that you're not even going to reach a growth
potential in 2-3 years because you know that the winter kill's going to
occur, or partial winter kill and that means that the most susceptible will
go and the ones that aren't so susceptible will stay around. I think this
is what happened here is that you're catching some of the fish that are a
little bit more hardy. Or they found a small refuge but the population is
not there. So I mean those are the things, and then when you have a real
hard winter, real thick ice, lots of snow, then the whole thing will go.
You just don't know when that's going to occur.
Schroers: Even with an aerator in it may totally freeze out in an
extremely bad winter?
Dave Zappetillo: I have never experienced that except for one time and
that was on Hyland Lake. What happened there is the aerator broke down
so I mean it really wasn't, they had problems with it mechanically and they
didn't run it for a period of time and we had a partial winter kill, but
that's the exception rather than the rule. I have not heard, when an
aeration system is put in properly, and I emphasize that because it has
some design limitations. Size of lakes that you can put these in and
things like that. But as long as it's put in properly, I've never had one
experience a winter kill no matter what kind of winter we had.
~ Jerry Johnson: It's more an issue of the fish finding the refuge area if
the winter kill conditions are severe. We have a lake on the east side of
St. Paul that's a very shallow basin and we seem to get a fish kill every
year and it's just a small percentage of the population. It looks
significant when they're up on shore in the spring but it really isn't.
And these fish just have not found the refuge area or they're blocked from
the refuge area because of the shallow water and the lack of oxygen. Water
cou nt .
Andrews: One last question of Todd. Would the electricity and maintenance
of this come directly out of Park Board funding or would that come out of
city funding after installation. We would go ahead and budget for it in
one of the park functions, correct.
Jerry Johnson: A system of this size requires about $7.00 a day in
electricity cost.
Lash: And typically it would start in December sometime do you think or
not until January?
Jerry Johnson: It varies with the winter. I would say the average time is
the middle of January.
Lash: Two months maybe tops?
Jerry Johnson: Two or three depending on the winter.
"
Schroers: So it'd be like $240.00 for an entire season operating cost?
Park and Rec Commission-Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 20
....,.,;I
Dave Zappetillo: If you really want hard figures, and I re-emphasize, look
and if you're interested in seeing a system work, I would go look at Red
Rock or Mitchell which I say is your neighbor here and ask them
specifically any unique questions for the area. So it's fairly close and
it's in a similar type situation. They're bigger, well no. Red Rock's
about the same size come to think of it so it gives you, if you really want
to see, to correlate something for budget purposes. We can give you
ballpark figures for what we've experienced and everything but if you
really want to talk to someone who's physically running one, check with
them.
Hoffman: I have been in contact with the City of Eden prairie for some
preliminary information and they'd be glad to provide any additional. I
think one clarification for the benefit of the audience who do not have the
report. The one down side to all of this is that we're not eligible for a
cycle 1991 grant or for this upcoming year so we have really no mechanism
to go ahead and install this this coming year. We would have to take a
look at a 1992 grant application and make it through one more year out at
Lake Susan without an aeration system. Then again we would, as they
stressed, we would only be eligible for that grant application. The CORE
or the Cooperative Opportunity for Resource Enhancement program is the same
program which we acquired the fishing pier at Lake Ann which Jerry works
with. And again at this time I'd like to take a moment just to thank both
Jerry and Dave for coming out. The time they took is very appr~ciated.
I know Dave at least was at the State Fair all day and working the crowds
so it tacked an extra addition onto his day at least.
Andrews: Do you need a motion for a public hearing?
...""
Hoffman: If you want to pursue that, yes and then I would layout some
type of timeline to take a look. Again, unfortunately we're not in a hurry
so that would probably take place sometime after the first of the year and
then look into a schedule.
Jerry Johnson: Can I stop you there?
Hoffman: Sure.
Jerry Johnson: I require a CORE application by the end of the year so
you're in line for the next budget cycle.
Hoffman: Great. We'll move that up.
Jerry Johnson: So we'd want it at the latest December 1st.
Schroers: of 1991?
Jerry Johnson: Of 1991. And I require resolution from the Board because
we have a number of projects out there that were funded and the city
official who submitted the application didn't bother asking the rest of the
city officials.
pemrick: Is there a noise nuisance for nearby neighbors if this runs 24
hours a day?
..."
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ August 27, 1991 - Page 21
Lash: If we want to have the public hearing, maybe we want to talk about
it if you think that's even necessary or whatever but if we decide we don't
want to take the time to do that, I would certainly want a letter or maybe
there could be a neighborhood meeting that you could explain to them what's
happening. Some way for them to be kept up to date on what's happening.
Schroers: Could we simplify this process this evening by just making a
motion to direct staff to go ahead with the necessary proceedings in
regards to applying for the grant?
Hoffman: Sure.
Robinson: I'd second that.
Schroers moved, Robinson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
direct staff to take appropriate action in coordinating procedures
necessary to pursue acqusition of an aerator for Lake SUsan. All voted in
favor and the motion carried unanimously.
Al Klingelhutz: I'd just like to ask the DNR people one question. What
other thing could be done to...in the winter of 1991-92? To save the fish
that we have there now.
Dave Zappetillo: Well this is something that I would suggest. I've heard
it presented on a couple of occasions if you're looking at a very short
.~ timeframe. The simplest thing that I would do to save a body of water like
this for a one year period is shovel the snow off. Make sure the ice is
safe of course but just remove the snow. Remove the snow on a portion of
the lake. You wouldn't have to remove it all I wouldn't think but remove
as much as, you know one of the basins somewhere. That was one of the
things that I would suggest or if the homeowners wanted to do it or the
Asociation wanted to do it. That's probably the simplest and easiest.
What you want to do is allow the light to penetrate through for any plants
that may be still alive, they can photosynthesize. That's probably one of
the simplest things you can do short of digging. Opening holes or
something because the inherent problem with that. There's no guarantees
that that will work but I've seen it experienced in other bodies of water
and usually that associated with kids doing hockey rinks. They create a
hockey rink out of the pond and they keep it open and generally that's
enough.
Schroers: Ice fishermen drilling holes into the lake really doens't do
anything as far as oxygenation?
Dave Zappetillo: Not enough unless you get a lot of them out there. There
is something if you really want to see what we call in the business a boom
and bust fisheries. If you look at the lake survey that we have that was
done in 1988. By the way, this will be rescheduled for 1983 to be done.
We try to do a one in every 5 year cycle. That's usually our routine.
Look, you can almost see it because we fly over designated areas for fish
house counts and generally these are permanent houses that we fly over
and Lake Susan, we put this as part of the lake survey. Lake Susan, just
interesting. I was just looking at that because it's a classic example of
it. Anglers will go out there when there's fish available to catch. But
;1"'---
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27. 1991 - Page 22
......,,;
in 1985. '86 and '87 they had 5 fish house counts. Now that was before the
public access went in so you know they were local people. But in '88 and
'89 there were zero. In 1990 I believe there was zero also. Now we try to
do this the same time of the year every year and we schedule it so it gives
you a good idea when there was a fisheries out there that was worth angling
for and when there wasn't. And I'll almost bet a nominal sum of money that
once an aeration system goes in there and fisheries is established you'll
see that number jump dramatically.
Schroers: Interesting. Thank you very much for your time. We appreciate
it.
PARK AND TRAIL FEE REVENUE REPORT.
Hoffman: Item 4 is brought to the Commission as a point of interest to
keep you up to date with how the park and trail fees are coming in. As of
July 31, 58% of the year expired, we had just about $57,000.00 in park fees
collected and $20,300.00 in trail fees collected. Again, those fees
represent in park fees, 51.6% of our budget which is then slightly below
that 58% and 40.5% of the budgeted amount for trail fees which is
considerably more or less than the 51.6. However with a good portion of
the busy construction season ahead of us, it's no cause for alarm at this
time. Park and trail revenues this year account for $60,000.00 of the
$175,000.00 budgeted for improvements in the fund 410, Park Acquisition and
Development. The remaining ~15,000.00 is budgeted under donations of which
only $1,700.00 or 11.33% have been collected to date. The explanation
given there I believe we've discussed before. Chaska Lion's have pulled
out of Filly's and currently only operate at Pauly's. I can't predict what
the total amount of donations will be but it certainly will be less than
$15,000.00. Point of interest. The reason or one of the reasons we're so
far behind or further behind in trail fees is that a major portion of those
homes being developed this year are in the Lake Susan Hills West and with
the sidewalks which they're constructing in that area, there's no trail fee
collected from those building permits so that's a high percentage of the
building permits in the city this year. So that's why that's shown as
slightly behind. Again, not a big concern at this time. With the
construction of the grocery store. mall area pending, if that comes
through, that will more than heal our deficit here in short order. For
your interest again, an itemization of park and trail fees collected to
date is shown. You also have a map of the revenue zones which been created
following natural instructional boundaries for our finance department and
Park and Recreation Department to be able to track where those revenues are
coming from. At this time I will take any questions from the commission
members on the revenue report.
..",
Schroers: Looks to me like it's well prepared and pretty self explanatory.
Robinson: And you expect the trend to continue and we can expect a
shortfall at year end?
Hoffman: A shortfall?
Robinson: Yeah.
....",
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
"", August 27, 1991 - Page 23
Hoffman: Again, if the pending grocery store comes through, we should make
up that difference in that one building permit coming through. That's a
large piece of property. It's commercial. It will be charged $2,500.00
per acre. I don't recall the total acreage off the top of my head but it's
approximately 15-20 acres.
Schroers:
be built.
What's the hold up on that? I thought that was already going to
Where's the problem?
Hoffman: The word right now sounds like ground breaking in September for
the grocery store. But again that's.
Schroers: That must be just about as difficult as an archery range.
Hoffman: Pretty close.
Lash: And a South Lotus tennis court.
Schroers: Okay, do we need to spend anymore time on item 4? Anything else
on that?
SITE PLAN REVIEW: CHANHASSEN BUSINESS CENTER PUD.
Schroers: We're going to omit item 5 tonight. The person involved wished
to extend for sometime down the road because they have some more work to do
,..... on that.
Hoffman: Can I just have a moment to make some brief comments Larry?
Schroers: Sure.
Hoffman: It was pulled at the request of Ryan Construction, the company
who owns the property and then RLK Associates, the people working with them
on that. Initial reactions from Ryan upon discussing this recommendation
with Kent Carlson, the property development manager, was fairly passive.
He wasn't too worried about the report recommendations. However, after
Ryan and RLK had time to discuss the matter they asked that it be pulled
from tonight's agenda. Presumably that's to give them an opportunity to
develop a rebuttal to my recommendation which was prepared for tonight. So
that gives them a month's timeframe until our next meeting. So again this
item will be scheduled again for September 24th. I believe that the basis
of that report presented by the applicant will be their belief that Outlot
A should be accepted in lieu of park fees. We'll prepare an updated report
on this item in response to additional information provided by the
applicant over the next few weeks. I believe they are going to come in
with a revised development plan which then we'll have to work off of. If
in reviewing this item between now and the upcoming meeting commission
members have any questions, either give me a call or stop in the office and
we'll go through it. It's a big chunk of property and as stated in my
report in your packet, they wish to dedicate Outlot A and then to construct
a trail in lieu of full park and trail dedication fees. It is staff's
belief falling back on city ordinances that Outlot A does not meet the
requirements of land which is eligible for parkland dedication credit. As
stated, we can visualize what these people are going to be wanting that are
"....
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27. 1991 - Page 24
....",
working in that location. They're going to want to be involved in youth
athletic associations and in adult softball leagues and active type of
pursuits. That Outlot A contains the creek which is already protected by
the setback. The 75 foot setback. Contains their holding pond which is as
we've heard tonight...undesireable. It's in the Watershed District. They
pose very stringent restrictions on it so it's not as if we don't accept it
they can develop that piece of property but they certainly would like to
get out from beneath the approximately $160.000.00 in park fees that this
would generate if we did accept it.
Lash: Have we in any of the other industrial areas like this taken park
property?
Hoffman: Rosemount we accepted additional park property for Lake Susan for
the construction of the boat access. So definitely that was a trade-off
but we also, that was just a portion of their park fees.
Andrews: We got a piece of quality property.
Hoffman: Correct.
Lash: But that was for an overall kind of scheme of things for a community
park. I mean in a typical industrial complex like this, do we want to
plunk a park in the middle of the whole thing?
Hoffman: Not necessarily, no. As I stated. if they were willing to give
us one of their lots to construct ballfields on for the leagues which that
area is going to generate, it's a large industrial development. Upwards of
thousands of employees. If they would want to do that we would certainly
consider that but short of that, I recommend that we go after the park
fees.
...,
Schroers: Well the location of this really doesn't lend itself very well
for park property anyway.
Koubsky: The one problem though is everybody with the softball. everybody
would be over at the Sunset Ridge ballfield which is a neighborhood park.
That's the closest thing. It's right across the street.
Hoffman: Hopefully they're involved in some type of industrial softball
league which would then take place at Lake Ann.
1991 MINNESOTA RECREATION AND PARK ASSOCIATION ANNUAL CONFERENCE.
Hoffman: The 1991 MRPA conference is scheduled for Wednesday. Thursday and
Friday this November 20th thru 22nd at the Radisson Hotel in Bloomington,
Minnesota. Same location which it was held last year. There's an
opportunity for any commission who would like to partake in this conference
if you choose. The daily conference package as well as full conference
packages are available to board and commission members of MRP which this
commission is. The budget for commission member participation in our 1991
budget totals $500.00. The conference includes keynote speakers.
educational sessions. general sessions. the Hall of Ideas and Exhibit Hall,
professional meetings, socials and awards banquet. Some of you may have,
..."",
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ August 27, 1991 - Page 25
are more familiar than others withe the conference but it is our
professional conference within the state of Minnesota for professionals
within the field of recreation and parks. We should see registration
materials coming out in your Keeping Up. If you don't receive that let me
know and I'll get you a copy of those materials. And if you are interested
in at all attending, please contact me or let your intentions be known
tonight and I'll kind of act as a booking registration agent for any
commission members who would like to become involved on either a limited or
more extensive basis.
Schroers: Can you obtain a schedule or calendar of events. I've been to
this in the past and there are some things that go on at certain times that
people may be more interested in rather than not interested. If you have a
schedule you can look at what day might be a better day to attend because
different things are scheduled on different days.
Hoffman: Sure. I happen to be on the conference work committee and have a
fairly concise schedule of events. I'll make sure that is up to date and
then I can mail that to you so we have some time inbetween when the actual
final registration material will come out to take a look at that and see if
you are indeed interested.
Schroe.s: What days of the week did you say that was?
Hoffman: Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.
~
Lash: Is that the week before Thanksgiving?
Hoffman: Thanksgiving?
Ruegemer: Thanksgiving's the 27th I think.
Hoffman: Just a show of hands of anybody who may be interested. Okay.
Again, once you see the schedule of events, then you can get into a
particular topic. Perhaps something jumps out at you of special interest
on a personal basis.
Sch.oe.s: Having attended this in the past, I can tell you that there ,are
a few very interesting speakers. You're likely to pick up some good
information and be kind of entertained at the same time.
Lash: So people...and this is just a personal questions. Do you take a
vacation day or since you work for Hennepin Parks are they like happy for
you to take off work to go to this?
Schroers: That depends on how things are going and how I'm getting along
with my supervisor at that point in time. They might say that that would
be.
Andrews: It depends if he gets caught.
,.....
Schroers: If they feel that it would be beneficial to Hennepin Parks for
me to attend, they would probably, we have a deal where we can be paid for
education that will benefit the parks so I would have to work that out.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 26
...",
otherwise, a vacation day.
Andrews: Todd, if there's anything in that conference about a municipal
golf courses I would be interested in knowing when that might be scheduled.
Hoffman: I believe I saw something. I'll mail a schedule of events and
then just to take your own action in getting back to me on that. Either
before the next meeting.
ESTABLISH 1992 CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT BUDGET.
Hoffman: As discussed at the last meeting I was going to bring this back
either at this commission meeting or the following and then 10 and behold,
plop comes the budget material from the finance department on my desk so I
have to have that into them by the 9th so I went ahead and scheduled it on
this agenda. Again, the budget discussions were held the past 2
commission meetings. The June 25th and July 23rd meeting. The results of
those work sessions is tabulated in the attached proposed 1992 park
acqusition and development CIP. A budget cap of $150,000.00 was utilized
in preparing this recommendation. This includes anticipated revenues of
$145,000.00 in park and trail fees and $5,000.00 in donations from the
Chaska Lion's. Park and trail fee revenues for 1992 are estimated taking
into account past revenue totals. Performance in this area this year and
the forecasted building activity in Chanhassen for 1992 and beyond. The
figure of $145,000.00 is $30,000.00 less than the estimated revenue for
1991 and is slightly below the re-estimated actual revenue for that same
year. Consulting with the City Manager, staff is confident this budget
request will match closely with the actual conditions in 1992. As the
commission can see from the itemized 410 Park Acquisition and Development
budget, it accomplishes all items discussed at the last meeting.
Commissioners have the opportunity to comment on the proposed budgets
allowing changes to be made prior to the submission to the finance
department and eventually onto City Council. Again I'm also aware that the
commission has a desire to take a broader look at the department's
activities by making use of a detailed 5 year capital improvement program.
This particular discussiQn was not...for a series of work sessions starting
later this year. With that staff recommends approval of the 1992 capital
improvement budget as shown. Minor changes and detailed expenditures
requested by the commission can be accommodated.
....""
Schroers: Does anyone have questions in regards to the information Todd
has provided us with?
Koubsky: I think it all looked pretty good. I guess I would ask for a
couple of trees at Sunset Ridge Park. It's all pretty flat. There isn't a
lot of building on the west side. That gets pretty hot and you will be
putting in a play area. I know you re-arransed that a little bit but if
some trees could go on the west side of the play structure to create some
shade in the future.
Hoffman: To bring you up to date. The-park maintenance division is having
a strong replanting effort this fall and will be taking trees out of the
nursery to do that. Again, we have to exactly where the locations of all
the facilities and these will be prior to that occurring. Budgeted amounts
...."
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
,... August 27, 1991 - Page 27
which are shown in here. 4 trees would augment that tree farm plantings
and would then allow us to buy balled and burlap or spaded trees from a
local vendor. The larger size that we can handle out at the nursery to
supplement some of those areas, especially around play equipment and around
areas where we hold programs. Summer discovery playground at parks and
that type of thing.
Lash: That kind of answers my question because I thought that the trees
were free from the tree farm a.nd when I saw the $800.00 and those amounts
budgeted in a couple of places, I was kind of confused. But I think at the
last meeting Jim didn't you say you didn't think that North Lotus really
needed any trees? Maybe we could take the money from that and switch it to
Sunset.
Andrews: Yeah, the trees that are there are small but I think there are
enough there that given time they get a little bigger will provide the
shade that you'd really want. And if you put too many more there I think
you'd have a situation where 5-6 years from now you'd be removing a tree
which doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
Lash: So do you think we could just switch that?
Andrews: I think we could take that out of there yeah.
Hoffman: The intent with that again as stated at the last discussion was
~ for boulevard trees along the roadways to create a boulevard type of
presence along the ballfield and then along Pleasant View.
Lash: Well you know, if that's an aesthetic thing and there's already some
trees there and the other park doesn't have any trees, then it seems like
the need is to have some more where we have none and then later on go back
and do that. Just to make it better. Another thing that I had a question
on was the park signs. They're listed individually for each park and then
at the back there's $3,500.00 for 50 signs.
Andrews: That's for the rule signs. The other one was for the entry signs
that identify each park.
Lash: Oh, those aren't the rule signs?
Andrews: No.
Lash: Oh, okay. Then another question I had was on City Center Park play
equipment expansion and then 50% share?
Hoffman: The next phase of playground equipment for the south playground
would be $20,000.00 and we discussed at the last meeting that we would go
50/50 split with the school district. So if we go ahead and pass this
through final budget, we'll begin some preliminary discussions with the
school district so they know our intent.
,.....
Lash: But you don't have any kind of a commitment from them at this point
for any money right?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 28
---'
Hoffman: No.
Lash: I am going to try talking to Kitty Sitter from the APT of
Chanhassen. She's the President of the APT and I know that they already
donated a substantial amount last year. It will probably be tough fOT us
to try to get them to donate any more. But in doing some fundraising at
East Union Elementary a few years ago, I became aware of a funding program
through Lutheran Srotherhood Insurance Company. That if you do fund
raising on your own for something like for your school or some organization
but it has to be a concrete type thing. It can't be for paper goods or
things like that, they will match your fund raising efforts up to $1,500.00
so I thought maybe if I mentioned that to here we could get a commitment
from APT for $1,500.00 with Lutheran Brotherhood matching it and that would
be another $3,000.00 from them.
Hoffman: Again, that $10,000.00 can float around in there and if the
commitment does not come through, we can either allow it to stay in reserve
and gain interest or reallocate it at some point in the year.
Schroers: Okay. Any other particular concerns on the proposed budget?
Hoffman: Just to back up to Jan's comment. A note on the signs. The wood
park identification signs are the large wood routered signs. Traditionally
to purchase those was in excess of $500.00 so in talking with our park
maintenance people they will construct those signs over the winter
routering themselves and $250.00 is included for materials cost.
Materials, tooling, that type of thing for those signs so we'll go ahead
and begin making those ourselves.
-'
Schroers: Okay. Anything else? If not, we need a motion to recommend
approval of the Capital Improvement budget as shown for 1992.
Hoffman: With the noted change. $800.00 trees going to Sunset Ridge.
Andrews: I move that we approve Capital Improvement Budget as amended.
Pemrick: I'll second.
Lash: I'm sorry, I had another question. It's not going to change
anything but what are the, you have under Lake Susan aeration system,
installation $4,000.00.
Hoffman: Again, in talking to the folks at Eden Prairie, it's just a rough
estimate on the cost of the initial hook-up of electrical service and those
types of things for trenching that in. The purchase is obviously quite a
bit more than that. Maybe $30,000.00 so $4,000.00 presumably would take
care of the hook up and initial costs associated with that first year
connection. That does not include an allocation for electricity.
Electricity would not be coming out of the 410 budget. It would be taken
out of a 145 recreation budget.
....",r
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ August 27, 1991 - Page 29
Andrews moved, Pemrick seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend approval of the 1992 Capital Improvement Budget amended to change
the $800.00 installation of trees from North Lotus Lake Park to Sunset
Ridge Park. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously.
CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROJECT UPDATES:
LAKE SUSAN PARK.
Hoffman: This is brought to the Commission's attention. Just to keep you
up to date. We nave a lot of capital improvement projects taking place
within the city. Some are just beginning and some are in their completion
stages. Lake Susan, as stated. Work was to commence on that today. Monday
the contractor did miss, through some miscommunications amongst themselves,
did miss a locate meeting for utilities. That was rescheduled for tomorrow
morning and they tell me the excavator will be back in there sometime
tomorrow morning to begin excavation work on the parking area and the boat
ramp. The general contractor has been in there and installed the silt
fence down around the lake for construction activity and floating silt
curtain within the lake for the dredging out of the boat access area. So
we are moving foward. I know Larry had a question tonight about the archery
range and if we can speed things up there to attempt to get that into place
for this year's prime season for tuning up for the bow season. All through
the year I had no worries about that because completion date was set for
June 15th on this project. Obviously that has not occurred so.
""""""
Schroers: Has that been given to the contractor? Is the contractor
actually supposed to be putting in the archery range?
Hoffman: They're doing some work associated with that archery range,
correct.
Schroers: The grading or berming?
Hoffman: Grading, berming and then restoration of the area.
Schroers: So we have to wait for that? We can't go ahead and acquire
bales and put bales out there just so people have a place to get ready for
the season?
Hoffman: The contractor would push them over and do his work and would
have to go in there and install it. Unfortunately.
Lash: Are they giving you a completion date now?
Hoffman: Exact completion date is abou~ a month, month and a half. Again
that's just from the time that they start. I've frazzled myself in trying
to nail these people down and attempted to do so for this evening was
disappointed with them that I had to come back and say work had not started
today. Hopefully it will start tomorrow. Again to back up, that resulted
from the spring rains and then we also had the Watershed District imposed
stiffer restrictions on us than they originally had done so we had to go
back to the Watershed District which is a timely commitment to get their
approval on plan changes in the park development so as a result of those
,....
Park and Rec Commis~ion Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 30
"""""
two delays, here we are. Two months, two and a half months later.
SOUTH LOTUS LAKE PARK.
Hoffman: Again just an update of the update. The work has been completed
on there. The repair work and the bituminous patching which they
originally installed was completed today. That job has been flnaled. We
will do a final walk thru on it in the very near future and will go ahead
and take over the upkeep and maintenance of that area. A side note, as
part of their project or in conjunction with their project, the City public
works and park maintenance people will go ahead and reconstruct. As you
drive down the boat access the hill off to the right hand side was very
difficult to maintain because of the grade so they've deposited additional
fill in that area. Regraded it with the involvement of the two adjoing
property owners. Keeping them involved in the process and it looks much
nicer. They've restored the area and reseeded it so now the boat access in
it's present state should be very maintainable. The heavy rains which we
have seen, the new retention areas and holding pond in the lower area has
performed very well so in my opinion, hopefully this lake should no longer
be a pain in our side.
Koubsky: Was that all within budget Todd?
Hoffman: Correct. All within budget:..
Koubsky: They did a nice job.
Robinson: Yeah, it does look nice.
...",
CITY CENTER PARK.
Hoffman: City Center Park has progressed very smoothly. We had a final
walk through last Friday. They needed to reconstruct a portion of one
retaining wall which was in a leaning condition and take care of some
sodding problems and soil compaction. Those types of things. Minor
instances but the north playground, Judd Fehrman, the Eagle Scout project,
when he initially got into it he thought he took on something bigger than
he could handle but after a couple of days he saw that he could accomplish
it. He performed very well in doing so. Excavation of the excess soils
allowing installation of the pea gravel did occur. That was in the
contract which we approved there. City crews will begin installation of
the first phase of the handicapped accessible play equipment.which was
purchased last year and then delivery of the main structure is anticipated
the first week of September with completion by either late September or
early October of that piece. And if you recall, the conflicts which
occurred there would be Community Development Block Grant people. We did
not include installation of that piece of handicapped equipment into that
contract or we would have to abide by very stringent wage controls and to
tack that onto our package, bid package would have been very difficult so
we went ahead and took the installation on ourselves. Tennis courts have
been repaired. They're complete. They're being practiced on by the Middle
School JV tennis group for the last two days. The public has been calling
daily to get back on the courts. They're in excellent condition and should
service this area well for.8 number of years. And then the south area,
.....",
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 31
"....
again I went over that somewhat. They're nearly complete. The change in
appearance of that area, if you haven't been up there is just dramatic.
The play value and the lack of the mess and the mud and those types of
things is quite remarkable. That is the area which they are repairing that
portion of retaining wall which we required them to do.
HERMAN FIELD PARK.
Hoffman: The clearing and grubbing stage is now complete. Grading will
commence very shortly. I have not heard back from the resident, the Lang's
who are quite concerned about the initial shock of seeing that much
vegetation taken out of that area for the installation of that access road.
In walking the area with them, they are reassured that we are not outside
of our boundaries and all the things that are being done up there are what
they understood through their involvement in the public hearings and those
types of things so I've not heard from them since those initial reactions.
LAKE ANN PICNIC/RECREATION SHELTER.
Hoffma n:
site A as
They were
that? We
Last night at the City Council meeting, City Council approved
shown in the attachments which were mistakenly put in here twice.
installed in the...section as well. Are there any questions on
can address those after my report.
CURRY FARMS PARK.
~ Hoffman: Scheduled improvements to Curry Farms included a play area
expansion, installation of ballfield backstop and an aggregate infield and
installation of bituminous walkway. As stated, all those work functions
are in progress. They had an earth mover in there to strip out the trail
and apply the aggregate and will be doing the bituminous in short order
when they do some other work within the city.
SUNSET RIDGE PARK.
Hoffman: It's in the evolution stages. The grading. The major portion of
the finished grading is completed using city crews and rented equipment.
The diagram which I showed you on some of those changes may take on a
slightly different look as a result of the recent grading activity out
there which showed a whole new view of that park from which we ini~ially
had when we first walked that and advocated these changes. In fact, one of
those play items, either the volleyball court, play area or the tennis
court will potentially move down into the lower portion of the park where
the play area was initially shown. The play area does fit very nicely in
the relocated area shown. It sits up on top of the hill which is visible
from all areas of the park and visible from a majority of the adjoining
property owners. That low area would be very conducive to possibly the
sand volleyball court...being the case of a severe rain in that area, it
becomes somewhat saturated. That particular facility will not be hindered
in that regard. So I'll keep you up to date on the park master plan.
Again we want to keep Mark Koegler and the people at Van Doren-Hazard
informed so we can bounce those ideas and changes off of them. The park is
really in an exciting stage. It's evolving daily and once the finished
grade is in, there will be restoration work, installation of infield
,.......
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 32
aggregate, staking out of the play areas and then final restoration ~
including seeding and potentially mulching of the area. Any questions on
any of the updates or any of the particular park activity which is
occurring?
Robinson: This is a nice little summary.
appreciate that.
A nice little update. I
Hoffman: You're welcome.
Andrews: It's exciting to see all this stuff going on. It's very
rewarding to see results of all these meetings.
schroers: Maybe since we're on this subject, it may be an appropriate time
to mention the $1,200.00 that we allocated to the city of Victoria for the
completion of that section of trail which borders Chanhassen as it goes
from Excelsior to Victoria has been completed. I rode my bike on it on
Sunday and it was wonderful. I think anyone that is interested in a nice
little bike ride or a walk or whatever should try it.
Pemrick: Where do you pick it up?
Schroers: You can pick it up on the west end of Excelsior at one point.
There's one parcel missing in this trail now and that is through the city
of Excelsior so if we have somehow an opportunity, some kind of leverage or
some kind of opportunity to work with the city of Excelsior to get them to
finish the portion that runs through town, you can go all the way from east
of 494 on a trail with no traffic all the way out to Carver Park and
there's a sput that adjoins Carver Park's 7 mile paved trail. You can make
an all day trip with that or just do short portions. It's really nice and
I think we should feel good about our part in completing that section.
.."
Hoffman: Thank you for bringing that up Larry. I also received one call
from a landowner up there who is somewhat distressed that the city of
Victoria was placing signs saying no horses. Obviously he wanted to use it
for a horse trail and he was questioning why they were posting that on the
city of Chanhassen property. As we've gone through, that is not the case.
So he was happy to receive a clarification on that but that is just a taste
of what we'll deal with on the south trail alignment as you see in the
Adminstrative Packet the correspondence going back and forth to the city of
Eden Prairie. We could get into this cat and mouse situation where we're
going to wait until what they see right now. They're saying they're going
to wait until they see what we do so we're going to face that issue and
whether or not we end up with pedestrians and bikes on top of the 'hard
surface and then take the extra expense to accommodate horses alongside
through clearing and the necessary grading to make that area accessible or
if we mix the whole use or if we exclude hor~es, that's a debate which is
yet to be tackled later this year.
Lash: On the south playground Todd, is all of the equipment that's coming,
is that there and in? I was up yesterday and just drove through the
parking lot. That's it?
....""
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 33
"....,
Hoffman: The $10,000.00 bought that green and tan piece which is there
installed.
Lash: Then I had a question on, you said that the Council approved Site A.
What was the, it says there was a hold up because Mayor Chmiel had some
concerns?
Hoffman: The major question I believe he had was the building serves two
different uses. One is to service the beach but then you have to balance
it with the group picnic reservation site. It's just a matter of
circumstance and then the layout of the park. If you had the best of both
worlds, you'd like to have it close to parking yet close to the beach.
Obviously that cannot occur so what it came down to is we cannot sacrifice
accessibility for the mere convenience of not having to walk that extra 150
200 feet from the beach to get to a restroom. You still will pass by the
building both on your travel to the beach and then on your exit.
Lash: So his main concern was that it was too far from the beach?
Hoffman: Correct.
Schroers: Anything else on Capital Improvement updates?
COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS.
Andrews: I've got two real tiny little minor points. North Lotus Lake
JI""" Park, I noticed now that both volleyball nets are gone. I don't know if
they were both stolen, I assume.
Ruegemer: Earlier this summer one was stolen.
Andrews: That's last week because they were up there playing over the
weekend and then it was gone. The other point and this was just again a
minor point. The tennis courts are just now in the early stages of
cracking. I don't know if this is something where it would be easier to
fix it now before it gets. I know they're pretty new and they are still in
very good shape but there are a few cracks developing near the playing
surface of the court that perhaps some pretty minor maintenance could stop
it before the water gets in there and freezes and really rips it apart.
Hoffman: Jerry brought up the nets today and we discussed it. We'll
probably try to limp along and make it through the rest of the year.
Andrews: I think if they're being stolen as it is, I think we had one
stolen last year if I remember correctly. Maybe we have to put up a sign,
if you want a net call City Hall and reserve one but I don't think we
should provide nets for people to take.
Hoffman: We're going to attempt to mark them sufficiently and see if that
deters them. If it does not.
Schroers: How are they installed? Are they just tied up with the normal
strings that come with them? We have entwined plastic coated cable around
along the top of the net. Looped it through the eyebolt and bolted it with
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 34
U bolts. Clamped it and it's like, if they want to steal that net they've ~
got to have at least a heavy duty wire cutter.
Andrews: That would not detract from the level of play that goes on either
so.
Schroers: As a matter of fact it actually reinforces the net and keeps it
stiffer and straighter across the top so it's not a bad idea.
Andrews: It's real disappointing living in a neighborhood to see those
stolen. It's not from the people in our area but I think it's people who
drive in, use it and then decide that'd be a nice net to take home.
Pemrick: What is going on on Bandimere? They dug up the whole grass. Are
they planting new or seeding?
Hoffman: Giving the field a better crown so it drains much better. We had
requests from mainly the soccer folks to try and fix some low lying areas
which held quite a bit of water. They attempted to do that in just a patch
work fashion and it did not work very favorably so we had excess fill
material. Aquatic soil so this fall when the field was not being used they
went ahead and tore it up and put that material in there and redistributed
it and put a better crown on the Bandimere Park.
Lash: I have a question, down at Greenwood Shores on Sunday I saw a
suspect looking survey stake in the ground. Kind of in the middle of
everything. 00 you have any idea?
Hoffman: Was there a location stake and then a flag stake with orange?
....",
Lash: Yeah, with orange flag and then there was another one next to it.
Hoffman: I believe Dale has staked out the location for relocating trees.
I will confirm that and if it was something different.
Lash: Just made me nervous.
Schroers: Thought it may be a tether stake for my dog.
Lash: And then I just have a comment on last month's meeting. This is one
of those after you leave and you think about what happened and you wish you
had said something that you hadn't thought of at the time. When I reread
it in the Minutes my frustration was that it came back again and I guess it
was the comments from the gentleman from Lundgren Bros.. What was his
name?
Hoffman: Terry Forbord.
Lash: Okay. And although I did vote to go along with the recommendation in
that situation, it really gets to me when developers come in here and say
to us, well if you make us give park property it's going to pull a plug on
the whole thing and we're not going to be able to do it and we can't
develop the property and like it's a threat to us.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 35
'"
Pemrick: Jan, I struggled with that for a whole week after that meeting
too. I was bothered all week about that.
Lash:
for the
myself.
we must
to pull
this.
That just frustrates me no end because our end is to do what's best
people and to make sure we get what we need and I feel intimidated
When developers say those kind of things right away I go, oh goll
be asking for the moon and we'd better just back off or he's going
the plug. Well we shouldn't really care if he pulls the plug on
Schroers: No, that's his problem.
Lash: Right and I've heard that before and it just really gets to me and I
buy into it almost every time and I get angry with myself and then I go
home and I whip myself for it and I just want to make the point that I
think we need to be careful when they come in and they do that that we
don't feel intimidated to sellout just because it may make their life
miserable.
Andrews: I didn't get that reaction at all. Just the opposite. I sensed
that was more like he was saying it, telling us like it is for our
informaiton but it didn't hit me the way it hit you.
Hoffman: Obviously they're making more money on the deal than that lot or
those two lots would cost so it's not like it's breaking their bank but
it's lowering their profitability on the deal so they're going to argue
~ hard for it.
Lash: And I was glad that you made the comment that you did and that's
what kind of got my will's going a little bit too. You know that at least
I got the impression that you don't feel the intimidation when they say
those kinds of things to you. You don't buy into it.
Hoffman: Excellent pep talk for next meeting on the next site plan review.
Do your homework.
ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS:
OKTOBERFEST.
-Ruegemer: Okay, just an Oktoberfest update here. Oktoberfest is scheduled
for Saturday, September 28th. That will take place from 4:00 until 11:00.
We changed the dates this year versus being on Friday night and bring that
back from 12:00 midnight to 11:00. The participating people this year will
be basically the same as last year. The Lion's operating the concession
area. As far as all the typical German style foods. The potato salad,
polish brats, sauerkraut. And they will also be serving pop and beer.
Also the Rotary this year will be operating the Rotary Bingo again. We'll
get a tent for them down along Coulter Drive again. And the Snowmobile
Club will also be displaying snowmobiles as well as their groomer this year
again. Also they will be providing the games again which seemed to be real
popular last year. Adventure Balloons were still hoping that they can get
their display off the ground this year versus 4th of July when they had
most favorable weather for a demonstration so hopefully that will get
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 36
underway this year for Oktoberfest. Also a new addition will be the
Chanhassen city staff selling sliced caramel apples...
Andrews: Will you be selling 4th of July shirts too?
(There was a tape at this point in the discussion.)
Robinson: But we had a Lion's Club meeting last night and Gary Boyle is
Chairman of this Oktoberfest and he specifically said 5:00.
Ruegemer: I was in to talk to Gary about that.
Robinson: Oh, do you talk to him periodically? Otherwise I can give him a
call.
Ruegemer: I'll contact Gary just to clarify the misunderstanding on that.
Robinson: Okay, thanks.
Rugemer: Are there any commission questions about Oktoberfest?
SUMMER DISCOVERY PLAYGROUND EVALUATION.
Rugemer: Okay with that we'll move on to item b on the agenda. This is
the annual summer discovery playground evaluation. As you can see it's a
very informational tool as far as looking at the Wing program, the Super
Event program and the summer story playground program as a whole and gather
information to improve on the program...quality program for next year. As
you can see, they go into all the types of arts and craft projects. Games
that were used this summer. You can see it's a long list of games. Then
there's the registration and it's broken down by park site. By tot-lot
which is age 3, 4 and 5. Dyna-Mites which is ages 6 thru 12 and that's
broken down. You can see the numbers in the report. It has numbers for
Wednesday Wing Dings is a program that's offered on Wednesday afternoons
from 1:00 to 2:00. Kind of the special event for the community to come in.
There's no charge or any cost associated with the Wednesday Wing Dings.
Just a special feature that we do offer for the community to come in and
enjoy some quality programming. And you can see the numbers associated
with that. Also the super events. With the different trips that we did
offer and with these numbers they may appear to be low but we did
co-sponsor with Chaska so we did really max out at every trip. We set our
maximum amount of people at 35 and Chaska also did 35 and typically we drew
60 to 70 kids every trip so that proved to be successful this year. And
just as you go through the evaluations for next year. There are different
numbers here and I don't know if you have any questions on those but those
are certainly recommendations that we will take into account. As far as
developing the program for next year and also I'd like to mention the
possible format change of the program. Instead of keeping it an hour for
the younger kids and an hour and a half for the older, for the Dyna-Mites,
the format will possibly be changed to 2 hour, 2 1/2 hour. That kind of
format and have quality time for both the Dyne-Mites and the Tot-lot
program all at one site at the same time. So that will be, certainly take
a look at it. We did have evaluation to every person that was registered
for the Tot-lot and Dyna-Mite programs. That number is back on the back
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 37
,,...
portion of this report. You can see the 137 evaluations were sent out and
47 were returned for a 34% return rate which is a pretty decent percentage
of being returned so we get kind of a true sense of what people are
thinking about the program and what types of comments they did have and we
can certainly take a look at that to improve the program for next year. So
basically it looks like people were very much in favor of the format
changes as far as convenience of having both children in the same. If they
do have multiple children, having people at the same location at the same
timeframe. They think that's more convenient. Even with the format
change, even with the cost associated with that, it seems that it will
still be fair if the cost of the program did go up slightly. People would
be in favor of that. So are there any questions of people looking or
commission members looking through the annual report, are there any
specific questions or comments?
Lash: Well I think these are great. That we provide this and I know it's
a lot of work for you guys but in the summer it's great to have activities
for these kids to do. I know a lot of them get pretty bored. I would go
along with your suggestions of changing it for next year. Combining the
times. I think for people, I mean most people have kids that fall into
both brackets and then you've got to haul one up and drop that off and then
go home and then when you come back you drop the other one off and go home
and they're not there together so you're not really free to do anything
anyway. I guess I'm kind of curious as to if you have any ideas on ages.
Like how many 3 year olds you get and how many 12 year olds you get. My
daughter is 12 and she lost interest in Dyna-Mites several years ago and so
~ I'm thinking maybe we could.
Ruegemer: Break those down in like ages maybe 6 thru 8. 10 thru something
like that?
Lash: Yeah. And 3 seems kind of young but if people are coming with 3
year olds, I don't care but I had thought maybe if we broke it down 3 to 5,
6 to 8 and 9 to 12 or something like that. You could have your activities
and crafts more age appropriate. When I read in here 3 hours or something
it just kind of made me shiver because kindergarten's only 2 1/2 hours and
those kids are maxed out. 5 and 6 year olds at 2 1/2 hours. I think 2
hours for any of them is plenty.
Ruegemer: That was a pretty well the consensus as these evaluations came
back. The younger, the Tot-lot age group, that would be more than the
maximum time. They would like to see that cut down. This is just
basically used as an informational tool.
Lash: And I know I mentioned this to you privately Jerry but I would
really appreciate it and I know how much my children enjoyed the super
events and I really appreciated them having the opportunity to do those
things and I would like to see possibly maybe an age split on some of those
too. Where Chutes and Ladders is more appropriate for the younger kids and
then have things that are more interesting and appealing to Middle School
kids. I think kids 6 thru 8, grades 6 thru 8a lot of times just sort of
fall through the cracks. They're not old enough to drive to do anything
yet but they're not interested in going to Chutes and Ladders and some of
those kinds of things but there are things that they like to do so let's
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 38
see if we can get some things going for them. You said you were going to ~
check into it didn't you?
Ruegemer: Yeah and I'll get to that item in the next report here. We are
trying to, the Park and Rec Qepartment is trying to direct more, I guess
more time to that age category. We are developing a teen night out during
the school year and we're working with other agencies in the area to make
that a possibility so I'll discuss that when we get to the next report. So
just with the other information that did come back with the evaluations, a
lot of people would like to see the playground program extended from 6
weeks which it currently is to possibly 8 weeks or 9 weeks. Somewhere in
there to just kind of get into, take up more of the summer. Get the kids
more of an opportunity to I guess enjoy a better summer and have more
activIties to so that's something we will be looking at for next year too
is making that program longer and also adding more Wing Dings. Do you have
any additional questions on that?
Hoffman: The staff we had was very excellent. We had all three new staff
members this year so it was not a returning staff and both playground
leaders and the playground director performed very well and we do have the
opportunity to, the potential of having our playground director back next
year which would help.
RECREATION PROGRAM UPDATE.
Ruegemer: Item c is just a fall program update. What we will currently be
having here coming up. The Rocking and Rolling program was very popular
, last fall with the tumbling and balancing and somersaulting exercises we
did have. We will be moving that from the Old Village Hall to the
Chanhassen Elementary School which will provide more space and accommodate
more people. And basically we have a lot of the same programs we had last
summer with additions to like the Karate/Tae Kwon Do class that we offered
this summer. We will continue that on into the school year to try to
attract more increased class participation. We have the annual Halloween
party coming up here and I just want to touch on what we had mentioned in
the last item here about the Teen Night Out. That's currently an item that
we're working with Galen Madsen down at Community Education and Wendy
Shitzel with Chaska Park and Recreation. We did have a meeting prior to
this date here to discuss a type of Teen Night Out. What kind of
activities it would... We're targeting these Teen Nights Out for Middle
School kids, grades 6 thru 8. We already have two dates already and
already have earmarked for these types of activities and one would be
Friday, October 25th and the second would be Friday, November 2nd. With
these two Teen Night Outs it's kind of a trial period just to see what type
of response we can get with this type of offering and just kind of see what
we can build on. what types activities these kids would like to do. So
it's kind of a trial period here. If they go well then we will continue
them throughout the school year. If not once a month, every other month so
it's just going to kind of, we'll advertise. It will be in the Midpoint.
The letter that goes out to the Middle School. It's going to be in there.
It's going to be in our City newsletter. It will be advertised in the
Chaska Community Center and so it will be a really good advertisement
program for this. Here's the activities that would be listed we would have
at the Middle School so we'd have access to the gym area and swimming area.
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27. 1991 - Page 39
.J1I""
We'd bring in videos and just have contact local merchants as far as
donating prizes and things like that so that's always quite popular is
prize giveaways and things like that. And we will have music and DJ's and
things like that...so just an opportunity to give the teens who are trying
to give them an opportunity to enjoy some activities also... Annual
Halloween Party, that will October 31st and that's always a very popular
activity.
Hoffman: StaTt planning your costume today.
Ruegemer: It just goes down the line here. We have activities for the
youth planned out here and also the adults. Kellogg's Hot Shoes aerobic
classes and things like that. Chaska's offering volleyball in their agency
will also be having the 5 on 5 basketball program. Offering a
co-sponsership between the Chaska Park and Recreation and Chanhassen Park
and Recreation so we've had meetings on that already so we will be using
the new community center for meetings and also Middle School on Wednesday
night so if anybody's interested in getting on the draft list or getting a
team together, you can contact me. So with the fall program update here, I
guess it appeals to a wide variety of age groups and hopefully people will,
the residents of Chanhassen will have an outlet to perform activities.
Schroers: I have a question Jerry. What's the difference between the
Monday Night's open gym and the Men's 5 on 5 basketball? Is that a league?
Ruegemer: Yes. The Men's Open Gym would be on Monday nights starting in.
,....
Schroers: And that's just pick-up?
Ruegemer: Yeah. Just pick-up Monday nights and all the way through March
and the 5 on 5, the regular structured league with games being played on
Wednesday nights.
Hoffman: Team registrations and registration fees and officials and that
type of thing. Monday night is strictly pick-up. One of the new programs
which Jerry just skipped over is the spin-off of one of Curt's requests.
Past requests and that the grades 9 thru 12 be addressed in an open gym
format. So we looked at a Friday night there for those high school aged
people. They can play basketball, volleyball. socialize at a charge of
$1.50 per night. With some foreplanning we'll go ahead and select a very
qualified candidate for the guardian or the attendant of that particular
evening since we will be dealing with very active and energetic group.
Lash: That was my parental type question that I was going to ask because
what are we providing for supervision for some of these things?
Hoffman: Very minimal access to the building and a person of college
and/or adult as supervisor.
Lash:
How about Teen Night Out? Are yoU getting volunteer chaperone~?
~~~~~:e~~hO~~rki~:tt~e;~:etrYing to target more for the parents of the
with the ideas of possibly out and. help supervise and we've also come up
contact~ng the Honors Society or the School
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 40
Council, things like that. In talking with...we're trying to gather more ~
information on that... Really anybody, we're going to try to keep with
more the parents. It seems like if you're having high school superv~s~on
it can get out of hand sometimes too but that remains to be seen. We are
trying to get this initial Teen Night Out to be a very successful...so we
can build a successful program throughout the school year.
schroers: Very good.
here?
Any comments on anything that Jerry's gone through
Robinson: What was the question?
Lash: I was interested in one of them for my daughter.
Hoffman: It may be a good time just to go ahead and bounce that off.
We're somewhat unique in all the Park and Recreation registrations are
handled through our front desk and then we make use of that pool for our
support staff and many Park and Recreation agencies have their own
registration clerk type secretary and we just feel our current arrangement
serves very well for our department and foresee continuing to use that type
of style.
Schrores: Well thank you for all your information Jerry.
Andrews: I've got one more thing for Jerry I guess, if you're interested
in doing something. If you're interested in trying to coordinate a ski
trip for your teen night out, I could help you do that at Hyland HUls.
I've worked there and can help you make the arrangements there if you want -'
to do that. It's a good time.
Lash: That was successful last year wasn't it?
Ruegemer: Yeah. We made two trips last year. Not to Hyland but to.
Hoffman: Afton and Mt. Kato.
Ruegemer: And the buses were pretty much maxed each time so we had roughly
70-75 people each trip.
pemrick: I'll be a chaperone.
Rugemer: Okay, we'll put you down. And they were quite successful. We
were looking at at least one or two more trips onto...
Schroers: Anything else?
AOMINIS1RA1IVE SEC1ION.
Schroers:
Any things of particular interest in the Administrative Section?
Lash:
I think we all just need to be prepared.
Andrews: On the horse trail?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
August 27, 1991 - Page 41
,..,.
Lash: Yes.
Andrews: From reading Eden Prairie's letter about their lack of success of
having a horse trail in the vicinity of other trails, it sounds like it's
something that everybody's going to push for but it will be real tough to
make it work.
Schroers: I guess I have some experience on that from building and using
trails a great deal. Horses are not all that compatible with other uses of
trails. I guess if there's enough respect and use to warrant it, I would
sure opt for a small trail on the side for horses rather than, if you go to
plan a day for a bike ride or a run or walk or whatever and you're tripping
over those horse prints all the time.
Andrews: And other horse, what horses do too.
Schroers: But actually the worst thing is what the horses do to the
surface of the trail. They really muck it up and tear it up and loosen it
up and it makes an undesireable surface for other things.
Lash: It was the horse people that brought this whole thing to our
attention you know so I know this is going to be.
Schroers: A controversial issue for sure.
Hoffman: We were informed of it prior to their bringing it to our
~ attention but they were the first group in the door to rally support.
Schroers: I think along a portion of the Luce Line they address that issue
but the railroad right-of-way is wide enough to allow both a decent like 8
or 10 foot wide aggregate type path for walking, running, bicycling,
whatever with enough room adjacent to that for a horse trail. We may check
with the City of Orono or Minnetrista in regards to their process leading
up to the decision because at one point in time it was just everyone use
the trail and then all of a sudden there was a separate horse trail. So
there were controversies and problems with having everything on the same
trail .
Andrews moved, Lash seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:59 p.m..
Submitted by Todd Hoffman
Park and Recreation Coordinator
Prepared by Nann Opheim
,....