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PRC 1990 03 27 ""'" ",.... "'" "\ PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING MARCH 27, 1990 Chairman Mady called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Mady, Curt Robinson, Larry Schroers, Dawne Erhart, Wendy Pemrick and Jim Andrews MEMBERS ABSENT: Jan Lash STAFF PRESENT: Lori Sietsema, Park and Rec Coordinator; Todd Hoffman, Recreation Supervisor; Jerry Ruegemer, Program Specialist and Mark Koegler, Consultant APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Robinson moved, Schroers seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated March 13, 1990 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Sietsema: Todd would like to make an introduction. Hoffman: I'd just like to introduce Jerry Ruegemer. This is Jerry. He's our full time 6 month person that will be here to help in the Park and Recreation Department. The position that was budgeted for as a part of the 1990 budget. Sietsema: So if you have any really ugly jobs, they go to Jerry. Mady: The wood duck houses at Pond Park need to be cleaned out. Sietsema: We've already got someone taking care of it. Robinson: So it's 6 months position is it? Hoffman: It started Monday. Well it started last Thursday. Jerry attended the softball meetings and started Monday morning on a full time basis through about the second week in September. Robinson: What are some of the things he'll be doing? Hoffman: Be working with adult and youth sports. All the special events. Just really giving us a break on some of the programming aspects so we can start working on some of the other things going on in the department. Robinson: Welcome. Ruegemer: Nice to be here. Thank you. Mady: We have fun. Usually anyway. DISCUSS RECREATION SECTION OF THE COMPREHENSIVE PLAN. sietsema: As you may recall in the past, two meetings ago we had Paul Krauss and Mark in here to talk about the Comprehensive Land Use Plan and to go over what changes the Planning Commission are talking about making. These revisions are still in a draft form but at that meeting we Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 2 """ had talked about how those changes would affect the recreation section of the Comprehensive Plan and Mark is here to go through how those changes do indeed affect the Plan. ~ Koegler: Let me start by just covering a couple things on the map. As Lori said, the Planning Commission has been going through a lot of discussion and been having some joint meetings with the City Council recently and have another meeting scheduled at the Planning Commission a week from tomorrow night to focus on the Land Use Plan so what you see may be subject to some change. However, I think the further we go, the more comfortable generally the Commission is. I think the Council basically concurred basically with most of the concepts they showed but there's some material on here related to Park and Recreation which does not show up graphically but I want to assure yoU will. It's things we've talked about. We talked about Bluff Creek. It's showing some of the corridors coming all the way down. We will be doing that on the next regeneration of this map which will probably occur prior to next Wednesday night's meeting so those have been noted and taken into account. They're simply not shown yet graphically on the map. When we get that map revision done, we do have a black and white version of this thing that we're producing now and making available and those will be sent over to Park Commission members as well. It's kind of hard to relate all the things we're talking about with parks when you're wondering well what's the land use in that area of town and so forth. Just to refresh your memory, I think the land use map is very self explanatory in terms of colors and types of development and so forth with the exception of these two gray areas. This 1995 study area. Those are just kind of areas that have been identified as sites that really it's been determined to be premature right now that those should be commercial or they should be residential or whatever. Given transportation improvements that are planned and some questions about sewer capacity, those have been labeled as 1995 study areas. The Comprehensive Plan Land Use Section which basically says right now we have insufficient information to identify those. We will work towards that prior to the year 1995. Those are tied in particularly on the northern one with sewer capacity issues. This one is tied in much more closely with the construction of TH 212 which is scheduled to be out to Lyman I think in 1996 or so if I remember right. So those have been put into that category accordingly and they will be updated within the next couple of years and that may, at that time, have some further park ramifications that you will get involved in. Since we met with you last, you did provide some general input which hopefully we will be putting into the text on some concerns you had. The river bluff area was one of the comments that I recall off the top of my head and some other things that we talked about. We also have gone through and updated the text so it reflects some of the additions to the park system that have taken place in the last few years and what impact those have had upon some of the programming and some of the recommendations that comes out of the park chapter. This is not your last shot at this tonight. We're not looking for a final recommendation from the Commission tonight because I think it's not fair to do that until we know we have a land use element that is in place. As I said in my opening comments, we're getting very close to that with the Planning Commission. We're getting very close to having a plan that's ready to go through a public review process which will involve informal public informational meetings at probably 3 or 4 sites scattered throughout the community and then going into a more formalized public hearing process. So we look for that to be happening probably in "....., ",... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 3 May and June. I don't know Mr. Chairman how you want to handle this. Whether you want to go through this page by page or if you just want to identify any comments. What we're looking for this evening is general comments that you have on anything pertaining to the text that you received. Topics that we missed. Things that are incorrectly stated. things you want stated in another way. Things you want reinforced. It's wide open. I guess I would emphasize this is your plan. That's a general statement because it's the City's plan but the Park Commission is specifically charged with creating and kind of keeping track of their recreation and open space chapter of the Comp Plan. The Planning Commission will be reviewing this but their review will only be to really see how it fits in the context of the rest of the community. We do not look for them to make changes to the section that you're basically putting together and that you put together in the past. So with that, however you want to handle it. If you want to just go through generally? ,... Mady: I guess I wanted to check with the commissioners first how each of they, what each of them went through it. If you'd rather we go through it page by page. I know I've made some notes from time to time in the thing as I was going through it and there's a couple areas I want to discuss that need to be emphasized or worked on. We can do that after we've gone through maybe page by page. That might be easier that way, if that's okay. I did have, anybody can jump in if you've got something early on. On page 12 under the Greenwood Shores Park. In the comment section it says, Greenwood Shores Park abuts both Lake Ann and Lake Susan. That should be Lake Lucy. Otherwise it's an awful big park. On that same page under Lake Ann Park, under facilities. Since we are budgeting and will be building a picnic shelter there this year, should we not just put that in right away? Sietsema: Under which park? Mady: Lake Ann Park. Andrews: Are there any other future structures beyond that point at this time? Mady: Outside of play structures, there's nothing else. Andrews: Okay. I noticed on the plan there was talk of boat rental with no facility provided to store boats or rent boats. I've been involved in Lake Phelan and their rental program and it takes considerable amount of room to move boats back and forth and store them and maintain them. Mady: I know we were discussing that previously with this structure. Is that anticipated in this structure Lori? sietsema: To store the boats in the structure? I don't know that we really have gotten to that level. We were talking about that specific item later on the agenda. I don't know that we have to address that in here. Andrews: Right now we're looking at broad concepts rather than specific? ,.... Sietsema: As far as storage on land, I think there's plenth of room there. ,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 4 Schroers: By looking at the floor plan, it didn't really look as through there was that type of storage space. Sietsema: No indoor storage for the boats, no. Mady: On the next page on 13 under Lake Susan Park I had. Sietsema: You might want to add also volleyball at Lake Ann. Hoffman: Soccer. Mady: Those are on the back side on page 13. But under Lake Susan, similar comments having to do with the update of this. We should reflect the new items that we'll be adding this year. Schroers: I had a question Mark. Chanhassen has anything to do with Minnesota Valley National Wildlife lines were going to be for that? I was wondering if the City of input in regards to the boundary of the Refuge. Who decided where the boundary ",.... Koegler: Lori and Todd probably have information on this also but to my knowledge in the time that I've been involved with the City, the City has never been formally asked to supply any input at all. There have been public informational meetings in the past to portray what the master plan presents and what it hopes to achieve. I believe through the office down there, they have a plan available that identifies not only what they include within the refuge itself but how they intend to acquire some of the parcels. Some of them are by fees. Some are by easement. Some are just by various types of controlling interests and then they correspondingly have the facility plans too but I'm not familiar that the City ever has been asked or has supplied any input on either the boundaries or the facilities within that park or refuge. Schroers: So we would need to contact the Federal agency in order to get information on that since it's a national and the State really has not that much to do with it either? Koegler: That's correct .but they do have a local office down there on site which certainly is the place to contact. That has been done in the past to obtain information on what their latest thinking was but probably the last time that occurred was a couple of years ago. But they do have staff here that I'm sure could respond very readily to any inquiries. Schroers: Okay, thank you. Mady: On page 30 in the trail section under the section along streets and the advantages section. The second and third item are identical. Readily identifiable route twice. Koegler: That's why they're so identifiable. "...... Mady: You really stress that. On page 32, park improvement bonds paragraph. It says that Chanhassen has not had a park bond issue since late 1960's when Lake Ann was built. We've had a couple since then. On page 38, existing park recommendation. Bluff Creek Park. You never really ,.. Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 5 talk about an access to Bluff Creek Park in there for recommendation. Since we haven't funded it yet nor found it, either the access or the park, we should at least address it in here I think. Koegler: By access are you talking about both pedestrian and vehicular? Mady: Yeah, getting there. Basically that. Page 48. Zone 4. We're discussing identifiable areas that need to be proposed new parks. The bulk of the paragraph talks about the new Curry Farms Park and we do say we need to locate something in Zone 4. We have spent considerable amount of time reviewing that area looking at Pheasant Hills and Lake Lucy Highlands area. If we could expand that somehow. I don't have any specific ideas on it but I would like to see it expanded since we have given considerable amount of thought to that area of the city. At least it should be reflected in the plan I would hope. Koegler: What are you latest thoughts in that regard? The last I knew you were looking at the Carrico site. ,..... Sietsema: Well Carrico is still a development that's being proposed by the developer and I think that they have a proposal in front of the Planning Commission right now. It will be coming to the Park and Recreation Commission at the next meeting. However the piece of property that we were looking at within their development. At one time we looked at the whole piece. Now we've scaled it back to a portion of the piece which includes a wetland area and if we can use additional. Enginee.ing looks like they're going to be needing a bulk of that 4 1/2 to 5 acre piece for drainage and there may be additional area again around it, the wet area that could be used as parkland but it's going to be minimal. Similar to what the outlots are in Pheasant Hills so it's not going to be a big piece. Mady: If we could somehow give it a little more emphasis in there that we're looking in that general area. I'm not sure how to do that but. Sietsema: The focus may have to be on the other side of, is it Galpin Blvd. ove. there? Mady: Yeah. 117. Sietsema: On the west side. 117. Schroers: We also looked at some private property over there also but decided that it we didn't have sufficient funds to consider it. Sietsema: Right. Because it's already platted property and the water and sewer's in. That brings the cost of the property up considerably for the small acreage is what the determination has been. ~ Mady: On page 50, under Lake Lucy. The first line states Lake Lucy is unsuitable for power boat use age because of it's depth, shape and associated aquatic vegetation. I'm not sure stating that lake is unsuitable is correct. There are about 5 power boats on the lake currently. I don't think any of us want to see that lake become a water ski haven but I don't think saying it's unsuitable is correct. ""... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 6 Schroers: I kind of like that terminology myself. Sietsema: It depends on what your overall goal for the lake is. If you eventually want to phase out of the power boats, this would be one way to do it is to continue to consider that unsuitable. We all are awar~ that access and clean-up of the lake goes hand in hand with what the discussion of what's going to happen on the lake. The recreational uses. Schroers: One of the problems with the lake was the sediment that floats around in the water and because it is so shallow, that they use of power boats on the lake definitely increased the amount of sediment that's in the water and contributes to poorer water quality. Mady: Oh yeah. I fully agree. Robinson: What is a power boat? What's classified as a power boat? A 5 horse? Schroers: Anything that runs on a gasoline engine. Mady: Yeah. I guess my personal opinion was that unsuitable was a pretty strong word for the lake. It's not ideal. It's not a good lake but I'm sure that I was happy with the word unsuitable. ",...., Robinson: I'd agree with you. I think if there's some on there, it's not the most desireable thing. Sietsema: You got a better word? Koegler: Well this language I think was a hold over from the previous plan. Really the heart of this takes place in the second paragraph because it goes on to say that this should be a natural environment lake and prohibition of motorized watercraft should be considered as it has been ena.cted on Lake Ann. So if unsuitable is a problem, that second paragraph is probably even more of a problem. Mady: I know that the neighborhood is working right now in that respect. I don't know what they'll use. I guess I can live with it either way. It's just since it's currently being used and I don't know that a goal has been set to make it a quiet lake. I know we discussed it a year, year and a half ago, whatever it was, with the Lake Lucy residents when we were looking at the total water clean-up of the 5 lakes and some of them were thinking of being able to prohibit power boats but there were a number of other residents who literally did not want to give up their power boats. Schroers: Basically it came down to the people that owned boats on the lake wanted to keep their boats and the majority of the other people that lived in the area favored the quiet lake aspect. ,..... Mady: I don't have I guess a feeling one way or the other. If staff or Mark has some ideas on that before the next time around, that'd be great. It's just something to look at. Next one on that page was on Rice Marsh Lake. Just a word that I didn't like in there. It just says Rice Marsh Lake is another water body which is suited for passive uses. I just don't like the word another in there. It's kind of, these are so chopped up in ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 7 speaking, I'm not sure where, another right after it talked about Lotus Lake. Lotus Lake is a lake that's suitable for. Christmas Lake is fine so another doesn't belong in there I didn't think. It doesn't refer to the previous paragraphs so it probably shouldn't be there. Some general comments I had on the Comp Plan. Just things that either weren't in there or need to be discussed maybe. First off, considerable effort has been pur forth in this City for a community center over the past 10 years. This is a recreation section of a Comp Plan for the City yet we don't spend one word on it. I don't think anyone would say that the City will not ultimately have one and probably with a time period shorter than 5 years so I think it should be addressed in the Comp Plan somehow. It doesn't need to be a large section but I think it should be mentioned that it's going to happen in the City. The other item I had was... schroers: What would you classify that under Jim? Where would you put that? Mady: Indoor recreation facilities I would guess. I'm not sure how other cities. . Schroers: Just under recreational facilities? Just add it there? ,.... Mady: Yeah. I would assume larger cities that already have them or are building or planning them have discussed it in their comp plans. I'm sure there's some boiler plate that can be stolen and massaged to fit into our situation. The last thing I had had to do with we're talking about standards. Number of acres per person. Per city. Per neighborhood park. Community parks. What have you. By reading through this thing you can draw the conclusion that Chanhassen has too many parks already and we'll have too many parks in the year 2000. We'll have too much parkland in the year 2010 because some of the standards that are being utilized. The plan does state that the standards may not be correct or do not reflect the actual needs of the City as we're experiencing them. I don't know if there's a way of doing it. I guess I don't feel I gave enough time and effort into this thing to really come up with something but somehow we have to maximize the idea that proper planning will include many, many, many more pieces of parkland of all different types and minimize the idea that 1 acre for 75 people, whatever it was, does not necessarily reflect what's actually taking place in this city. It's a standard that's out there maybe but I mean we're right now, according to the standard, we have too much parkland yet we can't put everybody where we want to put them. So the standard is obviously incorrect and'somehow if we can downplay that I guess I'd be happier. Schroers: I think the 90's being the decade of the environment will lend itself towards people being more receptive to additional parkland and open space. Mady: Anybody else have anything to go in. We can go through the whole thing again easily. ""'"' Andrews: Most of my observations were more detailed and you're kind of talking real broad strokes here. In the broad observations I guess I'm interested in acquisition or preservation of forested properties which is, as we all talked about, are once in a lifetime opportunities and I didn't "" Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 8 see much in there about any specifics about what we're doing in that area. I think to assume that the nature preserve is going to present that opportunity, it is a parkland that's beyond our control and beyond our jurisdiction and perhaps we should, I don't know. I'm not aware of what you specifically have done on that in the past but maybe you could bring me up to speed on that but I think it's important. The other thing I looked at was a lot of this plan, and it's just by the nature of the plan, deals with the active nature of the facilities and maybe there should be a little more discussion about the passive nature of the facilities as well as how our aging population will more than likely increase demands for passive facilities and simultaneously more than likely decrease active uses so do we have multiple use possibilities? Do we have conversion possibilities for our parklands? The last comment was, and this is on some particulars and this is just by observations while I was looking at some plans. A lot of these park plans are short of parking space for cars. When you look at softball fields. I looked at some of these drawings here and there were 6 parking spaces for a ballfield. Well if you've got an industrial league, you're going to have 26 cars there, not 6 and I don't know if that's something that's been addressed before or not. Erhart: Are those just neighborhood parks though where most people walk or will they be used for... ",.... Andrews: I was just looking at the plans that were attached to the Comprehensive Plan here and the parking was very minimal and not necessarily that close to a ballfield. I'm not sure if these park fields are intended to be used in leagu~s or not. That I don't know. Sietsema: The parking that you see in the neighborhood parks, i.e. the parks other than Lake Ann Park and Lake Susan Park, the rest of them are pretty much neighborhood parks. Again Lake Ann, Lake Susan and the south park that we just acquired will be considered community parks. The rest of these, it's assumed that the bulk of the useage will come from walk-in traffic and we've provided some parking for people from outside of the neighborhoods. These ballfields and these facilities are not intended to be used for league. Organized leagues use, in many cases they're way too small. They're for pick-up games and family games. Andrews: That's why I asked the question. Sietsema: Yep. That's the reason behind the fewer parking spaces in those areas. Mady: That brings up a thought and you mentioned Bandimere. The south park. In the Comp plan it's called Bandimere/Lake Riley Park. Is that the name we're going to use for it? Sietsema: The general consensus at the meeting when we talked about land names was to call it Bandimere Farm Park or Bandimere Park. ,.... Mady: Okay. Just so we can distinguish between that and what we've always known as Bandimere, I guess we called it Bandimere Heights Park. The little neighborhood park. I'd like to be able to really continue to be able to distinguish between the two parks because they do serve two different uses I think ultimately. .""'" Park and Rec commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 9 Sietsema: We discussed that and that point was brought up. It was generally, I think unless my memory is wrong but I think the decision was to go with the Bandimere name. Andrews: Are they adjoining properties? Mady: Yes. Sietsema: one par k . future. They're adjacent. And that may become just all one, known as If we want to change that, we can certainly do that in the Schroers: That's the impression that I had. That it was all going to be incorporated into the one park. Mady: My concern there is just that we were trying to stay away from the neighborhood park. The neighborhood itself. Sietsema: Right but we didn't want to take the neighborhood uses away from the existing Bandimere Heights Park. ,.... Mady: Right. Exactly. And ultimately there's going to be some overlap. We're going to have totlot equipment completely separately up in the south, community park from the neighborhood park. Maybe that's not such a bad idea calling it the Bandimere Farm Park because it does reflect Bandimere's and their efforts there. Sietsema: Bandimere Field and 8andimere Heights. Mady: It was just a comment. It's just something I noticed reading through it. Koegler: Do you want to keep those separate or do you want to roll them together and then identify on the text that there is a neighborhood component of that park? Mady: I'd like to keep them separate if we can. That way the neighborhood still has a section that's really their own. I'd hate to see us do too much to the neighborhood park and make it into all of a sudden into the community park facility. Erhart: There's a good natural break there too to allow it to remain. Mady: Yeah, the way it drops. Andrews: I'd like to also concur with what you said earlier about the standards that were used should not be considered necessarily standards that we feel are adequate for the City of Chanhassen. Mady: Any other comments for Mark and Lori? ,..... Erhart: I have one comment. Just to say that it's really exciting to see it on the map. The one area that I think is really unique to Chanhassen is the green area that we are going to extend down and I'd really like...when " Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 10 we are looking at so many active parks, that would really be a unique space for a passive area. Very beautiful along there. And that probably is most exciting to me. That area right there. Andrews: Which one are you referring to? Pemrick: The very bottom one? Erhart: Right above where it says 1995 study area. Where TH 212 runs along. There is a green strip there and Mark did say we were going to continue that on down. Andrews: Along the Bluff Creek area? Erhart: Right. Koegler: The other thing we hope to have in the final plan will be a land use map like this that not only will show all the parks but will have the trail network superimposed over the top of that and that would be a smaller scaled version. It will be in the recreation chapter so that anybody picks that up, it's very readily apparent that they may be looking at a piece of property out in the west end or the southwest end and that has a trail through it. ,..... Mady: One last thing that just came to me here. When we were discussing community park needs 3 or 4 months ago, what have you, we were talking about doing something in the western part of the City. Somewhere near the 41/5 interchange area. Maybe I missed it in here but I didn't think it was really brought out too well. I didn't spend a lot of time on this unfortunately but since that's a large amount of land we're going to be talking about, we might not be able to site it specifically but we should certainly have some good verbage. Sietsema: Strong recommendation in there. Andrews: That will be the likely development path. There's a large void there so. Mady: Yeah. That's why we want to make sure it's in there before the development happens so the developers coming in, they're going to see oh large park here. We have to plan around this. We can't just put houses allover the place or commercial sites or what have you. Andrews: That doesn't put much of a requirement on sewage or water. It could fit in the study area. Koegler: Those are the kind of lands that are easy to deal with because Metropolitan Council in their calculation of growth area and sewer units excludes parkland so you're absolutely right. Lake Ann for example. That land area does not count technically as Chanhassen's MUSA land. The MUSA being the Metropolitan Urban Service Area that defines rural versus sewered. ".... Schroers: Even when there are facilities in the park? I""'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 11 Koegler: Yeah, because they're, compared to normal residential flow for that amount of units on that property or an industrial flow situation, it's a drop in the bucket so to speak. One comment on standards. I first of all would agree. I think given the conclusions that you always come to that I think are reasonable. We probably need to de-emphasize that section a little bit because it's not all that supportive. We can't deviate too far though because there's a certain relationship between the standards the City has in this plan and the park dedication ordinances that dictate the amount of land that's required. There's some magic formulas there that probably Lori's the only person in the world that understands so there is some relationship there but I think we certainly can downplay some of the language. Sietsema: And I'm not going to share my wealth of information. Mady: Nor do we wish you to share it. Andrews: Maybe the point that can be made was instead of maintaining the ratio through dedication by developers, to look also at acquisition of sites that are more, of higher quality that as a commission could select rather than provide it through development. That'd be a way to work around that problem. Mady: Any other comments? Mark, do you have anything further you need from us? ,...., Koegler: No. The only other note that came to mind when you started talking about parklands. It's our intent that as an appendix to this, there will be a copy of every park plan that's been prepared so that that's part of the plans. So if somebody comes in who's thinking of moving into a neighborhood and they want to see what's in the Comp Plan, they also can see what's planned for the neighborhood parks that they're looking at moving next to. So that will be a component of that too and I just threw in a couple of representative examples because I happen to have reductions of those handy so that will be part of the final also. Mady: Otherwise, there's a lot of work into this thing. Robinson: Boy there really is. It is comprehensive. Schroers: What I was thinking the whole time going through it was, I was pretty impressed with it. Erhart: I was too Larry. Koegler: Well we'll bring some reV1Slons back to you and if there are any changes in land use that have an impact on anything that we've discussed, those will come back to you obviously as well. Mady: Thanks Mark. DISCUSS PLANS FOR LAKE ANN PARK COMMUNITY SHELTER. "..... Mady: We've only been talking about this for 5 plus years and now it's going to happen. ,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 12 Andrews: I've got questions on this one too. Maybe they're obvious questions but since I'm new, you're going to have to an~wer them. Mady: We'll let Lori give her staff report and jump in. ,.... Sietsema: Well as you indicated, this has been a dream of the commission since I think before I even started with the City 6 years ago. And we have applied for a LAWCON grant funds to fund a park shelter that would be built into the hill down by the turn around area of the park that would include a community room, picnic area in the upper level with a fireplace with a concession stand and restrooms in the lower area that could also be a concession area but also be the place where you go to pay your money to rent boats if we were ever to have boat rental out there. The plans are shown are what we have done to date are shown in your packet and there aren't any boat storage areas. There are some general storage for concession and that type of thing. Again changing rooms, bathrooms and then the upper area, picnic area. Because this item was never really competitive under the LAWCON grant standards, last year Sue Gunderson informed me that it was a waste of our time and effort to keep submitting LAWCON grant application to fund this because it just was never going to be funded. And so the last year the Park and Recreation Commission recommended and the City Council approved a budget that would have $100,000.00 which 2 years ago time was the cost estimate for the structure. So we are ready to go forward to fund this. What we need to do is say is this indeed what we want? Do we want to make changes? Do we want to make it bigger? Do we want to make it smaller? Now we need to get down to brass tacks. I'll open it up for your comments. Koegler: If I could Lori, just a couple other comments. This was put together as part of the packet to try and secure the money to do it and when you undertake that effort, you kind of treat the front end fairly casually sometimes and I think it's probably what's happened here. If I recall correctly, the Park Commission did supply some general input on these are the kinds of things we should have. Nobody probably ever though really has looked, and that's what we need tonight I think are some of the programming details. We've got a picnic area identified. What kind of groups are we talking about? How is that going to be used? That will obviously have some impact on the size and the type of space. Same thing with the lower levels. It's been envisioned that there'd be some concessions. Some rental area maybe in the future. The changing areas and so forth. How do you see those being used? How many people do you want to accommodate there? What's minimum amount of facilities that will be needed? Those are the kind of issues I think we need to get at tonight. It's our intent then to bring back to you some revisions starting in sketch form with some cost estimates which may obviously cause you to change a few more things. Normally that's making them a little smaller but who knows, this may be the exception. So it's that kind of thing. ,..., Sietsema: I think that Todd will have a lot of input on this. He's our facility scheduler at this point in time. He schedules the big group picnics out at Lake Ann. He knows what is requested most often out there and what the needs are I think as well as anyone so I'm sure that Todd's going to have some ideas. Bigger. Bigger. Bigger. I don't know if you want to do that now or later. ".... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 13 Hoffman: Later. Andrews: My comments would be. I've been active with the Red Cross sailing program at Lake Phelan for about 3 years, 3-4 years and my only observation is boy, you end up needing a lot more space than you think you do because your programs expand and new things are added. They do have a boat rental operation operating out of a lower level of a similar structure that's shared with the Red Cross and with the city parks of St. Paul. I think if you're envisioning any kind of a boat operation, it would require doubling of the size of this building which would probably be cost prohibitive to consider building it at this time. It's also a problem with logistics of the boats. You'd like to have them at water level to use but in order to deliver the boats to the site on a property with a grade then you need to have a delivery ramp or a road to get them down to the water level too so I guess if you're, I think it's a good use of a lake to have a program like they have on Lake Phelan. It attracts a lot of people and I think sailing programs or swimming programs or canoeing programs are attractive programs that I think are good for community involvement so I'm not saying that I don't like the plan. I guess I'm saying that perhaps if those are things that you'd like to do, that would require a separate structure or a structure that's not affordable at this time. "",.... Mady: One of the things we could do is, if we find that we need more, is in the design of the structure. You just simply build it so that it's easily added onto in the future. Andrews: I think I'd rather see something like this built than having a wish list that we could never achieve. This is a nice facility but literally the boat storage area at Lake Phelan is larger than the entire ground area of this building and it's not big enough. They've got several aluminum fishing boats that are used as chase boats. They've got canoes. They've got sailboats. They've got sailboards and it's literally crawling over each other to get these things in and out of the water for various programs and it's a fairly well laid out building so I guess I agree that I think that that would be something that should be considered as a future construction need rather than current. My other question would be concerning the dock. We're looking at a concrete pier or something that's taken out over the winter or what sort of thing is envisioned there? Mady: I think initially the way it looks Todd, this is the dock that the Jaycees donated that's on here? Hoffman: That would go to this .site? Mady: Yeah. Sietsema: This dock was never defined as much more than a regular T dock. I don't think anybody really got to that point. ".... Andrews: Obviously with water levels changing like they have been lately, that's a good guess as to where you should build the dock. It doesn't do you much good if it's 100 feet from water but, that's the way it's been lately. The only other thing I noticed on the plan was, if we are providing a lakeside facility, there is virtually no storage space noted ,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 14 here for supplies as well as no first aid area which if you're going to provide a lakeside facility, I think you're respo~sible, you ought to have at least a small area where first aid supplies could be stored or kept. Schroers: Do yoU have some specifics in mind already as to what types of programs you're going to run out of there? Is it going to be a basic fishing boat/canoe type thing or do you envision expanding into sailboards, smaller sailboats and that sort of thing? ,.... Hoffman: Again, any of those types of in depth studies or calculations of what would b.e operated out of there are premature at this time. I think Larry, you could probably give some insight to the commission here this evening on operations that are taking place at Hennepin Parks which I also have limited exposure to in the past. As far as a boat rental or canoe rental operation out of a facility like this, if you had the space available to store the paddles, the life jackets, that type of thing and check out the paddle boats or the canoe through the front desk operation and then stored the canoes or the paddleboats in another maintenance building during the winter, that would be a very feasible operation so you could enter into that type of use with this building by not having to include that extra space for all the storage of those paddleboats or all that equipment. I think that use would be very popular on Lake Ann because of the non-motorized use that is there. I think we'd be selling ourselves somewhat short if we didn't enter into this first phase without some kind of provision for both the boat rental and as noted the lifeguard station or first aid station in this facility. Andrews: One comment I'd make about the sailing program because that's the one I'm heavily involved with, they put through about 450 people a year on Lake Phelan in that program. It's a super good program. It gets people involved into a new sport that's low impact on the environment and a very rewarding and you don't need a large lake for that. We run 10 sunfishes at a time and 1 chase boat and run about 10 sections, or more than that. About I forget the number but about 400 people a year which is a nice program but it does take a lot of storage space and you can't, you need secure storage space on the lake that's very convenient in order to make it work because so many programs are after work programs where you're only dealing with limited sunlight. In June there's no problem but when you're getting into late August and you have to be in the water by 6:00 and be out of the water by 8:30, you have to have a good facility to make it work. That's important to really consider that. Schroers: I agree with what Jim is saying that storage and security is very important when you get into the sailboats, sailboards, that type of thing. However, my experience tells me that most park operations feel that storage for boats and canoes and rental property is for the most part cost prohibitive. Therefore, they opt to have programs with fishing boats, canoes, and aluminum type paddleboats that can be in the off season stored in a compound area. Somewhere that is secure but does not have to be inside a building. The aluminum products weather very well. It really doesn't hurt them at all being in the out of doors and I know for a fact that we store a lot of our boats and canoes outside. JiI"" Andrews: There's not the vandalism potential with canoes and aluminum boats like there is with the sailboats which is a definite problem. ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 15 Schroers: Right. But that is one way of making a smaller park system like we have here in the municipal situation. We can make a facility a little bit more affordable by limiting ourself to what we get into but perhaps leaving an option for expansion at a time that we could justify it. Koegler: If anything, I guess we need to end up with a plan that has flexibility because when this was originally penned and I think probably going back to the time that the 1980 Comp Plan was put together, at that time Leech's Resort was still in existence on Minnewashta and there were a number of people that from time to time would say, the City should acquire Leech's if that ever becomes available because you could have a little boat rental deal there and supply boats for people to use the lake. Obviously that never happened and I think to a certain degree that carried over here and said well maybe someday we'll want to rent some kind of boats. I think at that time it was envisioned to be canoes. It would probably be on racks outside or the paddlewheel type boats just for people to enjoy for half an hour or whatever. But you're bringing up some good points. The sailing and the sailboarding and those kind of things that are real popular, maybe we need to be able to do some kind of a mirror image construction in the future that would allow cheaper storage space but storage space nonetheless for seasonal use if not off season use. Jf/II"". Mady: I'm going to switch gears a little bit on this item and ask Todd a couple questions on the structure itself with respect to picnics because I think that's, at least early on, one of the main focuses of this building was covered space for group picnics. And Todd, what kind of numbers are we talking about? Should we be looking at? Hoffman: For a number? Mady: People. Hoffman: People? Participants? Generally we've split the picnic locations at Lake Ann into two sites. Calling them parkview which would be the upper hill portion or the walkout portion to the top side of this building, and then lakeside which would be directly in front of it. Parkview we take registrations up to groups of 400 people and the normal size for a picnic up there is anywhere from 150 to probably right around 300 people per group in that area currently. The number of picnics per summer in that size group would probably range from approximately to 20 to 25 groups in that particular location. Lakeside, we book anywhere from 40 to 150 people in that location. We book somewhat fewer groups there. 15 to 20 groups per year probably and those are beginning to book up. We've probably received 15 reservations already for this year starting May 5th and going all the way through the month of September. Schroers: Is this entire top level enclosed? Koegler: Yes. """ Schroers: And will it lend itself to other things besides picnicing? Would groups rent this for meetings? For renunions? Koegler: Yes. ,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 16 schroers: For seminars? Andrews: Is it a heated building? It's not a heated building is it? Mady: That's a question I had. It'd be wise to construct it so that in the future it could accommodate sledding parties. Things of that nature. It doesn't necessarily need to be heated immediately. One of the things we need to maybe look at is, in the initial go around, is making sure we construct enough covered space and then in the future work at putting in glass in the front. Maybe we just put screen in the first, or not even screen. It's just open with a railing. In the future you work towards solid walls and glass and heat and things of that nature but just simply having a roof over your head on those days when the weather is kind of iffy and you get your picnic 3/4 of the way started and then all of a sudden it starts to drip, you want to be able to at least do something on the inside. ,.... Schroers: I think it's kind of important to really try to designate or pinpoint the use. If you want it to be strictly a picnic facility or if you want it to be an all around general rental facility because there are other things in the area that you're going to be competing with and people are used to a standard and they're going to be looking for certain things when they come to rent the space. I see this on almost a daily basis. People come into our facilities and they look around and they say, how many coffee pots can we plug in? How much audio visual can we set up? Do you have any built in speaker systems? I mean they're looking for a lot of things so I think it's real important that we decide exactly how we would like to use this facility and then it has to be set up accordingly in order to compete with what else is available in the area. And also maintenance should be a big consideration. You would like to provide the facilities that people would want and yet try to keep it simple and uncomplicated in terms of maintenance because that can really kill you. The cost of upkeep. People come in with large groups. Carpeting is going to last like no time and are you going to plan ahead and budget for carpeting or is there even going to be any carpeting? Is there a more practical type of floor cover to use and there's really a lot to consider. Koegler: When this particular drawing was put together, the use of the facility at that time was envisioned to be obviously for picnics. It was billed as being kind of a seasonal community room. That if a neighborhood wanted to meet or somebody wanted to meet and couldn't find space available, this could be used for that purpose. It had conceptually at least a large fireplace in the middle of it that was meant to be used in the wintertime as a kind of stop over for cross country skiing. That was kind of the limited range of the way it was envisioned being used. You raise a lot of good points Larry in terms of where will you go from there. If you have community activities, you need certain levels of lighting. You need some electrical service available and so forth and do you need heat? Those are I guess some of the issues that we need to get at the heart of. How do you think this building or how do you want this building to be used? " Schroers: We get 3 phone calls a day. It's too hot. It's too cold. The people upstairs are roasting. The people downstairs have their coats on. I'm telling you. It can really get to be something so that's what we had envisioned in the beginning too was that we were going to have an outdoor ",.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 17 recreation center and kind of keep it pretty simple. The kind of place that people could come in with muddy boots on and that sort of thing but then you sort of get into the construction phase. I think what happened with us was that we had formed a kind of a mental image that this was just going to be kind of, that our facility was going to be something that's not real well defined but when the planners and the architects and everybody got a hold of it, it turned into a showplace. Now we have people coming in with mud and stickers and things allover them into a nice fancy facility and to try to keep it looking that way is really a lot of work. Erhart: I don't think ours is going to be too fancy at $100,000.00. Andrews: I think my ideas and...about the boating and so forth, I think if you look at the existing assets that are already there and how could we spend money that could provide the most value added to those assets that we already have, then I think the picnic facility probably would. Not a boat rental facility at this time. The question about the heat would be if we're, I guess to go a little further on that, if we're going to have a fireplace to provide heat upstairs, does that provide enough heat to keep the pipes from freezing downstairs? At this point, all I. can say is frozen pipes could be a very expensive maintenance item on a reoccurring basis. Schroers; Generally you drain the system at the end of the season. You just shut it down and you drain everything so that there is nothing to freeze. ~ Koegler: That was the intent here. That the system would be drained during the winter months. Bear in mind this building was titled, and I think appropriately at that time, a picnic/recreation shelter. It was basically a glorified picnic shelter. It was not meant to be a community center by any means. So I think Larry's comments are very appropriate. If it's intended for people to be able to comfortably come in there and use the space and not have to worry that they were in their own living room or something. Didn't want to track into the carpet. Schroers: You can lean your skis up against the wall and not leave smudge marks. Robinson: Would there be any revenue producing from this facility? Hoffman: The upstairs picnic area, yeah would be reserved on a fee basis. Robinson: Concessions possibly? Schroers: Well how extensive are you thinking in terms of the concessions? ".... Sietsema: Nobody has defined any of those program levels. It's such a conceptual thing that they said, well you know it'd be nice if it could accommodate cross country skiers in the winter and picnicers could get out of the rain in the summer and it'd be nice to have bathrooms and it'd be nice to have a concession area. Well maybe we might want to have boat rental there too. So we stuck it all in a plan and we really need to define whether we need to go through a brainstorming session or whatever, define what programming levels you want to see out of this building and then go back to the drawing board. Figure out how we're going to best put ,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 18 that building together and then figure out what the cost is. Right now, on just the sketch that you have, we figure it would cost rougly $100,000.00 but the area isn't big and the concession area isn't big and it's just some small bathrooms with room for changing into your bathing suit and a little bit of storage space. As far as the level of programming, it was never defined so that's really up to you what you want to see in there. Schroers: Depending on what you offer in the concession stand, the health department has some regulations that are absolutely unbelieveable. Saying the things that you have to do. Things that have to be stainless steel. Things that have to be 6 inches or 12 inches up off the floor and if you don't know this ahead of time, prior to construction, it can bust you. Koegler: The concession was looked at as being packaged food products in order to not deal with specifically health department requirements for kitches and ventilation and the whole bit. The typical range of snack foods plus maybe some of the microwave convenience kinds of items. Those kinds of things can be handled fairly easily without getting into elaborate kitchen facilities. So it's basically a packaged concession similar to what yoU find around some of the Minneapolis lakes. Erhart: What kind of a fee do you charge for renting out the space upstairs? Hoffman: Again, depending on what the facility would end up being... IfI""', Andrews: Obviously with a budget of $100,000.00 we can't provide all things to all people. ...facility with some conveniences I think is about all you can ask for $100,000.00. I think the whole k~y again is low maintenance and low impact of users. I think the comment made about would yOU want to come in to a carpeted facility with muddy feet is right on the money. You want a facility that gets you out of the rain but it doesn't have to be a motel. I think this is pretty much on target I guess but to keep those ideas in mind. Robinson: And like was mentioned earlier, designed so that it could be added on if we wanted to get fancy with it when we've got some more money. Schroers: Is it your intention during the operating season to have this building staffed during operating hours? Would there be someone in there? Hoffman: Yes. Sietsema: The concession area but not necessarily upstairs. Andrews: I guess the only comment I'd want to make is with the picnic shelter idea in mind and with this being a lake front facility, I again feel that a first aid/lifeguard area should be drawn into the plan. IfI""', Mady: A question for Mark. Are there any standards Mark for the number of square footage you should available for people in a picnic area? Should we be looking at, I'm thinking about sizing of the building. How much space does a 1,200 foot facility, how many people can we adequately accommodate in there and my gut feeling is, you get much more than 100 people in there and you're going to be real tight. ,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 19 Koegler: Yeah. I think you get half that number in there and that's probably going to be as many as you'd want to comfortably mingle with. I am unaware of any specific standards that for picnic purposes you need you know 8 square feet per person. It more is a subject of floor plan layout. What kind of seating arrangement you can get and then how much other open space you leave just for people to stand around so I think you can go at it from two directions. You can say we need to accommodate groups of 50 to 60 or you can say we want to build as much as we can with our budget and we'll get in as many as fit within that framework. That was kind of the way this was approached to say this is a reasonable amount of money. This is the space we can get for that amount of money. Correspondingly, we can get 50 people in there or whatever and that's where I think Todd's input comes in that if there's a target number that you consistently are going to be booking groups of 40 people or 50 people or whatever in here, we'd want to try to accommodate that number if at all possible. Andrews: The one thing I've noted on Lake Phelan, which is my experience area, is that they, instead of building one structure to serve all needs, have constructed a series of structures along the lake, each specialized for it's function and at one time they used to have one building. Now obviously they've decided that they were unable to serve the needs by having one building do all things and I think maybe we could learn that lesson without making the same mistake. "... schroers: I agree with you on that Jim and that brings me to the you made about the first aid station/lifeguard station. I would agree with a first aid area in the building but not necessarily lifeguard because of where it's located in relation to the beach. The guards may tend to want to congregate in their guard station. Andrews: I wasn't envisioning it as a station. More as an area for their supplies and equipment. Obviously you can't guard the lake from that distance away so mainly just a first aid room with supplies and that's really all you can ask for with this location. Schroers: We have a similiar situation and it seems like if the guards aren't continuously monitored or supervised, that little utility area that they have is where their radio is. It's where their snack is. It's where their coat is and they all tend to find a reason to get there and pretty soon it's a congregation area for the guards and they're not really doing other things that they should be doing. Hoffman: Back to the group picnics for a moment. Of the larger groups that are there, a number of them currently rent from A to Z Rental, whatever, big tents to provide that shelter in case of that rain factor and we can meet that need by straying from this type of shelter and adding just a large concrete slab with a large picnic shelter type roof facility either on this part of the park or on the other half of the park. The new addition of the park and meet a large need and then scale this down to groups of 75 or less. 60 or less and just meet those two different needs in two different ways within Lake Ann Park. ,...... Mady: Mark, staff, do you need any further comment? Any further direction or do you have enough stuff here to work at it? "... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 20 Koegler: Yeah. I think we've got a better feel for where your interest lie. We obviously need to bring back to you something that's a little bit more detailed without getting too far down the road that we can put some costs to and make sure that what we're trying to achieve is attainable within budget. Generally it is but to be refined. Mady: The way it sounds, we're not looking for a Taj Mahal. We're looking for basically covered space that you can put something below it and be used, basically two different levels with two different useages. It looks pretty good. Anybody else have any further comment? REVIEW STATUS OF ROAD IMPROVEMENT PROJECTS AND THE COMPREHENSIVE TRAIL PLAN. Sietsema: The next item on the agenda is discussion of the Comprehensive Trail Plan. At the last meeting yoU talked about prioritization of trail segments and potential scaling back the whole trail plan. With that discussion it was obviously important to know what the status of different road alignments, upgrading different road segments was going to be. I tried to do a brief synopsis of what was happening. Minnewashta, TH 5, North and South TH 101, Lyman Blvd. and Pioneer Trail. Some of them are not scheduled for upgrading or any improvements at all on any schedule. Others obviously, like Minnewashta Parkway, TH 5, sections of TH 101 are scheduled for improvements. Do yoU want me to go through this or are you familiar with it? "... Andrews: Can you direct me to where Lyman Blvd. is? That's the only one I don't know where it is. Sietsema: Lyman Blvd. is, I'll show you on the map. It's south of the Lake Susan Hills West. Andrews: I know where it is. I just didn't know that's what it was called. Sietsema: And what's important about Lyman is that that potentially it goes straight through Chaska and eventually will be a major connection to the western cities. We're anticipating quite a bit of traffic to accumulate on that road as an alternative to TH 5. Robinson: This was really helpful Lori based on our discussions of the trails. Sietsema: I hope that it's helpful in determining your prioritization process and what not. I don't know how yoU want to handle this Jim. Do yoU want to go with this background information, go into discussion of the trail plan or do you want me to go more into detail with what's happening on each road? Mady: I don't know if we need any more detail on each specific road. I didn't see any surprises in here. "..... Robinson: Do we want to change our priorities though? I think a lot of us said TH 101 north was a top priority to us yet there's nothing being done there. ,..... , __r' ,..... ,... \ Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 21 Andrews: I think that's what we initially talked about and then I think we kind of reverted back to Minnewashta knowing that that's going to worked on next year. That was our opportunity. First opportunity. Robinson: But it's still got to be right up there, that TH 101 north. I'm not sure what we would do now. Mady: We're just not going to be able to do anything with somebody else footing the bill. That's what you're saying right? Robinson: I guess so. I didn't want to say it. Mady: It's not going to be cheap. I drove on it tonight again. I've been looking at it for 5 years as a place for a trail. I have yet to figure out how they're going to do it in some places. Andrews: On TH 101? Mady: Yeah. How many skyhooks have you got Mark? Koegler: It's going to take a few. Just some candalever elements along that area. Mady: I don't know how people want to proceed on it. I know I've made my comments known on. The top three are Minnewashta Parkway, TH 101, north and south. I guess south to me can maybe wait a little while until the park starts getting close to coming on line and some of the things happening with development in there as TH 101 gets straighten. We definitely want to be putting it in along the straighten area there. The northern part of TH 101, everybody knows it needs to have work done on it but nobody's got any money to do it. I don't foresee anything happening with it outside of right around the downtown area in my lifetime. It's just too much of a problem. Minnewashta Parkway's going to happen next year. I know we've got the money to do the study on it so I guess to me that's number one. Number two becomes north TH 101. We need to get a study done on it. We need to find out what we're talking about there. Getting some informed opinion on it and we don't have to necessarily do t ha t wit h . . . Andrews: What's the prospect of any coordination with Eden Prairie on TH 101? Slim and none? Mady: I don't know. Sietsema: I believe that they're involved in the Met study that's studying TH 101 at this time. Andrews: Obviously we have a common interest. Mady: Eden Prairie did though put a fairly extensive trail plan together and pretty much avoided TH 101. They did their sections inside. Andrews: I'm sure they're hoping that we'll do it and I'm sure we're hoping that they'll do it. Between the two of us, nothing's going to get done. ".... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 22 Mady: Their side of the road is probably easier to build on unfortunately. I guess those are my comments on it. Sietsema: What do we want to do with the trail plan? Mady: I don't really see us changing the whole trail concept. I don't see a reason to. We don't necessarily have to build right now but that whole trail plan came together as a result of the survey done 3 years ago. Until we get solid information that shows that the interest is no longer there for trails, I don't see a reason to change the plan. We just don't need to build them right now. Sietsema: So we're just noting that these are priority areas on the plan? Mady: Yeah. Andrews: As opportunity ~or funding arises. Mady: It's just like a road plan. You don't necessarily build every road you're going to have in the City but you still reflect that at some point in time there's going to be roads going here and there and everywhere and they may start out to be dirt roads and then maybe asphalt and maybe even ultimately freeways but the progression can be there. You just don't need to have to build everything at once. ,.... Schroers: I agree with what Jim says. I don't really see that we have much of an alternative other than putting in trails along with highway reconstruction or improvement and other than that, the major sections like we're speaking of, north TH 101 is just cost prohibitive. I don't see how we could ever fund that. So we just have to designate it as a nice to. Andrews: Would it be possible to make a contact with Eden Prairie? Sietsema: Sure. Andrews: I'm sure it's been done before but I would assume they're urgency is and anxiousness of the danger of that road has got to be increasing at the same levels that we aTe experiencing. Misery loves company and maybe we could find some alternate methods of funding. The other problem you have is Hennepin County and Carver County line. I mean we've got all the jurisdictional problems where our problem is greatest. I agree with Jim. It won't happen in my lifetime unless it's funded outside of a project, a construction project. I just don't see that happening any time in a 5 year period at least and the problem is extremely dangerous area of travel for anything but a car. Even there it's dangerous so. Erhart: Say Jim, maybe you know about this. Was there any talk about, remember when Eden Prairie had that big bond that they wanted to raise money. That got defeated didn't ~t? Mady: Yeah, both times by less than. One time it was less than 5 votes and the other time it was less than 20 votes or something. ,....., Erhart: So I'm sure TH 101 was probably in that plan. ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 23 Mady: I think we've seen their plan once upon a time. Sietsema: I don't think it was. Erhart: Okay. That was what I was wondering. sietsema: So many of their neighborhoods feed out into other ways to get into the heart of their city other than going on TH 101. They don't have the lake barrier that we do. You can't go through lotus Lake to get to downtown. You have to go out to TH 101 and many of the neighborhoods that are along TH 101 on the Eden Prairie side have another alternate way for a pedestrian to get to their city than to go out on TH 101. So that's not a big priority for them. Dell Road is their... Erhart: I was just wondering if that was part of the trail plan that had been voted down by the residents. I didn't know because I've never seen the plan. Sietsema: I don't know that the trails were a big part, was that a big part of their referendum? ,...., Mady: It had some part of it but it wasn't a large dollar amounts. They had that big addition to the community center and a lot of parks and the golf course and the golf course is I guess what ultimately killed it. I'm trying to remember because it's been at least 3 years since we saw that, maybe even longer. If I'm not mistaken, there was some plans of extending what they had on Pioneer Trail out but only if we were going to be doing something. They weren't going to extend out to us if we weren't going to be doing something so it's been at least 3 years since we looked at that. I know that so Jim's point is very good. We should contact Eden Prairie and see what their thoughts are. It'd be great if two cities can work together on doing something. Maybe it's going to cost only half as much to get to the same way. Andrews: Even if we had a 20% participation. That's 20% less than what we have to produce. Mady: Exactly. Andrews: Is there specific action that we're going to be taking on Minnewashta Parkway or is it just to say that yes, we recognize it's a priority? Sietsema: The next step in the whole process with Minnewashta is that the feasibility study is scheduled to be done later, in late summer or early fall so that can be approved and all the public hearings can be held on the draft plan so they can go ahead and start construction next year. So we don't have to do anything right now until that feasibility study. Andrews: Are we going on the assumption of off street trails or along the side? ,.... Sietsema: I think the feasibility study will come back with a lot of information about that. Most of it I think will have to be, I think it will be a combination just given the topography and the width of the .,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 24 right-of-way out there. Mady: We talk about, one of the things when we're talking about Minnewashta Parkway or TH 101 on the north side, we're talking about budgets and money. In going through the City budget, now I can't find the page I was looking at previously. I was looking through this but we were talking, the projections of revenue for trail fees to me look fairly big. Fairly sort of optimistic. I was curious because at $125.00 a pop, and we usually have about 300 to 400 new home starts a year and not all of them, but a lot of those don't even pay the fee, and recognizing that commercial development does pay us a larger fee but, I wish I could find it in here now. I just thought the budget numbers were a little too optimistic. Sietsema: I'll take a look at it. Mady: Okay. I thought I was seeing $40,000.00-$50,000.00-$60,000.00 a year being put in there and it just didn't look, I was thinking we'd be lucky to get 10 to 15 so. Robinson: 300 to 400 at $125.00. Sietsema: It's $170.00. Mady: It's $170.00 now? "'" Sietsema: $167.00 actually is what the trail fee is per unit and I'd say we have 500 housing starts or more. 400? Mady: 400. Recognizing that a lot of the new developments where sidewalk and trails are going in, they don't pay them so I don't know what the nubmer is. Sietsema: More often than not though they are paid. They are paying the fee. Mady: I guess I'm looking for staff to look at the number because we need to, when we're talking about Minnewashta Parkway later this year, when the feasibility study's done, where the money's going to come from is going to be a very large part of that because we know going in that's probably $100,000.00 to $150,000.00 trail. Just from citizen comment and everything else. It's not going to be a cheap one so we need to start thinking about that and how that money, if we're not going to have the money in the sock next year, maybe there's an opportunity with assessment to the homeowners. We've never done it in the past and I don't know if that's the best way of getting it done. Because if you do it out there, you're going to have to do it every time because they definitely wouldn't be happy with saying well we paid for ours, you're asking them to pay for theirs too specifically so. We need to take a look at that I guess. Any other comments? Staff need any direction? ".... Tom Workman, 7233 Pontiac Circle: I always wanted to do that. Last night we ran into a dilemma. We were discussing the Audubon Road improvements south of McGlynn and that area over there. Sewer and everything else. There's a sidewalk on the west side currently and north of the tracks. Now we're talking about south of the tracks. The dilemma started with the fact ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 25 that MnDot isn't interested in us putting the trail on the bridge and with strip down versions of expanded walkway bridge, I think it was going to come to about $52,000.00? For bikers to get across that. The concern was of course cost and the next concern was that it was on the west side and that didn't seem to make sense at this point in that the new neighborhood is on the east side and the connection to the industrial park on Park Road and everything else and the new entrance to Lake Ann is going to be lined up with Park Road and moved to the east and that's going to be kind of part of the trail system. That what people would be doing, or kids, what they'd be doing is they'd be getting on, going Audubon Road which can get fast, and going up and then over the bridge and then back over again. Or not using it at all or going up past the McGlynn and then not having any options once they got to TH 5. Obviously Gary Warren hasn't discussed a lot of this. You should have been home early. We got out of there at 9:30 last night. But it's something that you maybe want to think about. I don't know what the future plan could possibly be west of McGlynns and everything else and maybe that sidewalk is needed but before we put a bridge on either side of the deck that's there, it's something that the Park and Rec I think is going to have to seriously look at and start thinking about because where is it going to connect up to. We're assuming that the ultimate destination is the park. People are hopscotching over the road. I don't know. I just thought I'd bring it up. I thought maybe Lori might have caught wind of that. ".,..., Sietsema: No I haven't talked to Gary about that at all but I will and bring it back to the Park and Recreation Commission. Mady: It's a valid point because I know we don't like to make crossings unless it's a controlled crossing like a signal. Tom Workman: It could potentially be a bridge that nobody would use then. Mady: Yeah, it's definitely going to have to have options looked at. I guess Lori, talk to Gary. Sietsema: I will and I'll bring it back to you. Thank you. Mady: Where are we? Do you need any further recommendations? Sietsema: No. AUTHORIZE PLAYGROUND EQUIPMENT PURCHASE FOR LAKE SUSAN PARK. CHANHASSEN HILLS AND SOUTH LOTUS LAKE PARK. ,.... Sietsema: Last year we went through quite an extensive look at what other cities are doing in neighborhood parks with playground equipment and we discussed it at a number of meetings what we thought was a good program for equipment out in the parks. We came up with a plan for Lake Ann Park and the rest of the parks were put on hold for this year. Specifically funded for 1990 are equipment for Chanhassen Hills Park, which is south of Lake Susan, South Lotus Lake and Lake Susan Park. What I need to know from you is would you like me to take the comments that you made last year and put together what you like and what you didn't like or do you want to go out there and look at it all again? I didn't know if you wanted to reinvent the wheel or not. ,.. Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 26 Mady: I don't know. We spend an awful lot of time looking at play structures in the last couple years. Schroers: I feel the same way. I think we've put a lot of effort and energy into it last year and it would be nice to put some of that effort to work for us and not have to redo it all. Sietsema: Okay. I won't do then, if that's the direction that's given, I wouldn't do identical facilities at each park OT have everything the same as what's up at the ball fields at Lake Ann just for variety sake but I'll keep in mind that there were definitely, for instance Jan really didn't like the ring, what do you call them, monkey bars. She liked the straight across ones because she felt they were too difficult for the kids to use and they just didn't get used so we can stay away from those types of things. I'll make the notes, take the notes from the Minutes. If there's anything else you'd like to add or you'd like to see that wasn't mentioned before, then I'd like to know about that now. Schroers: At South Lotus Lake I think that, I don't recall exactly what the plan is there but I know that... ,... Sietsema: We don't have one. South Lotus is one that I'm hesitant to even do anything because we don't know what the shape of the property is going to be yet or what other facilities that yoU want to see out there so I think I'm going to put South Lotus on hold just until the TH 101 issue is settled and that's expected to be settled later this year. Early summer. Schroers: The only thing I wanted to say in regards to South Lotus is that whatever we do there, I think we want to consider room for a skating area in the winter too. Mady: And Curt's tennis court. Sietsema: I'm sure it can all fit there. All I'm saying is that the boundaries, especially in the area of where the wellhouse is, are not currently defined and I really don't know. It looks right now like that will be expanded if the left over right-of-way is turned over to the City. Then that would become parkland. If the State doesn't turn that over to the City, then it's no man's land or it's something different than that so if for some reason the alignment changes and they take more of that piece than we originally thought, the piece may become smaller so we don't want to go out there with totlot equipment that's as big as what we have going in at Lake Ann Park if that means that then we can't have a tennis court anymore because there's not room for anything, or something else that has more priority for you. So I'm not going to order anything unless yoU feel strongly that I should. I'm not going to order anything right now for South Lotus until we can get that park plan done because it just, I think that it's going to... Andrews: I have one comment about, I don't know has North Lotus Lake considered playground equipment? There's some very limited. ,..... Sietsema: That's phase 1. There's a phase 2 that was planned. ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 27 Andrews: I have an 8 year old son that he's outgrown that already and are there larger scaled things planned? Erhart: We have that problem at the Bandimere Park too. That's a real pre-school type. Sietsema: And that was also phase 1 and now with the other south park, if we take that soccer field out, we've got room to expand that area also. Andrews: So you've got larger scale equipment planned? Sietsema: For older kids. Although it doesn't get much more sophisticated. Andrews: Just the size is the main thing. Just higher up and bigger. I suppose by age 10 they probably don't use it much more. Sietsema: Yeah, exactly. Erhart: Lori, do you have a list of what we said for Lake Susan? Does anybody remember Lake Susan Park? ,..... Sietsema: discussion discussion like. You didn't talk about what would go there. It was only of what would go at Lake Ann last year. It was just general of what you liked in playground equipment and what you didn't Robinson: What's the timing for a plan for South Lotus? Sietsema: We had originally scheduled that for tonight's meeting but in discussions with Gary, it's not a final alignment. They haven't decided for sure. It's not written in stone yet what that alignment of TH 101 is going to be so until we know what that is going to be for sure, anything, any money that we spend on park design plans or equipment it could have to be revised a number of times before it actually happens but TH 101 is scheduled to be realigned later this year or early next year so those plans have to gel pretty soon and he was anticipating that we would be able to go ahead with plans, design plans for the park by mid-summer. And that shouldn't take too long because you guys have a general idea of what you want to see there so we could actually get some stuff in. Erhart: So we're going to authorize playground equipment tonight for these parks? Sietsema: With the exception of South Lotus Lake. Erhart: ...know what we're going to put in there yet? You're just going to come back to us with something? "... Sietsema: Well last year you went around and you looked at different playground equipment and you went and you told me. We don't like this and we don't like this but we really like this and we came up with what we had at Lake Ann Park up by the ball fields. We came up with a phase 1 and a phase 2 so what I'm saying is, I can do that, come back with a plan that's similar to that for these parks because I know from last year what you ,-., Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 28 liked and didn't like unless you have something else in mind. Erhart: Okay, I've got one comment now and I hope it's not too late. The chute slide. I'd like to see one of those out at Lake Susan if there is a way we can get it in because my daughter's at the age right now where she likes it so it's kind of something I'd like to see, kind of a selfish thing and the bigger the better. She's kind of suicidal. No, seriously. You should have seen her at the fair. They wouldn't let her go up without an adult. Two stories up so I know you're not going to do something that big Lori but just if we could see if that would work in there. A lot of small children like that. Mady: We'll rename the park suicide hill. Lori, comment on play equipment. I'm trying to remember and I think I know where we headed last year when we talked about wood structures versus metal structures. The flavor of the city, what we've done in the past has always been with the wood structures. Kind of trying to keep it in more of the passive, natural setting. Now at the school we went with a metal structure and there's been a lot of favorable opinion on that because it's bright and it's cheerful and it's real neat. We're still thinking on the wood structures aren't we in our parks keeping more in line with the passive nature of our parks? Sietsema: Yes. That's what you had tended to go for last year. Some of the more colorful things that come off of it like. '" Erhart: The slide. Mady: That's great but. Sietsema: But the basic structure is the timber form. Schroers: When we were on tour we noticed that a lot of the metal things got to look bad after a short period of time because the paint and the coating and various things come off and they get looking worse as time goes on where actually some wood structures, weathering take on a nicer look after a period of time. Sietsema: So unless you want to change that mode, I was going to go with the timber. Mady: Do we need a motion? Sietsema: Yes, I need a motion. Do you want to see plans before I go ahead and order something or do you base my... Mady: Would you be able to have it by the next meeting? Sietsema: Maybe. Erhart: It'd be nice to look at plans if we could. Sietsema: I probably could, yes. ,.... Mady: I make a motion to direct staff to prepare plans foy park playground equipment at Lake Susan Park and Chanhassen Hills Park and present it back ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 29 to us at our first meeting in April. Robinson: Second. Mady moved, Robinson seconded to direct staff to prepare plans for playground equipment at Lake Susan Park and Chanhassen Hills Park and present it to the Park and Recreation Commission at the first meeting in April. All voted in favor and the motion carried. COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS: Mady: Does anybody have any? I've got one. Schroers: I've got an idea. Mady: Go ahead. ,... Schroers: And I don't know if this is a park and rec. If it's in our jurisdiction area of responsibility or whatever but just my observation, looking around the City is that there are some both active and passive use areas in our neighborhoods that have just become collection points for debris that have been blown around by the wind. That's been dragged in by the younger children that aren't focused into neat and tidy mode at the stage where they currently are and I'm wondering if the Park and Rec can initiate or sponsor neighborhood clean-up program. Designate a day as neighborhood clean-up day. Something like that and have the City provide a truck to haul the refuse away. Mady: We talked about that last year did we not? Robinson: That's exactly what I was going to bring up. Sue Boyt brought it up that we have park clean-up day some Saturday in April. Sietsema: He's on it. It's in the brochure. Schroers: I'm not talking just about parks. I'm talking about designated wetlands. Neighborhood, passive\active. Wherever. The whole city is full of litter and trash everywhere you look. It's pretty disgusting and it's real noticeable now because everything's so brown and bare but it's also the optimum time to get it. Robinson: And it would be so easy I think. On a Saturday morning if we just got out and it's just a matter of picking it up. We've got to have a truck to put it in and maybe get the Boy Scouts involved or some other community organization. ,.. Mady: I think it's real reflective of what happened this last weekend with the recycling bins and ~ll the Girl Scouts, the Boy Scouts, the Cub Scouts, the Brownies, they were all out there. I don't know what other community groups. I know those groups were up there and they did a heck of a job. They covered the city and I know talking with Mike Lynch in the past, he said the Boy Scouts would always be more than willing to help and I know the Girl Scouts would be more than willing to do things of that nature so gosh, that's a great idea. .,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 30 Robins.on: I walk down the hedge by Barne's buildng behind Pauly's down there this afternoon. I walked down there. It is a mess. I mean there's a truckload in that hedge of garbage. Andrews: The question is, if we pick up the garbage, can we legally throw it away? Schroers: That is the biggest problem. Where do you go with this stuff? I mean right out in front of my house there's a wetland and it just looks absolutely terrible. It just looks like it's an open, like for anybody that doesn't want something, throw it there. Robinson: I think it was the fact that we didn't have any snow and the wind must have blown a lot of it because it's really bad this year. Erhart: A lot of people just dump though too. Robinson: Yeah, I guess you're right. Mady: And with all the construction, you just get everything. Schroers: So Todd, you already have a program in the works? Tell us about it. ~ Hoffman: In the winter brochure, taking off of what we talked about last year and being a very firm believer in a clean environment and respect for our environme~t and cleaning up after ourselves, we initiated in the winter brochure a city wide clean-up idea and it was in the winter brochure. Call the Chanhassen Park and Recreation Department if you're interested in getting all this kind of idea. In the brochure, the 5,000 brochures generated one phone call. Spring brochure it was listed again and that generated another phone call and then the person from the winter brochure called back to reaffirm that she was interested in being involved in her neighborhood so that is 2. Erhart: And 7 here. Hoffman: However, conversations in the past with the Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts organizations, we've got reactions anywhere from positive to negative. In p~rticular a conversation with one leader in the scouting organization was quite disturbing that they have kind of fallen away from that. Kids don't like to pick up litter anymore. Andrews: I think yoU hit an unusual situation. Based on Cub Scouts, they literally are looking for projects to do because they have to do one to get their little check marks or whatever and most of them would be excited to take an hour or a half or whatever to pick up a neighborhood park. ,.... Hoffman: I think you're right there. The logistics of organizing an event like that, the logistics of organizing the distribution of the recycling bins is a major undertaking. It's something that sounds very simply but to incorporate it. get the publicity out there. The cost of publicity. The time lag between the initial. really get some ground work and getting the actual day planned and trying to get the whole community involved will take some time so we really need to make that commitment here fairly soon. ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 31 We've advertised it. I've had several discussions with Jo Ann Olsen from the Planning department who also investigated this type of thing, a city wide clean-up. The cost of looking into getting cost estimates. Investigating other cities. The City of Shakopee, cities throughout the metropolitan area and what it costs to have those types of things. Providing the dumpsters. Providing the trucks. The cost of getting rid of that waste. What do you limit it to? Trash in the bushes and the ditches or do you take on backyard or refrigerators and appliances and those types of things? Erhart: No. Just paper trash. Sietsema: But some cities do. I mean they do have one day a year that you can put your old washing machine and stuff like that. Robinson: That's not a bad idea. Schroers: That is a good idea because what do you do with that stuff? Robinson: That's right, and tires. Larry brought it up but I was going to bring up the same thing. What I had in mind is hell, just go out with plastic bags and put them someplace and if the City would come along and pick them up. I mean it could be as simple as that I think. ,..... Sietsema: And we had some people in here from the Carver Beach area, when they were here talking about the park, they had volunteered to do a neighborhood pick-up and clean up the steep slopes in that park over there. We'll be contacting them when we get this all put together. Schroers: If we ran a major ad on the front page of the Villager, would that do anything as far as stimulating interest? Robi nson: It should almost h.appen in the month of Apr i I sometime shouldn't it? You get beyond that and then the grass is up and it's covered up. Andrews: There are other activities too. Mady: Fishing's open. The water's out. You've got this new guy. Hoffman: Give it to the new guy. Andrews: You said give him the garbage. Literally there it is.. Give him the garbage. ,... Mady: Okay. It's a great idea. Just don't let it drop. I had a couple minor things. On the trail going out to Lake Ann along TH 101, right at the corDer of TH 5. Someone did some utility work it looks like there and ditched it out and then laid some cable. Well right at the trail there was what looks like from the road, it looks like it's a hole about 18 inches deep and about a foot to 2 feet wide right through the trail. I know the kids in school at some point in time will be walking out to Lake Ann. That should get filled. I don't know who did it and why it wasn't filled because all the rest of it, it looks like it's been cleaned up but that one spot there looks like about 20 feet long. A trench about 18 inches deep and it's right across the trail. I saw a couple walking out to Lake ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 32 Ann Park tonight when I drove out that way and it needs to be fixed. I don't know if we go out there with a half a yard of dirt or somebody but fill it. The tennis screen up on, that faces Laredo where it looks like I think it's coming down. Sietsema: Well we need to decide on a tennis screen is if you want to have tennis screens. It's very expensive. That court up there cost well over $1,000.00 and we've replaced it, portions of it every year. It's in tatters right now and it's in bad shape and we need to determine if we want to invest in some tall shrubs and vines or something to grown on the fence or if we want to continue to put tennis nets up there. It's a windy area. Or maybe we just want to do it on a couple of sides. I need your direction on how we should handle that because it is a major expense. I mean not major major but it's costly. Schroers: How much use do the courts get? Andrews: The North Lotus is the same problem. That's blowing in the wind, what's still left of it. Erhart: How often are they used? Mady: They get a lot of use. Erhart: Even though it is windy? ,.... Mady: Yeah. Robinson: Is it $1,000.00 for the whole, to screen the whole thing? Sietsema: The one with four courts UP here, it's well over $1,000.00. I'd say it's closer to $1,500.00 for those. It's about almost $1,000.00 for the two each for the two at North Lotus and the two at... Andrews: The problem with greenery, planting greenery is it takes several years before it's effective. You're going to have complaints that well what good is it so I don't think there is an easy solution. Schroers: Would you expect a lot of negative input from the tennis players if we did away with the screens? Sietsema: I'd expect, if we totally did away with it, yeah. I think that we went with the half screens on some of the courts and.I haven't heard any complaints on those. Erhart: It makes a difference. Mady: What's the predominant wind in the summer. Is it still out of the north/northwest or are we getting... ,.... Andrews: High pressure's northwest and low is southwest. But I know at North Lotus it's a very exposed tennis court. There's a half a mile of open, or quarter mile at least of open space and if there's any wind, it's just a problem. But at $1,500.00 a pop per year... ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 33 Erhart: Why are they tearing? Sietsema: Because it is so open. The wind is just ripping them. Erhart: There isn't a better material out? Sietsema: We've looked and that's the best he could find. Mady: Would we better off taking them down in late October, November? Sietsema: They would be a lot better off but the amount of time it takes to do that, especially with the number of courts that we have now. I mean they could spend a week on tennis. Andrews: What would be the concept of kind of a neighborhood adopt a park kind of a thing? I mean in North Lotus, I play tennis down there probably twice a week at least and if you had, if the choice to me was either take it down and store it and bring it back in the spring and put it back up versus not have it, I think the choice would be take it down and store it and put it back up in the spring. Sietsema: Boy, I'm sure we'd take volunteers. I'm sure Dale would be open for that because it's very time consuming for him. Andrews: Would the City be willing to store it? ,...... Sietsema: Oh sure. I'll ask him about it. Andrews: I think most of the wind damage occurs in the winter, from what I could see so when the plastic's more brittle plus the wind is much stronger in the winter. Robinson: So are you saying that you really have to have... Erhart: I think you need one. Andrews: Otherwise you're going to eliminate probably 30% of the sunny days that you could play. Pemrick: It'd be worth a try to see if you'd get neighborhood cooperation. Erhart: Especially if you tell them what it costs to replace it. Andrews: I think the whole concept of adopt a park, which sort of goes along with this clean-up thing, maybe you could sort of say, this is your neighborhood property. It's provided to you by the City and if you get people to invest their time, they'll take care of the park, they'll use it more as well. I know it's a difficult thing to organize, I realize. Erhart: Could we tell them they have to take care of it and take it down or we're not going to replace it with a new one? r, Sietsema: I can write letters to homeowner's associations and that kind of thing and ask them if they have some volunteers that would be willing to do it because it's becoming cost prohibitive for us to continue to supply .,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27. 1990 - Page 34 tennis screens. Erhart: That's a lot of money. Mady: The last thing I had on commission presentations. I spoke with a resident that lives near Chan Pond Park and they indicated that it appeared that someone had done some tree trimming on the south side of the Pond Park to help their views of the pond. Trimmed some trees on the park property. Obviously we probably can't do a whole lot about it but it'd be nice if our code enforcement officer could visit the site and if we can indeed. being that someone has done it, maybe they could get a letter from the City instructing them that that's park property and they can't be doing those kinds of things on park property. sietsema: It was one park property or was it on the conservation easement? Mady: Not positive either way. Either way it'd be against city policy. Sietsema: If you could advise this person that if he sees that type of activity, he should call the Public Safety Department and submit a report. Do you have the address? Mady: I don't have the address. All I know is somebody saw it. ,.... Sietsema: I can report it now but I need the address of where it's occurring. Hoffman: The south side. Mady: Yeah, it's the south side. That's all I know. I can get you probably within 4 houses of it probably. I guess they were all fresh cuts. Any other commission presentations? ADMINSTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS. Mady: I had a question on the Adminstrative packet. Conrad Fiskness' letter. Reading the updates that appear in the pap~r on the Lake Lucy clean-up that the neighborhood's undertaking and then-reading what Conrad put in his letter, or rather skimming it. I didn't read it real verbatim. I almost got the impression from Conrad's letter that the Watershed District is still going to go full charge and go with the whole project, yet kind of listening to what I'm hearing on the Lake Lucy residents, they're going to do more of a, so I don't really know where we're heading with this thing anymore. I Just wanted to find out if we do know where we're heading. "...... Sietsema: It's chicken and egg situation. The City doesn't really want to provide access, go to the expense of putting access on Lake Lucy if there's not going to be a project funded and the feds don't want to fund a project without access on all the lakes. So the Watershed is part of the reason that they're going ahead with all this is because they need to finish their work plan phase to get the funding that was allocated for the work plan. And they've expended quite a bit of money and they want to be refunded so they need to finish that. Once that work plan is in place, then we have the opportunity to or they have the opportunity to continue to apply for a ""'. Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 35 fund to do the project and at that time I think that they would put more pressure on the City to commit to an access or not. Right now they're just interested in completing the work plan so they can get be refunded for the monies that they've already expended. In a nutshell, that's the way I read it. Mady: Basically right now no one really knows where it's going to head? Sietsema: No. Mady: Any futher items? Hoffman: One more thing. Great news. Two years ago the Park and Recreation Department made an application for approximately a $30,000.00 fishing pier at Lake Ann Park. That was not funded last year. This year it was number two on the priority list. However, the number one has dropped out so I've received notification that we should be receiving our fishing pier sometime this summer. Have not received that in a written contract form which we have signed as of yet but it's just about a signed and sealed deal. It will be a 100 foot fishing pier, 8 feet wide. Fully railed. It's got about a 30 or 40 foot T on the end and it will be installed to the east of the boat access there in the approximate location of where the smaller miniscule dock compared to this thing was installed. Mady: Can Larry cast the first plug off it? "'" Hoffman: We'll have a grand opening ceremony I'm sure. Sietsema: The value of this fishing pier is roughly? Hoffman: $30,000.00 and it's not a matching grant. It's a fully funded grant to the City of Chanhassen. Mady: What happens to the $3,500.00 fishing pier we were going to put out there? Hoffman: We're going to put it somewhere else. Robinson: Well gee, that was worth waiting for. Mady: That's wonderful. Erhart: We'll have to go out there and have the paper come out and take a big picture of it. We'll bring our fishing poles. Hoffman: It mayor may not be in place for the youth fishing program. Mady: Fishing contest? ,.... Hoffman: The fishing contest should be on July 4th but the new fishing, what do you call, intergenerational programming with seniors and youth program... I still have to hear word back from the trails and waterways division of the DNR and when that timeline for installation will be. Andrews: It's a permanent pier? fill" Park and Rec Commission Meeting March 27, 1990 - Page 36 Hoffman: It stays in year round. Mady: But it's not covered by insurance guys? sietsema: Sure it is. Mady: No, it's not. Robinson moved. Erhart seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9=26 p.m.. Submitted by Lori sietsema Park and Rec Coordinator Prepared by Nann Opheim ,.... "