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PRC 1990 06 26 ''',:~ ",..... PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JUNE 26. 1990 Chairman Mady called the meeting to order at 7:36 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Mady, Jan Lash, Larry Schroers, and Jim Andrews MEMBERS ABSENT: Dawne Erhart, Curt Robinson and Wendy Pemrick STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Recreation Supervisor and Mark Koegler, Consultant APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Schroers moved, Lash seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated May 21, 1990 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. Hoffman: To appoint acting chair, do you want to keep doing that? Mady: We'd have to amend the Rules. The meeting rules for the year if we do. If we change it. Hoffman: Change it to? Mady: Not do it. .,..... Lash: Maybe that's something we could discuss when everyone's here and you just figured you'd do it for tonight right Jim? Mady: Yeah, since there wasn't anybody. Usually if there's a dash there and the name. Schroers: Tonight's a real easy night if someone who hasn't done it before wanted to do it, it'd be a heck of a night to do it. Mady: Without people here. Hoffman: My question is, I don't know what Lori's list was so I'll just start a new one. Mady: That'd be fine until such time as... Andrews: You can put me on the rotation. I'd like to be on the rotation. Hoffman: Okay. Mady: Jan, Dawne and Wendy said not to. Lash: This is starting to sound sexist. I'll have to give this some thought. Mady: Not intentionally. You guys had your own choice. Lash: I know but that's the way the cards are going. ." ,..... Park and Ree Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 2 RECREATIONAL PROGRAM FEES. Hoffman: What you essentially have before you is a list of programs which the Department of Recreation Department sponsors and there's also a list of programs which we co-sponsor. Contractual agreement programs and then the co-sponsor for... Hopefully so the Commission has a better idea what's going on in the programming aspect of the department, each year we'll have a year end evaluation report that shows the recreation programs non-self supporting. What those programs were. What the expenditures were for each of those programs and what the revenues generated. Then as well for the 146 recreation programs, self supporting programs we included numbers like participants. Where those participants came from and the dollars generated and then the expenses as well the recreation programming aspect. As the City grows, I think that will help the Commission in keeping you up to date on what is going on. Mady: Can I ask some questions Todd since I don't know what some of these things are and I don't have my booklet? What's wingdings and super read outs? Are those kid deals? Lash: Yeah. Wednesdays? ,..... Hoffman: Part of the summer discovery playground program. Then on Wednesday afternoons we just have the zoo mobile here last week. This week they're watching a movie and eating popcorn. Then there will be super events as part of the summer discovery playground program. The first week they learn to... They go to Fort Snelling. Those types of activities. Lash: And Murphy's Landing. Mady: How about Operation Smart? Hoffman: Operation Smart? That's a new program which Jerry, when he was brought in as the new program specialist brought some programs with. Operation Smart is exploring the underwater world. Kids in the Kitchen. Operation Smart is back to the, it's a female or girls only program which goes through a variety of activities. So it's a program for girls. Schroers: In general do these fees cover the expense of providing the program? Hoffman: Again, it doesn't break down recreation programs for either 146 which is self supporting which includes all adult sports and some of the youth sports. The other youth sports like the playground. That's a subsidized program that falls into the 145 recreation programs and that's self supporting. So some of these are subsidized and some generate costs. Lash: Subsidized from who? By ~ho? Hoffman: By our annual Park and Recreation budget. ,....., Mady: Genel-al revenue. Any other questions? Park and Rec Commission Meeting "... June 26, 1990 - Page 3 Andrews: Does this come up for review in the late fall, early winter then? Hoffman: The year end? Andrews: Yeah, the year end figures and costs and revenues? Hoffman: Yeah. Hopefully just after the first of year. That's something that's not been done in the past. The programs such as the ones on the back which like Kellogg's Body and. ..Dance, they generated a surprising amount of revenue for us with very little work. Probably in excess of about $1,000.00 per year for those two programs. Some programs offset other ones. Lash: Is this what we get or is this like the Kellogg's Le Body Shop, $3.00, is that what the fee is? Hoffman: , location. What they get, yeah. And then we get a good percentage, 10% for 10% for advertising and 10% if we take the registrations. Lash: So you get 90 cents per class per person? Hoffman: Yeah. ,.... L.ash: Okay. DISCUSSION OF THE 1990 4TH OF JULY CELEBRATION. Mady: Any request for volunteers? Hoffman: That's what this is, yeah. Lash: When Dawne called me, she asked if there was anything of importance I don't know how to say this, on the agenda tonight and I did mention that you were looking for volunteers so she said I'm supposed to volunteer her for whatever I want. Hoffman: Great. Mady: That's dangerous. Hoffman: Glad to hear it. Basically we're well under way. We start Saturday with the events Sunday and again with the torch run. On Saturday the Co-Rec Softball Tournament is filled with 8 teams. On Sunday the Men's Softball Tournament is filled with 10 teams and then Tuesday night is the street dance and community picnic where we need ample support to pull that event off as Wednesday for family day. So this item is brought to you solely for your information and your opportunity to contribute your volunteer. Mady: And this year again Todd, are you dangling. ,.... Hoffman: Dangling these wonderful T-shirts. Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ June 26, 1990 - Page 4 Lash: Neon. Hoffman: Did you take a look at these? Schroers: If we volunteer, we get a T-shirt, is that it? Hoffman: You bet. Lash: I didn't last year. I had to win mine. Mady: Well at least you got one. Lash: Yeah I did. I weal- it a lot too. Okay, should I volunteer? Hoffman: Yep. Lash: I'm willing to serve food if I can do it, do you have it in shifts or how does this work? I'd like to do it early and be done with it. Hoffman: Sure. Lash: Okay. So could I do that like for an hour and then do games for like an hOU1-? ".... Hoffman: You bet. Whatever you want. Lash: He's easy. So like 6:00 to 7:00 and then 7:00 to 8:00. Okay, then I'm done by the time the band starts right? Hoffman: Yep. Lash: Good. Put Dawne down too. She said she'll do it with me. Mady: She said she'd do clean-up too? Lash: Oh yeah, she wants to clean-up also. Andrews: I'll do the same hours. 6:00 to 8:00. Hoffman: Jan, are you going to be able to help out with the family games? Lash: Yeah, and I think Dawne will do that too. Andrews: This on Tu~sday we're talking about? Hoffman: No, this is Wednesday. Lash: Okay, 2:00 to 3:00. Last year I did the hoola hoop and the limbo. Remember that? Hoffman: Yeah. ~ 11"'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 5 Lash: hours I could probably do that too. So if I do it from like, that's 2 on, okay. I'll do that. Is that enough? Hoffman: That's great. Mady: I'm going to pass. I'm going to be out of town Tuesday through Sunday. Andrews: Well cash contributions. Mady: I think I'll take out of some of the volunteer effort out of the last 5 years. Lash: I'll probably be over for the fishing contest anyway. Hoffman: If I need you, I'll grab you. Mady: She's got that 5 pound northern tied up. Lash: But you know I'm not going to pass for under 15 this year. I just don't like. I'd like to. They were down there today, the DNR doing the fish count. They said there's none there just like I said. "...., Andrews: They've got tame ones just for the kids. Mady: I was told upstairs today that they thought Lake Lucy may be had froze out. Lash: Oh, I'm sure. It does like every couple years. But there's two guys upstairs and the other guy said, no. He saw some sunfish in there. Some small ones but he saw sunfish. And the ~arp have been rolling where I was at over the weekend so if there are carp, they should have been very evident this weekend. Schroers: My 4th of July schedule is still up in the air. I may have to cover for a torch runner on Sunday and I'm just not happy about that. Having to go into work for 2 hours but. Resident: Cover for a torch runner of Chan? Schroers: Yes. Resident: Doug Mitchell? Schroers: Yes. But he's my main man now. But, then there's another family deal going on so I'm not sure what my schedule is going to be but I will probably just show up and say where do you need me if that will work? Hoffman: Tuesday night? Schroers: Tuesday night or Wednesday. Both maybe if I can but I can't ~. commit to any hours at this point. Pa,k and Rec Commission Meeting ~ June 26, 1990 - Page 6 Hoffman: The ca,nival games and booths on Tuesday we',e going to need some help. Sch,oe,s: And what time is that? 6:00 to 9:00 on Tuesday? Hoffman: Yeah. Sch,oe,s: Well I'll do my best to make it but I don't want to commit to something and then not be able to. Hoffman: Okay. And family games this time, we',e going to have them down on the beach so we',e off the hill. Lash: Oh, the family games? Okay. So it will be ,ight in the same place, as the othe" the hoola hoop and stuff? Hoffman: Yeah, it will be out by the big oak t,ee along the asphalt t,ail. Lash: Okay. Do you have eve,ything that you need fo, that so you so,t of know what you're doing and you have it together and stuff? Hoffman: Yeah, ,eady to go fo, it. We have the balloon toss, squi,t gun ,elay, the othe, ,elays. ~ Lash: The one whe,e you tie you, legs togethe, and push the ball? That one with you, head. Hoffman: Okay. The membe,s that a,e absent, I will sign them up. Lash: Hey, do we have to voluntee, to be in this dunk thing? Hoffman: Su,e. I mean I told them to call the Pa,k and Rec,eation Commissione,s. I know they got City Council and Mayo, up the,e. Lash: The,e a,e going to be a lot of people doing a lot of dunking. What time is that supposed to go on? Hoffman: I think that sta,ts f,om 6:00 and goes until 9:00. Mady: I was told about 4 0, 5 yea,s ago that in Ca,ve, County dunk tanks we,e illegal. The,e's a County o,dinance against it and it had to do with, this is all hea,say but this is back when I was in the Jaycees and we we,e trying to do those types of programs and it had to do something about in the past at some point in time Al Klingelhutz was involved with one and he got dunked and hurt his back. Due to that, they made it a policy or, I don't know. Although it's been up at St. Hube,t's all those yea,s that I've been going there and Al's always up there so I don't think that's maybe the way it is. Lash: If it's not a State law, the police couldn't enforce it anyway. If it's just in the o,dinance. ,..., I"'" Pa,k and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 7 Mady: I don't know. I just thought it was kind of inte,esting. I had hea,d this when we we,e back in the Jaycees and yet St. Hube,t's does it eve,y yea, so obviously it eithe, isn't 0, it's just igno,ed. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: Mady: All that's left is adminst,ative packet. Any questions on the Adminsist,ative packet? Hoffman: You might just want to go th,ough that item by item. Lash: On this Bandime,e thing. Obviously at ou, last meeting when we b,ought up about the lady who thinks it should be p,ese,ved. That must have.. . Hoffman: We haven't hea,d f,om he,. Lash: So you figu,e it's okay to to,ch it then? Hoffman: Well we haven't hea,d f,om he, afte, this lette, went out so. Lash: Oh, you sent a lette, to he,? Hoffman: The notice went to Wendy and Wendy was he, neighbo, and the ~ pe,son... Mady: Wendy was going to talk to he, about it. And,ews: It's a dange,ous building. It needs to be bu,nt. Lash: Well I just thought befo,e we did that, it might be diplomatic to talk to he, fi,st so that the thing that she thinks should be histo,ically p,ese,ved, she doesn't see the City just bu,n it down without totally... Sch,oe,s: Well wasn't that the lady that carne to ou, meeting and when we told he, about the condition of the place, what she ,eally said that she was conce,ned about we,e th~ houses that we,e made out of Chaska b,ick. Lash: That wasn't he,. Mady: That wasn't the same pe,son but they we,e inte,ested in the same thing. Lash: But it wasn't the same pe,son. I just thought it might be kind of callous if we ignored what she said and just went in there and burned the house down. And,ews: We could invite he, to light the fi,st match. Mady: Yeah, the ce,emonial first match thrown. Okay. Lake Ann was obviously seeded. Did,they get the socce, field done too now? ;"*" Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,.... June 26, 1990 - Page 8 Hoffman: Soccer field. They're regrading. They've resurveyed it and now they're regrading. The ballfields are coming along nicely. Mady: Yeah, the grass looked nice. Schroers: If we can't get them to ~ome in this year, I don't know. We're going to be in trouble. Growing conditions are ideal. Hoffman: The first few hard rains after they just seeded it, took out some gullys but they'll have to do some hand seeding and grading and leveling this fall and hopefully by this spring we'll be able to play. The remainder of this park and the soccer field as of yet is still unseeded though. Some of the issues which you've seen in here on the drainage problems are being addressed back through.. .coming back to us with a solution to try to move some of that water out of there more quickly and that will be installed as part of the final product which we're getting. Schroers: I would recommend if they could to fill in the washouts and seed right in the first of September. Last week of August or first week of September because you want some time to get that established before the freeze. ,.... Mady: now so And from about now on, we're pretty much going to hit the dry spell we might as well not do anything through July. Hoffman: There's the last remark in there that we really feel we're getting the solution.. .so Mark was asked to take a look at it and see what, just get a different viewpoint. So this is what they came back with so through conversations with Gary Warren and Mark. ..and his input and this letter from Mark, we should have a solution. The letter from. ..concerning Curry Farms.. .keep you up to date. The site plans on here normally. Those would be brought to the Park Commission as a regular agenda item. If you have any questions on any of these two, you can... Lash: What about this thing to the Mayor of Victoria? There wasn't anything. I don't remember seeing a letter previously from him so I guess I'm confused what she's asking about here. Hoffman: Okay, the railroad which cuts just the northwest corner of Chanhassen, the railroad tracks that come across. The city of Victoria has that developed as a bith path throughout the City of Victoria. City of Shorewood has it developed as a bike path through Shorewood and downtown Excelsior. They're just asking us if we will commit to finishing that, I don't know if that distance is in here. Less than a mile segment through the City of Chanhassen. Lash: Okay. Hoffman: Do you have any viewpoints on that? If that's something that... Schroers: r was on that trail on Sunday and that trail goes beyond ,.... Shorewood all the way up into Minnetonka. Into Minnetonka Mills. Thete are parts of it that are excellent. There are other parts of it that are ".... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 9 basically non-rideable unless you're young with a strong mountain bike. It would be really nice to see that trail finished all the way. To cover a lot of distance and it's something that people would use a lot and I noticed that on the parts that were finished nice, there was a lot of people using it and as soon as you get to a section that was unimproved, you may say there was practically nobody on it. So it really disrupts the trail to have portions of it that are unimproved. Lash: What's the difference between the improved and unimproved? Schroers: Where it was really nice was in Minnetonka from you know where those Little League baseball fields are on TH 101? From there east. It was a very fine crushed aggregate and it was almost like cement. It was smooth. It was flat. You don't need a mountain bike. Just a regular road bike goes down there really nice. Immediately west of TH 101, it's railroad rock. You can't ride hardly anything on it. It's not good to walk on. It's just really pretty much unacceptable for a trail. Hoffman: The first segment that comes through downtown Victoria is finished with the same type of small aggregate which packs down and is very rideable. The last segment is that large railroad, that gray rock that it's sharp on the edges. Basically most of those segments are used for snowmobile trails in the winter and if they're covered with snow it's sufficient. But now the City of Victoria has budgeted enough monies to ".... improve the rest of that trail. Take off that railroad rock and put down, it's almost like a pea rock on the baseball field. To continue that and then they're working with the City of Shorewood and see if they can't get that whole segment so they contacted us just to see if we can do our small segment of trail in there. Schroers: I would think if there was any funds available, I would certainly be in favor of it. Lash: So is that something we can remember to look at? Hoffman: Someone should probably make a motion on it. Probably an in-house project to go up there and take a look at that. Maybe the maintenance folks in the City of Victoria would...park maintenance and get an idea of how they're going about it so they all sing the same tune and next spring they get to that and they can go ahead and do that. Mady: Don't they set the ag lime right on top of the existing railroad bed? Schroers: No, not really because that rock doesn't settle very well. You're looking for a motion Todd? What you would like is a motion of intent or interest to meet with the City of Victoria to research the possibilities or do you want a motion? Do you want approval to go ahead with it? Hoffman: Yeah. ,-.. Lash: We don't have the money to do it do we? Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~. June 26, 1990 - Page 10 Hoffman: We can budget for it. Lash: So we'd have to make sure it's in the budget? That's what I'm afraid we're going to forget to do is get it in the budget. If we make a motion now to do that, then is that going to reassure us that it will be in the budget next year? Hoffman: Sure... Andrew: I second it. Who moved? Lash: I thi nk Lany did. Mady: What is the motion exactly? Schroers: The motion is to proceed with. Lash: Investigating the possibilities? Schroers: No, not investigating the possibilities. The motion is to proceed with budgeting and completing the segment of that particular trail that runs through the City of Chanhassen. ;1'" Lash: And should we give some direction to get an amount figure? An estimate so that when it comes budget time, we have an idea of what to put in? Mady: I'm assuming they'd meet with Victoria and they'll know exactly what they're doing so then they can estimate the number of yards. Lash: Okay, make sure we get that so we know come budget time what we're doing. Schroers moved, Andrews seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission proceed with budgeting and completing the upgrading of a segment of trail that runs through the northwest corner City of Chanhassen in 1991. All voted in favor and the motion carried. SITE PLANS. Mady: Any questions on the site plans? Lash: What are you looking for? .,..... Hoffman: Normally you recall when site plans are brought up before us for any commercial, industrial or residential developments, we look at things like trail easements, park fees, accepting land or accepting park and trail fees in lieu of land. Those types of things. So basically these two items are obviously not in areas where we're going to require parkland. Any trail easements which would be necessary to be taken and we'll...park and trail fees. ,.... Pa,k and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 11 Andrews: Do we have to allow for the t,ail along TH 5 or is that just go i ng to be... Hoffman: That's in the State. Andrews: That's in the State plan? Okay. Mady: State highway plan. And they're both on TH 5. And,ews: So I don't think we need to do anything other than... Mady: I think all we need to do is move to recommend the City accept park and t,ail fees in lieu of development on both plans. I don't know if you need separate motions on each one or not but ditto them for both but I'll move. Schroe,s: I'll second. Mady moved, Schroers seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to accept park and trail fees in lieu of parkland and trail construction on the two site plans located on TH 5. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ~ Schroer"s: Todd, while we're talking about this trail business, there is a washout just east of the Lake Ann ent,ance on that bike t,ail that could be hazardous to someone. Hoffman: That came out of the new park area there? Washed out of that? Schroers: Yeah. Hoffman: Did it take out the asphalt? Schroe,s: Yeah. It took out the asphalt and what it is is it's about a foot wide and about a foot deep and someone could step in it if they were jogging along the,e at night and b,eak an ankle or someone could d,op a bicycle tire in the,e and go ove, the handle bars. ,..., Hoffman: While we',e on pa,k and t,ail fees, the,e's a point of interest that was discussed last night at the City Council meeting. In going th,ough the sp,ing of 1989, Ma,ch of 1989, ,emembe, when we went th,ough and reconstructed park trail fees and as pa,t of that comme,cial/industrial land, it was designated that land which costs ove, $12,500.00 an acre, the park fee would be determined at 10% of the land cost. McDonald's came in with a proposal to acquire an additional .921 ac,es at a cost of about $160,000.00. That would put their t,ail fee, their park and t,ail fees at about $21,000.00 fo, less than an acr-e of land. So that did not seem ,easonable andlo, fai, so that was discussed last night as an item that the City Council when they app,oved, ,ecommended to app,ove 0, actually ,ecommended that the City Council approved that we go back to the gene,al fo,mula which is $1,200.00 pe, ac,e on all comme,cial/indust,ial until we can take a look at that and find a better way of determining those fees. Pa,k and Rec Commission Meeting ~ June 26, 1990 - Page 12 So that plat came in ~t less than an ac,e at $21,000.00. Robe,t's Automated P,oducts came in at 7.5 ac,es at $22,000.00 so you've got ove, 5 times the amount of land and thei, park fees only about $1,000.00 mo,e and it's still quite high at $22,000.00. We have a su,vey. We'll be b,inging this item back to the Park Commission at their next meeting. A su,vey of a la,ge po,tion of the communities, the Met,opolitan communities and the large percentage of them just acquire park and trail fees and the comme,cial/indust,ial have a flat ,ate of pe, ac,e and the majo,ity of them a,e either above or below the $2,000.00 mark per ac,e. So we',e just a little bit behind in that. We need to get that corrected so we can get ahead and go ahead with these building projects. Have anything further to add to that Don? Mayor Chmiel: You covered it well. Hoffman: Is everybody understanding the idea to that? The intent was, if I recall correctly, when you're dealing with... (There was a tape change at this portion of the meeting.) ,..., Schroers: . ..and that's kind of too bad. That is supposed to be a handicap access but the woodchips going from the parking lot to the pie, a,e pretty hard to negotiate a wheelchair over. Or hard to walk on for someone that is somewhat immobile. So I don't know what the answe, is the,e. Hoffman: That is part of our agreement. Upon receiving that here, the next time the City, public works crew does asphalting, they will remove the woodchips that are there and install the aggregate base and asphalt I believe so we make that enti,e t,ail from the parking lot where the handicap stalls are down to the fishing pier and accessible by wheelchair. Or at least by hardpacked surface. The solution I would see to the drive down there, the sleeve which is installed over by the beach, they'll install a sleeve in the middle of the asphalt trail of the same kind and then put large wood bollards inbetween from the edge of the asphalt trail and onto the lake.. .to cure that problem. Mady: As long as we can do it with either that 0, I was suggesting a split rail fence. Something that.. .just to cut it out. Hoffman: Yeah, a split rail fence would eventually... Mady: You can do them fairly inexpensively. Lash: Then I just wanted to say, what kind of a tu,nout did you get for Teen Night? Hoffman: I think we had 60. Lash: So is that good? Hoffman: That's pretty good. JI"""" ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 13 Lash: From what I heard it was fun and I'm sure it was appreciated. Then another question I had. I saw and heard something when I was looking at the fees about the canoe rack rentals. Has that been all done? No? Hoffman: New racks were built. The sites were never finalized with the park maintenance crew so they don't know where they're going so we have to get together with Dale and determine, or we can talk about that. Lash: I think we figured out where they were going at a meeting didn't we? Schroers: Generally. Hoffman: At Lake Susan and two at Lotus but the exact location of where they would be for like the easiest access of the canoes and that type of thing. Schroers: We had decided at Lotus that one was going to be close to the Carver Beach Park and the other one was going to be further down the trail to more easily accommodate the neighbors that live closest to the lake. Mady: The mini-beach. Schroers: The mini-beach, correct. ,.... Hoffman: I would foresee, that would be on the east of the mini-beach on the flat? Mady: Yeah. Not too far away though. Hoffman: Then the other one would be right in the par k pl"Opel"ty i tse 1 f and then the third one would be installed at Lake Susan. Lash: So did you get many calls from people interested? Hoffman: We received 3 checks. It's something new that people don't know about and they're certainly they're not there so people aren't seeing them. The season's obviously half over so I've contacted those people and said do you want to get a full refund this year and not use them or we'll refund you half and you can use it for the remainder of the season. The park maintenance crews is severely backlogged in their work. They'~e got project after project that they could be doing so it's... Mady: They're spending all their time cutting grass. It's got to stop raining one of these days. Schroers: Speaking of which, what kind of a mower do they use for mowing along the trail by Lake Ann? Hoffman: Along the trail they use... Schroers: Is it a Woodsmower type? ,.... Lash: I think it's the same one they use at the park isn't it? ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 14 Hoffman: They've got two different types. It's either the Woods mower type which mows underneath, which is a lawn tractor type of mower or else one of the Toro's. I don't know which one they use. Lash: It's got a big thing you know. Schroers: A big thing? You mean a... Lash: Yeah. I mean it doesn't look like a mower. It looks like it's got. Hoffman: A deck. Lash: Yeah, a really big one in the front. Schroers: Well okay, if it's got a big deck in the front, I guess I don't see any reason to have that much grass allover the whole top of the trail. They should mow it so it blows away from the trail one way. Turn around. Come back and mow it so it blows away from the trail the other way. I mean it was like cut hay allover the trail. Lash: It was. Yeah, it was. ,.... Schroers: I mean it was really thick. Right on top of the pavement and there always seems to be quite a few branches and stuff down too and I don't know if a sweeper is part of the equipment that the City has here or not. I totally understand what you're saying about the maintenance being over loaded but to operate a little bit more efficiency takes some of the load off. You don't have to go back and do things twice. So if they could mow in a direction to blow the clippings away from the trail rather than on them, you're going to end up with a much nicer trail. Hoffman: Were they clippings or were they... Schroers: It looked to me like somebody when on it with a Woodsmower and a Woodsmower is just a great big industrial thing that will chop down almost anything. It does not do a neat job of cutting but what it's designed for is rough cutting and that is basically rough cutting along there and I thought that that's what happened. Somebody just ran over it with a Woodsmower and just chopped it up and it all landed on the trail. Hoffman: Okay. I'll inquire with whoever. I'll be having a chance to travel either with Dale or Dean in marking the torch run route on Thursday morning early so that's actually part of the trail that we go along there so we'll be marking that area and I'll talk specifically about that a little bit to see. Mady: Are you still coming on Frontier Trail? Good. Most of us can't drive on it either. Lash: I have another question and it kind of ties in with something that Jim Andrews brought up one night. I just heard from someone today a little .~ grumbling about the over 35 league and the number of people that they think .1"'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 15 are in or coming in that are not eligible as far as living or working in Chan. Mady: There are some new faces out there, that's for sure. Lash: And specifically I believe the team they were talking about was Rosemount. That this is a brand new team this year and a lot of the guys don't live or work. Hoffman: At Rosemount? JII""""- Lash: Well they work for Rosemount but they work in Eden Prairie. They don't work at this one but they're coming. But they're on this team. So one night Jim you were bringing up something about fees and we were kind of talking about if we're always running short of money. This is not going to be a popular idea with some people but maybe it's something we can consider as the fields are getting more and more crowded each year. If the person does not live in Chanhassen but is still eligible to play. If they work here or they're grandfathered in or whatever, that their fee then would be higher than a resident. The same as to get into Lake Ann. It's twice as much to get in for a non-resident. Maybe since theY'r~ not contributing by paying their real estate taxes for anything, then maybe we can charge them more and that would be more of an incentive for them to go and play on their own fields if they think we're getting too expensive. Hoffman: Anybody that was here during that discussion a year and a half ago? Lash: I know. I said it wouldn't be popular. Mady: You don't see me saying a whole lot. Lash: No. And I know it will probably stir the pot a little bit. It's not telling them they can't play. Hoffman: That's the exact position I took when we went through that is that the field shortage was getting so bad and that we should eliminate the outside players and or allow them to play, 3 players per team and then they pay, in a number of cities they pay a non-resident fee so they pay... Andrews: We should do the same thing here. Hoffman: I guarantee to that and that went through the Park Commission for a number of meetings and it went to City Council. Schroers: We compromised on that didn't we and decided to allow 4 people outside per team? But then we didn't charge an additional fee. Hoffman: We compromised by grandfathering anybody who was playing in the City of Chanhassen in 1988 is now a legal player and then after that they can have up to 4 outside players as well. "..... If"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 16 Schroers: But we did not charge a fee, an additional fee for the outside players? Hoffman: No. Mady: We probably will be at some point in time. Schroers: Yeah. We'll just have to see what happens when the 3 new fields at Lake Ann come in and where we're at but I really think that if it's justified, we just have to cut down the number of outside players and that's it. The ones from 1988 are grandfathered in but from 1989 on they should not be grandfathered in and I wouldn't see any problem with coming back and saying okay, this year due to field shortages we're only allowing 3 people per team or 2 people per team to live outside of the City. If we justify that by our use, I certainly wouldn't have a problem with it. Hoffman: It's a very difficult. Those types of rules are very difficult to deal with as well. We usually receive 65-70 rosters with 12 to 20 people per roster and trying to keep track of every individual player. If you instate the live or wo,-k rule from the start and you can start fresh which we attempted to do, then you can Pl"obably keep a handle on it. Right now we're really in a big gray area. A lot of that takes place out there. It's self policing to a certain point because the teams do talk amongst each other and they're.. .outside players on a league to league basis... ""'" Lash: But how are you, I mean an average player on a team that you play once or twice a year, how are you supposed to know how many of the guys on their team are eligible? Schroers: Oh, we know that. I mean we've been out there playing for years and years and years and when you see a strange face. You pick it out right away. Where'd that guy come from? Haven't seen him before. Is he old enough? Does he live here? Those are the first questions everybody asks because everybody's saying, well that's not fair. Mady: Especially when you're getting beat. \ Schroers: Bringing in a brand new home run hitter that's not legal, we're not going to go for that so Todd's right, it's self policing. Lash: But do guys have the courage to make a stink? Schroers: Absolutely. The 35 year old league does not, I don't think courage is the right word. I think an excuse to make a stink is better. Mady: I don't think it's as bad as it used to be but in previous years I know it was real bad. 3-4 years ago. Schroers: Yeah, it's was like shut up and play ball you know. Lash: So how do you know when the team comes to register, how do you know ~ how many of the guys? " Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 17 Hoffman: We do a comparison of their 1988 roster to their new Toster. If there are new folks on there, if they live or work in Chanhassen. Lash: So how do you know if they live or work in Chanhassen? Mady: Driver licenses. Hoffman: No, we're not even to that point yet. It's just by what they report on their roster. Mady: If it gets to be a big enough stink, you can. Hoffman: Some cities, Eden Prairie, they collect a paycheck stub or driver license and a number of players go to the driver license bureau to change their address to an apartment number that does not exist in the City of Eden Prairie. Get a new license. Go register and go back and change the address back. It's incredible. Schroers: I know that when you do go east of here they don't make any exceptions. The ~ule is pretty much hard and fast and there is also a penalty if you have an illegal player on your team, that your team is kicked out of the league. ,-. Hoffman: Yeah, we attempted to instate that as well. To instate the $100.00 deposit from each team and if your team is found illegible, then we keep the $100.00 fine. Schroers: I don't think the $100.00 deposit to a team isn't a big deal because you can have 10 guys on a team, each chip in $10.00 and they say who cares? It's only $10.00. But if you would say, if you have an illegal player on your team, that your team is going to be banned from playing in the league, that will be a deterrent. Hoffman: If you get to that point, you need the support... Andrews: A city ordinance to arrest them. Schroers: That's why those Council members get all that pay. Hoffman: Any other commission presentations? Mady: As long as we're talking about softball, at Lake Ann now that we have new parking areas out there, I'd like to see us start enforcing the no parking in the driveways and grass. Now I realize we probably can't enforce it this year but we've got to begin that education process of telling those guys you can't park there. There are places to park and by golly if you can't walk that extra half a block to park in a legal spot, then you shouldn't even be playing out here. I'm tired of trying to drive through some of these areas. It's just ridiculous. I mean you've got about a 10 foot opening. If we had a problem out there and try to get an ambulance in, it's just a mess. I would like to see us begin that ~ education process with letters out to each one of the teams this year asking to inform their people. Telling them that next year they'll be Park and Rec Commission Meeting "..., June 26, 1990 - Page 18 ,..... ,.... informed at the league meetings, the pre-season league meetings and then in the first 2 weeks of the season the public safety individuals will do warnings and from that point forward they will be ticketed period. We've got to get this place cleaned up. We're been talking about it fOl- 5 years and now we've got adequate parking out there. We should at least be making them park where they belong instead of on the grass and the driveways. It's ridiculous. Thank you. TRAIL PLAN, MARK KOEGLER. Mady: Okay, the last thing is the trail plan with Mark Koegler unless anyone else has anything else. Koegler: If I may, you recall there was a joint meeting 4 weeks ago or there abouts with City Council and at that session I think some good comments were heard about some potential changes. What we're going to do this evening was take a little agenda time and maybe a little more than 3 minutes and focus on, if you have comments specifically on what changes you would like to see made. We will make those and then bring a draft of the plan back to you for a comprehensive review. At that meeting there was discussion of trails be appropriate along major thoroughfares in the city. There was also discussion that there might be some interest in obtaining easements in certain areas. 'Not that they would be developed now but that they would be available in the future. That kind of brings to mind a question that if you're going to take easements, where do you take them? What governs where you take them which begins to say, do you have maybe a plan that's phase I that is major thoroughfares and do you have an ultimate kind of plan that says this is what we'd like to achieve in 20 years or 30 years so you know where you're getting your easements. Some of the other things that were talked about. Questions I guess that I have back to the Commission regarding nature trails. Should those be designated on the plan and if so, where? I think there's a couple of philosphies that you could look at there. There seemed to be major corridors that at least from my perception there was pretty much unanimous agreement that someday warranted a nature trail and Bluff Creek corridor was one of those. Beyond that I think there's a couple philosophies that you can support. One is that maybe nature trails are appropriate in other areas and you designate them. The other would be that nature trails are appropriate within the boundaries of parks such that targeting hypothetically Lake St. Joe. If there's ever park property acquired out there, there's on the west side of that lake there's wonderful opportunities for nature trails. If you've ever been in that area. You could argue that those trails should be in the park rather than around the lake impacting private property and so forth so I think that's another philosophy you may want to give some thought to. And then finally I guess I elude to maybe the plan needs to be a little bit more specific with regard to what the City's policy is on trails and particularly on the placement of trails. In many areas it serves well to have access points off cul-de-sacs to allow people to get into parks where you have extremely long block situations. Presumably if there's adequate notice and the people know what they're buying when they buy the lot, that works well. If they don't know, then they come and see you afterwards and they're not happy campers. That is a common subdivision technique in any community you go into that many times the only way to get into a park for a Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ June 26, 1990 - Page 19 half mile area, whatever is with one of these access points. So is that an acceptable solution still? I think in general the tone was let's try to avoid in all cases trails that go between private lot lines. It causes friction with people using their backyards and wanting to add decks and whatever it might be. So I think all we're really after tonight is a fairly brief discussion on some of your general philosophical thoughts. Where do you want to go with this? It's clear that there needs to be a scaling down of what was envisioned as a first phase. In my own mind it's a little less clear as to what you want to do. Do you still want an ultimate plan? And that could be totally explained in the text that that is a long range plan. Whether that's 20 years. What direction do you want to proceed and we'll set about to revise that and bring that back to you. "'" Andrews: I think we should still retain the ultimate goal. There was a lot of discussion about the joint meeting that we should or should not. I think it is important to have an ultimate goal so that we do have a puzzle where all the pieces do fit together as developments proceed in our community. I also agree that we should look at perhaps a smaller Phase I that's doable in a length of time that, at least for me personally, I think for some of the other members of the commission here that we can deal with a project that's small enough to see it from beginning to end so it's not constantly in a state of change and state of planning but it gets into a state of actual construction. I think it's going to be difficult to prioritize because in a lot of the areas that we desparately want trails are also areas that are the most difficult to acquire the property. I don't know how we're going to deal with that. To have a trail along TH 101 INhich is an area that we desparately need is a great idea but from what I've been told, it's basically a physical impossibility that it's going to happen until TH 101 is d)-amatically improved and there is apparently no even wild guess as to when that might happen. So it's a very difficult problem of wishing what we want and making happen what's possible. Mady: I had a couple thoughts. Kind of taking off on Jim's thought there on TH 101 is I'd like to see on TH 101 north and I think that's where the big problem is really is north. South isn't bad in most places because it. isn't developed yet but in north, I'd like to see us do in the next year, do a feasibility study on the north because there may be an opportunity in some areas. What I'm thinking specifically is in the farthest north area maybe where we could at least poll a couple blocks on either side of. Andrews: Kurvers? """ Mady: Not Kurvers. Further down. Where you can get people into the park. North Lotus Lake Park. That might be doeable. I know where you get on the curve up here, a skyhook is about the only way it works and they haven't invented those yet. So I think we need to find out if there are pieces that are doable and how much and how that all impacts. I think we can learn that. A Phase I concept is great. Something that's, Phase I probably, the way we're going now, a 5 year plan type of deal and a 5 year plan means the points of Minnewashta, CR 17, TH 101 north and south. Really only about 4, maybe 4 or 5, 6 roads. Andrews: Collectors... ""'" ,.... ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 20 Mady: When we get into the 20 year or the forever future plan, I think still the whole concept, the whole deal still works. It doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be done now. It doesn't mean it's going to be dona 15 years from now. It's just as opportunities are presented, they should be reviewed and it's still an ultimate goal for the City and I don't think that's a bad idea. On new development, we may have been more aggressive than we needed to be. I think what happens there is we took a look at the survey 3 years back and saw that 78% of the people, whatever it was wanted trails badly and geez thought maybe we need them. We need them allover the place and we need them now. We jumped allover. Maybe what we need is what we built, similar to what we've built and I'm thinking of streets such as Carver Beach Road and Laredo here that are, I'm not sure what the term is on the traffic plan but they're kind of a collector type of street. They're not, just because they're not a thru street but they're more than a thru street. They're more, i don't know what the term is but there is a term for them I'm sure. I would see that in new development, those are the type of streets where we'd need to build them right away because that's where all your traffic is and then the thru streets that are more residential quiet streets, well if there's a park on them, then I see where ~Je need to but if there's not, I can see where we don't need to do something maybe initially anyway. Maybe easements is the route to go with some areas but I think there's still important areas to be actively pursuing. Schroers: I think that it is important that we do have a master plan laid out for what we would like to see. In the past we were pretty firm in our belief that all the trails should be off road trails and we should be consistent and I think that is the ideal situation. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal work and I think it's maybe unreasonable to expect that we can accommodate that. What I would like to see us do is try and be more reasonable and where it is just too expensive to put in off street trail, look at putting on street trail and to prioritize our progress or our Phase I according to it's feasibility. I guess what I'm saying is that I would like to see us go to work on something that we can get accomplished. Taking advantage of utility easements and road improvements. As long as it's going to make a connection in our overall plan. If it's reasonable and affordable to do it, let's prioritize and make those types of areas Phase I so that we get on with the construction and get the trails going rather than continually being in a planning stage. Did I lose anyone there? Lash: Is this getting any less gray or is this just, this isn't getting a lot clearer for me. Koegler: I've got a couple of specific follow-up questions. Lash: Okay. I guess I can agree with some of the things that, some of the points brought up here. I think some of them were very good. I tend to disagree Larry with your on street. I'm just not comfortable with those. To me I feel like, and I've walked on Lake Lucy Road you know where the line is painted there and it's sort of like it gives people a false sense of security because there's this line painted there. You're suppose to figure you're a little safer and you won't get run over and that's not Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ June 26, 1990 - Page 21 going to stop somebody from running over the line or running you over. I mean I would personally, if we're going to have them off street, like you said would be the first choice but if we can't get it off street, I'm just not comfortable. Schroers: Can I respond to that? Lash: Yeah. Schroers: I ride bicycle and jog a lot and I would just rather have that on street than nothing because people are going to try to get to where they \~ant to go to anyway and when you have nothing, then instead of having the cars come 3 feet from you, they're coming 6 inches from you and all you've got is a loose gravel area if you're riding your bicycle and you're going off in there and you could conceiveably fall down and fall into the path of a car where at least you have that much more space if it's off street. What I'm saying is, an on street trail is better than no trail. Lash: But you like the off street a lot better? ~ Schroers: oh yes, definitely. But the cost involved with off street trail is just going to prohibit us from having trails in some places so it's kind of like settling for second best but it's definitely safer having a bike lane than not having a bike lane in an area where people use it. If you get to, you go down to whel-e the county line is or a little bit beyond and then it stops and there is no bike lane up past the Catholic Church there in Excelsior and it gets a lot more uncomfortable as soon as you get out of that bike lane. Lash: Okay. And then I think we did talk about a feasibility study on TH 101 didn't \~e? Mady: Yeah, but we've been bouncing it around. ,-. Lash: Yeah. I think \~e've discussed that and agreed that that's something ~e need to pursue... I mean I think it was at the meeting it was fairly clear that I think we were all in pretty general agreement that we want to try to pursue the major corridors but I think that's where we need to have everybody sit down and figure out what they think are the major corridors and prioritize the order you'd like to see them done and then get back together and see how much we can agree on. On which ones they are and within how many years we'd like to see that accomplished and I have somewhat of a problem with some of these things because if it's a 20 or a 15 or 50 year or forever year plan, I have a problem with some of these because how are we going to know in 50 yeal-s what's going to be there and if that's where we want to have the trail or if that's where the road is still going to be in 50 years or if it's going to be 2 blocks over or whatever and then our plan is all messed up and we've taken easements maybe where we didn't need them and don't have them where we do need them so I have a problem with having it be a 50 year forever lifetime kind of plan. Jim, I was following what you were saying as far as in neighborhoods taking easements on what you consider to be a collector, whatever. Like on Laredo out here by the school, that makes sense. You have kids walking to and ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 22 from school. That makes sense but I think the only way we can do that is when the plan for the development comes in and we see how it's laid out and look at it and see which street in it is probably the main route for people that are going to be going in and out of the development. So to look at this plan of Chanhassen now, this map and say well we want a trail right here. Well how do we know that's where there's going to be the main. Mady: See I think you're missing the trip. when I'm talking about collectors, that's obviously for new developments and ~e don't know where those will be. They go in the verbage in the plan. Lash: Okay, but then that's sort of leaving. Mady: Because we don't know. Lash: Right. "".... Mady: The plan here is simply, these are existing streets that we know about but a plan is always looking towards the future and you don't know what the future is so like your comment on if the road gets moved, well at least if you put it on the plan that you want a trail on that street, they move the road. They obviously when they review the plan, the plan that's already there, when they pull the change and they will see that that road was planned to have it and know to do it instead of not having it on a plan. Then you're starting with, well what do we need to do with this? At least you have it in writing that that's what you want to do and then they just transfer it over with it. Lash: But are you saying to me that everywhere there's one of these lines on this map that there is an existing road? Mady: Most of it, the one from Lake Ann, the Lake Minnewashta across the property there where that's an utility easement, those are pre-planned. A lot of these easements already exist. Lash: Yeah, but what about this over here. This isn't a road ~s it? By Lake Minnewashta coming down here? Schroers: Isn't that the one from the Arboretum that goes into the Lake Minnewashta Park there? It's suppose to cross from the Arboretum and then go up into Lake Minnewashta Park? Mady: I know that road got discussed this year. The one right along Minnewashta there. I don't know how that ultimately ended up. Lash: Dogwood right here? Mady: Yeah. Lash: But there's no road here I don't think. Well yeah, here's Tanadoona Drive but then going north. Is that a road there? ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting JIiII""'. June 26, 1990 - Page 23 ,..... Koegler: That Pemton development is on the south side there. There physical connection of the street due to grade. If memory serves me, is an easement connection there which is why that line was originally in that location. is no there drawn Lash: Okay. And then right in this area which I think is Saddlebrook. mean it's now Saddlebrook but this had to have been drawn before Saddlebrook was put in there. I Mady: No, Saddlebrook came out in front of us. See we looked at Saddlebrook probably 3 years ago. Lash: It doesn't show any lots on there. Koegler: This is an old base map. You're correct in that the overlay has been over the top of it was meant to reflect what's in place in Saddlebrook. It may not be 100% accurate. I'll have to check that. Lash: So are you saying that all the lines on here are on roads? Koegler: They're not necessarily. The vast majority of them are. An example of one that's not is if you look over at Carver Beach. The beach portion. Some of that's on the street but as you proceed northward towards Pleasant View, portions of that are either off street or in reality would veer into the Fox Chase development. It has another name now perhaps and get on up into the brown area so that one is exempt... The one that was pointed to a moment ago between Lake Ann and the park, the line that's on there is kind of a generalized line. It's meant to follow the utility alignment. There was some down on the south side of Chanhassen Estates for example that was meant to go through the parkland and eventually follow the creek and then connect to Lake Susan so there's another segment. This map is, it's outdated in several ways. There are some street changes that I think need to mandate some trail changes and a graphic example of that is TH 101. The City's planning efforts and investment now are to reroute that essentially to Market Blvd. to intersect with TH 5. I don't think you need two parallel links there that close together. Presumably that would be shifted over to the Market Blvd. construction would come off of what is now TH 101. There are some other potential redundancies on the west side of Lake Susan where we use County 17 that also use the area to the east of there and obviously in a tighter market, tighter dollar situation, you're not going to build both of those links. Your priorities would tell you that that doesn't make a lot of sense. Mady: But those were developed back when we were looking at the Comp Plan. Andrews: I have a couple, if Jan's done. Lash: Yeah, I'm done. Let's just keep going. Andrew~: I'd just like to see funding as part of the ongoing discussion too. A lot of this, it's pie in the sky if we don't have any potential way ,..... to fund it and I think ltJe need to be advised as to potential sources of funding so that, you know we agree that north TH 101 is a high demand area " 1 ) Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 24 for a trail but it's probably one of the most expensive areas we could pick to try to put a trail in. If we prioritize it as the biggest need for the most expensive, it may not, it's not feasible. Economically feasible. So we have a dilemma between the trails that are the highest demand but the least economically feasible versus the trails that are in less of a demand but more economically feasible. We'll have to balance that as a commission as to really being which ones are most important from an overall feasibility. ,.... Koegler: Part of what we'll come back to you along with graph text will be some budget information in terms of what funds are available now based upon what we're projecting for building permit growth. What's going to be happening in the next 5 years. I think that ties into that. Another thing that we're playing with is trying to break out TH 101 is maybe not a good example. Minnewashta Pai-kway is a very good example. One that's going to be rebuilt in the near future. What's the cost of trail there if it's done in conjunction with the street pi-oject? Or if the street project doesn't happen for some reason, what's the cost of putting the trail in? Looking at it both ways because that has a big impact as you pointed out. TH 101 is another area where ideally if you regrade the road and built a road to another standard and put a trail in simultaneously. I like Jim's idea and I don't know that it's been really explored before. You know is there a northern segment that makes sense that is a piece of it that will connect at least to the segment that Eden Prairie has going off of Duck Lake Trail area. To at least get some movement along TH 101 for as many people as is practical to do so. Andrews: From what Kurver's point northward there's not a lot of property owners to deal with. Once you get down close to town, you've got about 87 property owners. Mady: All within 30 feet. Andrews: Yeah, they have like a 30 feet of frontage and about 50 feet between their picture window and the highway. Koegler: And they have 5 driveways and 13 mai~boxes. Mady: All within 100 feet of each other. Koegler: And the grade down there is extremely difficult. Andrews: We could always put in a subway. Maybe that would be cheaper. I was just thinking, it would probably be a lot cheaper just to have a full duty city bus thing and people could call for rides. It would probably cost us less money to do that than to build a trail. Lash: A lot of exercise too. Mady: Maybe Hennepin County will want to put one of their. ~ Andre...s: L~ght rail ti-ansit. That's what we need. ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 25 lash: Another thing I should say is, when Dawne called me I mentioned that this was on too and I asked her if she had any input that she wanted on and she said that she would definitely be in favor of continuing to keep this nature trail along Bluff Creek. She thinks that's something that you know really important and she'd like to see that remain. Then do we want to discuss nature trails more than that? Mady: Does anybody have any ideas outside of the circles on here of other nature trails? lash: You know, I guess if we're looking at this, some of these that we have that are around lakes and in some of those areas, I guess I don't know. I wouldn't have a problem with some of those being nature trails. ,.... Andrews: Part of my problem is, I just, personally I don't have enough familiarity with the whole city to know what's out there. Maybe what we could do is maybe divide among oUl-selves a certain area to go out and look around. I don't have the time nor the memory to look at the whole city to think well this might be a good spot or this might not be but maybe as part of our committee work or work group we could carve this up into sections and say well you take this area. You go out and see if you see any new ideas or new areas for trails or walkways. A lot of these things you guys talk about. I can't envision them at all. I have no idea what you're talking about. I think it's a great idea. lash: That's why we live in different areas. Schroers: I see a lot of potential for multi-use trail on the whole, pretty much the entire new service area that they just put in and I don't kno~~ why those trails can't serve as nature trails as well as a cross countl"y ski trail. Lash: What are you talking about the new service area? Schroers: runs there. trail/cross through the The new major sewer collector that they put in. The one that There's no reason that they couldn't be designated nature country ski trail and just multi-purpose trail. I mean it goes countryside. Mady: This one? Schroers: Well this one here and then where it goes down past Lake Susan and Rice Marsh and down in there. That trail could serve a lot of different functions. Lash: See that's something that we could hopefully get because if you're not, what's the major expense of doing something like that? Koegler: Doing the nature trails versus? Lash: Yeah. "... Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,.... Ju ne 26, 1990 - Page 26 Koegler: Just establishing grade and some kind of appropriate walking turf. Whether that's to be a mowed area or whether that's to be whatever surfacing but obviously is much, much less costly than putting in a bituminous ribbon to r-ide bikes on and skate on and whatever else. Lash: So maybe one of our" things ~Je should kick around a little bit is on major collections go for off street bituminous things that get people off of the road but in a lot of the other areas, try to opt for a nature trail at least to get us started so we've got some collectors. You're not going . to be going on collectors allover town you know and it's not going to be all handicapped accessible but if you'r"e walking or Jogging or something, you could make connections and if it's not a paved trail, that would be okay too. Schroers: On a turf trail you can ride horses. You can ride mountain bikes. You can walk. You can cross country ski on it in the wintertime. You could designate a portion of it for snowmobiling. Snowmobiling and cross country skiing do not go well together but you know, some places you can designate certain areas where it's for cross country skiing only and for other ar-eas where it would fit into, the snowmobile route. A portion of it could be used for snowmobiling. JIll'" Andrews: I'll say one thing. If we as a commission and as a city were able to construct some trail along one of these major busy thoroughfares, I think it'd make it a lot easier to secure future funding. Right now so little of this trail system is really obviously visible from high traffic areas. If we came back for a referendum for future funding of a larger project, it would sure be nice to say look it. We did this. It was a success. 'There it is. People are usi ng it. No~.J let's expand on it. I get frustrated because it seems like this is a project that has no beginning and no middle and no end. I think by breaking into these smaller sections, maybe we could have some small successes and get the backing that we need to get a little bit more ambitious. Koegler: The construction of TH 5 will help the cause eventually also. When that has a trail all the way through as much of Chanhassen as they get done and then on through Eden Prairie. That will be a very visible link obviously. Lash: It will be a connector to any of the others that we can get going north and south. Koegler: Yeah and the advantage of that is right now that TH 5 really is the major east/west feed that really pretty well goes through the middle of the developed area of the city. LJhat's likely to be the developed area of the City through at least the year 2000 so you've got that spine running right through the middle that you can connect to and at least have eastern access if nothing else. ,.... Schroers: At what point Mark do you include signage? I mean does that go in right along with the construction or is that something that you have to budget for separately? Signage does help a lot in defining, letting people know that there is a trail there and where it goes. " Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 27 Koegler: It should be part of any construction. One of the project details just as is the grading for the trail and the restoration and everything else should be signage. It clearly should be part of it when it goes in and get people to use it as fast as possible I would think is your primary goal so that you can promote safe useage. Schroers: So you normally just include signage in the cost of the construction of the trail? Koegler: Yes. It's one of the cost items in the project. Just as street signs are in any road improvement project. There are signage manuals that are involved in that too. Absolutely. Lash: I guess another thing we need to make sure we keep in mind, going back to your comments earlier tonight about the trail by Lake Ann and they mowed it and it vJas all full of g.-ass and it was a mess. And Todd's commetns about the maintenance people being swamped and back logged already. You know I think we really need to try and keep in mind what we're doing here and what maintenance costs are going to be to the Cit~ in the end. I mean it's not only the cost of the trail and putting it in but it's forever then the commitment to having a bunch of guys maintaining them and figuring out how much of a cost that's going to be to the City than no rno..Jed t)-ail. If1" f<oegler: That is the drawback. Unless it gets heavy enough useage that the turf stays down to some deg.-ee, mowing those if you get miles of trails obviously is quite time consuming. Schroers: What seems to be happening along with prioritizing sections of trail and that sort of thing is also prioritizing work projects for the maintenance. We're dealing with that, the exact same issue. We have got more to do than we can possibly do so we just have to hit the high spots. Pick out what's important. Do that and other things have to wait until you have the time or until budgets are adjusted and more people are put on to deal ~'Jith it. Lash: Yeah, but you hate to spend the money doing the grading and all of that to make it nice and have enough guys to mow it at the beginning of the season and then that's it. Nobody can use it for the rest of the year. I'd hate to see us get into a spot like that. Schroers: It doesn't have to be mowed like your grass every week. You can get by with mowing it like once every 3 weeks and it still looks like a trail. You can still see that it's been mowed and you can still walk through it reasonably well if you want to and there certainly would be no problem riding a horse through it or mountain bikes can go through it. It doesn't have to be meticulously manicured but the most important thing on the turf trail is the initial preparation. What we feel works the best is just going over it with farm implements. Farm machinery and run a plow through it. Plow it. Then disc it. Then drag it. Then you run your seeder over that and by the time you get done with like those 4 processes, ,..., you have a reasonabl y level, flat surface and it war ks out pretty ~<Jell. But if you just go out and mow it as it is, that's not really acceptable. """"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 28 You get a pretty rough course. Hoffman: A newest note as far as the bright spot in our park maintenance division is that on this Monday Charlie Siegel started as a new full time maintenance person. As a 6 month park maintenance full time during the summer months and 6 month mechanic fOl- the public works department during the winter. So now ~Je do have Dale, Dean and Charlie Eiler who's doing the majority of the downtown maintenance and then now Charlie Siegel who will be the third full time staff person for the park maintenance as well as the three part time summer maintenance. People that do the majority of the ballfield grading and park... Good news huh Larry? Schroers: Yes. Lash: Mark, maybe what you're talking about coming back with an updated map here. Is that what you said earlier? """"" Koegler: Yeah, updated map and text as well as some cost data. That will be, we did that quite some time ago and there was a fair amount of cost estimation that went into the original Phase I plan but it was all tied to the fact that this pot of money was there in the referendum which obviously almost made it but didn't. Now no effort has been made since then to say okay here's what these costs are. Here's more realistically what our resources are. Here's what we can do in 5 years. Here's what we can do in maybe 1 year so we can show people we're making progress. Andrews: My biggest problem is I'm a little bit ignorant of how funds could be raised. I mean I look at the north TH 101 project and I have no concept of the money but I know from kind of a sense that that's got to be incredibly expensive to consider that as a stand alone project. I look at something like Lake Minnewashta. There we've got much more of an economic opportunity. Like I said before, it's the need versus feasibility and you made a comment earlier about how we will have an existing east/west spine really fairly quickly in our overall plan. I mean it will be here probably the first thihg will happen really and it would be important for us to look at those north/south linkages. The key ones and if we could get those in place, it will look good because we can show something that we've accomplished something and then we can stal-t expanding off of those key north/south connections then later. I guess I feel like what's next. How are we going to make progress although I feel like we're treading water and not going anywhere. Are we in the position now where we're going to hear back or are we supposed to take some action ourselves here? Koegler: Well it generally is easier to get discussion on items if I bring you something to critique. By all means if you want to divide up and take a piece and look at an area of the community, do so as that would be helpful but I think probably taking these comments that I've noted plus the comments from the previous meeting and let us come back with a draft revised plan that maybe is a Phase I tied to some resources and what they can be accomplished. You may disagree and you may change our priorities but that may not change the budget a whole lot. If we move it from CR 17 ~ to Galpi n, that probably doesn't have a major impact necessar 11 y on the budget. If we move it from CR 17 to TH 101, obviously it does. But let us ".... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 29 take a shot at it perhaps. Andrews: I looK at the map here and I think well, there's probably what, 5 or 6 potential north/south major routes and more than likely ultimately we'd want to have something on almost everyone of those over a 20 year plan at least so we could probably look at, I guess I look at that as let's prioritize those 6 or 7 potential north/south routes as our Phase I plan. I don't know if anybody else agrees with that or not. The other comment I had was we're talking about the trails versus, I get confused here. Trails Vel"SUS paths. And we talk about so many different types of uses for nature trails, I wonder if we're trying to make them a feature that's so versatile that it's impossible to Pl"ovide, to go ahead and provide a nature trail. I mean if it's going to be horses and snowmobiles and, is it possible to have a trail that can really suit all those needs or are we more in a position where a certain set of nature trails is going to be designated as horse trails and another section would be horses would not be allowed? Is it feasible to have a nature trail that really can suit all those uses at once? Lash: Generally I wouldn't think any nature trails that would be north of TH 5 would be suitable for horses because most people don't have horses north of TH 5 so you'd have to drive, trailer your horse up north of TH 5. ,.... Mady: You do have in the Minnewashta area and in Lake Lucy there's some st! 11 but. Lash: Yeah, but very few. I think the majority of them are south of TH 5 down closer to Lake Riley. Schroers: You know just because you have a multi-purpose trail, you don't have to designate it for something specifically and it cel"tainly can, a multi-use trail certainly can serve as a nature trail. If it runs in the area of town, if you take this, what do you call that? Lash: Interceptor? Schroers: That sewer line. Mark, do you have a name for that? Koegler: Lake Ann Interceptor. Schroers: The Lake Ann Interceptor, okay. Between TH 41 and Lake Ann, if you had mowed trail thl"Ough there, there's all kinds of vegetation, birds, animals that you could see walking on that trail early in the morning or late in the evening and of course the plants are there all day long that anyone can see if they want to. You can observe all kinds of nature walking along there and that wouldn't be harmed in any way by someone going through there on cross country skis or on a mountain bike or even if it was snowmobiled on. You can go on any snowmobile trail around and walk down it and you're not going to go very far without seeing deer tracKs. I mean the wildlife just more or less adjusts. YOLl don't chase them out of the area just because a trail's there. In fact sometimes they're drawn to the trail ~ because it's kind of an open area where they'll come to gl"aZe and get away from insects and that sort of thing. Then on the other hand, if the turf Park and Rec Commission Meeting ,.... June 26, 1990 - Page 30 trail goes right through a residential neighborhood where it's all developed around it, then it wouldn't lend itself much to being a nature trail but where it runs. Bet~~een TH 41 and Lake Ann and down along Lake Susan and along past Rice Marsh there, that would suit just about any need that you want to use it for. Andrews: I guess the main thing is if we've got the easement, we can do something with it. If we don't have it, it's a waste. Schroers: Do we have any kind of easement along that interceptor? Koegler: I am not sure. I don't believe at the present time there is an easement. It would have to be secured. I'm not 100% sure on that though. We'll have to check. Mady: Mark, did you have any specific questions? You had mentioned you had some. "... Koegler: I think you got into those. I had some questions on nature trails and I think you kind of led discussion into that because that was one of the sreas of concern I had as to how that was to be handled. Some of that to a certain degree is going to be self policing. If you look at that extreme southern Bluff Creek area. You put a nature trail in there and the hardy souls are the only ones that are going to make it up those grades. That's not going to be aski trail and it's probably not going to be horse accessible in many of those areas. It's really pretty rugged. As you get up further north, yes. There's mixed, probably mixed opportunity there. Schroers: Also, if you just have a 2 foot wide path that's designated as a nature trail, you're going to get very little use on it. Very little use. There's going to be a few people that are going to go out there and want to look at the plants and the birds and that sort of thing but most of the people that are looking for recreation are not going to use it and I think that would be a waste of a trail. And're~~s : get any, I agree. I think you need about 30-40 feet. 20 feet at minimum I would say. It's pretty wide to Schroers: Yeah. Mady: Okay, is there anything else? Lash: When you bring this back, is there a way then like the little circle things show nature trail and then the other one is off street which to me says bituminous. ".... Koegler: I think we need some obviously refined categories in there also because you know, some of these are realistically we can peg some of these as off street and some of them probably can't be as your discussion has pointed out tonight. I think it becomes an issue then of do we try to do that eventually as a lower priority so there's something that's better than nothing. Yeah, we'll look at breaking that down. "..., Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 31 Lash: And when you're saying nature trail, when we were talking about a mowed trail, is that a nature trail? Koegler: Yes. Lash: l~e tal ked about 17 di ffe,ent, L.Je call them 17 di ffe,ent thi ng'3 and I don't know for sure... Schroers: It would probably be easier if we we,e talking about concrete, bituminous and turf. Those a,e the three...most categorized. Where concrete is in development and bituminous would be along majo, collectors and tU1-f. Lash: Maybe those would be the three diffe,ent things that you could show the"s. Mady: Standa,dized t,ails. lflii". Koegler: The only place I would assume we'll probably show concrete is clearly in areas where it's warranted yet it tends to be more urban. I'm assuming that we're not going to get to the degree of detail that every sidewalk, lineal foot of sidewalk in the city shows up on this plan because I don't thinki this is more promoting a large, scale, higher useage a,eas. Not walks that are in place or might be in place in front of somebody's house. Mady: Especially in new development. We handle that through your verbage as to where you put them in a development and then when a development comes in, when they lay their streets out for the development plan, they know what they have to do. Andrews: What I'd like to see are the high traffic, the collectors and the connectors I guess is what I'd call them. You',e 1-ight, you don't need eve,y neighborhood. It'd just be such a tangled mess it'd look like somebody dropped spaghetti on the map. Mady: It does already but. Koegler: We'll put together some ,evised language. Revised maps for you to review and then try to get some dollar figures together for a real wo,ld scenario. ,.,.... Mady: I just have 2 comments that kind of go along with the trail idea. Ove, the last 3 years whenever we're talking about trails and sidewalks, for winter we've told people that the City would not requi,e you to shovel your sidewalk that went by your house. It has been made known to us that the City has on the books an ordinance that ,equires you to if you have a sidewalk out in front of your property, you have to shovel it. Since we've been saying fo, the last 3 years, the City as a whole has been saying that no, that's not the case. I think the City needs to address that ordinance soon and my thoughts on it a.e, you don't shovel it unless it's maybe in front of commercial property or it is a particula, segment that is going to be named specifically in the o.dinance. ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 32 Lash: I would think that most of the places where there are sidewalks, they were put there specifically for a reason and then if they're not shoveled, then you can't use them. My prime example would be Laredo by the school. That's there so kids can walk on the sidewalk to school and then it's not shoveled. Mady: The City shovels that. Lash: The City does that all the way along? Mady: Yeah. The comment was made specifically about the downtown area. So I think the area should state that in those areas, and maybe it's and this is just brainstorming but in front of commercial establishments. If there's a sidewalk, then the commercial establishment is responsible for it which is kind of how it's usually handled. In front of residential areas, if the City deems they're important enough to be shoveled, then the City takes care of it which is how the City does it now anyway. Schroers: I guess I don't see a problem with asking people to shovel the sidewalk in front of their house. ".... Mady: I don't either but we've already told people for the last 3 years that we're not going to require it and now we find the ordinance has been on the books for how many years. who knows. It's an old brdinance so we just need to get consistent. Andrews: Perhaps what we need is something in the paper in the fall advising of the ordinance, if it doesn't get changed. Mady: Yeah, I think people should be informed of what it is. Schroers: Everybody wants something done but they all want somebody else to do it for them you know. Get out and shovel your walk. Andrews: What's that little thing, don't tax me. Tax the guy behind the tree. t1ady: A couple other items. Somebody mentioned skateboarding. Everybody has read all 'the letters to the editor in the Minneapolis paper concerning, there are a number of suburbs who've banned skateboarding. Just to make you guys aware, if we ever think of doing that, you'll have this place just as full as you did with the softball teams so don't do it while I'm going to be hel"a. Schr6ers: Skateboarding, roller blading, we tried. We can't stop it. Lash: They tried that in Chaska. Mady: Did they really? I don't see it as that big of a problem yet. Then Lake Lucy Road trail being on street. Maybe we need to talk about someday, and I've talked about this before, having an asphalt curb installed on that ~ line painted and then with openings wherever the SeWel"S are so the water can get off the street into there but otherwise there is some bituminous """'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting June 26, 1990 - Page 33 curb along that whole thing that separates the road and it's painted so there's a little bit more safety in there. I don't know if that's important or not but it's an idea to throw out. Schroers: I think that would be a hazaid to bikBiS. Andrews: What about putting in these raised reflectors that they can flop, fold down? Mady: I don't know if it's a problem or not but I know I would hate to be out there. Lash: You know those dots they have in California on the freeway? Mady: I know the problem is in Minnesota that always gets pulled up from the snowplows. That's why we don't have them. ler: With an extra maintenance guy, you can put them back every year right. ,.... Mady: Hopkins is putting those in though. The kind Jim's talking about. The ones that fold down. They put some of those in on their streets. I just looked at them and was amazed. Maybe they have some real super cement. Those were my only comments. If anybody has anything else for discussion otherwise we can go home. Lash: Will you check on that fire lane thing for me Todd? (C, nd'( e~~s: : ha.id ~,\iO)N k I want to make one comment about Lori. she put in and appreciate what she did. I'm going to miss the Schroers moved, Lash seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9=30 p.m.. Prepared by Nann Opheim ,....