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PRC 1990 09 25 - ~ CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING SEPTEMBER 25, 1990 Chairman Mady called the meeting to order at 7:32 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Dawne Erhart, Jim Andrews, Wendy Pemrick, Curt Robinson, Jim Mady, Larry Schroers and Jan Lash STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Recreation Supervisor; and Jerry Ruegemer, Program Specialist APPOINT ACTING CHAIR: Andrews moved, Pemrick seconded to appoint Larry Schroers as Acting Chair for the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Mady moved, Andrews seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated August 21, 1990 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. RECONSIDER LOCATION OF PARK. LAKE RILEY HILLS. Public Present: Name Address John Klingelhutz 350 East Hwy. 212, Chaska (The recording of the meeting was started at this point in the discussion.) "..... Mady: ...we would have taken the land first and money second so. But this looks like a good balance. Schroers: Are there any other questions or input from the commissioners? Lash: I have one. I guess it's a question and a comment. In the recommendation Todd I didn't see anything, and I don't know if I just missed it, about putting trail along Lyman Blvd.. Hoffman: With the remainder of the pieces, part of the easement, it... When Mark brought his recommendation last time, he talked about recording the easement. That was omitted in here but we would require the trail easement along Lyman Blvd. and then as additional pieces would be looked at and the park is starting to be developed in 4 or 5 years and we start taking a closer look at each individual piece along Lyman Blvd., try to connect those trail segments so we can get that put in. Yes, that's correct. We would want to require a trail easement on Lyman Blvd. as well as over at Riley. Lash: Okay, that was I guess my main concern and my understanding, when we had some discussions about the Comprehensive Plan and how trails specifically, how we were going to accomplish some of these things that we wanted to try to accomplish when we were prioritizing, I guess I kind of thought my understanding was that we'd try and take easements in a lot of areas and collect as many fees as possible but then put them on the busier roads. I was thinking this looked kind of backwards. I mean we weren't ,..... asking for easements or:: trail on Lyman but then we were putting in the ::rr' "", Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 2 ~ sidewalks on the two residential streets and I was thinking that that seemed like it was backwards from the way I thought we were trying to head with, take the easements on the residential and the trails on the County Roads. Hoffman: Yeah. It's the oplnlon of at least myself and the folks in engineering that in a new subdivision when you're installing brand new roads, going ahead and putting the sidewalks in at the same time, it's a cost saver. Let the people know up front who are moving in that there will eventually be a sidwalk in their front yard because it's there already when they're looking at their lots and then again the piece on Lyman, we would just take the easement at this time because it's not a new road. It's not just being constructed and we don't have the means to connect that piece in a timely manner for a few years. You're correct, we have talked about that in the past in some of the other subdivisions. Not taking the money there and putting it, or just banking it and taking a look at some larger collector routes and possibly getting them trails first before we go ahead and put sidewalks in subdivisions. But as far as getting them in and having the available for the future, at the time the subdivision was initially, the ground was broken and the streets are laid in...that's the time to put those sidewalks in. Schroers: Are you saying Todd that you want to add that easement to your recommendation right now? ,,-... Hoffman: Correct. Along Lyman Blvd. to Lake Riley. Mady: Did we not put those easements in last time around? Hoffman: Yeah. They were put into that. Mady: Our recommendation last month was they were already in there so now all we're really doing is re-evaluating the site of the park itself. Hoffman: Correct. Schroers: Do you want that wording in the recommendation to include the easement.? Hoffman: Correct... Other questions from the commissioners? Schroers: If not, is there anything Mr. Klingelhutz would like to add? John Klingelhutz: Not really. I was a little surpri~ed... Mady: Between John and Todd, is it going to be possible for you guys to attempt to straighten out that jag in the park boundary by moving a lot line here or there? Will that be feasible? It'd just make it I think easier for the residents and everyone to do that. Hoffman: That's something we haven't talked about. It's fairly minor... """'" Schroers: If there isn't any further discussion, would someone like to entertain a motion on this? .,.... .IfI""'. "...., Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 3 Mady: Okay, I'll try. I'll move to recommend that the City take Lots 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26 as parkland in subdevelopment along with $90.00 per lot park fee and that a sidewalk be constructed along North Road and West Road in lieu of trail fees. That a trail easement be taking along Lake Riley Road and Lyman Blvd.. Schroers: Is there a second for that? Robinson: I'll second it. Mady moved. Robinson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City require Lots 21. 22. 23, 24. 25 and 26. Block 3, Parcel II be dedicated as parkland. As part of this dedication, the applicant will prepare the site according to a grading plan provided by the City. It is further recommended that the applicant construct a 5 foot wide concrete sidewalk along North Road and West Road and provide a 20 foot trail easement along Lake Riley Road and Lyman Boulevard. In return for these requirements. the applicant will receive a $410.00 credit on park dedication fees per lot and 100% credit on trail dedication fees. The remaining $90.00 per lot park dedication fee will be collected as part of the Building Permit process. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. ACQUISITION OF HANDICAP ACCESSIBLE PLAYGROUND EQUIPMENT. Hoffman: Item 5 is kind of a neat item in the fact that we have an opportunity to purchase the first ever handicap equipment which would be installed in any city park in Chanhassen. As well we have the opportunity to purchase and install a handicap accessible fishing pier...Lake Susan Park. As it states in the report, the amount that is available through the Block Grant situation...available for housing rennovation and that type of thing. The housing situation in Chanhassen...take advantage of that money. The Council acted at their last meeting to reappropriate that money to these two separate individual projects. The fishing pier at Lake Susan and the handicap accessible equipment. In their conversation that evening, they tried to decide which location would be best. At Lake Susan, which is just an up and coming park or at Lake Ann Park which is a proven park and generates a lot of activity and a lot of use and they wanted to determine which park would be the most appropriate site for that equipment. It's my belief that Lake Susan Park, with space available there. The facilities which are currently being installed at Lake Susan, that that park would be, next summer and the few years after that will be just as busy as Lake Ann Park is currently. It's real close to the industrial business and it's going to get a lot of use from there. As well we have the next park shelter, which...constant use by group picnics and that type of thing and we have a lot of space there. If you've been out there recently you've seen the addition to the playground area and there's a lot of space to the south and to the west of that. That area for additional expansion which can be put in future years as more funds become available. I'd still like the commission to discuss the pros and cons on each. . .and once we decide the locations, we'll wor k with the.. .Mar k Koegler is looking at different companies which purchases this type of equipment from and probably go ahead and... ,..... ",.... ;I"""- Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 4 Mady: Todd, not that these aren't both excellent sites but one thought came to mind when I read it was the, as more and more kids ~re being mainstreamed in the schools, I'm not sure if there are any physically handicapped children that require this type of equipment at the school but has City Center Park even been considered? Hoffman: No, it was not considered and that's. Pemrick: Jay Johnson brought it up in the Minutes. Lash: That was my question. And I did a little bit of checking today. I talked with Kathleen Macy at Chan. I checked into this particular thing last spring. I talked with Bob Ostlund from the School District. At that time when we were talking about City Center and putting in new playground equipment and Ed had been talking a lot about handicap accessible things being added to the parks and I thought it would be nice if we could coordinate with the school district. I called Bob Ostlund to ask him if he knew of funding mechanisms that the school district could get so as we put in our phase, they could put in a phase that would make the whole thing nicer and he said there wasn't any. So when I saw this come up in our packet, I was kind of pleasantly surprised because I thought that would be the perfect site. I worked last year with a little boy who next year will be at chan who is in a wheelchair and I watched him last year trying, at the kindergarten center, to get to the playground equipment through pearock. Well, I mean there's no way you could take his wheelchair through there and we sat on the little deck and talked about what we were going to do. He's too heavy for me to carry and I said what do you think we're going to do. We have a problem here and he said, I don't know but I want to play over there. So I said, well we'll have to think about it for a minute and pretty soon I said, do you think you can get over there by yourself? You'll have to crawl and he said I want to try and he crawled. I mean he has no control from the chest down and he crawled all the way through this pearock on his stomach and crawled up on the playground equipment and went down the slide for probably the first time since he was a baby if somebody carried him so it was really, for me it was a very moving and it was a frustrating experience to see what a child like that has to go through. I know he'll be at Chan next year and I know from working at Chan, that there are other kids with special needs there who could definitely benefit from handicap accessible equipment. Kathleen Macy said they'd be thrilled if we'd be able to do something like this and I think if it's at all possible, that should be our first site for consideration because it would definitely get the most use. I don't know what all kind of criteria we have to meet and I don't know if there's a time limit on when we have to order this or what all is involved but that would definitely be my first choice as a site. And I also think with the summer activities of the youth sports going on there, it would be get night time use. So it would be 9 months of the year, daytime use every day and almost every night during the week in the summers. Hoffman: I did miss that in there. I just thought now that Jay mentioned City Center Park. We would need to work on location, the most appropriate location would probably be where the new equipment was installed. No? Lash: No, I think behind the school where the old junky stuff is. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 5 ,.... Hoffman: Back in the corner? Okay, because I haven't talked to Kathleen but some of that equipment is just real outdated... A month from now when the outcome of the referendum on the community center so we could then go forward with full force in creating a new plan for that area and working with the school district. Lash: Does this have to be ordered by the end of the year? Hoffman: No. Lash: So maybe that's something that we could work on even before we know the results of the referendum so when we get the results we could just go with it and not have to worry about things. Mady: We just worry about actually it's being built... That equipment can fit anyplace actually. Lash: And if we could combine with what we think we have in mind for our plan for it, then we'd have this super structure there that would be really nice. Hoffman: $6,000.00, we'll get about a three piece structure. A swing, a slide with some sort of play apparatus. Lash: But then the base has to be. ,.... Hoffman: Hard surface. Lash: Right. Hoffman: We need to take a look at the handicap parking at the school lot and trailways and that type of thing to get to and from the equipment. Mady: Larry? In Hennepin Parks, are you using any of the hard rubber resilient surfaces or anything like that that would be wheelchair accessible? Schroers: We do have an area that is a hard rubber surfacing material and I believe that that would accommodate wheelchairs nicely. The one drawback to that surface is that it's expensive. It gets glued onto a concrete slab so you have to pour a slab and then it's glued and per square yard it is considerably more expensive than fibar material or pearock but I think that it is ultimately a better surface and it certainly would accommodate handicap much better. Also, from experience I can say that it's like anything else. If you want to do it after the fact, you install equipment and then go back and try to make it handicap accessible after that. You've really gone the long way around and spent a lot of money so it's real important I think to get started with it right off the bat on a new project and that seems to be the direction that things are going in all sorts of public areas and I wouldn't be surprised to see it become a requirement at some point in time in the future so I would go with it. Mady: Todd, this is an ongoing funding mechanism. I was wondering, would there be money available after the first of the year that maybe we could ~ buy the equipment now and then by February or March there might be Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 6 C(?,e~, e'T/t1A/$ ,... additional funds available that we could gather for say the surfacing material? Hoffman: It's not a guaranteed fund for us but in the opinion of Paul Krauss, it will be, some money will be there available next year and if we make a good showing this time around, it will be available... We may be somewhat surprised by what they cost to even come in for just that trailway and the surfacing and the equipment. Remember also in the 1990 budget we had $4,000.00 in there for new playground equipment at Chanhassen Elementary. ...situation in the shortfall in housing starts...could be added to that $6,000.00 in this first phase in 1990. Lash: So you don't have any idea what we can get for this $6,000.00? Hoffman: In the initial conversations with Mark, who was checking with the different manufacturers. I also have to go through somewhat of a formal bid process and you'd have some type of idea on what type of equipment you wanted and how much surface we're looking at and that type of thing so we'd get a bid estimates. But it's going to be a fairly one piece structure with some activities taking place on it. Probably a large piece for about $40,000.00 and...future years. As well, this equipment is...handicap children. Schroers: It's modular type so it can be added to. Lash: And are you talking about the surface material too? ,... Schroers: The surface material? Yeah, you just extend the border and the concrete base. and expand on it. Lash: But you think for $6,000.00 we could do that and get a couple of, I mean roughly what he's got showing on the thing? Hoffman: On the thing there? We didn't talk about the surfacing material. I do not know if Mark put that in the original... So again, once we find out exactly what the...we'll bring it back to the commission. Robinson: I guess I'd rather not use any additional money at this time. I" think if we do it with the idea that we can attach to it later as funds become available. Again, I don't know what we're going to get for $6,000.00. Lash: What if we can only get the surface? Robinson: Then I say we get the surface material. Schroers: The last time I checked installed it was something like $17.00 a yard or something like that. Lash: The other thing Kathleen said was that the APT has been earmarking funds for replacing the old junky equipment behind the school too so maybe that's something we could try and coordinate with them. Although if they think that we're going to do it, they'll maybe use the money for something else. ,,-.. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 7 "... Schroers: Do you want to modify your recommendation then Todd to just state or to recommend to purchase the handicap accessible equipment but not designate a site at this time? Hoffman: Well, unless you want to designate the school site. Robinson: Let's designate a site. I think we can do that tonight. Erhart: I think so. The school site first. Robinson: I would say so. Pemrick: I like the idea of that too. It would get the most use. Schroers: Okax, is there anymore discussion on this? Pemrick: I had a question. There is talk in here about a fishing pier. Is that connected with those funds as well? Hoffman: With the funds, correct. Pemrick: But that would be included in the $6,000.00 allotment? Hoffman: No. We could, unfortunately these dollars are included with the fishing pier which would be installed at Lake Susan Park. ,..... Erhart: Part of the $17,000.00. Pemrick: Okay. That would be taken out of that. Okay, page 34. Lash: Do we know how much the fishing pier's going to cost? If there'd be a little left over. Pemrick: $18,750.00. Lash: I'm not saying that I want to do this but if we wanted to, could we take the whole $17,000.00 and use that at City Center? Hoffman: That would need to go back to the Council and the Council at their last meeting approved the reappropriation for these two separate projects. Mady: The pier at Lake Ann is accessible isn't it? Hoffman: Correct... Mady: I guess to me, we're handling a need at Lake Ann that way. For 6 grand we're not going to get a whole lot in a play structure, especially if we have to buy expensive base. I'd like to see us recommend maybe to the Council to reapportion that money to handle the need that we're not addressing. We haven't addressed yet and $6,000.00 probably isn't going to address it very well. We're handling the handicap fishing situation with Lake Ann. Maybe we could use 2, maybe we could use 3 or 4 of them but at least we have 1. Right now we have no handicap accessible play .~ equipment and $6,000.00 isn't going to buy us a whole lot. We know that. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 8 ~ Hoffman: Only a portion of that $18,000.00 is coming from this block grant. Another half or two-thirds of that funding for that pier is coming from another source through Paul and the Planning Department so. Erhart: Do we lose that then? Hoffman: Yeah, we'd lose that... Schroers: Actually what we'd be losing is a total fishing pier at Lake Susan. Just because it's designated handicap, it's for everyone. Mady: So we're losing $9,000.00 is what we're losing. We're ultimately going to be putting in a fishing pier in at our own expense then. Hoffman: Not the City... Mady: Bottom line. Schroers: Alright, if that's the case, would we like to. Lash: I'd like to make a motion on this one. recommend to City Council that the City Center funding for the handicap accessible playground Is that all I need to do? I would move that we Park be the site for the in the amount of $5,898.00. "".. Mady: I'll second. Lash moved, Mady seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to the City Council that the City Center Park be the site for the funding for the handicap accessible playground equipment in the amount of $5,898.00. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. REVIEW SECTION OF COMPREHENSIVE PLAN IDENTIFYING PARKLAND NEAR LAKE ST. JOE. Public Present: Name Address Mar k Mali nowski Terry Forbord Richard Wing 7250 Minnewashta Parkway Lundgren Bros., 935 E. Wayzata Blvd., Wayzata 3481 Shore Drive """..... Hoffman: Mark was unable to attend tonight... As you can see, the... comprehensive plan folks came in and said look at the area around Lake St. Joe that is designated as park or open space, had concern with how that would affect their...property in that area. Mark Malinowski is in the audience here tonight. He is the particular property owner that contacted the city in this regard. As you can see by Mark's report, the property, the Malinowski property is east of Lake St. Joe... The upcoming look at Minnewashta Parkway, it will be upgrading that road and the addition of a trail in that area. There is supposed to be a trail in that area along Minnewashta Parkway whether it be on the east side of the road or the west Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 9 " side of the road, is not known at this time. But that as well...taking not designating the Malinowski property as open space and designated parkland for future use or something of that nature. As it states in Mark's report, it still would be possible...trail loop around Lake St. Joe and... Schroers: So that would be kind of just a horseshoe shaped loop around the lake? Hoffman: Correct. I believe Larry..., and you're probably the person most familiar with that area.. .nature trail back in that area. And again, the comprehensive plan is just a tool. We're not talking about particular trail segments in this area... r-. Mady: I guess I'd prefer the Comprehensive Plan being more of a verbal document stating that we need property, open space property in an area. Until we actually we do site plans and go out and walk spaces and have an opportunity to obtain specific sites, it's very difficult for us to designate some individual's property as a site. By the same token, I hate to rule somebody else's site out because we're not in the position now to buy anything or to get anything but if we open right now and say okay, because this individual doesn't want his site to be part of the selection process, that's fine for him but then what do we do with the other 11,000 people in this city who own property and come in front of us and say, I don't want you to take my property. All of a sudden we have 12, 25, 150 different sites that we're not supposed to look at. I think what happens is we all of a sudden have a problem., Right now we don't have a problem. The situation is we're probably never going to take this site. Although we need an area in Minnewashta Parkway badly, we need an open ballfield. Your site isn't probably conducive to doing that. By stepping in now with the very first one saying this site we're not going to ever take and we're going to say that right on the plan, we're going to have more and more people coming in here saying I want you to take my property off the plan. Then all of a sudden we do have a problem I think. I would rather us not get site specific, either pro or con in the plan if we can help it. Hoffman: To address your first comment about just being verbage and not being a piece of paper. As you may recall, in looking different segments of the comprehensive plan as Mark is doing, he has...visual aid more or less than the last comprehensive plan was developed in 1980 and prior to that time...just use those as visual aids in that document and realize that... They're trying to look into the future but the comments are very valid. We don't want to start picking apart the comprehensive plan... Schroers: I agree with that statement Todd and also with what Jim has said. Setting a precedent could cause acquisition problems for us down the road. What I see here with the 6.5 acres that Mr. Malinowski's property, the portion of it that we could acquire for park dedication wouldn't help us in that area anyway. It's not large enough. So I think in that, Mr. Malinowski could have some reassurance that we wouldn't be considering his property for parkland. Erhart: Is there also mature woods on that site Todd? Hoffman: On this site? .'""' Park and Rec commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 10 .,-... Erhart: Yeah, on the 6.5 acres of your property. Is it very wooded? (The answer could not be heard on the tape.J Hoffman: As stated in Mark's report, the house on that would be real close to the lake... I guess Mark's interpretation is the original intent of acquiring some parkland in this area...natural setting that was there... Mady: We did about a year and a half ago or there abouts, Carol Watson was still on the panel at that time, look at the area on the back side of Lake St. Joe. There was someone who was looking to subdivide and at that time we looked real closely and determined that the marsh area was simply too dense and too wet. Too soft to even really consider putting a nature trail in at that time so if I remember correctly, we were thinking more on the nature of Lake St. Joe's a nice item and these would be wonderful in the future but we're not going to be able to go in some areas real close to it anyway so it's just more when it gets developed, maybe we can put a path around the outside edge of it possibly but an active use through the area is going to be very difficult anyway so it probably wasn't smart so I don't know. Unless something changes drastically between now and then, I don't know how that's going to happen. I just don't foresee anything if it happens. ,..... Hoffman: ...Mark to look at the natural area in there. More so it'd be the acquisition of some land...taking a look at the parkland and distribution...there's a real void there. The only think we could come up with is a small neighborhood park on the south side...real small area. Schroers: If we decide not to designate this property as single family residential, will that impair Mr. Malinowski's ability to obtain a building permit? Hoffman: That's currently what it is. It's just a single family residential that's unplatted. Schroers: Oh, it's unplatted. I thought reading this it seemed to me like it indicated that it was designated park and open space. Hoffman: It's designated as a potential site on the comprehensive plan for. Schroers: Oh, but it's not zoned that way? Hoffman: If Mr. Malinowski decided to subdivide, at that time you'd take it with the tools that we use in our department, we take a look at comprehensive plan to see, is there anything designated in this area which we could take a look at. And yes, there is, under the current plan, that is park and open space. Then it would come back to the commission and start taking a look at...area similar to what we were doing tonight and really all we're doing this evening is pre-determining that even if that area is subdivided... Schroers: Are you looking for some kind of a motion on this? ""..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 11 ,..... Hoffman: Correct. A motion to approve Mark's recommendations...that that property be dropped from the comprehensive plan. Andrews: Could I ask an odd question? Is the reason why we're dropping this from the Plan because it's not suitable to be developed as an active park? Is that why we're making this request or decision? Hoffman: That would be one of the main... Andrews: My point would be, why is that every park that we look at has to be considered as an active park. Currently we do not have any, or very little wild, natural areas in the city and I have been to one park where an elevated wood walkway was built over a marshy area and it's a very beautiful way to walk through a marshy area. I guess I'm hesitant to say that this is unuseable land. Maybe unuseable as a ballfield or a tennis court but I guess I look at natural wild spaces as having a value on their own. Schroers: I don't think that this is too much of a, I agree with what you say Jim but I think this particular property is not a real natural area and l~ild spaces. He stated there's already a house sitting on it and there's neighborhoods. It's all residential in that area. Andrews: How many acres is Lake St. Joe? Hoff.ma n: 33. ifili'" Andrews: 33? Lash: I think this is kind of a, this is more of a two fold item in the fact that Mr. Malinowski brought it to our attention but then Mark gave it his attention and I think from his, looking at his opinion, it isn't something that would suit our needs in that particular area and then the other half, I mean although I agree that you don't like to set a precedent on these kinds of things and I also agree that maybe instead of being so specific we should just sort of in the plan say in a certain area, you know near Lake St. Joe we're looking for park property or something instead of designating. If I looked at a map and on top of my house I saw that the city had stamped it park/open space, it would make me real nervous that something was going on that I didn't know about so I think this is kind of two fold. I wasn't aware of the fact that there was a home there and I can't imagine that we'd ever go in and bulldoze down somebody's house and condemn their property and take it for a natural park. That just doesn't even make sense so you know Mark is recommending it's not, it doesn't fill our needs out there. There's a home there. It's creating anxiety for the property owner and you put it altogether and I guess I just think we need to reword or redesignate our site and maybe just put it in, like Jim said, in the verbage that in the Lake St. Joe area and then any time something comes, a large scale development or something in that area, we'd be able to. Can we do that or not? Do we have to pick a specific site? ,.... Hoffman: Again, we can put in the verbage but then the map or the diagram is just put in there as an aid. If the comprehensive plan was all words, it's fairly dry so...show the intent. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 12 ,..... Lash: Or are you going to be specific, as specific as Mark was in saying that the northwest area or the southern area didn't he, would be the two prime? I can't remember where he had that now. Mady: I think you've missed the point though. Lake st. Joe area was put in the map as a possible open space area by the Park Commission long before I was here, back when they were very natural area oriented. The reason was Lake St. Joe was a very natural type of setting, especially the back side of it. This area is no different than what we're trying to do, like putting in the comp plan that we'd like to gain all the property around Lake Ann. There's absolutely no difference between this and that. And we all know that with Prince living there, it's probably going to be, that might be a pipe dream but it's still nice to leave it in the plan, in the comp plan as a potential so it's always there. So we always know about it. Whether it happens or not in 20 years, we won't know that but at least \~e have designated the areas as natural areas that should be looked at and reviewed and this is an area that should be looked at and reviewed. There's no one saying we're going to bulldoze the house and buy the property but it's still, an opportunity comes in that we should be aware of it and future commissions should be aware of it and future staff should be aware of it because as we've seen, commission changes from year to year. Staff changes and we're not going to be here maybe 10 years from now to remember that maybe that was the way it should have been. Lash: So you're saying that you think our goal would be to someday eventually acquire all of the property. I mean all of this area that's ~ shown around here on the map? Mady: I don't know if it's a goal. I think it's just something that we should, it's been designated as something we should be looking at if an opportunity presents itself. That's all it is. I guess I'm on the nature that we haven't done anything at this point in time. Taken no steps to doing anything and until the owner or a developer comes in and does something, we're not going to be taking steps on it because we just simply don't do it that way. Hoffman: We have somebody here that would like to give us an insight on that issue. ;-- Terry Forbord: I think I can answer a lot of your questions or at least give you some insight. My name is Terry Forbord. I'm Vice President of Lundgren Bros. and this is kind of a hasty appearance for me because I just found out you were meeting today when I met with Mr. Koegler. We own about 100 acres of land around Lake St. Joe, or we have the option to secure the property for 3 years. We have met informally with city staff oh, probably 2--3 times about properties that we do control in the area. We began the assembly of some of these parcels about 2 years ago. We tend to try .to work as quietly as possible for a number of reasons but for those of you who are familiar with the area, this is really one of the toughest areas that I've ever, ever tried to assemble land because from a land use standpoint, there's really a mish mash of development and small, really oddly configured parcels and physical constraints that are very difficult to work with from purely just a planning perspective. By physical constraints I mean topography, wetlands. Now our company, maybe we're masticistic but we tend to look for sites like that. The workload is twice ,... ,.... ,-.. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 13 as much, sometimes 3 or 4 times as much because of all the governmental agencies you need to work with but we find that it's a successful formula for us in what we try to do so we look for sites like that. The problem in this area with trying to make all this work from a master planning standpoint, is the economics. Because there are so many small little parcels and structures on them, the economics become almost impossible from a development standpoint. Remember structures are a liability when it comes to land development from an economic standpoint. Raw land is much more easy to deal with but when somebody's home in on there, they have a value in that home whether it be emotional or physical or whatever and so \~hen you try to master plan an area, 100, 200 acres or whatever, obviously we're trying to make it make economic sense first to determine if it's even workable. Then try to work with the city to meet tha city's goals and objectives as well. Now I've been following the Comp Plan process. It's been underway off and on for 3 years, or even longer than that I guess but we've been following it and watching and in the last year it's really stepped up and I've been in contact with the consultants and city staff and to let them know informally because we haven't made a formal application. But informally that we will be making a formal application for this area for part of it in the very, very near future. But because it's a shoreland district and there are certain guidelines that one has to operate in that, it affects property within 1,000 feet of an environmental lake which Lake St. Joe is and we're totally cognizant of the fact that the consultant and the City would like to see some type of park, active in that area. What I'd ask you to do tonight, being that all of this is kind of in the process and it has been in the process for some time. We haven't completed the land assembly. We're attempting to and we don't know if we will be able to. As I said, because of the configuration of the parcels and the value that some of the parcels have affixed to them from a sale standpoint, it really makes it. When you add all these things together and you figure can I subdivide and can anybody even afford to buy the lots because the raw land price was so high, and that's what we're working on now. If a particular parcel or a certain acreage was designated well this is where the park's going to be, that could skew the master planning for that whole area. What we're trying to do, like I say, is master plan the entire area which is a benefit to the City. Benefit to the County. Benefit for what you're attempting to do and it's certainly a benefit for the people l~ho end up living there and building their homes there. So if we could just kind of, we know there needs to be a park there. We won't know where it best works until we're done doing what needs to be done there. And hopefully that sheds a little bit of light on what you're trying to do. The way we envision it, I've walked every inch of the land there so I'm real familiar with it. The physical constraints there with the wetland areas is a real sensitive area and it needs to be dealt with accordingly. I guess what we envision ideally, and unfortunately it never works out that way but ideally where you could have a passive and an active area somewhat hopefully contiguous with one another so maybe you have some of your active areas over here or maybe you have some soccer fields or whatever and then you have some nature trails that you could walk off into. Now that's ideal and all of that obviously is dictated by how you're able to put the correct parcels together. So maybe that will give you a little insight of what's occurring in the area. There will be some type of park in the area and where exactly it ends up, we don't know yet. But hopefully within the next 6 months I'll have a much, much clearer idea of what's occuring. We probably will be submitting a conceptual plat to staff for at least part of Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 14 ,... the area oh I would imagine for sure within the next 3 months or so but we have the property on the south side and some property on the north side. So there's about 100 acres total. Hoffman: Could you expand just a little bit, or explain to us on the south side of the area? Terry Forbord: Well it used to be referred to as the Bollie property for those of you who are familiar with the city. If you look at your map, all of the land that's on the very south side of Lake St. Joe, all the way down to TH 5 and part of that land is in the city of Victoria. Schroers: It's a low area in the corner there right? Terry Forbord: the name of it. me but there's. In the northwest corner of the property, I can't remember Mrs. Brickley told me the name of that lake. It escapes Schroers: No, right down by TH 5. Terry Forbord: Oh, correct. That's correct. Right down by TH 5 there is a wetland area that goes northwest over towards Lake, is it Wasserman? Over in Victoria, is that the name of it? Hoffman: Not this particular one. ,... Schroers: No, that would be Steiger but there's another little lake back behind St. Joe called Tamarack and it would be going up to the farm. Towards I think that was. Terry Forbord: Mr. Thomas' farm. It goes all the way up towards Mr. Thomas' farm. That little lake behind it. Some people call it the Swiss Mountain Farm on 13 there. Schroers: Yeah. Terry Forbord: Yeah, that wetland you're correct, it does go northwesterly all the way up to that lake. I guess is that Tamarack? Schroers: Tamarack. The railroad tracks run along the side of it. Terry Forbord: But it's just a very, very special area and we've spent a lot of time. Schroers: How much of that property are you looking at now? From TH 5, how far west do you go? Terry Forbord: To the city limits. Schroers: Isn't that Victoria right there? Terry Forbord: That's correct. To the city limits. JII"""' Hoffman: Do you have your map...? Pa,k and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 15 '" Sch,oe,s: Yeah. Lash: But TH 5 is below that. Is that what you're thinking La,ry? Sch,oe,s: Well there's quite a bit of agricultural land up in there isn't there? Terry Forbord: In which part? Schroers: It would be in the south part from TH 5. Hoffman: This area contains agricultural, wooded and lowland wetlands. ".... Terry Forbord: Yeah. It's a real mix of different vegetation types. There's a lot of Army Corps, DNR regulated wetlands in there. That's abundant with it. And I've already met with both agencies 0, we deal with them all the time anyway so they know us real well but, they're all aware of what we're doing. But like I say, the only reason I wanted to get up and just let you know, because I could tell it was a concern for Y9U and it should be. I mean that's what your charge is and it's certainly a conce,n to us because we want to make any neighborhood, community that we create we want the people who live there to be able to have access to all the things that anybody that lives in the city should and that area is in need of some type of a,ea because they have to go up to Minnewashta Shores I believe now is the closest park. The difficulty with this is trying to make it work economically because the land value that the people have set on their properties in that area, and I don't know if any of you have looked, is just phenomenal. It almost is to the point where that even if one was able to subdivide, even if we are able to pull this off and who knows. Maybe we won't be able to, that who'd be able to buy homes in there? I mean the lots may end up being $75,000.00-$80,000.00 lots and that certainly isn't the ,eal world for everybody. What we're trying to do is make some sense out of it so that's where, we're fully cognizant of the fact that a park is guided to be in that area. Lash: Can you provide Todd with a map or a little more defined area of the property that you are working with? Terry Forbord: ...going to develop within 12 months. The earliest we'd be in there on the first phase would be probably the spring of 1991. Hoffman: 1992. Terry Forbord: My, it's going by awfully fast isn't it? But and that would be for, or we tend to do small phases. We don't just go in and blow everything. We're not like that so. Lash: There's no sewer and water out there is there? ,.... Terry Forbord: There is sewer and water in Minnewashta Parkway. And there is enough capacity, the preliminary estimates and until you actually get into the hard, hard, hard work, the technical detail, the preliminary estimates are there's plenty of capacity there to service the area but I mean I may be speaking a little too soon to guarantee that. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 16 ~ Lash: Do you have any idea on how many homes you're thinking of? Terry Forbord: No. 'Lash: Or is this hard to say? Terry Forbord: We tend to be a very low density builder. We're probably the least dense developer in the city. At least that's what they tell us. Pemrick: What would the approximate size of the lot be? Terry Forbord: That's too early to say. It's real tough. The Shoreland District has certain requirements and the City's adopted the DNR regs for that area. The DNR regulations but the DNR's in the process of changing that because it was, wha~ happens a lot of times is they pass regulations and they find out the regulations don't work so they end UP taking a look at it again and that's what they're doing now. It's too early to say. Mady: Are you looking at any property north of King's Road? You don't have to tell me if you're not, if you're in the middle of something I can understand your situation but. Terry Forbord: We do own property, we have an option on property north of King's Road. Mady: I just wanted to get a feel for how far north we're looking. ,.... Terry.Forbord: Yeah it goes, like I say, I think there's 40 acres north of King's Road and there's 67 acres south and around Lake St. Joe. Schroers: From what we've looked at before as a commission, the area north of King's Road would probably lend itself better as an active park area. Terry Forbord: From a physical standpoint, I mean a site standpoint, that's correct. From an economic standpoint, I don't know if it does and so what we're trying, and we're cognizant of that. What we're trying to figure out is how do we deliver to the City and the future neighborhood that will exist there and the residents that live there, how do we deliver to them what they need and still make it affordable. That's always the biggest challenge on our park. I mean how do you do it? When you're paying, I mean if the people realize what the raw land prices were, I mean it's impossible to just give land away for parks. It just doesn't work. No matter would it be Lundgren Bros. or anybody else. They'd walk away just because the numbers don't work so we're trying to figure out a way and we're not quite there yet, to try to make this all work. But we've done it before. Hopefully it will work. Hoffman: The commission did take a look at that piece north of King's Road so they are aware of it... Mady: Yeah, and the price. ,.... Schroers: From our point of view what you're telling us tonight, or what I'm reading into it anyway, is that now there is at least a glimmer of hope of acquiring some parkland in that area. You know we know that there is a Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 17 "... large chunk proposed to be developed and we should be able to get some parkland. Before tonight the way it was looking, there were so many smaller parcels owners that wanted to subdivide and these properties just did not, according to the formula that we used to acquire parkland, we just wouldn't be able to get enough parkland to accommodate our needs out there so it's definitely some encouragement and we hope that you find a way to make it work. . ""'" Terry Forbord: There are two things that, we're basically, what we're going to be doing as a city, we want to provide that too. I mean it helps us. I mean the parks, we don't look at them as a negative. The key driving force though is the economics. I mean if the numbers don't work, it doesn't work for you or us or the future people that live there so what we're going to be trying to do, there's a couple sites that it would be ideal for. If you're familiar with the topography in the area, one of the things that's sensitive about this area, you don't want to just go in and pick any site and then just grade it flat like a pancake because then you're wrecking the land and the land's beautiful just the way it is. You try to leave it as much as possible just the way it is but there is a couple specific sites where a 3 acre play area would work just perfectly. Just perfectly and then there's some passive area adjacent to it that would accommodate what you were talking about Jim, the type of trails where one can just walk through and enjoy it the way it is. Our studies, we find that there's more people that prefer that than people would realize. A lot of people just like parks, just the raw land the way it is so what we're going to be doing is bringing something forward to the city and to you folks and trying to get your help in helping us solve this problem as well because we're trying to deliver what the city needs at the same time. So if you could just bear with us here for the next few months and just realize that there will be a park. That we're trying to figure the best place to put it and we're trying to accommodate all those needs. We just don't have our homework all done yet. Thank you. Schroers: Thank you for your information. Okay, we need to get back to Mr. Malinowski here. On his property and from what Todd said, that this is going to have to come back to us again in the future at the time of development, I don't really see that we're gaining anything at this point in time to designate it as the park and open space or single family because we're going to have to address the whole issue again. Andrews: I guess I feel that the appropriate thing to do would be to defer any action whatsoever until Lundgren Bros. has a chance to be successful or unsuccessful in their whole planning. This present parkland may be totally, could be totally released if Lundgren were to provide us with what we needed but their plan could still totally collapse if the economics aren't there and I would hate to take an action based on a possible outcome rather than, and I'd prefer to wait on something that was definite. Mady: Todd, we obviously have a lot of work to do on the Comp Plan so this maybe is more appropriately dealt with in a final form with the whole comp plan instead of doing it on a hodge podge style. This little site now and then do the rest of it later. """..... Mark Malinowski: My concern initially when I called the city because I read in the paper, there was need for parkland west of Lake Minnewashta. ,.... ,... ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 18 I looked at myself and said, my land sits right in there. I wonder what's on their mind and I called and I asked if there was any parklands anywhere. I was told no. They really didn't have much. They might like to buy some land around Lake St. Joe but that's no big deal to them. Then I came into the planning meeting and looked at the land use plan and my God, I see all of my land is in green. I said what does that mean? Mark Koegler who sat over there at the time, well he explained that means parks and open space. That's when my concern became real. What I would like to see I guess is with the new comprehensive land use plan comes out, that my property be shown like it is which is single family residential. The rest of the property around the lake, in the colored portion of the map, it shows it to be like blue trees or whatever, around the perimeter of the lake. Then where the actual lot is where the house would sit, would be yellow. That's where I have a concern. Something like this could affect the property value. Very real concern. My personal intention is I love open space. My intention, I don't have any plans right now other than to live comfortably on that property just as it is. I might want to add on to my house or maybe build a new house there but my intention is not to cut down all the timber or bulldoze the land flat. I have a real love for open space and that's why I bought that property. Schroers: You don't have plans to develop it at some point in time? Mark Malinowski: No. I don't have any plans like that. I can't say they're not going to change at some point. I'm very happy in Chanhassen and I'm not a developer. I came from a farm background and when I looked around at the city and all the small lots, I finally found a place where I really and truly could live in and that's what the 6 1/2 acres around Lake st. Joe, I'm very comfortable there. I might want to add one thing. Have any of walked down by Lake St. Joe? What you're going to do if you put a trail through there, you're going to move that wildlife right out of that area. Right now there is deer around. I have deer tracks in my yard. There are green herons that rest on my pier. There's a wonderful natural area. If you put a trail through that marshland, you're going to move that wildlife right. I guess I have no other comments other than that. Mady: I guess no one else has maybe been through it but I'll disagree with you a little bit there. If your comment were true then the DNR would have a real problem. Nature trails do impact a nature area. Obviously they do that but they don't become super highways in any stretch of the imagination. Those deer are going to be there until something drastically happens to the deer population in the whole state or until Victoria develops to the extent of what is now an Edina. You're still going to have a large deer population there. Schroers: I work for Hennepin Parks and we have an extensive trail system. It's very common to see a deer on the trail. There are times when the geese and other wildlife on the trail are almost a hazard to the people that are using the trail so it's hard to say that it's going to displace the wildlife if you build a proper nature trail. Mark Malinowski: I agree the deer can live anywhere. Deer is easily adaptable. There's no more loons on Lake St. Joe and if you talk to Mr. Bollie, there used to be. The wildlife's moving out...and I'm sure that everybody...no more green herons. Rest assured. I really don't have a Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 19 ,..... problem with a trail. That's not a problem. That's what I'm saying because... All I'm saying is I would prefer to see my property as it really is, it's single family residential shown on the comprehensive plan. Lash: I think the information we got tonight sheds some new light on this whole thing and if we've got all the area around Lake St. Joe designated as park property, the way I understand it, if anything happens there. Anyone comes in and chooses to develop it, at that point in time we have the option to buy it. Is that right? No? Hoffman: No. We would just. Lash: I thought we had first crack at it but if we couldn't afford it, then they could do it. Schroers: That was just on that one particular parcel that was for sale at that time. That 8. whatever acres. The people wanted to give us first option on purchase of that particular property and to be perfectly honest, I don't remember exactly what happened with that. I think we just decided that we couldn't afford to outright purchase that property. But it wasn't all the way around Lake St. Joe. I think that that would be just part of the normal dedication process like anything else. Lash: I mean anything on the comprehensive plan. I'm sure that Lori tried to explain to me one time when something is designated, it gives us first dibs at it doesn't it? .,..... Hoffman: No. It's designated an area, we'd have to be heads up enough to catch wind that the area is for sale for a developer to come in here and develop it and take a look at outright acquisition as well. Of if a large development were to take place in this area, we would just have the right to require as much land as we can by city code under that current ordinance . ..Klingelhutz addition and then after that we would have to look at outright purchase of the land for the value. That type of thing. If it's designated and the Commission and the Council feels strongly enough that land was up for development and we wanted it as parkland and we weren't willing to purchase it, we wouldn't have any specific right to it. We'd have to go through condemnation proceedings. It really doesn't give us any special, what it is is it's a planning tool and as eluded to earlier... use that comprehensive plan in planning for future parks and open spaces in the city. Schroers: It just says that that's a potential place for a park but it's not designated as park property. Andrews: I think we need to make a motion to go one way or the other here although I don't have that motion. Schroers: I think that what we should do is vote on the recommendation as stated here by staff and if that passes, so be it and if it doesn't pass, then we're going to have to, we'll make a different recommendation. Robinson: Yeah, by staff it's Mark's recommendation and I just wanted to say, based on what I heard here tonight and the respect I have for Mark's recommendation, I would support Mark's recommendation. .,(/11" ,... ,... ".... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 20 Schroers: I do too. I don't think that Mark has shown us anything in the past that would make me want to question his judgment. He's been very thorough. Lash: So is that a motion Curt? Robinson: Sure. I'll recommend that the Malinowski property be designated as single family residential rather than park/open space and that the remainder of Lake St. Joe area now shown as park/open space remain as park/ open space. Erhart: I'll second that. Robinson moved, Erhart seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the Malinowski property be designated as single family residential rather than park/open space and the remainder of the Lake St. Joe area remain as park/open space on the Comprehensive Plan. All voted in favor except Jim Mady and Jim Andrews who opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 5 to 2. Hoffman: Larry, Richard Wing is in the audience. He's a resident of this area. He just happens to also be a person running for Council who has one comment to make on the Lake St. Joe area. Richard Wing: I was just really here to learn tonight but being a resident of Lake Minnewashta for a quarter of a century and being real familiar with this area, I really appreciated your comments about why do parks always have to be active. I think my use of them probably is more the nature park or the passive parks. I was sitting listening to this this evening and my heart kind of stopped because I use that area so much, whether it's cross country skiing or it's biking or it's jogging. Whatever the case was and in our home we have a large picture in our den with our family on our bikes with Lake St. Joe in the background with a sunset. I just would urge you, as you look at this particular parcel, when you think of Lake St. Joe, think of the boundary waters or think of Christmas Lake. I guess all I really intended to say standing here is that that's a real jewel. That is just a one time jewel. It's a deep lake. Very heavily, it's not the type of lake you walk around. The topography of the land is low and it's very weedy and so on and so forth and I've been around it. It's certainly not accessible to the public but I just want to leave that one word with you. If your future thoughts, that's really a jewel. Schroers: Thank you. RICE MARSH LAKE PARK PLAYGROUND IMPROVEMENTS. Hoffman: Basically this item was generated from the engineering department. They took at look at what was occurring in our cul-de-sacs and some of the side streets with the basketball hoops...just left and right with the new subdivisions that were coming in so they cut that sort of activity off. Since that time they have had some problems...shall remain. That was the position that is somewhat difficult to enforce...feedback from the commission. Anyway that's the way this one came about because there is a backboard and a pole in the cul-de-sac and this neighborhood...said if I have to pull it out, can we have it installed in the park...for that type Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 21 ~ of use. We drove out into that area and Rice Marsh Lake is...type of facilities that are there, there's not a whole lot of space. As well there's the outdated playground equipment there in that location that we've talked about in the past. However, the... So it'd be a project that financially could be done with only a $1,000.00. Something of that nature. ...take out the outdated playground equipment which is there which has as most recently as 2 years ago caused an injury which...so we should have been pulling out that earlier than we are but the equipment now is gone. The aggregate base is...for the pad for the new basketball court and this item is strictly being brought to the commission tonight. It has an outdtaed. . . Schroers: Where it says existing play structure. Is that new stuff or is that the old? Hoffman: That's a new piece which is somewhat similar to the pieces we're currently installing that was probably put in 6 years ago. It's a wood type structure which basically matches what we... Schroers: Okay, so that's going to stay? Hoffman: Yep, that's going to stay. Lash: Did you just say that's going to cost $l,OOO.OO? Hoffman: For the backboard and that type of thing. The additional money for the, with the additional aggregate base, the gravel. ~ Lash: So where is that coming from? Hoffman: Where is it coming from? Basically taking a look at the capital improvement budget for the 1990 year, we are somewhat behind in our spending. It's hard to believe. Robinson: Coming from the tennis court up by the well. Mady: You know Curt's tennis court he hasn't gotten for 3 years. Lash: So coming from something we haven't spent... Hoffman: Well the situation, taking a look at the $150,000.00 which was -budgeted during the 1991 and 1990 budget. Taking a look at what projects have been completed and what has not bee completed. Just take for instance the $40,000.00 for playground equipment at City Center Park. That's not going to take place. There was $15,000.00 in there for a Boy Scout project. I'm not sure how that $15,000.00 got in there. What it was going to be used for but we had spent a fraction of what was budgeted in this project so to take, to get this much benefit for $1,000.00, a couple thousand dollars is just, it's really. Erhart: So we're not taking from a project? Hoffman: No. ,... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 22 ~ Robinson: I guess, and I was going to say maybe Jan is saying. I guess what I'm saying is, it says no action is necessary. I guess I would have rather, if we were going to do something like this, that it be brought up to us and we agree to spend that thousand bucks down there. Hoffman: We certainly can do that. Mady: This also comes Todd where we've been doing recently with, when the residents from Centex Homes came in here not too long ago and the ongoing parade of new developments would come in asking well gee, can't you give us a little bit more. Well this one's only a thousand bucks. Sometimes it's like $5,000.00. Sometimes $10,000.00. We have been saying it's not in the budget. We've got everybody else asking for it. It just can't get done. I'm concerned that because this one's cheap and easy it's going to get done when we've got all these other things that might take a little more effort to do but they're going to get put on the back burner. This one all of a sudden came out of nowhere and got put right to the head of the class when in the scheme of things, maybe it's real important. Maybe it isn't real important but from where I'm looking at this one, all of a sudden it just came up out of nowhere and it's going to, it sounds like it's going to get done in the next couple of weeks. Lash: And we didn't know anything about it. Mady: We didn't know anything about it and we've been fighting and trying to get this tennis court over here and we can't get it done and play structures are getting delayed and not being installed and it just, I don't ~ know. It makes us look bad. Lash: I hate to give a message that we don't want to get anything done. Todd's making some initiative to get something done for a change and I like that so I don't want to act like we're sloshing the pans and telling him.. .but I guess I was just curious with knowing what a tight budget we have, where the money came from. That's what started it. Erhart: And Todd's all red in the face. Robinson: For getting something done for a change. Lash: No, there was a complaint that we never get anything, it seems like we never get anything done and now we get something done and all of a sudden we're jerking the reins. Mady: We'll be patting him on the back in about another 15 minutes. Schroers: Maybe a good way to put this would be that spending this proposed thousand dollars to get this basketball court in here is not going to be preventing us from accomplishing something else that we want to do. Mady: It makes good sense from a public safety standpoint too. Hoffman: The situation was, walked down there with Dale and we said, that area which the current playground structure is on is an appropriate size for the playground area. That equipment should have been ripped out of "'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 23 ",... there 2 years ago when we had the suit against us for the. ..that occurred there. . . Mady: We may be, or the comment earlier about City Center Park and the cage. We've talked about how bad some of that equipment is for the 5 years I've been up here anyway. Maybe we should look for, instead of a thousand bucks, maybe another $200.00 and buy some pearock to put underneath ~hat cage so the next kid who drops 10 feet from the top of it and there are more than one broken arm a year up there, that maybe we can prevent one of those. Hoffman: I thought about that. The situation there is, at what point do we start admitting it is on school property. We want to be cooperative in the spirit of things... Pemrick: What gets done with the old equipment? The outdated equipment. Where does that go? Hoffman: Basically, they'll probably cut that slide in two. pemrick: It's destroyed, yeah. Mady: If it's unsafe for us, it's unsafe for everyone; Schroers: Well, if we're not going to take any action on this at this time, let's move on to item 8. ""..... Mady: I just wanted to let you know Todd that I planned on saying this is a good idea but I thought we should do some staff bashing when we had the opportunity. Hoffman: Thank you for that. Mady: Besides I knew about 2 items later I was going to be patting you on the back so I figured I should humble you up first. Hoffman: I did get that comment though from the City Manager. Where's the money coming from? SITE PLAN REVIEW. TROENDLE ADDITION. Hoffman: Item number 8 is a fairly simple site plan review which basically is just brought before the Commission as an informational item to let you know what's taking place in the city. We continue to fill up and those types of things. It's a subdivision of 8.7 acres into 15 single family lots. If you're familiar with this area... Frank Seddor purchased this property from the Troendle's over there. Nez Perce Drive is a new road that has gone through the area just recently, within the past year the commission has reviewed the Vineland subdivision which is just off to the south of this site. The park needs are being met by the adjacent parks. The Carver Beach Park, the playground and the Curry Farms Park is across the major road there so it is somewhat close as well... ,.... Andrews: Is it intentional that they're trying to make access for the people on the north side of Lotus Lake as long and difficult as possible Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 24 ~ for Carver Beach? There seems to be a lot of obvious choices here for a connection and it isn't going to happen. Hoffman: Yeah Nez Perce, this piece will eventually, this will continue through and eventually hook up...so this will be a connection road between Pleasant View Road and then down all the way back to Kerber. Schroers: It must be almost right underneath the water tower the way it 100 ks . Hoffman: It basically is east of the water tower. Andrews: By North Lotus on top of the hill? Hoffman: This site? Andrews: Yeah. There's a little pond there that they filled in. Hoffman: ...It's like one piece over. Andrews: It's one piece to the east of that water tower? Hoffman: Yeah. Andrews: That's got to be it then. Hoffman: There's one big piece in there that's... ,... Mady: Are they going to develop Nez Perce in the flavor of the rest of the road and make it only 12 feet wide? Hoffman: No. The initial...nicely curved and quite wide. Lash: So do you need a motion on this? Hoffman: Yes. Lash: Okay. I make a motion that we accept park and trail fees in lieu of dedication of land. Mady: Second. Lash moved. Mady seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to accept park and trail fees in lieu of parkland and trail construction. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously. PARK DEVELOPMENT UPDATE: A. LAKE SUSAN PARK 8. SADDLE8ROOK TRAIL Hoffman: This is a fairly exciting item. If you've been to Lake Susan Park, it has... ~,..., Mady: It's fantastic. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 25 ,... Hoffman: ...at an unbelieveable rate. After what we went through at Lake Ann but what we did in 2 years at Lake Ann and what we've done in 3 years at Lake Susan. Mady: 2 weeks at Lake Susan. Hoffman: Yeah, it's just incredible. As stated in here, the seed is in the ground. It's been in the ground approximately one week. They seeded it last Saturday. They mulched the outfield. The infield was sodded. It's elevated. The baseball and large backstop is there. It's a legal baseball field. You've got all the distance requirements. The irrigation system is in. It's running on a Monday, Wednesday, Friday schedule right now and there's 7 different districts to the watering system. It goes on at night and shuts off at 6:00 a.m. in the morning so the field is getting watered constantly throughout the week. With this warm weather that we had, we should see some tremendous growth out there at that park. If you do have a chance to take a look at it, you'll see just the initial phase is going to be completed this fall including the tennis courts, the parking lot. The parking lot improvements to the lot which is there and placement of the play structure. The replacement of the volleyball court which was moved. The baseball field being done as well as the sight where the archery is being molded to fit somewhere down behind the baseball field... Schroers: I'm glad you brought that up because I missed that item in there and I was going to say, there was one very important item there that's missing. "..... Hoffman: It's been addressed and it will be there as well as an additional item which was not included. It was electricity run out to the backstop so the baseball association can have access to that for their pitching machine and that type of thing and any concession activities that would take place in the interim between the time when it's initially developed...but there will be electricity there as part of that project. Then they'll wind down this spring or this fall. The last thing which will be completed, the light pole will be delivered about the first of December and those will all be concreted in and wired and install those...sedimentation which is taking place following... Installation of the trail segment there down by the lake. Lake Susan Hills West neighborhood which has their trail segment just running to the west side of Lake Susan and then they'll complete the clean-up probably sometime in June. Mady: Todd, I couldn't remember, we are putting lights on the ballfield? Hoffman: No. Mady: No, we're not. I couldn't remember and somebody from the baseball association asked me and I told them I thought we were not and he said we were and I said it's been a couple years. It's very possible. Andrews: What lights were yoU talking about? Parking lot lights? ,... Hoffman: Parking lot lights, correct. Parking lot and roadway lights. It's minimal lighting in the parking lot. Along the roadway down to the boat access and that type of thing. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 26 ~, Mady: The road, Lake Drive is lit anyway. Lash: I remember from the Minutes last time where Jim talked about the warning track. Is that what you called it? Were you able to achieve that? Hoffman: Yes. Mady: It's in. Lash: And I'm not trying to sound negative here. Really I'm not but I find this kind of contradictory where it says the trails have not been started yet. Work on the boat access, fishing pier and lake dredging will not be done this fall as initially programmed. In summary, the work is proceeding on schedule. So it's on schedule for it not to be completed like it was supposed to? Mady: I know the boat access wasn't going to be started until next year. Next spring. Hoffman: It's on schedule. Lash: It is on schedule? Mady: It's got to be way ahead of schedule. Hoffman: We pushed, we tried to get started this fall and the whole authorization and approval of plans and specs...we really have a fine ~ contractor... Mady: It's amazing. I was out there 2 weeks ago. I drove by just to see what was happening. If anything was happening because I knew the contracts had been let at the City Council meeting somewhere around the 20th of August. Maybe the 15th. Somewhere around there and I was amazed and I called Todd the next Monday and said what's going on? These guys have got huge earth moving equipment. They've obviously got it all done. The backstop's in place. They've just got a little bit of screening to do. I said what happened? This is supposed to be done for 3 years. Andrews: Is the electrical work all done? You're all done with the electrical work out there already? Hoffman: No. Andrews: Is there enough service out there to put lights on the field at a later date without having to run a major electrical project again? Hoffman: We talked about that. People go in and develop a field and there's talk about running the service right up to the field already and running inground wires in there and possibly even putting in the standards but you find, in the time lag between when that work gets done and 5 to 8 years later lights are put in, you end up having some problems with deterioration of the equipment which is there. It is so close, the electricity would be coming out of the pump house which is a couple hundred yards from the fields so 5,6,4 more years, whatever... ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 27 ~ Andrews: So you have plenty of service in the general site? Hoffman: Yes. Andrews: I guess that's what I was driving at. Schroers: Lake Ann? How much pressure do you feel that this is going to take off of A noticeable amount? Is it going to. Hoffman: I believe so because the use of Lake Ann is going to be so much different. It is the beach use is still going to be just as intensive. Schroers: No, I meant the ballfields. Hoffman: Essentially it won't be used until 1992 so Field #1 will be able to be used somewhat more for the softball programs but who knows where the baseball program will be by that time. We're over double from last year and the fields at Lake Susan will be used for the Legion teams, the Babe Ruth teams, the AAU teams, those divisions which... They can get one game of practice in in an evening and...so it's not going to be noticeable. Mady: Without lights we aren't doing a whole lot. With the increase in the number of teams. The Little League program has just taken off unbelieveable. ,.... Hoffman: We'll take a look at eventually, we'll probably take a look at creating a town team again. Adult baseball team for the city of Chanhassen for that type of facility there and neighboring communities...that have that type of team. I wouldn't be surprised to see that type of use. Schroers: Okay, what about Saddlebrook? Hoffman: The trail at Saddlebrook. Again, just an update to let you know that the construction is taking place. The aggregate is in. The neighbors have been met with on site there. They're the ones that had concern about how the grading was going to take place and how...property and that type of thing. I'm not sure if I mentioned it, I believe I did. The barrier post similar to the one they had at Lake Ann Beach will be installed there. schroers: There's going to be one post in the center of the trail? Hoffman: Yes. To deter that type of activity hopefully. Schroers: Okay. Are there any commission presentations? COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS: Andrews: I'll make one coment and that was the wind brace on the tennis courts and winter coming sooner. It will be ripped to shreds by the first of December so... There's 1,000 square feet of sail sitting up there and I know what it's like at North Lotus Lake. The fences are literally been pulled out of the asphalt somewhat by the wind blowing on those things so that's what happens. ,.... Pa,k and Rec Commission Meeting Septembe, 25, 1990 - Page 28 ~ Hoffman: Just to clarify, it's my opinion that we're going to make use of the wind sc,een which we currently have and not purchase additional wind screens. Look to putting in plantings and those types of things and just make do without. Lash: Did we talk one time about taking them down at North Lotus and putting them at City Center? Robinson: Yes we did. Lash: Inside and out? Hoffman: Yes. This fall when they come down, they'll evaluate what they have out at the storage barn. Put it away and then if we have enough to do anything in the spring, we'll do that and then we'll take a look at starting initial plantings at the tennis courts so eventually we'd have some natural screening. Andrews: I mentioned last time too about how the one volleyball net was gone. It must have been stolen I assumed. Somebody took it so. Mady: Somebody needed it worse than we did. Andrews: It's pretty sad because those things don't get that much use up there as it is and for someone to take one. .~ Robinson: And I also am told that the lights aren't working over here on the tennis courts. Hoffman: I've been informed of that also. Schroers: Anything else in Commission Presentations? What about the Administrative Section? ADMINISTRATIVE SECTION: Hoffman: Just a couple of comments on the Administrative Packet. You'll be happy to see that the park and trail dedication fees were approved by Council. The senior survey there is...commission take time to look at that if you haven't. Those folks spent a lot of time in evaluating their needs. In the past, they're somewhat... We talked to the folks that meet over here at the elementary school. They want to play cards and they don't... We try to reach them in our publication by advertising the other activities which they place at the Excelsior Senior Center... Mady: That was kind of interesting seeing that where you actually saw it in print where they started, you've got to realize we're a group from 55 to 105 and we don't all, because none of us have gotten there yet so you look at what you, parents are and you can't think of them in that respect and the only active seniors group you ever see in town are the ones that are playing cards at the school so that's what you think of. ,-.,. Andrews: I want to make one comment about that just to kind of tie it back to that Lake St. Joe Pa,k and that is that, more and more we concentrate on our active park uses. Playground equipment, ball fields, volleyball fields, Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 29 ,.... and tennis courts and so forth and looking at our population and how it's changing in age, I think you're going to see more and more, or less use of those active facilities and more and more appreciation of passive facilities. I think it's not too soon to consider that in our allocation of funds in the land that we do acquire. Lash: I don't see the active use getting less and less but I certainly think we could strive more at maybe more of a balance. Andrews: I think you do see less and less. I mean tennis was a sport that a few years back was just absolutely bonkers. I mean you couldn't get on tennis courts and now tennis courts typically, at least that I've seen aren't used that often. Look at the growth of golf. They attribute that to the aging of America. They say more people play golf now because the population has aged somewhat so I think there will be a decline in use and I think we should consider that. I mean we have a need right now that we do have to fulfill but maybe look at how a piece of property that maybe is set up for a ballfield could be returned to a passive state if possible or minimize the impact on the passive use areas. "" Schroers: I think your point is well taken and there are a lot of people, I think the majority of people on this commission are not, definitely not opposed to passive Use and natural areas. As a matter of fact, from the on set that Lake St. Joe area has been looked at as just exactly that. That type of an area. We had discussed several possibilities there. One of which was a boardwalk and other things like that. I guess I personally am not in favor of cutting right through the heart of the habitat. I think it makes more sense to, if we're going to have a natural trail, to put it out around the habitat a little bit more and have something that's a little easier to maintain and that sort of thing and destroy as little of the natural area as possible and blend it in but I think that that's pretty much what everyone is thinking for that area. We're not planning on looking at building a ballfield at Lake St. Joe. Mady: It's kind of cyclacle the nature of the commission. When I came on 5 years ago, we had just really gotten off of, the commission had been real nature oriented. I mean they did everything nature. This is right when Curt came on and they started turning the corner and we kind of went away from there and focused so much on active uses because We didn't have any and so now we're trying to hit that balance and it's tough to hit it because we're kind of gearing off the active but yet we've got all these new places coming in so. Andrews: The citizens, the taxpayers of today are demanding active uses. Qur ballfields are just overrun with players and when Todd talks about doubling the program in one year, that's incredible growth. Faster than the rate of the population growth by far so we have an obligation to fulfill that I realize but just look at, and I'm not saying that what we're doing is wrong. When you see a natural area like Lake St. Joe, you just can't afford to let it get away because you're never going to get it back again. Robinson: That's a good comment and Jim's right. ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 25, 1990 - Page 30 ~ Schroers: That's like Lake Ann also. The gentleman referred to Lake st. Joe as a jewel. If it's a jewel, Lake Ann is a mega jewel. Lake Ann is really special. Andrews: ...the plans of maintaining a park perimeter around Lake Ann and potentially maybe Lake Lucy in the future and those are going to be the center pieces of a really beautiful city. Mady: Tom Hamilton said it about 3 years ago. He said it's something like, the lakes in Chanhassen make it a great community but it also makes it's biggest headache. Having natural areas because what's great for one is not so great for somebody else and they're just always going to be clashing. To strike that balance is not easy. Andrews: Look what the City of Minneapolis went through with their lakes. They were natural. They were developed and they tried to take them, go back in the direction with park perimeters so, Lake phalen the same way in St. Paul. That's gone through... "'" Mady: You look at the history of the Minneapolis and St. Paul park systems and what the commissions and the park superintendents went through in the early late 1800's and the literal tar and featherings that were done and things of that nature. People didn't like the Minneapolis park system and the St. Paul park system. I believe somebody was actually killed in the St. Paul because of what they tried to do or what they actually did so it may not, and now it's looked at as probably one of the best park systems in the whole county for a city wide park system but it doesn't always meet with acceptance in the residents at the current time. Schroers: Is this all on record? Is Nann going to have to? Hoffman: Yes... Some comments on Oktoberfest. We're lucky enough, our department is coordinating the physical aspect, the layout... We're lucky enough to have the HRA providing the majority of the funding for that. As well we're lucky enough to have the Lion's, the Rotary, the Jaycees...who are doing the bulk of the work instead... We just went in with an additional 8,000 flyers in the Sailor this week. The flyer went out last week in the Villager and more ads in the news of this week. We're hoping for fair weather. Hope to see you there. lash: You don't need us to work? Mady: Clean-up. Hoffman: You could certainly help with clean-up... other than that, feel free to enjoy this one on your own. Mady moved, Robinson seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9=23 p.m.. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Recreation Supervisor Prepared by Nann Opheim ;"""