PRC 1989 01 10
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CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION
REGULAR MEETING
,..... JANUARY 10, 1989
Chairman Mady called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m..
MEMBERS PRESENT: Sue Boyt, Ed Hasek, Jim Mady, Larry Schroers, and
Curt Robinson
MEMBERS ABSENT: Carol Watson
STAFF PRESENT: Lori Sietsema, Park and Rec Coordinator and Todd Hoffman,
Recreation Supervisor
ELECTION OF OFFICERS:
Hasek: I just would like to move that we leave it the way that it is. I
don't think...for anyone to get a real handle on it so I think it's best
to leave Jim and Sue both in place. I'd also like to make a comment on
the rotating chair. I think that's an excellent chair and I think it's
something we should schedule and get started on. So that's my motion.
Schroers: Second.
rr-
Hasek moved, Schroers seconded to elect Jim Mady as Chairman and Sue Boyt
as Vice Chairman of the Park and Recreation Commission and that a rotating
chairman schedule be initiated. All voted in favor and the motion
carried.
Boyt: I think it would be helpful if we had something like a cheat sheet
for whoever's going to be the chair of the evening on this is the process.
Mady: On the rotating chair thing, I think first off we should let Lori
know who wants to do it. Unless we all do it.
Boyt: We said if somebody really doesn't want to do it.
Mady: If you don't want to, that's fine.
Hasek: I think it's a good experience if you like to or not. It's part
of the job. At least if somebody can't do it, absolutely can not do it,
there's no way they're going to be an officer. It helps us to make that
decision.
Mady: Aside from that, as an order of business for each meeting, what we
should probably do is have some kind of motion to elect, whoever's the
current chairman of the meeting.
Sietsema: Why don't you just appoint somebody for the next week so the
~ person has the time to think about it.
Mady: Definitely that but I was thinking, as an order of the meeting, it
should be done.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 2
...."
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Robinson moved, Hasek seconded to approve the
Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated December 13,
1988 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
SITE PLAN REVIEW, VER-SA-TIL.
Sietsema: I have to apologize. I don't have the large layout of this
down here. I can go get it if you want to take a minute or if you don't
have any questions, I can just whip through it very quickly. It's a
proposal to develop 8.29 acres into a 97,400 square foot office
manufacturing warehouse facility. It's located behind the Press on Quatro
Drive and West 77th Street. This is not considered a park deficient area
by the Comprehensive Plan as the property lies on the outer edge of the
service area for South Lotus Lake. There are sidewalks in place in that
area so staff recommendation is to accept the park and trail dedication
fees in lieu of parkland and trail construction.
Hasek: I don't see anything wrong with it at all. What's connecting to
the west. That's the only question I had.
Mady: Town Line Road isn't it?
Sietsema: Right.
...",;
Hasek: That's a residential area up there behind that swamp?
Boyt: On the other side of the tracks.
Sietsema: On the other side of the tracks? North of the tracks?
Hasek: No, on the south side. There's that big swamp in there behind
Kerber's. That's Kerber's old farm right?
Mady: Yes.
Hoffman: I'm not so sure that road connects there though.
Hasek: Is it going to? It must.
Sietsema: Yes.
Hase~; Or. is it going to dead end?
Sietsema: ~ The ultimate plan was for that street to go in and somehow
cross the railroad tracks and hook into Dell Road.
.;.. .'
Ha~e~: 184th was going to cross?
'- Sietsema: Right. But that's sometime, maybe longterm in the future or it""""
may not happen. I'm not certain. It's a residential area to the north of
the tracks. I know that and the south is the Press and Lyman Lumber.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 3
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Hasek: Is there sidewalks shown? Is that what I'm seeing?
Sietsema: Yes.
Mady: That's all industrial park actually.
Hasek: I'd like to move to approve it.
Boyt: Second.
Hasek moved, Boyt seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to accept park and trail dedication fees in lieu of parkland and
trail construction. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
REVIEW COMMISSION APPLICATIONS AND SET SPECIAL MEETING DATE FOR
INTERVIEWS.
Hasek: I had only one comment in going through these things as I reviewed
them. I would like to see some of those people from some areas that
aren't represented. That should be a qualification that we should look at
strongly.
r-
Sietsema: That's one of the criteria that's on the list. Let me give
some background real quickly here. In mid-88 the City Council directed
the Commissions to come up with a list of criteria for selecting
commissioners. We haven't had any vacancies until now so this has kind of
slid until this time. I feel that we've always had a list of criteria
although we haven't ever really written it. It hasn't been anything
written down. In looking back in the Minutes and the questions and the
things that we've had in discussions before, I have a list in the back of
the staff report of the four things that came to mind for me. And you may
have some additions or deletions that you want to make to this. One of
them was the membership should represent all areas of the city to the -~
extent possible. There had been times when we haven't had enough
applicants. We've had to continue to advertise because nobody's applied.
This time that's not the case. We have 13 applicants. The membership
should be representative of all areas in proportion to the total,,:.:
population so there may be more in the downtown area than there would be
in like the southern area or other areas of the city. Membershi.p should
be composed of a variety of careers and interest groups throughout the
community such as the business community, CAA, school representatives, ~
lawyers, architects, maintenance workers, accountants and so on.
Whatever. Housewives. So that we try to get a variety of different,
interest levels and perspectives as well. The last one was the membership
should, to the extent possible, include a variety of age groups. As long
as I've been here, we've never had anyone real young or real old. .Yod' H
guys have all been pretty much the same age.
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... .. '.
, ~ ...'.
Boyt: Are we going to discuss a list of questions ahead of time'? :',;,1 '.'
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 6
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Mady: I'll move to accept the criteria discussed with the inclusion at
number 3 giving preferance to standing committee members.
Boyt: Outstanding...
. standing commissioners.
Hasek: I think that's a good way. Outstanding. I think that's an
excellent way of putting it.
Sietsema: Can you say that again? Consider current?
Hasek: Membership should consider reappointment of standing, outstanding
commissioners who... Outstanding I guess gives us the chance of looking
at their...
Boyt: Attendance.
Hasek: Attendance record. You can write it so it will fit good with
these others. So that's part of it now. I'll second it.
Sietsema: Just for point of clarification. Can I amend your motion to
read that you recommend the criteria rather than accept?
Mady: Yes.
Sietsema: This is criteria being recommended to the City Council.
,...J
Mady moved, Hasek seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend the criteria as outlined by staff with the inclusion of an item
3 to read: Membership should consider standing, outstanding commissioners
wishing to be reappointed. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Sietsema: The next thing would be then to come up with a list of
questions that you want to ask in the interviews.
Mady: Do we also, I would guess recommend to Council, narrow down the
list of applicants based on applications? Unless you plan on interviewing
all 13. I know when my new job hires, I don't interview the person who
makes an application. It's only a criteria to narrow the list down.
Let's get on with the questions first.
Schroers: One question that I would like to see on there is whether or
not people feel as though they have the time to devote to this. I was
surprised, personally, at how much time was required. I really didn't
think that I was going to be putting this much time into this as I am. I
think just as much as a question as a point of information that we could
really clue the applicant that it is rather time consuming and they do
. need to make the commitment because if they can't be here, it's hard for
us.
-J
Boyt: The time has doubled since many of us came on board.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 7
~
Mady: We also met two meetings a month. I think that might be important
at least to mention to each applicant that the effort involved is not
simply coming to a meeting at 7:30 two Tuesdays a month until 10:00 at
night but includes a couple hours, there's a number of hours of
preparation time. Visiting sites on your own. Talking to residents.
Being available on the phone.
Sietsema: I think that's a good point. There were a number of months
when we met 3 and 4 time in a month rather than just the 2 and we really
increased the number of meetings in this last year.
Mady:
again,
As the workload increases, come spring, as development starts up
it's going to get heavier.
Schroers: At that point in time, I think we should ask for a raise.
Boyt: I'd like to ask them what expertise they will bring to the
commission. And I would like to ask them what they see is the future of
parks and trails in Chanhassen.
,....
Mady: One of the things I'd like to ask them is, their personal opinion,
impression of Chanhassen's total park and recreation system. How it's
operating. What it's strong points are. What it's weak points are and
what effort they can bring to making it a better system. Not that there's
anything wrong with it but what areas can be improved.
Boyt: I'd like to ask them what they see the role of the Park and Rec
Commission as.
Mady: I kind of like that question asked about giving any background as
to what we do. That way they're not conditioned. Responses being
conditioned. How their perception is of it.
Boyt: This can be an educational process for us too in that we can learn
from them.
Mady: We need to find out their thoughts as to where our efforts should
be placed. Are we placing too much emphasize on park acquisition at this
time and not enough on programming or vice versa? Where they feel the
dollars come from with what we do. That gives each of us an impression
what some of the residents think. Where the dollars come from that we
spend from. My impression is that I think all people feel it comes right
out of the property tax dollar.
Schroers: I would like to ask what their environmental and conservation
view for the City of Chanhassen would be.
Robinson: will how they answer these questions be a consideration on
~ their selection to the commission then? If so, it should be listed up on
the criteria. We're asking some pretty tough questions and if their
opinion of the park and rec is that it's really rotten, I just think those
are some very tough questions.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 8
"""""
Boyt: That is one of our criteria I think. Is how they respond to our
questions.
Robinson: Then I think it should be listed up in the criteria.
Mady: I fully expect that once all the questions are answered and I know
all this information will go to Council. We'll obviously make a
recommendation as to candidates. I would think we'd do something of a
ranking and also make some decision. Unless they're going to interview
the candidates, those tough questions really have to be asked.
Boyt: But it's not listed on our list of 5. We just need to add a number
6 stating that one of the criteria is the results of the interview process
before the Park and Rec Commission.
Sietsema: Wait a minute. I didn't get your last question and I don't
know how you want me to work that criteria so if we could back up just a
half a second. What was your last question?
Schroers: Mine was that I would be interested in hearing their point of
view on conservation and the environment in regards to the City of
Chanhassen.
Mady: Kind of in line with that is passive recreational areas.
....""
Boyt: In our set of questions too, we're not necessarily looking for
someone who mouths our point of view. We've seen that we all have
different views on issues and we need that.
Mady: One of the things we've had in the last year and a half or so is,
I know the first year I was on the Commission, I don't think in that whole
year there was ever a vote that was not unanimous. In this past year and
a half or so, we've had commissioners who were willing to vote no on an
item and then state your case which is good because it gives the Council
another perspective which is kind of what we're here for.
Sietsema: So your 6th criteria, do you want to say something that upon
interview with a list of questions, the candidate should be open minded
and have their own point of view?
Mady: I don't know that that needs to be in the criteria. What I was
thinking of was...
Sietsema: How do you want me to work the 6th criteria?
Robinson: What Sue said. What did you say? The results of the interview
process.
Mady: How you handle the answering of questions because as we found out,
as well all know, in dealing with the public hearing process, we're """""
constantly being asked questions and some of them are a little...tough.
You can't always please everybody so you have to be willing to make a
statement and abide by it. That's what you believe in. What we're
.,....
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 9
looking for is what someone believes in.
Schroers: I would think almost the first question we would want to ask
is, why do you want to be a park and rec commissioner.
Robinson: That's one of the questions on the form. Reasons for seeking
this position and special qualifications.
Mady: I think that's one of those questions though that you really get a
feel for a person when you ask them in person. Reading something on a
paper, it's real hard. A lot of us, especially me I think, don't put
things in words real well. Especially on paper.
Boyt: We can ask them if they want to elaborate on that. That's all I
have.
Schroers: How about running that list by us one time.
Sietsema: Okay. I have 9 questions. The first one is, do you feel you
have the time to make this commitment, explaining the extent of the time
and commitment involved. The second one is, what expertise do you feel
you can bring to the commission. The third, what do you feel is the
~ future of the parks and trails in Chanhassen. Fourth was, what is your
personal opinion or impression of the Chanhassen Park and Recreation
system. The strong points, weak points and what can you add to it. The
fifth was, what do you see the role of the Park and Recreation Commission
is within the City. The sixth was, what are your thoughts as to where our
efforts should be focused in the future. For example, programming,
acquisition, development. Seven, where do you think our park funds come
from. Number eight was, what are your feelings regarding conservation and
the environment in how it effects Chanhassen. Nine, can you elaborate on
why you want to serve on the Commission.
Schroers: How about if we look at each question one more time and see if
there's a way to refine it or improve it or if we want to add to it?
Whatever. Just go through each question one time.
Sietsema: Do you feel you have the time to make this commitment?
Boyt: Do you want to take a break and Ed should be back in a few minutes?
Mady: I would like Ed to be here for this.
Sietsema: Okay, we can come back to this. Do you want to move off of
this altogether because we need to decide if you're going to interview all
or some of them and set an interview date.
Mady: I'd like to table right now this item. I would almost ask, unless
~ anyone sees something on the agenda they would like to discuss with Ed
missing, to recess for no more than 10 minutes.
Schroers: Recess or maybe even just have an open discussion about the...
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 10
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Robinson: Can we go to some of the update items?
Mady: That's fine too. Let's do ll(a).
PROGRAM UPDATE: FRIDAY FAMILY MOVIES AND NEW 1989 RECREATION PROGRAMS.
Hoffman: A couple of these items are just brought to your attention.
ll(a) is a past item that I just want to make you more aware of or let you
know some details of how some new programs did. ll(b) are some new
programs coming up for this summer that our department will be taking
responsibility for. The Friday Family Movies was fairly successful. A
new family event. Something that drew some large crowds. As noted in the
report here, the best movies to show are for the younger kids. It was
like dads night out. The moms sent dad and the 3 kids out and they came
up to the movies and they really had quite a good time. Then I attached
just some of the methods in which we promoted the Friday Family Movies.
One being the new brochure and then flyers that were sent out to the
schools.
Mady: The flyers, I didn't see them.
Boyt: Yes, they came home. I it appeals to the younger kids.
Mady: That's good because those kids really have nothing to do.
Robinson: Did you pick the November and December timeframe specifically
or did it just happen to fall then? Wouldn't it be better to continue...
.-,
Hoffman: Better to go after the holiday season?
Robinson: That's what I thought.
Sietsema: You know what I think is that because it was the holiday
season, the mom sent the dads and the kids. Get them out of the house so
I can get it cleaned and get it decorated and get ready for the parties or
whatever. Go shopping or whatever. It seemed that that was the case. We
really did have a lot of dads and a lot of little kids.
Hoffman: That would be something to look to in the future. We could
certainly do it after the holiday season when there's less going on. The
final movie, the second week in December, I believe did correlate with
Christmas. It kind of had that type of, at least one of the films,
Pluto's Christmas Tree had something to do with Christmas so that kind of
added appeal as well. The other note, on matching revenues. It is a
self supporting program. We missed that by.about $175.00 which is no big
loss for a first year program. We ran 4 movies. The movies do cost quite
a bit and for $1.00 per person, we really did quite well on the revenue
end of that. With one year experience, I think next year we should have
no problem making that up. Any other thoughts or questions on that ~
program?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 11
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Robinson: I say continue, recommend that they continue again next year.
...at all in January?
Hoffman: Coming up next winter again. The movies that we order, we can
order them anytime. I ran it as, we purchased the four movies and then we
get this one free which is coming up. The new program which is on the
board there so it would be next year. Either November or December of next
year. January, February, something like that.
Robinson: So you're looking at just a couple months? Another 4 weeks?
Hoffman: Yes. I think we can't tire them out on something like this and
just go into next year.
Mady: So you wouldn't want to continue showing four a month November
through February?
Hoffman: We certainly could.
,....
Mady: My thought is that after December starts, there isn't a whole lot
going on. It's kind of a dead time. The kids don't want to be out. It
gets dark so quick and the kids don't have a whole lot to do. It gives
them an opportunity to get out of the house. I have a feeling that the
mothers really appreciated being able to send the dads and the kids out
and having some peace and quiet. At least I think my wife would.
Robinson: I think we should almost try it in January and February.
Mady: These seem to be the dead times.
Schroers: Where did this originate from?
Hoffman: We get a Walt Disney catalog and I thought it up.
Schroers: I think that's commendable. I think it's a good program and
obviously good work in planning went into it to make it so successful on
the first year. You can certainly have my support to do it again.
Hoffman: Thanks Larry.
Mady: It's one of those things that would really be nice if the paper,
local papers would give us a quarter page or one-eighth page ad or
something in the corner saying movie...
Hoffman: One little side quirk on the advertisment for these movies.
walt Disney has it in their contract that advertisements can not go in any
public medium. Newspapers. TV or radio.
~ Sietsema: We can't compete with theaters.
Hoffman: With regular theaters so we have to do totally this in-house
publication or flyers through the school. That type of thing. Even in a
news release for this skating party and the extra movie, we just can't
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 12
....",
state a Walt Disney movie. We can just say a film is showing.
Mady: Children's film.
Hoffman: Yes, so that's one of the odd quirks. ll(b), talking about new
recreation programs for this coming summer. It discusses the playground
program. That item was brought before the Commission probably a month and
a half ago where we talked about taking over the summer playground program
from both Minnetonka Community Education and from District 112 Community
Education as well. Both Chaska and Minnetonka community services did the
playground program within Chanhassen. Final preparation has been made for
that. We're still looking into developing some, taking the old and
changing it a little bit and develop it into new playground programs.
Adding one park site location up at North Lotus Park. Continuing with the
agreement with the City of victoria in continuing their program out there
as well. One updated note to this, at the bottom I stated that I've
contacted Becky Lyngaas who was the playground director in the past years.
Her approximate salary to do that for a summer, to be playground director,
is approximately $2,000.00. She has stated that she is looking into
another job and if we want to make an offer to try to get her back, that
that should happen fairly soon. That's one update on that. There's also
a possibility that we could get that as an internship student at quite a
reasonable cost to run that program throughout the summer and that's
another thing we're looking into to possibly cut some costs on that
program.
......,;'
Schroers: Would you be interested in making a recommendation to the
Commission then when you figure out which way you prefer to go with that?
Mady: Or are you leaning preferring most right now?
Hoffman: I guess we can discuss that one. However you want to look at
that. Becky has done it for the Chaska Community Education for
approximately 8 years. Her sister has also been involved in the program
for 4 years and stated an interest if Becky does not come back, that she
would possibly be available. We can also put it up for just advertise the
position as well and interview some people or we can go the route of
getting an internship student for the summer to help develop that program
and run it throughout the season.
Schroers: Are you happy with the way that she has handled it in the past?
Hoffman: From what I hear, being that we have not been in direct
operation of the program, I can explain a little bit how it works. They
have like 5 different locations and it's a Monday through Friday schedule.
Monday the playground director and the 3 playground or program
coordinators are with that director and they go to one playground site.
They operate that day, Monday, you're at Meadow Green. Tuesday you're up
at North Lotus. Wednesday you're down here at City Center. They operate
in that type of manner and it seems it's worked out and she's done a -'
pretty good job in the past.
Schroers: Is the $2,000.00 a problem?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 13
'""
Hoffman: We've paid that, we've had to pay that to community education.
They just send us a breakdown of what it costs so we've paid that in the
past and we certainly can continue but she is reaching the upper bracket
of the salary range for that type of position.
Mady: I know Chanhassen has used the internship program well in the past.
You both went through the internship program and this worked our real
well. When you're new and right out of school, you always bring in a lot
of new fresh ideas. A lot of excitement and interest in what you're
doing. I think it's a great idea to use the interns. I really do. They
ususally give 10 times the effort at a third of the cost. I've always
liked that idea. If Becky has something else that she's going to be
undertaking, I think we should take a strong look at the internship
program because it's nice to have that excitement.
Hoffman: Yes, it's something where an intern at this year, I would have
to put more input into it working with an intern but I would have to do
that anyway being that it's my first year to be involved in the program
even if Becky was back.
Schroers: That was my thought. I agree that new ideas and new energy are
often times beneficial but so is experience and I'd like to see the two
~ work together. I think you bring an intern in to work with someone who
has the experience.
Hoffman: I foresee, if not the director, we'll have some of the
playground coordinators back that were with the community education system
last year so we should have some base to work off of. I don't think it's
a good idea to change the program totally. We've got to keep some
continuity through it as we make this transition.
Boyt: It's been successful and I'd like to stay with someone...and bring
the interns in to work with them.
Mady: I have a question on that. At Lake Ann Park, people who use the
program at Lake Ann Park obviously have to buy the park stickers?
Sietsema: They did last year.
Mady: That's just since we're going to be discussing that tonight.
Boyt: Community Ed is mentioned in here in District 112 is looking for
people from Chanhassen to serve on the board. If anyone's interested, let
me know.
Hoffman: On their Advisory Board?
,.... Boyt: Yes.
Sietsema: The Community Ed Advisory Board.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 14
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Hoffman: The second program which we adopted is the summer tennis program
and that was run by Minnetonka Community Services. It just occurred at
Chanhassen Elementary. Now that we have the two courts at Meadow Green
and the two courts at North Lotus, we mayor may not be able to
incorporate those sites as well depending on the numbers that respond to
whatever program we come up with. I've been in contact with the
Northwestern Tennis Association. They're real helpful in starting up a
program. They have a lot of contacts as far as instructors and that type
of thing. They also have some real stringent guidelines for certain park
and rec tennis programs and stuff that you can either follow or you can
tend to amend to whatever would fit your need. Again, that's just an
ongoing program that hopefully, now that we have some ownership of it,
people will feel a little more a part of their community. That they don't
have to go to these two other locations. Either down to Chaska or
Excelsior to register for programs.
Boyt: I think that it will grow...
Mady: Do you need a motion?
Sietsema: I don't think so. Unless you want us to take a different
course than what he's doing.
Hoffman: Input and that type of stuff.
-...i'.
Mady: I think you've got our support on the decision to bring into
Chanhassen. I felt it was a good decision all along. It gives our
residents a base. If it's our program and start people. We are a
community of 10,000 people. We should be able to do things on our own.
We shouldn't have to go to Chaska or Minnetonka to do things.
Robinson: And the cost will be the same?
Hoffman: Yes.
Boyt: Something I'd like to see us look into is programming. I guess it
would probably have to be, for adolescent and teenagers. I don't think we
offer much for that age group and I think a lot of them work or are busy
during the day so maybe we could provide something for them in Chanhassen.
Hoffman: Meaning middle school age? What grades?
Boyt: Middle school and high school.
Mady: Aside from that. A while back, 6 to 8 months ago, the manager of
Filly's came to us with his thoughts on a non-alcoholic dancing night.
Boyt: This isn't a good time. Not after that girl got killed.
Mady: That was a tragic accident but... I was just wondering, do you ~
know, is that program still underway? I heard at one time it was real
active. It was late last summer.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 15
.~
Robinson: My kid was up there last Sunday night.
Mady: I was wondering if they still. The kids I talked to, and it's been
a couple of months now, but they really enjoyed it. Really liked it so I
was hoping that that was still going on because it's a program to show
them. . .
Boyt: It'd be nice to get an activity outside of a bar though. To have
volleyball for teenagers. Basketball outside for teenagers. Something
that is out... Not that that wouldn't go on.
Mady: That was something else. We need facilities.
Hasek: That was the one afterthought that I had on that program. That it
wasn't probably until a month later, somebody asked me about it...and I
started thinking about. We're letting kids into a bar. Are we starting
to set a trend?
Sietsema: Basically I think what we did on that is we told them that we
didn't have a problem with it but we weren't going to advertise or put our
name attached to it because there was a lot of people that were against
that type of an activity. Teaching kids how to behave in a nightclub and
they didn't think that would be appropriate for the City to be offering
J!I""""- that.
Boyt: We can offer some alternatives. Some other activities for those
kids.
Mady: We need to develop those but we also need some facilities to do
them.
Boyt: We can play tennis allover in the city. We have a few little
basketball courts. It doesn't have to be an elaborate set-up.
Hoffman: I have had a lot of thoughts on that Sue. You get into the high
school aged kid, and they're a little tougher to get into an organized
activity but that doesn't mean you can't attempt to create one and try to
get them into it. They have a lot busier schedules in high school. The
middle school, however are less mobile and a group that you can probably
really reach through using the middle school itself on some type of after
school programs or Friday nights or Saturday night programs. This summer
in fact, I was in contact with people at the middle school and community
education as well in trying to incorporate possibly a teen night or
something of that nature. Middle school kids are, most of them, they
don't have their drivers licenses yet. They have to be dropped off and
picked up and they're just a little more restricted so organized
activities like that work a little better. Where high school, they've got
so many opportunities for so many things already, it would take a little
more creative thinking to come up with something that they would accept.
~.
Boyt: I was thinking middle school, at night just open the gym every
Wednesday night. Half of it was basketball and half was volleyball and
you could just stop in and sign up.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 16
....,.;
Robinson: I'd really like to see something like that. Saturday
afternoon, it's a shame that kids that want to just go shoot baskets and
they can't do it up here at the school. We've got two gyms.
Boyt: When we're through with the basketball we can do that.
Robinson: And that's been true for years. In fact, a guy mentioned to me
when I was director of the basketball program, and the games were done so
we kicked them out and they wanted to know where they could go shoot
baskets. We had just moved from St. Louis Park and the gym was open all
the time on Saturday afternoon. Is it that we can do that if we have an
adult to supervise it?
Hoffman: Yes. Basically the school and community education, who
schedules that time, on the weekend they say you need to have a person on
duty, a janitor on duty during that time. However, during the youth
basketball program where Bill Webber is the coordinator and has prior
approval to go ahead and use that space during that time. It just takes a
little more bending arm to get the use of the space on the weekends.
Especially up here at the elementary schools. It's not that we can't do
it, we just have to...
Hasek: It has to be a janitor? It can't be another...
--'
Hoffman: Yes. They have replaced that in the youth program. They've
made amends there where they say, you can take responsibility. We'll give
you a key. You open the building. You make sure everything's put back.
There's no problems and it's closed up at the end of the day. Whenever we
run like the breakfast for Santa or anything on the weekend, we pay to
have a janitor in there at whatever, $13.00-$14.00 an hour.
Mady: A lot of times, that's just simply part of the janitor's union
contract. It's always fun when we talk about recreation programs. It
seems we spend about 95% of our time talking about park acquisition and
development and very seldom do we get the opportunity to talk about
recreation. Let's move back to item 5. The review of the applications.
CONTINUE REVIEW COMMISSION APPLICATIONS AND SET SPECIAL MEETING DATE FOR
INTERVIEWS.
Mady: We've come up with a set of 9 questions I believe it is. I think
we want to go over them again and get your thoughts and the rest of our
thoughts on how we can improve them a little bit.
Sietsema: The first one was, do you feel you have the time to make this
commitment? What expertise do you feel you can bring to the commission?
What do you feel is the future of parks and trails in Chanhassen? What ip
your personal opinion or impression of the Chan Park and Rec system and -'
what can you add? What do you see the role of the Park and Recreation
Commission is within the City? What are your thoughts as to where our
efforts should be focused in the future, i.e. programs, acquisition,
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 17
II""""
development...? Where do you think our park funds come from? What are
your feelings regarding conservation and the environment in the City of
Chanhassen? And can you elaborate on why you want to serve on the
Commission?
Hasek: Do you know what the role of a commissioner is in the
discussion...
Boyt: I think that's kind of included in the role of the commission.
Mady: None of these questions really are asking the same thing.
...they're basical personal philosophy of parks and recreation activities.
Schroers: How are we, as a commission, going to decide? What criteria
are we going to use to make the recommendation to Council?
Hasek: This list of 6.
Schroers: But I mean, are we going to score each participant?
Mady: I think that's up to each individual to rate, to keep track of them
as you go. I think it's a gut feel type of thing.
",...
Sietsema:
be because
philosophy
add up the
I don't think you all want to agree on what the answer should
that brings the diversity. You know, everybody has a different
but if you want to do a personal ranking of each question and
points and make your selection at the end that way.
Hasek: That's how it's going to happen. We're going to make
recommendations to fill those positions and those positions on the basis
of the applicants that we have. Is Council going to review these people
then too or not? Just us?
Sietsema: They may decide they want to interview them as well. I don't
know at this time.
Hasek: Is that what happened the last time around? Is that what happened
with me? I was interviewed by Tom.
Sietsema: It's been different. Now the policy has been set by the City
Code that the Commission should make the interviews.
Hasek: It wasn't set at that time?
Sietsema: But it wasn't at that time. Last time the Mayor decided he
wanted to interview all of the candidates and make the nomination.
r
Mady: Any thoughts on specific questions?
changed?
How they could be modified or
Hasek: I think the ones that I heard were fairly well structured. I
think the simpler and more direct the question, the easier it's going to
be for the people to answer.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 18
--'
Schroers: I agree with that.
Hasek: If you embellish it too much, it's too difficult to understand the
question.
Boyt: When I went through the interview process with another group,
instead of one person asking all the questions, it went down the line and
each person asked one of the questions on the list.
Hasek: A lot of businesses interview that way too. I think the amusing
thing about that is it puts a little bit of undue pressure on the person
that's out there. If you don't know where the next one's coming from or
the tone of voice that it's going to be asked in, it sometime is a little
biL..
Sietsema: Like where do you think we get our money.
Boyt: We'll see if they have a sense of humor.
Hasek: I think we should either choose one person, either the chairman or
perhaps Lori could ask the questions. I think if we're going to review
these people, it should be as uncumbersome as possible. I don't think
they should have to stand up in front of us. They should answer from
their seat. ~
Sietsema: Yes, this isn't a paid position.
Hasek: It should be as comfortable as we can possibly make it.
Robinson: In our office we've attempted, we've tried it both ways. We've
done with a group situation and really found it to be very intimidating.
Because all of a sudden it's just one poor little soul out here and this
group of people who are going to make or break their day.
Boyt: I think when we do it, we can sit at a table down here.
Mady: That would be nice.
Hasek: Yes, if we could sit around a table with just us and them. It
would be a we situation. I like that too. Even if we sit in just a
circle.
Mady: Except a lot of times it's more comfortable sitting at a table.
You've got something to put your hands, at least under the table so you're
not sitting there fidgeting.
Hasek:
This is going to happen next week or next time?
Sietsema: No. If there's no additions to the questions, I'll have those-,
typed up for each of you to have a copy. The next thing we need to decide
is, number one, are you going to interview all 13 candidates or select the
people that meet the criteria. Then the other thing is, to select a
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 19
,.....
meeting date.
Boyt: ...it might be the rational thing to do. To say, that we should
cut it, looking at our criteria... I don't know if it's worth it to spend
the time.
Hasek: Then it's going to take a whole night because I think all
questions asked, ought to be asked of each person and I don't think it
should be a group interview.
Sietesma: I think it's going to take a whole night regardless if you
interview 5 or 15.
Mady: If we do 13, it's going to be, you're going to be talking 6 hours.
Schroers: I don't think that 13 is all that many and I think we could
condense our questions a little bit and make them a little simpler and
just go through it.
Hasek: Or maybe ask 5 questions out of the group as opposed to asking all
9 or 10 questions that we've got. Maybe choose 5 out of the group.
(There was a tape change at this point.)
II""'"
Mady: I do have a concern on that. You're right Sue. We'll take some
flack in the community. We're going to take flack from the community
anyway.
Boyt: I think if we go through a process as fairly as possible.
Mady: I'm not worried about flack. I think we need to do this in a
businesslike manner and if half of these candidates don't meet 5 of the
criteria, there's really no sense in wasting our time and their time.
Robinson: I don't agree. I don't agree because I think, if they've
applied and we've got to go through the interview process. I'd hate to
say which one not to interview or to reject.
Hasek: The hard part about reading these things, at least with me is that
I don't know that I really got a good feel. You put three lines down for
a person, these are reasons for seeking a position and a lot of people
feel compelled to write only three lines. Maybe what they have to say is
a lot longer than that. I tend to agree. I don't want to interview them
all but I think from the standpoint that their application, I certainly
if I was going to take the time to fill out of the thing, I'd like at
least to have my day in court. I've got some personal feelings for that.
Not necessarily wanting to go through all of these but at the same time, I
have to agree Jim... The one thing that did bother me about the one
II""'" gentleman, and I forget...
Sietsema: The one that can't be here for March and April, or February and
March? Richard Mingo?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 20
.....",
Hasek: Yes. That's when we really start to get fired up. I think if it
was around Christmas time it would be different. But maybe he's willing
to change that or something. I don't know. That's going to be a long
meeting. We might as well let those people know that there's a chance
that.
Boyt: We can schedule a time of 15 or 20 minutes per person and ask them
to come 5 minutes before their time throughout the evening so they don't
have to sit here all evening.
Hasek: Excellent idea.
Sietsema: It's got to be not more than 15 minutes if you want to get them
all in in one night.
Hasek: Yes, you're looking at 3 hours right there.
Mady: And we may want to discuss it after they're through.
Hasek: I think it ought to be just a quick, I think 10 minutes is plenty.
Plenty to talk and then we'll reserve 5 minutes for. Well, see there's no
point in talking person by person. We might as well...
Mady: We'll run them through.
""""".
Hasek: So we'll take that extra 5 minutes per person on that 15 which
will give us, about an hour at the end that we can talk about it and make
our decision.
Boyt: We're going to have to cut down our questions to 2 or 3.
Schroers: I think we should cut down our questions. But I think when you
ask somebody, what do they see as the future direction of Chanhassen
parks. That would be an awful hard question to ask someone who hasn't
been involved with the park department in the city. How are they going to
know?
Mady: That question was asked of me when I was interviewed by the
Commission.
Hasek: Do you know how I answered that question? I told them, I said
I didn't know enough about the parks and recreation department to
effectively answer the question.
Boyt: That's a good question.
Hasek: What do you do? You either lie or you tell them the truth.
Boyt: I think we ought to ask them to elaborate on why they want to be a
commissioner. I think that's one of the important ones.
"""""
Hasek: How did you become interested in the parks and rec commission and
why do you want to be a park and rec commissioner? Do you understand what
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 21
~
your role will be? I think those are two very key things to ask. A lot
of people think that they're going to be able to corne on here and make a
great big difference all by themselves and it just doesn't happen. Also,
I think in reading through some of these, I think people have the
impression that it's our job to corne to these meetings and listen to the
people that are sitting here and only those people and that certainly is
not the truth. We're representatives of the entire community even though
we're from only one neighborhood. We're supposed to represent the entire
community.
Sietsema: Okay. So we're going to interview all 13 applicants and do we
have a date that we want to set aside because I've got a full agenda
already, more than full for the next meeting so we have to pick another
date.
Hasek: Then let's pick the followi~g. Can we do that?
Sietsema: How about next Tue(''''~;'y?
Hasek: Next week Tuesday? I won't be here. I've got a meeting in
Burnsville on Tuesday.
Boyt: We could do it upstairs too.
I!"'"
Sietsema: Yes. That would probably be more comfortable. Our next
scheduled meeting is the 24th. I just hate to wait too much longer. Is
Wednesday the 18th good for anybody? Then I could put it on the agenda
for City Council for the 23rd and that person could be picked and ready to
serve perhaps even the 24th.
Schroers: But will that give you enough time to get a schedule set up and
get the people notified?
Sietsema: Next Wednesday? Yes.
Schroers: That's not giving the applicants a lot of notice. It's not a
problem for me. I can make it.
Sietsema: Would you like me to send them a list of questions?
Hasek: No. I don't think that they should have to labor on it. I think
the spontaneity is going to be the better thing. When you go into a
interview of any kind, very seldom do you have the questions laid out that
you're going to be asked.
Boyt: Should we start earlier than 7:30? 7:00?
Hasek: 7:00 would be about the earliest that I can get here.
~
Sietsema: So the 18th is okay with everybody?
Schroers: will you be sending a memo on that?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 22
-'
Sietsema: Yes.
Mady: Was it necessary for us to have the criteria approved by the
Council first?
Sietsema: Oh that's a good )oi.nt. Yes it is. So let's go the week
after. That's right. If we wait until after the 23rd, there's no point
in rushing. We can do it the 31st then. It can be on the City Council
agenda then on February 13th. We've got a couple of weeks to play with in
there. If we don't get to everybody or if someone can't make it that
night, we can schedule it, maybe do two nights.
Schroers: That would probably be more reasonable.
Mady: The practical matter, when you notify the candidates, if they have
a problem with that night, they could be part of one of our formal
meetings. Give them 10 minutes.
Robinson: Am I an interviewer or an interviewee?
Sietsema: Both. You're a commissioner until you're replaced or you quit.
So I will put it down for Tuesday, the 31st up in the conference room.
Does anybody have a problem with that? Are we done with that item then?
Mady: We need a motion.
.....,
Boyt: No, we were going to shorten the list of questions.
Sietsema: What would happen if I put the whole list and then we could go
around the table and you can ask whatever question you want.
Boyt: I don't know if that's fair that one person gets asked...
Mady: I don't think you can pick and choose.
Hasek: I think we should probably have 3 or 4 questions and I think this
list can be reduced so it can be 3 or 4 questions.
Mady: We do have another meeting so I guess I'd like to see you bring
back to us at our next meeting. I want to make a motion that we recommend
to Council the criteria, the six criteria we discussed tonight.
Sietsema: You already did. You have to amend it to include the 6th one
but you already made the recommendation.
Hasek: Seconded. I just have one question.. Are these 8 or 10 questions
going to go or are you just going to say we've got a list of questions.
Boyt: Why don't you send the list of questions.
Hasek: The problem is, I don't enjoy all of these questions and I think
we should shorten the list.
...."
"....,
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 23
Sietsema: I'm going to type them up and bring them back to you on the
24th.
Hasek: So we get to review it before it goes to Council still.
Sietsema: The Council doesn't have to review the questions. That's your
criteria.
Hasek: That was my question. Can we send it with just point number 6?
Sietsema: Oh criteria. No. I don't think Council needs to see the
questions. If they want to ask different questions, then they can ask the
people to attend the City Council meeting.
Schroers: I'm wondering if we can't just decide on 3 or 4 questions right
now and get it over with.
Mady: I guess I'd like to see them.
Boyt: Curt has them written down.
"....,
Mady moved, Hasek seconded to amend the motion for the criteria for
candidate selection to include a 6th criteria which states, candidate
selection should be based on the interview conducted by the Park and
Recreation Commission. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
ESTABLISH 1989 LAKE ANN PARK PARKING FEE SCHEDULE.
""""
Hasek: A lot of comments on this from me I'll tell you. I think we have
to have it. I think we have to maintain a fee out there. Number one, if
we reduce it, if we eliminate the fee, it's going to increase the usership
of the park and the increase use is going to create more maintenance
problems out there. I think it's going to give us more problems with
security and drinking and a lot of other things and I think just a little
bit of security at the entryway in the form of a fee is going to help us
reduce some of that. Even though it's only a nominal fee. I would hate
to see that park get overused. It seems to me like the most intensely
used parks in this city all have the a fee. Those being the Hennepin
County park system. I enjoy them myself as a resident to be able to go in
there and know that the place is going to be at least halfway well kept
and maintained and my kids aren't going to be walking on all kinds of
busted beer bottles and stuff where they don't belong and so forth so I
don't think that a minimal fee is out of line at all. I would like to see
the fees probably reduced a little bit. I don't think they have to be
quite as high as they are. The suggestion of 6, 3 and 1 for the 1990, I
think is probably as low as we should have to go. If there's a problem
with paying for it at the entrance point that we've got, maybe that
entrance point can be moved. That's will have to be looked at in the
context of the overall...for the park once it's completed in the final
design. Another thing, I think if we have problems with special events
like swimming lessons or softball teams, some of those things, maybe we
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 24
....."
should figure out a way where that price can be worked into the fees for
those events and the participants get a sticker along with the event.
That way there shouldn't be any arguments about it. Maybe if you pay for
the swimming lessons, you get a sticker that goes along with the swimming
lessons. You end up paying for the sticker eventually. Or maybe you
don't pay for the sticker. Maybe it's just included with it but I think
if you have people that are out there manning the use of the park, I think
that's important to understand that there's more than simply showing up
two days at the park involved. A little bit of fee for maintenance of
that park isn't all that much.
Mady: I think my position is pretty well known on this. I'm totally
against having fees in parks. I feel parks are open space that all people
should have access to. I know that my position is probably a minority
position and Ed's thoughts on the people who are attending swimming
lessons, the softball teams, the play activities that take place at the
park, those were the people who were complaining last year. Some were
very vehement about it and caused some problems with the gate attendant. I
guess if we are going to approve park fees, recommend park fees for this
coming year, I would at least like to see us allow for the families who
have swimming lessons. If you're paying a fee, you should get into the
park. If you're paying to use that park already, some type of activity,
be it swimming lessons, softball, soccer, whatever. If your activity,
your recreational programs already cost them a fee, I would hope that we
would at least be able to use the facility.
.......,
Boyt: What about teams that are coming from another city to play against
a Chanhassen baseball team? Little children.
Hasek: I think that if it can be included in a fee, and they get a
sticker for it, I don't see any problem with that. Maybe that's reduced.
Maybe those are given, the cost for those is $2.00 instead of $3.00 or
whatever you decide is the final. Or $4.00 instead of $6.00 or something.
Maybe it's only the $3.00. Maybe it's for an event. I think it can be
looked at in a number of different ways but I really, I feel very strongly
that if we eliminate the fee, that park will go to hell in a hand basket
so quickly it will just make your eyes water. You've got no control over
useage out there whatsoever. While I agree with Jim that I think the
parks are for people and they should be free, I think in today's society,
it's just one of those givens. You need something under control. Even a
high school kid standing in a simple little box at the entryway is a form
of deterrent.
Robinson: I think this is the wrong time to be talking about a $23,000.00
item and whether or not we're going to charge a fee in 1989 or not. We've
got this, I hope, in our budget someplace. Somebody does. The income off
this and the expense.
Sietsema: It's a projected
again this year because we
varies from year to year.
$23,000.00 so it's not...
figure. We don't expect to get the $23,000.0r
don't expect the weather to be the same and it-,'
It is varied anywhere from $5,000.00 to the
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 25
'"
Robinson: For the last 5 years it's been, the most was $10,000.00. That
was 1984 so we must have had considered in our budget the total of
.$17,000.00 to $23,000.00 someplace in there and I don't think we should
discontinue that now. At this time. I guess I also, my opinion Lori is
that I don't think it buys us anything to phase it out, as you've
proposed. It sounds like the City Council, in their discussion, it was
either a fee or no fee. I think the $20,000.00 income is really
important. It wouldn't buy us anything, cutting the fee, in 1990. Either
we've got the money or we don't. I don't think we going to cut out
anything. We're not going to cut out lifeguards or any other services at
Lake Ann if we don't charge a fee. And one I hadn't thought of is like Ed
says, I guess I agree with that. A fee does provide some sort of control.
I don't see anything wrong with charging a fee to a resident for a program
like swimming lessons or whatever they have out there. I don't know how
you handle out of town baseball players. Maybe you make an exception or
something.
Boyt: Well a dollar seems pretty reasonable or $2.00.
Mady: One of the things you could do though with the Minnetonka teams
that come in is to provide the coach with a pass. A one time pass.
Sietsema: It's a hassle though to get a pass of some kind to little
~ Eddy's grandmother who's coming from out of town to see him play at Lake
Ann Park when they usually play up in Mound. What I would suggest is to
just tell the gate keeper that if they're there to watch the Little League
game, let them in. We can run it that loosely don't you think?
Hoffman: Basically the reason we tightened it up this year is because
that's an ordinance which is on our books and if it's an ordinance, we
shouldn't really be making arbitrary decisions on who we're letting into
the park and not. It should be a clearly stated ordinance and that's how
we should operate the park I believe.
Boyt: I guess the teams that are coming i.n should be notified when they
sign up to use our park facility that this is what our ordinance says and
let them notify their team members and families.
JII""
Hasek: I guess it's one thing to let the team and the team members in,
the parents of the team but if there's a spectator coming to the game,
they're going to the park to basically recreate just like anybody else.
My parents showed up for a couple of tournaments last year and I simply
game them the money to pay for the ticket to get them in the gate. Both
of them are senior citizens so they could have gotten in for free anyway
but I didn't see any point of it so I just paid for it. I guess it's one
thing if somebody's complaining about having to pay for their child to use
when they've already paid for softball or swimming lessons or tennis
lessons or anything else that might be going on there but if somebody's
complaining about getting in to having to watch an event, here's a little
more definite thing. The teams will all have, if we orchestrate it that
we gave them passes with the application and registration fee. The teams
then would have all of the stickers. One other thing we wanted to talk
about here is the segment for reduced costs too. We considered that last
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 26
..."",
year. Did we ever do that? A car reduction?
Mady: We talked about it last year and we said, there was really no way
of monitoring it.
Hasek: Yes. I do recall that.
Robinson: Somebody said it's really a parking fee which makes sense to
me.
Schroers: That's what it is and when you get into...cars and reduced
rates and all of that, you're causing a lot of administrative work.
Sietsema: Our receptionists have enough fees to keep track of.
Schroers: Your spending more than you gain in that situation. Is it my
turn yet? I agree strongly with Ed on several of his points. I think it
would be a major mistake to eliminate the fees. It's definitely a control
measure. People know that when they have to come and pay, it just gives
them a message that this is a place that's being taken care of and it's a
place where you're going to have to be responsible for your actions. If
it was free, the property would not be respected. I know that for sure
and I'd really hate to see that. I think that the 1989 schedule looks
just fine. I like dropping the daily fee from $3.00 to $2.00. I think
that's good. I would just like to see us stay intact as it is. I do -'
think that we could make some sort of provisions for youth groups. I
don't think it's fair to charge a Little League team a parking fee to come
in unless you set it up with their school district or something ahead of
time from where they're coming. That's the way that Hennepin Parks does
it. When we bus school groups in from various municipalities for nature
programs or whatever, there is like one parking fee per bus or something
that's been set up ahead of time with that school district or municipality
or whatever it is so you're not holding up a whole group while somebody's
trying to verify paying for parking. I think that when you set up the
Little League schedule or whatever, that's just a part of the procedure.
Other than that, anybody, whatever it is, 16 years old or whatever, should
have to pay the parking fee except for senior citizens.
Boyt: If we have many of the people arguing with the gate attendant, we
can have a policy set up of we need you to pay your fee today but I'll
take down this information and send it to my supervisor. If they
determine that you should have a refund, you'll get it in the mail.
Someway of dealing with it.
Mady: Take it up with City Hall.
Boyt: Well, if they live in Minnetonka or maybe there's a card that we.
give them, here contact this person. You have a set way of dealing with
it.
Robinson: Take the park attendant off the hook.
....",
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 27
,......
Hoffman: Yes, we instruct them not to take any verbal abuse. Just to
handle the situation in the best possible manner. However, to yet be firm
but to get out of the situation without getting into an argument, verbal
argument with the person at the gate.
Schroers: A sign right at the gate that specifies park rules and parking
fees and that sort of thing also beefs up his authority. I think that's
real helpful. It's right there in writing. People can't argue with him
about it.
Hoffman: We put the sign out there this summer that said, welcome to Lake
Ann Park. Parking sticker required. Fees are etc. and that does give
them a little more credibility.
Boyt: Maybe t-shirts for our...
Hoffman: This year Sue. We're already there.
Boyt:
their
Ann.
they
more
Uniforms for gate attendants. We see them sitting out there doing
crocheting at South Lotus Lake or reading their comic books at Lake
They don't look professional. They're going to get hassled. If
have on a uniform, if they're acting professional, they'll be treated
professionally.
""""
Schroers: I think any organized park that you go to, you're going to find
that there's a fee. Whether it's a state park or a federal park, there's
some kind of fee and where there isn't, for example maybe a Minneapolis
city park, they are patrolled heavily. Park police with regular police
with scheduled patrol routes and that's the other option. If you don't
charge a fee, then you have police out there all the time and I don't
think that that's what you want.
Hasek: That was the last point and I couldn't find it and I found it
afterwards. What it's going to do, I think if we take this fee away, it's
going to tend to drive up costs in other areas. In maintenance and
patrolling. I think it's going to, rather than helping us to cover the
costs, it's going to end up costing us so it's going to be a double
indemnity.
Schroers: I agree with that, yes.
Robinson: When we took that survey, it was relative to the community
center but we gave them some choices and wasn't the user fee the way that
most of them proposed to pay for it. So this is kind of like that.
Schroers: Yes, that's what it is, is a user fee. Jim's theory is great.
A free park. Everybody can go in and if everyone would treat it with
respect, that would be great but it won't happen.
""""
Boyt: Are the season passes available at the gate?
Sietsema: Yes.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 28
-'
Hasek: It sounds like we're fairly much in agreement here. The only
question would be the fee structure. I guess just in relation to that,
I'd like to suggest that we set the fees, I think that the comment about
the budget is probably appropriate. I don't know if we reduce the fees to
8, 4 and 2 if that's going to dramatically impact what we get out there. I
think we're slated for another dry year this year. That's what the
predictions are going to be so I'm assuming that we can still collect a
substantial, at least I'm going on the impression that we can collect a
substantial amount for that if we charge a daily of $2.00 instead of the
daily of $3.00, at least that's a step in the right direction for some of
those people. $2.00 nowadays doesn't buy you, what's a pack of
cigarettes cost?
Hoffman: The daily fee, reducing that from $3.00 to $2.00 would be the
most appropriate. If we're going to keep that fee there, lowering them
from $10.00 to $8.00 and $5.00 to $4.00. Again, people aren't arguing the
amount. They're arguing whether they're paying or not so $10.00/$5.00,
daily at $3.00, some people that want to come watch a game, might not
think of $2.00 as intrusive.
Schroers: I agree with that. I think that's a good fee structure. 10, 5
and 2.
Hasek:
there.
The $2.00 daily I think is the only thing that I was shooting for
We can't charge more than twice for a non-residents right? -,.
Sietsema: Right.
Schroers: How many non-residents, just out of curiosity, do we sell many
non-residents?
Hoffman: It's a small percentage. 5% to 10% of the seasonal passes.
Hasek: I'd like to make a motion that we set the fees at $10.00, $5.00
and $2.00 for 1989 and can we push that down the road a little bit so we
don't have to talk about it every year.
Sietsema: It's in the ordinance we have to talk about it every year.
Hasek: Okay, for the 1989 season.
Schroers: I'll second that.
Mady: Did you want to talk about phasing them out?
Hasek: I don't think that they should be phased out. I think that should
be stated. I think that there are good and valid reasons for keeping them
in place. The security issue. The budget issue. The maintenance issue.
The double indemnity based upon cost. Users getting in there and tearing
it up and we're going to have to pay to fix it. I think the costs there ....",'
need to be controlled so I think some of those issues that we talked about
should be included in there so they understand why it is that we want to
keep them. It's not just a matter of raising money. There are a lot of
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 29
I"'"
things that are involved.
Mady: So your motion is that the fees be $10.00, $5.00 and $2.00 and not
be phased out?
Hasek: Exactly.
Hasek moved, Schroers seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recomend to set the fees for Lake Ann Park at $10.00 for the seasonal,
non-resident; $5.00 for the seasonal, resident; and $2.00 for the daily
user fee and that the fees not be phased out over the next two years. All
voted in favor except Jim Mady who opposed and the motion carried.
Robinson: If we have to talk about this every year, could it be talked
about in the August timeframe?
Mady: I think the fees have to be set by the first of the year so...
Hasek: Does that mean you can't talk about them earlier?
Robinson: Because I really think it is too late to be talking about
,..... 1989...
Schroers: When we're into '89.
Mady: The only problem is, if the Council were to abolish the fee, then
Don's budget has a hole.
Sietsema: But he took that into consideration when he made his
projections.
Mady: I realize that. When he makes his budget out...
Sietsema: He anticipated that that was going to be lowered because he
knew what the Council's direction was.
Mady: The City's budget does have some deviation.
ESTABLISH 1989 PARK AND TRAIL DEDICATION FEES.
Hasek: I don't see any reason to change it, just a quick comment.
Sietsema: I have a couple comments if you could bear with me. This item
was brought up at the Council meeting last night under Council
presentations and the Council indicated that they would, or some of the
~ Council members in any case, indicated that they would like the Commission
to consider looking into raising them because it doesn't appear that we
can purchase property outside of a subdivision with the money that we're
collecting. For instance, 1 acre per 75 people, let's say Pheasant Hills
was coming in right now for subdivision and we determined that the land
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 30
-..fill"
within Pheasant Hills was not adequate parkland. It wasn't what we wanted
for parkland. The amount of money that we would get from that property at
$425.00 an acre, would not buy us 1 acre per 75 people next to it. A flat
piece next to it because when we get land through subdivision, we get it
at raw land value. When we get it through, it's a straight purchase. We
have to pay whatever the going rate is. So if it's already a developed,
platted piece of property, we have to pay what that lot is. But if it's
through the subdivision, we pay what the developer paid for it.
Hasek: That is a question exactly that I asked when we talked about this
last time. I think the answer that I got was, that by law we couldn't ask
more than the raw land value of the property.
Sietsema: Right, but...
Hasek: So then we can't base it. It's changed?
Sietsema: No. You can change your criteria. You can change your
standard to 1 to 50. You can work it backwards. If you want to charge
$550.00 per single family unit, then you make your standard work for that.
You change it to 1 to 50.
Hasek: Oh, I see.
Boyt: A similar argument is the trail fees. We can not put in a trail on~
a third acre for $142.00. Our trail fees for single family unit does not
cover putting in a trail.
Mady: One of the comments made last night was that we're basing our trail
fee on the Lakeville Ordinance and when we set our trail fee we weren't
aware that Lakeville's trail fee really covers their community trails. Not
the trail that runs in front of the house because in Lakeville they
require sidewalks in addition to.
Boyt: So we could make the recommendation to Council that sidewalks be
required in all developments and maintain our $142.00 trail dedication fee
on top of that.
Mady: Or increase it.
Sietsema: The way the Lakeville Ordinance works, if you want, they have a
street plan. Because they don't have all their streets already in place
so when they put in a new street, they include trails on both sides of
that street. They assess one-half of that cost with the street costs.
They collect a trail dedication fee to pay for the other half and they
require sidewalks in all subdivisions.
Hasek: I'll tell you, I'm certainly not opposed because in the cities
that I have worked in, we have some of the lowest that I have ever seen
and the last thing that a developer, I mean when you corne in with trail -'
and park fees, the developer that complains about those is the one that
I'm afraid of putting a development in my community because I'm wondering,
if he can't pay this, how's he going to pay for everything else. It's a
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 31
,....
very small line item when you look at it overall. So I'm certainly not
opposed to it. I think last year I was fighting to raise them as high as
we could and the issue that I got back from the Attorney was that we
couldn't.
Sietsema: Not according to our standard but we could change our standard.
Hasek: Then I think that we ought to consider changing...
Sietsema: I worked out, if we changed it to 1 acre per 50 people, it
would be roughly $525.00 or $550.00 per single family.
Boyt: Would that then even out so that we could buy property?
Hasek: What's that? It's $550.00? Is that what we're looking at?
Sietsema: At 2.8 per household, how many houses would it take to make 50
people?
Ma d Y : 16 .
Sietsema: 16 homes have to buy an acre of property.
,.... Mady: In Minnewashta we're looking at trying to find parkland and a
developer told us if "he could find parkland at $15,000.00 an acre, he'd
grab it.
Hasek: That will buy half an acre. $8,800.00. 16 households at $550.00.
Mady: But we're looking at the Carrico property with the appraisal in
here, if we can get that, that comes in at roughly $6,000.00 an acre.
Sietsema:
$13,000.00
It depends on who you talk to.
an acre.
If you talk to Carrico's, it's
Mady: I understand that but I think there's a halfway point there
somewhere between $8,000.00 and $10,000.00 an acre. It's probably what
the reasonable...
Boyt: Right now we're talking about land in Chanhassen going for over 16
isn't it?
Hasek: 15's the number that I heard.
Boyt: That's what the school district is looking at when they're looking
at purchasing property to build a school. That's the number you deal
with. You can't develop outside of the MUSA line. I think that's a
number that we need to deal with is $15,000.00 as a reasonable number.
,.... And what does it take for us to get $15,000.00?
Hasek: Well, it would be $550.00 for 25 households or they would have to
double the other end. We've got to double something.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 32
....."
Schroers: I very much like the idea of having the development put in the
sidewalks.
Hasek: That would cover it. I was just looking at that too. If you take
a 90 foot residential lot, 90 foot wide residential lot at $7.00 a foot
for a trail, that's $620.00 for that one unit. We're only collecting
$142.00. We're pretty short.
Sietsema: You've got a Lake Susan Hills West, you've got 90% of the homes
that don't have it going in front of their house. You've got Kurver's
Point and everyone of them has it. There are some inbalances that
hopfully it averages out. It's not going to work out on a Kurver's Point
case but it's going to work out.
Hasek: I think that what we ought to do with the trails, just my own
quick opinion here, is to establish exactly which, in the downtown area
here or in small residential developments, there's no reason why we can't
put the sidewalks in right in front of them with the development. The
stuff is out there. It's real easy for the developer to do up front. If
he's got to corne in later to do it, it costs a little bit more. The trail
dedication fee can go to trying to purchase some trails where we need to
put them. The only problem is community trails. Our problem is, we
don't have the money that we anticipated that we were going to have to do
the trail program and I can guarantee you that, well we've already seen i -'
happen. We've got one group in here now that wants a trail. There's
going to be more. I'm certainly going to keep continuing to push for one
down Minnewash~a Parkway. I mean we have nothing out there. I'm just
waiting for somebody to get killed out there.
Sietsema: Then the suggestion from one of the councilmen last night was
then, that this commission needs to make a recommendation to City Council
and to the Planning Commi.ssion to make sidewalks a subdivision
requirement. Then we would continue to have our trail dedication fee
which would cover our community trails.
Schroers: I'd be very interested in making that recommendation to that
effect.
Sietesma: And we could continue to leave that at one-third of the park
dedication costs.
Hasek: But then raise the park dedication costs to cover...
Mady: The fees.
Hasek: Well, we can't do that. I can't see that we need, that we're
going to get away with 1 per 25.
Sietsema: No, but you've got to remember that in most cases we're going
to be acquiring the parkland within the subdivision. ....."
Boyt: Except in northern Chanhassen where there's little parcels here and
there.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 33
,....
Sietsema: There are only two areas that are really park deficient and the
other bulk above TH 5, when the MUSA line changes, will have other parks
in that area so then that theory will work again. I think if you want to
raise it to balance it out, in most cases, when we get the parkland with
the subdivision, we'll get the land and the money to develop the land.
Because we give them 50% credit because we get the land at raw land value
and in other cases we're going to have to pay more than that but I think
it's going to average out. I don't think that that's an unreasonable
figure.
Hasek: Have you talked to Don about this at all? About the numbers?
Sietsema: Yes.
Hasek: Was this his suggestion? Look at changing the...
Sietsema: That's really, yes, that's really the only legal way we can do
it.
Robinson: Is that reasonable Lori? To go with 1 in 50?
Boyt: Yes it is.
,....,
Mady: Yes. We already know we aren't handling our parks. Tonight's
agenda, we've got the girls softball team who can't find a place to play.
We just don't have enough parkland where we're cutting back programs now.
I don't have a problem with that at all.
Robinson: But will somebody hold us to that?
Sietsema: I hope so.
Mady: I think our existing condition demonstrates that 1 in 75 is
inadequate.
Hasek: Are we built up at 1 in 75?
Sietsema: I haven't actually gone out and counted all of the homes and
taken the number of parkland acreage, but not recently. Well, we did that
last year.
Boyt: We were over the majority. We're still short. We still have the
people who are coming in and asking for park spaces so that leads you to
believe that what we require is...
Hasek: So the situation still remains that if we do raise it to 1 in 50,
that's not going to cover our... That's only going to yeild half of what
,...., we need to buy an acre of land.
Sietsema: Outside of a subdivision but if you acquire the property
through the subdivision process, it's going to acquire land plus
development funds.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 34
....."
Hasek: Okay. Is half going to be enough to cover the other situations?
What happens if a subdivision like Pheasant Hills comes in and we need a
park adjacent to that and they're in a sewered area? They're going to be
giving us roughly half of what we need to buy the land to provide a park
for them right?
Sietsema:
Right.
Hasek: So that's not going to cover it which means that we have to, I
assume that we have to have a budget someplace that's going to allow us to
continue to buy parks. Where does that money corne from? Does that corne
out of industrial areas then? I guess I can see where we don't need
development, half might be enough.
Mady: I think it's reasonable because we do require park now. Maybe
that's what we do look at a little bit also as a part of this is what we
charge for our industrial users. Industrial corning in. Right now we're
at $1,000.00 something.
Sietsema: $1,050.00.
Mady: And that's real, compared to...
Hasek: Now why is that at $1,050.00?
....",
Sietsema: Per acre.
Hasek: But why? Is that the same critieria? So then we can change that
as well?
Mady: I believe the last time I saw Eden Prairie's, it was like $1,750 or
something like that.
Sietsema: We base the industrial requirement at 10% because that's proven
in the courts as a reasonable requirement so I will continue to do that.
Mady: But what we're saying is, that's 10% of property value. Property
value we're saying here is $15,000.00 so 10% should be $1,500.00.
Sietsema: We have to base, I got the figures from the County Assessor and
he says the average land values in Chanhassen are $10,500.00.
Mady: But we got that same number two years ago and we all know that land
prices have gone up.
Sietsema: We got that number last year.
Mady: They're not going up much but he's right, they may have gone up 1%
in the last year but he tells us every year we talk about this that they -'.
haven't changed.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 35
,,-,
Boyt: It's an average because so much of our property is outside the
MUSA line.
Hasek: Can't we set it? Does it have to be a number? Can we set it at
10% of the land value?
Sietsema: No, it's 10% of the development. Yes, the land value. Right.
Hasek: Is there a way that they can fudge that number? Can the sale
price be screwed around with or can we ask them to prove what they paid
for the property and we'll take 10% as the dedication fee?
Boyt: A lot of them don't know that because the value of the land isn't
broken out in a contract. Sometimes you're paying for other things.
Robinson: I think you've got to have a dollar amount.
Sietsema: Adminstration wise, we need to have a standard because
otherwise it's difficult to adminster. I get every building permit that
comes into this city and I have to sign off on it. Putting down the park
and trail dedication fee. If I have to do something different for each
one, from an adminstration point of view, it makes it more difficult. So
we were working with averages and trying to set a standard.
,;JII"I'i'
Hasek: How about the multi-family then? Would that go up as well? The
percentage the same as this other?
Sietsema: Yes. The multi-family would go to 1 in 50. 1 acre per 50
people.
Hasek: Yes, but what would that number raise to?
Sietsema: I'm not sure. I haven't worked through all the different
scenarios so what I would do, is ask you to table this and I'll bring back
a worksheet like I did last year which outlines all of the different
scenarios.
Mady: Actually what we're looking for is a 50% increase?
Sietsema: And to direct me.
Hasek: Except...
Mady: No, if you go 1 to 50, that's a 50% increase in useage which means
you can only go a 50% increase in your fee.
Schroers: Does identification fees go into the general park fund?
,;JII"I'i'. Mady: It goes to our Capital Improvement.
Schroers: It's not in the same budget for maintenance costs?
Sietsema: No. Totally separate.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 36
--'
Hasek: I'd like to move that we table this item until Lori can work up
some numbers.
Mady: Including our thoughts on adding trails.
Sietsema: Why don't you make a separate motion on that.
Hasek moved, Boyt seconded to table action on the 1989 park and trail
dedication fees until staff can bring back some numbers. All voted in
favor and the motion carried.
Mady: I'll move that we recommend that the City require that sidewalks be
placed along all roads and subdivision by the developer.
Hasek: Do we want them on all streets? Or do we only want to do that
inside the MUSA line? Are we going to make somebody that wants to come in
outside the MUSA line, put in sidewalks?
Mady: The MUSA line is going to be changing 10 years from now. It's a
given the MUSA line is going to change 10 years from now.
""""""
Sietsema: And at that time, those 2 1/2 acres and 10 acre lots are going
to resubdivide and that would be the time to put in the sidewalks.
Hasek: I have a quick question for you related to that. Does the City at
this time require a further subdivision plan at all?
Sietsema: A ghost plat? No.
Hasek: Why?
Sietsema: I don't know.
Hasek: Mr. Mayor, there's something for you. Something that should be
considered. A lot of cities are requiring it now. You come in with a 2
1/2 acre plat outside the MUSA line and they want to see how it can be
further subdivided for that time in which it becomes inside the MUSA line.
The whole reason is to maximize the development and tax base down the
line. If you've got somebody who puts their house dead square in the
middle of a 2 1/2 acre lot. The other thing it keeps you from doing is
having to have all kinds of variances down the line because, well I put my
house in the middle of the lot and I can't subdivide it and the City wants
me to subdivide and I have to reduce the front yard and sideyard setback.
Robinson: You should go to the Planning Commission.
Hasek: Yes, but that can come down from the top though too. It's
something to think about.
..".,
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 37
,....
Schroers: Just think how nice this city would be if sidewalks had been
required in all the developments like Chaparral and even Greenwood Shores
might have been a lot nicer neighborhood.
Hasek: One other bug I'm going to put in your ear on that item too and
then we'll just move right along. I think the City should be considering
a link-up of properties. If a guy divides 10 acres, he puts 3 cul-de-sacs
in it and there's no connection to the next piece. What a headache for
the fire department. If you make one wrong turn and it costs you 5
minutes in travel time to a fire because you've got to go in and turn
around and come back out again. There's no reason why there shouldn't be
a connection or a thought of developing the property next to it. Just
another bug.
Mady: Did you bring your soapbox today?
Sietsema: Did I hear a second to that motion?
Hasek: Second.
Mady moved, Hasek seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend that the City Council and Planning Commission amend the City
,.... Code to require that sidewalks be placed along all roads in subdivisions
by the developer. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
DISCUSSION OF 1989 JULY 4TH CELEBRATION.
Hoffman: This item was tabled on the last agenda so we do need to get
through it on this one. We've already had people call to inquire about
contracts for this coming year and that type of thing. I hope everybody's
gotten a chance to look through some of the stuff that was included with
last weeks packet. What I would like from each commissioner is just their
viewpoints, ideas. Probably most of you attended some or all of the past
few 4th of July celebrations and just to get some input on what direction
we should be taking and those types of ideas.
Schroers: Buy balloons that are already blown up.
Boyt: I think that the street dance went well.
I would like it someplace where you can spread
next to it rather than just a parking lot. We
years ago. People have asked if we could have
Real well where it was.
a blanket out on the grass
had it up here a couple
it at Lake Ann.
Mady: Lake Ann really wouldn't be feasible...
Boyt: We had trouble shooting off fireworks here but...
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 38
.....",
Sietsema: We have trouble shooting off fireworks anywhere.
Mady: You can see the fireworks, you don't necessarily have to have them
straight over your head. From up here, you can see them from Lake Ann.
This park has to be probably one of the highest points in the city. If
you ever stood out there and watched your kid played soccer and almost get
blown off the field, you know it's not the low point.
Hasek: Why have we decided that Lake Ann just simply won't accommodate
the parking?
Sietsema: I think that the staff is looking at Lake Ann again and
hopefully the development out there will be done to a point where there
will be additional parking. But you have to allow parking on the grass.
The traffic off and onto TH 5 is really a headache, especially if
everybody's leaving at the same time.
Hoffman: Just look at what it is during a normal softball evening.
Mady: I remember what it was 3 years ago when I was out there with the
Jaycees and we had...
Hasek: I would like to see us try it out there again.
...."
Sietsema: We've got more parking out there already than we did 3 years
ago. But one of the reasons that we did move it up into downtown was to
do it adjacent with the HRA's celebration of the downtown development and
that's why we've had it in the downtown area for the last, what's it been,
3 years.
Mady: It's also nice in that a lot of people can actually walk to it.
You go to Lake Ann, everybody has to drive. Almost everybody.
Sietsema: We could do some shuttling. That might be an option.
Mady: We simply have an exit/entrance problem with Lake Ann. When you
have that many people, if there's an emergency out there, you can't get in
and out of there. It just won't happen. If you've got, a tornado came
in, that's it. No one's going to get out. Until we get that rear exit
out of Lake Ann, the park developing the street, Park Boulevard and the
park road moving in so the park entrance changes, I don't see how we can
do it with that number of people.
Hoffman: Just looking at what the layout could possibly be this coming
year, the 4th falls on a Tuesday meaning that previous Saturday and Sunday
would be the daily activities out at Lake Ann. The street dance and the
fireworks normally went off on the 4th of July. With the downtown, we
just can't very feasibly do the fireworks in our downtown area. Whether
it be City Center Park or downtown or anywhere so we're looking to move ~
the fireworks back to Lake Ann but then can we move the street dance to
Saturday night and not do it on the traditional 4th of July night and just
have fireworks on the 4th of July or do you want to have the street dance
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 39
,....
going on at Lake Ann. Try to do that with the parking problems and then
have the fireworks as well and then see what kind of nightmare we fall
into? We could rearrange the structure of our normal traditional holiday
fesitval.
Mady: The problem with Lake Ann also is, when the people are leaving,
after the fireworks, we have no lighting out there. We have a lot of ball
players, when we turn off the lights, you can't see out there. You get
down by the lake and you can't find your car.
Boyt: It sounds like the street dance on the weekend night might be an
alternative.
Robinson: I agree.
.
Boyt: To separate the two activities.
Hoffman: In the downtown location?
Boyt: Yes.
Hasek: Now the whole point is that, I think what if the people from
Chanhassen here, drive to Lake Ann to watch the fireworks when they can
~ see them from their house?
Hoffman: A portion will but then...
Sietsema: ...nearly as busy as the first year when we had people like
I've never seen people at Lake Ann Park the first year because the 4th of
July was in the middle of the week so everybody had Wednesday off and
nobody was going to go out of town for the one day. The next year it was
on a Thursday and businesses gave people Thursday and Friday off so we
didn't have nearly as many people for the family games and the softball
tournaments and stuff but people came out there for the fireworks so there
was still quite a bit of traffic and stuff.
Mady: Some of the thoughts I have on why our program diminished on the
second time around was, people seemed to remember how bad it was. I think
that's one of the reasons why the participation was maybe down at the
Halloween party this year over last year. It was such a conglomeration of
people. You'll do it once but you're not going to do it a second time
because you remember the next year. You remember, you're not going to put
up with that kind of a chaos if you don't have to.
Hoffman: Giving them some alternatives, the downtown location gives
people all sorts of alternatives. They can walk. They can park in so
many different lots. It gives them much more freedom in getting in and
out of the situation.
,.....,
Schroers: I thought that this past 4th of July went really well. It
seemed like people were having fun. It seemed like people were
accommodated. That juggler guy, the people him. That was a great idea.
Get him back. The characters sketch people were great. They had a steady
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 40
...-/
line. Get them back. The whole program was good. It went well. The
only thing lacking was the fireworks. I would say just incorporate the
same program and try to get the fireworks in somehow. It worked well.
Mady: The Market Blvd. that we' used for the Octoberfest is nice because
by next year hopefully we'll have a little parkland down around the pond.
That might give us the greenspace that we definitely are lacking at the
Dinner Theater. Market Blvd. you would think would be through by then.
Sietsema: It should be but again, I don't think we can have fireworks
downtown.
Hasek: How about Lake Susan Park?
.
Sietsema: That won't be ready for this year.
Hasek: It doesn't have to be ready. How about just having all the events
downtown and shooting the fireworks off from there?
Schroers: How about shooting the fireworks off from right back here?
Boyt: We can't.
Hoffman: It's just getting too congested.
--'
Sietsema: With the apartment buildings and Saddlebrook and Chan vista
and Western Hills and the downtown, all the residential, we had problems
before Chan vista was there with ashes landing on people's roofs and the
fire department had to go and spray the roofs and make sure people's
houses were safe. Now with Chan Vista, we're shot them off at
Chanhassen Pond Park and now with all those homes around there, I just
don't see that there's anyway that we can do it.
Hoffman: Those guys are professionals and they're nervous. It doesn't
make you feel comfortable.
Hasek: Is there any reason why you couldn't see them if they went off
down there?
Hoffman: No, it's just the effect.
Sietsema: If you got them right over your head...
Hoffman: If it's possible to get the people that want to be underneath
them, underneath them...
Hasek: You're going to have the events where? In the parking lot or up
here? If you have the events up here but not the fireworks. Everybody
would be on the hill right? Is there any chance that you could shoot the~
off someplace in this industrial land down here or Filly's parking lot? ~
Sietsema: If the wind blows the other direction and you burn down the
Dinner Theater. I really think that the downtown, the whole downtown area
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 41
,.....
is not an option for fireworks again.
Hoffman: We pushed the issue for the Octoberfest and we thought we had a
good location. We hoped for a favorable wind. A few cars got slightly
damaged and we don't want to have to have that happen again. It doesn't
make us look very...
Hasek: What you're asking us then is to separate the events?
Hoffman: Yes.
Schroers: With all our ballfields, could we have it at Lake Ann and hire
traffic officers to direct people in and out?
Hoffman: They would certainly be there but still, it's just a problem.
Schroers: It's a problem but where have you gone to a major celebration
that it isn't a problem?
Sietsema: Exactly. That's very true.
Mady: You have only one. We only have one there. I really think this is
something that's got to be reviewed by the Public Safety Commission. This
~ is a serious public safety situation.
Schroers: ...police out there directing traffic, that we could pull it
off. I think it would be fine.
Hoffman: I guess the major question is, do we want to continue with the
street dance and the fireworks on the same evening or would it be more
beneficial to move the street dance to a Saturday evening? Do people cut
loose more on a Saturday evening rather than a Tuesday night?
Mady: You don't bring your kids with then.
Robinson: Also, you've got to go to work on Wednesday morning. I would
agree with the street dance on...
Hoffman: The weekend before?
Hasek: Even Monday night. Most people are going to be off on Monday.
Right?
Schroers: You'd probably have a better response to a street dance on
Saturday night.
Hoffman: And hold that in the City Center Park location.
Sietsema: You know an option in the future is going to Lake Susan because
~ you're going to have the Rosemount parking and the Opus parking and all
kinds of parking available along Lake Drive East.
Hasek: Just for fireworks and the dance?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 42
...",/
Sietsema: Yes.
Mady: Lake Ann actually would be, once Park Drive opens up...
Sietsema: We have electricity and probably have water at Lake Susan.
/
Anyway, that's another year.
Hoffman: Any ideas. Any brainstorming that the Commissioners have done
during the past years that they've seen in other community activities that
we could incorporate?
Robinson: I think you should be commended on what you've done here. Both
the 4th of July celebration and that Octoberfest. They were great. Well
attended and all kinds of positive.
Schroers: If you could do anything at all, get the entertainment for the
entire evening like the jugglers and the character people. Have them
there longer because there were still lines, there were still people
waiting when they closed up shop.
Hoffman: Yes, it's just costing us money.
Mady: I have a comment on the 4th of
10 cases of beer that were given out.
On giving out beer. As a city event,
that's a good deal. I have a problem
July. On
I have a
sponsored
with it.
the fishing contest. The
problem with that I guess~
event, I don't think
Robinson: What was that?
Mady: On the fishing contest. You got a 6 pack of beer wasn't it?
Hoffman: 12 pack or pop. The only reason we did that was because...
Sietsema: It was free.
Mady: I realize that but to me it just didn't look good for us. To use
pop is fine but I didn't like the idea of the City providing beer. I just
didn't like the idea. On the fishing contest, I think we recommended
displaying them and that was a great idea. We did it this year but expand
it maybe. If there's a way of having them all corne back in by a specified
time and maybe what you should do is put the impetus on them. Tell them,
okay check in time is 11:00. You're here. If you're not here, what you
got, don't count.
Hoffman: Yes. For the adults?
Mady: Yes.
Robinson: Do you anything on that? A motion?
--'
Siestema: No. We just wanted your input.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 43
,.....
Schroers: I say keep up the good job. Continue in the same direction.
Just more and more, bigger and better.
Hoffman: That's why we need your support because more and more, bigger
and better, it costs more money and we have to justify that in our budget.
UPDATE ON HIDDEN VALLEY TRAIL EASEMENT REALIGNMENT.
Sietsema: This alignment chaned very, very little and it just moved, if
you look on the little map, the original alignment, if you can see this
light line behind here. It was the bottom half of light line. It went
straight across. They wanted it to be moved, there were some people
within this development who wanted it moved as much south as possible so
they moved it just to the high water mark. As close to the high water
mark as possible but there were a few lots here that were not in favor of
signing off on the new easement because they were not informed that that
easement was back there when they purchased their lots so they're going
back to Rottlund Homes to sue them and if they signed off on it, that
would mean that they wanted it there and they didn't want to jeopardize
any suit that they may have in the future. So they wouldn't sign off on
it. Meanwhile, these other people, where it really affects them the most,
Lots 35 and 34 and 29, they were still concerned so we have it moved on
~. those and staying the same, as much as possible, on the people that
wouldn't sign off on it. If you could just make a motion that this is
okay, I will have it recorded.
Mady: So moved.
Hasek: Second.
Mady moved, Hasek seconded that the Park and Recreation Commi.ssion
recommend to approve the realignment of the Hidden Valley Trail easement
as presented by staff. All voted in favor and the moti.on carried.
Hasek: Just a side comment. I have a friend of mine who's had some
problems with Rottlund Homes. It's kind of a disclosure thing. It's like
they don't have all of the information for the people who buy their lots.
Now I don't know if that's necessarily a buyer beware deal or not but
maybe it's something that we should start to publish. Is there some way
that, if we have easements like this, that we can...
Mady: I think if you're buying a piece of property, you have a lawyer who
checks all this stuff out.
~
Sietsema: The only reason this came to light is the people that
instigated this happened to be Dave Huffman, the viking. His wife is an
Attorney and she searched the title and happened to come across the
easement or they wouldn't have known about it either. Then she was the
one that asked them to instigate that it be moved as much southerly as
possible. That's how it all came to be and I don't know why Rottlund, if
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 44
....,.,
it was, Rott1und claims that they didn't know when they purchased the
property from United Mortgage and somewhere it all fell through the
cracks.
Mady: Obviously somebody's attorney didn't do their job.
UPDATE ON 1989 ICE RINKS.
Hoffman: Additional ice rinks for 1989. You can just take a look if you
have your map or if you looked at that from last week. Where the existing
ice rinks are. Where the new proposed ones were for this year. The two
new rinks which were proposed were one for Meadow Green and one for South
Lotus Lake. The one at Meadow Green Park did go in. They created not an
overly large rink. A small rink. It's been well received. The only
comments that have been received is make it larger next year. The rink
at South Lotus did not go in because of, again the things that we
discussed.
Boyt: South Lotus on the lake?
Sietsema: We can't go on the lake. Our insurance will no longer cover
our equipment or our men once we go out onto open water. It would be nicp
because it would be nice to have a rink out at Lake Ann.
.....""
Robinson: Where were you thinking of at South Lotus Lake?
Hoffman: On the we1lhouse site. Right there on the grassy area as you
drive in.
Schroers: Can we take a calculated and educated risk as far as the
insurance is concerned? We have the same situation but in certain areas
we just use our own judgment and say okay, the ice is a foot and a half
thick, we can take our little sweeper out there and clear off an area and
let them skate on it. We're not going to...
Boyt: Gosh, Minneapolis does it all the time.
Sietsema: They're self insured.
Mady: They're self insured.
Sietsema: I don't know that our maintenance crews would do that knowing
that they're not insured. I wouldn't.
Mady: You have a problem. There's a real problem and the city could lose
everything it's got.
Hoffman: They'd certainly feel safe at times to do it but then again,
then we're sett'i ng the precedence and then we're getting hoards of phone .....",
calls when there's 4 inches of ice out there to get out there and clear ta
rink on their lake.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 45
,.....
Mady: In the spring, you still have people who want to skate.
Hoffman: A lot of people do that on their lake anyway at this point "so
maybe it's better to leave it up to the neighbors in the area to clear
their own rink.
ADMINSTRATIVE SECTION:
Mady: Was there anything need to be said on the Adminstrative Section? I
guess I had a question on the Carver Beach Road safety situation. What's
really going on? I kind of got confused there. It seems like Public
Safety is passing the buck between them and Gary Warren. I don't really
know what's going on but I know those people were real upset the last time
they were in here and if the situation isn't going to be properly
addressed, they're going to be even more mad.
.,.....
Sietsema: It is being addressed. Gary is in contact with MnDot as far as
what the requirements are and they're doing some traffic studies. In the
meantime, Jim Chaffee, the Public Safety Director, has done some speed
counts. And he came in one day after doing one and he said that they sat
out there for a considerable amount of time and no one was going faster
than 28 mph down that hill and the speed limit is 30.
Mady: The problem is, the residents perceive there's a problem there and
it gets back to the fact of trusting what the city officials are telling
you and they're not going to believe us.
.
Boyt: 28 looks faster...
Schroers: Also, I wonder if that didn't happen to be on a snowy day or an
icy day or something.
Sietsema: Right and they're going to do more. They're going to do more.
They're going to do them during rush hour times and they'll be doing more
speed studies as well.
Hoffman: Summer traffic is a lot faster than winter traffic.
Sietsema: So they'll be monitoring that more.
Schroers: I haven't heard anything from the neighborhood group. They were
suppose to be contacting the homeowners on the north side of the street.
Well, I gave them my consent here at the meeting so they probably just
took that for granted but I haven't heard that they have been actively
doing anything.
Sietsema: I talked to Jeff Bros last week and got him a number of sets of
~ plans so that he would have a plan to go and talk to those people.
Basically, what he indicated to me is that if the trail will not justify a
stop sign, then they want it on the south side. They don't want to cross
there. But if that's the only way that they can justify having a stop
sign, then they want it and I think that's an inappropriate use of our
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 46
.....".
trail system. Is to have it cross at an inappropriate spot just to
justify a stop sign. Engineering is having a real problem supporting a
stop sign on a through street to control speed because then you have the
situation where people are rolling and going and gunning it to make up for
the time that they had to slow down. And they're not looking closely and
there's more traffic hazards in that situation than there is if there
isn't a stop sign at all. So between engineering and public safety,
they're looking at what speeds are out there. They may be able to come up
with something that would lower the speed limit and then with more
enforcement. I think the enforcement is really the key. You set somebody
out there that's going to tag people that are going to too fast and they
do that, let the people in the area know what. Some of them don't know
what the speed limit is.
Hasek: The whole point is, the people out there are the ones that are
speeding. It's a neighborhood. It's not a big shortcut to anywhere so
it's the people who live out there that are actually causing the problem
which is the way that it goes everyplace. Our neighborhood is the same
way. Minnewashta Parkway. You tag people out there, you're going to be
tagging me too.
Schroers: The problem isn't inherent in Carver Beach because where the
traffic is coming from is the oldest neighborhood in the city and they
were used to screaming down that road when there was nothing there but
cornfields. So they're doing it because they've always done it.
...."",
Sietsema: But again, enforcement and I just again talked to Jim last week
and he's highlighted that area as a spot for the squad to pay particular
attention to. We have 24 hour coverage now so there will, hopefully there
will be more ticketing in that area unless they're not really speeding.
Again, coming down a hill when there's a little kid sitting there, 30
looks a lot faster than it actually is.
Mady: I want to make a recommendation, a motion asking the Public Safety
Commission to hold a public hearing with these residents to inform them of
what's going on and what the criteria and the reasoning is behind this so
they have that because they're going to be coming back.
Sietsema: Our item with the trail is going to be coming back the first
meeting in February and I've asked Jim and Engineering to both be here at
that meeting.
Mady: I don't think that's the appropriate time though. Then they're
here yelling and screaming at us and we're not the people who do that.
Public Safety's got to get involved in this situation. They have yet to
get involved in it. We've been talking about it and we need those people
to be there and informing them of what the thing is. I don't want them
people coming in, well we want a stop sign. We can't do anything about a
stop sign. We need Dick Wing and his people to talk to these people and
be talking to the residents. -'
Robinson: Then they've got to come out again. They're going to be here
the first week in February.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 47
"
Mady: But we can't do anything for them.
Robinson: Can't they talk at this meeting? Isn't that what you're
saying?
Mady: But the Public Safety Commission won't be here.
Sietsema: Well Jim will be here and he would be able to answer their
questions.
Mady: Yes, but I want to see the Public Safety Commission get involved
with the public on this sitation because they've been here twice now
complaining about it.
Sietsema: Right, but they have said that they've done things that they
have not done. They said that they got a petition to Jim and they never,
they said they were going to and it never appeared on his desk. He can't
take a petition that doesn't exist to his Public Safety Commission. So
far they've said that they've contacted people and Public Safety has every
call that they ever get, they document it and they act on it and they
write three letters in triplicate. So Public Safety has not dropped the
ball. They've sent this on, whatever they've gotten. He says he's gotten
~ two calls. One is to request a stop sign and he referred it to
engineering because it's their department. And the other is, that they
were getting a petition about to put a stop sign up. He said, get me the
petition and I'll put it on the agenda. He's never gotten it.
Hasek: The question is, they're coming back to us because we had deferred
it?
Sietsema: Back to the residents to see if they could get the easements on
the north side of the street.
Mady: I'd still like to see the Public Safety Commission at least
document it. We've documented our meetings, the public safety situation.
I don't think it takes a petition to public safety. I think the Public
Safety Commission should be able to get a recommendation from us, seeing
our notes that says there's a problem that they've got to deal with. We
shouldn't have to deal with it a third time again. We have no ability to
deal with it.
"
Hasek: And I don't think that we should have to deal with it. I think
that we've got staff on board. If our staff is telling us that the design
is the best that it can be based on sight lines and everything else, I'm
not an expert and I deal with this stuff everyday and I defer my knowledge
to someone else because I don't understand all of it. How in the world
can a resident out there pretend to know more simply because it's in their
front yard? They have an opinion but I think we have to rely on our
experts who tell us, just like we're expected, the Council relies on some
of the things that we say.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 48
..."""
Sietsema: Exactly. That's what we pay Mark and Scott from Van Doren,
Hazard, Stallings to do.
Hasek: My understanding was all that we did was ask them to take a look
at redesigning if it would work and I expected them to come back and tell
us yes, it can work this way or this way or no, this is the only way.
This is the best way.
Sietsema: The only reason it's coming back is because the neighborhood
wanted the opportunity to go to the Homeowners on the north side of the
road to see if they would give the easements so they could take it across
the street at that point. The additional easements.
Mady: Okay, I made a motion to ask Public Safety. Was there a second on
it? If not, we'll go on.
Sietsema: I will indicate to Jim your concerns and we'll forward our
Minutes of that meeting to him as well.
Hasek: I think the same thing happened or is going to happen, someone
with a speeding problem maybe or at least there's one addressed on Carver
Beach Road. Is that the one?
Mady: Carver Beach Road's got one. Minnewashta Parkway's got one.
Laredo's got one. Frontier Trail's got one. West 78th. Every main
street in town's got a speeding problem.
....""
Hasek: Not only that but there's one outside of Greenwood Shores Park
there on that curve.
Sietsema: utica Lane.
Hasek: Part of that should have gone through to engineering and public
safety too because those people were basically unaware of the issue and
there's no reason. Why were we fielding questions on road design out
there. It's not our job. I have a quick comment here. Back to this ice
skating. Were we going to grade that out?
Hoffman: This coming summer, yes.
Hasek: Okay. Can I suggest that that be graded at least 60 feet by 120
feet flat?
Hoffman: Yes.
Hasek: Lying to north and south? It's about the size of a tennis court.
Sietsema: Well, we're putting in a tennis court.
......,
Robinson: Can you give me an update on this zamboni Todd?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 49
""....
Hoffman: Yes. The zamboni was overhauled this summer. They discovered
some maintenance updating that needed to be occuring on the machine. The
drive belt which picks up the snow and scoops it up into the top bin, was
wore down to a point that they needed to replace that. That was
approximately a $750.00 expense I believe. So by the end of the summer
they dumped about another $1,000.00 into that machine getting it into
workable condition. Then again, right at the beginning of the season they
had some additional mechanical failures with the front end, the brakes
locking up so they worked on it another day right at the beginning of the
season. Since then it's operated fine. The people down there that use
the rink, they love the ice. The word is getting around to other
communities that this little ice barn in Chanhassen has got some of the
best ice around for $30.00 an hour and I get a call about every other day
to book another hour of ice.
Mady: I thought we raised the price on that?
Hoffman: Yes, from $25.00 to $30.00 this year.
Robinson: My kids have gone down there at 7:00 and there were no lights
on the door. It wasn't locked. They threw the deadbolt open and skated.
It wasn't locked...
~ (There was a tape change at this point and the discussion changed to the
Carrico property. )
Sietsema: ...1 don't know what their problem is. They're proceeding with
having it subdivided or getting subdivisional approval. It was tabled at
the Planning Commission due to, the Planning Commission has some problems
with it being approved and having the MUSA line changed for this site. In
the meantime, staff has looked at the property more closely and are
questioning whether it's going to meet our park needs as far as the
topography and the soils and the wetland that's on there. Carrico's had
indicated to me that that was not a bonafide wetland and that a ballfield
could go on there and there would be no problem. That it would be mowed.
That's not the case. It's a Class B wetland and there's cattails and
there's wetland vegetation in there. It's not useable for a ballfield and
we'd have to stay 75 feet back from it and that means the rest of it, the
dry part of it is on a slope. So I've got Mark looking at it to see if
there's any kind of grading or what we can do, what type of uses we could
have for it and if indeed that is a piece of property we want to continue
to pursue. Also, at the same time, Mark and I are looking at the
property, the rest of the property in the area and trying to identify
something that may be more suitable.
Boyt:
east.
There's a nice looking piece across the street, a little further
The road is cutting it up.
Sietsema: To the east or the west?
"""
Boyt: West.
Sietsema: That's two lots of the highland.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 50
-'
Boyt: It's real flat.
Sietsema: And there's some wetland up over to the one side. I think
we're going to be looking at that. That's actually two different lots of
the Lake Lucy Highlands. It may not be something that we want to pursue
for parkland.
Mady: My concern was that I had seen the Planning Commission agenda in
the paper and they were on it. The last I had heard, we were looking at
the whole parcel. I was hoping the Planning Commission was aware that we
were looking at it.
Sietsema: And they are.
Mady: On the vending machine thing.
Hoffman: Which was not on the agenda. What it says, last year we had a
vending service that put two machines in there. They generated a lot of
income. About $800.00 in gross sales. $700.00 or $800.00. Something
like that. We've had a lot of requests for them. To bring them back this
year. I started early on this. They weren't interested in bringing them
back because of the short season. I contacted Mr. Ryan King and he just
did not, wasn't very prompt in getting a letter back so it's ran this
late. We could purchase some of those machines for $1,350.00. purchase-'
the candy and a pop michine for that building to have that service there.
Practically anybody you talk to that is up there, has requested it. You
get hounded every time you want in the door by parents and kids alike. Is
this something that we would like to provide at the warming house or is it
not? I would need a recommendation.
Mady: If we had it at a place that we used it in the summer, it would
probably work.
Hoffman: We could possibly open up the building during the summer for
the. . .
Boyt: T-ball and soccer.
Mady: Especially the pop machine being out there. A pop machine.
They've got them at every gas station in town. You can buy pop outside
when the stations are closed.
Robinson: I don't think they'd take them there.
Hoffman: Parks for some reason are high vandal for vending machines.
Schroers: The money doesn't seem to be the problem. It pays for itself
in two years, but what about the maintenance on the machine and who's
going to collect the money and all that sort of thing?
-'
Hoffman: That's something I did talk with Dale about and they'd take that
over as general maintenance of the rink. They'd carry that stuff around.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 51
~
Robinson: Aren't we then competing with Kenny's and everybody else who
sells pop and candy?
Mady: But we're so far away from them.
Hoffman: They all go to Brookes now.
Robinson: I don't think we should be in that. That's not part of the
recreation in my opinion.
Hoffman: Concessions is a large part of recreation in a lot of park
facilities.
Mady: The other comments, I guess before we adjounr, on the community
center proposal, I want to be put on the agenda next time. We updated the
Council last night and we wanted...
Sietsema: Right now I have about 19 items on the next agenda.
Boyt: Ours?
Sietsema: Yes. Big ones.
~ Mady: It's a 10 minute deal so maybe we can even do it when we do the
interview candidates.
Sietsema: I don't think you got what you wanted.
Robinson: No, we've got to get back to pop machines.
Sietsema: Do you want to buy them or not?
Hasek: What are the alternate ways of providing that service? Are there
any?
Boyt: They can go to Brookes.
Hasek: How far is Brookes?
Boyt: Quarter of a mile.
Mady: About a block and a half. I guess for this year, I would move for
this year that we do nothing because it's just going to take too long to
get this all done. The season will be over. Let's review this at another
time when we can think it through and plan for it.
Hasek: Yes, towards the end of the summer maybe before the season starts.
~ Robinson: Look for another vendor. Gee, some of these people have got
those machines.
Hoffman: I've talked with probably 6 or 7 vending companies. First of
all, it's such a short season and most don't like to deal with park
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 52
...."""
situations because they are such high vandalism. They don't end up making
any money.
Mady: Why don't you check with other locales and see if they've got them.
If somebody's willing to do it. Let's take a look at it in the future.
Hasek: I don't mind shipping them in there but the vandalism issue scares
me a little bit. Personally, I myself used to beat the heck out of those
machines when I was a kid when they were unattended.
Sietsema: But for the winter programs we do have rink attendants and
warming house attendants in those facilities so I wouldn't be worried
about it then. If you're going to put them outside in the summer, is when
I'd worry about it.
Robinson: If it's too short of a season for a regular vendor, it should
be too short of a season for us.
Hoffman: It's a long term. They grossed $800.00, something like that
last year meaning you'd net revenue for $400.00 in a couple years. It's
just something, it's a fairly low budget item. Practically everybody you
talk to requests them so can we give it to them or do you think it's a
hassle?
Schroers: The only problem I would have with it is putting the
responsibility on maintenance. The park maintenance staff is short and
overtaxed as it is and this is just one more thing that they have to deal
with. Granted, it may be not a lot of extra work but it always works out
that when they're the busiest and they've got something to do, then
there's somebody pulling it out of their... It's at the most
inconvenience time that these little problems tend to arise. If there's
another way to deal with it rather than making it the responsibility of
maintenance, that'd be worth looking at.
~
Hasek: When you talk to these people, do they understand what the life of
the season is?
Hoffman: They don't want to put their machines in and let them sit there
when nobody even has access to the thing.
Sietsema: So you don't want us to go ahead with anything this year. You
want us to bring it up at budget time?
Mady: So moved.
Hasek: Second.
Mady moved, Hasek seconded not to anything on the vending machines at the
city parks and to take it up at budget time next year. All voted in favd,-,
and the motion carried.
~
I'"
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
January 10, 1989 - Page 53
Robinson moved, Schroers seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in
favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Lori Sietsema
Park and Rec Coordinator
Prepared by Nann Opheim