PRC 1989 03 28
CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION
~EGULAR MEETING
.ARCH 28, 1989
Chairman Mady called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m..
MEMBERS PRESENT: Sue Boyt, Curt RObinson, Jim Mady, Dawne Erhart, Larry
Schroers and Ed Hasek
STAFF PRESENT: Lori Sietsema, Park and Rec Coordinator and Todd Hoffman,
Recreation Supervisor
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Schroers moved, Robinson seconded to approve the
Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated March 21, 1989
as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
PRESENTATION OF EAGLE SCOUT PROJECT PROPOSAL, SCOTT DUMMER.
Sietsema: Scott Dummer is here to present his Eagle Scout project and I
think I'll let him just go right into it.
.
Scott Dummer: My name is Scott Dummer and I'm from Chanhassen Boy Scout
Troop 330 and I'm working on my Eagle Scout project and I need your
approval so I can go onto City Council. What I have been working on with
""",ori and Mr. Gregory, maintenance equipment bridge. It's a 24 foot
~ridge. Three equal sections. 6 feet wide. The middle section centered
over a 4 foot channel and a foot off the ground will be able to hold a
minimum of 1,000 pounds. Consist of 8 support posts. Two each on both
sides. A channel with a dirt ramp on each end and this will be located in
the southwest corner of Chanhassen Pond Park. It's on the east side of
Kerber Blvd.. The benefits from it will be that hikers can get...through
the marsh anymore and it will benefit the City because maintenance staff
will be able to cross easier across the bridge and mow both sides of the
pond quicker. Otherwise they're going to have to go back and swing back
and go on the other side. The building materials, I've got all the
...costs on it, an estimation of $1,750.00 plus or minus $200.00. Right
now I've priced out all the lumber and metal hardware use for it so it
will corne to about $525.00 plus delivery which is $24.00 but I still have
to price out the cost of what a cubic yard of concrete plus delivery and
maybe any other tools that I might need to rent like a power generator to
bring down there and stuff but it might be underneath that. That's why my
price is different with that margin of error. That's it.
Schroers: When do you plan to get started on this Scott?
Scott Dummer: As soon as I get it approved from the City Council and
I plan on working on it as soon as the ground, the frost is out so you can
dig.
~oyt: Do you know approximately how long the project will take?
Scott Dummer: 11m planning on getting it done in two weekends. I'm going
to be digging the holes and pouring the concrete I think the first weekend
and then the next weekend I can get the assembly and the building done.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 29, 1989 - Page 2
.....".
It will be done before school is out which is before June.
Mady: Do you have any idea how high the bridge is actually going to be
raised above the ground level?
Scott Dummer: It's 1 foot and it's back down to the pond by, Dale and I
figure it's about l~ feet back from the original water line right now so
if it does flood, there won't be any problem.
Mady: Do you have any idea how long you're going to extend the ramps?
It's fairly marshy down there?
Scott Dummer: It's actually, that part what we're doing is it's fairly
marshy but it's got black dirt on it. It doesn't really say on our
blueprint but I figure about 3 or 4 feet.
Sietsema: What is needed here is an approval of the project and also a
recommendation to do a budget adjustment. If you'd like, I can go over
how we would accomplish that. As you recall, when we were talking about
adjusting the budget, we talked about the Bluff Creek access road which we
have $1~,~0~.0~ in the budget. At the time that that was put into the
budget, we were anticipating that the trail plan funding would go through
on the referenedum. Since it did not go through, it would be premature
~o put an access road in at this point in time at that location and I
~ould suggest that we recommend that we transfer some of that money into ~
an Eagle Scout project or take that out of the budget all together and
allocate $2,~~~.~~ of that money to the Eagle Scout project. So again,
what is needed is for Scott to proceed is a recommendation to approve the
project and to adjust the budget.
Schroers: I'll make that recommendation to approve Scott's plan and
recommend that it goes onto the City Council and amending the budget. To
allocate the funds, transfer them to where they can be used for Scott's
project.
Mady: Do you need that in two separate motions Lori?
Sietsema: No. If it's alright with you I'd like to word it, to allocate
$2,~~~.~0 of the $1~,0~~.~~ for the Bluff Creek Access Road to this
project.
Mady: I'll second it.
Schroers moved, Mady seconded to approve the Eagle Scout project as
presented by Scott Dummer and recommend that i~ go onto the City Council.
Also, to allocate $2,~~~.00 of the $1~,~~~.0~ for the Bluff Creek Access
Road to this Eagle Scout project. All voted in favor and the motion
carried.
......"
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 29, 1989 - Page 3
iI"'"
PUBLIC HEARING: LAKE SUSAN PARK DEVELOPMENT PLAN AND BOAT ACCESS.
Public Present:
Name
Address
Ed Weidmer
Ronald & Cindi Tann
Walter E. & Marian Paulson
Waynette Meier
Al & Mary Klingelhutz
7031 Redwing Lane
8300 West Lake Court
8528 Great Plains Blvd.
8524 Great Plains Blvd.
8600 Great Plains Blvd.
Sietsema: The Lake Susan Park plan is being presented tonight to the
residents to get their input to see if they have any problems with the
plan which is being done as part of the LAWCON grant process. I don't
know if you are aware, we received preliminary approval for a LAWCON grant
which is actually a State bonded grant to develop a Lake Susan Park and
boat access which is located on the northwest side of Lake Susan where the
park shelter is right now. The overall project is $220,000.00 project of
which the State bond grant will cover 50% so it's $110,000.00 grant. The
plan includes, once the Lake Drive goes in all the way to Powers Blvd.,
we'll be getting access off of that road similar to where we come around
~rom the railroad tracks and come donw into the park now. This area right
.ere is the existing park shelter with the existing parking lot here. So
coming in here there would be another parking area with 2 tennis courts
and full sized ballfield, a basketball court and an area for a skating
rink. The volleyball would stay where it currently is. As you travel
further down there would be a turn around for a boat access just to the
east of that stand of trees that's down there. If you look down from the
park shelter right over here is a stand of trees, it would be to the east
of that so it wouldn't be in the direct line of view from the park
shelter. There are 2 handicap parking spaces down here. They would come
back up and park up here and walk down. That keeps the bulk of the
parking away from the lake minimizing the runoff and that kind of thing
that goes directly into the lake. The other thing that the major part of
the project is the trail system. It comes in along the access road into
the park shelter and down and it goes around, this is the north side of
the lake. This is the west side of the lake, so it would be along the
full north and west side of the lake coming out in Lake Susan Hills West
to their subdivision. At a future time that would come down further and
go out between Lake Susan West and Chanhassen Hills and down to Lyman
Blvd., if you can get all of those developments straight. That's it in a
nutshell. The boat access is here and there would be a fishing pier down
at this area where the creek currently comes out into the lake. We're
talking about possibly doing some dredging there so that would be a good
fishing area. And with that I will entertain any questions that you have.
~l Klingelhutz: First question, how many boat trailer spaces are you
oing to have for the lake?
Sietsema: Fi ve car-tra i ler spaces is wha t 's requi red. It's a 100 acre
lake.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 29, 1989 - Page 4
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Al Klingelhutz: That includes the 2 handicap?
Sietsema: I,don't think so. I think the handicap is in addition to that.
Al Klingelhutz: Now it's 1 space for each 20 acres of lake?
Sietsema: Right and it's 98 acres so it's 100 acres. We're required to
have 5 and they want handicap available as well so we've got 7 total. 5
up here and 2 down here.
Schroers: Are we limiting horsepower on the lake?
Sietsema: No. This is a full trailerable access.
Resident: Is it going to be cemented?
Sietsema: It will be a concrete slab that goes in...that DNR specs out
and when it's available.
Boyt: Similiar to Lake Ann?
Sietsema: Right and similar to what's at Lotus Lake as well.
Al Klingelhutz: Is that going to be a pond, that circle?
-'
Sietsema: Yes, this is a future ponding area and I really don't know if
that's what it's going to look like or not. I don't think that that's all
been determined. That's part of the street improvement so that the runoff
that does come down from this area will settle out in this pond before
hitting the lake.
Al Klingelhutz: Part of Rosemount Engineering's water going to come into
that pond?
Sietsema: I don't know that Al.
Robinson: Where is the Rosemount building on the property?
Sietsema: Rosemount would be, this is their property over here and
they're about over here somewhere.
Hasek: I would have to believe that Rosemount is probably required to
pond their own storm drainage.
Sietsema: I wouldn't even venture a guess. I wouldn't want to stick my
neck out to tell you one way or the other because I honestly don't know.
Mady: One thing I want to hear from the residents, something we did
'ith Lotus Lake, with the boat access there, to attempt to minimize the ~
dmount of traffic that comes into the park is to make it illegal to park
boat trailers on the street and in nearby streets so you are really
restricting the access to basically 5, probably 5 trailer boats so we can
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 29, 1989 - Page 5
,....
minimize the effects on the lake as much as possible. I want to see what
the residents here have any ideas, any thoughts on that because currently
there's no restriction in the City unless we do like we did at the Lotus
Lake area.
Al Klingelhutz: Personally I think 5 boats with any amount of horsepower
on that lake plus the boats that are owned by the residents are more than
sufficient.
Resident: If you see more than 2 boats out there that are potentially
skiing or more than 40 or 50 horse, and it's dangerous out there. I guess
my concern is how do you go about policing that? Does it police itself
because they limit the number of boats or what the number of potential
boats on the lake?
Sietsema: We've had that question in other instances and what the DNR's
response is that it does have a tendency to police itself because the more
boats there are, the more people watch out more. People limit their
activity if there's a lot of traffic on the lake so it doesn't, the
statistics are that with increased traffic on the lake, it does not
statisically show that there's increase of accidents. That's the response
I've gotten from DNR.
~chroers: Also, if there is a particular problem, the water patrol can be
.loti f ied and they wi 11 come out and pa trol the lake.
Sietsema: Yes, they have done that at Lotus and we have public safety
working on working with the Carver County Sheriff Department to upgrade
the amoung of water patrol we have in the City of Chanhassen now that we
do have more public accesses on our lakes.
Resident: A question I have. The trail system I think is fine. I think
those of us on the lake along with the others are certainly going to be
using that. That area right now is prone to beer parties. In fact
walking along the north side of this lake several weeks ago, there must
have been 50 cans and bottles thrown on the lake. What kind of clean up,
what kind of responsibility is the City going to have to make sure that if
there are parties over there or if there are other activities that create
a mess, trash, litter, that will be cleaned up?
Sietsema: I think that it's going to be more easily pOliced with an open
park. Once it's open to the public all the time. The Sheriff's
department will be able to drive through into the park without getting out
and opening the chain and going along the little road. Also there will be
other people in the park which tends to limit the amount of beer parties
and that kind of thing. Also, the park maintenance crews will be at that
park site more often as well.
~esident: I'm not talking specifically the park. It's the trail system I
uess that I'm more concerned about because that's where the activity
seems to be occurring at this point.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 29, 1989 - Page 6
....",
sietsema: Also, right above this area is where Rosemount is going to be
and if their development comes in, I would imagine that there would be
more policing. But the trail system is part of the park system so our
park maintenance crew will be policing litter and that kind of thing once
that develops.
Al Klingelhutz: I think I'd have to agree last winter before the snow got
very deep, they were coming off of TH 101, the cars were and driving up
that area where the shoreline went in and I think that's where the biggest
problem was as far as beer cans and parties. They weren't coming in
through the park so if there could be something put by TH 101 that cars
couldn't come up that trail easement there, I think it would benefit an
awful lot.
Sietsema: I think that's a good idea. I don't see any problem with doing
that. I don't think that would be a problem to put up some bollards or
something in that area so that would...
Resident: Yes, I think that's good. I think my concern is that there's
enough city staff so if there is a litter problem that it's cleaned up
before it gets into the lake. I took a half hour to throw the cans and
the beer bottles and whatever at least back up on the land so that it
wouldn't be floating around on the lake this spring but I didn't have
~nything to carry it beyond that, if they're still there. If that is a
~roblem, if people aren't going to use it, they're finding beer cans and
bottles and whatever thrown out in that area.
...""
Sietsema: Again, once the park is open and the trail system is in, I
believe that our park maintenance crew will be spending more time in that
area and policing it for litter and maintenance problems and that kind of
thing.
Schroers:
additional
particular
that would
litter and
We have addressed that issue on the Commission and asked for an
seasonal person and a vehicle of the type that would serve that
purpose. I don't know exactly where we're at with that. If
come on line this year or not but we are concenred about the
would certainly want to keep it cleaned up.
Hasek: It's also nice to hear that some of the neighbors are doing that.
I live out on the other side of Lake Minnewashta and it's our
neighborhood's responsibility every year to clean up from our Linden
Circle all the way out to TH 7 in both directions where the snowmobile
trail is. We've just kind of taken the responsibility for doing that
every year...picking up cans of pop.
Resident: Is there any discussion on limiting motors on lakes in
Chanhassen? Again, I'm concerned about this being a small lake and the
potential for the impact on the lake which a number of the large motor
boats or whatever on the lake. Is there or has there been any discussion?
dietsema: On this lake no there hasn't because what would happen is if we
limit the boat size, the boat motor size, we have to limit, the residents
have to be limited to that size motor as well. We can't limit just the
-'
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 29, 1989 - Page 7
"""'"
public access users as far as motor size. That's a State law. We have no
way of doing that and we have to comply with what DNR regulations are for
this boat access to qualify as an adequate public access for the chain of
lakes clean up project. And I don't know if you are all aware of that but
that's one of the reasons why this became a priority for the City is that
this watershed district, in conjunction with Eden prairie and the City of
Chanhassen became eligible for a million dollar grant from the EPA, PCA
and DNR for Lake Riley Chain of Lakes clean up project which involves Lake
Lucy, Lake Ann, Lake Susan and Lake Riley. But the stipulation is that
you have to have public access on each of the lakes so we needed access on
Lake Susan and we're still working on Lake Lucy so that we will continue
to be qualified for that funding.
Resident: How long do you have to have the accesses put in before...
Sietsema: We gave them a time line that they were agreeable to and we
told them that we had the funding in line for this, for LAWCON and that
this could be done in 1989 and that we would apply for LAWCON grants for
the Lake Lucy access in 1989 for 1990 construction. So our time line is
that we are supposed to have both accesses in and completed and in use by
1991.
Resident: Has the Park Commission given any consideration for all the
~3kes in Chanhassen? Has the City...opening up for access to the milfoil
~roblem? Susan is 20 feet deep. We have that problem with the lake and
we have no lake anymore. Are there any plans in the works that deal with
that issue?
Sietsema: There is a plan that the weed inspector is working with Steve
Decater who's a resident on Lotus Lake who's very active in coming up with
a plan that he's going to be presenting to the City and having money
available to eradicate the weed if it's spotted and to get volunteers that
live around the lakes and use the lakes to go out periodically and check
for the weed because if you find it in a small patch, you can take care of
it and get rid of it right away but if it's too big of an amount, it takes
too much of a hold, then you've got to live with it and all you can do is
harvest it. So what Steve is proposing is a plan that would get the
lakeshore homeowners active in keeping an eye out for the weed. And the
City would be involved in that in watching for it on our own property as
well.
Resident: I guess I would be more comfortable if that plan would be in
place before we open up Lake Susan and other lakes for boat access. I
guess I'd like to see those go hand in hand.
Sietsema: The plan that he's proposing, he wants to be able to take to
the City Council before the ice is off the lakes this year so I would
imag i ne tha t . . .
"""'"
esident: Does the City have money available to help eradicate the weed
If it's found?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 29, 1989 - Page 8
....."
Sietsema: I am not familiar with the details of how much money they're
looking for or where it's going to come from because the weed inspector's
been more closely involved with that. I can't tell you for sure that
there's going to be money in 1989 available because our budget is already
set for 1989 and it would take a budget adjustment and I'm sure what fund
that would come out of so I'm not sure but I do know that the City Council
is aware of it and concerned about it and eager to take some action to
have something in place to be able to control it. I've heard that from
them on a couple of occasions.
Al Klingelhutz: Would it be appropriate to have in that ordinance some
sort of a control of any boats being transferred from one lake to another,
that they have to be manually inspected as far as carrying any weeds on
the propeller and anchors and things?
Sietsema:
accesses.
Well part of the plan is to have signs up in all the public
I don't know if they're considering an ordinance or not.
Al Klingelhutz: It just seems to me if there's an ordinance in effect
stating that that wouldn't be allowed, even if it would be hard to check
on it on every single boat that comes in, that it would alert the people
to the fact that you can't do this. That if you're caught, there's a
fine.
Jchroers: Do you think that the City can adopt an ordinance like that or .....,..,
would that have to come from the State?
Al Klingelhutz: I think the City could do it to protect their lakes.
Boyt: I think they tried to do that at one of our neighboring cities.
Was trying to close all their lake accesses this year.
Schroers: We could probably make a recommendation to Council to check in
to see, ask them the feasibility of that.
Resident: My concern is that again there would be some policy in place
before we move too far along with these types of projects. I guess I'm
concerned not just with Lake Susan but the other lakes in Chanhassen
because once it gets in one lake, the potential to spread it is a lot
greater. I guess it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to be opening up a
boat access without giving people consideration and consideration at the
same time to deal with that problem because if that gets into Lake Susan,
nobody's going to want to put their boat in there anyway.
Sietsema: Again, the plan is for the Eurasian Water Milfoil plan to go to
the City Council before the ice goes off and I.'m hearing what you're
saying.
Resident: It sounds like there should be more coordination between the
'eed inspector and the parks commission because I think it's a problem ~
chat certainly goes in both courts.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 29, 1989 - Page 9
,.....
Robinson: What would be the earliest possible time, if everything went
smoothly, that this access would go in?
Sietsema: It would be very optimistic to say that it would open in 1989.
I think that it will be constructed in 1989 and not open until like the
spring of 1990 because we haven't gotten final approval on the grant. We
have to have an archeological survey done on the property. Then that has
to go down to the National Park Service for approval for the whole grant
process. Then we have to have the plans and specifications done and bids
and go through that and all those have to be approved by Council along the
way so it's every two weeks before you can get. I don't see us breaking
ground until mid-summer and we will be trying to coordinate a lot of the
work with the road construction and they're planning to do that in July,
as I recall.
Al Klingelhutz: I talked to Don yesterday on Lake Drive there and he
didn't think that would be complete, he said we'd be lucky to have it
completed by the 1st of October and it was more than likely it would be
the first of November.
Sietsema: Right, but they're going to be working on it so that when they
do the grading along here, they can do some grading...
~l Klingelhutz: But they won't be allowing any boats to corne in to the
J.ake this year?
Sietsema: No, I don't see this being open for boat access in 1989 at all.
Al Klingelhutz: I guess there's another thing I have to bring up. I
brought it up before last year's City Council and you probably noticed it
there yourself if you went out on the beach. The peninsula of black dirt
that's forming in front of the creek and encroaching on the dock. The
first thaw we had this year, I walked over to the other side of the lake
and there was water coming in from someplace that looked worse than mud.
I think the people living on the lake were horrified that they could see
this black stuff on top of the ice over there. I think what happened is
when Rosemount Engineering did their grading, that they broke into a tile
up there someplace and water from that fresh pile of dirt... It threw the
tile down into that ditch on the north side of the park that flows into
the creek and comes out onto the lake.
Schroers: So you're getting siltation, is that what it is or black dirt?
Al Klingelhutz: There's a lot of siltation on top of the ice.
Sietsema: Well I will make a note of that to the City Engineer and alert
him to that.
~l Klingelhutz: Since I saw it, I've been more watchful as far as where
he siltation is corning from. Monday I drove down CR 17 over where Lake
Susan Hills has got that berm along the west side of the road. The day
before that was all filled with water and after we got that rain and it
goes through that berm and all the water just gushed right out of there.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 29, 1989 - Page 10
~'
That's another place I think we're getting a lot of siltation from.
sietsema: I'll make a note of that to the inspectors too and the City
Engineer...because we want to protect our lakes for sure.
Al Klingelhutz: I'm a little bit concerned that Rosemount Engineering is
going to put their ponding area. Empak, where it's going to be built
directly north of Lake Drive. Where is all that, the Empak water, it's
going to have to come through this area someplace?
Sietsema: I don't have the answers on anything about Rosemount's water. I
just don't know. I can ask the City Engineer to call you or get back to
you on that and answer some of those questions but I myself don't know.
Al Klingelhutz: I know we're suppose to be discussing the park but
there's no need to having a park if the lake is ruined.
Sietsema: That's right and that's why I will alert the engineer to what
your concerns are and if you'd like me to AI, I can have Gary call you
about that water runoff.
Al Klingelhutz: I did mention it to Gerhardt last night and he said he
was going to talk to him about it but I thought I should mention it to the
ryark board here.
"""'"
Resident: You've got barriers going across the creek instead of along the
creek over by the park, the barriers go across the creek.
(A tape change occurred at this point.)
Sietsema: I'll remind them to take a look at this.
Al Klingelhutz: Not only remind them Lori. We want some action on that.
We've been complaining about this for about a year now.
Sietsema: Okay, I will definitely alert him. Are there any other
comments or questions?
Resident: What is the timing on this? Can the people use the park when
it opens all night? All the time?
Sietsema: No. Once the park is open on a regular basis, it will be
opened at 7:00 in the morning and close at 10:00 at night is what the
hours will be. Possibly 6:00 in the morning. Is it 6:00?
Hoffman: 6:00 to 10:00.
Sietsema: The DNR requires that the boat access be open 16 hours a day
between 5:00 in the morning and midnight so we have to leave it open for a
~inimum amount of time for that boat access. So it would be 6:00 in the ~
~orning until 10:00.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 29, 1989 - Page 11
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Al Klingelhutz: Looking at that map, is that line just below the pond
area, is that where the creek is?
Sietsema: That's the interceptor.
Al Klingelhutz: I guess my recommendation is to make that pond as big as
possible because all of the industrial park comes down through there and
Rosemount Engineering is going to come through there. Empak is going to
come through there and it's going to take an awful big sediment pond to
take care of everything that's going to come through that area. I'm very
concerned about the oil from the parking lots all coming into the lake.
It's possible I think that some pond prior to it getting to the lake
should have a skimmer on it.
Sietsema: They were talking at one time about putting some apparatus in
this and I wasn't part of that conversation so I'm not sure of the details
but we have a lot of room here to make this pond bigger than what is shown
here because we're not planning to do anything as far as park facilities
down in this area because it's wet anyway. The most we would do is try
and mow it and make it look pretty. But I have a hunch that it's very
likely that that pond will expand and then it will be quite natur.al around
that area. Our focus is up, for park development is up in this area.
~l Klingelhutz: Would the creek run into the pond before it came into the
.ake?
Sietsema: Yes. I believe that is correct.
Resident: Is the park going to be open year round so if you're a winter.
fishermen or whatever, you can drive through there and get on in the
winter?
Sietsema: I don't think there's any regulations from DNR on that. That
would have to be something that Park and Rec and City Council would
decide. I know on Lotus Lake it is open.
Schroers: I think if it is declared a public access, it has to be open to
the public.
Sietsema: Yes, but I'm not aware of winter regulations as far as DNR is
concerned.
Resident: The question was more related to the City.
Sietsema: That is the case in other parts so it's likely that it hasn't
really been addressed so that could be something that got changed.
Al Klingelhutz: One full ballfield. Two tennis courts did you say?
~ietsema: Two tennis courts. A full sized ballfield with 330 foot fence
line. Parking lot. Basketball court. Area for a skating rink. The
volleyball court is already in. This parking lot is in and the shelter
there and well house and then the boat access and the fishing pier.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 29, 1989 - Page 12
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Al Klingelhutz: You've got a lot of trees around that lower part. I know
some of them are there already. What about the row of trees along the
highway there at Lake Drive? On both sides?
Sietsema: That's not a bad idea. There hasn't been a landscaping plan
done for this yet. I don't know if you noticed at Lake Ann we have a row
of trees around the ballfield and around parking lot screening those and
we would do more landscaping in the park area too. Your concern was
screening what's going to be across the road?
Al Klingelhutz: I know it's going to be there already. It's a pretty
good sized plant. In fact it looks like the first stages of it and I'm
not against the plant going in there...
Schroers: At our last meeting we did make a recommendation to the
~lanning Commission to consider a buffer area there.
....".,
Sietsema: On this side and we could include it again on this side too.
It'd be a pretty drive coming into the park.
Al Klingelhutz: Did Rosemount or somebody give a little more land on the
east end of the park? It looks like it's a little further than it used to
be.
Sietsema: Yes. This line used to come about here. There's 2 acres of a
thin sliver which enabled us to move this boat access over here so we
could leave this large stand of trees that's right here. Otherwise that
probably would have been where we would have had to go so with their
development, we required park dedication and an additional 2 acres to
accommodate that boat access. And we do plantings around in this area
too. If there's no other questions.
Mady: One thing I'd like to, since we have a nice group of neighbors
here who's interested in the park and live on the lake or near the lake,
make sure, do we have a sign-up sheet Lori?
Sietsema: Yes.
Mady: Because every time when we talk about developing this park, as the
grading plan comes in and you will probably find that it will come up on
:he agenda from time to time, we will be able to notify you as to that
meeting so if you think it's of interest to you, you can come in and let
us know your feelings one way or the other on it. It's always important
to get community information on items so we definitely encourage you to
....".,
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 29, 1989 - Page 13
"""'"
put your name and address down under the item you're interested in so you
can be notified about that when it comes up to us.
Sietsema: And for the public record too we would need your name and
address if you could sign it.
Schroers: I would like staff to update it as to the progress of what's
going on.
Mady: The one comment I guess I have on this item was the parking thing
on the streets. It seems to work on Lotus Lake and recognizing their
concern over the number of boats being on the lake, that might be a
beneficial thing to do in that area too. To restrict off street parking
for a boat trailer.
Sietsema: I would recommend that we do that in a reaction stage rather
than proactive because given the size of the lake, I just don't anticipate
that there's going to be the heavy use of it. If it turns out that there
is, I think that that would be the time to start putting the signs up to
prohibit the on street parking. That's just staff's feelings.
Mady: I guess my concern is to avoid the problem instead of waiting for
,.Jt to occur and then having to react to it. That action seems to have
~rked on Lotus Lake.
Boyt: It doesn't make us very popular when we do it the other way?
Siestema: The only concern is that it's not a friendly looking thing to
do for a park.
Boyt: No parking?
Sietsema: Yes.
Hasek: Except I think what we're talking about is not how many parking,
it's just parking boat trailers on the street so what we can do is
probably put a sign up that says no boat trailer parking.
Sietsema: Parking isn't our expertise.
Hasek: That's true except when it's related to a recreational use area.
Boyt: We can make a recommendation.
Mady: Council's the one who does that.
Hasek: I think waiting for something to break here before we fix it is
not the right approach. Planning is suppose to have foresight to try to
~.ake care of problems before they happen and I think that's an excellent
dea. If there's a way that it can be done, I'd certainly like to see it
done. Only for the boats though. Not for public parking.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 29, 1989 - Page 14
..-'
Sietsema: What I'll do is I'll ask engineering to review that and they
can address that. Is that what you'd like to do?
Mady: Okay. Any other comments?
Hasek: Is there a possibility that a second hill would be able to be
constructed between the pond and the existing ballfield or is that really
extremely crummy soil in there?
Siestema: No. It slopes. It's extreme slope and it's wet. When it gets
down there, it's wet. We looked at that and there's no way.
SITE PLAN REVIEW, COUNTRY SUITES.
Sietsema: I have a big plan here. If you're interested, I can put it up.
Mady: I wasn't real sure where the street was on this parcel.
Sietsema: Okay, if you look at it, turn the page so the reading is the
right direction. Across the top is West 78th Street and on what would be
the west side would be Market Blvd.. Then it's an 84 room hotel and then
you've got the existing buildings which would be where the old
lRA building. I'm sure you're familiar with that.
......,.~
Boyt: I don't know, is it planning that would recommend this but I'd like
to see some green in here somewhere.
Sietsema: This is not the landscape plan. This is just the site plan and
part of the, I believe there's a section in the ordinance that requires so
much green space or landscaping and that kind of thing and that is a
planning issue and they would address. That doesn't prohibit us from
recommending to the Planning Commission to double check it.
Mady: It's a good comment because when I look at this, it just appears
the whole front of the building on West 78th Street is parking lot and
since West 78th Street is our main street.
Boyt: And we need a trail on West 78th Street. It looks like there's
parking right out to the street.
Sietsema: We hav a sidewalk across the street.
Boyt: But I would think in our downtown area...
Sietsema: The trail plan for the downtown are~ has a sidewalk on the
north side of West 78th and then sidewalks along the buildings on the
south side. It doesn't go up along the street. For bike traffic, it goes
along the south side of the bowling center and then up that way.
rlasek: So then really only maybe our main concern is that there is a walk
connection along the bowling side between the existing building and the
new hotel?
-'
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 29, 1989 - Page 15
,...
Sietsema: It's all corridors.
Robinson moved, Hasek seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend that park and trail dedication fees be accepted in lieu of
parkland or trail construction. All voted in favor and the motion
carried.
APPOINT CONFERENCE ATTENDEES.
Sietsema: The 1989 Park and Recreation Commission budget allocates about
$500.00 for annual conference. That's enough for 2 Park and Recreation
Commissioners. It's travel and training. Two Park and Recreation
Commissioners to attend the spring conference. It's in Rochester this
year. I didn't know if you had received in your literature that you get
from MRPA but I've included the conference information and if anybody is
interested in attending, I need to know so I can get you registered. The
deadline is April 4th.
Schroers: What are the dates of the conference?
~oyt: The 19th, 20th and 21st.
Jchroers: I can probably attend but I went to the last one up in Brooklyn
Park and Brooklyn Center so if someone else wants the opportunity, I'd be
willing to let someone else do it.
Sietsema: There's also partial registrations too if you wanted to do a
daily registration and just go down for the day. They have it broken down
for that kind of thing too.
Schroers: Yes, I would think that I would like a chance to review the
curriculum and see if maybe just 1 or 2 of the days.
Sietsema: So your work would let you off for this activity?
Schroers: Yes. I can have all 3 days off.
Mady: Is anybody else interested?
Boyt: When's the deadline?
Sietsema: April 4th.
Boyt: You might want to wait until the 4th.
Sietsema: April 3rd.
,...
lOyt: Will you have appointed someone by the 4th?
Mayor Chmiel: We should.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 29, 1989 - Page 16
--'
Boyt:
person
Maybe we can give them an opportunity when we find out who that
is.
sietsema: Okay. That's a good idea. I need a motion then to approve
sending Larry.
Robinson moved, Hasek seconded. to approve sending Larry Schroers to the
annual MRPA conference in Rochester on April 19, 20 and 21. All voted in
favor and the motion carried.
INITIAL DISCUSSION OF 1990 BUDGET TO BE FINALIZED IN APRIL.
Sietsema: Last week we talked about some items that should be included in
the discussion of the 1990 capital improvement program budget. One of
them was the Minnewashta Parkway feasibility. I don't know which of these
you want to address first but I did get some information from some people
on doing feasibility and what the street improvement schedule is.
Hasek: Let's hear that. It's a high priority.
Sietsema: Okay. I talked to Gary and he indicated that in the 5 year
~lan for State Aid street improvements, that Minnewashta Parkway is
.scheduled for 1991. They would be doing feasibility studies for that in ...."
1990. If we were to put a trail along the full length of Minnewashta
Parkway, which is 8,100 feet, alone, without any street improvements, the
feasibility would cost roughly $7,500.00 and the trail section would cost
between $150,000.00 and $200,000.00.
Hasek: Depending on cost of installation.
Sietsema: Right. Doing it in conjunction with the street improvement
would significantly decrease that amount by as much as 50%. It's
difficult to say exactly how that all works out but Gary thought that 50%
was a good round figure. Therefore, it was my recommendation to budget
$5,000.00 to $7,500.00 as the trail portion of the feasibility study for
1990 to piggyback on the street improvement feasibility and then to
budget money for trail construction in 1991 to do the trail construction
with the street improvement.
Mady: That's fine because I know Ed and I talked to you earlier about
getting this going and it was my fear that we were going to have to pay
out $15,000.00 ourselves.
Sietsema: Well I was under the impression that they weren't going to
improve Minnewashta parkway anytime soon so when I double checked with
Gary, I was surprised that they were. We couldn't do this on our own any
sooner than this anyway. We'd do feasibility likely next year and trail
~onstruction in 1991 anyway. I just don't see how we could possibly do
anything sooner or all at one time. So this works out perfectly.
""""""
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 17
,.....
Hasek: What we can do prior to this, I think this is a good idea, is to
contact the neighbors out there and get some input from them. Some of the
abutting property owners. If they've got some problems. There's going to
be some headaches trying to get that trail stuck in there I know. I guess
rather than wait for this and take a chance that it misses the
construction period in 1991, at least get them on the record. I think
that would be useful for the engineers to have as well. It might tend to
adjust their figures for the feasibility.
Schroers: If we just remember back to our softball issue here just a few
weeks ago, if we could maybe conduct a public hearing first and get the
opinions of the residents and then try to formulate more cooperation.
Hasek: Just from experience listening to people talk out there, I think
the last time the trail issue went around, there are a lot of people that
are interested in a trail but there's a lot of misconceptions about how
high that trail ranked on the plans that we put together. There were a
number of people I know personally who voted against the referendum simply
because they felt a trail wasn't going to be built in the next 5 years,
even though they wanted a trail. They wanted it now. They didn't want it
in 5 years so they voted against the plan. I don't understand the logic.
Sietsema: Well that would speed it up.
,.....
.
.iasek: So I think there's a lot of interest out there and I think if we
did have a public hearing on this, you'd find that this place would be
full of people really interested and who would have some input on it.
Boyt: This might be a good evening to hold our meeting at the fire
station.
Sietsema: Up there, that's a good idea.
Hasek: Yes, if we backed the trucks out of there, that'd be great.
Schroers: Then you're looking for a recommendation only for...
Sietsema: Actually that can just be part of our discussion with the rest
of it then. That one I had the most details on and I knew that you were
interested in it specifically and I could get some specific information on
so I don't really need a motion. What this whole item number 7 and 7(a)
is to generate discussion on what you have in mind for budgeting in the
1990 Capital Improvement Program because we have to have our budget done
real early this year. Usually we start thinking about it in August and we
adopt it in October. Well we have to think about it now and have it ready
to go to Council by the first part of May so that means two meetings after
this.
~chroers: I would be definitely in favor of allocating those funds for
he feasibility study. I think that trail along, and road improvement too
out from our point of view, the trail along Minnewashta Parkway is
definitely a priority item. I would sure like to work towards making some
progress on that.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 18
--'
Robinson: Is that $500.00 worth?
Sietsema: I think that's a safe figure. Then on the rest of it, and
again this is more of a brain storming session. I came up with some other
things. In the 1989 budget we have the money to spend on master park
plans for Curry Farms, Chanhassen Hills and the first couple out10ts in
Lake Susan Hills West and I've got Mark working on those right now.
Hasek: Okay, what's that going to cost?
Mady: We're doing that now.
Sietsema: The master park plans are being worked on now and they're
usually about $1,000.00 to $1,500.00 just for the rough plan. So I was
thinking that possibly you want to spend some money on park development
then for those 3 parks. We do have a lot of homes already in the Curry
Farms development. Chanhassen Hills is on their third phase and they
approved the grading and that we'll do rough grading for that site so it
would be real timely to have the rough grading done and do the master plan
and do development. We've got a lot of people moving out there. The
homes are just springing up out in Lake Susan Hills West as well. I can't
really tell you what I think we should budget for these parks but just to
~eep in mind, we'll be coming back at the next meeting with Mark on master
park plans or some ideas on what to do. Once you figure out, get a more -'
clear cut idea of what you want on those parks, we can start putting
numbers together as far as how much money to put in the budget to actually
do the development.
Mady: On Curry Farms, that developer also was going to do rough grading
for us wasn't he?
Sietsema: I thought so but I looked in the development contract, on Curry
Farms?
Mady: Yes.
Sietsema: I've got them mixed up now. I thought that that was the
original agreement but I looked in the development contract and I believe
it was Curry Farms and it wasn't actually stated in there. I've got a
note down on my to do list to talk to Gary about that because I know I had
some people call me. They said there were cattails growing in the middle
of it and if that's the case, they definitely didn't do the grading that
I thought was going to be done.
Hasek: Especially if there were cattails last year.
Sietsema: Yes, that's what I thought.
10yt: Do we have funds from park development for Chan Pond Park in this
year's budget?
-'
Sietsema: Wood duck houses and benches.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 19
,....
Boyt: We need to add another phase for next year. Landscaping materials.
Sietsema: We also need to budget, if you want to put in a paved trail or
wahtever type of surface you want on that trail. It was the
recommendation of the City Council to have that a bituminous trail around
the pond. That was their recommendation back to us.
Hasek: Didn't, we had talked about rock?
Sietsema: The neighborhood was worried that there was going to be a lot
of dirt bike so we talked about putting limerock down but it was, I think
it was Bill who brought it up. He felt that the limerock wasn't going to
deter any bikes so they might as well pave it and then it's strollerable.
Mady: It's going to get a lot of use.
Boyt: Have we initiated our dog walking pooper scoopers because that's
going to be a dog walking area. Right now we don't allow dogs in the
park. I would like to see us allow dogs down there. We talked at one
time about on the leash with a pooper scooper.
~ady: Didn't we send recommendation to Council and I believe it passed.
Jchroers: We have talked about that before and I have some personal
experience with that. That is really a hard thing to police. That's just
something that, if we have to spend a lot of time and money ~o enact
something like that, it's really not worth it because you've basically got
to follow somebody around that's walking their dog. It's a hard thing to
enforce.
Sietsema: I think the key to doing an ordinance like that is education
and putting articles in the paper and sending out flyers to every
homeowner and really getting it publicized and making sure that people are
aware that it's a concern. But you're right, even though they're educated
and they know that they're supposed to have a baggy with them or whatever
they need to have, a scooper...
(A tape change occurred at this point.)
Schroers: ...area to walk in, it's not as comfortable for older people or
for handicap people to walk down on that natural turf but you can do some
surfacing and smoothing the surface out. It could probably still
accommodate older people and handicap people if i.t was a manicured turf.
Boyt: We did have a public hearing on this didn't we?
Mady: ...last year as long as we get a Bobcat down there or something
"""ust to level it because now it's really bad.
Schroers: Actually, it's probably going to take some equipment either
way. Probably what you want to do would be to go down there with a cat
and knock out high spots and fill in low spots and then take a disk or a
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 20
-'
drag and go around it and get it nice and smooth and then just seed it
after that and then you would have a nice, flat seeded turf area and the
only maintenance would be to keep it mowed and an area like that doesn't
really take a long time to mow because there are very few obstructions
provided the mowers can get over the bridges that are built there and the
bridges are 8 foot wide right?
Sietsema: 6.
Schroers: Depending on what type of mowers we have. I'm sure it wouldn't
be a problem to mow it. I'd recommend that versus putting a bituminous
trail. At least for the time being.
Hasek: I just to understand what the Council's concern was, was for like
motorbikes?
Sietsema: It was a concern here at the public hearing that we had here
that the people that lived, that are up along the ridge, don't want the
motorbikes and the dirt bikes and the 3 wheelers screaming around there
and it was Bill, and he made the motion I believe.
Hasek: This was the last Council meeting right?
Sietsema: No, when Chan Pond went to City Council and it was his
i:ecommendation back to Park and Rec to consider paving the trail because ....."
they didn't feel that anything was going to deter those uses.
Hasek: Anyway. .
Sietsema: Anyway. The surface wasn't going to, they were going to be out
there anyway regardless of what the surface of the trail was, those uses
were going to be there unless you do other things to deter them. It
wasn't the surface that was going to deter those types of uses and his
feeling was that he'd like something strollerable. There's a lot of
babies in strollers and moms and dads and families that are out there with
the little kids with the training wheels and the baby in the stroller and
going out for walks and that was his feeling because we get a lot of that
type of use.
Hasek: I'd just comment on that. I've raised two kids now through
strollers and we have walked the trails out at Carver Park. The wood chip
trails with a stroller.
Schroers: The other thing there, we've got the trail goes all the way up
and down Kerber Blvd. that is very strollerable and in Chanhassen Pond
Park we just want to keep a little bit in tuna with nature. If you put a
bituminous trail in there and it's practically developed then.
Sietsema: That's fine. It was just a recommendation.
Robinson: Maybe we should put Chan Pond parks on our agenda to discuss it
because this is supposed to be a brainstorming session.
....",
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 21
,.....
Sietsema: I'll put on my list to find out about prices on the landscaping
then and grading the trail at any rate. Smoothing it.
Mady: If we just had park maintenance who was capable of using a cat,
doing the work that I described. We don't have the funding available to
put a bitminous trail down there at Chan Pond Park, I don't think.
Schroers: The other point of that is we need trails desparately in other
areas of the City more than we need it around that pond I think. Just as
connecters into other trails.
Boyt: I have another item on here. Money for a development plan for City
Center Park.
Robinson: Don't we have that?
Boyt: Is it? Did we put it in? We talked about it...
Sietsema: There's money in this year for City Center Park for play
surface, warming house and totlot.
Boyt: We need to have a plan including the school's acreage so it has to
~e a joint project.
,-Jasek: Tha t 's right. We tal ked about tha t and the reason we d idn' t go
ahead with it was we didn't know what the City's plans were for the
school.
Boyt: Right and we were supposed to find out in March? Jim?
Mady: In April we told you but due to the nature of what's happening with
the Eckankar park site and inability to get information from Doug Hanson
as to what his property, if he'd be willing to sell his portion that's on
the north side. The Community Center Task Force has tabled any action
until the Council goes foward with whatever is going to happen with the
Eckankar parcel because that's a portion of the community center process.
Somethings got to be known before we do anything else because if one thing
happens, it's possible that it throws off something else.
Boyt: I have another thing to add to the list. A park development plan
for our new southern park.
Robinson: Should we have a boat access development for Lake Susan? Is
that all in the grant money?
Sietsema: Well we don't know how much it's going to cost. We'll have a
mini-feasibility ready to present at the next meeting. I think we should
budget, at least on reserve, 50% of whatever that cost will be.
,.....
.obinson: We should put it down as an item so we don't forget about it.
Sietsema:
Lake Lucy.
The other things on my list, I have boat access development for
I also think that we should put something in reserve or
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 22
..-"
something for Carrico property. I believe that it will take probably at
least a year to come to terms on that.
Mady: I was going to ask about that. Roger's meeting with their
attorney. Do they have any time1ine on that?
Sietsema: They're going to meet in 3 weeks. They swapped appraisals
right now because their appraisal came in at $330,000.00 for that piece
and ours was $57,500.00. So they're swapping. They're basing theirs on
land costs in Eden prairie, undeveloped land and in the MUSA line.
Basically Roger and the land owner met and said they thought they were
both ridiculous and let's swap them and see what we come at. He offered
to split the difference with us right off the bat so you know that he
knows his is twice as much as it should be which is $165,000.00. It's
still $100,000.00 more than we can really afford right today. But I think
that we should put some of that money in reserve for the acquisition of
the Carrico property.
Hasek: It'd be easier to go out and buy one of those 10ts...out there.
Subdivide it and sell the house on it. There must be a parcel out there
someplace in Curry Hills. That's ridiculous.
Robinson: Can we put the tennis court back in South Lotus.
3chroers: That's going to be a skating rink Curt.
...."",
Sietsema: I'll tell you what the scoop is on South Lotus Lake is. I
haven't proceeded with a master park plan for that so we can do the
development because they're talking about realigning TH 101 and West 78th
Street down in that area and putting in a stop light and there may be
additional land available. Don has it at the consultant right now looking
at how that's all going to fit together and he's going to come back with a
recommendation on what this chunk, which I don't know a size yet. I don't
know if it's an acre or 5 acres more that would be adjacent to the well
house site but it's a possibility that may come back as the best use for
that is to add it to the parkland. So it doesn't seem timely right now to
do any plan for that without knowing how big that piece of property is
going to be and we'd like to stay away from the well house or the lift
station, whatever that is there.
Boyt: Should we put it in the budget though?
Sietsema: I think that we should roll it over. I think we should roll
over your tennis court and the development for South Lotus Lake.
Boyt: We have to check our budget and make sure we rollover everything
that we can because we've missed things before.
Schroers: I have some i nforma t ion on Lake Lucy for you Lor i . I talked
..0 the game warden, Steve Wa1 ters who has Chanhassen and Lake Minnetonka ...."
area about the idea of the portage and he thought that was a pretty
reasonable approach in lieu of that there isn't a good place to access the
lake and he said that he would be willing to work with me or the City on
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 23
,...,
talking to the people in the DNR.
Sietsema: I'd like to pursue that. I called Del Barber and he was very,
I was amazed at how positive he was about that option. Then I talked to
fisheries and they said that if we could do some special programs, fishing
programs on the lake, they would have no problem with it but Del said that
he had to talk to the central office. I got a letter back from him today
and said no way. The central office does not consider a portage access
and adequate access onto Lake Lucy without parking and a separate ramp
into that lake and they will not consider it. Now they know that we're
working on it and I don't think that we should give up that easily but
they're very fearful of setting a precedent. So before we give up and
we'll have the mini-feasibility on the outlot by the next meeting but
before we give up on the portage idea, I would like to call in Kathleen
Wallace and some of the hot shots in DNR and meet with them. Del went out
there and drilled holes in the ice and it takes 500 feet before you get to
a 4 foot depth off that outlet. That's 500 feet of dredging which is
$20,000.00 just for the dredging.
Schroers: Lori would you be interested in talking to Mr. Walters?
Sietsema: Sure. What's his first name?
""'chroers: Steve. He lives just right down off of Kerber, right down on
-":han Park.
Sietsema: Do you have his phone number?
Schroers: I do but not with me. I'll call you and give it to you and
I'll talk to Steve and let him know that you're interested in talking to
him and maybe he could shine a little more light on the subject for you.
Sietsema: Yes, I would like to pursue the fisheries aspect because their
idea was that, and I don't want to get off on a tangent on this too much
but his idea was that if they made that as a game fish lake where you
throw back anything you catch, that doing a special program like that on
that lake would justify a portage. The difficult to get to it. He
thought that would justify the portage situation but the head honcho said
no way.
Schroers: But that's like everything else. It's etched in stone until we
change it.
Mady: It sounds like the Council's real interested in this item too from
last night's meeting.
Sietsema: My next step was to contact Del again and ask him what his gut
feeling is if I put pressure directly to the central office myself. I
,,-aon't know if we could get representatives involved in what our situation
s. I need to kind of clarify some of those issues and see what his gut
feeling is. He's been very frank with me. When I intially came up with
the idea, he said definitely it would have to be a quiet lake and that's a
hurdle in itself.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 24
~
Schroers: I think we do have a lot of community support. We have some
already and I think we could get a lot more if that would help.
sietsema: I think we do too but I'm not going to try to fool anybody that
anybody's going to give up their boat motor that easily. I think there's
support out there but I think the people are going to want to keep their
motors too but I don't think it's something that can't be done. I just
know that, my gut feeling is that it's a hurdle.
Mady: We didn't hear from the seven residents who had access on the lake
this time around.
Schroers: One time I'm hearing there's 3 people that actually dock a boat
on the lake and then I'm hearing 7 and then I'm hearing 12. Now I go down
there all the time and I think that maybe twice in my entire life I've
seen a motor boat on that lake.
Boyt: The neighbors seem amenable to having no motors.
Sietsema: Yes, but I don't think you talked to all of them. I would
think we would be trying to fool ourselves if we thought that's going to
be easy.
ooyt: No one stood up. They sat there. If they would have been real
concerned, somebody would have said something.
......,"
Hoffman: Previous meeting.
Mady: They did at the previous meeting and I talked to at least those two
individuals at church and they're concerned. Real concerned.
Sietsema: But without getting into that because it's not on our agenda, I
don't think it's something that we can't overcome if we can get DNR to
agree with us and I'm still working on that but that's just a quick and
easy update on what that is. I also thought that we should rollover the
money for the totlot equipment on my list.
Mady: I think we're going to be rolling anything that we've got.
Sietsema: Well we have to identify it. It's not something that
automatically happens.
Mady: I think because of the timing, simply the timing of this budget
process, we will rollover everything that's on our budget to me because
it simply is not going to be able for us to know if something can be done
or not. If we're going to be recommending a budget in May, there's no way
we know if something's going to be done by October or December. We would
hope that most of them would be but I'm not going to take a chance on
':ha t . --'
Sietsema: Well if you don't think it's going to happen, then you should
roll it over now because it's going to take a budget adjustment to do it
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 25
,.....
later.
Mady: To roll it?
Sietsema: To reallocate the funds in 1990.
Mady: I think when we recommend our budget for 1990, I think we're going
to recommend anything that's still open on the 1989 budget. At least I
will. I will recommend anything that's still open to be rolled in
addition to the 1990 budget.
Sietsema: Well it doesn't really work that way because, they have to
present a budget to the State and the State needs to know a hard figure.
They can't say, and anything else we don't spend.
Boyt: Projects can be rolled over though. They're not part of next
year's budget.
Sietsema: We have to roll them over in the budget process.
Boyt: In April?
Robinson: Specific dollar amounts.
""
Jietsema: That's why I'm saying, we know the tot lot equipment at City
Center Park...
Boyt: Could we amend our budget then later in the year?
Sietsema: Yes. But for what gets sent to City Council, simply saying and
anything that doesn't get done in 1989, it's not acceptable to the State.
The State needs our budget and they need to know exactly how much you
think you're going to have. How much you're going to spend. How much
you're going to have left over. So something as nebulous as anything
else that we don't happen to get around to isn't good enough. Maybe you
want to run quick through the different parks in the City and see if
there's something that you might think of.
Boyt: There are some parks we could add more play equipment.
Schroers: And parking lots.
Mady: Each of the three park developments is going to be probably
$20,000.00 a piece. That's $60,000.00. When you start putting
ballfields and swingsets and all these fun things, we're probably at
$20,000.00 a piece on them. The Carrico park is probably going to cost us
$75,000.00.
~oyt: Well let's go through the parks.
Mady: Okay, Lake Ann. That's coming up the next item isn't it?
Boyt: Did we do anything with the playground equipment at the beach?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 26
--'
Sietsema: We put new stuff in and threw away the old stuff.
Boyt: Do we have enough down there?
Sietsema: There's no more room.
Robinson: Didn't we amend some items to cover the overrun on here? What
is being taken out?
Sietsema: No, we didn't have to do that because we found that extra
money. We had $100,000.00 extra that we took in and the $40,000.00 in
trail dedication fee that wasn't expected.
Mady: Anyway, Lake Ann.
Boyt: Are we going to move the trees this year? That's something we
talked about.
Hasek: Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
Mady: We do have excess money at Lake Ann.
Yasek: The only reason I say that is because unless we get some rain this
tear, those trees wouldn't survive two days after we moved them. There's ~J
no point in even thinking about moving trees around this year.
Mady: Historically when we have a drought year, this state has always has
an abundant year the next year.
Sietsema: It ain't going to happen.
Schroers: As far as Lake Ann, I would just like to see the major things
get accomplished and if we could focus on that and see that the work is
being done on time for the new ballfields and the major improvements that
are going in on Lake Ann. Let's focus on those and get those done first.
Boyt: Are they putting water out to...
Sietsema: No.
Mady: Since Lake Ann is being discussed right now. The bid process was
completed. Were the bids accepted last night?
Sietsema: Yes they were and they came in well under.
Mady: So if we wanted to, would we still be able to spend that extra
$50,000.00 for other Lake Ann improvements?
1ietsema: Yes.
-'
Mady: This year?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 27
,..,
Sietsema: Todd's got some ideas in that area.
Mady: Can we go through that information? It's not part of the budget
process.
Sietsema: Well, he's got some things that are part of the budget process.
Hoffman: Field 3 in the new addition, the most northerly field is looking
at being a regulation Babe Ruth field with dugouts and since dugouts are
not part of the bid process which was recently put in here, that is one
area where a portion of that remainder of the money could be allocated to
be used for. Might as well put it in there as a part of construction this
year. Field 3 would be the Little League field. The existing Field 3.
The most northerly field on the new would be Babe Ruth. So Babe Ruth,
Little League. The youth portion of that park would be the north two
fields. The other four fields would be...
Hasek: Babe Ruth and Little League. What happens to Number I?
Hoffman: The lights remain for softball.
Hasek: So it's a 300 foot softball.
...........offman:
,:;oftball.
300 foot softball. Then the other two new fields are a 300 foot
The only shorter softball would be Field 2.
Schroers:
So we are going to end up with 5 softball fields at Lake Ann?
Hoffman:
Four.
Schroers:
We had originally talked about 5 though right?
Mady: No. It was always Little League/Babe Ruth.
Sietsema: This is Field 1, 2 and 3 that's existing. This is the one
that's lit. This is the smallest one. We're going to make this into a
Little League and this into a Babe Ruth and these 4 will be softball.
Boyt: I'd like to use some of that to put in more playground equipment by
the baseball/softball.
Hasek: So what else did you have in mind? So the dugouts, what did you
figure they would be worth?
Hoffman: Dugouts, probably add another $10,000.00 on there.
Sietsema: We were talking about dugouts and pitching mounds and a batting
cage.
,.....
offman: Yes, pitching mounds. Possibly a batting cage along with that.
Mady: Pitching mounds are dirt cheap.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 28
-.-"
Sietsema: Batting cages are ugly.
Hoffman: A batting cage would be something additional. The thing with a
batting cage is that it may require some, to take a look at the grading
plan, if there's a flat enough area adjacent to that ballfield where it
could be put in. Allowing a batting cage where you have the pitching
machine pitch down and bat into the batting cage.
Hasek: Oh, you're talking about locating it permanently?
Hoffman: Permanently, correct.
Sietsema: Except that it's ugly. It looks like a dog kennel.
Schroers: You could paint it.
Sietsema: A painted dog kennel.
Hasek: What Blaine
League and stuff is
move it out there.
set it up, plug it
That way if we had
'".he cage.
does with their pitching machines for their Little
they have a plug in on top of the mound and they just
If they want to use it for a game, they go get it and
in and use it and then take it back when they're done.
a rollover cage, then all you need is a spot to put
.....".
Boyt: There are quite a few cities that use pitching machines.
Schroers: But when you do that, then you need storage. You need a place
to put it when you're done.
Hasek: They've got a place to put it in the barn out there that they can
stick it in.
Sietsema: Yes, we've got a place to put it.
Hoffman: Those details can really be worked out at a later time but
that's where a portion of that money could go.
Hasek: How much do we guesstimate that we have to play with?
Mady: Probably close to 50 because out of that $300,000.00, we still have
to pay any bonding costs.
Sietsema: Which was $30,000.00.
Schroers: Todd, are you recommending that it go there? Is that what
you'd like to see it there?
Hoffman: Yes, I recommend that it go there. Do we absolutely have the
'ption to be using this money for other things besides what we -'
specifically stated in the referendum?
Sietsema: Well it's for development.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 29
"'"
Mady: This is park development related directly to the ballfields.
Schroers: If we had $150,000.00 in Lake Ann, could that money also be
used towards purchasing the land in southern Chanhassen?
Mady: No.
Sietsema: We can only use it for park development at Lake Ann Park. It's
not that narrow that it can only be used for ballfields. We're using it
for sealcoating and curb and gutter in the parking lots.
Schroers: But it has to stay at Lake Ann?
Sietsema: It has to be at Lake Ann.
Boyt: Can it be used to acquire adjacent parkland?
Sietsema: No. It's park development at Lake Ann Park.
Boyt: That could be called park development.
Sietsema: That would be park acquisition.
lflii"
Joyt: To them it would be. To me it wouldn't.
Sietsema: There's a difference between park acquisition and park
development.
Boyt: I'd like to see some of it put towards that playground.
Hasek: On the offshot that the optimists has been on the weather, maybe
we can think about moving some trees out there. I don't know what that
would cost. I think if we were to move every other tree on every field
that's out there, I don't know that that would necessarily hurt anything.
Boyt: That's what the woman recommended.
Sietsema: What did Laurie say how much that would cost?
Schroers: How many trees are we going to move?
Mady: She recommended every other one and she said it was fairly cheap
wasn't it?
Sietsema: $2,500.00 a tree or something.
Mady: No, it wasn't quite that much.
"""""
ietsema: I don't remember.
Mady: It's wasn't that much because you can buy a good sized tree for
$2,500.00.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 30
.....",
Schroers: You can rent a...and I can run it for cheaper than that.
Hasek: But you're going to need a big one because those are 6 to 8
inches.
Schroers: You need a big one I know. I move trees like that all the
time. You can move about, depending on how far you're going, you can move
probably, if you're really going 20 trees a day, transplant.
Mady: I would guess $200.00 a tree would be about right. I know we've
done it for that.
Sietsema: She gave us a number and I can't for the life of me, and
there's 24 trees on each field. So that's 36 trees.
Hasek: Have you got an answer for us Wes? What it would cost us to move
6 to 8 inch bass trees a piece?
Wes Dunsmore: You'd get a better deal on the quantity and if they're all
in the same area. We've had...Round Lake about this big around and they
were about $300.00 a piece but they were all right next to one another.
~ady: If the weather cooperates, that would give us a nice looking new
t>ark.
...",;
Hasek: And even if we lost the trees that were moved, it wouldn't hurt
because the trees that are there because eventually they'd have to be
thinned.
Schroers: I can show you several hundred trees that were moved in the
middle of that drought last summer and they're doing just fine and dandy
right now.
Mady:
Did they get water?
Schroers: Water every day.
Hasek: That's our problem...to be able to go out there and water them.
(A tape change occurred at this point.)
Hoffman: Company picnics, large family picnics are getting to be the rage
at Lake Ann. They're booked, just about the complete summer is booked
already and the primary use area is that large knob just above the beach
area and that would be an optimal place for a large picnic pavillon or
picnic shelter. Just a beautiful place that would be used most
effectively in that area. One other option is looking at some sort of
clearing and a trail plan in the wooded westerly portion of the park so
'hen people come out to Lake Ann, they not only can go to the beach but -'
they also can park out there and take a little nature walk through that
wooded area. It's a beautiful part of the park which is under utilized
right now.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 31
,.....
Sietsema: We've got a couple of Eagle Scouts that want to do it.
Hoffman: Putting a trail through in that area, a walking trail through
that area would utilize another portion of that park.
Robinson: I like the shelter idea.
Boyt: As long as we can get a better deal on this one.
Hasek: I think if we buy the material and install it immediately, we
could probably get it at about half priced.
Schroers: I believe if you're going to build a shelter, that extra
$50,000.00 is going to be eaten up by it.
Hasek: What did the last one cost us?
Mady: $18,000.00.
Schroers: But that's not a shelter. You're talking about something
that's going to accommodate...
"""ietsema: $18,000.00, that didn't include the labor.
Hoffman: We'll look to a concrete slab and an open ended shelter.
Boyt: Something like the one the Lion's built.
Hasek: You know what I'd like to see out there, I'd like to see something
like they have out at the Arboretum myself. Have you been into those?
They have garage doors, there's 3 garage doors on each side. 8 foot
garage doors. On the inside it's all concrete. There's probably 30
picnic tables in each one.
Hoffman: Less than that. 20.
Hasek: Then there's plug ins along the walls and counters on the ends of
the building so you can put hot plates or whatever you want inside of
there. On a nice day you open it up. Are there skylights in those things
too?
Hoffman: Just lighting.
Hasek: It seemed to me like we were out there on a cold day and it was
awful light.
Sietsema: Okay, I can come up with some price ranges on that for our next
~eeting. Basically I'm writing down your ideas. I'll come back with
rices and we'll have to cut it down from there. We're on Lake Ann Park.
Did you want to go through any other parks?
Mady: Well we can go through real quick. Lake Susan?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 32
--'
Schroers: Didn't hear anything about that archery range?
Hasek: Get us some prices on that Larry.
Schroers: It's inexpensive.
sietsema: It's not the price on that as much as where we're going to do
it.
Schroers: That can be looked at after the major things are put into the
park.
Hasek: I don't see any reason why that couldn't go in right along with
the nature trail. I don't see a conflict there.
Boyt: Adjacent to the batting cage.
Hasek: Backstop for the ballfield.
Mady: Bluff Creek.
Rice Marsh Lake. Chan Estates.
Boyt:
.-tad y :
That's where that lime shelter
is.
...,.,
They fixed that.
Boyt: Some of the play equipment was taken out. Was it replaced?
Mady: Yes. It's new. And we paved the parking lot. Meadow Green Park
in Chaparral. North Lotus Lake.
Boyt: They need more play equipment. They just have a little tiny piece.
They need another, at least $5,000.00.
Mady: Chan Pond. Herman Fieid.
Sietsema: We have $35,000.00 in the reserve fund for that.
Mady: Carver Beach.
Sietsema: We've got $3,000.00 in there for the park area along Lotus
Trail.
Mady: When are you planning to...
Sietsema: I was for the 11th but it might get pushed back to the 25th.
Schroers: I would like to see some kind of a Scout project or something
go in at Carver Beach just along the trail area where people walk along
:he edge of the lake. Just to widen it out. Brush it out and pick up the -'
litter so the neighbors in that area recognize that we are starting to do
something to improve that area and keep it up as a park.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 33
,.....
Sietsema: I'm planning to hold a public hearing to find out what the
people in the area want done with that strip of land. You know what
they're looking for.
Hoffman: I think they'd be happy with that.
Schroers: In the meantime I think that it would cost us very little money
and just about no effort to get a scout project going on down there just
for 1 or 2 days of litter picking and brushing out. It would make a big
difference.
Hasek: Maybe install a couple of culverts or something too so...
Mady: Actually Mike Lynch offered the Scouts, because that's not an Eagle
Scout type project, that they'd be willing to come down and do that. They
may not be happy but Mike said they'd be happy to. Chan Hills Park.
We've got that covered. South Lotus Lake. We were talking about that.
Greenwood Shores Park. Bandimere Heights.
Hasek: I have a quick question on Greenwood Shores Park. I understand
that the last Council directed someone to take the no parking signs out
down there. Did that ever happen?
""ietsema: They directed them to look at the need for them and I bel ieve
~hey talked about it last night and I was not paying that close of
attention but I think there's some action going on in there and I'll find
out what it is and get back to you before I say something incorrect.
Mady: City Center Park we talked about.
already doing something this year there.
Carver playground. We're
Bandimere Heights?
Boyt: We put some playground equipment in.
Erhart: Are you putting more in there?
Sietsema: Well we don't have a whole lot of room down there.
Boyt:
there.
We could get one towards the open field. Another stretch
That gets a lot of use. Especially with soccer.
Sietsema: Do you remember if we did two phases?
Boyt: The neighbors have asked for a half basketball court down there.
Sietsema: If we want to keep that soccer field the way it is, we don't
have a lot of room for more stuff because if you put more equipment out
towards the field, you've got kids running in.
~oyt: Not towards the field.
Sietsema: I bel ieve that when they did the plan for what's there, he did
a second phase so I'll check on that. I'll write it down.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 34
...-'
Mady: City Center we're handling. Carver playground is being put in this
year hopefully.
Boyt: Do we have the landscaping for that this year?
Sietsema: In which?
Boyt: Carver playground. We talked about it. I don't think that needs
to be part of the road work. When the entrance changes to that and moves
down to the corner, we wanted to do a little landscaping.
Mady: We have totlot equipment and we've got $3,000.00 for off street
parking. $350.00 for a park 10 sign.
Boyt: We talked about to do landscaping in one end...
Sietsema: Part of the trail plan, the trail budget was the relocation of
the park entrance and putting the fence around. It probably wouldn't hurt
to put some money in for landscaping that entrance.
Mady: Minnewashta Heights. Cathcart. We aren't going to do anything at
Cathcart because we don't get any benefit. Curry Farms, we've got that in
development and then the Lake Susan Hills. Are there any other
redevelopments?
...."."
Sietsema: The other thing was you wanted to look for parkland on the west
side of Minnewashta.
Mady: ...about Minnetonka West Jr. High.
Sietsema: What about it?
Mady: Was there anything needed up there? Last night there was a minimal
amount of discussion at Minnetonka West Jr. High about was there, really
before we started to hold the meeting, was there a mound up there and
baseball fields or whatever.
Sietsema: I'm pretty sure it's all soccer fields now. There's no
ballfields anymore and Todd might know that when he gets back.
Mady: Okay, yeah we wanted to talk about Minnewashta park. Did you want
to see anything done at Minnewashta park? We were going to have a public
hearing.
Hasek: I think that we should still have a pUblic hearing.
Boyt: Park development?
Mady: I think we have $20,000.00 or whatever. What did we do with
~innewashta Park? Did we have money for that?
..""
Sietsema: Minnewashta Heights still has $20,000.00 for a park shelter.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 35
"'"
Mady: We should have sufficient money at this point in time to get us to
next year I think. The other thing I wanted to add was looking at
additional parkland on the west side of Minnewashta.
Schroers: Didn't we talk about asking the residents in the Minnewashta
Heights area there what they wanted in that park?
Sietsema: I've got it scheduled on my future agenda list for a public
hearing.
Schroers: So until that time I don't think we should earmark that money
for anything specific.
Hasek: Park acquisition. I think that maybe that should be, we should
try to time that with, that's a real tough one.
Sietsema: You know what we could do is start a park acquisition reserve
fund and then we just have to wait and see what comes up as priorities and
what opportunities because what we've got on this wish list right now is
way more than we've got money for.
Mady: There's one other item we might want to consider and that's some
kind of a trail fee and piece of equipment. I know Eden prairie they've
~ot an actual vaccum truck thing they use now instead of a sweeper.
Sietsema: How much was it?
Wes Dunsmore: It was $23,000.00 or $24,000.00.
Schroers: That thing is expensive.
the first phase at least, something
for just running around and picking
fixing here and there.
I think we'd be looking at one, in
more of a Cushman type utility vehicle
up litter and doing a little spot
Boyt: Could we convert the Zamboni?
Schroers: Where are we at with that? We talked about that before about
getting a Cushman type vehicle and have an additional summertime person.
Where are we with that?
Sietsema: We recommended that to engineering that they include that and
I believe they did have the vehicles and they added a full time position
for the maintenance of downtown.
Mady: They can use pickup trucks for the parks I know that.
Sietsema: I don't know if their budget includes an additional seasonal
person or not. I know they added another grounds maintenance, park
~aintenance staff person to take care of the medians and what not in
. 'owntown.
Schroers: Can you check to see if they got a utility type vehicle like
the Cushman?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 36
--'
Sietsema: No they didn't. We recommended pick-ups. We didn't recommend
the Cushman.
Hoffman: Dale didn't feel that he can get from Lake Ann to all the parks
throughout the City with a Cushman vehicle whereas a pick-up is more
applicable.
Schroers: The problem with a pick-up truck is that there are times of the
year like right now when you shouldn't be driving a pick-up truck on the
trails with the frost coming off. When the frost comes off the trails...
and you can do serious damage to those trails. Especially at that those
times the Cushman vehicles are really handy for getting out and doing like
drainage projects where the trail is flooding and things like that.
Hoffman: I think right now probably their position is that the park
doesn't have the responsibility for enough trail maintenance that it
merits that purchase.
Schroers: I can understand that. But I think at some point in time when
we do get more trails in place, that a utility type vehicle like that,
smaller than a pick-up truck is real necessary. We use ours a lot.
~ady: Any other ideas on spending money? You don't need a recommendation
~n any of these do you? -'
Sietsema: No. I'll come back with prices and realistic on this wish
list.
DISCUSSION REGARDING THE COLLECTION OF PARK DEDICATION FEES.
Sietsema: This was requested to be put on the agenda by Ed. Currently
the City Code specifically states that the park and trail dedication fees
should be paid at the time the building permit is issued. That is what
we're doing. We're charging $500.00 a unit for single family and $167.00
a unit for trail dedication fee. The $500.00 is for park. This is common
practice throughout the metro area. Not everybody in the metro area and I
don't know specifically who does it this way and who collects it at the
time the plats are approved.
Hasek: I know it's an option that's available. I worked on a project up
in Champlin that required of a commercial/residential piece that we were
working on like...$60,000.00 in park dedication fees at the time of plat
approval. A chunk of money and it comes right up front because they know
they need it.
Mady: One of the things it does is it demonstrates the financial
stability of the developer. It shows that you have a developer...if he
lakes his payments up front. That way you know that you're not going to,
if this guy can do it that way, his ability to complete his project
instead of getting it half done and you may end up with a used portion.
......",
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 37
"......
Sietsema: That hasn't really been a problem here though because they have
a letter of credit that they have to put up and all that kind of stuff
too. It does provide us with the money up front to go develop the
parkland.
Hasek: Not only that but it gives us a chunk of money to work with rather
than $500.00 at a time. Trying to guess.
Sietsema: If you want to do it that way, I need a recommendation.
Hasek: If I had a recommendation, it would be simply to ask Council to
take a look at the possibility of that.
Sietsema: It would require a City Code amendment.
Mady: I think you're also going to probably be requesting to do a study
of the metropolitan area to find out what happens in the metro area.
Sietsema: Does that make a difference?
Hasek: I don't know, would it necessarily be only related to park fees?
Maybe it's for all of their fees. It might be just something the City
~ants to look at overall. I don't know that we want to necessarily be the
.Jnly ones.
Sietsema: You want to make a recommendation to City Council to?
Hasek: Maybe it starts at Planning but have Planning take a look at the
possibility of pulling down some of their fees.
Sietsema: Well we make our recommendations to City Council.
Mady: We ask Planning to look at stuff from time to time too.
Boyt: He's talking about their fees.
Schroers: That's just like asking for a favor though. Not actually
making a recommendation.
Sietsema: What do you want? What are you doing?
Hasek: Do we have to do something?
Sietsema: Do you want to do something? You don't have to do anything.
Hasek: I guess I would just like to ask that maybe we just extend a
little letter asking Planning Commission to think about the possibility of
~ulling down some of their fees for development at the time of approval of
he project as opposed to waiting until the permits are pulled for
construction.
Schroers: What kind of time frame are we talking about there?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 38
...".
Hasek: On a housing development, if a lot doesn't build for 5 years, then
we wait 5 years for the $500.00. Whereas if it's put up front at the time
the development goes i.n, when we come in for final plat...
Schroers: Is there such a thing as a normal timeframe between the time
that the building permit would be issued and...
Sietsema: You either collect the fee at the time the final plat approval
is given or at the time the building permit is issued because if you do it
sometime inbetween, somebody's going to miss it and you're not going to
get it at all.
Schroers: I understand that but I'm wondering if there is a halfway
normal timeframe between those two occurrences.
Boyt: It could be years and years.
Schroers: It could be months or years.
Hoffman: Curry Farms went in in a big rush. Curry Farms' building
permits are probably what 90% in. The money is there. Whereas a
1evelopment like Chanhassen Hills where they're probably only 25% complete
and it would probably take another 4 or 5, 6 to 7 years before the rest of -'
those are complete, if you took that big chunk of money up front, you
would certainly have a lot of money available for development but the
roads may not be there yet for development. There's a lot of other things
to look at.
Sietsema: The justification of having it done at the time the building
permit is issued is that's when the need is there is when the people build
their house and move in.
Schroers: That seems to make sense. Now if we have the money up front,
like years up front, 5 years, 7 years up front and we spend it now and we
don't have the foresight to see what's happening in that 5 to 7 years, are
we going to regret having had that money up front and already spent
because things are going to come up that we didn't know about at the time.
Sietsema: The only thing is that I can say is that it's not really, there
are not that many subdivisions in the City of Chanhassen that have that
much of a delay that I can really think of. In the unsewered area
possibly but I'm looking at the developments that are approved. When
Saddlebrook was approved, they developed right away. Curry Farms.
Chanhassen Hills. Lake Susan Hills West. They're all underway. We're
getting the money quite quickly.
Hoffman: A recession could end that but...
Sietsema: Right, and that's a good point.
Hasek: Like New Horizon up in...
....."
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 39
,....,
Boyt: Yes, you can cut a development in half and we get half the funds
available to develop the property that we required.
Hasek: I think there's always the possibility that you've missed
something. That's kind of the nature of planning.
Sietsema: From an administrative standpoint it would be wonderful to have
it collected at the time of plat approval.
Robinson: Plus there's interest on that money so you'd be better off.
Schroers: ...basis and use it wisely. Otherwise, if you're spending
money before the fact, that can really come back to haunt you. Almost be
like spending money that we don't really have. I mean we have it but it
would take an awful lot of serious planning ahead for proper use of it.
Hasek: I think there's pros and cons to doing it both ways but I think
the pros to collecting it up front far outweight the cons if we really sat
down and took a hard look at it and I think that's why the cities that
have opted to grab it upfront have chosen to do so.
Schroers: If you could get the money upfront for acquisition, that's an
~bvious advantage there, to get the property would certainly be more
.easonable now than 5 years from now. It'd be great if we could get up
front money for acquisition.
Hoffman: It may benefit as well as a bargaining tool. If a developer is
faced with having to pay that big a chunk upfront, he may be more willing
to bargain to give us some additional land for park development in that
area as well.
Robinson: Could he possibly back out of that much of a front end load?
Hasek: I think it would probably be pulled down by phases anyway. A
large developer would phase his development and he would only plat a phase
at a time.
Sietsema: Just as we just had a site plan review for the third addition
of Lake Susan Hills West. We went through that with first and second
addition and that would be the time, when final plat approval is given for
their addition, that's when you'd collect it.
Hasek: And just think about the situation where you might have a large
development like that and maybe the housing market is really strong right
now, he gets 2 out of 5 phases in and just about sells out those 2 out of
5 phases. Comes in for a third and gets that platted and only half of
that develops and the fourth and fifth are 5 years down the road. Well,
~e don't have enough money to put together all the parks that were needed
or that area, even part of the parks because we haven't got the money
from those last 2 1/2 phases simply because we had to wait for them. We
haven't got enough to do without opening part of it and part of it is only
beneficial...
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 40
......."
Sietsema: Did you make a motion?
Hasek: Yes I did.
Sietsema: This is the motion I thought I heard. Ed moved to ask Planning
to request fees be paid at time of final plat approval is given rather
than with the building permit.
Schroers: Second.
Hasek: It's a motion but I don't think we do make recommendations to the
Planning Commission so maybe it's just something that we ask them to
discuss and take a look at or to review.
Sietsema: Consider.
Hasek moved, Schroers seconded to ask the Planning Commission to consider
that fees be paid at the time of final plat approval rather than with the
buidling permit. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
~OMMISSION PRESENTATIONS: PLAYGROUND SURFACE MATERIAL, LARRY SCHROERS. ~
Schroers: I'll try to make it short and sweet. I have some samples of a
couple of different types of playground sur-facing but I can tell you right
up front that both of them are very expensive. The other alternatives are
basically no longer acceptable. pearock and sand has been decided that
they don't have the cushioning that's needed to meet current safety
requirements so I have two samples. The first is this green rubbery like
substance here. Before I pass them around, I'd like to tell you a little
bit about it. It's call Tuff Kote. This is supposed to be a 4 season
application. If you keep it shoveled, the color of it is supposed to melt
the snow and ice which goes down through the material and runs through
these channels along either a concrete or a bituminous base that these are
glued to in 39 inch square sheets.
Boyt: Is this what they had at...
Schroers: Yes. And the bottom line on this, installed, if you went I
think with the concrete installed, this is $13.00 per square foot. That's
a current estimate. Now by the time we get around to doing something with
it, who knows where it will be.
Sietsema: That includes the concrete?
Schroers: Yes, that includes the concrete and the installation. The
}rading. . .
....."
(A tape change occurred at this point.)
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 41
If/II""'.
Schroers: ...It has a real good cushioning affect. What's recommended is
that there is this drainage rock underneath and then there's a liner and
then 12 inches of this. This is supposed to last for 3 years and then
you're not, you don't have to totally replace it. You just top dress it.
In an area like at a bottom of a slide or something where the pearock and
sand and stuff normally gets scraped up, this holds much better because
the wires intertwine and it's a lot, they just hold in place better. The
maintenance on it is basically you just rack the area every once in a
while and fill in the holes and knock off the high spots. Then after 3
years they recommend like a 4 inch top dressing of new material.
Sietsema: How much is that?
Schroers: I have a whole bunch of information on the fibar system but I
don't have it on the top of my head.
Sietsema: What do you guys use in Hennepin Parks?
Schroers: Pea rock. Currently there is, I don't know if it's a task
force or there's a study that's being conducted right now and the results
of it aren't going to be out until October and the park is waiting to hear
those results before they decide what their direction is going to be in
"'he future as far as surfacing material. I can tell you right now that
~ur planning and engineering department feels that the tuff turf is too
expensive for our application.
Sietsema: Whatever happened with the ground up tire ideas?
Wes Dunsmore: We're using the sand but Larry were you over at the
Marriott Inn the other week when Steve King from Landscape Structures
showed us that?
Schroers: No, I wasn't there.
Wes Dunsmore: I don't know what study you're referring to but I think his
name is Steve King or Larry King from Landscape Structures. He's the guy
who started it. There is no standards right now but they are working, all
these manufacturers together they are working. It will probably be 5
years before there's any standards that says 6 inches of sand, 10 inches
or whatever. His recommendation is buckshot and that's 3/8th's inch. If
you use sand, most people look at concrete sand, launch sand. That's no
good. It's like walking right down on a waterline of a beach.
Schroers: When I was talking to our engineers, there's a problem with
definition. Some people call our pearock sand. Some people call it
buckshot. Some people call it pearock so to define it so that everybody
is talking about the same thing and calling one material a specific name
,,-is something that they're working on and our planning and engineering
epartment, I can't remember the study that he said is taking place but
they feel there's some new information that's going to be released in
October that's going to help them make some decision as to the direction
that we're going to go with surfacing in the future.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - page 42
....."
Wes Dunsmore: The whole thing with these structures is, when you buy one,
I don't care who you buy it from, there's a mark on each individual pole.
This is the top of your sand or whatever. That's fine but it depends on
the height of your structure. Anything over 3 feet has to have a rail.
Well the fall distances from the top of the railing, figuring a kid could
stand on that to get the 3 foot, and what you have to do when you get
those structures, if they say 19 inches. 19 and 12 inches is kind of a
guideline right now. If you feel you want more, you may have to on that
particular structure, order extra long poles so that you can put more
material in there. Otherwise your structure will be too close to the
ground or you'll have your concrete that's holding those timbers in, that
will be exposed and that's no good.
Sietsema: So what they were recommending was a 3/8 inch buckshot that was
washed?
Wes Dunsmore: Yes. It's 3/8ths. No...or anything else. If you go down
and call up these places out here at Carver and stuff, have you got bog
sand, yes and they bring it out. It doesn't wash sand. When you get up
there and most of these structures I bet you can find an 8 to 19 foot fall
distance and 8 inches of that sand is not very soft when your head comes
iown on there. He says that everybody...but don't ask for bog sand. He
~a11s it buckshot. Maybe nobody else wants it but that's what the school .-'
district in Hopkins uses.
Sietsema:
That's what we're using but after...
Wes Dunsmore: That's what I wanted to use. We've got 3 structures corning
in this spring. I would like to try the buckshot but nobody listens to
me. We're using sand right now.
Sietsema: I thought you had woodchips.
Wes Dunsmore: The school wanted woodchips because they didn't want the
kids dragging sand in... Woodchips get a heavy rain and they're gone...
Hasek: Larry, have you ever tried shredded hardwood bark? It's the bark
and not the tree?
Schroers: For a playground surface?
Hasek: Yes. It's something that we just started using in landscaping and
the reason we did is because it's, I mean you're talking about fiber here.
It's like you take the bark of a tree and literally just pull it apart so
you've got all this sinuey, stringy stuff. You put it in place, tramp it.
down and water it and you can water the heck out of it and it won't
disappear on you. We've actually used it in places where we have
'ownspouts going through this stuff out onto the sidewalk and get buried
1n the wash.
....."
Schroers: Where's your source?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 43
,...
Hasek: Minnesota Valley I know sells it but it's not a matter of asking
for woodchips and it's a lot more fiberous. than that. You get chunks in
there that are literally, it's like taking the bark of a tree and just
pull it apart.
Boyt: We were talking about something like that, something that
intertwines.
Schroers: That's the bottom line right there. Fibar also claims that
they have had falls from as high as 10 feet into their system without
injury. But people have also fallen out of 2 story buildings and come up
a little bit rattled but uninjured so I don't know if that really says
anything or not. The thing, and I don't know how much, if you ran into
this at all Wes, but with the buckshot and the pearock, that sort of
thing, if you have an incline, you have a problem. Unless it's flat, it
won't stay in place.
Wes Dunsmore: We have problem with sand too. Basically you try to slope
them a little bit so just like that green material you have, you want the
water to run away. Any amount, it all depends on the location I guess.
Any amount of moisture will move anything but you've got to have something
~ecent because lawsuits, that's just...
Schroers: That's something that you and I, being involved with bigger
systems are really aware of but that's something that the City here just
seems to, you it hasn't I guess up to this time been much of an issue.
Sietsema: It has been a concern and that's why we went to the buckshot
because we thought what we had before wasn't adequate so we thought we
were being concerned and we were addressing the issue but then that
article came out and said buckshot was not good.
Schroers:
buckshot?
Yes, then there's the problem define buckshot. What is
To Wes it's 3/8 inch. It might be just course sand.
Sietsema: Then what do we have? I don't know what we have.
Hasek: Then why don't we just keep abreast of this.
Schroers: I think there's going to be more information. This is
something that seems to be a pretty hot item right now or hot issue so
there should be new information coming out and if we can just keep our
eyes open for it.
Sietsema: If you get a report back in October, if you could share that
with me, I'd sure appreciate it.
,.....
chroers: I will try to keep on top of that.
Boyt: I just thought of another thing for the budget. Do we have enough
bleachers for our ball diamonds? They've been asking for something, girls
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 44
-'"
softball.
sietsema: We ordered some.
Boyt: Did we order enough? Did we get enough?
Sietsema: We got one for each field. I ordered one for each field at
Meadow Green Park and now we have one for each field at City Center.
Boyt: Is one enough?
Mady: I think so.
Sietsema: Tell me how many paren~s are out there? Do you know?
Boyt: I don't know.
Mady: One of the problems, in just driving through the city this last
week after the snow was gone, just a comment for Dale. As soon as he can
get out and sweep off the trails and sidewalks that we have out there, as
soon as they're dry. The one I saw specifically was on Lake Drive East.
~t's just a glorified mess and I saw some kids out there riding bikes and
Nalking. They were walking out in the middle of the street because it's ...""",
the only place to walk so as soon as he can get that done.
Hoffman: Again, most of the maintenance on all sidewalks is specifically
public works and not park maintenance.
Mady: Whoever needs that comment I guess.
Boyt: I have one thing. I guess City Council's going to meet Saturday
and interview?
Sietsema: Yes. I've got some announcements after you guys.
Boyt: I would like them to look at our criteria that we used in our
selection process and then if they see parts of it they want to use. I
don't know if they've worked out their own set of criteria in choosing a
commissioner. No where on our criteria was sex one of the important
things. I don't think it should be. I think there are so many other
important attributes that some people have.
Hasek: I was at the last interviews and what the Council did was to
select on a question, each individual selected a question they felt was
important to ask each of the applicants and they asked the same question
of each applicant.
~ietsema: I've got a couple of updates. Just to clarify what Sue was ...""",
talking about. The Park and Recreation Commission had recommended that
the last two finalists of the last go around for the applicants be
considered to fill Carol's position. One of the councilmembers nominated
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 45
iJIIfI"',
Jan Lash and there was a second. And another councilmember nominated Wes
Dunsmore and there was a second. What they did was to set up a meeting
for Saturday morning to interview Wes, Jan and Mike on Saturday morning
since Jan hadn't been interviewed before. So they're going to interview
all three of them on Saturday and make a decision and I will include our
list of criteria with the packet that I send to them so they can review
that.
Hasek: Okay, I guess just for the record. Out of all of the candidates
we had, what was it that was suggested about Jan Lash?
Sietsema: She's a woman. Councilwoman Dimler thought that a woman should
be replaced by a woman. Additionally, her reason for nominating
Janet was she liked what her application stated as far as, I can't
remember the exact wording but that she knew that the Commission was a
recommending body and she felt that she would listen to the Council and to
the citizens of what they wanted. And she felt she would follow direction
of the Council and she felt that was an important thing for a commissioner
and that was part of her reasoning. So what I heard them saying last
night, also then other reasons what the people that were supporting Janet
were that they were replacing a Greenwood Shores resident with a Greenwood
~hores resident so their area would continue to be represented.
~ady: The Chan Estates is not represented. North Lotus Lake area is not
represented. There are a lot of areas in the City that are not
represented.
Hasek: Minnewashta Heights. Minnewashta Lows.
Boyt: To me they want to look at who would benefit us the most as a
commission rather than them as a council. We could use the expertise of
Wes Dunsmore. Everything we need.
Schroers: Is it appropriate for us to make comment regarding this to the
Council right now? Are we out of line?
Sietsema: They won't see these minutes until after Saturday.
Boyt: Would you send them a memo though?
Robinson: I think this is specifically what they asked us not to do
though.
Boyt: But that doesn't mean that we can't do it.
Robinson: But we asked for their philosophy and now we're not accepting
it.
~
ady: No, that's not true. We asked for their philosophy so we had it.
Hasek: There's just two points I guess in their consideration of a person
from Greenwood Shores. Larry Schroers lives within 200 feet of Greenwood
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 46
---'
Shores. Is that not close enough? He's within the circle of the
neighborhood of that park so I guess he is representative. I think
Greenwood Shores is represented. The second point is that we did have a
representative from that neighborhood on this commission who was asked to
step down because she happen to be on two commissions. I guess I don't
understand the logic behind some of the comments that the Council is
making. I guess in the spirit of cooperation, I don't see where the
cooperation is coming from the Council's standpoint. It seems like
every time we turn around, they're butting heads with us at this point too
and I just don't understand it. I fail to see any logic in it whatsoever.
We probably have other issues we should get onto. I guess I've got one
related to that. Is it possible for the general public to have the copies
of the Minutes from that meeting?
Sietsema: The Minutes will be available the Friday before the next
meeting.
Hasek: Before their next meeting?
Sietsema: Our next meeting. Saturday there won't be the Minutes.
Hasek: What I want is a copy of the Council's Minutes from last night.
dietsema: They'll be available probably in a week. It takes a long time ---'
to type those minutes verbatim.
Hasek: Can I just request now that I get a copy of those in the mail?
Sietsema: Sure.
Schroers: Maybe rather than mentioning any names or anything like that,
if we could just send a memo to the Council and ask them to consider our
best interest as well as theirs in choosing a new commission person. We
need all the knowledge we can get. There's so much happening these days
with Park and Recreation and and the knowledge and experience that we can
get would certainly be beneficial to us.
Boyt: I think that sounds good. I think it should be pointed out though
that Wes has been here, to every meeting and that helps an awful lot when
we're talking about issues. The other people have not shown that
interest. They haven't been here.
Sietsema: If you want a memo, I need a motion and I need to know what you
want me to say. I can't construct this memo on my own.
Hasek: I would like to make a motion then that we would like to suggest
or I would like to ask the Park and Recreation staff to construct a memo
to the City Council to be submitted to them prior to the Saturday meeting,
)r at the Saturday meeting, from the Park and Recreation Commission that
would suggest that they" try to select a person for this Commission that
would be a person who could do the most for the Park and Rec Commission
and the Council. Is there anything else we want to add to that?
-tJIII
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 47
,...
Sietsema: What I would suggest, if I could, is that this go in letter
form from the Chairman of the Park and Recreation Commission.
Hasek: Wait a minute. That's a motion so we need a second.
Sietsema: The only reason I say that is that it should have a signature
on it and not mine.
Hasek: Maybe it should have the signature of all of us on it.
Mady: I think it's a memo from me, the way you've worded it is...
Sietsema: A memo is fine but I think that it should come from the
Commission with the signature on it other than mine.
Mady: Exactly.
Boyt: Second.
Mady: It should say that the Park and Recreation Commission has requested
that I send you this memo to outline our thoughts concerning the
~ppointment of a new Park and Recreation Commissioner for the vacancy left
~y the resignation of Carol Watson. Then go into what Ed had said.
Sietsema: So do you just want me to change this to direct the Chairman or
do you want to leave your motion and see what happens?
Hasek: Yes, we've got a second here. Just call a question.
suggesting that Jim's going to write it? Should write it?
Schroers: Maybe if the memo said that the Park and Recreation Commission
approved sending this memo and then just have Jim sign it.
Are you
Hasek: The motion's going to be on the record so you don't have to worry
about that.
Sietsema: The motion is, Ed moved to direct staff to write a memo to the
City Council before Saturday that they select a person to fill the Park
and Recreation Commission position that will do the most for the
Commission and the City Council.
Hasek: And then just put down to be signed by the Chairman. Still second
it?
Boyt: Yes.
,..
asek moved, Boyt seconded to direct staff to write a memo to the City
Council before Saturday that they select a person to fill the Park and
Recreation Commission position that will do the most for the Commission
and the City Council. Said memo is to be signed by the Chairman of the
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 48
......fIll'
Park and Recreation Commission, Jim Mady. All voted in favor except
Curt Robinson who opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 5 to 1.
Mady: We're down to the milfoil thing a little bit tonight. I guess
there's no further information available. I'd like to find out what's
happening. Can we put it at our next meeting? Maybe just a brief update
from Scott Harr. Maybe a memo from Scott because there's still a lot of
comments still coming out. Maybe as he's indicated, if he's willing to
come in and give us 5 minutes would be great. Another thing we covered
last night at our meeting, we talked about the rotating chair at our joint
meeting. There was really, the only concern raised was by the Mayor and
it seemed the rest of the Council was going to let us run our meetings as
we saw fit as long as they were legal so I'm looking, do we want to
continue and if so, who wants to continue on to be on the schedule?
Sietsema: Can I make a comment on that? It was my understanding that
really the only concern that the mayor had was when we have items that are
tabled and discussed later. That was his major concern is that when you
have the residents come in a second time, that there's a different chair
person. That that's confusing to them.
qasek: That can happen in the absence of the chair that was at the
~revious meeting anyway.
....,.,
Boyt: We recommended letting that chair continue on for the next meeting.
If there's an item that's continued we can continue the chair.
Mady: It happens very seldom for us.
Sietsema: So what I would suggest then is at the time, the normal time
that you appoint the acting chair person, that the verbage go something
like, seeing that there's no continued items from last time, I would move
to appoint so and so as acting chair. So seeing that there is, I would
appoint acting chair whoever was there last time.
Mady: I guess what I want to do then is go down to each commissioner and
find out if they feel comfortable enough to do it or not individually and
then get a motion.
Hasek: Wait a minute. A motion to what? We don't need a motion.
Sietsema:
rotation.
I do need to set a schedule of who is going to be through the
So you just want to start over again?
Mady: Sure.
Hasek: Then, Dawne do you want to chair for Carol Watson?
?ast that. Carol was the first one.
Let's move one
....",
Sietsema: Carol hasn't done it yet. It would have been Carol's turn
tonight.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 49
11"""
Hasek: Then maybe we'll just ask Dawne if she wants to do the next one.
If not, then we'll let her do the last one.
Erhart: That's how I would like to do it.
Hasek: So let's just go with the rotation we had last time. We can just
take your recommendation and make a motion to do whatever with the chair.
Mady: The only last thing I had was the letter to the Chaska Lions. Can
we earmark that money?
Sietsema: Sort of depending upon how much the Carrico property is going
to cost and how the bids come in on the trail. So we tentatively have put
it to either or both of those projects.
Hasek: When we look at the Carrico property, are we looking at the fair
market value for that?
Sietsema: Yes. If you will recall last time you approved the purchase of
basketball hoops for North Lotus Lake tennis court. We don't have that in
~he budget and I need a budget adjustment to do that and I would suggest
hat we take that out of the $10,000.00 that would have gone to the Bluff
~reek access and I need $1,200.00.
Mady: Word the motion, recognizing the request of the citizens of that
park, North Lotus Lake Park service area, we're willing to amend our
budget to demonstrate.
Hasek: No.
Sietsema: Recognizing what and did you really want that in your motion?
Hasek: That's fine.
Mady: Just put the request of the citizens on North Lotus Lake Park
service area.
Hasek moved, Schroers seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommends to adjust the 1989 budget to reallocate money from Bluff Creek
Access Road to North Lotus Lake Park for basketball hoops in the amount of
$1,200.00 per the request of the citizens of the North Lotus Lake Park
service area. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Sietsema: Do you want to set a date to go out and visit southern park
~ites' with AI?
ooyt: Yes.
Sietsema: What date?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
March 28, 1989 - Page 50
.......",
Schroers: Make it at his convenience.
sietsema: I'll call him and find out when.
Robinson moved, Hasek seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Lori Sietsema
Park and Rec Coordinator
Prepared by Nann Opheim
'-,
....""