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PRC 1989 05 30 PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING ,......MAY 30, 1989 Chairman Mady called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Sue Boyt, Jim Mady, Janet Lash, Dawne Erhart, Larry Schroers, Curt Robinson and Ed Hasek STAFF PRESENT: Lori Sietsema, Park and Rec Coordinator; Todd Hoffman, Recreation Supervisor and Don Ashworth, City Manager APPOINT ACTING CHAIR. Boyt moved, Lash seconded to appoint Larry Schroers as Acting Chair for the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Robinson moved, Mady seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated May 16, 1989 as amended on page 35 by Larry Schroers to change the word "politic" to "political" and the word "they" to "which". All voted in favor and the motion carried. ~?UBLIC HEARING: HERMAN FIELD PARK. Public Present: Name Pat & Ginny Hanily Betty & Ken Lang Marcia Schiferli Bruce & Patti Mackedanz Mary Jacobsen Don & Fay Dudyda Kelly Ziegler Dolores Ziegler William B. Evans James & Suzanne Senst Kate Kinnich Donna Bechthold Ivy Pettis Judy Hinklin Address 2660 Orchard Lane 2631 Forest Avenue 325 George Street, Excelsior 2840 Washta Bay Road 6341 Minnewashta Woods Drive 6451 Oriole Avenue 6480 Oriole Avenue 6441 Oriole Avenue 2701 Piper Ridge Lane 2820 Washta Bay Road 2750 Sandpiper Trail 2722 Piper Ridge Lane 2742 Piper Ridge Lane 6345 Minnewashta Woods Drive Schroers: The purpose 9f our hearing is hopefully to get some input from the residents to help u~ make a decision as far as the kind of facilities that you'd like to have in your park. Hopefully we can pass that onto City ,-.council and get some of the things that we'd like to have. Lori, would you :are to update us on this item. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 2 .....", Sietsema: Yes, a number of years ago a park plan was designed for Herman Field. Since that time there's been some problems with where the access road to the park would be. Consequently it's been put on the back burner and action on it has been delayed. Recently I'd gotten questions and comments from people in the area that are interested in seeing development within the park and I thought that I would present the plan to the people in the neighborhood and make sure that we get their input. Make sure that the plan is still a valid plan. So what I'll do is just go through what we have in the master plan right now and then take public comments. Herman Field Park is located, if Oriole Lane was extended and you went straight down, it's located right at the end of that park. It's just south of Minnewashta Heights and in that area south of TH 7. It would be this area right here. It's just to the east of the Piper Ridge subdivision. The original plan included, it was a playfield that would accommodate the topography and the layout of the property without having to do a lot of change and a real expensive plan. It included getting an access road into the park and providing a parking area, a play area, a picnic shelter, picnic area. At that point in time the original plan called for extending Oriole Lane and corning down on the east end. The picnic area and the parking area would be in this area. Then there would be a boardwalk across this wet area in here which would have a looped trail that would have different play stations for children. That would be a play and discovery type play field. Within that park also would be a small ballfield that would be for pick-up games, for neighborhood games or whether it be children or adults wanted to just go out there with people in the neighborhood or family reunions or company, it would be a place to go play -' but it was not designed to accommodate league play or any type of scheduled, organized games or activities. So that was the ballfield. All these different stations along here again are little play discover areas. That is in essence what was originally planned. There's a trail access that carne in from Piper Ridge and at that point in time there was a trail access that was planned to come in off the north side. Since that time, again the access road was a concern and we did a feasibility study on which would be the best way to come in from access. Off of TH 41 this way, down from Oriole Lane or in through Piper Ridge or off of the Forest Circle area. In doing so we found soil conditions were not that great out in the Oriole Lane and there was a development off of TH 7 and TH 41 which was proposed to do some street realignment, as you probably are aware and that didn't pan out for that to be an access for us either. So what's finally come down is to be the feasible place for access would be off of the north in this area down here being Herman Field. This is the current Forest Circle, Forest Avenue which after this point is a paper street. It's not in place to date but the right-of-way has been dedicated. It would require extending Forest Avenue, this length here, getting an easement through and putting parking in off from the north end of the park. That would put, if we go back to the plan, this area in here would now accommodate these facilities that are shown on this plan over here. That would go over here and we would have to do some switching around so the plan would need to be revised but in essence that's what was being planned. With that, I will leave the questions, comments, concerns. I would encourage people to let us know if there's a great need in the neighborhood-, that isn't accommodated with this plan, to let us know what that would be if it's different from what's here. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 3 ,..." Mady: Lori., the park entrance, the easements will actually come right between those properties? It kind of goes right down the middle there? Sietsema: It would be between lots, yes. Mady: And we already have a 15 foot wide easement there? Sietsema: There's no easements that I know of right now. Ken Lang: Each one of us owns a part of Lot 31. That's the dividing line here. Sietsema: So the Kenneth Lang's own this piece of property and Marcia owns this piece? Ken Lang: Right. Sietsema: So what we would do is have to get access, half of it off of each parcel probably unless one wanted to give the full easement on one piece. Schroers: Thanks Lori. I think at this time we'll open the meeting to ~Ub1ic comments. If you have a comment with regards to Herman Field, 'lease come up to the podium. State your name and address and we'd love to near what you have to say. Kate Kinnich: My name is Kate Kinnich and I live at 2750 Sandpiper Trail. What I'm interested in knowing is what is the proposed time line on the development of this park? What can we expect as it is being developed? Will we be able to use it as portions are being developed or how are the trails going to be laid and what sort of sequence if this has already been organized? Sietsema: Do you want me to respond to that? There is the funds in the budget set aside in the reserve for the development of this park. I don't know if it's going to cover the entire development but at least the first phase of getting access in. That could be done, we could pursue that this year because the money is allocated for that. Spend up to the $35,000.00 that's in the reserve. Mady: Who would be responsible for extending Forest Avenue? And then how do we go about obtaining easements? Sietsema: I'm not real sure. I could maybe defer that question to Don. Don Ashworth: I can't recall Lori when that was done, the feasibility study. Did we not do that as a potential 429 project? ~jetsema: I believe so, yes. Don Ashworth: That's my recollection. There would be benefit for that stretch of roadway from where it currently ends down to at least the Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 4 -' private drive area going into the park. Assuming that is the case, where there would be the ability to special assess the property owners on either side, that project would then be carried out by the City Council. They would have to update the feasibility study. Provide the owners with a notice of a public hearing. Allow for input. If the decision was made to proceed with the road as a public improvement, the City Attorney would be authorized to negotiate with the property owners to acquire the necessary easements. The easements would be obtained. The road constructed again as a 429 project. The Park Commission funds would then have to come into play where that roadway ended. If I recall correctly, it was only half way bringing it down partially as a public improvement and the other half as more or less a driveway that would be constructed by the Park Commission. You have to allocate whatever monies, again pursuant to a budget amendment request approved by the Council, but again that would come through the park monies. Boyt: So as far as the time line, we probably couldn't get started this year? Sietsema: We could get started with plans and specs and public hearings and that kind of thing. Boyt: Not with grading but we can get Mark in here to help develop a plan? Sietsema: Right. -' -Don Ashworth: One of the sad parts of the 429 project process is you try to get public input. State law is set up to insure that you go through the various processes. Unfortunately that means a minimum of a 6 month period of time from the day you say we're going to start it as a 429 project to the time that work is actually commenced. Not completed, until work is just started. Kate Kinnich: Excuse me, what is the 429 project? Don Ashworth: I'm sorry, that is the State Statute under which a municipality carries out the construction of a public roadway, public sewer and water, etc.. Betty Lang: My name is Betty Lang, 2631 Forest Avenue. We were talking just mentioning her assessments, we were under the assumption that we would have no assessments. That was the last thing that we heard. Has that been changed? Sietsema: I don't believe it's been decided either way. It would have to be decided by the City Council. Mady: If I remember right in these discussions, it was my understanding that we were kind of responsible for wherever the street ended up to getting it to the park. The City Council is going to decide how that street got extended. The park funds weren't going to be used to extend the~ street because the street belonged to the City, not necessarily just to the park... Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 5 ,...... Betty Lang: It wasn't? Mady: No. Betty Lang: That's what we were told. That was the only reason it was going in there. And I didn't quite understand, what is the consideration as far as using that as an addition onto the regional park? What has been done on that? Mady: The regional park belongs to, is totally separate from the City of Chanhassen. Betty Lang: I realize that but wasn't there consideration that the Herman Field could be used as part of the regional park? What has been determined on that? Sietsema: In researching the records, it was stated that if this was not used as a city park that it should go to the County as part of the regional park. Not it couldn't be sold off for development or something different than that. That was the stipulation that it was donated to the City but we haven't pursued giving it to the regional park because then it would not meet neighborhood recreational needs. ~etty Lang: How about, has anybody been down there recently to check out lhat it looks like now that the runoff is coming off from the development? Has anybody been back there to see what it looks like? It's wet. Very wet. I think these are some of the considerations that you should figure in on your funding. Also, where is the money going to come from to keep this park up? Who's going to pay for it? Sietsema: That will come out of the general fund for the park maintenance fund just as all the rest of the parks are maintained. Betty Lang: How about security? Boyt: That's the Carver County Sheriff. Betty Lang: up at 10:00? going to have security? Are we going to have a fence? Are we going to have it locked Is someone going to be down there to lock it up? Are we the same privledges the other city parks have as far as Sietsema: All I can say is that it would be run similiar to any other neighborhood park. We don't lock up every night neighborhood parks so it would be, the park hours would be 10:00 so if someone was in there and there was a call made, the Carver County Sheriff's Department would come in and kick those people out just as they would at Meadow Green Park or Carver Beach Park or Curry Farms Park but it's not like Lake Ann Park which is a community park where it's locked up. ,...... Detty Lang: Are we going to have fencing to keep our private property private? Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 6 ...." Sietsema: That would be a determination of the plan. It's not in the plan as it is right now. Betty Lang: Well, I think it should be considered. Thank you. Robinson: Excuse me, are you opposed to putting a park in there? Betty Lang: Not if we are protected. I mean we're the property owners that run up right against the park and I want to be protected as a private property owner. That's all I'm asking. Robinson: I see. I was just wondering if you'd rather have no formal park there at all. Betty Lang: I'd rather have it regional park. That way we have the fencing the same as the regional park has and we would still have our privacy. Also, I'm concerned about what type of assessments we're talking about and what they're going to plan as far as going through our property. Yes, I'm concerned. Boyt: So the assessment question is one that has been taken up at the council? Is that where the information would come from? Judy Hinklin: My name is Judy Hinklin and I live at 6345 Minnewashta Woods Drive. I'm not opposed to a park as long it's done correctly and that the ~ private homeowners are considered. And there isn't a fence back there now and I'm also concerned about having a fence back there so the people understand where the park and the private property meet. In the letter that was passed around to the homeowners it said that if the Herman Field did not become a private park that it would become part of the Minnewashta Regional Park. I guess some of my concerns are, if it became a part of the regional park, what would the County do w~th it? Would they just leave it as it is or would they actually develop it into the type of park that you're proposing? Schroers: We have no way of knowing what the County would do with it. Sietsema: I don't know if that should be looked at as something that is really going to happen. The only way that that would happen is if the City decided to abandon it as a park and I don't see that happening. Judy Hinklin: Well it should be looked at in a sense that the homeowners don't feel that the Park Commission is going to protect their security, then maybe that's the next alternative. That that's the best alternative for the homeowners is to let the regional park district have it see. I'm not opposed to having a park but I want it to be done correctly, okay. That's the concern and when I read the letter that was passed around to the homeowners, I was concerned because there were a lot of mistated facts in here. The maps that were handed out were not up to date and that's a concern to me because I feel if it's going to be done right, then everything has got to be presented to the homeowners exactly perfectly because otherwise you can't have people vote on something that's not right. ...", Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 7 .,.... If it's going to start out in the preliminary stages with incorrect data, how can anyone guess that by the time it's given approval, it's going to be done correctly. I want to know a lot of things. Some of the questions that I had just in going through the letter was, if it goes through the Minnewashta Regional Park, where would the access be and would there be any special assessments for that access? Would those homeowners have to deal with that? At that point, who would decide on the project and would we have a say to that? Are our taxes affected in any way? What does this do to the property value of the homes that are sitting adjacent to that property? Boyt: Wait a minute, what does what do to the property value? Judy Hinklin: Having a little park like that in there. Because you're talking about security. You're talking about the fact that there is possibly not a fenced in area, and that's a concern because you don't know where that property value ends and where the park begins. Boyt: I think that's one thing we've talked about before on the Park and Rec Commission is property value of land adjacent to parks is normally higher. That's one of the topics that comes up here. Judy Hinklin: Okay, if the park is done correctly. ~'oyt: I don't know what the criteria are. Judy Hinklin: Because it could be also a hazard. I want to know what the active playfield is. I want that defined. Is there going to be lighting? Sietsema: No. Judy Hinklin: Is that going to be guaranteed though? Schroers: Just because of the expense involved with lighting, that pretty much guarantees it. Mady: ...It's $60,000.00 to light a park. Judy Hinklin: Okay, so that brings me to another point. It's expensive to do this type of a project so is the City Council just going to do this because they've been given the Herman Field 13 acres? And if they do do something with it, are they going to do it correctly? Is there really funding available in order to do this project the way it should be done where the homeowners are going to be satisfied? You have $35,000.00 that you said that you've got built up as a reserve. How much is it going to cost to buy the access property from the two homeowners and have they given you agreement that they're willing to sell that to you and do you feel comfortable then assessing those homeowners for that roadway that you're going to put through their property that's now private? ,...... .oyt: It sounds like the access road is not part of the Park and Rec fund package. That will be coming from 429 funds, not from the $35,000.00. The $35,000.00 is just for the development of that piece of property. We Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 8 would like to hear what you would like there. If you would like to see fences, we would like to have that information. --' Judy Hinklin: I think that's a key point. I mean a couple of weeks ago we just had some young children go through there and cut down 9 trees on adjacent property to ours. These are young kids. They had no idea what they were doing. They just thought they were going to have a good time. That's 9 small trees on property adjacent to ours. If you put people in there that are public access and these people are going to come in and they're not going to understand where the property ends, watch the people. Another problem I have is fires. Last year we had a drought. It was very dry in there. If you put a barbeque area in there, who's going to patrol that? It sounds really nice but that's a concern to the homeowners that are in there. These are just some of my questions that I had just going through the letter. Concerns of the money. Boyt: Could I ask to go back to one of your points. You wanted to know about the active play area. We'd like to find out what you would like to see in an active play area. Judy Hinklin: I think it depends upon the assessment and what type of children you're got in the area. What are the age groups of those children and what are you going to put in there that are specifically for that age group and how much money is that going to cost to put in a play area specifically for 3 year olds to 12 year olds? A lot of the children play hockey. ....., Mady: Can I slow you down a little bit? The reason we're holding this public hearing is to find out what kind of age groups you have of children. We don't have those answers. That's why we invite the public in to find that information out. You live there. You know if you have predominantly young kids or if you have older children. We don't know that information. That's why we asked you to come in and tell us. Judy Hinklin: A lot of us people are new homeowners though and I don't think we know that either. I'm not really qualified to tell you what is really in there and then have you go by my opinion. Mady: That's why we hold a public hearing. Judy Hinklin: I have a 3 year old. I would like to have him have a little play area that he can use until he's 12 or 15, whatever. I know there are children living down the street from me that enjoy playing hockey. That's a baseball field. Maybe the children want a hockey field. I don't know and I think my concern is that if something is passed, that each one of the homeowners has got to be contacted and they've got to be given the opportunity to have a list and say these are the things that we need to know. I mean people don't know about these meetings. We had to call. The letter that was passed around to one of the homeowners was passed out by another homeowner in the area that was concerned about the project, otherwise we would never have known about it. ..."", Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 9 ,-.... Resident: We live right next to it and never got. The people who live right next to it never get the letter. Sietsema: You didn't get the notification of this meeting? Resident: That's all. the maps or anything. Just the notification, that's all. The new proposals. We didn't get Sietsema: Let me clarify the letter with the maps and stuff. I was contacted over the phone, someone wanted to know some answers to some questions. I jotted them down and I wrote back to her with answers to those questions. She ran it off and ran it around the neighborhood. I have a list of 4 pages of people's names on it that I notified people of meetings and that's where we try to present you with the information and get feedback from you. Judy Hinklin: See that's my concern I guess is that the people that are in the area aren't aware so if this is really... Sietsema: That's why we invited you here. Robinson: This is the beginning. This is the very first meeting. Mady: We don't have any decisions made yet. That's why we call you in and ~\sk you to give us input, not questions. Judy Hinklin: And you can't get adequate input if the people in the area aren't aware of the meetings. Boyt: Was this in the paper Lori? Was our agenda in? Sietsema: Usually it is. I'm not sure it was this week but I notified everybody in those neighborhood so they are aware of this meeting. Mady: We have 3 public hearings. We can't call everybody up or anything like that so the City does a mailing. Judy Hinklin: But you have to understand that this park is right in a bunch of homes and that's just what I'm saying is there's a lot of consideration here for that land and if it's going to be done right, then all of the people have to be notified. Sietsema: Do you know of anybody that was not notified of the meeting? That's my question. Judy Hinklin: My next door neighbor and he's right on the property. Sietsema: And who is that? ~1udy Hinklin: His name is Tom Hare. Sietsema: How do you spell the last name? Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 10 -' Judy Hinklin: Hare I think. Resident: How about the Livingstons? Don and Shirley Livingston, were they notified? Judy Hinklin: I'm concerned about cost... What is going to be proposed to the Council? Mady: That's why we're here. Judy Hinklin: No, but I'm just saying, this is why I'm telling you I would like to see as a homeowner what is going to be on the proposal. Boyt: Judy, what we do is we have a landscape architect come in. He knows how much we have to spend and the plan is designed around that. Judy Hinklin: How much is there? Boyt: $35,000.00. Sietsema: That's put away on reserve. That doesn't mean we're limited to that much. Judy Hinklin: Is that money allocated to any of the other parks? Like you mentioned that some of the other people want things done in their parks. -' Mady: The Herman family gave that money to the City for this park period. Judy Hinklin: The $35,000.00? Mady: That's where the money came from. Judy Hinklin: Can the $35,000.00 be used in one of the existing parks to upgrade that and possibly make it a better park or facility? The fact that there is that new shopping area that's going on the corner of TH 41 and TH 7. Is Oriole Lane then, is that going to be accessible to TH 41 or is that little street that's there, is that going to be cut off then? (There was a tape change during Lori Sietsema's response to that question.) Judy Hinklin: I guess when we moved into the house we were told that was a nature preserve and nothing would ever be done. Apparently that's the misfortune of having a real estate agent that wasn't familiar but I guess from the letter there was also some misunderstanding from the people that bought property on Piper Ridge and so now to know that I have to be a policeman for that property back there and the concerns I have for fires and things like that and not having it patrolled and not having fences up and things like that are a large concern of mine. Even though I would like to see a park go in there, if it's not going to be done correctly, I would rather have it given to the regional. ....", Boyt: I think we have a park patrol person in the summer. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 11 ,..... ~ietsema: We have community service officers that do a number of things and also the Carver County deputy would be aware that this is another neighborhood park and they would have it on their list of things to do. Betty Lang: From the information I received for every 8 hour shift and the population of 10,000 people so I don't think we can really more important things to do than patrol this today, they have one Chanhassen right now expect a patrolman. park. officer is about They have Boyt: One of the things we ask people to do that have those concerns is go to the Public Safety Commission and let them know they're concerned. Betty Lang: I have done that. Don Ashworth: I'm here primarily to listen because we've owned that piece of land for so many years. I wondered how we're going to be able to develop it but as one who was here and helped basically acquire the land, I can tell you that Randy Herman was very concerned in terms of trying to have a neighborhood park up in that area. He was distressed with the regional people and they weren't really paying a fair value, or at least what he thought was a fair value for his land so the City had interjected in that process in trying to really bring those two together. As a part of that, we had approached Metro attempting to have neighborhood park facilities, ballfield, skating, the typical types of things, included in ~hat metr.o park. We were advised at that point in time that you cannot do ,hat. The problem is one that as a metropolitan park, State funds are being put into that park for the entire metropolitan area. They are not funding a neighborhood park. It is not the state responsibility to provide local ballfields. Local skating areas. Local totlots. Other types of things that are typically a part of a neighborhood park. If the decision is made, I'm not saying that it should be but I mean at least understand that if the decision is made to give the land back to Metro, that it will be used for metropolitan purposes and will not be used for local purposes. So you could see, they would have to amend their comprehensive plan with the city. They file that. They've got a 5 year plan for what it is they hope to accomplish. Part of things that they are responsible for would be regional, nature walk areas, snowmobile trails, skiing areas, just preservation of lands, as you might see out in the Carver Park area. You would not again include local ballfields, local skating and those types of things. So understand that in making your decision. Schroers: I would invite that anyone that's concerned also to go around and look at the other neighborhood parks in the city and find out what you do like about them and what you don't like about them and write a little note or give a call in to the staff and let us know. Bill Evan: Bill Evan, 2701 Piper Ridge Lane. The neighborhood aspect of the park, how do we keep it as a neighborhood park as opposed to a more public park? Is that just a concept or is there a specific way to do that? ~chroers: It's basically just a concept. It's not advertised to the ~eneral public and there's no sort of a promotion to try to get people in from the outside. It's just a park for your area. It is of course open to Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 12 the public but generally unless you have something really special there like an excellent beach or something like that, mainly it's just used by the neighborhood because other people don't know about it and they have their own little parks in their neighborhood so it doesn't really attract a big influx of outside people. Bill Evan: Do I understand you correctly there's a couple of intended road access to it? ....." Sietsema: No. There were other access points investigated, researched. The only one that seems to be feasible, economically and due to the soil conditions is the one off of Forest Avenue so there will only be one way to get into the park. Bill Evan: Via a car? Sietsema: yes, via a car. Bill Evan: And what about pathways? I'm certainly aware of the easement of Piper Ridge because I live right there. Is there other pathways that are planned beyond that and if so, do you know how many of them? Sietsema: There was one when the original parking was off of the east end. There was a pathway planned off of Forest Circle through the north and then through the west off of Piper Ridge. Now I would assume that we may want to preserve part of the road right-of-way that was for Oriole Lane as a ~ - trail easement for the people up in that neck of the woods to get into the park so that would be another pedestrian way to get in. Bill Evan: So a couple pedestrian ways? Sietsema: Right. And there's no access off of the south end obviously because that's fenced for the regional park. Bill Evan: These walkways and paths, you go to school on other parks to determine the make-up of these walkways and paths in terms of how the adjoining neighbors are protected. How are they constructed and that type of thing. Is there any generalized way of thinking in terms... Sietsema: We have different, you mean as far as how it looks? The ideal is a bituminous path that goes into it. If that's not a feasible thing to do, we have like an aggregate base trail that goes through or some other way. Boyt: At Chan Pond Park right now we have it mowed. Sietsema: Right. Some of them are simply mowed accesses. Bill Evan: And I assume, this goes right along the property lines so be it. There aren't fences per se? In other words, I'm thinking in terms of foot traffic and debris and things of this nature. ....." Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 13 ,..., Schroers: I think there are a lot of things that determine it. We'd have to take a look at the situation and find out how heavily it's going to be used. How long it has to be and how much funds are available to put it in and there's a number of factors that actually determine what type of trail it is. Sietsema: You live in the Piper Ridge development? Bill Ev an : Yes . Sietsema: The Piper Ridge development is a small development. The access there is to serve the people within that development to give them a way to get to the park. So you're going to know who's using that trail because you're going to know your neighbors. It's not one that's in a huge development with 300 homes in it where there's a lot more people using it. The people that are going to use that access are going to be the people that are living next door to you on the other side and just down Piper Ridge Lane, whatever that name is, but it doesn't connect to another trail system so it's not like there's going to be a lot of traffic in that area. Bill Evan: I think it's hard to say. I think some people do feel that way but conceiveably from adjoining streets, I can see the kids cutting through the yards and coming up. It's only about a block off of Sandpiper so it really becomes a question of what the traffic is going to be and I was ~~ondering about that in terms of, do you do like traffic feasibility studies in terms of whether it's car traffic or whether it's foot traffic? Schroers: Yes, that is taken into consideration. Bill Evan: They actually do some type of study determination as to what they would project in terms of the foot traffic and automobile traffic? Schroers: Well we can actually write that in. In some cases it doesn't seem that it's a major concern and then in other areas in a more denser population it is. Mady: Maybe to alleviate your fears a little bit, about 6 blocks away is Chanhassen Pond Park. There's I guess about a 400 or 500 foot trail that runs through backyards. There are some residents who installed fences along their property line. A number of them have done nothing. Some of them put some plantings in there. I walk that trail fairly often during the year. I can't ever recall seeing garbage strewed around. Problems in any way. I know the kids who live in one house there have a skateboard ramp thing that they leave out there from time to time because it's nice bituminous and they have great fun with their skateboards but that's not a community park and it gets quite a bit of traffic through it. I can't ever recall seeing a problem there. I don't know of any complaints we've gotten there and it's been in existence for a number of years. ~ill Evan: You're referring to the walkway in the park itself? Mady: Yes. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 3~, 1989 - Page 14 Bill Evan: I'm referring to the easement. .....", Sietsema: That's what this is. Mady: The easement runs between, back yards abut to it. Each individual area is going to have individual problems because of the people who live there but that gets a lot of use and I just can't recall ever seeing a problem there the number of times I've walked there and I don't know of any concerns that have been raised at our meetings in the years I've been here. Bill Evan: Just one or two more, in terms of determining whether or not to do it, you go to us, the public and of course you're hearing from us tonight. I understand that. At what point in time do you determine that the majority wants the park? The majority has real concerns about the park and therefore will pass? When do we reach that conclusion in the course of events? Mady: From what we've done in the past, usually when there's a park plan there, like in Curry Farms, and we hold a public hearing, typically what happens is the residents come in and tell us what they want. A plan is prepared. Then the residents get called back in again to review the plan and make sure everything that they said is reflected on the plan so everybody agrees again, this is right or no, we need to do this. Once that point, then it goes onto council for approval. I can't recall in 3 years residents coming in and saying well, no we don't want a park. It just hasn't happened. ~ Bill Evan: How many do you have, just out of curiousity? Mady: Neighborhood parks? Bill Evan: Yes. Sietsema: 18. Boyt: I think 3 of us live adjacent to parks. Pat Hanily: My name is Pat Hanily. I live at 266~ Orchard Lane. I think a lot of the questions that come up is having an architect who originally designed the park for the people in the neighborhood and more or less stating what they want in there. I personally would like to see a tennis court in there if it could possibly be done. Is it possible, does the parks commission have the power per se to send out a survey and say one, do people want a park in there? Two, if they want a park, what amenities do they want in it and then turn around and plan a new plan out for that park for what the neighborhood wants? Boyt: I don't know if we would ever ask if they want a park or not because our parks serve Chanhassen and I don't think we've ever given parkland away. We're short on parkland in Chanhassen. We're trying to meet the needs of the entire community. I'd probably bet money that we wouldn't ~ give a park away. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 15 ,...... Pat Hanily: Then maybe some of the questions could be answered. For instance, the trail questions, maybe some people don't want the trailway system so that would be money ill spent on this. Could a survey of that type of done in a radius of that park of so many miles or such a distance to answer some of these questions for you to get you the background information you need and then go to the drawing boards? Mady: All that stuff costs money. Boyt: This is our cheap way of doing that. Pat Hanily: I'm talking about a mailing. Boyt: Yes, well this is our cheap way of doing that mailing. It would be easier if they would come in here and tell us. Schroers: Just like you said. You came up here and told us you'd like a tennis court. That's what we want to hear. We want you to get up and tell us what you want and we're going to write it down and then we're going to look at our master park plans and look at the area and how it relates to the rest of the city and along with your input try to make the best decisions regarding your park and pass that onto City Council. It already is a park, it's just not developed. ~ietsema: We have not ever in the past surveyed a neighborhood in a formal Nay like that. We have public hearings and that's the way we typically do - it. Pat Hanily: Could it be done through a simple mailing? Some people probably have some input on this that aren't here tonight. Mady: The problem is, we do it for your park, we do it for every park and it becomes a money issue. It becomes a City Council issue then. They have to find the money to do a survey. A survey's not cheap. They have to be statistically valid. They have to go to everyone and you have to count them all when they come back. Schroers: Do you have just a rough estimate of what the survey cost for a community center? Do you remember? Sietsema: The parks need survey that we did before? Schroers: Yes. Hasek: It cost us $600.00 just to have the form put together I think. Sietsema: I would have to look it up. I don!t know. Pat Hanily: What if somebody in the community did, and the neighborhood ~id a survey? Boyt: Yes. If Pat wanted to take a list around to all the homes and say what do you want and then bring it into us, that would be real helpful to Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 16 us or work together with some of your neighobrs. ......" Pat Hani1y: I would be willing to do that if I was supplied with a list of names of people that it actually encompasses in the radius. Sietsema: I can give you a list. Hasek: There are several things I guess in my mind like connecting the trail by trail of this park to other parks that are important from a citywide standpoint. You might not be so concerned about yourself getting to the park but it's part of an overall system and it's part of the City's comprehensive policy plan to connect parks to each other and also connect them to places like school grounds, downtown, other parks in other cities and so forth and so on and link up to other trail systems. Pat Hanily: Is this one linked into town? Hasek: This one isn't linked in yet, no. And the trail might end up being just on the street if there isn't an easement in place right now because it's going through an older neighborhood and there might be some real problems with that and it's not even something that's actually being addressed right now but it is part of the City's policy to link parks together. The linkage for this one might actually end up going through the regional trail if that is something that can be accomplished but it's something that we kind of kicked around a little bit. ....." James Senst: I'm James Senst, 2820 Washta Bay Road. I'm the president of Minnewashta Manor Homeowners Association. We have approximately 40 families in our organization. At our last meeting we talked about this park and it received a lot of support. You're looking for the make-up of our area. We have new families with children are newly born all the way up to quite a few retired people. The retired people like to walk so this trail system through the park would be very beneficial for them. Oftentimes they say they walk but they walk on the streets and if you've been in that area, it's hilly and it's curvy and some people have to be very careful when they walk. Also in the neighborhood it lacks a ballpark. The only way to get to a ballpark is either to cross TH 7 or TH 41 which is really tough on children until they're sometime in high school age. Schroers: I have a question about the ballpark. Can it just be a neighborhood ballpark? James Senst: That's what we're looking for exactly. Right now we don't have anyplace to go out and play ball. When I say play ball, I mean it's to pitch to my son so he can hit it. Because of the houses and other properties. This fellow over here in the suit, I want to tell you that we'll probably be coming down through your area. Bill Evan: I was just thinking that when you were talking. James Senst: But I don't want to mislead him to say we're going to walk all the way around to go in but you will see some new people going through ......" your area. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 17 ,...., Bill Evan: No doubt in my mind. Hear that Don? James Senst: Any other questions that you might have of me? I'm very wiling to help with this project. Boyt: Maybe you could work with Pat. Mady: We'll try to accommodate you. Obviously if it's a wetland, has some wet spots, we might be able to fit it all in but we'll certainly try. Resident: I don't think it normally was a wetland. I think a lot of that carne with the development on TH 7 and TH 41. Hasek: That's always been a wetland. Sietsema: Not the whole thing. Hasek: Is it real bad right now? Resident: I just walked back there today. Schroers: Is it standing water or do you have erosion and mud? ~esident: It's standing water. Hasek: When I first started on this commission about 2 years ago I think it was now, Herman Field was the first one that carne in. I drove down there and I got my vehicle stuck in the mud right up to my hubcaps so it's historically wet in that one corner. I know maybe it's wetter this year than last year simply because last year nothing was wet. I think the drainage from that does go down through there doesn't it? That's where it's supposed to go. Resident: Yes and they have changed obviously the lay of the land up there so it is going to affect it more. Ken Lang: I want to state one thing. I'm not opposed to the park. My name is Ken Lang. I live at 2631 Forest Avenue. We own this property here up to here. I'm opposed to extending the road for the simple reason, if we're going to have to bear the brunt of that road meaning the Lang's and the Will's, I don't think it's right for the rest of the neighborhood. I'm not opposed to the park. I just think if it's going to be a neighborhood park and that's what we're saying it's going to be, why can't we just have a path in that end and a path in the other end at the ridge area? And one other thing, we've owned the property for 15 years. The road now ends here. Probably from my house to here I'll bet is probably 300 feet. Okay, the Livingston's live right over here. There's one house here. What I'm trying to say is, most of the houses are a long ways away. When we first ~oved in, this road the blacktop ended here. This road, it was accessible lown into here. Okay, the kids were down there every weekend. Not kids, everybody. Partying with beer cans, the whole works. We complained so many times that the city finally just filled this up with fill here so Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 18 nobody could get in there anymore. We have the problem once in a while down here at the end of the road, not very often but I'm just want to make you aware. I'm sure that's what's going to happen if that road gets extended. It's a long ways from any houses. The next closest houses are way over in here. Way over here on the other side. Once again, I'm not opposed to the park but I just want to state that. ...."" Boyt: Can we answer your question about parking a little bit? Ken Lang: Sure. Boyt: We have historically asked for parking to be available in our neighborhood parks to make them accessible. They're not handicap accessible if it's just a little trail going in there. Ken Lang: Okay, how many neighborhood parks are that secluded? Have you been out there? That place is really secluded. It's a long ways from any houses. Schroers: Do you feel that you wouldn't need a parking lot there? Ken Lang: Well if it's going to be a neighborhood park and people, the neighborhood isn't that big. Schroers: But if you were going to have a family picnic or something, you wouldn't want to be able to drive in to unload your picnic materials and ...."" that sort of thing and have your friends have a place for them to park? I think that was the whole purpose of extending that road. Ken Lang: I can see that. Naturally I'm opposed to extending the road. There was a proposal, this Herman Park has been brought up for 7-8 years now. I'm sure it was last year or the year before, somebody from the City stated that they would bear the brunt of the cost for just a Class V gravel or something down to this portion right here. We don't want the road developed. We've owned this property for 15 years. They've owned it for longer than we have. If we were going to develop it, it would have been developed by now. I've got 3 acres here and I don't know, we don't want the road to go in. I don't think it's right that we should pay for the road to be developed for a park that we could just extend it in gravel so that we don't have to pay the assessments which is going to be tremendous. That's a long ways down there. Hasek: I guess I tend to agree with you. If it doesn't have to be done, it doesn't have to be done. Lori, is there something that says that that road has to be tarred all the way in? Could it be just a gravel surface from the existing road in and put the base in for a future tarred road? Sietsema: I don't know. Hasek: Is that going to be assessed just against the abutting property owners then? ......." Sietsema: In a typical 429 project, it would be. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 19 IfI""" Hasek: So it's the affected or the benefitting property owners then? Boyt: There was a ,road that just went in off of Lyman that was not improved, it was just gravel because that's what the neighbors wanted, Sunset Trail. That's an option. Mady: From what I understand how this whole thing proceeds is the road question or who pays for what really doesn't corne from us. We don't have any responsibility in that area. Ken Lang: I think that's a consideration for 2 people to bear the brunt of it. Mady: It's a good question and obviously will have to be handled at the Council that looks and reviews this issue... Me personally, I would like to somehow the ability to have a few parking spots built in the park and a gravel road is fine. Ken Lang: I just want to make one more statement as was stated before, maybe we should take a survey of the neighborhood as far as, you know some people mentioned hockey rinks, ballfields and everything. I think you have to consider, we're in the Minnetonka school district. The Minnetonka ~chool district has a tremendous sports program. Hockey, organized , :aseball, football so from that standpoint I think if we're going to have a neighborhood park it should be more for trails, tennis courts, things like that rather than, I mean you're talking a lot of expense for a hockey rink and things like that. Mady: The hockey rinks have typically been in our community based parks because they need more... Marcia Schiferli: I'm Marcia Schiferli and please would somebody correct my name on that map. I haven't been Marcia Will for 5 years. I would like it corrected. So anyway, I'm the other property owner and I have the same concerns the Lang's have as far as the policing and fencing. What I would please ask you if there would go down there... I have parcel 31 and 32 which runs right along the park there, Herman Field and right now I have lost I don't know how many trees and there's been beer parties and crap going on back there on the lower part of that property which is way far away from the highway, TH 41 or TH 7. Where the kids park to get down in there I don't know. I've never caught anybody back there but it is one big mess. I've had some trees cut down that have been this big around and if there is no fence put up along there, I won't have anything left on that piece of property unless there's some boundary of some kind so they know where to go and where they shouldn't go. I'm also concerned about the policing. I think it's like the hole in the donut. It's surrounded from all sides where people can't see what's going to be going on down there. ~chroers: I can respond to that, I think previous experience has told me .hat, I've seen a lot of areas lik~ this that have...generally tend to have a little more respect for a park. I'm not saying that you won't have any problems like that but they tend to vandalize a lot less. I think a park Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 20 would help that rather than to make it worse. ...""" Ivy Pettis: It's so secluded it's hard to see. I live really in close and we can't see down there. Schroers: If you have a concern, we would really appreciate it if you would corne to the podium. Ivy Pettis: I'm Ivy Pettis and I live at 2742 Piper Ridge Lane. You look back there, it's really low and far away and I living there would not be able to tell what's going on. I have 3 small children and I'd be scared to let them go down there because, even though I'm this close to it, it'd still be a really long ways to go. The thing with the other houses that live nearby, it's really secluded. Boyt: I don't think we encourage parents to sends kids... Ivy Pettis: No, but you wouldn't be able to see what's going on down there even if you live next door to it but it would be really easy for them to go down there. Resident: A quick question, that $35,000.00, is that to be spent with development of the easement walkways as well as the actual park property itself? Mady: That's yet to be determined. ...""" Sietsema: It could be. It's for park development. It's for Herman Field park development. Resident: But could it include pathways to it? Sietsema: Right. Resident: The reason I ask it is because it's such a long ways, at least from our street to the beginning of the park and I'm wondering what the easement looks like... Ginny Hanily: I'm Ginny Hanily. I live at 2660 Orchard Lane and I guess on the same idea, I would like to see a park developed back there also but I prefer to see a tennis court but with the access trails and other things that are proposed, tennis courts or ball fields or whatever, $35,000.00 is really a small amount of money and I'm just wondering where you get, what other funding do you have after the $35,000.00? Sietsema: The $35,000.00 is not the total that we have. That's the money that's already earmarked for that piece of property. If park development should go higher, that money would come out of a park development fund. Park development and acquisition fund that the City has set up. The money that's in there is from park dedication fees paid by developers that develop land. ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 21 ,.... Ginny Hanily: So the money that's in there is assessed to like property owners when they first purchase? Sietsema: At the time that the building permit is submitted, there is a park dedication fee that is applied to that and that goes into the park dedication fund. Ginny Hanily: So more money could be allocated to like finish off a park down there? Sietsema: Right. Mady: We could never make any promises. I mean our 5 year budget... Ginny Hanily: But you'd have to begin with a plan, obviously a feasible plan. Schroers: And it normally goes in phases. We determine what the first need is going to be and that will be Phase 1 and we try to get that going in and then as money and time and all the other things allow, we eventually get the park developed. Ginny Hanily: So this could be a long ways down the road? ~Iasek: Until it was totally completed it could be. Boyt: But there might be a totlot in there in 2 years or a tennis court or there might... Ginny Hanily: And you made a comment at one time that things probably would not able to be started for at least 6 months? Sietsema: If the road goes in as a public improvement project. If that Forest Avenue extension goes in. That's a 6 month timeframe to be approved and get all the public hearings done and the plans and specifications and all the requirements that go along with the public improvement project. Ginny Hanily: But if there were just pathways, say then that could be even a lesser time before things started? Sietsema: It could be. We have to get the plans finalized for the park. This plan is the plan that's been approved to date. Any changes to this plan have to be recommended to the City Council and they have to approve any amendments and changes to the plan. Then at that point then we would determine what's going to be done first. Like if the access road and tennis court is going to be done first, then you'd have plans and specs prepared for those improvements and bids have.to be advertised. I mean you have to go through that whole process so I would, optimistically I would say that the soonest, at the most optimistic schedule, the soonest you ~ould see park improvement there would be next summer. The plans and specs lnd the paperwork and all that stuff could happen this year but the actual breaking ground and getting in there probably wouldn't happen until next year at the earliest. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 22 ...",,; Ginny Hanily: Okay, and as far as the people that live in that area. It's just a diverse and ever changing thing. Right now there are a lot of little kids in the area like elementary school age but I've been there for probably about 11 years and have seen that change about 3 times but it's mostly right now I'd say a younger neighborhood. Hasek: There's another point to be made too. If you think about the 6 month timeframe that it takes to put that road together, we're already in June of this year, if you can imagine postponing things for another 6 months because of a lack of decision, you're already...something happening in there next year. Pat Hanily: Could you give us an idea of what the boundary lines constitute "the neighborhood"? Hasek: One half mile radius around the park. Sietsema: There's some physical boundaries there too. I would say within TH 7, TH 41, Lake Minnewashta and the Minnewashta Regional Park is the service area. Hasek: And I'd say Sterling Estates is probably out of it too because of that break that's in there. That little channel. Pat Hanily: Well whichever comes first, the physical boundaries or that boundary. ......" Hasek: Like I live within a half mile of Cathcart Park but I don't consider myself within the radius of Cathcart or Freeman for that matter. TH 7 cuts me off. Sietsema: I guess what staff would recommend is that we ask the neighborhood to get together and gel their ideas and corne back to us with what they would like to see. If they like this plan. If they want to see some changes in it and what priorities that they have for park development. We could table any action now and when we get that back from them, we can proceed with amending the current plan. That puts it back on you but we need to know from your neighborhood what you want. If what's already on the plan isn't it. Hasek: Lori, would the way to do that is just to hold the public hearing open until next meeting and give them 2 weeks. Is that enough time? Sietsema: I would schedule this for the 26th. That's the 4th Tuesday of June. Hasek: And just hold the public hearing open? Sietsema: Right. ""-" Boyt: Do you need a motion? Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 23 ,..... Sietsema: I just need a motion to table action and direct the residents to come back to us at the end of June. Mady moved, Hasek seconded to table action on Herman Field Park until June 27, 1989 so the neighborhood can get input. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Mady: road? Lori, can you also check with Gary Warren about the road, a gravel How that can be done. Hasek: Are you going to be contacting all the people or just the representatives here? Sietsema: What I'd like to do is find out who is going to find things out so when I get questions, I can di~ect those people who have interest to you too so we have some communication back and forth. You can tell me what you're finding out and I can tell you what we're finding out and together we can come back at the end of June with some clearer direction. Boyt: James and Pat? Pat Hanily: It's a deal. ~ady: Can I ask one other thing of you too? Somebody mentioned there were ~ome mistakes or errors in the information that was made available to the - neighborhood. Please let Lori know what those are so she can provide, or at least get the answers to that. We obviously need the right information whatever it is. Betty Lang: I only have one more comment. I'd like each and everyone of you to take a little hiking tour of Herman Park. Schroers: Okay, thank you very much for coming. hearing is closed for tonight. The Herman Field public DISCUSSION OF PLAYGROUND EQUIPMENT PURCHASE AT CITY CENTER PARK. Sietsema: This item was tabled. The last time that you discussed it we had representatives from the school here and from APT and no action was taken as to whether we should spend any of the $40,000.00 pending the decision of the community center task force as to the location. Community center task force had to table any action and proceedings due to the Eckankar application because that clouded the issue as far as where the location of the community center was going so I couldn't bring it back to you in April because I didn't know anything more. I still don't know anything more except the school has some money and they need to move on spending that on playground equipment and playground surfacing and they ~ant to know if we are part of this. If we're going to do something . Jointly or not. I think maybe we'll just let Kathleen make a presentation as far as where they're at in their process. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 24 Kathleen Macy: First I don't know all of you here. Kathleen Macy, principal of Chanhassen Elementary School this past year and for next year. As of last week, Lori knew more than you might know, the Chanhassen APT had to decide to purchase the equipment. They're hoping that...for that equipment. If they go with Gametime Equipment which is a firm out of the southeastern United States, they will get a $10,000.00 for $15,000.00 worth of equipment because of this time due to cash and the timing that we would purchase it. We are working also with the school architect which is EOS Architects out of Excelsior to talk with them about what's appropriate under...to this kind of equipment. There was some suggestion that we should put in an underthing called... Since talking to Lori, there's been some problems with that. It's incredibly expensive for an area that would take the northern end of the school, that's sand right now. Where we would put new equipment it would cost $15,000.00. It's more expensive to put in the chips and the geotextile fabric and the rock than it is to put in the new equipment. So what's going to happen is I'm hoping that the City or the parks would be interested in helping us put in the equipment that will be part of the park for the community as well. The equipment that we're putting in will be at least 30 x 32 feet. It will have areas for the younger children and the older children as well. We need to have assistance. The parents will put in all the equipment. The school will buy the supervisory time that you need to have in place and we can also... the liability that goes along with this equipment. We need some assistance in just cleaning the area off and then what we're going to put on top of the ground once we get the playground in. We will provide, the parents will provide all of the work with the exception of I think we need a post hole digger. That gets expensive. The equipment, if they haul it in and do it it's much more expensive than if we assemble it here ourselves so I'm wondering if the City would be willing to put some funds into that knowing that it would be also used by the City. Hasek: Funds to the underlayrnent and the post hole digger or something... -" '..., Kathleen Macy: Assistance in getting, we have to get the old equipment out. That takes bigger equipment than we have. We can't dig it out. We need some of it lifted and remove some of it. Sietsema: So specifically, if I could just summarize, then you're asking for some park maintenance assistance in scraping out what's there? Taking out of the old equipment. Kathleen Macy: Right and putting holes in for the new equipment. Sietsema: Digging the holes. And then also some money? Kathleen Macy: Yes. If we can get something to put on the ground. Now I haven't had time to get all the stuff from the architects to find out what is now acceptable material to put underneath playground equipment. The fiber system in Wayzata that went in, I think it was like $16,000.00. The geotextile fabric is working it's way up from the bottom and corning up the top which means that that system isn't working as well. The architect has more favorable results with just using woodchips. Finer than the big ~ chunks of woodchips and has also had some pretty good luck with kind of a Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 25 ,..... pea gravel but I know that the school, courtesy of legislative funding is getting it's own particular kind of situation. Not being able to contribute much to it but I can provide the supervisor. We can organize all of the parents to help get it put in so... Sietsema: So do you have a dollar figure that you're looking for? Hasek: You don't have a dollar figure because you don't know what the underlayment is going to cost? Sietsema: Have you made a decision on what you're going to put down? Kathleen Macy: No. We were going to try to get like a pylon system but in fact, even though there's some, and I'm not even sure if it's federal legislation... That system is not holding up. There's no sense putting in that kind of money underneath any kind of playground equipment for children if it's not going to hold up. We'd be better off going with that kind of washed, smooth gravel... Sietsema: I was under the impression that you had told me that the buckshot wasn't acceptable. Kathleen Macy: I guess if you talk to the company that's selling fibar, it's not acceptable. If you talk to the architects that are building the ~quipment and putting it in, they... Sietsema: The more information that I'm getting from the professionals and from the people that are doing the studies is that we read the one report that said buckshot and sand was not. Well that happened to be written by someone who sells Fibar so that negates part of the validity of that report but they're telling me also that the depth is as much, if not more important than the surface. So the buckshot is being accepted but it has to be a 12 inch depth rather than the 6 to 8. Kathleen Macy: And we cover an area that's about 84 x 64 because what we would do ideally is to take some of the equipment that's real positive, the stuff that the kids use and it's quite smooth and it's metal and it's been there for a long time. It's going to last. When the kids walk on it, I don't even know what it's called anymore because there is no such thing anymore but they walk on those pipes and they're real smooth and the kids like to be on them. They're cool in the summertime. They like to roll on them. You take the tower down and we're moving some of this equipment to one side or the other. The playground the parents are thinking of buying, it's between two right now, is expandable and they would put it in an area so it could be elaborated upon. Also we know if there's a...we may have to take that down and move it and it's okay because the most optimistic kind of future for, if it was passed tomorrow would be maybe 2 years or 3 years down the line so we know that that would be a consideration as well. So we're asking for some park help in having the equipment so we can level the ~rea after we move the equipment out. We need the equipment to dig the , loles and then we would like some help in getting the pea gravel, if that's what we finally decide is most appropriate. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 26 Hasek: Can we take just a second and try to put some numbers on this. The-' pea gravel, if I calculate right, is 200 cubic yards you're going to need to put in that area. That's about $2,000.00. Kathleen Macy: That is more of a guesstimate. We've got railroad ties but I think we'd want to frame that into the exact size that we want. It's right up to a path. Hasek: So we don't need to provide the ties, they're going to be sent by somebody else? Post holes and equipment... Sietsema: No, I don't think we need to as far as our budget goes. Hasek: How about leveling? Sietsema: I think that I could and park department to do this. they're really backed up but if this to the priority. get commitment from the street department My only concern is time. It's like this becomes a priority for us, we can move Kathleen Macy: We have several factors...parents and children in the area ...all sorts of building, we need the equipment more than we need the personnel. If we have someone there from the City that says it's okay that they're there to use the equipment then that's alright. We have person who will help us clean the area out. In fact, we may be able to get the people to...city's diggers and we need somebody there to use the equipment. -,' Sietsema: The diggers and the equipment have to be run by city staff but I don't think that that would be a big problem for us. I think between the street and the park maintenance department, that we can get that. I don't think that that's a big problem. Kathleen Macy: Our timeline, we think that we would be able to do this probably the first part of August. It's going to take a while, it takes a long time to process. It costs about $600.00 to get it shipped to us if we buy this from southeastern United States. There's another company in Delano that also has some of the equipment and we're now investigating there to see if they will also... Sietsema: Is that Earl F. Anderson? Hoffman: Playtime? Kathleen Macy: It may be Playtime. The other one is Gametime, the one that we were looking at. It seems like when you get down to it, in working with the architects, all of the things above the ground pretty much pass the same requirements. The question is where do you want color and if one piece is colored and... There's some of the Gametime equipment sitting above the Fibar system...but then I pay for the supervisor to corne and watch it being put it so it's put in right, and I can do that. I just can't buy the gravel and make sure that I have all the equipment there to ~ lay it down. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 27 ",.... Schroers: There is a safety standards commission or task force or something of that nature that is currently studying playground surfacing materials and is suppose to be putting out the results of their study in October. So if you invest a large amount of money in playground surfacing right now, it's possible that they would come out in October and say that these are the new standards for surfacing. Kathleen Macy: I've just found out in the past 2 weeks in terms of who you talk to about what's standard. What's good and what's not good. What's okay... I'm not sure there is a definitive answer. Maybe there will be in October. That's why I pretty much backed off from the idea of having to do a Fibar system... More like gravel. Not sand. The sand gets quite hard. Schroers: It's pea rock. Kathleen Macy: But pea rock and they'll get it in their clothes but I don't think that it will get so that it hurts anybody. Sand is worse because it packs down. Schroers: They all have their advantages and disadvantages. Pea rock tends to not stay in place very well. If you've got a flat area it's okay but like at the bottom of a slide it gets pushed out all the time so there's quite a bit of maintenance involved in keeping pea rock or buckshot. There's a definition problem there too as far as what is pea ~ock and what is buckshot but it takes more of a constant day to day or Neek to week type of maintenance on that type of a surface. Kathleen Macy: Than sand? Schroers: Than sand or then Fibar. Actually, a Fibar system if it was installed right and maintained right shouldn't be coming apart. There's something wrong there. Kathleen Macy: I know it was put in with their supervision. Schroers: That's interesting. Boyt: We toured a few schools and park playgrounds and one of the things we saw some of the equipment was put down in the ground too far so when the kids tried to play on it, the equipment was then too short for them and the swings didn't work. Sarah who we took to tryout the equipment was too tall and Sarah's short. I don't know who we would have there. Schroers: There's also a rubbery type surface that they're using it at, what's the indoor place? Edinborough and it was really neat in there but we're not sure about the four season application on that for outdoors, how that would hold up and it is also very costly. Like it came out to like $13.00 a square foot or something like that. ~athleen Macy: That's too much money. Hasek: Yes, that's only about $70,000.00. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 28 ....." Lash: You maybe noticed already that...put in their first phase of their playground and they did extensive research on it. They have an accident report on the equipment and they chose the pea rock and we haven't had any injuries. We haven't had any problems. I have never seen anyone go out there to maintain it. To move it around the slides and anything. I can guarantee you the custodian does not go out to rearrange the pea rock. And they have wooden borders surroudning it, kind of walkway thing that's kind of sand. It's not really sand. It's kind of orange. They do have a little bit of a problem with that, getting back and forth but I think that's because the timers were up just a little bit higher to keep them a little more separated, but we certainly have never experienced any problems with pea rock. Kathleen Macy: I know the architects have been out to look at that system too. Schroers: Okay, in order to accomplish something here, it would be nice to be able to work with the school but do we have funds available? Sietsema: You have $40,000.00 in for playground equipment that you could allocate $2,000.00, if that's what it would take for the buckshot to this project and rollover the rest of it for your extensive site that we're going to do on site. The other idea, and this was before I had all this information from Kathleen, was if we wanted to do it in a different location, was to authorize Mark to do a park plan that would show with community center, without and where that totlot equipment would go and conceiveably it would be in the same spot. Where the best place for it would be so we could move ahead with the whole $40,000.00 if we wanted to do that. ......; Mady: I have a question of Kathleen. Would we be adviseable to separate these, supposing that Chan Elementary remains to be a K-5 school. Are you better off keeping the upper grades, the 4th and 5th grades separate from the 2nd, 1st and kindergarten? Kathleen Macy: I think there almost has to be two separate types of playgrounds. I think that we're going to try to put some more equipment in for some of the older kids too... I think they're going to be real hard pressed to stay off of this. We certainly are set up to accommodate that size child as well but... Mady: The time lines for the project, the best thing is probably a year off because of needing the public to comment on the community center situation. So maybe to gear a second play area more towards an older group of children and as that comes to a conclusion, we'll be able to maybe pull the pieces from the unit that you're constructing that were more geared for those kids over to the other section... Kathleen Macy: And I think all of this equipment that we're looking at is disconnectable or may need some elaboration too so the person who's coordinating that effort with the parents is a woman by the name of ....", Debbie... I'm not too uncomfortable there with their looking through the equipment... I just know with $10,000.00 that they're putting in the Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 29 ,..... eqiupment, I know they don't have any extra money. If I buy the supervisor and the ties, I don't have any extra money. We need some help to make sure this happens. Boyt: I like the idea still of having Mark draw up two plans. I wonder at times if the community center task force is ever going to do anything. Mady: Oh yes. I'll guarantee there will be something done by October. Boyt: Well we've heard that over and over. Mady: Well we don't have anything stopping us now. Eckankar is done. Boyt: I'd like to see the plans so that we can start to work on some of this. Robinson: But would that say that we can't go along with her request then? Boyt: No, I think we can go ahead with this and use that equipment in our plans later on. Mady: The only problem with that is, how's Mark going to develop a plan based on a community going in there when we don't know where the community center is going to be? ,...., Joyt: We're asking him to do a plan without the community center there and I guess he'd have to work with you guys. You guys don't have any plans? Mady: Well we have thoughts but we haven't had any public meetings yet. The community center task force, when the Council asked us to meet here 2 weeks ago, more than one of us told the Council that we weren't real happy of the fact that we were forced to make a decision without having public comment. That's what our goal was all along in that whole process was we're not going to make a decision without public comment. Robinson: And if we did that Sue, I'm not sure what that would buy us. It's probably too late to get anything in there this year. Hasek: It just seems to me ludicrous even to consider that we're going to try and put a building on that site when we have no idea. There has to be concept drawings and everything. Why not simply go ahead with this project and if it happens to be in the way, when something else is done and it can't be worked around, then we'll have to move it. Robinson: Why do anything? Boyt: We've talked about having a new plan for City Center Park done and we've put it off for quite a while waiting for the task force to do something. I really did question whether or not they're going to do ~nything and I would like to see City Center starting to happen. We're Taiting on the community center task force. Jim says they're going to start meeting soon. Maybe we should wait a while. What if they don't start meeting? Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 30 -" Sietsema: Could I make a suggestion then? The community center task force has done a lot of work and they know where it's not going to be. . They know it's going to be on one end of the school and not the other so given that, given the concept, I can give all that base information to Mark and say if a community center is built in this location, whereas the best place for playground equipment. If it's not, whereas the best. It may happen to be in the same spot regardless of where the community center is and we can go ahead but we're going to have to know where the fields are going to be before we go ahead and buy it and purchase it and know what shape the area is going to be. If it's going to be next to what's existing there or if we're going to put it on the new 5 acres if the community center goes through. We're going to have to know that so what I would suggest is that we go ahead. I don't think that the school can wait for us to come up with a plan for how the City Center Park is going to be laid out and where the totlot equipment is going to be. The $40,000.00 worth of totlot equipment is going to be. I think that we can designate $2,500.00 for pea rock for them and some man power through the street and park maintenance. Direct staff to work with them and then we still have almost $40,000.00 to do our other site. In the meantime, go ahead and have Mark do the two plans because we don't know how long it's going to take the community center task force to come up with the decision one way or the other. They still have to hold public hearings but we can still proceed with our plans for the park. And the process, the public hearing process for plans on a park, the change and you know how many times we say, well we~ really would rather have it this way or that way, is still, the process is going to push us back so we're not going to be able to put the equipment until next year anyway. Hasek: How about if we do this? I think we should go ahead with the opportunity that we've got. It only makes sense to spend $2,500.00 now to get something that's worth a heck of a lot more than that. Why don't we have Mark go ahead and do the plan without the community center. If the community center never happens, then we've got a plan. If the community center happens, at that point then we'll have him work together with who's ever the architect and decide what's the best place to put it and not worry about a community center plan until we have a community center. I mean is there any reason why we should have to do that? We're not pushed this year to get that done but we'd like to have a plan so we can talk about a budget for next year right? Actually our budget is already set so what we'd like to be able to do is at least locate, if they happen to make a decision by the end of this year, we've still got time to change the CIP around, right? Sietsema: What I'm saying is that no matter what, we're not going to spend $40,000.00 at City Center Park to put in playground equipment without knowing, without having a revised plan to determine where it should be. And by the time Mark gets all the information, gets a plan on paper, brings it here, presents it to you, you guys rearrange it and send him back to do something different and he brings that back, then it goes to City Council for approval, there's no way we're going to get that done before August. There's no way. No way. It's going to take us all winter to work on the ~ plan for City Center Park so the soonest we could possibly put $40,000.00 worth of equipment in, regardless of how long it takes us to get it, is Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 31 ifIII"'" next year. Mady: Can what we do then is make a motion now so Kathleen can get her answer and she can go onto her other item. I'd like to make a motion that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to the Council that we authorize $2,500.00 of the $40,000.00 in our budget for pea gravel and the use of the street and park maintenance staff to level the existing play area at the school site and assist in any way possible to construct the new play equipment that is being purchased by the APT. Lash: I'll second that. Mady moved, Lash seconded that the Recreation Commission recommend to the Council to authorize $2,500.00 of the $40,000.00 in the budget for pea gravel and the use of the street and park maintenance staff to level the existing play area at the school site and assist in any way possible to construct the new play equipment that is being purchased by the APT. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Sietsema: Now do you want to direct a plan to start now or later or when? Do you want to take any action at all? ~asek: I still have a question I guess. Do you feel it's absolutely .lecessary to do a communi ty center plan? The reason I hesi tate to do that is, I got a phone call today from a guy that wanted me to give him an estimate of what his landscaping was going to cost. All I had was a piece of property with a building located on it and I said how the heck am I supposed to give you an estimate when I don't know what's going to be there? I need an estimate so I can kind of plan ahead and I said okay, give me $20,000.00 I think is the answer I said. Well geez, I only wanted $10,000.00 so I said okay, make it $10,000.00. I mean it's like you're playing a game and you don't know what's going on. To put a block on one end of that thing and say that you're going to design the whole thing makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and you're talking about a concept design, there's no point in going through that exercise. It's ludicrous to me until at least you've got some sort of conceptual idea of what that building's going to look like. Where it's going to go on the site. What the circulation is going to have to be like to provide for it so I don't see the point in spending the money. Boyt: We had some of that though. Hasek: You had but is it going to stay that way or is it I guess I would like to make a motion that we do a before community center there, with the assumption that maybe the won't happen and get Mark going on that one so we can work maybe get that one organized for next year. ~ lietsema: 10n't have that we do going to change? plan without the community center on that and I don't know if there's any immediacy in doing a plan if we to work with the school. The only reason I was recommending a plan now was so if we were going to spend the whole thing now, Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 32 ....., this year, otherwise my recommend now is to not do anything until we know more about the community center. Lash: That's my thinking too. I think it would be a total waste of money to do anything until we know what's going to happen. Boyt: When's your next meeting? Mady: That's the question I have for Lori for later on tonight. I'm getting pressure from other community center people to meet now. Lash: Is there a meeting scheduled? Sietsema: It's not scheduled but we're working on it. We were directed not to come back to the community center task force unless we have some land costs from the different site locations. For the piece on the north side of the school and for Eckankar property. Don's working with Peter Beck to come up with a cost and we still have not made contact with Hanson so I can't tell you that it's going to be within any amount of time. I can't tell you when it's going to be until I get that information and I can't tell you when they're going to come back with an answer to us. But we will not be meeting until I have that information. Schroers: Can we move onto the next item on the agenda? Hasek: Just a second. Can I assume that my motion failed for a lack of second then just for Robert's Rules? ...."" Sietsema: Did you make a motion? Mady: Yes, it did. CONSIDER LOCATION OF BABE RUTH BASEBALL FIELD. Sietsema: I don't know how much you want me to go into this. At the last meeting staff was directed to figure out how to put a really nice Babe Ruth facility at Lake Ann Park with the proper base lines. The proper fence lines. The proper backstop area. Dugouts if possible. They wanted a bonafide, standard Babe Ruth field. In working with Lori McRosti, it can't be done with dugouts and everything. We can accommodate a field but there are some compromises that we have to make. Between the soccer field and what the fence line would be if we pushed the backstop area to 40 feet, which is a minimum, there would be a drainage ditch in there and that's where all the drainage for the park comes through. If you ran too far off the soccer field, you'd fall in a ditch. I don't know if that's a compromise that we want to make. We also lose a ballfield. It was always staff's feeling that what was originally wanted was a field that was similiar to Field #1 that we could play Babe Ruth or softball. That was what the plan accommodated. If we want a bonafide Babe Ruth field, you can't play softball on it so you absolutely lose a softball field out -' there. Staff doesn't feel that that's the compromise that you want to make. I don't think that we want to make it tight. We don't want to make Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 33 ,.... a makeshift field. I don't think that that's what you want to do. I might be wrong. So I looked around the city at where else we could accommodate a Babe Ruth field. We've got a park plan that is, and it's been approved but can still be modified without any great cost. Feasibility study hasn't been done. Plans and specs haven't been done at Lake Susan. We can make the ballfield there. A Babe Ruth field that will have the 350 foot fence line. The outfield line is 350. The fence line is 300. The baselines are 90. Grass infield. Dugouts. 40 to 60 foot backstop area. You'll have room for a pitcher's mound and the batting cage and bleachers for spectators and it isn't going to interfere with anything. We're not going to lose anything that we've counted on except a practice field which if we were going to lose, we can use Field *6 then at Lake Ann for a practice field for softball. So my recommendation is to direct staff to modify the Lake Susan plan to accommodate a Babe Ruth field. Standard Babe Ruth field. Due to the increased cost, we would have to acquire at the Lake Ann site and all the other things that I just went through, I think that it makes for a better plan. I know there are people here from the Babe Ruth group and they have comments and would like to maybe address this issue before you go too far. Schroers: What kind of a time frame would we be looking at to get that field in at Lake Susan? Sietsema: The Lake Susan plan is scheduled for this year. It cannot be ~one at the beginning of the year because Lake Drive East has to go ~hrough. Empak is going through. Rosemount is going through and we have to let that road settle at different spots. There's some questionable spots and we can't get in there right at the beginning of the year. Gary said that there is an outside chance that we wouldn't get construction done this year but he's got it as a priority. He knows how important it is that we could get it in before fall and as long as it's in and grass seed is in the ground this year, it would be the same time line. It would be ready the same time as the one at Lake Ann is and I think that that's doable. Boyt: Is this the only access for Rosemount? Through the park? Sietsema: I don't know. Boyt: They're using this access as an access. They're using Lake Susan as an access for the building materials to get through to Rosemount? Mady: No. It goes through the church access. Sietsema: They were routing access through the park until the road settles to a point that they can have regular traffic on it. Boyt: So we can't start Lake Susan because they're using the park as access for Rosemount. ~ietsema: But that's not the only reason. .as those 3 major, major projects going on. It's also because engineering They can't stretch themselves. Boyt: They can't to those areas any other way besides through the park? Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 34 ...". Sietsema: I don't know that that's true. I know that that's the way they've chosen because he can't start on that project because he can't take anymore work load on is the way I understand it. Boyt: What does Gary have to do with, what does he do to make this go onto the next step? What does engineering have to do with it now? You said engineering has our project now. Sietsema: Once our plans are done, it's an engineering project. It's no longer a park project. Then they prepare plans and specifications. They advertise for bids. Boyt: And they don't have time to do that? Sietsema: until the We can do all the paperwork but the field work can't be started road's. . . Boyt: And that's the city crew that does the ground work? Sietsema: It's not like the park maintenance crew but it's the engineering staff that has to do with that inspections... Boyt: And they don't have time to have one more project involved in their program? Sietsema: Well they're stretched right now. I'm not saying they can't, he's going to do it if it's any way feasible that he can and he's assured me that he will do what he can. ...." Schroers: Okay Lori, the Lake Susan option sounds like a reasonable thing. Let's hear what our visitors have to say about it. Brad Johnson: I think it's a good idea to go to Lake Susan given the parameters we were just given. I would like to think if that is going to happen, given that I'm building an apartment building 3 years later than I planned, there will probably be some kind of delay in that schedule to get it done. So if that's the case, I'd like to see the Babe Ruth have total priority over Field 1 next year both for practice, in concept anyway because we're really hurting for practice fields and all kinds of stuff right now and meeting the schedule so as long as, until Lake Susan is open, we'd like to have access to Field #1 for practices as well as games starting next year. Boyt: Didn't we set aside one of those fields for them this year? Brad Johnson: We have Little League and Babe Ruth but just to say, we plan on those fields being ready next year. Boyt: Steve said that Little League was... Brad Johnson: They are using it. We had just tremendous growth, we'll ~ have 100 kids next year in Babe Ruth and I'm happy to say it's going along really good but that's good and bad news. That means we need a field every Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 35 ,.... night. Schroers: I guess I'd be interested in checking with Todd on that. Would that be feasible in your schedule Todd to make Field 1 available? Hoffman: Not as it presently sits at this time. In order to make the field available 2 nights a week this year we had to make quite a number of changes in adult leagues which obviously upset some people there but we feel the commitment to everybody. All parties interested in using those fields as equally as possible. Brad Johnson: Well let's put it this way. available and if the Babe Ruth field is not could we get the priority of Field l? That Field 1 becomes a Babe Ruth field until the When the other fields become available at Lake Susan, then shouldn't hurt your scheduling. Lake Susan is done. Sietsema: With the addition. If the Lake Susan option gets put out an extra year, I don't think that would be a problem. Brad Johnson: If we get a year, whatever. Right now we have no anticipating than we had... I'd like to know that I can say we've got a field as fast as we thought we were going to have a field and I can see a year delay. ~ietsema: Regardless, whether the Babe Ruth field goes at Lake Ann or if ~t goes at Lake Susan, it won't be ready next year. No way. Brad Johnson: Let's just say Lake Susan isn't available for 2 years now. I guess I'm saying, whenever the field would have been available, okay. You now have extra fields. We'd like to maintain as Lake Susan. Hasek: What he's asking us to do is to make a commitment that if there's a delay beyond the normal construction and readiness of that field, that his program, if he's going to take the time to build it, isn't going to suffer because of the growth of other areas. Brad I have a question for you. How is your program orchestrated? Is it all of Chanhassen kids or do you participate in kind of traveling type of program? Brad Johnson: The way it works is, the kids that play on it are from Chanhassen, victoria. What we do is the Babe Ruth kids from victoria, Excelsior, Tonka Bay and Chanhassen and Shorewood use our field. The Babe Ruth field. In reverse of all that, the Little League kids primarily use Shorewood's. That's the flip and that's working out real well. In addition to that, it's possible that I think victoria has some real good fields coming on. They have 2 or 3 new fields including a Babe Ruth field that we might have access to but Chaska's after it also as part of their program. So we lost out a little this year because we didn't move quick enough to get victoria kids active. So then where we play is in Shakopee, Belle Plaine, Jordan, Chaska. Chaska has 3 Babe Ruth fields. Shakopee's ~ot 5. They have a lot more teams than we do. Hasek: Are you going to be able to do you feel keep that field or one field busy 5 or 6 nights a week, whatever it is? Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 36 '-' Brad Johnson: I just figured that out. We've got 4 teams now and we play 2 games a week so we keep the 2 nights busy. We play 2 games a night ~ nights a week. Next year let's just say, we're short we only have 6 teams or 7 teams, then we'll need another full night. It will just kind of grow like that. The other alternative is to work on victoria. That's the subtlety of this whole thing. There are some softball fields being built over in Excelsior, Shorewood and Tonka Bay that our adult leagues could use if we remember to try to coordinate it. See at this level the adults and the softball are talking to each other and we're able to move from field to field because I think it got, from a strcture, I think you've got to look at the whole world that way because nobody can enough fields at anyone day the way we're going. Hasek: I think that's probably true. I like the idea of reciprosity. If we're contributing to a program someplace else, that they should be contributing to ours. Brad Johnson: At the parent level you seem to be able to pull that off except that Bennett Field controls so many fields in Excelsior but it seems to be working. Hasek: I just read something in the paper I think that talked about Shorewood fields. That they're not ready. There was some screw-up in the grading and they're going to have to be regraded this year so that's going to push those another season now. ......." Brad Johnson: That's softball. Like I said, I don't mind, I know everything is delayed. We're seeing an example of that. I know this is probably a better plan that we had before from what I can tell but I just want some agreement that we all remember that if the other 3 fields corne available, then field 1 becomes available to us. We don't have to hassle with that okay. The third thing, Little League, you might when you're planning, since we're going over to Lake Susan, I don't know, you've got a pond way over on what appears to be the south end there. If it's possible to put a Little League field back to back there. Sietsema: It'd be nice but I checked and we can't. Brad Johnson: It won't work? Hasek: A quick question I have for you, as long as you talked about the field, is that one oriented the way that you'd like to see it or would you like to see it turn around? Brad Johnson: We'd like to see it go southwest right? Hasek: You'd like to see it from home plate to pitcher go southwest? Brad Johnson: Yes, for Lake Ann, for evening play. Not good for daytime. .....", ~ady: That's one of my questions on the plan for Lake Susan. I was wondering if the orientation of the backstop is right. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 37 ,..., Brad Johnson: Lake Ann is oriented correctly. Lake Susan is backwards. Ideally, because we play mostly evening games, I don't think it's right. Those are the three things. They've got a problem and we all got a problem but it looks like a real good solution. Sietsema: I don't think that there'd be a problem dedicating Field 1 once the other fields come on line. They'll either be at Lake Susan or they'll have Field 1. I don't have a problem with that. Hasek: What happens, while we're also starting to think, how much do you think your program is going to grow by next year? Brad Johnson: ...Field 1 is the only one without any screens in front of the benches. Extremely dangerous. Every other one has a little fence in front of the dugout. We anticipated that that would be taken care of this year and so far it has not and we've already almost had a couple of injuries the last couple games and I don't believe that it doesn't happen at softball games either... And it can't cost a lot of money. We're talking $500.00 to run 20 feet of cyclone fence 4 feet high so somebody can sit behind it so that seems like that should be taken care of. All those have a problem but every time you hit the ball, it goes over the backstop and into the woods. It wouldn't hurt to add another little extension on the backstops of all three fields. The other two fields have the fence I ~elieve but that one does not and it has to do with the way it's sitting on l hill and we shouldn't make the same mistake the next time around. So there should always be the capability of having a fence in lieu of the dugout. Does that make sense? Schroers: I agree with you. Brad Johnson: I think you guys have to authorize, I don't know where the money comes for that but it can't be a lot of money right? Is it? Hoffman: Approximately $2,500.00 I would think. Hasek: For a 6 foot fence or a 5 foot fence. I think it should be 6 foot high so you can stand. Brad Johnson: That's a minimum and then if we can get something to catch the foul balls in the woods. You're going to have that problem anyway. Hasek: Yes but I mean, if you're playing baseball and you're standing there, I'd like to see them 6 feet. I'd rather get hit in the shin than hit in the head so let's move it up a foot. Brad Johnson: Somebody's going to get hit, whether it's a kid or whatever and then if you could put backstops on those because when we were over in Hopkins, we started hitting balls and then they did like what we're doing; ~they put in a field behind it and people will stand and watch the game next . ioor got hit by the balls going over the backstop so they end up having to net the whole area to protect the people from the balls going out. The softball fields are okay because sometimes they come out over that. These Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 38 are just things that we thought were going to be taken care of this year. Then how about our, did we want any more discussion on the batting cage? For this year or was it next year? ......, Mady: I was talking to one of the members from the Lion's Club last week. They have some money available from their garage sale. They were looking for a project and I informed them that the CAA was looking to possibly buy another batting machine or something. I don't know what their costs are or what their needs are but they're always looking for something. Brad Johnson: The question was where to put up the batting cage. Somebody asked the question. Did you look into it? Sietsema: No I haven't got a hold of them yet. Brad Johnson: We looked at one. They're not as big as they look are they? Hasek: No, they're not. The graphic I think is a little deceiving. Brad Johnson: So we'd like to get that done or. at least when we can do it. Right now even if we had the money to do it on our own, we couldn't get it in. Hasek: My only suggestion would be to keep in contact with Lori because she's got to get a hold of that person and it hasn't happened yet. --' Brad Johnson: Okay, thanks. Lash: I have a question for you Todd for committing to having Field 1 for them. The only field with lights at Lake Ann cause a problem next year? Are you not anticipating having late games? Hoffman: It's all just a matter of scheduling and who would be scheduled for late games and who would not be. The reason field 1 is used as a Babe Ruth field is because it has the ability to go to 90 foot baselines and it has the 300 foot foul line distance. That is the reason that it's naturally put over to Babe Ruth or baseball. Lash: Okay, so you wouldn't have a problem with that? Hoffman: I would not have a problem scheduling it but again it's just a preference with the adults. If they like to play late games they may still want to be scheduled there but it's just a decision on what makes the most sense. Lash: Do you have late games every night of the week or how often? Hoffman: Every night of the week. Lash: Could these Lake Susan fields be used for soccer also? Robinson: Can the Lake Susan field if it's going to be a Babe Ruth field be used for softball? ....." Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 39 .~ Sietsema: No. Robinson: Just Babe Ruth? Sietsema: Just Babe Ruth. If you've got a town team going. used for Little League. Little League needs a smaller field. be Babe Ruth or adult baseball. It can't be It can only Brad Johnson: Or Legion ball. Micky Mantle ball. All kinds of teams that we could create. Sietsema: Babe Ruth or older. Mady: In a pinch for tournaments and that, you can play softball. The bases are in the middle of the infield but you're best off to keep them separate. Sietsema: Softball doesn't play with the mound and they have the grass infield. Robinson: But you should have a big program then if we're going to have one field dedicated to the Babe Ruth. ~ady: We have the program now, we just don't have the place to put them. Je have to keep in mind too, when we get the south park developed, that has been supposedly going to be our baseball fields. Lash: But I would assume we would keep this our Babe Ruth field if we're going to spend that kind of money on it. Brad Johnson: Most communities have one of each. One good field. Mady: Where you can develop some community pride for your town teams and traveling league. Lash: I would still think that you'd want to have the batting cage over there then. Then we're only giving the batting cage to Babe Ruth. Mady: Not necessarily. If you have a batting machine, you can use it for anything. Lash: But it's not going to be, like you guys were talking about, people going to warm up before their game. Schroers: Well they could. If they knew that the batting cage was not being used by Babe Ruth at the time and our team had a 7:15 game out there, if we wanted to meet down at Lake Susan at 6:00 or 6:30 and take a few swings, we could do that. ~.ash: If they weren't using them? Brad Johnson: It's a scheduling problem. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 40 Mady: I've got another question, since Lori's here we're saying 1 1/2 for Little League out on diamond we have to fence number 6? Can we just leave it an we can have the possibility of using it for soccer? Sietsema: You can but again, you have a field that isn't really, it's a compromise. You can't have soccer goals out there and still use it for softball. Without a fence it can't be used for softball tournaments so it's either going to be a soccer field or a softball. You can't use both during the same season anyway. with Lake Ann. Now 3. Is there any reason open field out there so -" Hoffman: Without a fence anyway. Mady: But if you put a permanent fence there, you'll never be able to use it for soccer. Hoffman: Correct. Mady: We don't have to have a fenced field. Hoffman: Without a fence we can't play league play on it. Mady: Sure you can. Hasek: I have a question. Why would we do that? Just to put another soccer field out there? ......, Mady: Yes. Hasek: How about, we could put 2 soccer fields in Chaparral. Mady: That's a neighborhood park. Hasek: Well we're playing softball in there already. Mady: Just kids softball. Hasek: But once established, to me it doesn't make any sense to go the half way route again. I think what you're going to find is we're going to design it and we're going to put in, if you wanted to go that route, you'd end up putting in a field, not putting then fence and down the road sometime you'll decide that it didn't work out anyway. I think that the staff is right that the scheduling and having the equipment out there and try to go through that hassle, first of all it's going to really tax the field. I think if we try to overuse it like that. It tends to push things late into the fall which destroys the field and cuts into the recovery time of the normal softball field and baseball field anyway. It just doesn't, overlapping uses is something that we'd like to be able to do but even in our work, I know that we're getting away from it. We don't have any overlapping uses left I think in Burnsville. We've completely separated things simply from a scheduling standpoint and recovery standpoint for the fields it just doesn't make any sense anymore. ......., Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 41 ".... 5ietsema: Quite honestly, I really think that we'd have less use in the end. I don't think you'd use it to it's full potential having both. Mady: Okay, I'm just looking for the flexibility. Sietsema: In theory it's a nice idea but it doesn't really work on paper. Mady: None of the soccer requests yet. Hoffman: We're working real well with the soccer people as far as I am their appointed person to schedule fields. To get them lined. The correct goal sizes and all of that and relationships with summer soccer has improved greatly. As far as the fall youth soccer program, the fields up here are meeting the need presently. How much that is going to grow in the future years and a park like Lake Ann, that large field out there for fall soccer could be split into 2 and possibly even 3 fields for that program so that would meet some of those needs. Schroers: Okay, before we move on with this, Laurie do you have anything specific that you wanted to address? Laurie McRosti: No, I think Lori has covered the situation quite well in terms of the impact that changing the softball field at Lake Ann to a baseball field would have on the park and that you probably wouldn't have ~he baseball field that you could build at Lake Susan. Sietsema: I only asked Laurie to be here in case you had any questions that I couldn't answer regarding the plan, the design at Lake Ann. Schroers: Are you looking for a motion on this? Sietsema: Yes. What I would like is a motion to modify the Lake Susan plan to accommodate a standard Babe Ruth field and also if you want to put that fence up by the benches, to allocate $2,500.00 from the una1located funds for that purpose. Hasek: So moved. Mady: Second. Siestema: On both? Hasek: Yes. Boyt: Where we do the Babe Ruth field, let's include putting up bleachers up there in the plan. Hoffman: Grandstand. Boyt: Yes, like victoria. "...., dchroers: Yes, if we're going to do that, let's make it a real nice official baseball park. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 42 ~ Sietsema: Okay, I need that as two motions and you made them both and you seconded them both. Hasek moved, Mady seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to modify the Lake Susan plan to accommodate a standard Babe Ruth field. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Hasek moved, Mady seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to install a fence on in front of the benches on Field 1 and extend the backstop and to allocate $2,500.00 from the unallocated funds for that purpose. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Erhart: Can I ask a question. Did we get an outfield fence on Field 6? Sietsema: Yes. That was the directive last time. Hasek: A quick question, trees. You're still considering moving those trees out there right? Laurie McRosti: Yes. Actually I don't think now that's going to happen probably until fall. Sietsema: The question was asked, where's the money, the $2,500.00 going ~. to come from? If you recall there was the Bluff Creek access money and we spent part of that on an Eagle Scout. We spent part of it on Centex and now this would be probably close to the end of it. There might be $1,000.00 left. REVIEW PLAYGROUND DESIGN FOR LAKE ANN PARK AND AUTHORIZE PURCHASE. Sietsema: You all had some ideas, definite ideas on what you wanted to see in the playground equipment at Lake Ann Park. The yellow section of this shows phase 1 of what's being proposed and what it has is, it has a spiral slide, your 5 platform structure here. There's 5 of them and the highest one is 70 inches. So we've got the spiral slide that comes off this side. We've got the S pipe climber which is real popular with the older kids. We've got the clatter bridge. We've got a tube slide that's actually longer than the one that's pictured here. A chain ladder here. Steel steps as shown. Vertical ladder off on this side. That would be Phase 1 and it would include the border for both phases. Phase 2 would include, this will be a chain walk here and a balance beam over to a 3 platform structure there. It would have the track slide that goes over to this. Schroers: Is that balance beam also at 70 inches? Sietsema: Then it has for the younger kids, it has a double poly slide with the horizontal ladder that goes across. The 5 platform structure. A ~ slide going off this way. It's got the ring ladder across here. Tire swing. Belt swing and 2 tot swings which would be changed to whatever our Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 43 "..... ~eeds seem to be. Boyt: One of the ideas we had talked about was having a platform, 70 inch platform to go all the way around in a rectangle or square so that it's something different from what other playgrounds have. You can pretend it's a fort. Hasek: You mean go all the way around? Boyt: Here, here, here and platform 6 feet around it. make it different from what imagination a little bit. here. Once they get up there, it's this That was one of the things we talked about. other playgrounds had so they can use their To Mady: And still have the things underneath them? Boyt: Yes. Hoffman: They've probably never designed something like that. Boyt: I think with the amount of money we're spending, that they would be flexible with us. ~ady: One of the concerns I had when I looked at the thing is there's only ; swings. This thing is going to handle a lot of kids. It's just not enough swings. Lash: The tire swing can handle 3 kids easily. Mady: A swing set is not going to bust for a 6 swing swingset. You just have to expand the ground a bit. Lash: Well we have a little bit. You could go a little bit. Sietsema: Right. Mady: This price on a 6 swing heavy duty was like $890.00 or something. For just the additional, just the single standing in place swingset... The list price. I don't know if we get a discount on it. We have to expand the border I would guess somehow to do something different but at least then you would have... Boyt: We could get rid of the track ride and put a guardrail up that way and put something in. Lash: I like that. Boyt: Do you? The kids didn't seem to like that. .~,ash: We went to about 4 or 5 different ones and the all the kids... One ~hing you need to watch and that's...is the height for the platforms of where they get on and they get off. That they can reach. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 44 Sietsema: Yes, they start at 14 inches. ...",. Mady: That's to keep the kids that are too little to actually be using them. Lash: Right. Another thing, one of the parks that I went to that was in an elementary in Bloomington I think had just a wonderful layout I thought because one phase of it, while they were connected, one phase was sort of suited for littler kids. The steps were closer together. The slide had a double wide slide because we went with a major age range of 18 months to 12 years and you could see the little bitty kids went right over and they could play and you didn't even have to worry about them falling between the steps and all that. Then the other section had the track ride and the taller slides and the steps were further apart and the little kids couldn't even get up on the bigger steps so I thought that was a real neat idea the way they laid it out. What's that vertical layout of that...bridge? Hasek: Yes. It's just a vertical ladder. Lash: Okay. Sietsema: The vertical ladder is just another way for them to get up there without going off inbetween. Just a ladder. Lash: I like those sand diggers too. The kids really like those. .""" Hasek: Is the underlayrnent going to go in the whole area to start with? Sietsema: Right. So this area will all be the pea rock or buckshot or whatever. Robinson: How big an area is that? Hasek: 76 x 62? Lash: You'd have the pea rock under the scoopers too? Hasek: Yes. Can I ask that when you place this out there that you take a look at what little area there is for that warm-up area because those guys are going to continue to use that for softball even though it's getting crowded. This is the one on top of the hill. If you push it back towards that woods much farther than it is right now, there's going to be a conflict in there because you're going to always have people warming up back there. If you can keep it on top of the hill and away from that big box elder, what's ever out there, I think it will be out of the way enough. Lash: The one thing I'm not that crazy about which maybe other people, kids like it, are those ringed monkey bars. My kids thought they were really hard. Sietsema: That is Phase 2 so we can relook at that and if something else ':omes up. ....." Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 45 ,-.... Schroers: Did you get what Sue mentioned about keeping it all on one level? Boyt: Even if it was a little over and we had it on the clatter bridge, something so they could get all the way around. Sietsema: For a second phase or do we include it in this? Schroers: Why don't we move on this and then if you have some specific ones just give them to Lori later. Mady: One of my concerns is that phase 1 there's no swings on this thing at all. There's no swings in this thing for Phase 1. Erhart: That was my concern too because everybody likes the old fashioned swing don't they? Hasek: How can you get swings in Phase I? Mady: I don't know but you can go with just a free standing swing set. Schroers: That's probably the most reasonable option. ~ash: Could we take the tire swing out and put in these double swings? Sietsema: That's Phase 2. We can do swings, we just need to take something else off. Schroers: If you look at this as up being north, in the far southwest corner would there be room for a swingset there? Mady: A 4 swingset area requires 37 x 36. Boyt: If you took the S climber out and put 1 or 2 tire swings in there? Hasek: Well I think you could only get 1 in there. Sietsema: I think you only can get 1 in there too. They take a lot of room. Hasek: You can only get 2 in what they've got up here. Schroers: Could we alter the plan enough just to put in an extension down off of there to accommodate the swings? Sietsema: An extension where? Schroers: Off the bottom. ~ietsema: Instead of the S pipe or to put a free standing thing? Erhart: A free standing. Isn't that what you're talking about? Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 46 Mady: You've have to pea rock under these. -' Schroers: I'm talking about down in this corner. So we just extend this corner down to accommodate free standing swings in there. Then leave the rest of Phase 1 intact. Sietsema: I'd have to look and see how much space we have to do that. There are some limits as far as the space that we have. Mady: They recommend 37 x 36 for a big one. That's for 4. If you go down to 3, it would be 27. Boyt: I think any amount. Schroers: Okay, can we include that in the motion? Sietsema: It's a blank piece of paper right now so you can include anything you want. Schroers: Okay, let's do that. Can I make a motion here? Mady: Sure. Schroers: Okay, I'm going to recommend that we authorize staff to go ahead with the purchase of Phase 1 as shown with the exception of adding an addition area for swings. ~ Sietsema: In Phase 1 you want to do that? Now you're talking about going over budget then because you're going to have to increase your border and purchase the swings. Boyt: If we take something out. Hasek: We still have to increase it. That's what we were just sketching out here. This is about the area. Schroers: I think I personally would rather go over budget than take something else out. 'My opinion on that would be that if we do end up with a nicer, larger play area in the end. Mady: Can we table this pending reviewing our concerns and corning back with this at the next meeting? Lash: Are we still going to be able to do it this year? Mady: Well we've got the one still there so. Robinson: Why are we tabling it? Sietsema: If you want to make a motion to direct staff to modify the plan to accommodate swings. We can go over budget but that means something isn't going to get done. Our budget is so tight this year. --' Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 47 ,..... Hasek: There's another possibility too and... Sietsema: And that would take a budget adjustment to do that. Hasek: Right, there's the possibility that we might be able to purchase this piece of swingset here and attach it to what we've already got and then just reinstall it when we do Phase 2. Sietsema: You can't use old home made stuff and attach it to this. Hasek: No, I'm talking about buy that section and install it. If we install this piece down here someplace and then wherever we might attach and then take it out and reinstall it when we do Phase 2. We've already got the pea rock in there so that wouldn't be an additional cost. Mady: I'd like to see those swings be 2 belt swings and 1 tot swing. The useage up there, the years I've been up there, it's always been... Schroers moved, Mady seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission authorize the purchase of Phase 1 as shown with the border for both phases for a cost of $9,653.00. Also to direct staff to modify the plan for Phase 1 to include an addition of 3 swings, 2 belt swings and 1 tot swing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. ,...., \There was a tape change at this point in the meeting.) DISCUSSION OF PLAYGROUND EQUIPMENT FOR CURRY FARMS PARK. Mady moved, Hasek seconded to install the totlot equipment the City presently owns at Curry Farms Park. All voted in favor and the motion carried. COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS. Mady: A question on the rotating chair thing with us. Both Jan and Dawne are fairly new. I was wondering if they felt comfortable in handling a meeting or if they wanted to wait. Erhart: I want to look at having this at the end of June. Sietsema: You can't have it. Larry's got to have it because it's a tabled item. Erhart: I wouldn't mind waiting even longer because there is a lot to it. Especially when we've been having a lot of public hearings. If it wouldn't ~e a public hearing, then that would be okay and I think it takes a .easoned commissioner to run a meeting. Lash: I agree because I'm scheduled... Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 48 .....", Mady: Yes, maybe the next go around. Sietsema: Who's next on the schedule? Mady: I am. Sietsema: So do you think you'll be ready in the next rotation? You're not ready for this rotation? Was that the consensus? Schroers: I thought that we had left it that any time you didn't feel comfortable with it you could pass. Sietsema: I just want to make sure that I don't miss anybody and they say well Lori doesn't like me. She won't let me head up the meeting. Erhart: Go ahead and stick us on the next rotation Lori. Sietsema: And that's your feeling too? Okay. Mady: I had a question on the trail construction for Centex Homes. Were those bike trail on Devonshire Lane, was that on street or off street? Sietsema: Off street. Mady: In the previous adminstrative section that we didn't get to. The ,., estimate of repair of the tennis surface up at City Center Park. What are we doing with that thing? Are we going to go do it? Sietsema: No. It was just an estimate because it needs work. Mady: Yes, it definitely needs work. Sietsema: Basically that was initiated because we had a conference where we had a lot of exhibitors that come through and Todd and I collected information. They gave us a call and gave us an estimate on what it would be. We like to be nice to the guys, they pay a fee. Mady: The DNR on the court guidelines on the fishing pier. Are we doing anything about getting a fishing pier on Lake Ann? Hoffman: Yes. Those are our original proposal was for Lake Ann and they only funded 3 in the state and Lake Ann was in the top 10. It just gets rolled over to the next year. Mady: My last question was, where do we stand on the Lake Lucy access? Sietsema: It will be going to City Council. I'd like for it to go to City Council for the next meeting but I'm not sure I'll have all the details worked out with the DNR. So it will be by their last meeting. Mady: It's not coming back to us again? ,., Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 30, 1989 - Page 49 ,..-.. 5 ietsema: No. Mady: One other thing, after talking with a resident who lives on the lake. The question is whether or not the lake becomes quiet or not doesn't really hinge upon, where the access goes and the lake being quiet are really separate issues and hopefully will be treated as such at the Council level... That was all I had. Boyt: I wanted to say that I thought whoever did this did a really good job, Todd. Hoffman: Thank you Sue. Boyt: You've done a good job of putting programs together. I asked to look into a teen night at the park. I don't think the parks are used a lot of Friday night and Saturday night. Maybe having something for our teenagers at Lake Ann. Volleyball, softball, Dominoes Pizza. Schroers: Okay, is there anything in the Adminstrative Section that Lori or Todd want to address? Sietsema: No. ...........:obinson moved, Schroers seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 10:20 p.m.. Submitted by Lori Sietsema Park and Rec Coordinator Prepared by Nann Opheim '"