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PRC 1989 09 12 3 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING ~ SEPTEMBER 12, 1989 Chairman Mady called the meeting to order at 7:35 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Dawne Erhart, Curt Robinson, Jim Mady, Jan Lash and Larry Schroers MEMBERS ABSENT: Sue Boyt and Ed Hasek STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Recreation Supervisor APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Schroers moved, Robinson seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated August 29, 1989 as amended on page 20 by Jan Lash to change "Jim" to "Jan" during Mark Koegler's discussion. All voted in favor and the motion carried. REVIEW REQUEST TO DELETE SIDEWALK CONSTRUCTION FROM CURRY FARMS. Public Present: Name Address ,..... John Spiess Kathy Clarke Joe Cook Dave Bestler John Flaa 6610 Arlington Court 6510 Devonshire 1291 Stratton Court 6551 Devonshire 6560 Devonshire Hoffman: We touched on this a little bit in the past meeting and Jan discussed some of the concerns that she had heard from residents out there and during her walk through. Since that time we have received this petition and letter from the Curry Farm residents. In Lori's report on this item, she indicates that staff does find it difficult to make a recommendation on this request that we take that sidewalk out of there. That requirement. In the past year we have numerous discussions regarding where trails and sidewalks should be placed. The Commission- recommended a policy regarding sidewalks and trails. That was adopted by the City Council. It is logical that the Commission would uphold or recommend upholding that policy and that policy does state that in the Comprehensive Trail Plan was to endorse sidewalks, trails along thru streets to connect neighborhoods to other neighborhoods, parks, schools, downtown, etc.. Sidewalks/trails are not called for along dead end streets or cul-de-sacs. What Lori's conclusion was is what this attached request represents is an argument for, is this piece of sidewalk a link in a city wide trail or solely just a neighborhood sidewalk just to serve those residents in that neighborhood? I anticipated more residents to be here tonight in view of the number that were on the petition but Jim you can go ahead and open it .,..... up. Mady: Okay, that's what I'd like to do is open it up for public comment. What I'd ask you to do is please step up to the microphone. Our meetings Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 2 are taped and so it facilitates the transcriber to be able to pick up wh~ you're saying. Just state your name and your address. Joe Cook: My name is Joe Cook and we're at 1291 Stratton Court. First thing, part of the reason that some of the new residents that have just recently moved into the development within the last month here did not receive the notice of this meeting so that's part of the reason why some people aren't here. I guess our concern is the neighbors in the area there is that generally the whole neighborhood feels that the trail, bike path is not necessary in our development given that the neighborhood is fully developed now and there's no room, no vacant land adjacent to the Curry Farms division for further development. I mean it's not like they can make a third division, a fourth division, a fifth division and keep making this thing grow. What's there is it you know and that's one of the reasons, and the traffic volume going through the neighborhood is just minimal. Right now during the day, I mean if you go there, the most traffic going through there is construction workers. Trucks, pick-up trucks, etc.. Aside from that, there's very, very little traffic. There's just really no need for this trail system as far as we're concerned. We just overall feel that these monies which Centex is willing to donate to the City to put it into just a general trail fund. They're willing to do that. That money could be spent much better to develop trails along high traffic corridors where it makes most sense to get people off. If you're going to have people coming to our park, which it's a city park. It's been designated as a city park and it's not just for the residents of Curry Farms, which has been stated by Lori in the past. Okay, we'll buy that argument. No problem. Then you're looking at, if surrounding people are going to come into our"""" "neighborhood" to use our park, well then they should have a safe route to get to this park in addition to driving but the option should be there for them to walk there so therefore there should be these monies wonld be better spent putting trails along the busy corridors. Again, I'm not saying that it has to be corridors right adjacent to the Curry Farms but wherever. Wherever the city sees it fit. Then that way, in fact if the City were to develop some sort of policy along that lines, the City could develop a more broad trail plan because all the developers would be putting in money to this pool, etc. and they could therefore develop the trails along the most needed corridors of the City. Then in the future, then work it into the subdivisions if the residents so wish. And again, the thing is is that the residents that have bought and/or are paying for this trail. We're paying for it in the price of our homes. It's built into the price of the lot, etc., etc.. We're all paying for it through our mortgage money. We say no. We don't want it. I guess that's basically what I have to say about that. Schroers: Can I ask you a question Joe? Joe Cook: Sure. Schroers: Has Centex Homes indicated that they'll contribute that money irregardless of what part of town the money is spent in or is it going to be just to be Ilsed at Curry Farms? Joe Cook: I believe so. -' JI""" ,.... ,....... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 3 Mady: I don't think they have any choice. John Spiess: I'm John Spiess. Homes. Whatever park policy is contribute to the trail system. there not? I'm a resident and also work with Centex for the requirements for developers to I think there's a dollar amount per lot is Mady: Yes. John Spiess: How much is that? Mady: $150.00. John Spiess: $150.00? We discussed this today and if the agreement is that the people don't want it, then the money can go to trails systems or whatever any other developer would pay towards the park and recreation recommendations for developers to pay towards the trail system as they develop lots. Joe Cook: Okay. Thank you. Mady: I have a couple of questions for you guys. This is a sidewalk system. I don't know how much thought you all have given to sidewalks. I've been involved with the sidewalk issue for 3 years officially and it's something that's been near to me for a long time. A sidewalk is more than just a place for people to ride their bikes or to get from another neighborhood into your park. It's also a linear park system for the kids that live right on the street. I know in my neighborhood and other neighbors in the city, we've got kids who roller skate, skateboard, play hop scotch, all those types of things, and the sidewalk is a place they do that. I know your neighborhood, driveways aren't real long so they don't have a lot of area there. You've got a 4 year old, where are they supposed to learn to ride their bike? Do you want them in the street? I think as people start thinking about it seriously, they start to realize that maybe a sidewalk isn't that bad. I have yet to hear a logica~ explanation of why it shouldn't be there. What I've been hearing has been concern for dollars and not concern for safety and concern for kids lives. Last night at the Council meeting one of my neighbors got up and asked for a sidewalk on my street. It amazed me because he has been against it for a number of years and he asked for it last night. I just about died when I heard it and I don't know why for sure. I haven't had the opportunity to talk to him about it but I think it came down to he started looking at the safety issue. He got up and told the Council that 3 people in the 30 years our street's been there, 3 people have been killed on our road. Your road has just been in, started and it's true, it probably does have minimal traffic. Up until 2 years ago my road had minimal amount of traffic but yet supposedly there were 3 deaths on it. There are other areas in the City where there have been kids hit by cars. If we continue to put our kids on the street, we're just asking for more and more and more accidents to occur. And I, as a city official, have a hard time saying well kids should play in the street because that's what we're asking for them to do. So my question to you is really, what do we tell parents who's kids have been hit by cars? What are we supposed to say to them? Well, gee I'm sorry but $40,000.00 is worth a heck of a lot more in the city bank account than Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 4 putting cement in front of your house. --' Kathy Clarke: Yeah but wouldn't it be worth more to put it on Powers? Mady: We will be putting it on Powers. Kathy Clarke: You could do that right now with this money... Mady: We will be putting sidewalks hopefully throughout the entire city. What we're saying is, we have the opportunity right now to do yours right now. I mean it's in the development contract. It's not costing any more money to the City. It's there. Powers will get done. Joe Cook: The thing is now, okay so we've got the trail going on Devonshire from Lucy to Powers on Devonshire. What about the rest of the development? The development of Curry Farms? John Flaa: There's 2 or 3 other roads. Joe Cook: There's 2 or 3 other roads that have no trails. Okay? aren't you saying, if we follow your logic, which is fine. I don't problem with it, then there should be trails on every single road throughout that development if you're following that plan. So why have a Mady: I firmly believe that, alright? I firmly believe that but the compromise that's been made at the city level is that we do not put them not thru streets. We put them on thru streets only and Devonshire is a ...""., thru street. The remaining streets are not thru streets at this time. That's what the compromise was. I don't like the compromise. My personal opinion, and I've talked to people who live on small cul-de-sacs with maybe 4 homes on them, they would rather have the sidewalk in front of their house even though they know that practical matters may not be more than 8 cars driving on that street the entire day. I firmly believe in the safety issue. We have a safety issue here and you're asking to put kids on the street because that's where they're going to go. They always do. They always will. Joe Cook: That's the thing. Kids in general will, if a parent says go on the sidewalk, well, I mean it's up the parent to be looking out for the safety and welfare of their child and you can tell your child a hundred times to stay on the sidewalk and they'll be on the road every time. It's again, it boils down to the fact that parents have to be responsible for their children and that's really what it comes down to. So that's our rebuttal on that. Mady: So you personally feel that your children will be fine in the street? Joe Cook: No. I'm saying that it's up to me to keep them out of the street regardless. Whether there's a sidewalk there or not isn't going to make a lot of difference. Mady: Where's your child going to be roller skating and riding their bik~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 5 ,.... Kathy Clarke: In the path around the park. Joe Cook: Probably going down to the park which is just down the road. Mady: How do they get to the park? Kathy Clarke: They cross the street. Mady: They walk on the street. John Flaa: My name is John Flaa. I'm at 6560 Devonshire and again, I have to agree with what Joe's saying. I think by the fact that the petition that we issued to you indicated that people had some time to think about this. I think, I don't know what the exact numbers but I think there was only one dissention as fa~ as rejecting the bike path. The way it was set up o~iginally is that this was supposed to be a 6 foot wide asphalt bike path that was supposed to start 3 feet into the ya~d. As written that way, I think that's unnecessary because if you look at some of the other streets that have that similar facility, such as if you look at CR 4 in Eden prairie, CR 5 in Minnetonka, those are off of main county roads that will have this same facility and the same th~u fare as what is being proposed here. Maybe there's been some revisions of what's going to go in but I just again, agree with Joe. I don't think the traffic on that street is going to war~ant something that would nm through people's yards and I think the fact. I really don't think people are going to cut th~ough ~ Devonshire to get to Lucy from Powers. I think if anything they'll go down to Lucy and cut th~ough. I do myself because I live on the corner lot at Lucy and Devonshire because it's a lot quicker that way. I think, we've done some informal studying. I know Jan was out there one time and we watched the traffic that went through there for about a half hour so and nothing went through there and I think the traffic will be even less once the construction leaves because that's really the bulk of the vehicles that go th~ough there right now. I think the fact that we're talking about a sidewalk to take people, at least proposed, a maximum of 2 blocks, is ~eally ha~dly wo~th the money to put that in. If this was a long road that went blocks and blocks and blocks such as Lake Lucy, that's a different matter but if we're talking a maximum of about 4 blocks from Point A to Point B, all the way from Powers to Lucy, I really don't think it's necessary. Mady: Do you have any children? John Flaa: Not now, no. Mady: Is it just as possible for a child to be hit in a 4 block stretch as on Lake Lucy Road? It's a real serious safety problem with me. I know the problem. ,..... Kathy Clarke: If this goes through my front yard, my children are, in my mind, in a lot more danger because there are 4 teenage boys that live across the street that instead of skateboarding in their driveway are going to skateboard on the sidewalk and then I've got 9 feet less of yard to try to control my toddlers in. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 6 John Flaa: You're bringing more traffic into a non~traffic area as it i~-, Kathy Clarke: I mean that's the way I see it. They're going to skateboard in my front yard now instead of in their driveway. Mady: No, they'll skateboard in the street. Kathy Clarke: They skateboard in their driveway right now. These 4 boys happen to do that. They build jumps and things like that in their driveway and they'll for sure do this now on a 6 foot wide sidewalk. Mady: It's a 5 foot cement sidewalk. Kathy Clarke: No, right now... Mady: No, it's a 5 foot wide cement sidewalk. Kathy Clarke: When did that get changed? Mady: Isn't it Todd? Hoffman: 6 foot asphalt. John Flaa: And part of it, this is an off shoot, this was an issue that we just got with Centex, that it was never in the development. It was never told to any of these residents along Devonshire Drive that it was in the plan at all. That's a side issue that we discuss with Centex but I think-' if people would have known about it, they might have thought differently about purchasing at those locations. Kathy Clarke: I'm Kathy Clarke. I live at 6510 Devonshire. We're...and part of our attraction. We could have bought a house in South Minneapolis or we could have bought old Edina or any of these places that have sidewalks and things. We chose to move to a more rural setting and that's really what we want. The asphalt 6 feet wide is completely unacceptable because of what it's going to look, the maintenance and the weeds and how wide it is and how far it would go into our yard. This 5 foot wide cement sidewalk would just be a sidewalk but we didn't buy in an area with sidewalks because of how we wanted our property to look and it's the neighborhood we wanted to live in. I think that that's why the people who signed a petition who don't even live near the sidewalk and their lots aren't affected, are against this. I mean what do they care if there's a sidewalk going through my yard. What they care is that it's not, why live in Chanhassen. Joe Cook: A further issue might also be that, maintenance on this thing. Now the residents, that's a real foggy issue for the residents, myself included. What's the City's responsibility for maintaining this? Who's maintaining the green strip between the curb and the sidewalk? I know the city of Chanhassen. I know it's typical of any city out there and it's a matter of long term maintenance on this sidewalk. 10 years from now wher these sidewalks start busting up and weeds start growing up through them,-, are the funds going to be available to properly maintain these sidewalks to keep the city looking as it should versus something that's crumbling and Pa~k and Rec Commission Meeting Septembe~ 12, 1989 - Page 7 ,..... falling apart and weeds coming up. John Flaa: I think a further example is the asphalt bike path that goes from CR 17 up along TH 5 that goes into Lake Ann. That looks to be what is being proposed for our neighborhood and it's a shambles. There's weeds growing allover. Mady: The reason that bike path has not been updated is because TH 5 is being upg~aded. The state will be putting in an 8 foot bituminous path with the upgrade of TH 5 so we are doing minimum maintenance on it at this time. We recognize that it's in bad shape but we're purposedly not doing it. Joe Cook: What about the trail here that's along Powers Blvd. here next to the Saddlebrook? That path was put in about a year ago and there's already weeds corning up along the edges and I guess that's the thing too. you've got to look at, what's 10-15 years from now. What's it going to look like? Mady: If you're acquainted with the trail referendum, the past two times, that issue's been in the referendum both times and we have stated that the City will be responsible for maintenance of those items on a rotating basis on a 5 to 8 year schedule. Whatever the engineering street department deems necessary to keep those well maintained. It is the City's responsibility and the City has made that commitment. Made the commitment 2 years ago. ~ Joe Cook: I understand that but trail maintenance, if there's budget crunching that occurs, which usually does happen, the trail maintenance is going to slide first. That's one of the non-essential things in the overall city budget. Mady: I guess that's not a statement I can live with because it's up to each individual Council as it comes up. The current Council made that commitment, or the Council during the referendum made that commitment. Joe Cook: Sure, it's all the Council and it tends to do it, and I'm sure hopefully...there's really no guarantee of that so to speak so that's another thing. John Flaa: Maybe while we're eating up 10 feet of our already small front yards, the way it's written it doesn't start until 3 feet into the yard. Who's responsible for that yard way? Mady: You would have the same responsibility for that 3 feet whether or not the trail's there because right now it's road right-of-way so it's city property. You have the responsibility of maintaining that whether or not. You know, cut the grass. Kathy Clarke: What about shoveling responsibilities? ~ Mady: Shoveling, on the trail situation has always been, essential areas will be shoveled and maintained by the City during the snow season. Non- essential areas will not be, and part of the reason is that some of those may be deemed as cross country ski trails. We will not be shoveling every Pa~k and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 8 t~ai1 in the city. '"""'" Kathy Clarke: The other thing...when we we~e discussing the plan of the park, we have two ponds in the park and we brought up the safety issue. I can't ~emember who's answer it was but it was the responsibility of the parents to make sure that the children don't drown in the pond. Now all of a sudden it's you~ legislative, that responsibility if away from us by forcing the sidewalks on us and... Mady: No, I'm saying that the City should We can't guarantee safety on any situation opportunity to provide a safe opportunity. safe opportunity. provide you the safety means. but we at least allow you the Otherwise they don't have a Kathy Clarke: If you're talking about... Mady: I can't guarantee any... Kathy Clarke: ...the child playing at the playground and they drown in the pond than it is for them to get hit on Devonshire. Mady: I disagree with you 100%. I live right across the st~eet from Lotus Lake. 3 people have been killed on the road in 30 years. I don't know of anybody who's drowned on Lotus Lake in 30 years so I guess I disagree with the statement. It's an unfortunate situation that we have to have standinq ponds to take ca~e of the runoff water. I don't like it in the park mysf but that's where the developer put it. That's where the City allowed it........, I don't believe it's a steep sided pond. I hope it wasn't. We typically don't let them put them in steep sided but. John Flaa: Could I ask, what road do you live on? Mady: Frontier Trail. It's on the trail plan and hopefully it will get a sidewalk. Joe Cook: Is that a pretty busy street? Mady: It is real busy now. Joe Cook: Because of the way it was built? I'm not real familiar with it but I'm assuming that there's been some developments around the outskirts of it. Mady: Our street was a dead end street up until 2 years ago. A new development went through and our neighborhood had no choice in the fact that our street had to become a thoroughfare. We weren't happy about that. Joe Cook: I'm sure not but ea~lier I made the statement that the land around the Cu~ry Farms development has been... John Flaa: Is non-developable. Joe Cook: In other words, there is no future development. '"""'" ,.... ,..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 9 Joe Cook: And that marsh area on the opposite side of Lake Lucy on the south side, is supposedly undevelopable. To the north of the park there's no room to develop. I think somebody owns all that land up there. Mady: The Exhibit A in our thing shows that the north side with one- exception is all future single family homes. There's no reason to believe that land prices are not going to at some point make it very attractive to the owner to sell that property. Maybe it will be 30 years from now. I don't know how long that will take but someday it's going to be so attractive that somebody's going to sell it. Kathy Clarke: Where? Mady: On the north side of Curry Farms Park. Kathy Clarke: Yeah, but that's not very much land. I mean there'd can't be 10 houses. Mady: There's a considerable amount of land actually. Hoffman: Jim, again if I could ask that we end the back and forth discussion and if the visitors have a statement to make, to step up to the microphone please. Mady: I guess my concern is the safety issue. It sounds like the neighbors don't really care if their kids are forced to play in the street. I guess I can't force you to have a sidewalk there. The southern most part of Devonshire from Lake Lucy Road to the street that park's on, Stratton, that is going from an existing trail to the park. That's what it's for. That's why it's there. That's the portion I feel strongest about because those are people coming out of other neighborhoods to come into your neighborhood into the park. I don't think you're going to be letting them go through your back yards so I would like to at least see them off the street. Allowed off the street. It was my understanding when I talked to staff last week that this was a 5 foot sidewalk. It was no longer a 6 foot asphalt trail. Joe Cook: It's never been changed. Mady: Well, I talked to staff last week. Joe Cook: There's been no formal letter from the city to the residents involved that it would impact. We've been hoping. We haven't been informed if that is in fact so. Kathy Clarke: Is there any possibility that that southern part, if you could just make that side of the street no parking to eliminate any car conflict? Mady: We don't deal with no parking issues. You'd have to, I believe go ~ to Public Safety. Kathy Clarke: That would make a safer entrance to the park if that's what you're concerned about. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 10 Mady: No, it just gives the cars a wider street to drive on. We have people hit on no parking streets. Jan's neighborhood has no parking on one street. They had 2 kids hit there in the last 5 years. ....." Kathy Clarke: Could you just do an on-street like you have on Lake Lucy? Just for that little bit? Mady: I don't know how wide the road is there. Joe Cook: 28 feet I think. Kathy Clarke: We've lived there for almost a year now and I haven't seen a biker go through and I take my kids, I walk at night... I don't know where all those people are going to be coming from. Mady: Talk to the people in Pheasant Hills. They're just to the west of you. Talk to those people. Kathy Cla~ke: Do you think they're going to come all the way up... Mady: Yes they will. for the last 5 years. They have no park. They have no park. They've been asking for a park Kathy Clarke: But don't you think they're going to drive? Mady: They'll drive. They'll ride their bikes. They'll walk. They'll ~ anything they can to get there but as soon as that park's useable, they'll llse it. Joe Cook: So there, and I know on Lucy they've got the walkway in the road bed. It's a wide enough roadbed and there's a stripe there. I've walked out there with my son and I still feel, I don't feel it's safe out there with the traffic... Mady: I'm 100% with you. Joe Cook: So now what we're saying is, why not let's get the trail system, establish the first part of this trail system on these major, the more heavily traveled corridors. Therefore the people from Pheasant Hills can come down safely on a sidewalk, bike path, to our development which is a low traffic, low volume, low speed also development. That's what we're saying. I think the priorities of this trail system are real backwards because the trails should be first, where the money's available and obviously there's limited funds, the trail should first be established on the busy corridors. Secondly, they should be established on the interior, low volume streets because that's where, the low volume streets are the safer streets of the two. You have to agree with me on that. You go on these 40-50 mph streets. Those are dangerous roads. Mady: I'll agree that a high mileage street is dangerous but I also disagree that a low mileage street is just as dangerous. It only takes t-,' car and one kid. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 11 ,.... Joe Cook: Oh certainly but I'm saying that where the traffic speeds increase and also the volumes by 10 fold, that there's more danger period. I mean yes, a child could be hit just as easily on a side street as it conld on volume but the likelihood if there's a child playing along the two streets, same situation, the child on the busy street is going to be injured first and sooner than the child so I'm saying we have limited funds. We should put the funds to the use that they're going to provide the most benefit to the City and the residents of the City. Doesn't that make sense? Mady: What makes sense for me, and anybody can jump in after I'm done is, we have an opportunity. When this development carne in to the Park Commission, we had a comprehensive plan already in place that said where we were going to put trails. Where we're going to put sidewalks. How we wanted our city developed. Your development carne in. We set those policies up against that development. It carne in that way. That's what we want to happen in every development and if we don't do it right now, when do we do it? Joe Cook: Well who's we? Mady: The Ci ty . Joe Cook: The help or the residents? ,.... Mady: The City. When does the City get safety. Joe Cook: We're part of the City right? Mady: When does the City get safety? When does the City consider safety nnmber one? Kathy Clarke: Aren't you supposed to be representing us? John Flaa: You're supposed to be serving the residents. Mady: I don't know if I do or not. I'm appointed. Kathy Clarke: ...why can't you represent us? Mady: I have to represent the whole city and, see I've been up here for 3 years. Kathy Clarke: Don't you think if you polled the whole city and you said... Mady: We did poll the whole city. Kathy Clarke: Do you want this path to go through Curry Farms or do you want this $40,000.00 and we'll put on Powers or we'll put it off the street on Lake Lucy? What are they going to vote for? They're going to vote for ,.... it on the busier street. Joe Cook: Where they can use it. Where the city as a whole. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 12 Kathy Clarke: We have some priorities. Put it on the busy streets. We-,. not arguing with your past. We're just arguing that it's unnecessary. Joe Cook: It's a priority. And I don't think it's fair for you to say that we don't care if our kids play in the street. That's not the issue. Mady: It's the issue. Joe Cook: I think the number of people that answered that they didn't want the street, obviously took into account what they're going to do with their children when they're playing and they're not going to say, okay go out in the street because I don't care. They're going to be watching their kids whether they're on the street or the path. And by having the path doesn't automatically guarantee safety. You're saying you can't guarantee safety in every situation. Mady: But we can at least provide opportunity for safety. Joe Cook: But I would think that the people who voted not to have this street obviously conside~ed the safety issues. It's not like we're trying to fight an issue for it's sake. People understand okay where are we going to have our kids if we're not going to have a sidewalk. Where are they going to play? The fact of the low traffic on Devonshire. People say okay. To us it's not worth having a bike path because there's not enough volume on Devonshire to warrant a bike path. It's not just for fighting you to fight you. In fact, the path is going just a couple blocks or something, people will walk their kids down to the park or walk on people-t yards. John Flaa: We just about had this man's daughter killed on Saturday on Lake Lucy where there's an on the road bike path trail. Mady: If you were up here when the Lake Lucy trail was tried to be taken off in January when I was up here and got angry with the Council and Mrs. Dimler will remember that. I got pretty angry with the Council then because they tried to take that bike path off the street completely. Remove it. We want to get it off. Ursual Dimler: Aren't you... Mady: No, they brought it up Ursula. Joe Cook: Look at the structure of that road. Lake Lucy is a straight road. People speed on there. I've seen people go 70 mph on that road. Devonshire Drive does not create an opportunity, in my mind, for people to go flying through that road. I mean Lake Lucy is a straight shot west and people go flying down that road and if you've ever watched the traffic volume, that's the scarey street. Yeah, there's an off side trail there. Mady: I'd love to get one there. I don't have the support in Council to do it. Hoffman: Jim, just to regain some structure to this meeting. I would li~ to just make one statement. That I do not believe that neglecting this Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 13 ~ opportnnity to put this sidewalk, this trial system within your neighborhood is going to speed up the development of other trails on other streets in the city. We go through this lengthy process every time a new trail is proposed on a sidewalk or on a street and neglecting this opportunity is not going to speed that up on Lake Lucy or Powers Blvd. or anywhere else. I would like to call for last comments. If either of you gentlemen have a last comment and then I'll open it up for commissioner presentations. Ursula Dimler: I'm Ursula Dimler. I live at 7203 Kiowa Circle. I'm on the Chanhassen City Council. I wasn't going to say anything until Jim brought my name up. I sit here and I get very angry at the misrepresentation Jim. When you said about Frontier Trail, the 3 deaths. You're scaring these people to death. I know what those deaths were. The first one was about 30 years ago. A boy was sledding down a hill okay? A car could not see him. He came right directly in front of him. Okay, that was the first one. The second one that I'm aware of. I'm not even sure what the third one was. The second one was a drunk driver. Okay? Very understandable. Had nothing to do with whether there was a sidewalk there. Neither death had anything to do with whether there were sidewalks. I just don't like to see you misrepresent things to scare these people to death about the safety of their children. I believe the residents know what they want. They also know how to best care for their children and I think the City has to be responsive to what the residents want. After all, the city is the residents. That's all I have to say. ~ Mady: Any other comments? Commissioner comments. Lash: I'll start with this since I was the one who opened it up to start with. First of all, I agree with Ursula's comments. I do not think it is our responsibilty to pass judgment on these people as parents and on the safety of their children. I believe that's their responsibility. If we want to get into a safety issue on sidewalks, I believe that's a safety commission responsibility. Unless this is a major trail link to a park or to a recreational facility, I don't really even believe the Park and Rec Commission has any purpose discussing it. Jim, if you want to talk about where kids are going to roller skate and ride their bikes, skateboard, that's in the safety of their own yard. Their own home. If we want to talk about safety at home, that's not a park and rec issue anymore as far as I'm concerned. I don't have a problem at all with this coming off, if that's what the residents want. In the future, if there's new people and they feel they want the sidewalk in badly enough, they can come back with a petition. Petition the City and we'll assess them if they want it badly enough and put it in. Right now if they don't want it, I say that's fine with me. Take the money. Put it in the fund. At the last meeting, Jim I remember you bringing up you want to start getting trails on TH 101. Why not get this money and put it into fund so we can get it on TH 101 a little bit sooner. Start taking them out where they're unnecessary and put them in where they are necessary. That's the end of my comments. ,..... Schroers: I agree that our mission here is to represent the citizens of the community. That's what I try to do. I have mixed feelings about this. We have just received a new sidewalk in our neighborhood. I live along Carver Beach Road and the kids were using it and they love it before it wa Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 14 even done. They really like the sidewalk. I took the opportunity to wal-, up and down the sidewalk. Talk to the neighbors and residents along the sidewalk and ask them how they felt about it. With the exception of one person who didn't have children, who was upset about some displacement of a couple of his shrubs, everyone along that sidewalk said that they liked it. They thought that it enhanced the neighborhood and they felt a lot better about having their kids off the street. Granted, Carver Beach' is a very busy road but my personal observation is that the people that live along there like, enjoy and appreciate their new sidewalk. To me it's logical. If I had children, and I don't, but if I did, I would want a sidewalk for my kids to play on but on the other hand, I feel it is my obligation here to represent the community and the citizens and what you ask for. You're the ones that purchased your property and are paying the taxes and if you don't want it there, you don't want it there and I guess I feel that I should support you on that. I also agree with what Todd said. Taking the $40,000.00 from your sidewalk and applying it to the idea that we could immediately apply that to a major route. $40,000.00 isn't even going to get us started there. We could put it in a fund and hold it and maybe it will help out eventually but it's not like we can take that money right now and next week start to work on another major trail because it's not enough to do it. I guess that's all I really have to say about it. Robinson: I think it was about a year to 2 years ago we adopted the policy, the Park and Rec Commission did, to put off street trails wherever possible. I was opposed to that at the time because I said wherever possible and practical and I was shot down on that. To me this falls int the, it's not practical to do it here, especially when the people ~ themselves don't want to do it so I don't think there should have ever been proposed to put an off street trail on this low traveled street. Erhart: I jotted down a few things as the discussion was going on and some of it is going to be repetitive of what was already said but the safety issue. I understand what Jim's saying about safety and children being not having someplace to ride their bikes and stuff. I also sympathize with what Kathy Clarke brought up, that if the sidewalk goes in her front yard, that just chews up more of her front yard for her kids to play in and all of a sudden you do have a safety issue there. I would like to see the safety commission address that. I don't feel qualified to be addressing that. I feel that I do represent people and the people, looking at your petition here, it looks like the majority are not interested in having this sidewalk. Then I say, fine. I would like to see it on a major corridor like TH 101. I live off of TH 101. I'd like to see one out there. This is all I have. Mady: I have no further comments. Schroers: If I can just touch on one more thing. There is not consistency within the city as far as how the residents. feel on any given issue. You can take one neighborhood and they'll feel one way about a specific issue and the other neighborhood will feel exactly opposite on the same issue and this creates problems for the City to operate. From a maintenance point ,e view and from trying to set up a plan on where you're going to remove sn(~ and where you're going to mow and all this. What you end up doing is hop scotching here and there and everywhere and you try to come up with an Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 15 ",....., economical and efficient way to operate and without a plan and a consistent set throughout the city, it's really difficult to operate the city and from a maintenance point of view, it's just really hard when you don't have a consistent plan and I think that's what our trail system had intended from the beginning was to connect major areas and also to have somewhat of a flow and a consistency that that's going to get people where they need to go and it's also going to be able to operate efficienty. What we're having to do, because all neighborhoods come in with different ideas, is just address each issue separately and it's a difficult way to operate. I guess that's all I have to say about that. Mady: Are you looking for a recommendation? Hoffman: A motion, correct. Mady: Is there a motion? Lash: I'll make a motion that the Park and Rec reconsider their previous recommendation on putting the trail on Devonshire through Curry Farms by removing that and accepting the fee from the developer to go into our trail fund. Erhart: I'll second that. ~ Lash moved, Erhart seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to reconsider the previous recommendation of putting a trail on Devonshire Drive through Curry Farms by removing it and accepting trail dedication fees from the developer to go into the trail fund. All voted in favor except Mady who opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1. Mady: Just a second Todd. First off, I'd like to apologize to the Commission for letting it get out of hand on that item. I think you all know that trails are very, very serious to me and I guess I come from the school where government sometimes has to look out for the well being of it's citizens and I firmly believe in this situation, if these residents had been approached with the idea from the very start that a sidewalk was a positive thing instead of a negative thing, it may have been different but unfortunately it's approach has, why do you want to have this thing that's going to chew up your yard. That's the way it happens I guess and so. ,.... Schroers: I don't think anyone disagrees with you on the safety issue of that. It's just obvious. It's black and white. It's much more safe on a sidewalk than it is in the street. There's no question about that but the whole deal is that we're here to represent the community and what they want and when you've got the whole neighborhood telling you that they don't want it, we can't shove it down their throat. It just doesn't work. Robinson: But who tried to talk them out of a sidewalk at some certain stage? Are you implying that... Mady: I'm just stating that there's been a lot of, at the trail referendum there was a lot of bad information put in the paper. Some fairly negative Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 16 comments were made and this has happened within the city over the last f(-, years. The last number of years but it's unfortunate that the negative information, negative feelings of people seem to make the paper. You know letters to the editor and things more so than people who are positive. I look at survey. What was it? I don't remember off hand. 74% of the people want trails in the city yet every time we try to put a trail in someplace, the people who are being impacted in their yards, always say no. We'll never have one. We reallv won't so I don't even know anYmore where it's going.. . Lash: Maybe what people are saying is they don't want them in their yards. They want them other places. 74% possibly are saying they want them on the...but that's not in their yard. Mady: But we had the people on Lake Lucy Road, which is a major road, say no we don't want them here but yet I think everv one of us will admit that's a major road. We're going to have the s~me situation I'm sure when it comes to TH HH. Even some of the people I'm sure on Minnewashta are going to say no. I guess my fear is that we'll never have a trail situation because to me I know, through my neighborhood. At the last trail referendum. I talked to a lot of my neighbors and they were firmly against the referendum because Frontier Trail was going to get a trail but they wanted it in the rest of the city. It was yes, do it but not in my yard. Everybody, I'm sure there's going to be a lot of people who feel that way and if that's the feeling, how are we supposed to get it done if every time the citv savs to do it and then the residents sav we don't want it here specifi~ally but we do want it, how are we ever going to get it done? 1-' don't know that I guess. Hoffman: One possible solution Jim is that originally this was part of the development contract but that did not get communicated with the residents. That happens in the same instance when there's a park located within other developments. Lake Susan Hills West, Chanhassen Hills, the developer says yeah, there's a beautiful park there. Nice wooded area. It will be an asset to your home and then when they find out what's going in there, they don't always agree with that. They form preconceptions before they find out the facts. If we can work more closely with those developers and make sure they pass that information on a little more clearly, we could alleviate these problems in the future. Mady: I agree 100%. Lash: I don't feel that these particular residents had any negative data coming in. I think most of them have lived in town probably weren't even here when the referendum went through so I don't think that they had any negative things. I think their problem began when they were not informed of it in the beginning and that had nothing to do with the city or the Park and Rec Commission. It had to do with their developer but it's a problem that could be remedied by the city, by the Park and Rec and by the City Council and I think therefore then it came back to be our responsibility to try and see if we could solve a problem that they were having. Mady: Okay, let's move on. """"" Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 17 ~ REVIEW 1989 TENNIS PROGRAM. Hoffman: You can all breathe easy now. These next 3 items will be much more fun. This year as part of the discussion that took place with the two different community service organizations that serve the City of Chanhassen, Minnetonka and Chaska, we agreed and negotiated to take over the tennis lesson program with the facility here at Chanhassen, the elementary school at City Center Park and then the two new facilities at Meadow Green and North Lotus Lake Park. We advertised to hire a tennis specialist. A person who would coordinate and not only coordinate but teach these lessons. Somebody who had the qualifications and we hired Mary Johnson for the summer. Mary did an excellent job in the program. We had good attendance from the participants. Quite a few people carne out for these lessons and the dollar figures as well. It's meant to be operated as a self supporting program and that turned out to be true in this case. If there's any questions or suggestions on how we may improve this program, I will take those at this time. Mady: Do we pat Todd on the back for making money with this program? Robinson: Did he? Mady: He made a hundred bucks. $103.85. ~. Lash: Did you say Lori's in Vegas with that money? Hoffman: For those of you who don't know, Lori's is attending a conference in Washington State for the next 2 weeks so that's why she is absent. Schroers: I just think that this relfects a good job done by the administration and I would recommend that we continue the program for next year. Robinson: YOIl might want to look at hiring a teenage boy next year. Mady: Anybody specific Curt. Robinson: I'm kidding. I really am and I think it takes a person like Mary Johnson that relates good with the kids and also knows tennis where a teenage boy would not do that. Hoffman: Mary did an excellent job of not only relating with the kids but with the parents as well. That's important in this type of program. Mady: I know my daughter participated up here at the City Center Park with Mary. She loved it and I was concerned because she doesn't know anything about tennis and my experience with tennis is about as much as my experience with soccer, and I do coach that but she had an excellent time with it and learned a lot of fundamentals so staff deserves a pat on the back and I think Mary deserves a pat on the back for making a very successful program out of it. "..... Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 18 Hoffman: Something to take note of there is the participant numbers at Meadow Green and North Lotus. Even though those are brand new tennis courts, the participant levels are very, very low when compared with City Center Park. ......" REVIEW 1989 OKTOBERFEST PLANS. Hoffman: Item 6 has to do with Oktoberfest. Last year with the development of the 1988 Oktoberfest, due to the canceled fireworks display for the 4th of July, we needed some event to shoot those fireworks off so we created Oktoberfest. It carne off to be a very successful and positive community event for all those attending. It was just thought that we should continue that in 1989. In an attempt to alleviate some of the work load. Last year we just kind of jumped into it with both feet and a large portion of the City staff worked this event and were able to serve those people that were there with the food and beverage, etc.. This year we looked to get our new community groups more involved. As a result of that, the Chanhassen Lions will be the major sponsor of this event and also the new Chanhassen Jaycees and the Chanhassen Snow Snooper Snowmobile Club and possibly the Chanhassen Women of Today will all be involved as co-sponsors and then there are also other community groups. Recycling organzation which is a community group dealing with this recycling in town will be there to answer questions. Representatives of the South Shore Senior Center will be there to answer questions as well as representatives of tr Community Center Task Force will be there to talk to the citizens so it ......" really should be entertaining as well as informational evening for all those attending. Mady: I guess I'm this time around. so I'm glad to see real expensive. glad to see that the City doesn't have to give away food It was a nice touch to get people there the first year we're not doing it continuously because that gets to be Hoffman: We did charge last year for this. For the Oktoberfest. It was the 4th of July which is the ongoing. The 4th of July is the ongoing community picnic which is free of charge. This was a pay fee basis last year. Lash: Is this flyer going out in the mail? Hoffman: Yeah. The orange flyer will be inserted in the villager the week of the 21st. It's also the center layout of the new fall brochure. Robinson: This is a neat, I got this someplace last night or yesterday in vUUuTusomething. Hoffman: It will all get to you sooner or later here. Robinson: I was really impressed at the way this is layed out. I mean there's little activities allover. The snow scoopers are involved in here. The Chanhassen Jaycees have got the popcorn and then the caramel &,&x(%&4'&.$pe hamburgers and brats and beer and there's ......" Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 19 .1"'" activities all day long starting with a softball tournament. I think it's going to be a neat deal. Erhart: All the way to midnight. Hoffman: These events, they continue to get easier to organize and I don't have to worry about the people who are going to man them and actually do the work that evening and I'm sure all the food will come off very well. As far as commissioners go, we are not in dire need of helping out that night. It's a night for you to enjoy as well and if you can lend a hand at any time, feel free. REVIEW 1989 HALLOWEEN PARTY. ,.... Hoffman: For those of who attended in the past, either the Halloween Party or the Easter Egg Hunt, any of those, they've grown considerably in size. The number of participants over the years and there's always the problem of trying to organize not all these kids but all the parents as well in telling them or trying to persuade them to do the activities which you have arranged. To try to eliminate some of that confusion, my thinking is we have to make these activities as walk through and as self instructional as possible. That's why the change in the Halloween party is corning about this year. In the past we had the three organized activities. We tried to separate everybody into groups and that's just real hard to do. This year we're going to have two basic activities. Trick and treating and then a horse ride, a hayride. It will be the same people that did the hayride at Oktoberfest last year. Diamond, the name escapes me at the time, over in Eagan. They'll be out here to do that portion of it. What we need to do is create, decorate, and then staff or man in costume characters these hallways where the children come in. They pick between a scarey hallway or a real nice easy happy hallway, depending on if they're young kids or they're old kids. Then their parents can accompany them down here and they pick up their tricks or treats. Then they go out in back and get refreshments. Hot chocolate refreshments and that type of thing and wait to take their hayride. Robinson: Back it up. Where's that hayride going to be? Hoffman: At the elementary school. The hay ride will take place in the back. Right in back in the playground area in the park. Robinson: So they're just going to make a loop of 2-3 minutes? Hoffman: Yeah. They'll make a loop and it will be dark by that time so they'll make a loop and unload and pick up another batch. Mady: They'll be looking for a shovel detail. ,.... Robinson: It's good fertilizer. Hoffman: The thing that has evolved over the years, when this first started it was fairly scarey and the little kids did not like to attend but Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 20 the older kids like something a little more exciting so we thought the ider of the scarier hallway and then the, what did we call them? The trail of good natured ghosts and then the evil witches, dark and mysterious passage. Erhart: So you have something for both? Hoffman: Yeah, something for both and this one, the commissioners we will need a lot of assistance in setting up. Decorating and designing those hallways and then dressing up in either that good or spooky costume to hand out candy. Robinson: And what date is this? On Saturday? Hoffman: No, it's on Halloween night. Tuesday, October 31st. 6:00 to 8:00 at the Chanhassen Elementary School, 5th Grade and under. The cost this year is $2.00. They pre-register up here at City Hall. It's sponsored by the Chanhassen Volunteer Fire Department who comes out and Fritz is doing a very active role in creating all sorts of sound effects and that type of thing for the activity and the firemen dress up and have some fancy costumes and then also the Chanhassen area businesses are solicited and we annually collect upwards of $400.00 to fund this event. They think it's very worthwhile to get those kids out of the neighborhoods for those kids who don't, that kind of traditional trick or treating does not appeal to them. Robinson: It seems like there's bigger attendance very year. Is that ~ true? Hoffman: Yes. These have leveled off to about 300 to 400 participants for both this and the Easter Egg Hunt. Erhart: Also less children are going door to door because of the safety issue. Hoffman: Any comments on that? Mady: Just hit us up again in October with a reminder Todd. Hoffman: We certainly will. Lash: I assume we don't have a meeting that night? Hoffman: I assume if it is, we'll have the meeting there. Madv: I talked to Lori about our meeting schedule and she's not planning on ~nother meeting this month and potentially another one in October. Hoffman: I'm sure we can plan around that. We should really give you one evening off in October if we would ask you to be at this one and that would work out nicely for all of us. .."." Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 21 ,.... COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS: Schroers: I don't really have a presentation but I have some information I guess you would call it. I was talking wi th the owner of Chanhassen- Bai t and Tackle and he was aware that in our park development plans we had included an archery range as something we've been talking about for a long, long time and he's wondering why we're unable to get anything accomplished as far as putting in some kind of facility. He feels that he is losing business from sales of archery equipment and accessories to other communities that are providing a place to shoot. He felt that not everyone in town is a ball player or a tennis player and that the city hasn't been doing a lot to provide any kind of facility for the outdoor sportsmen type of individual and he would very much support and be in favor of getting an archery facility in the city as soon as it's practical and as soon as we can get to it. We all realize that it's pretty much too late for this season. Saturday the archery season starts and people wouldn't be using the range a lot bnt for the coming season, if we could work that into onr plans of summer.. He felt that through response he's received from his customers, that there wOllld be a lot of interest in this area. "'" Hoffman: Larry, just a comment on that. Lori received a call from a person who was looking for a archery range the other day and I receive those calls every couple weeks or months throughout the summer. We've always tossed around the idea of somewhere inbetween the two barns at Lake Ann and down towards the wooded area there. That area would accommodate this type of activity. It's not used for picnicing. There's no traffic in that area. There's parking accessible. Dale is using it more and more for storage of equipment and black dirt and gravel and that type of thing but I think we can probably solve this fairly quickly if I just went out there and kind of talked with Dale on it. I know yourself have gone and looked at archery ranges in other communities to get an idea of what it takes. Do we need a chainlink fence down the side or what do we need for safety aspects and it's a low budget item so let's just get it on line. Schroers: Okay, I would very much like to be included in that. I'll be at your disposal whenever it's convenient for you. I would enjoy getting involved with that project. Robinson: We should. Boy, we've been talking about this for 2 or 3 years now and like you said, the cost is minimal. Let's quite talking and let's get something by next spring. We bring it up and then forget about it and nobody brings it up. Lash: Is it something you think we could already do this fall? If it's minimal. Mady: The problem is, the archers are going to be spending all their free time now in the woods. The bulk of the archers because they're deer hunters. ,-.... Schroers: It is somewhat of a seasonal type of activity. It's a very few people shoot outdoors in the middle of the winter so it's not used then but as it warms up in the spring, there are people that just enjoy archery Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 22 through the warm season and up until the middle of September and even continuing into October. A lot of people, when they're going out to hunt like to just stop for a few minutes and take a couple of shots to tune up before they get in their stand so it's something that I anticipate would get used from May through October and into November probably. ...." Mady: Todd what we might do then is, a good source would be the Minnesota Bow Hunters Association. Would probably be a source to contact with getting information on a safe range. If you have trouble getting a hold of them, I can probably get you information on how to get a hold of them. Because what we're basically talking about is some Excelsior bales probably, maybe back drop for a safe range and not necessarily a fenced area but a safe area. Schroers: I've been to several ranges and in the back, what they have for a back drop. In Bloomington off of Normandale, they have a swamp. Not many people in the summertime go wandering around in the swamp so that's reasonably safe. Other places like in the City of Plymouth they have a large berm. It's just basically a hillside. That is a pretty safe situation also. I've not seen an archery range or been on one that's fenced. Mady: I haven't either. I remember the archery range by my house in South Minneapolis at Lake Nokomis was simply straw bales sitting ont in the middle of the park toward the lake. It wasn't a safe situation but they didn't experience a problem but I guess safety should be a primary conce~~ too. I think we can do it, you're talking probably 3 or 4 piles of Excelsior bales so they have a place to set their targets and 50 yards maybe. Lash: But you don't want to have it right in front of the woods or there may be somebody... Schroers: No. You need it to be open. You need some visibility behind unless you have a berm or a backstop. Hoffman: I would anticipate that we would put this off until next year to look into all these different questions so we can do a quality job when we do it. Also, I would anticipate that we'd probably have to do some amending to the ordinance, not only to the city ordinance of shooting a firearm b~t also to the Lake Ann ordinance of not having a firearm within a city park and that would have to be addressed at Council. Schroers: And I think there's also something about being north of TH 5. Lash: Maybe Lake Ann isn't necessarily the spot. Mady: We might want to look at the new settling pond by Lake Susan Park might be the opportunity too. I guess it's something we should... Lash: Isn't there one going in down there? --' Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 23 ,...., Mady: I was trying to remember. Where did we say we were going to do this? Schroers: We didn't really say. We just kind of poked around. Possibly at Lake Ann. Possibly at Lake Susan so we're doing the same thing now that we have been doing. Everybody's in agreement that. I haven't heard any opposition from the staff or anyone on the commission that we shouldn't have an archery range. It's just we can't decide where to put it and to get off the ground and get going on it but I agree it's too late in the year right now to think about one for this fall but I just wanted to bring it up and keep it fresh in our mind and let's get it put in our priorities somewhere so that by maybe June or July of next year it's in operation. Mady: Can I make a recommendation that we put this item on our first meeting in November agenda and that commissioners take the opportunity late in October to go out to Lake Susan because they are doing the major ground work right now out there so we should have a pretty good idea of the lay of the land once they've got that done. So I would guess they're going to have a lot of that dirt moved by the end of October. Also take a good look at Lake Ann. Robinson: Or any other. ,.... Mady: I guess those are the two large community parks that we've got. Rice Marsh Lake might not be so bad. Robinson: I don't know. I just threw that out. Mady: Well, they have the play equipment there. Hoffman: The neighborhood opposition would shoot that one down. Schroers: That and accessibility. Rice Marsh Lake is hard to get to. Robinson: But I would agree with you and I don't think we should put it off until next year Todd. I think we should be asking these questions and looking into it right now and I agree with Jim that gees, put it on the agenda for November and let's not be putting it off anymore or we're going to miss it next year. Mady: Because we're only talking about a couple hundred dollars total. Schroers: I think we might be talking a little more than that. Lash: If we do much berming or something. I could be mistaken here but I thought I read one time that an archery range was going in at Lake Susan. Did that get cut off? Schroers: I think you read that in the minutes probably because it was ,......, discussed and we had allocated $1,000.00 in our budget. Robinson: Yeah, I think we even did that one time. Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 24 Schroers: Oh yes. I remember that. We budgeted $1,000.00 for the installation of a range. Lash: So it's not in the plan right now for Lake Susan? ....." Mady: Don't remember. Hoffman: It's not shown there. Schroers: It's somewhere in there for $1,000.00 in the budget, I know that. Robinson: Well let's just pursue it again. Lash: But if we put it down there, it would seem like we wouldn't have the problem with the ordinance or the firearms north of TH 5 would we? Hoffman: That one I don't think is the major one. It's the ordinance restricting firearms within the city or within a public park. Schroers: Maybe staff can research what we currently have in writing or proposed for that range and then bring that information to the November meeting. Hoffman: I will assure that this is a little more dear to mv heart than Lori's and I'll pick up on it and bring a report back to the~Commission ~ first meeting in November. Mady: And that, wasn't a negati ve comment on Lori. I guess I have a commission presentation. This weekend, the school playground facility went in on Sunday morning. A bunch of parents were up there. I was up there helping. It's a beautiful structure. It's a metal structure. Painted metal structure. It works great. It was difficult keeping kids off it initially. We put it in Sunday morning. Started at 7:00. We were done by 2:30. Everything except the cementing in the posts and getting the pea rock spread and that was done Monday morning. They let it a day to set up and today the kids were up there in force. I mean allover this thing. There is one problem with it. The tunnel that goes from one section to another is not in place. It got shipped to Circle pines instead of Chanhassen. We got 2 galvanized slides and they got our circle bridge but I guess that will be done this week hopefully but it looks beautiful and the kids, gosh, you can tell they love it. One thing we do need to be concerned up there. Everything west of the new structure is still on the old dirt and what little sand there is is basically clay. Since I helped a lot in digging out some of the old, putting some of the old structures back in place, we had to reset two, it's real rock hard dirt there so I don't know who's responsibility it is there. I know the school is real tight on funds this year so I don't know how we can work on that but we should be concerned about the safety in that equipment because it's probably going to stay in place. Pea rock looks like it's better than anything else. If you really want to do a nice thing for the kids, it's-, funny how kids always find out a situation and make something great to play on. Since we had all this pea rock piled up in the parking lot, these kids Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 25 ,...... were riding their bikes up right into it and then they'd jump off their bike into this pea rock. They were having a great time. I don't know if it's the safest thing in the world but they were having a great time with it. It might have been a nuisance but they looked like they were having great fun with it but it looks really nice and if you get the opportunity, because it's different than anything else we've got in the city. We usually go with wood structures and I know personally I prefer wood structures in a natural area because it kind of blends better but since that was all painted stuff up there anyway, it kind of blends real well and it's a fairly good sized structure that the APT got a heck of a buy for Ie grand. I mean they got more stuff than we would ever dream of getting. They got it on sale, cash price. They bent more arms to get that stuff. It's wonderful. Hoffman: Any other commission presentations? ADMINSTRATIVE SECTION. Hoffman: Any questions? Discussion? Mady: Only one thing on the Lake Ann beach. I talked to Colleen Klingelhutz a couple of weeks ago I guess and she asked about the Lake Ann beach. She had some concerns about it and I told her that the Commission ~ doesn't really review the Lake Ann beach too much. We don't get real involved in that because the Minnetonka Community Ed handles the life guard situation up there. She indicated some kind of concern with how much the beach was being allowed to be used and life guards weren't being, I wasn't too sure what the whole thing was. I told her what she should do is contact staff. Hoffman: I've talked to her. Mady: Maybe we can do it because we do definitely want that beach to be the best beach in the whole southwestern part of the city. That's what I always say it is. Hoffman: Her main concern was on the children's area there. That MCS or Minnetonka Community Service personnel would like that restricted to where they allow the children to play. The toddlers to play to a small area so they can keep it contained and watch them. At times on weekends that gets very crowded and it seems like it would be better to spread it out so you can have some more space for those people to use but it's a recommendation that's been in our packet from Minnetonka Community Services over the year. It's re-evaluated each year and it seems to be working. Schroers: I would have a comment in support of our beach. I was down there probably on the average of 3 nights a week all summer long and I felt that the life guards conducted themselves very professionally for young ~. people. They were attentive. They were on top of what was going on. I saw no horse play or any activity that would take away from the safety. I think that the area looked well maintained and we really have a jewel in Lake Ann. It is the nicest place to swim that I know of and I just hope we Park and Rec Commission Meeting September 12, 1989 - Page 26 /1 I'l. .....", keep up the good work down there and I hope that we realize and are aware of what a really nice facility we have there and do everything that we can to protect it. Hoffman: Just a side note on the raft, which was destroyed this spring. We are taking a look at soliciting bids or just getting some price estimates, preliminary price estimates on what that would take to replace that. That would be the same people. Minnetonka Dredging that did it the last time. We also contacted the Citv of Shorewood. They have 3 floating rafts which they have taken out of th~ir beaches because they had an injury off of one of those but that was due to shallow water. We may have the opportunity to purchase one of those as well to use at Lake Ann beach. There were many requests received this year to have that raft back in there. Mady: Anything else? Robinson: Just back in the mission statement here. Are we going to address the mission statement again? Hoffman: For the Commission? Robinson: Yes. Hoffman: Last time we left that we would take a look at some mission statements from other communities and at some time in the future corne ba~ with some proposals of what ours might be. Robinson: Okay. Robinson moved, Lash seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 8:59 p.m.. Submitted by Lori Sietsema Park and Rec Coordinator Prepared by Nann Opheim 1 .."",