Loading...
PRC 1989 10 10 3 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING OCTOBER 10, 1989 I.""" vice Chairman Boyt called the meeting to order. MEMBERS PRESENT: Dawne Erhart, Jan Lash, Sue Boyt, Curt Robinson, and Ed Hasek MEMBERS ABSENT: Jim Mady and Larry Schroers STAFF PRESENT: Lor i SietsePla, Park and Rec Coordi na tor and Todd Hoff Plan , Recreation Supervisor. APPROVAL OF of the Park subPlitted. carried. MINUTES: Robinson moved, Lash seconded to approve the Minutes and Recreation Cop~ission meeting dated September 12, 1989 as All voted in favor except Sue Boyt who abstained and the motion REVIEW APPRAISAL FOR CARRICO PROPERTY. Public Present: Carl Carrico Frank Cardarelle , ,.... sietsema: Basically you have the information in your packet of the three appraisals that were done. At this point what we need to decide is whether we're goi ng to Plake a recoPIPlenda tion to Ci ty Counc i 1 to proceed wi th condeITtna tion proceed i ngs or not to. One way or the other. We need to Plake recoPlmendation. Carl Carrico is in the aud~.ence. Do you have any cOPIPlents that yon want to Plake? Carl Carrico: I haven't seen all the appraisals. SietsePla: Well you saw the first one for $58,000.00. Carl Carrico: Yeah but he agreed that wasn't an appraisal. I haven't seen the one. SietseITla: The second one caPle in at $85,000.00. Carl Carrico: Okay. Sietsema: Jim isn't going to be here tonight. He asked me to make a couple COPIDlents. Basically he feels we should go for it. There's not other property really available that's going to serve this purpose. It's the luck of the draw as far as what your condentnation cOPIDlission is going to consist of but he feels that it's a worthwhile piece to pursue. , II"'" Erhart: Do we have to, at the time of condemnation then, have the money to purchase it? SietseITla: Yes. Park and Rec Cop~ission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 2 .....,,; Boyt: Will the money be available? Sietsema: It depends on, we may have to ask the Council to kick in out of the general budget if it were more than what our fund could afford. Robinson: My opinion is, I started reading this 85 page document and I got to where it was talking about the price and I quit. My opinion is that it's too expensive and I think we should drop it now. Lash: I'm not ~eal familiar with this whole thing and the whole process but I tried to cOPle up with what I thought would be, I don't know how this court or whatever it is operates, but if they caPle up wi th a plid-pr ice between the City'S appraisal and the owner's appraisal, you'd come up with about $195,000.00 which is 1 i ke way Plore than I guess I 'PI cOPlfortable paying so I would agree wi th Cur t to drop it al thongh I 'PI wondel: i ng if there's the posibility of jnst acquiring a portion of it and not getting the whole 11 acres. Getting as much as we think we could afford or otherwise back in the packet there's somewhere they have a real estate picture of another piece. Maybe you guys looked at this. I don't know but it had Lot 11, Block 1 in Lake Luch Highlands. 2.5 acres. Of course it's a lot sPlaller than wha t we're looking at but that's $47,500.00. That would be sOPlething for the neighborhood... In all good consc ience, I don't think I could go for that one. Boyt: Are we discussing the Carrico propel:ty and whether or not we want ....-I recoPlIllend condepmation? Hasek: ...1 think we need a park but I don't think we need it that bad though. I think jllSt looking over the prices and talking about it with Mark a little bit, first of all the appl:aisal that they got...they're all in Eden prair ie. We're in Chanhassen. The siPlple fact is that currently it is outside the MUSA line and...but I don't see the point in going through the hassle...and I don't think we need to let this particular landowner... Erhart: I would go along wi th that. I don't feel cOPlfortable wi th the property. I'd like to earmark something. I realize we don't have anything in the area but I'd like to find anothel: piece of property or a few different pieces of property and where they join in the Pliddle, I'd like to earPlark that and at the tiple of developPlent, ask for those land dedications and we won't have to pay for sOPlething. Get it through dedication at the tiple of developPlent. Hasek: I think we can do exactly that if we go across CR 117. Between there and CR 42. Spot a park in there, a decent size park, I think we can cover the radius for a neighborhood park in that area. Have a trail down the side of CR 117, if it's not taken away. A trail on Lake Lucy Blvd...so we should have a way to get in there if that doesn't disappear. -- Boyt: I'PI not thrilled with the piece of property. I don't think it's i....,.,; wonderful piece of property for a park so I 'PI not going to recol'llIllend condepmation. Park and Rec COllllllission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 3 ,J!"" SietseIlla: I need a reCOI1Ullendation one way or the other. It's ul tiIllately up to the City Council. They authorized the appraisals to be done. Robinson: Based on the opinion of the COI1\Iltissioners, I would recolllIllend that we drop pursuing the Carrico property. Hasek: Why don't we extend that just a little bit if we can to...we spot another park in another location and have staff investigate that. Make that a part of this so it doesn't look as though, it doesn't seem as though we're just dropping the issue because I don't think we are. We're still looking. Is that alright? Robinson: Sure. I think we've got to do that anyway. I don't think we're going to drop it because we don't want a park there. SietseIlla: So the Illotion was Illade by Cnrt to drop pursnal of the CaJ:rico property and to continue to look for a neighborhood park property in the area of Lake Lllcy Highlands and Pheasant Hills. Hasek: Second. Robinson Illoved, Hasek seconded that the Park and Recreation COIlII1tission ,...., recoIlUllend to drop pursuing the Carrico property and to continue to look for \ a neighborhood park property in the area of Lake Lucy Highlands and Pheasant Hills. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Carl CaJ:rico: Thank you for Illaking a decision. I've been fooling with this piece of property since 1971 and 1'111 tired of fooling with it. I know the price seems high to everybody but it's something that I have offers froIlI people that will buy the property for that so 1'111 not trying to, I don't have a I1lask on or a gun but I appreciate you at least giving, let's get rid of it. Thank you. PLACEMENT OF ARCHERY RANGE. , """ Hoffman: Two weeks ago I said this was more near and dear to my heart but I have to let you know, Lori did most of the footwork but was nice enough to let Ille bring the report back to you just to Illake us look like we're working together here. We sat down with Scott Harri of Van Doren, Hazard and Stallings and Lori asked him to look into a site in both Lake Ann and Lake Susan to see which would be the best potential si te. The I1lap was not included in your packet but there's one at your desk there now this evening. The original site we talked about. for the IlIOSt part was behind the barn at Lake Ann. This large of archery range just wouldn't fit in tha t area and it seemed to be Illore appropr iate in Lake Susan. Larry did stop by today and we drove out there to take a look at the area. That teIllporary access road does go right through there at the present so you can't see exactly what the lay of the land is but you can get a good idea of how it would look and it does allow for open visibility. There's Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 4 ~ parking fairly close by but it does put the archery range off on it's own-' away frool the major areas of activity in the park allowing for that safety factor. As I indicated there, the tiITle fraITle for developITlent would be sOITletiITle early SUITlIller to mid-suPlIller next year and be finished by that tiple when ITIOSt of the bow hunters want to get out and practice. Robinson: Will Dale put that berm in there when they're landscaping or doing the grading? Hoffman: Correct. Yeah. can have theITI put that in. If we make a decision to go ahead with it, we It would be a minor adjustment. Hasek: The question I have is, I know that when you're hunting deer the object is to get within, you'd like theITI r:ight off the end of the bow. Hoffman: We do not need a 100 yard range. It will be 50 yards allowing for 40 yard shots wOl1ld be about the ITlaxiITluITI that we would build for. Hasek: Would you want to leave it against the wetland then and away from the lake as far as possible? In other words, leave the berITI in place and take 50 yards? Hoffman: Yeah, we'd take a look at it. Have Scott take a look at it to see what would be the best position in there for a range half that length. ,. Hasek: The other question I have is, is there any ball activity on this -' field that might conflict with somebody wanting to be out here? Because I've shot bow before and I know that it doesn't take a whole lot to deflect that arrow and the new bows they've got now have a heck of a lot more punch than the old ones that I used to shoot and that arrow may go a ways. It's a 100 yards here and that's probably unlikely but it looks like it's a little closer than maybe it could be or should be. Hoff Plan : Sure. it back towards tiITles when both siPlul taneously. That may be one reason to take the archery range and pull the lake as far as possible because there would be many that ballfield and the archery range would be used Lash: You should you put SOITle signage up so people know what's going on? Hoffman: Yes. The design for it would be to sign the ar:ea there. On the top of the hill and if you walk to the edge of the hill and look down, ther:e's still considerable distance that allows for: open viewing and then you can sign the area and also put up a, not a chainlink fence but a bollard with a swing chain in the ITliddle of it just to designate that area. I also believe there's the memo from Jim Chaffee attached. One of his first concerns would be city ordinance not allowing this without being amended. It ends up that there's somewhat just a minor loophole in our park ordinance that does not specifically list weapons. It lists firearms, bb guns, explosives, anything of that nature but it does not list a weapo~ which a bow is defined as so we don't have to go thr:ough the process. ...",. \. ~. . Park and Rec COfllIl1ission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 5 '" Sietseflla: Staff has recofllfllended that this go to the Public Safety COfl~ission though just for their review and to ~ake sure that they don't have a problefll with it too as long as it is public safety involved. Hasek: Does that ~ean that I could discharge a bow in downtown Chanhassen? Hoff~an: In a park. This is under a park. Sietseflla: If it would have been at Lake Ann, it would have been north of TH 5 and then there would have been a proble~. But it's south of TH 5 and so the rules are ~ore loosely defined. Hasek: Do you have to get a per~it to hunt with a bow in the city of Chanhassen? Sietse~a: I think so. Hasek: Even if it's south of TH 5 because it's not a firear~? I ~ean it's a good idea to get a pend t frofll the owner but I know that in SOflle areas of the city you need a perfllit period. You have to go to the City to get a perflli t. Erhart: They do whenever they COflle over to us wi th their perfld ts. ."..... Hofffllan: Have you sign it. \. Sietse~a: I believe that you do but I wouldn't swear by it. Hasek: That's just a question that ca~e up after reading through this stuff. Lash: So we don't have to do anything about the ordinance then right because it doesn't say... Hoff~an: Correct. Sietseflla: Right. Boyt: Do we have a ~otion? Robinson: I ~ake a ~otion that we go for the archery range as proposed in the ~ap. Do we ~ake it 50 yards? I don't know a thing about this. Do you want that part of the ~otion? Should that be part of the ~otion? Boyt: Maybe staff can recofllItlend. Sietse~a: I think that the design standards of it can be left open and before anything is forfllally done, we'll co~e back with a final design plan for it so you don't have to include that. You ~ay want to include that you want to send it to Public Safety. ,.... ., Robinson: Yes. So Ploved. Park and Rec COIl\Illission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 6 Lash: Second. -,. Robinson Ploved, Lash seconded tha t the Park and Recreation COIlIIllission recoIl~end to place an archery range at Lake Susan Park and to refer the issue to the Pllblic Safety COIllIllission for their input. All voted in favor and the ~otion carried. DISCUSSION OF LAKE ANN PARK SHELTER. Sietse~a: The next ite~ is the Lake Ann Park shelter and as you recall, we had reCOIlllllended that $100,000.00 be set aside in the reserve fund for a park shelter at Lake Ann Park. Although that hasn't been for~ally approved by the City Council, I wanted to bring it up to your attention. If we want to have that done and be able to start that next year, we need to ~ake the design plans and get going on the process now. As soon as the budget is approved, if that's in there. Todd is in charge of handling all the group reservations and he's had a nu~ber of calls wanting a facility like that. HoffI1lan: Every call. SietseI1la: Every call wants a facility like that and we feel that that Illay be revenue generating as well. When you get sOIllething that nice in there. you should be able to charge something and bring so~e money in for it toe so if this is sOIllething we want to do, we've been talking about it since ....", I've started here which is about 6 years ago and I think that it's probably due if we want to do it. Hasek: I'd like to see us go ahead with it because it's the one thing I think that's really lacking out there is a...facility...it'd be nice to have a building to go along with that...ArboretuIlI are ITlagnificant. Boyt: Oh Lake Lucy is milch nicer. Sietse~a: Lake Susan. Boyt: Oh yeah, Lake Susan. SietseIlla: What this one was or iginally planned when we were subpti tting it for the LAWCON grant application, it was a two leveled walkout type facility that would have concession and restrooms or bath house in the baseIllent with like boat rental if we were to choose to get paddleboats or canoes and have that kind of rental out of the bottom and the upper portion would have an overlook of the lake screened in and then walk out the back and have a fireplace. You could use it in the winter for snoWIllobil ing. A snowmobile stop off place or cross country Skiing area. It would ~ake this park Illore Illul ti -seasonal as well as having a lot of use in the SUIllIller. ) Hasek: How milch would you rent that thing out? By the table or by the gr oup? .....", Hoffman: By the group. Park and Rec Co~~ission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 7 ".... Hasek: If a group came in and wanted only a quarter of that, they'd pay the whole price and you'd give it all to them? Hoff~lan: It would be the top picnic area por tion, yeah. You'd just rent it by the group per time. Boyt: Or it'd be one thing if it was just you and your family went there and it was open and you just use it? Hasek: Yeah but if somebody did rent it for a Saturday afternoon or whatever then they'd have the full use of it? Hoffman: Correct. Hasek: I'~I wondering if there isn't a way it can be designed so it can be broken into two parts in case you have sPlall groups so there's no conflict. Boyt: You could talk to the designer. Sietse~la: The a}~chi teet, yeah. I 'PI sure sO~lething like that could be designed into that. That might make it more useable too. Boyt: Any questions? I""" Robinson: would go? Are we talking placement of it yet? Have we deterntined where it Sietsema: The way the plan was, that we came up with before that we sub~d.tted would be built into the hill just to the west of the turn around area. There's al~lost a little opening in the trees right there and it would be built in there. That way it's away from the beach but still close enough to it so that you're close enough to all of the ~Iain activities of the park and then you could put the boat rental right out in front there. Robinson: But away from the ballfields? Sietsema: Right. It'd be definitely down by the beach. Down by that turn around area. Robinson: So it would be built into the hill so it would be facing north building it into there. Hoffman: Yes. It'd be a lower level that would come out to the bottom for the concession area, bathrooPls, lifeguard station and that would be an upper area that would COPle out. You'd want out the top part of the hill so it'd be a walkout. ,.... Lash: So what are we talking? Like $100,000.00 in the budget or sO~lething? Sietse~la: Right. We have $30,000.00. Park and Rec Cop~ission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 8 " Lash: That sounds like a lot. ...", Sietsema: The revenue potential is really there and you know, with the decrease in the entrance fee to Lake Ann Park and not charging the ball players anyPlOre, we're not Plaking any Ploney. We haven't got it all tallied up for the 1989 season but. Hoffman: Less than half of last year. SietsePla: It's really ptiniPlal. Last year it was astronoPlical because it was so hot, everybody wanted to be by the water. This year it was a more moderate season and. Hoff Plan : The fee was cut. Softball players didn't pay. Sietsema: And that had an effect on, we get our donations for the 4th of July from the businesses and with the fee only $2.00, they didn't need as many tickets or we didn't as much money so that whole thing is questionable whether that's going to be even worth paying a person at the gate to have a fee to go into the park anyway. And a fee for a structure like this could bring in the revenue that we're Plissing there to help offset the cost of the beach program. Lash: So how much of this do you think you could from... SietsePla: About $100,000.00 is what the estiITlated cost 2 years was for ...", this facility so it just depends on how many other things. If we want to make any additions, we just need to update the cost estimate and look at a Plore detailed plan. That's what with this Plotion to proceed with this, that's what I will be doing. Bringing back a Plore details in not only the design of it but in the cost of it as well and the location. Boyt: Okay. We need a PlOt ion to proceed. Sietsema: After the budget is approved. Robinson: You said that earlier. We subptitted sOPlething in August? Sietsema: Right. Robinson: Was it early? Sietsema: The legislation has been really weird this year on how the budget is to be prepared and to be adopted. I really don't understand all of the details of it but we were supposed to have had it done early only they didn't give us enough of the details to know how we were supposed to have prepared it so the budget preparation meetings for the City Council that they're going to be cutting and adding and amending to what staff and the COITIDtissions have recoPIDlended, is going to happen I think on Monday night. So it's a month or two down the road before it will actually be amended but I wanted to get this to you before it got lost in the shufflE . because as soon as that budget is approved, if the $100,000.00 in the ....", reserve stays in there, then we can be ready to just go and with this it Park and Rec COIIIITlission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 9 ,..... also makes the Council realize that this is a priority for us as they are preparing the budget. Hasek: What kind of a ITlotion do yon need? SietseITla: Just a Illotion to proceed wi th detailed plans for the park shelter at Lake Ann Park as soon as the budget is formally adopted. Hasek: So moved. Robinson: Second. Lash: Are you looking at electricity in there? SietseIlla: Yes. Lash: And running water? S ietseITla: Yes. Boyt: ...drinking fountain along the way. Erhart: I like the idea of...so we can rent it out to more than one party because not everybody's going to be big groups. ,....... Lash: Do yon have SOITle ki nd of idea of the si ze? I Illean capaci ty. SietseITla: I can give you a guys a copy of that plan. I've got SOITle upstairs and we will look at those again before we go any further with it to Illake slue that's what you want. I should have had it included in this. Hasek: Wasn't it like 20 x 40? Like a double garage. Sietsema: No, it was bigger than that. HoffITlan: Larger than this room. Hasek: Wider than this room is the question. HoffITlan: Larger than thi s rOOll1 yeah. Capaci ty of a couple hundred people probably. We have large company pi~nics anywhere from 100 to 400 people out there each SUITlIlIer. SietseITla: Each weekend. Hasek moved, Robinson seconded to direct staff to proceed with detailed plans for the park shelter at Lake Ann park"as soon as the budget is formally adopted. All voted in favor and the motion carried. JIll"" Park and Rec COI'IDlission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 10 ACCEPT CHASKA LIONS CLUB DONATION AND IDENTIFY POTENTIAL PROJECTS. ..."", Sietsellla: The next iteI'1 is the Chaska Lion's Club donation and I was going to just send this onto the City Council for their approval to accept the donation and I got to thinking that perhaps this should do something significant with, we've got a significant amount of money from the Lion's and we've put it into the reserve fund to match LAWCON grant funded projects. But there isn't anything that's identifiable that we can say, yeah Lions this is what you guys have contributed to. We can say that we've put it toward the huge project at Lake Susan Park which was very beneficial and we did get points for their contribution but there's nothing that specifically they can point to that they can say that they've done. I was going to try and add up how much we've gotten froPI thelll and it's a lot. Hofflllan: $61,000.00. Hasek: How about some...out at the park. Dugouts out at the ballpark? The Leg ion ball field. Can we get theITI to hang a sign on SOllie of those? Do those for us. I mean that's the kind of things they like to do. Put a little sign that says, this is built by the Lion's club. SietseIlla: I put SOllIe ideas in there just to star t, get SOI'le thought processes going. Running water up to the ballfield park shelter and we could put a plaque up there. We al so need to put a plaque and do SOllie ki......... of dedication cereJllony fo,; the Legion shel ter up there. We have never done that and I think that we... Hasek lllade a COITIDlent that wasn't audible on the tape. Boyt: I see the need this year that, our kids are playing soccer in Chaska. Even though we tried to share fields in Chanhassen, we don't have any lighted soccer fields. I'd like to see lights on the soccer field in Chanhassen sOllletiITle. I know they're real expensive. Maybe at Lake Ann. HoffItlan: The soccer field at Lake Ann would be the best one to go at there. The new soccer field. Boyt: Curt wanted lights for SOllie tennis courts that haven't gone in yet. Robinson: I'd just be satisfied with tennis courts. Hasek: Maybe they cOuld do SOIne grading for a single court over there for him. A flat area where... Robinson: There's no water in that ballpark shelter you're saying? HoffItlan: No water or electricity. ""'" Park and Rec COI'Ullission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 11 ~ SietseI'la: I would think that we'd be able to get water out there pretty easily for that a~ount of ~oney. Hoff~an: Water, electricity and a pay phone would be wonderful. Lash: What a~ount are you talking about? Sietse~a: $15,000.00 with the donation that we got this ti~e. We could do it a couple of different ways. We could put it in a fund...probably not a pay phone. I was thinking at the shelter by the ballfields for $15,000.00 I think we'd be able to do that. Lash: Are you talking about Lake Susan? SietseI'la: Lake Ann. Hasek: The only probleI'1 I see with that is identifying the difference between the Leg ion struction and the Lion's iI'lprOVelllents. If I were to want a project froI'1 either the Legion Club or the Lion's Club or any other group, I would want so~ething that would really kind of stand out. SOI'lethi ng I ike the dugouts would be one thing tha t would work. Bleacher s would obviously be another thing you could do or the boards for a hockey rink or so~ething really obvious like that. ,..... Boyt: That YOIl can stick a plaque on. Hasek: Yeah. If you do the illlprOVeI'lents to Lake Ann, I think they're absolutely needed out there but I think it's kind of unfair to spend their ~oney to i~prove a building that really so~ebody else put up. Boyt: They did have a picnic shelter down in the park on the ~arsh. Wasn't that a Lion's? Sietse~a: That was a Chanhassen Lion's that there used to be here in town but that doesn't exist anyplore. There's a new Chanhassen Lion's. Boyt: We always looked at war~ing houses. Hasek: A war~ing house would be another nice, a quality war~ing house. Robinson: Maybe you could ask thelll because I know they like specific things. Hasek: I think the trick is to give the~ a list of things. SietseI'la: Or if you wanted to continue to save that ~oney. Start a fund to build a concession shelter at the new facility down at Bandi~ere. On the Bandi~ere farm site on the youth complex. By the ti~e 4 years goes by, if we get these donations twice a year. ~ Hasek: That could do it. Park and Rec COlllPtission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 12 Sietsema: They've been donating money for 2 or 3 years and we've had $60,000.00. By the tillle that happens, we could have a signi ficant alllount of money built up in a fund to do something significant down there. ..."", Boyt: We had a facility I belonged to down in Florida. Their concession stand was two story wi th one story for storage and Li ttle League equiplllent "and a meeting space and downstairs was the full concession with a kitchen. Hasek: They also use it for, like to announce the gallles and stuff. I've seen that. Especially when they put in a 4 or 5 ball cOlllplex. Sietsellla: Or we could purchase the furni ture or equiplllent we need for the park shelter that was planned to be built next year. We could put in the fireplace or buy the tables or do something to equip that facility with the money that they've donated and that would be something that would be quicker. Get the project done sooner. Boyt: I'd rather Ilse SOllle of it now. SOlllething we can see and starting a fund to work towards... Lash: Maybe a fireplace and that's something that would look nice with a plaque on it. Sietsema: At the park shelter? Lash: Yes.. . ..."", Sietsellla: Because whatever we decide, any of these things probably won't get done until next year anyway. It won't be constructed until the 1990 season so now that we've decided that we want to build the Lake Ann shelter in the 1990 season, we could easily incorporate the furnishing of a nice fireplace or sOlllething with that and again, a plaque on the wall done nicely could be incorporated. Hasek: What's the best way to orchestrate that for us to pick a project and thelll lllake theITl aware of what is our intention wi th the llloney and then get their approval and consent? Sietsellla: Well what I would need is a recoIl\IT1endation to accept the llloney. To identify a project that we wanted to go towards and send that recoll\ITlendation to City Council and also to direct staff and to contact the Lion's Club and let thelll know what our plans are for the llloney. They've never asked us to do anything specific with the money. The only thing they asked us is not to spend it on maintenance or adlllinstrative costs. They want us to put it toward projects. That's the only stipulation that they've put on the money and they haven't really watched us to see how we're using it but we have been putting it toward LAWCON grant projects. Robinson: When you write them a thank you note, do you typically tell thelll what we're going to use it for then? ...." Sietsema: I usually put it that we put it in the LAWCON grant fund to be a contribute to the local share of the LAWCON grant and on the last one I let '- Park and Rec COllmdssion Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 13 ,.... theIlI know that we received the Lake Susan grant project. We received the grant for the Lake Susan project and those monies were spent for that project. Lash: Maybe there should be some sort of plaque put up there anyway saying SOllie. . . Sietsema: That's true too. Babe Ruth field or sOIllethi ng. to contribute to this. We could hang sOIllething on the backstop of the That donations frolll the Lion's Club helped . Robinson: I would like something to do with this new shelter. If we could really make that a heck of a nice place with a big fireplace or whatever with this extra money. I think that'd be neat. Boyt: Do you want to make a motion? I'd like included in the motion that we start a fund for soccer lights. Robinson: Maybe we set aside a percentage. keep growing like it has, I think this last $10,000.00. If it's going to go on and year, the year before was Hasek: Soccer lights. That's like 30 or 40 good sized flashlights... ,...., Erhart: How IlII1Ch are soccer 1 ights for one field? Hoffman: $60,000.00. Sietsema: The ballfield lights that you see on Field lout at Lake Ann were $60,000.00 2 years ago and it would be similar to that. Hasek: They'd probably cost.us $65,000.00... Boyt: So we'd have money left over. $60,000.00...available money coming in. Lash: Wait, I 'Ill not following what you're saying. Boyt: If we recollmlend spending the $15,000.00 for the fireplace and putting $60,000.00 towards lights. Lash: What $60,000.00. Boyt: Don't we have $60,000.00? S i etseIlla : No. Boyt: You spent it on Lake Susan? ~ SietseIlla: We've been spending money right along on LAWCON grant projects. Boyt: We don't always spend it so I didn't know. Park and Rec COI'llIlIission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 14 Sietsellla: It's gone into the reserve. Tha t' spar t of the reserve chunk."""""" There's already some. Boyt: It has to be... Sietsellla: Right. So what we've done in the past is put it into the reserve fund and it's gone toward LAWCON grant projects. Boyt: And we... Sietsellla: anything. Right. So now we have $15,000.00 that's not allocated for $15,850.00. Robinson: So if we gave a percentage, all I'm saying is let's take a percentage of that and put it towards certain projects and leave a percent in a kitty to build up for the big project. Lash: So say we spend... Sietsellla: $10,000.00 on the par k shel ter and $5,000.00 put in the south. Lash: And then took the reITlainder.. .percentage like 50-50 and start to build up the funds or something? Hasek: I think rather than setting them up, or giving it to the shelter I think what we ought to do is earITlark a proj ect and whatever it takes t~ get that project done. Then whatever is left over...otherwise you're going to try and spend $10,000.00 on a fireplace that may only cost $6,000.00. We might as well just set it up that way to start with. Earmarking whatever the cost to build the fireplace or whatever it is we decide to do. Lash: I think you were just throwing that out as an example. Boyt: Does someone want to make a motion for that? Hasek: I lllake a lllotion that we earlllark a portion of the Lion's Club contribution frolll pulltabs to a fireplace facility at Lake Ann for'the facility we're proposing out there and to set aside the rest in a fund to be earmarked for soccer lights at Lake Ann. Lash: So like 50% in soccer lights and 50% for some other future... Hasek: Oh, is that what you want to do? You want to split what's left over into two things? Not just stick it into one? Boyt: Yeah, we were talking about future funding that COllies in. Hasek: Do you want to start with future funding that comes or do you want to, just start? Boyt: Okay. We're dealing with money we have right now. ....", Park and Rec COJ'lIDlission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 15 .,..., Robinson: But then are you saying next year we also put 50% into the soccer lights and 50% to another project? Boyt: That's what we'll discuss next year. Robinson: What the percentage is going to be or... Hasek: I didn't put it all in percentages. I just said let's build a fireplace and stick the rest into a fund for soccer lights. When the next one comes through, we'll decide whether we want to put it all in a fund for soccer lights or think of another project. Boyt: Is there a second? I'll second it. Sietsema: Do you want me to read the motion? Boyt: No. Sietsellla: Okay, the Illotion was to recollIDlend that the Illoney be accepted and that a portion of the funds be set aside for the fireplace at the Lake Ann Park shelter and set up a fund for soccer lights at Lake Ann with the intention that a portion of future donations goes into the soccer light fund. ,,"'" Hasek Illoved, Boyt seconded that the Park and Recreation COllllltission recollIDlend that the Illoney be accepted frolll the Chaska Lion's Club and that a portion of the funds be set aside for the fireplace at the Lake Ann Park shelter and set up a fund for soccer lights at Lake Ann with the intention that a portion of future donations goes into the soccer light fund. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Lash: So you're sending them a nice letter right? Sietsema: I will be sending this onto City Council upon their approval. I'll send a letter with what we're doing. SITE PLAN REVIEW, OAKVIEW HEIGHTS. Public Present: Dean Johnson Mary McCawley Sietsema: I think that we're all aware of most of the history of this i telll. This i telll' s COllie before us on at least 2 or 3 other occasions. The changes in the proposal basically are that they are increasing the size of ~ the developrnent to 27.10 acres and are proposing to develop 11 high densi ty townhouses which alllount to 200 total uni ts. As can be seen on the si te plan, 5.4 acres is to be dedicated for park. They're proposing that 5.4 be Park and Rec COPIIllission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 16 " dedicated for parkland in the northeast corner of the site. """"" Robinson: 5.04 instead correct? Sietsema: 5.04. Yeah. 200 units creates the need for 5 to 7 acres of parkland and the reason that's such a wide range is because there isn't a people per unit figure standard that we have for multi-family so that's based on either between 2 to 2.8 people per unit in the multi-family dwelling. The 5 acres the developer is proposing to dedicate currently contains some severe topography including a ravine. He's proposing that with the amount of grading that needs to be done on this site, that that ravine could be filled in to bring the useable parkland or developable parkland to roughly 3 acres. Dean, do you want to make any of your COIlunen ts now? Dean Johnson: Yeah. We've got a transparency presentation. SietseIlla: He's got sorne designs on how that can work on the si te. Mary McCawley: This is the site. The original site was this rectangular shape that was the original 18.9 acres. Mr. Johnson has acquired this property in addition, 5 acres of which will be dedicated to park. The balance will be added onto this part of the project which will go for densi ty for the apar tIlIent uni ts that wi 11 be in the future. So these are the 8 acres that Lori was speaking with that are the additional purchase that was different than the last proposal. The ravine that Lori was -' speaking with is this area in here and our proposal is to take grading that will need to be done in this area and fill this ravine and part of this bermed area that you see along Kerber as you drive here. This would yeild about 2 1/2 contiguous acres. 2.7 contiguous acres of relatively flat land and this has been graded for the uses that would be proposed for this area. This is a possible design for the parks. There'd be a ballfield in this area and there's adequate space. There's a tennis court in this area that would be from off the cul-de-sac of the proposed townhome developIlIent. This area for totlot, parking and half court basketball court and there'd be additional space there. There'd be open skating area in this pond area and the slopes would yeild sledding hills and because of the contiguous area with the wetlands and open space here, there could be other winter sports such as cross country skiing and so on. There's presently as you know there's public land across the street that could be used as a cOIllpl iIllent to the other publ ic school property on the other side of Kerber. So that's what we're proposing for the park area. With that there's three- fifths of the area that could be developed. Boyt: I have a question. Does staff feel that filling in the ravine would be allowed? Are you going to kill every tree? Mary McCawley: No. If you go along Kerber and look up here, the trees down in this lower part, this is really pretty open. It looks like it was probably being filled at one time but this area here. The trees, there'~ few right along here and then down by the wetlands which is actually, thi~ is the whole si te. There's Illore trees here along Powers Blvd., if you lOOK froPI this way, along this wetlands here but if you go down Kerber, this Park and Rec COIlIDtlssion Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 17 ,.... area is really quite open. It looks like it's been... Boyt: Who on staff would recoIl~end that this be, is that Gary's job or Jo Ann's job? Sietsellla: I think both Jo Ann and Gary would look at it to see. Jo Ann has and I haven't heard frolll her that that would be a probleIlI one way or the other. Mary McCawley: This was a proposal done by a consultant to the City for looking at equiplllent on Dean's original proposal and in our proposal we used the sa~e types of use to show that they could fit on this new plan. Sietsellla: Show theIlI where this is loca ted though on the overall si te. Mary McCawley: Okay. I think you can tell by the topography that this area here. This is their original. This area that Lori is pointing out is the area that was really the only natural flat area of the property. SietseIlla: When the Planning COIlIDtission looked at this, they had the recoIlIDlendation frolll the Park and Recreation COIlIIltlSsion to acquire 4 acres of parkland and they asked Mark to COllie up wi th a concept of how 4 acres could work. This is the flatter area up in the north, the original northeast corner. It does not include what they're proposing now. ,.... Mary McCawley: But it does speak for the additional 4 acres. This area took 3 of the townhouse units, the larger units. Hasek: So this site is 4 acres? The outline of this site is how ~any acres? Mary McCawley: It's a little ~ore isn't it? Sietseflla: 4.08 acres. These boundar ies here. Hasek: So what you're proposing is to take 4 acres of facilities and put it into sOlllething under 3 acres? Boyt: 2.7. Hasek: No. Because that says 4 acres of site that's fairly flat and the flat part of this site is now 2.7 acres. Dean Johnson: 3. Sietsellla: What they're saying is, if this represents 4 acres being used in this area... Mary McCawley: This is a different configuration. ,...., Hasek: skating. Between this area right and this area which is now going to be There's 3.1 acres. Park and Rec COIlUtlission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 18 Mary McCawley: area. ....." This is 2.7 and there's an area down here where the pond Hasek: So you've got 3.1 instead of 4 basically with the same facilities. SietseIlla: There's a conservation easeIllent in that lower area on those wetlands so. Dean Johnson: That conservation easement is 75 feet... SietseIlla: Pardon Ille? Dean Johnson: I read that in your report about the conservation easement. That conservation eas~lent is farther to the west. It's not even, that easeIllent, even 75 feet frolll that easelllent would not be wi thin any of this. Sietsellla: But those are considered wetlands and there's a 75 foot setback. Dean Johnson: The wetlands are... Sietsellla: These aren't considered wetlands? These ponds? Dean Johnson: No. Mary McCawley: Those are retention ponds. They're man-made. --' SietseITla: I understand that but they, it was IllY understanding that they became wetlands and therefore protectable and there was a 75 foot setback on those. Mary McCawley: No. retention purposes. parking side. It wouldn't be wetlands with vegetation. It's for This is the natural wetlands and it's all on the Erhart: Lori, can you explain the setbacks from the wetland. That big area that is wetlands. What kind of a setback do we need there? Sietsema: There would be a 75 foot setback that nothing could be constructed or developed or altered within 75 feet of a wetlands area. They're telling Ille I 'Ill wrong but it was IllY understanding that these other ponding areas were now considered wetlands and they also had a 75 foot setback. Hasek: There is an easement line drawn across the plan. What is that? SietseIlla: That's an utility easeIllent. Hasek: utility? Okay. Dean Johnson: Could I state one more thing about the wetland? These wetlands are Class B wetlands and consequently they can be altered to an~-, shape. They're not considered to be crucial in forIlI. In fact, in the initial site, the plan for that wetland has already been looked at by staff Park and Rec COPlIllission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 19 ,..... and recoIllmended for approval al though it hasn't been approved yet, is that we take it and we remake part of that wetland into a retention pond with water coming off of the 18.9 acres that's going to come off of the hard surfaces and drain down into that. They wanted that part of the site altered into a retention pond and then dumped into the wetlands after that so that is all going to be altered and work be done on a Class B alteration permit by the DNR. Staff has no problem with that. It's not...or has been done or looked at by your staff and they reCOIl\Illend...so these are not things that cannot be worked with. This is not a type of a wetland that cannot be touched. I have worked around those types of wetlands...but this is not that case. Lash: So when we start filling in this ravine, what kind of a grade are you talking about...? What the grade is going to be ultimately? ...they start filling in, it obviously would make a much steeper grade wouldn't it? Mary McCawley: No. This is 4:1 slope which is really more gradual than the 3:1 slope that is generally, the ultimate. You can see the grades there. These are 10 foot contours. Existing grades are extended and they're not an~lore severe than they are now but there's nothing proposed greater than 4:1 which is very acceptable as far as erosion and you know those concerns. Dean Johnson: I don't know what's allowed or Chanhassen' s IltiniIlluPI grade .~ but I know Pl~louth is 3:1. 3:1 is Pl~louth's. Mary McCawley: But these are even gentler than what would be the ITlaxiIltllIlI. Hasek: I think what has a lot to do with those slopes though is where they're located and what their function is going to be. If vou leave a 3:1 slope alone and grass it in and mowing it, it's fine but if ~ou're going to put it some sort of an active use, we'll have to look at something other than that. Dean Johnson: If Pl~louth they allow you to take what will allow you an area where you mow frequently. In the townhouses...I have such a bank. But this isn't that. This is 4:1. This is a good sliding hill. Hasek: Just a general question. Where do we stand with the tree ordinance? Has anything been done about that at all? SietseIlla: I don't believe so. Hasek: Nothing has been talked about at Council? SietseIlla: I think that the ordinance is being worked on but I don't believe that it's in place yet. ,-... Hasek: Do we have it within the ordinance, the requirePlent that we are showing where eiisting vegetation is... For example, when they bring the topo in, do they have to show some of the general tree masses and stuff? SietseIlla: I don't know. I think they usually do. Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 20 ...""". Hasek: Do we have an aerial photograph section map? Sietserl\a: Yes. I can go up and get it. Boyt: Dawne and I have some questions of other staff...that you don't have expertise to answer. I think Dawne has questions about the wetland. I have questions about whether or not this would be allowed...and I think we'd like to have some of the questions answered before we spend a lot of tiItle. SietseItla: Why don't you give Itle a list of your questions. Boyt: Well my question was, if the filling won't be allowed, then we're not even dealing with this as parkland because to me it's not useable. I guess what it comes down to for me is it still is not a useable piece of property to meet the needs of those people. Erhart: We upped it froItI 182 units to 200 units. Boyt: And less useable space. Mary McCawley: If you took these 4 acres, there wouldn't be 130 units. \_--" YOll took these 3 uni ts away for this aItlount of parkland, it would... the -'" project unuseable and then there would a lot less units. Boyt: ...4 acres but if we took 4 acres and reduced the number of people in the development... is the IttinimuItI aItlount for thi s si te. The aItlount of people. Mary McCawley: ...this project but you can see there's a big corner here of grading that's well above the, well a lot steeper than the 5% so we would actually do the grading to make this workable. You wouldn't get 4 acres of flat land in this proposal either. Lash: . . . we wanted a ItliniItluItI of 4. Boyt: Developable acres. Lash: We didn't pick the location. We just said" what we wanted so. Robinson: So what you're saying is this has nothing to do with the park? Boyt: Developable acres? Dean Johnson: Why isn't slope developable acres? Boyt: I guess I'm not interested in the ravine. --- Dean Johnson: But a sliding hill? Oak View Heights isn't a park? ....", Park and Rec COIlll1tission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 21 "'" Lash: If we take in the sliding hill and stuff, what do we have? Dean Johnson: 5. Lash: But we've also increased the nu~ber of units? Dean Johnson: If you would take your 4 acres that you wanted and divide that into the 182 in the 4 acres, because that's the original a~Ol1nt of uni ts and then you take and you use that nUPlber, that di fferential, then ~ultiply it by the 200 units that are now there, you co~e up with that 4.4 acres is what you want for park. In other words, I'm over what you've already required. Do you understand what I 'III saying? Hasek: I guess ~y concern was lies really with two areas. One, if the facilities that are being shown are adequate. My question is, is 185 football field adequate? I don't know that it is. I think it's drawn on there simply because that's what fit. I'd like to see one that's a little larger than that if possible. Perhaps we don't need all the facilities that are on there but we've got a real sketchy plan before us. I'd like to see so~ething a little bit ~ore typed up than that. I don't have any concern about, I Plean a sl id ing hi 11 is fine wi th PIe. We've got active and passive uses. That doesn't bother me so I1luch but if we're being shown SOIlle facilities, I'd like to know that they're going to work and I can't believe that a 195 foot ballfield, even though it is for kids, we're still going to ~ get SOIlle high school kids out there playing ball with a totlot dead center field so I'd like to see things I guess tighten up. Show us a plan that ~akes so~e real good logical sense. Show us a ballfield that can be used by all the potential users out there. I've got a kid in 6th grade and he can hit the ball 185 feet so if you get older kids, it's going to travel farther than that. Mary McCawley: It's 230 foot. Hasek: 230 is probably reasonable but you've also got it backed up against the property line here about 10 feet on the south side here, and it's about 182 feet to this one line so so~e things need to be cleaned up. Mary McCawley: Is it the developer's responsibility to design the park? Hasek: No, but you're showing us something and if you want us to believe it, I would say that it's probably your responsibility to Plake us believe it and I just don't believe it right now so that's my opinion. I don't believe this one either. This nUPlber right here I don't believe and what I'~ telling you is that I think this was drawn this way because it's something that worked on the plan. Not necessarily that it would work in reality. Mary McCawley: ,-.., Hasek: Who did that plan? Mary McCawley: Mark. Park and Rec Cop~ission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 22 ~ Hasek: He's not the developer so. I do this for a living and I personal~ wouldn't bring a plan in this sketchy fOrIlI and expect soruebody to believe it. I'd go in and put the grades in. I'd put the planting plan on it. I'd do everything just to make sure that it got passed. I'd take the responsibility upon ourself as the designer to Plake sure the plan is ready to go. What the heck? For a few extra dollars, it just takes a little time and effort to try and convince us, the cop~ission, that is really what you want to do with this. Mary McCawley: Are you giving an outline of equipment you do want to see? Is that the types that you want to see? Hasek: I think that's probably up to you to work with staff to figure out if we have some specific for sizes that we'd typically like to see and that's up to you to work out with them. It's not our job I don't think to tell you what sizes... I'm just reacting to 185 foot on the ballfield. That's a pretty big lot for very young kids. If you get a high school kid out there on that softball field, he's going to hit it 250-280-300 feet that's worth his weight in gold and I don't know that that's necessarily what we design all of our parks but it's sOPlething you can anticipate that's going to happen so the point that I'm making is that, the totlot at the end doesn't make any sense...rearrange things. That's what I'm saying. Sietsema: 200 foot baseline is typical in a neighborhood park. '- Dean Johnson: We did get that froPI staff... because we did work wi th stat......... I guess you know, the thought that I have at this point is, you know we didn't expect to design this for you. In our talkings with everybody at the city here, not only Lori but others, we didn't expect to. We were expecting to show you that things could go on here and that's why this is as it is. If we had known that we were supposed to bring in more design, we would have. I guess though we're going in front of Planning COPIDlission and the public here. If the ravine can be filled and if we can work with that.. .is it sOPlething that'~ feasible. Is that something that's... We need a little, I Plean, I appreciate your cOPlntents back. That we need a little bit Plore direction than what we've got here just by virtue of the process. Sietsema: In all fairness to Dean, I think that if this is something that there's no way in God's green earth that this cOPIDlission is ever going to put their stamp of approval on and you know that now, it'd be nice for him to know that now going into it. Or if he can revise it and do sOPle work on it and bring back a better plan and there's a chance that you're going to approve it, then he needs to know that. Boyt: The only thing I need to know is, I love that ravine and I'd like to see it used as parkland, is he can fill part of the ravine. I'd like to see it, rather than a totlot when the developPlent happens, have the playground equipment going down the hill. There's a lot of near things that can be done out there and I would...if we can find out from staff. '-, Dean Johnson: Again, getting 'back to, you know I Plean we're donating the""""" land and you guys are going to be putting the eql1ipPlent on it. We don't Park and Rec COIlIlllission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 23 ,.... mind help designing you know but you've got to give us direction which way. I would have never thought of putting park on the slope because I would have never thought that you guys would have watned that. Boyt: I think we just work with Dean on the grading. Isn't that it? Isn't that what it COllies down to? SietseIlla: Right. Dean Johnson: So I guess the question is, I've got extra dirt. I mean I've got quite a bit of extra dirt. I can fill the ravine. I can do that. If the ravine can be filled, is this something that you guys see as feasible? I mean I'll work with you beyond the fact of putting the dirt in, I'll work with you trying to get, you know the thing designed to something you know that you guys want. I don't mind as long as live got room for the dirt, where did you want the dirt but is this something you can live with because obviously I've got to take it frool here and go before Planning and tell them that basic concepts you know if something that looks like it's going to be workable but we do have to iron out the details or design the park or do whatever you want us to do. Boyt: There are some ni~e parks built on hills like Starry Lake Park and I saw a few in Japan that are beautiful that are built on the hillside and that's what I have irnagined as I've passed through the ravine. What it ,.... would be and lid love to see it parkland and if you could fill part of the ravine so we have 3.1 acres, that would satisfy me. Dean Johnson: Let's take it one step farther here too. I'm going to be putting up this apartment building sometime. It won't be until after the townhouses are pretty much up and going but I plan on using the ravine as an aIlleni ty for the apartIllent build ing. What I mean by that is SOllie kind of a walking trail, that type of thing. I would not mind at that point in saying I'll give you an easement so that this trail could go from Powers Blvd. say up and through this park. I have no probleIlI with doing sOIflething like that either so I wouldn't mind if you guys want to go with that direction. Hasek: You're talking about the easement down by the slope? Dean Johnson: Well see the majority of the trees aren't on this site. In fact there are very few trees in this site until you get on the slopes where it says cross country skiing. Once you get into that area and start going into the original park of my ground of 18.9 acres, that's where you really hit the trees and trees are between the 980 and the 940 contour. That's why the City planning staff wants us to put the easement in at 980 because then at that point they can protect those trees. Since I 'Ill not building down into the 980 contour, that's fine with me. So that's where the trees are. What I was planning on doing is putting a path in amongst, just above or just below the trees and that would be I think walking through the parkland. ""'" Lash: I have another question. I don't know what your, the apartIflents that are going in, is that included in there too? The total units? Park and Rec Conwtission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 24 ...", Dean Johnson: Yep. Lash: So without the apartnlent what is it? Dean Johnson: 110. Hasek: I 'nl sorry, what were those nunlber? 110 and 200 even? Dean Johnson: Yes. There's 90 apartnlents. But we need to design for the whole site now. Hasek: Did you talk about trails at all? SietseITla: We talked about that at earl ier Itleetings and that reconwlendation would still hold true with the trail going along Powers Blvd. and a sidewalk along Jenny Lane. Dean Johnson: But that's already been discussed and accepted so what I'm talking about is an extra walking path through the trees. Hasek: And that would be a trail separate from the road? Separated from the road surface? Sietsema: Which? ...,l Hasek: The trail on Jenny Lane? Sietserna: Yes. Sidewalk. Hasek: And that would be installed at the time the road went in? Sietsenla: Yes. Hasek: Which is something we're going to start doing? Sietsenla: Right. Dean Johnson: Are you guys having trouble with things not being done? Sietsema: That piece of property that they just acquired and included in this proposal, the comprehensive trail plan does call for a trail connection to go there that would connect Chanhassen Pond Park over to Powers so you could go from Chan Pond Park over to Lake Ann Park so that easelnent. . . Boyt: Isn't that where there used to be a cow path? SietseItla: Yes. In that area sOItlewhere yeah. Boyt: That's not there anymore? -' SietseIlla: Tha t 's not there anyrtlore. Park and Rec ConlIllission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 25 jIIff'" Erhart: So in other words what it boils down to is if we can nlake this workable, is the conlIllission satisfied with 5 acres for the 200 units? Dean Johnson: I'd say 5 acres plus the easement. Erhart: What's what it boils down to? Hasek: Staff is telling us 5 acres is a mlnlItIUrn and 7 acres is kind of a nlaxhlufll based on their estinlates so 5 acres, 5.01 acres is there, it's there. I think the I ines can be changed a 1 i ttle bi t to accofllIllOdate nlaybe even a little bit more... The question in my mind is useable acreage. If we can acconllllodate facilities that we think will provide for the residents of this particular project within that 3.1 or 2.7 acres of high ground above and include SOllIe of the recreational activities on that side slope pIns the trail, I don't see any problefll with it. I'fll not cOfllfortable with what we see yet is fllY problefll. I need sOfllebody to tell file, yeah I think this will work and I guess I'm looking to staff a little bit more to give us that direction. Boyt: Same here. Do we need Mark to look at the 2.7? Sietseflla: We could have hifll look at it. ,1fII"""" Hasek: Part of fllY situation is, we don't have a really good definitive grading plan with this thing. There certainly is nothing wrong with putting some of the uses on the side of the hill. I think that's a fantastic idea. I just spent my first weekend out at Chutes and Ladders last weekend. I think it's a dangerous spot. Kind of built in a...but I think it's exciting for the kids and I think it's going to... I think that the potential is there. Sietsenla: Really the only problefll that I have wi th this whole thing is including a ballfield on this site. I think that it can be used. If the original recofl~endation was that there should be 4 acres that would accolllIllOdate a ballfield and I want to get a reiteration frofll the COfllIltlssion that that's really what they want. I don't think that a ballfield's going to work on this site. And I think the only way it's going to work is if you cut into the 1l10re developable, the area that the townhouses are sitting in. The ballfield with the other facilities that you want in there, I don't think is going to work. I think that if you go into a facility or a park design that's going to be more of your Chutes and Ladders and more using the slope and some original ideas and that kind of thing, I think you can have a very nice park on this site but I'm just not really, I'm not sold on the fact that a ballfield's going to work on it. Boyt: I think we wanted a large open space. Sietsema: I think that the large open space is fine for whatever pick-up gallles but to actually put a backstop wi th bases and a skinned infield, is just... ,..... Park and Rec COIllI1lission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 26 Boyt: Originally we were just seeing pieces of playgrounds in different -' areas in the developITlent and we wanted a larger space for kids. Sietsema: Right. But this makes me real uncomfortable to see a ballfield wi th the totlot there. I 'ITII'~oIllfortable wi th a totlot that close to a ballfield even if it's on the sideline. Lash: But this area is flat. SietseIlla: Right and I think there's other ways to, I just question whether we need a ballfield within this area or if the grassy open space is going to be used for your frisbee, your pick-up games or your baseball, football or whatever kids happen to be doing just in open space to work on but it's not going to be a place that you can do anything organized on. Boyt: There's some neighborhood parks, they put up just a mesh backstop and that's it. Nothing else. That's it. And it just provides kind of a feeling of baseball but that's good for pick-up gaIlles. Dean Johnson: Usually a little over 2. Not quite as high. Nothing as Illassi ve as... Sietsema: Yeah, the typical. Dean Johnson: Can I make one more point that I asked earlier? I wanted try and get Mark Koegler to work with this site. I called Lori and I do~ know how that, did you ever talk to Don on that? Sietsema: No, I never got to talk to Don until today and I didn't talk to him about this. Dean Johnson: Okay. I guess what I'm thinking here is, if the si te looks like it has SOITle proITtise, I would be. I have talked to Mark. He will not work for "Ie because he is under retainer for you guys, which you know I can understand I guess. Maybe can we get hilll to take a look at this too and have this thoughts to this thing? Hasek: That was the question I was just going to ask. Dean Johnson: I was willing to have him do a quick sketch of the thing. I guess I wouldn't like sharing in the cost if we're getting into some great detailed plans. Hasek: You typically do a conceptual plan too but it's my understanding that when Mark does a conceptual plan, he has a real good feeling of whether the grading's going to work when he puts that together. Now...has a grading plan or not, I don't... When I do this type of thing, I intuitively know that it's going to work and I don't have to do all the grading to accolllI11odate it but I don't know what our arrangeIllent is with Mark. Dean Johnson: We would have no probleIlI. My engineer, Mary, is a landsca~ architect. I guess what I'm saying here is, we can work with Mark to make Park and Rec COPlIltission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 27 ,...... sure that the grading plan works like he's proposing or it doesn't work, that he can rearrange that type of thing. I have no problent...assistance for doing this. Hasek: Do we have some kind of consensus here? Do we have to make a motion? Boyt: I don't know. Do you have anynlOre questions? Erhart: Well I'd be interetsed to see if it can work. Then the way I look at it, if you acconlIllOdated us, what we asked for before. Lash: I'pt not conlfortable with it. I don't know exactly why. I can't quite put my finger on it but I'm not. Boyt: It doesn't feel right. Hoffman: Another thing to consider as we talk about the possibility of a potential sliding hill. That is a facility that is often requested and we do not have at this time to provide and if this would indeed become that cOPUllUnity sliding hill. Sietsema: We have one across the street from Chan Pond. .~ Boyt: ...across the street as soon as they take down the erosion control barriers. Hoffman: But are they going to park on street for that? Siets~la: No, they're putting in parking. Parking'S included in the plan for Chan Pond. Erhart: I couldn't take a vote on this now. Boyt: They need more information. Robinson: I know I'd feel nlOre conlfortable if Mark looked at it... SietsePla: I don't think that Mark will have a problenl with it if you tell hint what you want to see in it. This is the piece of property. It's 5.04 acres and you want to include what facilities and he'll corne back with sonlething the best and he'll make a recon\Iltendation if something won't work. You know just can't but he needs some guidelines set up before he can go to work at it. He needs to know what we want. ,..... Hasek: I guess I personally think that the guidelines are going to be based upon the fact that this is really supposed to be providing for a mul ti-fantily use. That's got to be targeted for a market of sonle sort. Some age group and the facilities that should go in there should be most appropriate for that age group. That range or whatever the breakdown of that Plight be. I have to believe that there's going to be elderly people living in there so there should be sonte very passive uses of sonle sort. Perhaps picnic areas or I don't know what else it could be. I think an Park and Rec Cop~ission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 28 open field space is appr.opriate. I think a large totlot is appropriate. -' Tennis never seems to want to die so I can see where that would be and... for appropriate parking spaces. I think that perhaps a little different design of the par.king areas is necessary. Can you just show me...parking. SietsePla: And half court basketball. Dean Johnson: That was. in the original request when we were looking at it. Can I make one other point that maybe should be thought of. This isn't my ground. I don't even know who owns it but there is that little triangle that it cOPies up and it hits Kerber Blvd.. The townhouse, rental townhouses that line that same behind the diamond there, that goes straight out to Kerber Blvd. so that leaves a triangular piece there. That maybe should be looked at to see who actuallv owns that because it's reallv undevelopable for any building. It's ~oo small to do anything with.. There's no type of building that can be done and I guess the reason I bring it up is that we...parking spot there. Boyt: Do we need to direct staff to contact Mark? SietseIlla: Yes. Boyt: With our ideas now? SietsePla: Yes. -' Boyt: So Ed's given you quite a few. Hasek: Do we want to give hiPI a... of SOI'le sort so he's got sOPle level of cOPlfortabili ty or is that something we don't do? Sietsema: Dean you mean? Hasek: Yeah. Boyt: If this motion passes to go to Mark... SietsePla: That should be an indication that you're looking at accepting this based on what Mark finds the useability of the piece of property. Robinson: I also like you idea of taking that official looking ballfield out of there and make it an open area or just a backstop or a green area or something. Hasek: I think that will discourage that type of a use for sure. Mary McCawley: Are there facilities on the school grounds for organized baseball? Boyt: Yes. -~ Mary McCawley: So is there a real need for... """"" Park and Rec Con~ission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 29 ,...., SietseItla: That's satur.ated. Boyt: There still is a need. Dean Johnson: There's a need. You just need a bigger area. Hasek: This is just not an appropriate spot for it. Sietsenla: See PlY point is that I don't think that the ball field works wi th the topography on this site. Anywhere on this site. No Platter where you put it really. Robinson: It takes up a lot of space that mayor may not be used. Lash: I'm having a flashback here in my mind to previous meetings and there was sOPlething in there about Illonetary aIllount for totlot equipItlent. Is that still a part of this? What happened to that? Sietsema: No. Because now you're asking for land and before we were asking for recreational facilities on their property and a dedication of park dedication fees. Now we're talking about land and no fees. Lash: This is not a PUD? ,.... SietseIlla: No. " Boyt: Are you ready for a motion? Erhart: Have we bought Banidmere's property yet? Sietsenla: No. Not yet. Erhart: That's going to have a little bit to do with ballfields. SietseIlla: Well the type of use that BandiPlere is going to get and that would be a cOPIDlunity park and this would be considered a neighborhood park so you don't plan for the same types of intensive uses in a neighborhood park. Hasek: I think we've had the overflow of some of those planned activities into the neighborhood parks just siItlply because of we were... Boyt: But Dawne was talking about, originally we asked for a ballfield because we needed more ballfields. ~ Erhart: ...1 was just wondering what the status was on the Bandinlere's property. SietseIlla: Well the status of it is that there's some probleIlls with, there were sOPle things that the attorney had probleItls wi th the ti tle and clear ing the ti tle and he was not cOIllfortable wi th this closing on the property until those things were cleared up so he's presently working on that and we should be closing as soon as that takes plac~. As soon as he gets those : " Park and Rec COIlIDlission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 30 things cleaned up. .....", Boyt: Does anybody want to make a motion? Ed? Hasek: If nobody else wants to. I guess what I would like to do is to send this particular piece of property into our consultant, Mark Koegler and have him give us his expertise and input into what kinds of programs perhaps would be appropriate for a developIllent of this nature and if they can in fact be accoIlllllodated on the piece of property that's proposed. Does that make sense? (There was a tape change at this point in the meeting.) Hasek Illoved, Boyt seconded that the Park and Recreation COIllItlission direct staff to prepare a conceptual plan for the proposed park plan with facilities including open play field, large totlot, tennis, basketball court, parking and area for senior ci tizens or to render a reCOIllItlendation if such cannot be accoIllItlodated. All voted in favor and the Illotion carried. Dean Johnson: ...the reason is I've got to make a decision now whether we should hold off for another meeting with Planning before continuing on. SietseIlla: The way I would interpret this is that if it can be cOIllfortab' be, if the fac i 1 i ties they want to see on the si te can be cOIllfor tably ....", accollllllOdated on that 5 acre site, they're going to be okay with it. Dean Johnson: I guess my thing is, do I bring it. The decision I make is do I bring it to Planning like that or do I just bring it 2 more weeks... Mary McCawley: When do you Illeet? Every 2 weeks? SietseIlla: We'll Illeet on the 24th. If Mark can work on it wi thin that tiIlle frame and get it back to us by the 24th, it will be on the next agenda. As far as whether you should go to Planning, I really can't tell you that. Maybe you talk to Jo Ann. Dean Johnson: I'll see what she says about that too. Maybe if you can talk to her too you can put your heads together. Sietsema: I will and I'll clear up some of the questions that we had about the wetlands and the ravine. DISCUSSION OF PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION MISSION STATEMENT. Hasek: My COIlIDlent is, I asked around about nlission statelllents and the feedback that I got was there isn't a mission statement. There's a primary goal for various parts of the comprehensive plan and that serves along wjJ~ the zoning ordinance and our obligations as kind of direction. I wasn't --' discouraged frOIlI putting together a Illission statelllent but I was encouragea-- at the same time to keep it to one paragraph. If you can't say it in a Park and Rec COll\Illission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 31 I"" paragraph, then you might as well let the comprehensive plan stand still. There was SOllie COll\Illent in here about a page or less and I think if we can't keep it to a paragraph or less. Lash: Mine is short. The page that they had, was just a couple of sentences and then they had... It wasn't like it was a whole page of typed. Boyt: Mine is to provide quality facilities and recreational prograITls for all ages that will encourage a wholesome and fun leisure time experience. Lash: I had underlined under the Brooklyn Park... Boyt: I have problellls with SOllie of our activities that aren't wholesoIlle. Robinson: Yeah, South St. Paul al so has wholesoIlle and 1l1aybe tha t Illeans we don't need to provide a beer drinking facility for the ball players. I Illean that's not a wholesollle thing. Boyt: After being involved in youth sports where I guess it's the parents that aren't acting very wholesoIlle, it's sOIlleth~ng that I would like to encourage. Lash: It's a strange word. It sounds like bread. Hasek: The thing I liked about both of thelll is they talked about providing ,.... facilities for all of their residents as opposed to SOllie of their residents. Hoffman: Baseball players. Hasek: Softball players...and I liked that. SietseIlla: I think there are SOllie age groups that get left out. HoffITlan: And activities. Archery. Lash: I've got the basic goal of the Chanhassen Park and Recreation COll\Illission is to provide a high quality and large variety of recreational facilities taking into concerns the needs, wants and concerns of all our citizens now and in the future. Our aim is to provide the services in a safe and financially responsible Illanner while keeping an...of preservation and protection of our natural amenities. That's a little bit longer but I wrote slllall. Robinson: The purpose of this, the mission statement~ is really to keep us focused is that right? Sietsema: Right. 11""'" Hoffman: And to provide something for the people to read out there that we're serving. Lash: Kind of PRo Park and Rec COIlUltission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 32 '\ Robinson: I guess I'd like something like Sue's which is cOI1lparable to tlTt South St. Paul. I thought that was... I thought Brooklyn Park's was much too long. Hoffman: They won a lot of awards with that one however. Boyt: It sounds fine. Lash: It is short but it doesn't really sound like it covers everything that, you know if you look at our notes, the brainstorIlling we did. When I looked through that, you could just go through and pick out which ones were Larrv's and which ones were Dawne's and which ones were mine so I tried to incl~de something that I knew was an important thing to each person. That they had contributed. I guess that's why I had the preservation and protection and the futllre. That was JiIlI' s. Hasek: I think that the...primary goals is in here. I tell you I went through this goals and policies again. That's a job in itself. Boyt: Maybe we could, I don't think we have to have this finished. Maybe we could have yours printed, and mine printed and we can try and send it hOIlle wi th each of us next tiIlle and see what we can do wi th it. Lash: Curt, you said you had one too didn't you? Robinson: No, I j llSt said cross out South St. Paul and put Chanhassen iT........., there. HoffIllan: No reason to reinvent the wheel right Curt? Boyt: Do you want to print up Jan's and mine? Hasek: The one thing that I did was to take just the goal statement out of the recreational part of the comprehensive plan and just rewrite it and just use it. The City of Chanhassen will provide recreational opportunities which will reasonably Illeet the recreational needs of the COIlIIlIUni ty' s present and future residents. Boyt: Do you want to print up all of those? Just put theIlI in the Minutes so we can look at them and try and work on it one more time. SietseIlla: It's in there. Boyt: Do we need to do anything more then? SietseI1la: No. Hasek: I did happen to notice though that the first, it's something I've asked Lor i to look at and I aSSUIlle she's still working on it. Sietsema: Accessibility. -' Hasek: The first pOlicy, provide parks and open space facilities and Park and Rec Cop~ission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 33 "'" eIllphasi ze accessibil i ty and use by Chanhassen residents. Sietsema: You know I was looking at that again because I got all this handicap information and then I got to thinking, is it handicap accessibility that you're talking about or just accessibility to the parks? Hasek: Good question. What does this mean to you? It means something entirely different to me. This means not only the handicap. Sietsema: Do you want rlle to put that on the agenda so we can hash it out? I don't know what kind of background information to get. Hasek: Maybe we should. Sietsema: Then I can get direction froIlI the COPIDlission. Hasek: It might be interesting to even throw it at Council to see what they think about it. Erhart: Also make a copy of the original one we wrote. S ietsellla: Wasn't that in there? Erhar t : Yes it is but when you put theIlI all together... because thi s is ".... still I1IY favorite. Because I wrote it. COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS: Hasek: I Plentioned something to Lori that really I think I brought up before but I'd really like to start seeing it. When we see these projects, can we please get a topography. A copy of the aerial photograph to look at and maybe what we should start doing as part of the zoning ordinance is to ask the application to provide a reduction of all of their graphics so we get the fllll developPlent wi th the topography on it. The full developPlent. The developPlent shown on it. The full developPlent so we know what's around what the zoning is... This is one of the few cities that we work in that doesn't ask for that. Almost every city that we go to, they want an 8 1/2 x 11 reduction of every graphic that we turn in so they can Plake copies and have in the packet for everybody that they give it to. Not everybody likes to look at those huge drawings. SietseIlla: I believe that is a requirement. We just don't always get thePl. So it just needs to be enforced more. DeIllanded rllore strongly. Hasek: I see. The other thing is, pretty soon we're going to have topography for most of the city correct? SietseIlla: Yes. ,...., Hasek: It would be nice to be able to get, if it's not available, at least see what the section topography looks like and that's another tool that's really going to be helpful I think when we start looking at parkland. I Park and Rec COIllItlission Meeting October l~, 1989 - Page 34 r-' ....." don't know what, I have to aSSUlne it's the north part of town that they're doing fil:st because that's where developIllent is tending to occur. Sietsema: They should have SOllie of it in already. Hasek: The end of October is what I was told. Sietsema: Yeah, I'm waiting for them to get Bandimere done. Hasek: I think the aerials and topos will be an invaluable tool to us. SietseIlla: We have better aertial photos now. We have new ones that are bettel: now too. Boyt: I have one thing I forgot I wanted to bring up. We need to have SOllie of inspection of our conservation easelnents in town on Illaybe a yearly basis but they're being abused right now. Lash: Did I hear you didn't get your packet last night? Ed, and you didn't get one, a packet a couple times before that and Dawne didn't get one one time. I'm trying to figure out if there's a problem in the distr ibution systeIlI for those things or what. Hasek: Part of the reason why I didn't get Illine is because it was put in IllY front door and I don't use IllY front door. It was del i vered by a pol iceIllan. .....", Sietsema: And you don't get your mail as fast either. Hasek: That's because I live in victoria. On the other side of Minnewashta. SietseIlla: He gets theIlI in Todd delivers thelll. And on Dawne's, it was the CSO didn't deliver it on time. I got a note on my desk. That was the time that I was going to have them all delivered so you'd get them early and the CSO left Ille a note and sa id, wi th theIlI, and sa id I forgot to del i ver these. Lash: That kind of puts us in a bind you know. Even getting it, for me, on Saturday. I mean if you go out of town for the weekend, you get back late Sunday night and here you've got 10~ pages of stuff to read because Monday night and that's it to read. I guess I kind of expected last week since it had been a month since our other meeting, that we would get theIlI by Thursday or sOIllething and then it still didn't COllie until Saturday. SietseIlIa: Well IllY packet has to go out after the City Council packet so I can't run anything on Thursday because City Council's going out so that means all my stuff gets run and put together on Friday and it goes out in . the mail on Friday. Boyt: Maybe we could stop and pick it up on Friday. SietseIlla: Yeah. They are here. """""" Park and Rec comntission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 35 "..... Erhart: Are they available on Friday? SietseITla: Yes. Usnally by 3: 00. Hasek: The problem with that... Boyt: For those that it's convenient for. Like if Jan's going to drive by on her way hOIlle, maybe it'd be easier. If Bill's up here, he can pick ntine up. Hasek: Does Planning COIl~ission have the same problem do you think? SietseITla: Planning gets their delivered by CSO. Hasek: The same deal so there's is right at the last minute too. Erhart: No it isn't. Sietsema: No, they get theirs on Friday because the CSO delivers theITI on Friday but ours go out in the Illail. What I could do is ask that the CSO's deliver ours on a regular basis. Boyt: I'd rather see, rather than CSO, I'd rather you hire someone like a newspaper carrier. Just some person that you pay $4.00 an hour to deliver "..... these rather than taking up the CSO' s tinle. They just do ita couple tiIlles a week. Hasek: Is that possible? Lash: Except if they're driving around anyway. Sietsema: Well they have other things to do. Boyt: Lots of other things to do. Hoffman: I don't know that you can secure somebody dependable for $4.00 an hour to do this twice a week. Boyt: I don't know how much you pay them but I think you can pay less than you pay a CSO to drive around. Hasek: Could they all go out the saIlle tiI'1e Planning COIlIDlission' s go out? Sietsema: No, because they're on the off week and I can't run stuff before City Council because their packets are four times thicker than yours and they have priority on the copying machine. Now when we get another copying machine, I may be able to get it out on Thursday. But they are available. I usually have your packets done by 2:00 on Friday afternoon so if you want to pick theIlI up. ,....., Erhart: That in itself Lori is a big help because if you do go out of town for the weekend, I'd like to know that I can drive up here and pick it up. Park and Rec COIl'wlission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 36 Sietsema: If you're going to, let ITle know in the II'lorning and I can II'lake """"" sure that I have it done but there's very few tiples that I don't have that done by 2:00 or 3:00 in the afternoon on Friday. Robinson: So let's leave it at that. That we continue the way it is except if you want to pick it up, you call Lori and tell her you're going to stop and pick it up. Otherwi se she II'la ils thepl all. The burden should be on us, not her to wonder who's going to stop and who's not. Sietsema: Yeah, the mail goes out at quarter after 4:00. It gets taken over to the Post Office. Lash: It's goes at quarter after 4:00 and we get them on Saturday? SietseIl'la: Yes. Except Ed. Lash: What time do you guys close here? SietseIl'la: 4: 30. Hasek: I supposed mine has to go through another post office. Sietsellla: If YOIl haven't picked it up by quarter after 4:00, I'll stick it in the lllail. Lash: Because otherwise we won't be here in tiple to get it anyway. -' Sietsema: Right. Unless you call me and tell you're going to be later than that. Lash: But we only have an extra 15 minutes. Sietsellla: In the case of Sue's, it was a wi ld, wi ld Fr iday because the City Council didn't get out on Thursday so we were both running packets at the saPle tiple and I had at least 1 zillion Plailings between the Council packet and the Park and Rec because that was the night that the packet that Curry Farms was on so they all had to be notified. Boyt: I had no idea you guys were ITleeting. I hadn't been to the meetin before that so I had no idea. Sietsema: Well it was the second or fourth Tuesday. Boyt: I know but I spaced out Lori. Hasek: That's what happened to ITle wi th the one. My packet was there and we had started not II'leeting regular and I thought well lllaybe if there's not a packet there's not a meeting. '- Boyt: Okay, do you need anyone for this? -"" Sietsema: Yes. Everyone. , ,.... ,..... I ,..... Park and Rec CO!l\Illission Meeting October 10, 1989 - Page 37 Boyt: In costuIlle? Hoffman: Yes. Big set-up this year. SietseIlla: We need to know if you're going to be a mean, dangerous spooky costuIlle or a nice, good nature costUIlle. Boyt: When should we tell you? Hoffman: Tonight's the night. When's our next meeting. Boyt: Well they can call you. They all have phones. HoffIllan: Okay. Lash: I'll donate a costume bllt I can't be here. I have a scarey costuIlle so if sOIllebody wants to be a scarey, and they don't have a costuIlle. SietseIlla: Ed, will you be there? Hasek: I want you to know that the last month I've had least 2 night meetings a week. Usually they fall on Tuesday and Wednesday. Lash: This is my third one. Robinson moved, Lash seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:58 p.m. SUbIlli tted by Lor i SietseIlla Park and Rec Coordinator Prepared by Nann Opheim