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PRC 1989 10 24 ,.... ,.... \ I""" . PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING OCTOBER 24, 1989 . (,rr-" Chairman Mady called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jan Lash, Jim Mady, Curt Robinson, Larry Schroers," Ed Hasek and Dawne Erhart MEMBERS ABSENT: Sue Boyt STAFF PRESENT: Lori Sietsema, Park and Rec Coordinator APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Robinson Ploved, Schroers seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Cop~ission meeting dated October 10, 1989 as aPlended on page 31 by Jan Lash. All voted in favor except JiI"1 Mady who abstained and the motion carried. REVIEW CENVESCO PARK DEDICATION PROPOSAL. Sietsema: At the last meeting the Park and Recreation Cop~ission had directed staff to have our consultant Mark Koegler look at the property for this developPlent tha t was pJ~oposed for par kland, it was 5.04 acres, to see how it could be potentially used. Upon going out to the site, Mark and I felt that the ravine had a lot of potential as open space. As much value as open space or Plore, than filling it and putting a play area on top of it. In light of that, I had him prepare a plan showing the ravine being filled and the ravine not being filled. The ravine does have one large oak in the pliddle of it where the filling wOllld occur and when we were ont there, it was a big flaming red oak. Flaming red. It was just bright red when we were ant there. It was beautiful. So his two plans show how the site could be used as parkland, filling the ravine and not filling the ravine. In looking at the two plans and after being out on the site a number of times now, I really feel that this site has a great potential as a neighborhood park. I think it could be very unique and one of the nicest neighborhood parks we have in this city if done working with the topography and not against it. I would also favor that we don't fill the ravine as again I feel that it has good explore and discover play area potential. If you look at the Concept Plan B, you can see how an open area could be preserved and still have the tennis and basketball and play area on the site. So the recoI"~endation of staff is to approve the Oak View Heights site plan with the following conditions. Those being, the developer dedicate the 5+ acres of parkland. The developer do the rough and fine grading on the park site in accordance with a grading plan prepared by the City. The developer will provide a 20 foot trail easement along the sloped area above the wetlands from the park site to Powers Blvd. which is shown on our. COJTIP~ehe~si ve Trail Plan. And that the developer construct ~n B foot wlde bltumlnous trail along the east side of Powers Blvd th t' " length of the proposed d 1 t d ., e en lIe that the st t: . eve opPlen an that such be constl:ucted at the tiI"le ree J.PlprOVeI"lents al:e Plade. And finall v tha t the developer construct up to a 5 foot wide concrete sidewalk on.~he north side of Jennv ~:~: ~~~r~h:~ ~~~~ be I co~~truc;ed a~ the tiI"le the street iplproveI"lents are. 100% cled:t on th = " t~ :lleu 0 suc, I,would propose that they would get J. ell laJ. and park dedlcation fees. 1 Park and Rec Corrwlission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 2 -'" Schroers: Is staff recorr~ending Plan A 01 B or is that something that we can decide? Sietserrla: I per sona lly would recorrwlend B. Hasek: B keeps the... Sietsema: B keeps the ravine. Robinson: Lori, where is Jenny Lane? You say it's a 5 foot wide. Sietsema: Jenny Lane was the street that went right through the developIllent that would connect with the existing street where the existing apartrrlent buildings are. It isn't shown in your packet. Oh, at the very corneJ~ it is. It wOllld connect those apartrrlent bnildings where we parked our car tonight and we caIlle in on what would be Jenny Lane and that would continue over to Powers Blvd.. Hasek: Arrl I to nnderstand by the grading that we're dropping down in the southeast corner and flatten the site ont that way rather than filling out? Is that what's happening here? Sietserrla: Yes. Hasek: You've got this knob so he's carving that knob off right? ---' Sietsema: Right. To make that a flatter area for an open field and for the paved areas. I would like to add one more thing. I think that we may want to consider putting the parking not off Kerber Blvd. but off of the cul-de-sac. Mady: ...develop that way and keep people off of Kerber Blvd.? SietseIlla: I believe that engineering will probably have a problerrl with another curb cut off of Kerber Blvd.. Hasek: Well it seerrls to rrle that Illaybe what we can do is just widened the access into the park and put the parking. Sietsema: Right at the access, yeah. And we don't need to get those details nailed down right here but I just wanted to mention that that may O! fi ~otentlQl ploble~\ with the engineeting department. Hasek. I th:nk it will give us just a little bit more room to try and accorr~odate ~hat. What I'd like to see personally is that maybe the t~po is pulled back in the southeast corner a little bit. Tightened up a llttle bit in there and try and get a field in,there that's large enough to accorrlrrloda te rrlaybe a sIllal1 si ze soccer fleld. Are we talking about what goes in there? We talked about the -' We're not talking about whether the field goes in there or courts or... Robinson: grading. basketball 2 Park and Rec COIl'IDlission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 3 : ,.... SietseIl'la: This just shows you that the facilities that you listed at the last meeting, the things that you wanted will fit in this and it doesn't mean that, this is not written in stone. If you were to approve this site plan with these conditions, it's not saying that for sure this is what's going in here. You could change your mind down the road at any given time. This is just a concept to show you how the piece could potentially be used. Hasek: But he's going to be doing the grading right off the bat. SietseIl'la: Right but we still have tiple to nail down a plan and get the grading plan together because this doesn't represent a grading plan yet ei there Robinson: Just a COIl'IDlent. This really helped to go out and look at the s1 te and I real i ze I shollld be doi ng tha t on PlY own but I never get around to it unless you say we're going to be Il'leeting early so I really appJ~eciate that. In the spring when it's light again, I'd like.to do that on more of these because there's no doubt in my mind that now that I totally agree with your recoPIDlendation. Otherwise I was sitting here and saying, well I don't know if the ravine should be filled or not froIl'l a piece of paper so that was really very beneficial visiting the site. ,.... Mady: You also don't get lost. Robinson: No. Mady: I usually get lost. Any other COIl'IDlents? Lash: When you're talking about the trail easePlent now. Is that sOlllething in addition to what's being shown on here? Sietsema: Yeah. If you recall at the last meeting Dean was talking about a trail that would Il'leander along the sloped area above the wetland area. Let me just put it up here. Our comprehensive trail plan shows a trail alignment that connects Kerber Blvd. over to Powers that comes through like this. That would be more of a nature trail type because we've got the fonlal sidewalks and trails that go along Kerber and Powers and West 78th Street and now Jenny Lane. Bllt this, becuase of the natural area of this, they felt it was a valid nature t:rail that should be preserved and Dean picked up on that and indicated that he would be willing to give the easement between the park p:roperty and Powers Blvd. on that slope to make that connection. If you may recall at one point in time there was a culvert underneath this road that you could get through and the plan at that time was to connect Chanhassen Pond Park over so you could go cross country over to Lake Ann Park but with the road imrpovements, that got filled in and that's no longer accessible. But there is a trail along Kerber Blvd. that connects to Chanhassen Pond so all these connections can still be made. It's another link in the trail plan which is pretty ,..... exci ting fo:r us to see these things actually connect up to things. The trails going sOPlewhere. It's a new concept. 3 Park and Rec COllllllission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 4 -'" Hasek: Does the developer have a graphic that shows where this pond extends or this wetland extends? Sietsellla: In the apar tlllent si te? So thi s is park proper ty. Thi s is the area that we connect down to the trail that will be going along Powers Blvd. and to the one that's on TH 5 out. Hasek: Can I see that? I guess I'd like to make a motion that we approve. Sietsema: I don't know if the developer has any COll~ents or not. Mady: I'd like to have Dean address us with any COIlmlents he has prior to going to a motion. Answer any questions. Dean Johnson: The staff report has doing point nUIllber 2 which is the rough and fine grading of this park site. I guess that's the point that I'm in opposition to here. Even by your sliding scale of park fees and the densi ty and the alllOunt of people that I have in here, it's requi ring 17% for park dedication fees. 5.1 acres is 18.8% of this site so I 'Ill almost 2% over what you would require of funds. You're looking at piece of ground that's really worth between probably $112,000.00 and $135,000.00. Say you take...price of $125,000.00 chunk of ground. You're now asking llle to grade it. In jllSt looking at the rough things that Mark did here, without seeding included, you're probably looking at somewhere between $12,000.00 and $20,000.00 for rough grading it. Fine grading it, I guess depends on the type of equiplllent you put in and what's required. That could easily -'" double this figure. I guess the other thing that COllies in is are you going to have this thing ready and the plan ready and grading... I guess what I'm basically saying to you is that I feel that to sit there and be required to grade it after I already exceed what you guys have in ordinance, is above and beyond the call of duty here. I think that portion should be dropped off. I am doing a bike path. I am doing sidewalks. All of those things are extra things over and above this piece of ground. Now you're also asking llle to grade too and I guess I feel that's being overly zealous. Mady: On the concept plans, is the 5 acres space, that goes all the way down to those ponds? So it includes the sloped areas and ravine and the whole thing? Dean Johnson: One Illore point is, I really have no, if you want Ille to do the work, I have no prob1eIlI doing the work. I'll do the work at cost. Whatever cost to get the grading done you know, I'll Jtlake sure the work gets done. I just don't feel it's fair that I have to pay... Hasek: Is this a PUD? Sietsema: No. Hasek: Just a straight subdivision? ..""" SietseIlla: Yeah, it's a straight subdivision. The park dedication ordinance reads, our requirements are that a subdivision of this density 4 Park and Rec COJlIJllission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 5 II"""' would require park dedication of 17% to 20% of the value. 17% would be the Il'liniJlluJlI that would be required on this si te. The sidewalks and the trails COllie out of the trail dedication requireIl'lent and are not included in the park area so they're two separate issues. They're both above and beyond the subdivision of the developIl'lent but they're both requirements and they're not a joint requirement so I do not feel that requiring the grading is exorbitant. We require the grading on other parks. We required it to be done at Chanhassen Hills, at Lake Susan Hills West and anything else that COllies in has to do the grading as well so. Dean Johnson: I believe this falls under 8 to 10 though doesn't it? We're getting only 9.4... Sietsema: 8 to 10 what? Dean Johnson: 8 to 10 uni ts per acre which is 17%. One other. point if I Illay at thi s tillie, not to change the subj ect here but on the easernent for the trail going through there, the staff, the Planning COllwlission and the eng ineer ing departlllent want the 980 contour as the easeIl'lent 1 ine which would alltoPlatically... Sietsellla: That would be fine. I"'" Dean Johnson: You'll get it on that. Sietesll1a: Staff doesn't have any problell1s with putting the trail through the conservation easeIl'lent. Hasek: Okay. It would go along the 980 but it would still connect to the cul-de-sac? Sietsell1a: He's talking about the nature trail that would connect over to Powers Blvd. above the wetland area. Hasek: Oh okay. Wher.e does 980 go once it leaves the parkland? Sietsell1a: Which one did you say? Hasek: 980. Do you have a red marker or anything? Sietsellla: It's way up. It's the higher red Il'lark there so there's plenty of rooll1 in there. Hasek: It would be a lot easier for us on the graphics that we have printed included some of this stuff so we could see it because it's real difficult to try and transpose that information onto this. Sietsellla: I do have the aerial photo or the aer ial half section if that would help. r- Hasek: Where would the apartIl'lent si t on that on thing? You've sort of sketched it on the outlot. What I 'Ill concerned about is that 980 goes too close to the futul:e apartI1lent building. 5 Park and Rec COItlIllission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 6 """'" SietseItla: It would be right in here as it's shown on here. Hasek: Or the parking area. If it's supposed to be a nature trail, we don't want it right next to the bottom of the slope. SietseIlla: We can go anywhere wi thin that conservation. We can hug the wetland area which would be a little less sloped down there. Hasek: Should we make it 980 or lower then? Sietsema: The conservation easeIllent will be froIlI the wetland up to the 980 so we can go anywhere within that. Hasek: I thought you were telling Itle the trail was supposed to follow the 980. SietseIlla: No. We can go anywhere wi thin the 980. Mary McCawley: And it'd probably be better down here like Lori said where it's not as sloped. Mady: Anybody else have any cOIllments? Schroe~s: I'd just like to say that I'm familiar with the area and I lik the plan and I like staff's recoIlmlendations as they are. I feel that it'~ real inlportant to get it graded as the developI''Ient goes in so we're not looking at sOIllething after the fact again. We've had to deal wi th that in the past as you know froIlI exper ience that we don't want that anYIuore. We would like the si te to be graded as the developIllent goes in. I guess wi th that I 'Ill in favor of staff's recoItlITlendations. Mady: My cOIlmlents on thi s si te. In wal king the si te, beauti ful si te. This is very, the ravine is wonderful actually. The way it's all laid out. There are two distinct areas. There was a very distinct nature area. There's also a very distinct possible active play area. As to requiring grading, I would definite go for recoIT1Illending both fine and rough grading. I look at the site as basically we're getting 5 acres, a little over 5 acres of land but realistically only about half of it looks like it's useable for any intended purpose. The sloped areas simply couldn't be used for anything active and we're getting it but it's not going to help us in our ability to utilize active play area for the density of this size so requiring the grading to me is a way of bringing half the site up to a useable amount in the equation. In my own personal equation of how things work. I like the proposal as Mark's got it laid out in Concept Plan Band I go along with staff's recoItlITlendation entirely. If there's nothing else, I think Ed had a motion. Hasek: Yeah, I do. I just have one comIllent. Most of what we do is supposed to be guided by what's given to us. I think that this fulfills om: understanding of what the requirements are of this developIllent. I....." think that the grading can be accoIT1Illodated...and I think it can all balanc~ out if the developer takes a closer look at it. With that I'd like to Itlake 6 Park and Rec COIl'lIlIission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 7 II"""' a Il'lotion that we go with the recoIl'lIllendations of staff, iteIl'ls 1 through 5 on their Il'leIl'IO on this iteIl'l dated October 20, 1989. To include the possibility of looking at overseeding along with the fine grading to ensure that our site is not eroded away once it's done. I'd also like to include the possibility of moving the parking space to the end of the cul-de-sac and including a sIl'lall area there within the parkland for better access into the park. Erhart: I'll second that. Hasek Il'loved, Erhart seconded that the Park and Recreation COl'lIltission recoPlIllend to approve the Oak View Heights site plan with the following conditions: 1. The developer dedicate the proposed 5+ acres of parkland. 2. The developer do the rough and fine grading on the park site in accordance with a grading plan prepared by the City and seeding after the fine grading is cOl'lpleted. 3. The developer provide a 20 foot trail eaSeIl'lent along the sloped area above the wetlands froIl'I the park si te to Powers Boulevard. ""...., 4. The developer constrnct an 8 foot wide bituptinons trail along the east side of Powers Boulevard, the entire length of the proposed developIl'lent and that such be constructed at the time the street improvements are Illade. 5. The developer construct a 5 foot wide concrete sidewalk on the north side of Jenny Lane and that such be constructed at the time the street improvements are II'lade. 6. Direct staff to look at moving the parking area for the park to the end of the cnl-de-sac. All voted in favor and the motion carried. REVIEW PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION MISSION STATEMENT. SietseIl'la: At the last II'leeting staff was directed to list each of the mission statePlents that were formulated to date. Everything that everybody said so far and include all of those, including Sonth St. Paul's and Brooklyn Park's and you need to jnst go at it and nail down what you want to do. Mady: Anybody have any COl'lIl'lents? I reviewed this on Saturday night and had SOIlle great ideas. Reading through it and picking items out of about 5 of them and putting them all together and then Sunday night when I was si tting down and reading it for real, I couldn't reIl'lember what I had... .,...... 7 Park and Rec COI'II'lission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 8 Robinson: I like the siplplicity of Sue's but it's pretty cOI'lprehensive 1-.-.' think. I also, being...that I aPI like Jan's statePlent about in a financially responsible Planner or whatever but I really think it should be short and sweet and I would say Sue did a pretty good job in filling that up. So I'd go with Sue's in my opinion. Hasek: Wi th the statePlent about financially responsible manner. Mady: I think you could throw financially responsible manner just about anyplace in there. Robinson: Yeah, that's right... I guess you've got to draw the line someplace. Mady: I guess that's kind of understood... Robinson: I think it should be preceeded by the mission of the Chanhassen Park and Recreation Department is to provide and then go on. Hasek: I think we've got a bunch of missions with our I'lissions really are goals so I like the idea of South St. Paul's saying that your primary mission or the focus of our job here is. Erhart: I like the simplicity of Sue's also but she did leave out one item that is important to me and I think you've got to keep in mind and that i to have sOI'lething in there that directs 11S to remind us that we need to ......., protect our aplenities while being financially responsible. But protect amenities is very important. I'd like to see that in on our mission stateI'lent. Hasek: But I think we can accoItIDlodate that. It's like what Jim said. There are a lot of things that we can say beyond this and we could continue with it. What we've got to do is boil it down to what is the Plain objective. Erhart: But that to me is a main objective. Hasek: So the main objective should be to protect the natural amenities of the City. Erhart: I said that's one of them. That's a sPlall statePlent to slip in there and very important. Lash: At the meeting that Dawne and I went to, they said this is what's going to happen. Everybody's got their own personal agenda. What they think is the priority thing and that's why people get off the track at the meetings is because my thing might be financially responsible and Dawne's plight be natural amenities and Jil1l'S might be safety and everybody's got their own personal thing. This is why we get off the track. This is why we argue because everybody gets onto their own personal thing and that's why we've got to come to some kind of agreePlent. I like the fact that .Sue's is short and sweet as far as we're going to publish it in things going out to the public but is it going to help us stay focllsed on what ..."., 8 Park and Rec COIlIIllission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 9 ,..... we're supposed to be doing? I think it's ~aybe a little bit too short and sweet. It's not supposed to be real specific but it's got to be specific enough. Hasek: Let ~e ~ake a suggestion. It sounds like we've all got one thing that ~aybe we'd like to see in here so why don't we just each give our one thing and we'll include the~ all in a state~ent and that way we can all be happy. We can get a consensus and get it done with. Does that ~ake sense? ,...., Lash: 1'111 not pushing for my thing. This is a real rough thing but when I went through the Minutes, the things that I picked out that are in here, I thought I had kind of picked out things that most people. I don't know if I have one for you Ed because I didn't, at that time you were kind of undecided on the whole thing but I know Larry you were real big on the protection and preservation of things and I put in safety and the future I kind of picked up from Ji~. That those are pretty important things to you and things froIlI Dawne and you know I thought I was trying to cover everybody's biggest thing but I can't say that I know what everybody's biggest thing is. And the other thing I wanted to say is, after the last I1leeting, you know I said in here that I thought wholesoIlle sounded like bread and I knew I was uncomfortable with that word and it's taken ~e 2 weeks to figure out why I was uncomfortable with it. I did finally figure out why 1'111 uncoIllfortable wi th that word and I think it's I1laking a value statement. I think it's setting us up as telling other people in town what's wholeso~e and what's not and I don't know if that's one of our goals. ,..... Mady: .. .the Park and Recreation and Natural Resources COIllIlIission. Wherein Chanhassen hasn't been defined as such, at least as far as I can tell so I don't know. I think we all seriously feel very strongly about natural resources. That's why I think ~ost of us moved to this area was because it's such a wonderful natural area. It's not just flat ground. We've got everything out in this town literally and our work tonight with the Cenvesco property just indicates what we think by walking the site and seeing that nice ravine. When I looked at it 2-3 weeks ago on paper and we could fill this s~all and ~inor ravine in and put a ballfield in. Well gee, that's fine. As long as the City says it's legal, we're not hurting the wetlands because we're real concerned about wetlands but this ravine is just basically a drainageway and it's kind of steep. Well that's fine. But after walking it, that's a fantastic natural amenity that I'd hate to give up so I think quality of facilities is kind of a gut feel for everybody and a ~ission statement is going to be real tough to make everybody happy if it's specific so it's just got to be kind of broad, general and real short and it's about the only way you're going to get consensus on things. In the long run, unless you have a leader telling you what your mission's going to be, it's going to be real tough to get a consensus out of more than 3 people. In a corporate environIllent it works because you usually have 1 or 2 people who set out the Illission for everybody else and say this is what you're going to do and that's what you do. But when we have 7 people here trying to decide what ollr Ptlssion' s going to be and we all COllie froPI different areas with different backgrounds and different ideas, it's going to be very difficult to have anything that's real specific and tight so I guess, I like what Ed did with Sue's 9 Park and Rec Corrullission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 10 was to say the central Plission of the Chanhassen Park and Recreation COIlIDlission is to provide facilities, prograrrls that will encourage fun and leisure tiple experiences taking the word wholesorrle out because Jan is right. Wholesome is one of those words that I think we all kind of know what wholesoPle is to us but there's sOPle people that get real concerned when YOIl start br ing ing in beer, dancing, gaPlbling, late night activi ties that will... ....", Robinson: You rrlight note though that the word wholesol'le is in both Brooklyn Park and in South St. Paul's examples. Hasek: The interesting thing is, was it the Brooklyn Park one, that one won SOl'le sort of award? Sietsema: Yes. Robinson: It's in the Brooklyn Park one twice. Lash: Maybe they don't have things like that, they probably don't drink beer there. Mady: I don't know if we're going to reach a consensus on it tonight. Lash: Well I'Iaybe if we take the word wholesolue out, we'll win an award. Mady: What do we get for this? ...,; Lash: T-shirts. Schroers: Do I get a chance here? Mady: Sure. Schroers: I don't see a reason why we can't reach a consensus here. If we take SOllIe of the key things out of each of theIll and combine theIll into one. I think we could start with Sue's and go with providing quality facilities and recreational programs in a financially responsible manner while keeping an eye on environmental issues or something like that. That covers just about everything that we've talked about and still keeps it short and precise. Erhart: I'd move for that one. Mady: I like taking the word progral'ls out and saying recreational opportunities. Schroers: That's fine. Mady: That way you don't have to program these things in there. It's an opportunity to have, whether it be a prograIlIDled opportunity or... Lash: Just a park for children to play at. ...,; 10 Park and Rec CorrlIlIission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 11 ~ Erhart: I think we can reach a compromise too. It won't always be everybody's first choice but we can reach a compromise. Schroers: We're covering the key things that we need to say and we're still keeping it short and to the point. Sietsema: Repeat it. Hasek: Wait a rrtinute. What did you add? You added two things. Erhart: He added financially responsible. Mady: And natural amenities. Schroers: And I eliminated for all ages. Hasek: I'd like to see for all residents. For all the residents so it's comprehensive. So that we take care of the young and the old and the handicapped and everybody because if you don't put all ages, that's great but it eliminates the handicapped. So I'd like to see that put in, all residents. That's everybody that lives here. ~ Mady: But what if you work here. type of thing. Industrial softball leagues and that Hasek: Are they included? Do we want to put live and work? Are we providing...for those people? They're taxpayers for the City in that they're included. Mady: Well they're taxpayers...taxpayers are their companies. Hasek: But the corrlpany is the land owner so that way he's included. Mady: I guess I'd the word resident versus. Lash: For all ages, that includes everybody. Everybody has an age. Schroers: Sure. Whether you're handicapped or not, you still have an age. Erhart: Does that sound okay Ed? Hasek: No. I'd like to see it say for all the residents in the City of Chanhassen. Schroers: I think residents will work because that's who we are providing facilities for. Sietsema: How about citizens? Is that different? ~. Hasek: Citizens. Excellent. Citizens would work too. Lash: Is the Brooklyn Park the one that won the award? 11 Park and Rec Conul1ission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 12 Sietsenla: Yes. --' Lash: They have as many residents as possible. Schroers: No, that's vague. Robinson: That tells me, all but the handicapped. Schroers: Okay, where do you plug that in. Where are we sitting with this thing? Provide quality facilities and recreational progranls. Lash: Opportunities. Schroers: Opportunities for the citizens of Chanhassen in a financially responsible manner while keeping in touch with the environmental issues or whatever. Lash: Do you want citizens in the future too? Do you want future in there too? Hasek: I think that that's part of the planning process is the future. I mean if we planned for the people that were here today, we'd be eliminating 90% of the people that will be here 10 years from now. Schroers: I think if we just say citizens. Mady: Present, past and future. """"" Hasek: We don't want to provide for the dead? Mady: We do. Sietsema: We have a cenletary. Did you have artything that will encourage fun or who1esonleness? Did you take both fun... Lash: No, we don't w~nt fnn and wholesomeness. Mady: We don't want who1esoIlle but we want fun. Sietsema: Alright. The pr iIllary Iltission of the Park and Recreation COIl~ission is to provide quality recreational opportunities for all citizens in a financially responsible nlanner while preserving natural anleni ties. Schroers: Outstanding. I like it. Mady: You took out the word facility there. YOIl said quality recreational opportunities. Sietsema: Facilities are opportunities. Hasek: Programs are actually facilities. ...."" 12 Park and Rec COI"lmission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 13 ".... Sietsema: If you provide a facility, you're providing a recreational opportunity. It's less wordy. If you want me to put facilities in there, it's totally up to you. Robinson: Either one, I make a motion that the mission statement as you read it be approved. Mady: We took out fun, leisure tiPle experience. Hasek: I think that's what recreation is. Leisure time experience. Schroers: Did you make a motion Curt? Robinson: Yes. Lash: What was it? Robinson: That what she read be approved. Schroers: Second. Lash: And this is to be sent to City Council? ,.... S i etseI"la : Yes. Robinson moved, Schroers seconded that the Park and Recreation COI"~ission approve a mission statement as follows: The primary mission of the Park and Recreation COI"IDlission is to provide quality recreational opportunities for all citizens in a financially responsible Planner while preserving natural amenities. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Sietserrla: Now, just a point of clarification then. This is what you have approved. What you have adopted as your ptission statePlent and you're sending this onto City Council letting thePI know this is what it is or are you asking for their approval that this is your plission? Lash: I think we have to have their approval. It isn't going to do us any good if they don't approve it. Hasek: Maybe what we need to do is just get their comment. I don't know what's appropriate. Schroers: Do we even have to bother the Council with it? Can we just use it as a guideline? SietseIlla: I think it would be nice to at least let thenl know what your ~ 1"lission is so long as you've decided one. They'll read it in the Minutes too so maybe we don't need to formally do anything. 13 Park and Rec COIllIllission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 14 Mady: They haven't asked us to do something in this respect so it's a working tool for us. ...,., Robinson: Let theIlI hassle over natural aItleni ties and wholesoItle. Mady: Especially at 2:00 in the morning, right Don? Schroers: I don't think we need to bother them with this. Lash: I feel strongly that we have their approval because if we go ahead and say this is what our goal is and they don't believe that's what our goal is, we're just going to... SietseIlla: It's easy enough for IIle to put a meItIO together.. Hasek: Might I suggest that we let them know what it is. Is they disapprove of it, they can let us know that they disapprove of it. Sietsema: Alright. I will simply then put it on the Consent Agenda or. put it into the Administrative Section. I'll put it in the Administrative Section and Itlake a note on it that if any Council IIlember has a probleItI wi th anything included, to please let us know by contacting Itle and getting back to you or they can place it on the agenda or whatever. Mady: And we can spend 3 more meetings on it. ..."", Schroers: . . .go through this whole thing again and somebody's going to say, well I don't like this word or I don't like that word and we're going to wasting tiIlle on sOItlething that doesn't really mean that much. I Itlean that's... Hasek: This is only as good as this group that's right here and the Council that's there. As soon as there's a change, it's going to change so it's going to be something. I can't imagine that it's going to change. What is there about it that would want to change for crying out loud? Mady: Who knows? CITY COUNCIL UPDATE ON PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION ITEMS. VERBAL UPDATE. Sietsema: The City Council looked at three Park and Rec items last night. One of which was the Lake Lucy public access. The action taken in that area, I basically took the item to theIll to get final direction as to how they wanted to proceed with this or not to proceed and the decision that was IIlade was to get back to the DNR and tell theIll that we don't want theIlI to put a temporary access in at Greenwood Shores. Get back to the property owners and let tpeIll know that we are not pursuing access on either site at this point in time and basically wait and see if the Watershed ever does ItlOVe on thi s again. They've got the funds to finish the Work Plan and th..", revisions that the EPA required but at this point it's not clear in anybody's Itlind that they actually are going to try and get another grant of 14 Park and Rec COIlIIlJission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 15 .,.... this natnre again. Hasek: To do the clean up yon ~ean? ,..... Sietse~a: To do the clean up of Lake Riley, right. So at this point we put everything on hold and let everybody get about their business. Do what they want and at the time that they are going to take action to reapply for any kind of a grant, then we'll have to look at what's available at that tinle for access on Lake Liley because it didn' t see~ appropriate to spend funds on an access there not knowing for sure if there's going to be a grant pnrsued anyway. So that was that. The other one was the review of the appraisals for Carrico property. This update is two fold. Number one is that the City Conncil went along with the direction of the Park and Recreation COIlIDlission to not pursue condemnation of the entire piece of property and also to let yon know that I've had a meeting with Mr. Carrico and he's anxions to get his site plan off of holding and through the developIllent process and is willing to talk to ns about selling ns a portion of the property. The portion that he wants to sell us does include the wetland area but it's up in the air right now as to if that wetland area can be altered to a holding pond and then we could have 4 1/2 to 5 acres or if we have to preserve the whole area and then we'd have about 3 acres so there is still a very live possibility of getting parkland in that property. The drawback of it, the down side of it is that he's got to get site plan approval by the City so that he can go to Met Council to get the MUSA line changed and that process ~ay take quite some time. Meaning they wi 11 be wi thout a park in that whole tiIllefraIlle. Hasek: Don, is that part of your Co~p Plan update? Is that so~ething that yon're working on? Mayor ChIlliel: Yes. Hasek: What's the tiIllefraIlle that you've placed on yonrself to get that kind of accoIllplished. Mavor ChIlliel: I don't think we've reallv established a tiIlle line for it yet but I think it's one of those things: either purchase the property or acquire that property through the process that we go through. In other words, dedicate some of that land to the city rather than buying it. I'd rather see us inquire as to what he plans on developing and what's COIltlng in. I think that right now dOllarwise, it's not there. Nor would he want the total price. If we were to take the total price that he wanted as opposed to the two different appraisals that we've gotten and went back into the County COPIIllissioners to decide, we're afraid that that pr ice would just escalate. Be too high. Mady: Lori, were the residents out there notified as to the pending action of the Park COPIDtlssion? ,..... Sietse~a: Yes, and they were at the ~eeting last night but the item didn't get on the agenda until about 1:00 in the morning so they went ho~e and I called the~ all at midnight and said we're on the agenda in 15 minutes and they were like, I don't think I'm going to make it. 15 Park and Rec COI'Ullission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 16 ....."., Mady: Wel:e they inforI'led of the meeting here thonght? SietseI'la: For Park and Rec? No, they weren't. Mady: We should be very cal:eful because they were a very active group a year ago on this item. ...when I was reading the packet and I should have said sOI'lething to you before I went ont of town becaues they were vel:Y active then. Sietsema: They feel real cOI'lfol:table with the idea of us acquiring pal:t of it. They're fine with that. Mady: Well I 'Ill sure but we should have had theI1'I here. I think we Iltissed sOIllething there. Were there any other items? SietseIlla: Yes. They also appl~oved the l:eCOIllIllendation on the Chanhassen Lion Club accepting the donation and allocating the funds toward the fireplace at the Lake Ann shelter and the soccer lights. Hasek: When you were talking to Council last night, was there any discussion and maybe I ShOllld just ask Don directly. Was there any discnssion about the potential of us buying a park across between TH 41 and CR 117 so we didn't have to I'Iess around with an area that's under pending deve 1 opIllen t? ..."" Mayor ChI'tiel: That's sOI'lething that I had been looking at as well. Hasek: Beautiful property. Mayor ChI'liel: Yes. SietseI'la: That wasn't discussed at the meeting though. Mayor ChIltiel: No. But that I think is very suitable...within that area. Lash: But then you're talking about all these people having to cross TH 41 right? Schroers: No, they have to cross 117. Mady: We're removing a parkland froIlI what the neighbors have been asking for all along and we have the saI'le opportunities across Lake Lucy Road too to a lesser degree. It j nst gets it further and further away froItI the developItlent. . . Lash: What about that other little piece th~t was for sale in our packet? That was like 2.5 acres or soItlething. Mady: It was wet. That was potential wetland I think. Sietsellla: Yeah. There was a wetland on that. It's a bui ldable lot but there's a big portion of it I believe that's a wetland. .."", 16 Park and Rec COIlIIllission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 17 ,..... Mady: Okay. Anything else? Schroers: There is SOllie property over there that got slightly scorched... Siets~la: You may find a huge fence on that piece of property. Between Lake Ann and Lake Lucy on Prince's property. REVIEW OF 1989 LAKE ANN GATE RECEIPTS. SietseIlla: This i tenl is basically just for your inforrtlation type thing to let you know what occurred as far as receipts at Lake Ann this year and to keep, we'll be discussing, establishing the 1990 entrance fee probably in January so this would be, I'll probably attach this memo at that point in time to determine if 1'011 want to continue to charge out there or make a change in that direction. There is no action required on this. It was again for your information. Mady: Since the City Council is undertaking their budgeting process at this point in time, to me it would make a lot of sense for us to tell them one wav or the othe1.: what we feel about this so that thev can include revenues or not include revenues and expenses in their budget process instead of, I inlagine what Don's going to do is assign sonle revenue of the budget in there and if they're figuring on making 5 grand next year, or .,..... Illaking well, $10,000.00, all of a sudden they have a $10,000.00 hole in their budget. It just to me it's smart for us to pass along our indication one way 01.: the other now so that in the budget process they can just have one less item hanging until January, February or whenever. Robinson: I totally agree with that. I think we brought that same issue last year up and $11,000.00 or a net of $5,000.00-$6,000.00 is not a trivial aIllount. I think that's a significant aIllount that we should be budgeting for or not budgeting for. Hasek: I guess when I read thi s, the options are, do we go back to charging everybody that goes through the gate to provide that part of the budget frOIlI the users of that park, or do we dump it? Sietsenla: What I'd like to add is that the amount of money that we took in this year was $11,000.00. That's not a small amount. It's just that last year was so extremely large because it was such a dry and hot year. Everybody wanted to be by the water. This year was very, if you cOIllpare it to when the fee was $4.00 a day and $4.00 for a season pass, we collected about $6,000.00 to $7,000.00 so this is not a low amount of monev. It's just again is do you feel that $5,000.00, what it's going to com~ down to :~eJ;;~:~Y is if we feel $5,eee.ee is worth the hassle of having som~o"~ at ,,-... Hasek: T~at w~s IllY next point. My next point is, I don't but there s gOlng t~ be somebody, as far as I'm concerned gate because otherwlse we're going to lose control of thaf care what we do somebody at the park. Sietsema: You mean charging at the gate. 17 Park and Rec COIlUllission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 18 ...." Hasek: Charging, if we decide not to go with the charging that's fine but there's going to be sOIl'\ebody there to Illoni tor who goes in and out of there I think. I think that's absolutely imperative in that park. Otherwise we're going to end up with more trouble than you'd ever know what to do with. So the question is, how do we provide that service? Does it come out of the general fund or is it given to the City, to the Rec Department in their inflated budget or what happens theJ~e? We have two choices. One, we either go without charging anybody at all because I don't think that it's worth it just to charge a few people and try and pick and choose who those people are that we charge. I mean either everybody that goes through there pays for the use of that park or nobody pays for it and that's the way it ought to be. Schroers: There are exceptions. Hasek: And that is. Schroers: Senior citizens. But basically a users fee is the way to go and YOll collect the users fee through parking. Anyone who drives a vehicle in should pay the fee and if you want to get in free, you walk or you bike or do sOIllething else. Hasek: Maybe that's the way to go. Maybe it's a parking permit. SietseIlla: It is a parking perIlti t. ....." Hasek: So we're not charging for drop off? Is that what it is? SietseIlla: They have to pay at the gate. If they COllie right back out, they get their Illoney back. But as far as having somebody, if we didn't charge, I would jnst as soon see a roving person in the park like the park patrol person on duty because the person in the gate doesn't see what's going on in that park. They see how many cars are cOllling in and if they're bringing in... Schroers: It's not the person in the gate sees what's going on. people that going into the park sees that there is someone at the they know the park is being staffed. There's SOIlleone here. They as soon as they enter the park and that's a deterrent. It's the gate so see that Lash: I think the people that are already paying a fee to use that taeilitv SaV VQU sign up fot Swi~ID\ing lessons or you signed u~ fo~ ~. ~ ~ d ' $45 00 or something, I don't thlnk that softball, you're alrea y paYlng, ., If vou want to make them pay more they should have ~o,pay to gethln,a~~~~i fee ~hould be increased but I for using the faclllty, then t e lnl think we have to have... Hasek' That's another way to look at it beca~se see! that w~s one ~~ing I . f th oftball league lf we dld keep lt was was going to suggest or e s unt is de endent upon hOI SiIllply get stnck right backhinto, t your ~~:~~~ ~~~ number o~ tickets that ...." many people you've got on t e ros ere 18 Park and Rec Comlllission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 19 ,... you get and that might help us a little bit with rosters on some of the tealllS . Schroers: That's what we should do with the ol:ganized things is just- pay at the time of signing up or when you do the league fees. Include it and then each person on the roster gets a sticker or something. Hasek: And $3.00 there maybe won't be quite as bad as having to go through and dig thl:ough your purse for $3.00 at the gate. Maybe that's what the hassle is is paying at the gate. Lash: And the other thing, I've heard comlllents frolll parents who maybe don't live in Chanhassen. They maybe live in Chaska but their kids play maybe once or twice at Lake Ann and mavbe that's the onlv tillle thev're ever going to use that facility and then th~Y've got to pay, they've got to ei ther buy a season pass or they've got to pay $3.00 each tillle to get in to watch their kid play a game that they already paid money. Hasek: The question I would ask theItI is, are you so certain that yonr cOItlIlluni ty doesn't already charge in the structure of things and you just don't know. That's the way that we're doing it is just incorrect and there's a Itlore appropriate way of doing it to accolllmodate people. Nobody is going to complain about an increase of $2.00 or $3.00 for a cost of service at the beginning of the year. ,... Sietsellla: Right now the way it is, a lot of people get charged a sItlall fee to use the park. If you're in a program you paid for the program. If you come in the park, you pay to get in the park. The other way to do it and maybe cities do this is in the softball registration fee, they charge you a lllaintenance fee or a park developItlent fee wi thin, that helps keep up. Replace the fences. Keep the lights going. It's a chunk of the l-egistration 1'Ioney that goes into the lllaintenance or the developl'lent fund to help keep up the fields and it would be the same applied to the people that are taking so many lessons because they're definitely using the facilities there. There's a lot of different ways to approach it. We don't have to charge someone at the gate and when we have the park shelter out there with the concession and the boat rental there, there will be people on staff there and there will be other ways to bring in. Schroers: I think that's good. That maintenance fee is good and all that but I think each and every person that drives a vehicle into that park needs a sticker and they get issued that sticker through whatever Illeans. If they stop and they pay their $3.00 at the gate, they get their sticker or if they belong to a program, they get their sticker at the time that they signed up and then they're going to have to be responsible for having that sticker in order to get into the park because it doesn't work if you have some people going in with stickers and other people going in without. That doesn't work. Everyone has to have a sticker. ",....., Hasek: There's one ItIOle coml'lent here and I didn't see catching that. There's some families that do have two vehicles like mvself and the question is, which vehicle goes in. I don't Itlind buying two stickers. 19 Park and Rec COlllIlIission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 2~ Schroers: The extra sticker is half price or so~ething. ....", Sietsellla: If you don't have a sticker, you can put it on... Hasek: Yeah. Is it necessary to have a sticker afixed to the vehicles is the question I would ask. Schroers: You've got to have a sticker, I don't care where it is. Mady: Like two years ago I had it stuck on a piece of plexiglass and whatever car I took, it went in the car. Lash: We did that too although a lot of times we ended up with two cars over there. Schtoers: You just give people the responsibility of just tell them, do you want to get into the park without paying, you're going to have to have a sticker and that's it. Mady: My only COIlUllent on that is the problenl we ran into 2 years ago with the Little League players and it's going to be more and more so now with Babe Ruth playing at that one field every night. We have people conting in froItI Minnetonka. People from Chaska. People froITl Excel sior. People froItl Shorewood. Allover the place. They're co~ing in to watch their kids play ball and those are the people that yelled and screa~ed 2 years ago. They got upset about having to pay a daily fee to watch their son play. ....", Hasek: They don't have to pay a daily fee. Schroers: There has to be so~e kind of a progra~ if they're going to play ball. Mady: But it's the park attendant. Sietsellla: How does he know they're conting to play? Mady: How do we handle that proble~? The gate attendant being able to sort through who's telling the~ a fib. Hasek: That's what I'ITI saying. What we're talking about is everybody having a sticker so now the question is, that's the whole point at this junction I think. The point is, your kid will get one when he registers for the progra~ and it goes into the vehicle of the parent's car now so the only question is, at the gate is where's your sticker. My kid's in the program, where's your sticker? (There was a tape change at this point.) Sietsema: Well cOItlpany picnics aren't a problem. Hasek: I don't think that needs to be a problem. ..""". 2~ Park and Rec COl'llllission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 21 ,..., SietseIlla: We handle those totally different anyway. They COITle in and they give us a business card and we bill them. We bill theITl for a daily pass for every business card that carnes in. Each car has to give a business card or we Illail theIlI out tickets and they hand in the tickets. So we count up the tickets that we get and we bill them for that many daily passes. Hasek: So we could do basically that sallie thing for, I wonder how hard that would be for the other teams corning in. How many other teams do we have coming in for that facility up there? Sietsema: In the little kids program? Hasek: Yeah. Are there a lot? Sietsema: Well, yeah. Every week they play another. Schroers: Don't they have to sign up and aren't they included into the Chanhassen program? SietseIlla: Wha tit is right now is the Chanhassen kids are in the South Tonka Little League program. Schroers: And at that time, can't all the people that need access to the park get a sticker? ,.... SietseIlla: If you aSSllIlle tha t the Chanhassen teaIlI plays every other teaIlI at least once at hOllie, then everybody in South Tonka Li ttle League is going to need a sticker. Hasek: All we're offering is, that revenue is not cOIlling into our recreational program is it? Sietsema: No. Hasek: It's going into the South Tonka. Lash: They'd all get the passes in that they could use all SUIlIDler. Is there a way that we could set up a prograIlI for youth activities a teIllporary that could be used. Mady: A youth activities pass. Lash: So that way if they caITle in on a Sunday afternoon when you know there's nothing going on, that it wouldn't be valid. They wouldn't be able to get in then. Robinson: I doubt if they'd come over here and use it. r SietseIlla: The adIl'linistration of stuff like that is really, you could get theIl'I all out there. First of all, you've got 2 people that do registration for South Tonka and they get theIl'I all out to the coaches and the coaches get theIlI all out to the kids and half the kids get theIlI out to their parents. So then the parents COIl'le out and half of theIl'I have theITI and half 21 Park and Rec COPIPlission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 22 of thePI don't and they say, I never know. My kid never brought one hOPle 01:'" we registered late and didn't get one. Or they didn't have them yet when we registered. I mean you're going to hear that kind of stuff. It's an adminstrative nightmare. It's easier just to say, are you watching Babe Ruth? Yeah. Okay, go. Hasek: Or ask them if they're watching volleyball then you know that you charge them because there's no volleyball going on. Lash: It nsed to be a few years ago if yon had a uniforPI on, or sOPleone in your car had a uniform on. Hasek: It just seems to me that there's a way that that could be done. Maybe the tickets are collected at the gate. I don't know but it sounds to Pie like what we're talking about... SietsePla: As far as the adul t softball league, that's a breeze. That's not a problePI. We can include $100.00 extra bucks in their registration fee and give thePI 20 sticker s. We did that before. Hasek: The question I was going to ask before we got off the track, was how do onr fees generally COPlpare, our prograPI fees compare wi th other cities? Are we in the ballpark? Are we low? SietsePla: We're getting closer because we were so high. We were so high before. We were like, when I first started here in Chanhassen it was $4.~ a day for a daily pass. $4.00 for a season pass if you were a resident and $25.00 for a season pass if you were a non-resident. Hasek: The question that I asked was related to the programs. For example, registration fees for men's softball. Are we in the ballpark? Sietsema: We're in the lower scale. Hasek: So we could afford to take a little bit of a b~lp and not get a lot of complaining about we're the highest in town, which is typically what happens. Sietsema: Todd did an evaluation survey. He sent it out to all the Planagers and he'll be able to answer that question more clearly at the next Pleeting becaues he's going to present that to you but basically people, there wasn't a lot of cOPlplaints about the fee. We are between, we're not the lowest. We're between the middle and lowest. We're sOPlewhere in ther.e in the lower half. He's continually trying to buItlp that up. We do cover our referee fees and the tournament fees and the softball, buying the balls and that kind of stuff. The hard costs that we have but what he was trying to establish is getting that up to a point where we could kick in to help maintain and develop the fields. Right now we're replacing some of the fences on the Lake Ann fields. If that comes out of the park dedication fund, it's taki ng away froPI the neighborhood park developPlent fund. So we're looking at ways to do that. """'" 22 Park and Rec COPlIllission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 23 "..., Hasek: You had mentioned adding another $100.00 to the fee. I don't know, was that where we're at right now? $2.00 to get in? Sietsema: Right now it's $5.00 for a season pass for a resident and it's $2.00 or $3.00 a day. Hasek: Okay, so we could arbi tr ar i ly pick a nUlllber and say add another $50.00 to it and still give them their stickers right? I mean it doesn't mean that we have to charge $5.00 but we could. We say we'll add another $50.00 in here and you get the stickers for getting into the prograPI. I think you can work that out. I honestly don't think we have to pullout of the recreation budget nor out of the City's budget for that part. I really think that that will work. Even some of the glitches can be worked out if we really put our minds to it. So maybe that's the direction that we're giving Council is not worry about us. We'll take care of that part. Figure out a way. Mady: ...1 don't think there are enough fees out there to take care of the park. SietseIlla: No. Mady: That park costs us a lot of money to maintain. ,....., SietseIlla: It costs a lot and the beach prograIlI costs a lot. The beach program alone costs about $12,000.00. Robinson: When will the budget be concluded? Sietsema: It should be done by the first half of December. Mayor ChIlliel: The 27th. Robinson: Have we got some time to think about this? Everybody. Mady: We should do sOIllething by next meeting I would think. They need to get information. These poor guys aren't going to sit down on December 15th and start thinking about the budget. Sietsenla: They're working on the budget now. We have our park capi tal improvenlent progranl into thenl already. This really represents such a snlall amount of nloney that when you consider the aplOl1nt of cost that are out there. When you get down it, we brought in $10,000.00 and it costs us $5,000.00 to have sonlebody out there. That means we're tal king about $5,000.00. It pays for half the beach prograPI. It pays for mowing the lawns or it pays for replacing the fences. Sure, it does contribute but we don't actually see it. It goes into the general fund so we don't actually see that and when you talk about $5,000.00 in the overall general fund, that's where Todd is beginning to wonder if $5,000.00 is worth the headache of having to charge a fee at all. ,..... Robinson: I guess I disagree with that. 23 Park and Rec COITmtission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 24 Sietsema: year ago. tonight. .."", Well that was the direction that the COPUltission was giving Pie a So anyway, there's no decision that has to be made on that Hasek: I think we have to be more fiscally responsible. Lash: $5,000.00 is $5,000.00. Schroers: Let's not cOPlplicate this as much as we can and eliITtinate the things that we know we don't need to deal with. You said adult softball is no probleITI. You've got that taken care of. SietseITla: It's not a problePI if you want to charge them to get into the park. This year, see we've waivered back and forth on this so ITlany tiITles. First we ITlade theITI all buy a sticker at the park. Or the first year they had to corne into City Hall and all buy a sticker. The second year, they could either buy it at City Hall or out at the park. The third year, they got them, they could buy them at the time that they registered their team and half theITI did and half of theITl didn't and they bought thenl out at the park and there was always the hassle out at the park. This year we didn't charge anybody to get into the park if they were in a program. Schroers: And it worked well? We still made $5,000.00. Let's do it that way and not make a big deal out of it. Robinson: Can we put it on the agenda for the next ITleeti ng and ITlaybe you--" can ITlake a recoITUllendation and we can think about it. Hasek: It seems to me like the easiest thing to do is just to give everybody that's in the prograITI a sticker and charge thenl. Lash: And charge them $5.00. You said that's a thousand people right? Hasek: Right. Sietsema: And that's a very easy concept for me to think of it that way if all the registrations happen in Chanhassen. I could do that in a ITlinute and it would not be a probleITl. But everybody who takes swiITmling lessons registers in Minnetonka. Everybody who's in the South Tonka league, registers in South Tonka. Hasek: We'll figure that out. There's got to be a way that we can accommodate those people somehow. Get theITl a sticker. Schroers: That needs to change. If they're using the park here in Chanhassen and registering in Tonka...have theITl COITle here to register. Robinson: Why not do what we did this year. If they're in the program, go on in. Mady: We ITlay just need to bUITlp our program fees up and not give a sticke~--, Hasek: That's another thing. 24 Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 25 "'" Mady: The logistics of giving stickers out is a problem. Hasek: The problem is giving the people...carrying the brunt of that thing. There are a lot more people that go out there to use that park. Are the people that are in the progra~ls necessarily the ones that do most of the damage or is it the family that goes in there on a weekend and tears the place apart. The kid that goes in there and drives across the softball field in his automobile that's doing the damage out there. It seems to me like what we want to do is to charge to get into the park and get the people that use the park to pay for it. Sietsellla: What we need to identify, what do we want to pay for. Robinson: Parking. Sietsema: Do you want to pay for the maintenance of the park? Do you want to pay for future developlllent of the park or the prograllls that are in the park. Hasek: Sure. Sietse~la: Okay. If that's what you want to pay for, then we need to figure out how much those cost and we need to determine, given past ,... history, how llluch we're going to charge. Schroers: We want the fees to go towards that. We don't want the fees to encolllpass it. We don't want to budget spec i fically by charg ing entrance fees into the park to cover the overall cost of maintenance and expansion and everything else. We just want to be able to add the ~Ioney that we collect froPI fees to the cost of operating the park and the programs and the developlllent. Just use the money that we collect for entrance into Lake Ann to support our costs at Lake Ann. Hasek: The SaITle thing's going to happen I'm hoping with Bandilllere when that gets organized. Sietse~la: And what about Lake Susan? Hasek: Susan's another real good possibility. That's a very high profile park and I think once that thing gets developed, there's going to be a lot of people down there picnicing and stuff. It's the big park. The co~~unity parks, the little local parks can take care of themselves, or it's our job to take care of them but those big COIlI~luni ty parks where we've got people coming from allover the place, those are the ones that we need to, those are the ones that I think we need to try to get to carry theIllselves. There's a bunch of ways to do it. We can either do it that way or we can throw the ~Iaintenance of those and all of those programs into the general fund and it comes out of the taxes. ,-.. Sietserlla: That's the way it is now. 25 Park and Rec COPIDlission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 26 Hasek: One way or another, the people that use it are going to pay for it~ and it seems to me like if we can catch people going into the gate, then we get people that are coming from out of town to make their contribution. If we don't do that, then we in Chanhassen are going to be providing a park for anybody that wants to go in there and I don't think that's right. I don't think that's being fiscally responsible. One way or another we have to... Mady: Can I move to table this item until our next meeting? Sietsema: What specifically do you want me to bring back? Mady: I think we've had enough discussion tonight so that people can think about whether or not we're going to charge a fee and how to go about doing it and the next meeting we'll talk about how we want to do it. Robinson: How did you handle the prograPls this year? There should be some. . . Sietsema: If you were in a program, you didn't have to pay to get into the park. Robinson: But I mean, that's the type of thing, if we could have some information on what's been done. Mady: And Todd's survey Illay be helpful too. A second on the Illotion? ...., Robinson: Yes. Mady moved, Robinson seconded to table discussion of the 1990 Lake Ann Park gate fees until the next meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. VOLUNTEERS FOR HALLOWEEN PARTY. SietseIlla: We need people like crazy. Grab your wife. Grab your kids. Grab your kid's wife. Hasek: My wife volunteered for something else and I have responsibility for the little ones this year. The same thing happened last year. She pre-empts me. Mady: I'll have my wife call. She's signed up. Sietsema: Do you know what she wants to do? Mady: No. I know she's willing to help. I don't give her specific job.. SietsePla: We needs characters dressed up in costuPle to answer these door~....." to Plake it really fun for the kids. We need to know if you're going to be a scarey costume or a friendly one. 26 Park and Rec COllmtission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 27 ".... Robinson: Put me down for anything but the costume thing. I realize that's your most important element. Mady: What tillIe's clean up. I can probably COllIe up for clean up. Sietsema: We'll put you down for decorations and clean up. Robinson: Okay. Sietsema: That's early and late. Robinson: I've got a problelll wi th ear ly. Sietsema: How early is early do you have? Set up can begin only after school ends which means we begin at 3:30 and must be completed by 6:00. What tillle can you be there? Robinson: 6:00. Sietsellla: Okay. You lllight as well just be clean up then. Robinson: If you want me to do something else, I can help take riders or something if you want. ,..... Sietsellla: Alright, crowd control. Mady: I could be up for clean up probably Lori. Sietsellla: And Linda you think will be in a costume? Mady: I don't know about that but I'll have her talk to you. Sietsema: Tell her she has to. Larry? Schroers: I'll try to come early to help set up. I don't have a costume and I don't know if I 'Ill going to come and be a spook or not anyway. I'll tr~ to come early and lend a little labor. Sietsellla: Ed, decorating committee. Mady: I'll be on the clean up cOllmtittee. Hasek: Until what, 6:00 roughly? Sietsema: Yeah. We have to be ready by 6:00. So if you want to help crowd control after that. If anybody knows of anybody who'd be willing to come up and help. ~ Mady: Sue Boyt will come up and help. Bill will too. Don, he just left. 27 Park and Rec COI\1I'lission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 28 --' COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS: Schroers: Last year we were approached by SOI\1e of the residents of the South Lotus Lake area wanting a skating rink for their neighborhood in that area of that pUIlIp house or somewhere down there. They were told at the time that the ground was going to have to be leveled out and a little bit of ground work done before they could have a rink. I got a phone call from one of thenl. He's concerned that the ground work has not been done and they would like to see that done. They do want a neighborhood skating rink. They think there are plenty of kids in the neighborhood that would get good use out of it. So I said I would bring it up and they said they would like sonle kind of indication as to what we intend to do in regards to that. Sietsenla: Do you know who it was? Schroers: Yes. Sietsema: will you tell me? Schroers: No. Sietsenla: Well, how can I get back to him? Schroers: I can get back to him. Are we going to do sOI\1ething there? .....", Sietsema: I can talk to Dale tomorrow. It's a secret? A secret request can't be taken Larry. Schroers: It's not really a secret but I don't want to put someone on the spot. Sietsenla: I would have just gotten a hold of hinl and let hinl know what Dale, what his schedule is and if he could do it. If and when. Schroers: Okay, how about letting nle know what Dale said and then I'll del i ver that to hinl and you won't have to put SOl'lleone on the spot. Robinson: I'll tell Craig for you. I couldn't resist that. He lives across the street from l'lle and I didn't want anybody to think it was me. I asked Larry to say that for me. A. DISCUSSION OF TRAIL PLAN REVISIONS AND PRIORITIES, JIM MADY. Mady: I asked Lori or a while back we were talking about and I mentioned sOl'llething about trail plan revisions hoping to get something moving and some thoughts moving. Something happening and froI\1 time to tiI\1e there are residents conling in front of Council asking for sidewalks to be put in and street developl'llents. We don't have a funding mechanism to take care of " that so it's either going to be assessed back or people think it can COI\1e ~ out of the trail plans and we really don't have anything going on right now. I would like to see this Corrmlission, since they're charged with the / 28 Park and Rec COPIIllission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 29 ".... trail plan to start figur ing out a way to get it done. We have SOllie very ser iOllS questions. Some ser iOllS probleIlls out there wi th safety. Highway 101 from the north border to the sOllth border and all along that road. It' s te'~ r ible. That road is being upgraded in the very near flltnre and we should have a way of doing it. We right now don't have a way of doing it. At least as far as I know we don't have a way of doing it. Minnewashta Parkway is going to be, they're studying that next year with figuring out how to do it. That road's going to get improved in the next couple years. We don't have any Illoney to put a trail out there. Sietsenla: We have about $10,000.00 in the trail fund. Mady: That doesn't go very far does it? At the City Council meeting the time before last, one of my neighbors asked the City Council to put up a sidewalk on Frontier Trail when that road gets improved next year. They looked at me and said, YOll guys are going to pay for that right? Well, gee guys we're talking about probably $40,000.00 here. Lori just said we have $10,000.00 so I think we need, this body needs to get behind something and figure it out and my thought is, the first step is to find out what it's going to cost to do Minnewashta Parkway. TH 101 from basically the Minnetonka border to like pioneer Trail. Those are the areas that are being developed. They have safety problenls. Possibly Frontier Trail. We need to find out what those costs are and what financing options are. The Ci ty Illay be going to the residents in February or March wi th a referenduIlI J!I""'" for a cOIllnlunity center. It would be the time to.. .that on if we want to go with a referenduPI. If there's another way we want to do it, well then we need to find that out but I know that the interest is out there. I've been getting COPlIllents froIlI people from aronnd the City about different trails in different areas and if we don't figure it out now, this is what this comIltittee is supposed to be doing. We can't wait for sonlebody to bring sOIllething to us. We have to be somewhat proactive. That's what we're here for is to be the eyes and ears for the Council. We can't wait for people to be doing our job. Sietsenla: That's not in the mission statenlent. Mady: I guess I'm just, we need to start working on it and if I had the time, I'd be pushing this real hard. Unfortunately I've been working on the conlnlUni ty center for 3 years and I just don't have the time to pnsh the trail plan but I'm seeing nothing happening. Sietsema: I got another letter yesterday from a man in Chanhassen Hills. I thought it SOIllewhat ironic that the developer of Chanhassen Hills developer would hand out the Comprehensive Trail Plan as a selling point and he indicated in his letter that that was the clincher because he moved here fronl Eden prairie and he was familiar with the trails and used the trails heavily over there and having seen that the trails were coming in Chanhassen, that was the clincerh for him to purchase that property. Now he found that the funding portion of it has failed twice and he's ~ interested in being active in promoting the trail plan and if it goes to referendunl. I invited him to come tonight but it was pretty short notice because I just got his letter yesterday. " 29 Park and Rec COIlIPlission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 30 Mady~ I would like to see you call him. --' SietseIlla: It wi 11 be in your adIlti stra ti ve section next time. Mady: I would like to see anybody on this cOIl~ission to get active in it. Take SOllIe tiIl'le and really find out what people want out there. It's a learning process. I think we have some very good quality people on the last trail task force. SietseIl'la: I think they are still interested in being involved. Mady: I don't doubt that we can generate SOIl'le interest. SietseIl'la: In fact I've gotten a couple of naIlles. I started making a list of people that called that said they would be interested in helping out when we started thinking about it IIlore seriously again. Mady: I don't know if we need to be as comprehensive as we were last tiIlle saying we put one here. We put one there. We put theIll everywhere but we need to get SOIl'le info:t:l"lation, input frOIlI people and then start IIloving on this thing. Why the trail plan if it's something, well we want to do theIl'I as developIllents COIl'le in. As developIl'lents come in, we don't do them. We had a great one right up here at Centex HOl'leS and threw it out. We don't know where we're going. We're languishing on this thing and wobbling back and forth and it's getting ridicnlous. I think we need to start getting this thing nailed down again and find out what the City really truly want~ and get in some good information here. Hasek: Part of the problel'l wi th sOIlle of the systeIlls that have failed lately is that they weren't implemented when the developIl'lent went in. My understanding is that that's sOIl'lething that we're going to promote now ablost on everything that goes in. When the roads are graded, the trail s will go in at the saIl'le tiIlle and that should be wr i tten right into the developer's agreement so it's done iIl'~ediately. SietseIlla: And engineering is taking a more active role in that in pursuing to make sure that those requirements, conditions on the approval of the site plan are done ill~ediately because otherwise they say, well if we put them in too soon and then they don't get them in and you never know if people are. If we get thel'l in right away, people are aware when they look at their lot that the sidewalk is there. Then they can base their decision on . . . Mady: Cold hard facts. Sietsema: Okay. I will put that on a future agenda for further discussion as to how we would IIlodify the existing plan then for prioritization. Hasek: Are we going to modify the existing plan? Sietsel'la: Well I I'lean as far as I think the COIllprehensi ve Plan stands but.........,. as far as what is vital to us. 30 Park and Rec Comlllission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 37 IfI"" 1989 aerial photographs because I'm working on a project on TH 5 out there but I took a piece and copied the park if anybody wants an aerial photograph of Lake Ann Park. Sietsellla: This is a recent one? Hasek: This is your 1989 photography. I only have 4 of thelll. If anybody else wants another one, I can get SOllie more. They're available upstairs. Just have your city run a copy of it. The question I was going to ask is, when he talks about that, would you have him ask whoever he talks to about the trees, moving the trees from around the park, if it makes some sense if they're not going to move thelll this year, if they were to tree spade thelll this year. Go in, spade them and leave them right in place because they're going to set roots all winter long and it might illlprove their moveability next spring. I'm not exactly sure but it's a question that maybe should be asked. It certainly is not going to cost but a couple hundred dollars and it will take them a half a day to move them. Sietsema: They should still be able to get that done this year but then I alll hesi tant to say tha t anything can get done in any alllount of t1nle lately because things haven't been coming through. I 'Ill real disappointed that the grass seed did not get down sooner at Lake Ann. Hasek: What's around the corner? Is Natural Green still in there and "'" they. . . Sietsema: Next to Lake Ann, yeah. Robinson: When did the grass seed go in out there? Mady: September. They were sodding it like around the 10th. Right between the 10th and 15th of September. They were sodding. Sietsema: And they didn't seed until after that. I think it was when I got back. It was at the end of September. It was ridiculous that they didn't get that done earlier but it seellled like everytillle they were going to do something, they had a lot of trouble with the soil compaction for the parking lots out in that area. Then whenever it rain, it took a long time because of the soil types out there, it took a long time to dry out so then they couldn't get in there for a couple days before they could get back in there and work so that's just the way it worked out. I was very disappointed that we didn't have turf out there this season. Mady: I guess I yelled and screamed about that in July and it just carried on through. Engineering didn't consider us a very important item and that's just one of those things. Sietsema: I don't know that it was engineering. Like I said, just all the probleIlls that they had out there wi th the soils contr ibllted to their. .~ Robinson: So now it hasn't rained. Mady: It's dormant until next spring. 37 Park and Rec COInnlission Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 38 -' Sietsema: I'm sure they're going to have to reseed in the spring. Mady: I wanted to just update everybody on what's happening with the cOInnluni ty center proposal s. Right at this point in tiItle there are two distinct proposals. It went in front of the City Council two weeks ago now to update them and get their blessings to go in front of the cOInnlUni ty at large. Just to bring it to the people and find out what they want. What the people want and we kind of got a mixed reaction at the City Council. There are two different sites. Specifically there's the site up here at the school, adjacent to the school and then there's a site adjacent to Lake Ann on property we have to purchase from Eckankar. The two sites are, facility wise identical with minor exception that the school site we would be building what they call specialty classrooms. A band type rOOPl. A computer lab type room. ROOP1S that can be used not for classroom space but for specialty items. Music, COPlputers, choir., those kinds of types of rooms that are special in nature and also be used at night for cOPIDluni ty groups for craft rOOl'lS and those kinds of things. It's 5 to 7 classrooPls. About a quarter of a l'dllion dollars is added to that site. The two different sites are different froPI each other in that one carries a price tag at Lake Ann in the ballpark of 4.1 million dollars and the site here at the school with the classrooms is about 3.4 million dollars. Now those are old costs. They're being updated now as they were estimated a little over a year ago and inflation has set in on building costs. There are some financing techniques that are available at the school site that aren't available at the Lake Ann site. The school site is considerably cheaper to-' the taxpayer, to the normal homeowner than the Lake Ann site and those are all items that have to be discussed and get the impressions of the residents. The basic reasoning for that is, it has to do with the excess tax levv that the Chaska School District has on the tax increment district of I think it's 6 Plils. What happens there is there is 6 mils assessed on all that new property and that money, due to a quirk in the tax laws available for cities and school systems to use in shared projects and it has to be done wi thin the tax inCrel'lent di str ict or adj acen.t to. It can't be done outside. Lake Ann would be too far away to be done. We don't right now know what the final tax impact is on either site for a couple reasons. One, we don't have final cost nUPlbers. Those are being updated right now. Also, the new referenduPI is going out to Chaska voters of another 5 mils. If that gets added in, that tax windfall dollars that's available for the school site would go from roughly a million dollars of building ability to 2 Plillion dollars of building ability and it makes a huge difference in the bottom line property taxes to people and we need to get that information made available to use and we won't have it until Noveplber 7th I. think is the referendUPl for the school. But in any event, we're going to be going to the people with communi ty nleetings as we did previously. We're going to be holding major community meetings at schools in each area of the city. We're going to have one at the Chan Elementary School. We'll be having one out at the Minnewashta Middle School. A third one over is it Clear Springs is in the Minnetonka District off of TH 101 so it handles the people on the north side. We'll be going to various cOl'lmuni ty groups. The Lion's Club. The Rotary. The Chamber. The Fire ...." Hall. The Legion. Anybody and everybody. Concerned citizens for whatever the heck it was. 38 Pal:k and Rec Comndssion Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 39 ,.... Lash: For the future of Chanhassen. Mady: FOl: Chanhassen, yes. We're going to try and get it on their agenda. Anybody with a group we're basically going to try and go to it and talk to thePI. Present both options. We have a survey of about 4 questions that we'll be handing out after we ~ake the presentations so we can informed response back. It's very important that the response we get is an informed response. We had a booth at the Oktober fest and got qui te a few COlllIuents fro~ people. I think I handled questions fro~ about 25 people down there. They were basically I would guess, 90% of them very positive. There were about 3 people that caPle by and told us what they thought and that was fine. We let thePI air it out because there opinion is just as valid as anyone elses. That gave us so~e ideas of what their thinking is and that's help always in Plaking a presentation to know where areas of concern are. We're going to be going to the people in the very, very near future and what we want to make sure happens this ti~e around is that good solid information is made available. That there's not so~e erroneous stuff going on. I've already got a call today froPI a lady who's doing sOPle kind of a survey in our neighborhood. I have no idea who asked her to do it and what the pUl:pose of it is but she didn't even know that there were two different sites. She's asking people to give her responses and she doesn't even know what the thing was. I tried to call her 3 ti~es tonight and there was no one ho~e so I will continue to try and get a hold of her and find out "-""what's going on so we can know what's happening in the cOPIDllmity. The worse thing you can have in any kind of l:efernedu~ process is to have bad infor~ation being thrown out because then all of a sudden you don't know what's being said. It could go either way. Somebody could be telling you that you can get Lake Ann for free. Well it's not free. You just never know what inpnt can affect their votes so we need to have people well inforPled. Tha t' s the basic ~i ssion I think of the COIlIDlUni ty Center Task Force is to presenting well informed information to the people so that they can then Plake an inforPled decision. That's it unless anybody got any specific questions. The task force meets again tomorrow night in this rooPI at 7:30 if anybody's interested, COllIe to the Pleetings. They're always open to the public. Schroers: You should just contact those people froPI the last referenduPI that said it was going to be simple to build one out at Lake Ann. Sietsema: They're on the task force. Mady: There are SOllIe on the task for who have said that, and we invite anybody. We tried to get a couple of people and we just couldn't get from the different areas of the cOIlIDluni ty becuse we wanted thePI to be represented. We had an individual fro~ the north side of Lotus Lake and he moved out of town. That was unfortunate because there's a couple other people over there who were very active the last time around. I couldn't get a hold of thelll. One had an unlisted phone nu~ber and you want their ,...... input and we just siIllply couldn't get it. It's unfortunate so now we have . to go to the ~eeting and hope we're not going to get surprised too ~uch. 39 Park and Rec CornIldssion Meeting October 24, 1989 - Page 40 ~.'\ -~ Schroers moved, Hasek seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor~ and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 9:30 p.m.. Submitted by Lori Sietsema Park and Rec Coordinator Prepared by Nann Opheim ....,i -"" 40