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PRC 1989 11 14 PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING ""'" NOVEMBER 14, 1989 .'-+ V ChaiJ:I'lan Mady called the Pleeting to ol:del: at 7:30 P.PI.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Sue Boyt, Ed Hasek, Curt Robinson, Jim Mady, Jan Lash and Lar.ry Schroers MEMBERS ABSENT: Dawne Erhart STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Recreation Supervisor APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Schroers Ploved, Lash seconded to appr.ove the Minutes of the Park and Recreation COll\Plission dated October 24, 1989 as anlended by Larry Schroers on page 31 to change the vote on the Plotion to, all voted in favor except Sue Boyt who abstained and the motion carried. PRIORITIZATION OF PARK PROJECTS AND FIVE YEAR CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM. (Recording of the meeting started at this point is the discussion.) Lash: Jipl as long as you have a copy of the bndget, do we have tha t in ~there... interpretive signage for $3,000.00? Hoffman: That's in '90. Mady: We've kind of batted aronnd the interpretive signage topic and said it's nice that we don't have to put a lot of stuff. We just don't want to fill our par.ks with signs either.. Boyt: Bnt that'd be a good place for it becanse the school has said they use that park for nature study for the elePlentary school. Mady: It'd be one of those thi ng s tha t nlaybe we can pick up a biology I'laj or froPI the Uni ver si ty, sOPlebody like that who wants to work as an intern to do a intern project. I'm not necessarily saying put the signs IIp bnt telling us this would work and that would work. I don't know if that's a biology l'laj or or horticul tur ists or wha t but... natural ist? Schroers: Yeah, a naturalist. We're learning about interpretive signage. It's pretty seasonal. I mean things change. In order for it to be really effective. You need to change the signs like 4 times a year. It gets really costly and real involved and you know, a few things that are perl'lanent that are of particular interest, a description sign for that would be fine but I think you're getting carried away with all kinds of signs. People walk up to them in the middle of the winter and they're looking for an oak leaf and there isn't an oak leaf you know. ~Hasek: The ones that I've seen that work the best are the ones that talk about land fOJ:I'IS and other natural featnres sirnply besides the oak woods. They might address the fact that this is a natural stand of white oak Park and Rec COI'lIl'Il ss i on Meet i ng November 14, 1989 - Page 2 forest on the edge of a pond created by the glacial ITlel t. .. Those types or-' things because when yon talk about generalities, they last a while. Hoffman: I think it's a fairly good idea. I'm just a little uneasy as I don't know maybe some of YOll abont the npkeep. The ITlaintenance. The vandalism aspect. It's a fairly isolated park. Boyt: There's always a lot of little vandals hanging out there. Hoffman: Yeah, maintenance people aren't in there every day. It's not a real highly developed where people would think about doing something in that park before they did it down there. They'd just go ahead and hack away. Schroers: I guess if I had a preference, I would just do as little in that park as possible. I'd jnst leave it as natural as we can. Hasek: I'm not opposed to that. Mady: I had a question on that park. I know one individual lives right on the corner of the trail right off of Laredo who takes his dog every night through the trail and allows his dog to do his daily constitution on the trail everv dav. I honestlv don't know what we can do abont that but it j nst bugs the heck ont of I'II~ when I r ide by there and I see hiITl doing that. Hofil'Ian: Ca 11 our fr iendly CSO' s. They do that. They get those calls ....."I quite often. If I could, if anybody's in the park over the next conple years, just to keep an eye on the trees that the Boy Sconts planted in there. See what they do. Put what, 5,000 trees down there. Seedlings this past fall. SOllIe aren't bad so we'll see how they do. Mady: Hopefully about a third of them will come onto Hoffman: They will. 95% or better. Robinson: What kind of trees? HoffITlan: Two kinds of spruce, a birch tree, a ITlaple.and a larch. Rice Marsh Lake Park. Robinson: Interpretive signage down there. I don't know how...you can't get in there. HoffIllan: That's something we can probably take out of there as well for 1990. Off street parking was paved this year. Lash: Where's the off street parking? HoffITlan: You just drive into the cul-de-sac and then there's a little offshoot there and there's a sITlall parking lot with a sign. That is it. Lash: Okay. I parked there. I just didn't know that's where it was. ....." Park and Rec COl"llltission Meeting Nove~ber 14, 1989 - Page 3 ,...., Hoff~an: We received a call just a couple of weeks ago for, question fro~ a new resident in there about the ice rink there at Rice Marsh Lake. Does it have a warnting hOllse, etc., etc. so went over the nle}~ i ts or the costs of putting a war~ing house at each of our neighborhood parks as well and what that would take. Robinson: Where... Hoffl"lan: Right on the ball field at Rice Mar sh Lake. That park. Lash: I don't know what can be done about this park but I have a pr obI el"l with this park. I feel really sorry for the neighbors that live down there during the sUIl~er when there's the kids, ga~es go on every night of the week and it's just, there's traffic in and out of there all night long and people are parking allover everywhere. Is there so~ething that we can do abont that situation other than waiting the}'~e another 5 years? Mady: Sure. Cancel the kids progra~s. Lash: Is there anything else we can do? Mady: If you don't have facilities. Those were the only facilities available when it started and those kids were willing, I don't know of any places that... ,.... Lash: But it's been going on for quite a few years. Schroers: What progra~s are going on down there? Lash: Ragball, T-ball. Hoff~an: Yeah, youth sports. Every ballfield that we have in the COIlII'luni ty is being used. Lash: So when you've got that overlap tiJtle for the first teaJtls are still there and then the second teal"lS are coItling, there's cars allover everywhere and I feel for the people that live there. I think geez if I went and bought a house on a cul-de-sac because there was a park in the backyard, I Illean tha t' s a really nice set up and then all of a sndden to have this, I feel kind of sorry for theItl. Hasek: We play soccer there. We played in a fall leagne soccer this year in Minnetonka. In the Minnetonka systeItl and we went to a park that I didn't know existed off of Scenic Heights Road in Minnetonka and there are 2 or 3 sItlall cul-de-sacs that abut up against the park. AIItlost everybody that is around the park other than that, their back yard abuts the park and there is parking allover the place. The neighbors are sitting in the back yard watching the activities. I think it's a Itlatter of how it occurs. If the events are there and they've been occurring and you're accusto~ed to it when you ~oved into that situation is one thing but if it's thrust upon you .,..... is qni te another. This park, I Illean you're tal king about 2 or 3 soccer gaJtles going on at the saJtle tiJtle out there and they've got a huge totlot out there. Like I said, there's parking across, there a}~e people who actnally Park and Rec COIlIIllission Meeting Nove~ber 14, 1989 - Page 4 try to park across these poor people's driveways over there. I think they've just gotten accustoIlled to it. It kind of exists over there. because...park doesn't ~ean the park belongs to you. -..""tJII Just Lash: I 'Ill not saying that. What I 'Ill saying is, if these people lived there before and, if it was me I would feel frustrated with it because it's such a nightIllare all SUlllIller and I feel if there's sOlllething we can do to correct it, I would certainly like to see that be done. If there's nothing we can do, there's nothing we can do but I guess I'd just like, if there's parking so people want to use it they can use it but there's ~ore cars down there than that parking lot can ever handle so therefore people are all over the cul-de-sac. I pulled in there and there's been little kids on Big Wheels and people want to feel like they live on a cul-de-sac, they want to feel their kids can go out and play on the cul-de-sac and there's just cars going in and out of there all the ti~e. Schroers: Has staff received complaints fro~ any of the neighbors down there? HoffI'lan: I've nevel.: recei ved any cOIllplaints. The only park we've recei ved co~plaints about useage and parking problems is Meadow Green. Hasek: . . . a probleI'1 and we perceive a probleI'l, whether the neighborhood COllIes in here or not, I certainly would like to take care of it because I think that's what this commission should be is proactive as opposed to reactive and we've gotten reactive over the course of the last year and a -' half, 2 years now and I don't think it's a good position to be in. If we can perceive proble~s any place in this city, I think we ought to do sOI'lething about it. Lash: Maybe all the original people have moved out and people who are living there now...they don't care. I don't know. Hoff~an: As you stated, once the additional parkland at Bandi~ere Park comes on 1 ine, as ball fields in cOIllI'luni ty parks, whether it be adul t cOI'lllllmity or youth cOlllIlllmity, we're using theIlI equally now, there's no real definition at this point. As those become available, we'll move those activities out of the neighborhood parks. Lash: I guess I would like to see that it be our goal is to try and ~ove it out of there. Hoff~an: It's a goal. Boyt: Do we have property that's adjacent to the lllarsh? It seenls like there was a dirt road that went back around a ways. Mady: They I'lade a developIllent back there. HoffI'lan: A pUIllp hOllse yes. That's park property. Boyt: Well I'laybe you could encourage parking down there rather than in the-..""tJII neighborhoods. Park and Rec COItIP'tission Meeting NoveItlber 14, 1989 - Page 5 .,....,. Mady: Basically yon're going right in people's back yards. Boyt: Yeah but it's not in their yards and it is parkland. Maybe we could take a look at it and see if there are possibilities down there and then maybe we could talk to Jeff Bros and he could get the information out to the families and the CAA kids. I didn't know who's property that was the first time I went down there. I didn't know if it was their back yard or parkland. If I shonld park there. If it's a possibility I think we should look into it. Robinson: How about in right field? You go way out there. Is there a road? Can you coItle in? Hoffman: This is to the left as you come in there's a road there. Mady: That goes to the sewer station. The sewer meter station for sewer and water. HoffItlan: Yeah. There's a 1 i ft hOl1se down there. Mady: We fixed the shelter. Bandimere. Lash: Did that... ,..., HoffP'lan: Offstreet parking? Lash: And the basketball court. Did that just kind of get... Boyt: Did we finish the title search? Oh, it went through? Hoffman: The new Bandimere. Mady: The cOItm\lmi ty park? It closed. It closed a Illonth ago. Hasek: I don't think so. I think they were doing title work. Hoffman: I believe the last thing Lori said there was no other problems on it. Schroers: When I heard they still weren't sure about that sewer line or William's Pipeline. Hofblan: Yeah. I think that probleIlI's been resolved. We're talking about Bandimere Heights Park here. The little one. Robinson: We can't do anything with Bandimere Heights. Boyt: Not until we know. ,...., Lash: Is that money, has it already been spent? Hoffman: The $2,000.00 for the basketball court? Park and Rec COl"Il"lission Meeting November 14, 1989 - Page 6 ....". Lash: And that $1,500.00 for off street parking? Hoffman: No. Nothing's been done there. Boyt: Did we do a master park plan? Mady: We need to do...get the whole thing tied together so we know how it works. Hoffman: Yeah, the master park plan showed a soccer field and a totlot over in that corner. Lash: So there's hardly anything that anybody wants to do there considering the pending but that's for 5 more years right? Boyt: Well then we can approach it later. HoffI'lan: That is one other park where we received parking cOl"lplaints dur ing soccer gal"les. But those were sOl"lewha t resolved. Mady: Bluff Creek. We don't have the access road, that's for sure. Hoffman: South of golf course. Doesn't have an address. Schroers: What we need to do is designate this as an equestrian area and -' let the people who have horses go in there and try to find it. Hoffl"lan: So 1989, the interpretive signage, access road, that got chopped in our budget. Mady: '91. We still have it for '91. Hasek: That's another one of those private public parks. Boyt: I think there's one guy that walked through it once. Hasek: I've been down there but only through private property by accident. Mady: We tJ~ied to find it once upon a time. Lash: So that's $1l,000.00's going into reserve? Hoffl"lan: Yeah. Moved forward. Mady: It's not l"lOney that was there. We stole that l"lOney. That becal"le part of the Illoney we needed when somebody asked for this so we took it out of there. Lash: So it's gone right? Mady: Yeah. -' Park and Rec COI'lIIdssion Meeting Nove~ber 14, 1989 - Pag~ 7 """ ,.. Boyt: So this is kind of ~ythical. Mady: It's not even here. Schroers: What we're thinking is if we ever find it, we're going to need to ~ake an access road. Lash: But if it's not there anynlore, we can't put it into reserve. Mady: No it's not reserve. Lash: The money's been spent. We can't put it in reserve so we just put it on into 1991? Mady: Yes. Hoff~an: That's a good park to think about that we are preserving the natural amenities down in that area so keep it in the back of your mind. It's there. Minnewashta Heights. Park ID sign last year. Nothing occuring this year. Nothing slated for 199~. It's a real s~all neighborhood park. It does have a totlot there. Operated sorlie playground up there this year and there's also the ice skating rink there. That is an ice ska ti ng rink tha t Dale had SOI'le concerns abont tha tit's a long dr i ve up there and it gets used very little. They come back after a couple days ,..... and it has not been ska ted on but I fel tit was real iPlportant to keep tha t ~ one to serve that area of town so it will stay there. Boyt: Is this where we had talked about a shelter at one time? Mady: Yes. Hasek: I think you're right. The only tiple we ever go there is when the ice is bad over at Cathcart because we alwavs know the ice will be good at this one but everybody goes to Cathcart beciuse that is the... Hoffman: The place to skate. It's got a war~ing house. Schroers: At one time we had $2~,~~~.~~ I think for... Boyt: An ice shelter, yes. Hasek: But it was perceived that... Boyt: Just like the tennis court at South Lotus Lake. Hasek: We asked for sOI'lethi ng up there but the neighbor s didn't want it. I mean that came through a request. Schroers: I think we were thinking about a dual purpose bus .,...... shel ter/warI1ting house type of thing. Robinson: Let's leave it then. Park and Rec Comrnission Meeting Novefllber 14, 1989 - Page 8 -' Lash: Is that over by... Hoffman: It's right off of TH 7 in Minnewashta Heights. Hasek: That's the problem. See there's the problefll. Nobody knows where this area of town is. Isn't that show you. Mady: It's Excelsior. Herfllan Field. Hofffllan: Obviously access road and totlot have not been done in 1988. Mady: We're just moving those into 1991. Lash: But is this the $35,000.00 that we had in reserve that was to be... Mady: HeJ::Itlan Field was $35,000.00 that's in reserve. Lash: Okay, and are we talking about getting going on that now next spring? Hoffman: This is another park that's somewhat in limbo. It needs accessibility and public input. The input frofll the neighbors, if you rePlelllber back to the last tiple we had those neighbors in to talk about the developlllent of HeJ::Itlan Field. Nothi ng concrete caPle about. Nothing was ever approved to go ahead. .....,I Lash: I thOllght we had decided on that. Mady: Well we know where it can go. We do not have, we have to purchase or get the easePlents to get to the park, actually into the park off an easenlent. It's not been put in yet. Boyt: What's holding us up? Because the neighbors don't want us to develop it? Mady: In YOllr adfllinstrative packet, wasn't there... Schroers: No, we approved going ahead with sonle things there. Boyt: Didn't we request staff to check on the access? Schroers: I don't recall that but I do recall that we okayed fllowing a turf trail to be used for cross country skiing and walking and also Plowing Ol1t a couple areas for picnic tables. Lash: And open field and a sPlall totlot. Mady: Those were di scussion on the Plaster park plan but we anything yet because we don't have access to the park yet. adminstrative packet for our next meeting, we'll be meeting Field residents again. have not funded Now in our with the Herma" ...." Park and Rec COMmission Meeting NoveIllber 14, 1989 - Page 9 ,..... Boyt: We need to tal k before the neighbor s cOPle in because we don't know what's going on with that. Lash: Well, and one of the things that we had requested, or that I rePlePlber requesting staff to do was to get back to us, how much of the things on that plan we could get for $35,000.00. If all you can do is get the road in there. Mady: That's why we're Illeeting with the residents is to find out what exactly they want. Lash: We already did that. Mady: Well it's an ongoing project. Lash: We had theIlI in he:t:e twice. We had the survey. We discuss it. Everybody seeIlled to be I think. Boyt: We callie np with a plan that it was going to be pretty natural. A lot of the sallie elePlents. Mark was here. Schroers: And there was a Plan A and a Plan B as to where the open area was going to be and we selected one of those. ~Lash: And there were boardwalks and a lot of different things. Mady: All I've saying is we do not have access into the park at this point in tiple. Boyt: But we're wondering where... Lash: Why go ahead and look at plans and do all of that stuff if we don't even have access to it? I mean that's kind of pntting the cart before the horse isn't it? Mady: Again, I believe it's been put to Council to get it done and it hasn't been done as far as I know. Hasek: We talked about parking too. We talked about access and parking and the fact that we weren't going to put a park together until we had access and parking into the park. Schroers: And were also people that were concerned about their private property and wanted a privacy fence installed along one side of it. Robinson: We've got to find out. Hofflllan: froPI Lor i ,.... . Mady: Yeah, I don't have the full story. on this. I hear bits and pieces Put it on the agenda for the next meeting. Hoffman: I'll ask her to bring back a full update. Park and Rec COIt\Ittission Meeting NoveIt\ber 14, 1989 - Page 10 Schroers: Well it should be in the packet. ......". HoffItlan: Yeah, staff report. Mady: So anyway, there's nothing been done. There's still $35,000.00 that's being rolled over. Schroers: There has been a feasibility study though. Mady: But that's done. This is really reserved for this park. Hoff~an: Correct. Boyt: Yeah, that ~oney couldn't go anywhere else. Mady: If YOIl have other concerns, give Lori a call. City Center Park. Boyt: We didn't do anything with the warming house this year did we? The $2,500.00? HoffI'lan: The $2,500.00, iI'lproveIt\ents for 1989 would occur here in the next couple of weeks so that mayor may not be used up. Boyt: We did the play surface and we did do totlot. We didn't do hockey iI'\proveI'lents. ...." HoffI'lan: Hockey iIt\proveI'\ents, I'I'\ not sure what the $1,000.00 was. Boyt: Fill in the holes. HoffI'\an: They did a lot of improvements on the grading. Mady: Yeah, but I think what they were talking about, when were talking about that, there was a concern of to access to the second rink you had to go through the first rink and ~oving the access point. Boyt: I think they did didn't they? By the fire station? Hoff~an: There's one over there as well but. Hasek: Will we do the bandshell next year? Is that putting the bandshell before the rest of the park? Boyt: Didn't we want a park plan here too for City Center Park? Lash: Is that in the budget for next year already? Mady: Yes. $2,000.00 for City Center. The master park plan is $25,000.00 fOl: park development... That's for 1990. HoffI'\an: Again, on this park, these projects have not been pursned -' because of the question of the cOI'~unity center and the cOI'~unity center, the new plan which is drawn does have a rough outline of what the park, the Park and Rec COllll'ldssion Meeting Novel'llber 14, 1989 - Page 11 ,... ball fields and the soccer fields, what that area would look like if that cOInl'lluni ty center did pass. Boyt: Who did that? Mady: Mike Niel'lleyer did it. In the early on Illeetings with the COl'lIl'llunity center, the residents we l'llet with to date, they're saying they want to see the City Center Park along Lake Ann. Robinson: We got the park property, the park plan in here for sometime but I don't think we can do anything with this until... Mady: We'll know this spring. We'll have a real good idea of what the City wants. The llIeeting's being held this month. Robinson: But right now. Boyt: No. We have to roll it over. Hofflllan: The hockey rinks are in need of new boards. That type of thing. This park, whatever is decided upon, will depend on that conmlunity center. Lash: ...the totlot money? ,... Boyt: The hockey money l'llight be used right yet? Hoffman: The warming house. Boyt: But the hockey, you don't know exactly what it's for? Hoffl'llan: Yeah. I don't know what that $1,131313.1313 was put in there for. Schroers: I seem to remember something about pop machines and things like that for in the warming house. Boyt: We talked about that last year. Schroers: Isn't that what that money was for though? I think that's what it was for. Hofflllan: It's a possibility. A private company did put the pop machine out there this year and found that it didn't generate enough money so they pulled it out of there as well. Lash: How about play surface. What was that? Mady: That's for the totlot. Hoffman: Chan Hills Park. That's the new one that $313,131313.1313 is slated ,... for next summer for general improvement. Boyt: Did we see a plan this year? Park and Rec Commission Meeting NoveI1lber 14, 1989 - Page 12 "". Mady: No. We had $10,000.00 in the budget for next year for Chan Hills. HoffI1lan: That's right. We slashed that at the last budget Itleeting. Boyt: Well, we could put something in 1991. Mady: Put $20,000.00 in 1991. HoffItlan: The park still is a Ii ttle ways out in the boondocks yet frOItl the houses so. Boyt: So it might be later. Hoffman: Yeah. Once they bring the street and bring the houses down there and developI11ent follows. That was the other question of should we pnt the ice skating rink in there when it's so far away from the houses at this point. Mady: Okay, so we don't even have a master park plan on that park? Before we get that, we can't budget. Boyt: But we could put $25,000.00 in for a tennis court. $15,000.00 in for a totlot. HoffI1lan: General iItlprOVeItlents, $20,000.00. ......" Mady: Why don't we just put $30,000.00 for general improvements. Another $30,000.00 for 1991. Lash: So you want $10,000.00 in 1990 and $30,000.00 in 1991? Mady: I've got $10,000.00 in 1990, $20,000.00 in 1991 and another $30,000.00 beyond that. That does serve a large area. Lash: Then are we rolling over the $2,000.00 for the park plan? Mady: FarItls. .. .going to have to COItle out $10,000.00 in this year's. They've got just about everything down there. Curry Lash: They've got seed and a little totlot. Robinson: We didn't approve that plan did we? Lash: Mark brought a plan to us. He was nice enough to...parking and the different ways of parking from that guy's house. Hasek: Yeah, he's got a master plan. Schroers: And then we had the residents come up and say they didn't want the trail. ..."" Hasek: And they didn't want the parking either. Park and Rec Con~ission Meeting Novenlber 14, 1989 - Page 13 ".... Lash: No, they didn't say. Boyt: They didn't want a regular trail and they didn't want the sidewalk... We should put some more money in there. Did Mark finish the plan? Lash: Oh, we need a ton~ I mean that was supposed to have a ballfield and a tennis court and a volleyball court... Robinson: That's like the timeline of Chan Hills. Mady: $30,000.00 for 1992 again. Lash: Can't we get anything in 1991? Boyt: Yeah. Mady: We won't have... Hasek: Put $10,000.00 in 1991. Lash: What are we going to do for Chan Hills? Mady: Put $30,000.00 into 1992. ~ Lash: But we put $20,000.00 for 1991. Mady: ...we have nothing. Hoffman: The same type of thing there. Mady: Curry Farms has got grading. totlot. They've got a graded park. high and no grading. Nothing. They've got a park. They've got a Chan Hills has nothing but grass that Hasek: Does Chan Hills have trails? Mady: I don't think there were trails developed in that thing. REVIEW 1989 SOFTBALL EVALUATION SURVEY. Hoffman: This was the first year that the softball survey was put together. That was also one of my goals to further use evaluation forms for all our recreational programs to receive feedback so we can get some ideas and improve not only our support programs but anything else that we do throughout our departnlent. So I pulled a couple di fferent conlllluni tes and got samples of their survey. Came up with this survey. If you've gone through it and you can see the response rate vary qnite a bit fronl league to league and not surpr ising that the 35 and over canle in wi th the greatest ~response becanse they do have the greatest response throughout the season or input, however you want to put that. Why don't Me turn to page, the copy of the survey itself and just run down 1 thru 8 there. The questions Park and Rec COJtlmission Meeting NoveIllber 14, 1989 - Page 14 ....."" that were asked and see how we did and we'll talk a little bit. Get sOJtle cOIlllllission input on how we can iIllprove SOITle of these areas. Overall rating of the program ranks consistently high there. 8 and 10 and fair. Playing nights/gaITle tiITles. Aga in, we got a 1 i ttle bi t var ied response there. The gaJtle tiIlles was what caJtle in wi th the fair and the poor being the starting 6:00 game time instead of 6:15 p.m.. Hasek: Just a COITlItlent on that one. I've got a real hard tiIlle moving that one back. The reason is that none of those games start on tiIlle. There's al ways sOIllebody tha t' s late and somebody' s cOPlplaining about it and I heard the coIl\Jtlent a couple of times last year, we pay our money too. We want to play the full time even though the uIllpire was late. They want to play their full amount of time and then it pushes everything back and that extra 15 minutes in there for the beginning and end of the year makes all the diffe~ence in the world. I mean you're talking guys that are starting to lose their eyesight. Schroer s : Where it says league, it says Mens C, WOIllens, Do-Rec Band there's a number behind them. What does that indicate? Hoffman: That indicates how many of those managers responded for each one of those leagues. That's exactly why the game time was put at 6:00 p.m. and not 6:15 is because of the shortness of the day. Mady: It does make it tough for some people to get there but because of the light situation in this part of the countr.y, there's nothing we can do-' unless you want to play in the dark for the second gaIlle. Hoffman: Yeah, we don't have enough lights. Weather, Plake-up procedures seePI to be fine. It's a little bit lower on the scale. Anything's a COIlIIlIi tIllent. Officiating, we get a wide. Mady: It's acceptable. HoffIllan: It's sOPlething we work wi th. I work wi th an officiating, tr i-country offic ia ting umpir i ng serv ice and they seeIlI, it works real well for us so there's not a lot of input we can do on upgrading the uIllpires. UIllpires are uIllpires and they get along with the players about that well. Larry, have you got any cOInIllents on that one? Schroers: I really don't. I just think that I'laybe we expect a little bit too Illuch out of them. I Illean we're not professionals and we don't really have the right to expect them to be quality so I think we can live with the umpires. Hasek: The thing that I have to chuckle about ,in that Mens Over 35 slow pitch is when sOIllebody starts cOl'lplaining about balls and strikes. There are leagues in the city that play with 2 pitches. You get 2 pitches. You better hit one of them. It's just absolutely ridiculous. I mean there's going to be 3 pitches thrown, vou've got a chance to hit one of theIlI. I don't care how bad it is, you'd better be swinging. I don't think you ca"""", fault the UIllpire for that. Everybody's got their own strike zone. I don't care, it var ies from one .'to another. But when it comes down to the basic Park and Rec ConlI\lission Meeting Novenlber 14, 1989 - Page 15 ".... rules about what's in play and what's out of play and sonle of those things, those are things that all of the uI\lpires should have down pat by now. If they get in the league, the basics ought to be there. That's what I 'nl concerned about. Hoffnlan: We had a couple of first year ul'1pires this year. That type of thing. Nunlber 5, recei vi ng league inforl'1a tion scored high and we had sonle fair responses in there and that basically upon more information from them. They would like to see more, they would like to see almost a league newsletter throughout the year like the NFL newsletter to update them on how teaI\IS are doing and who's doing what in the league. There's a possibility in the 1991 budget that a 6 nlonth seasonal will be put on staff to work with the SUI\~er programs and that l'1ay be additional duty. Mady: Is it something that could be put in the paper? I mean the Carver County Herald publishes the Chaska's standings. Why don't they publish our standings? Boyt: Do you turn them in? Hoffnlan: We turn therll into the Vi llager per iod ically and they publ ish thenl here in the Villager. Boyt: Have they ever organized their own league? .,.... Hoff(Tlan: Who? Boyt: The adults? Mady: The Over 35 was a self organized league up until a few years ago. Hoff(Tlan: At least 4 years ago. Robinson: If they want standings, I don't know why they couldn't put out a little newsletter thenlself. I don't think it's... Mady: No. I don't think it's something the City can't afford to do. That's sonlething the paper can publish. Hoffman: Okay. Play-off structure and placement. No problems there. Facilities are rated excellent, good, fair. Fees, everybody put good. Our fees are not too high but they will continue to go up until they meet. Mady: The surrounding four. Hoffnlan: What else can we get out of thi s? Add i tional COITlI\lents. If you just would like to read through that for you~ own interest. The last page is one we can take a look at. Why do you participate in this progranl? I feel it's a fairly important question on trying to understand what we're serving these people for. What they're getting out of it. Meet with ~friends and socializing. Competition had a fairly equal split and you'll find that varies a little bit froI\1 league to league. Mens Open league seenls to be more cOI\lpeti tion. Mens 35 and Over, WOI\lens league, Industr ial Park and Rec COI'\Illission Meeting Novel'lber 14, 1989 - Page 16 league tend to be a little bit more social however the industrial league does COl'le into the cOIllpeti tion part as well. ...."", Hasek: Todd, did I talk to you on the phone or did I talk to Lori? Hoffman: About what? Hasek: ...over the telephone. I had filled this out and it was in, I think I was going to turn it in last week but I forgot this week but I think the only, like I said, the only comIllent I had was on the officiating and I did make mention of parking. Hoffl'lan: Okay. Mady: I thought it was funny, COl'1l11ent number 7 was tal king about the fields being in poor condition... REVIEW LAKE ANN PARK GATE FEES. Hoffl'lan: Thi siteI'I was presented at the last meeting which I was not present. Upon the conclusion of discussion that evening the COI'\Illission directed staff to investigate park facility fees in other cOMl'lunities. I did a telephone sllrvey of 12 other rnetropol i tan cOIlll'luni tes which resul ted in the following chart that is listed there. It just goes throngh and lists what the findings are as they appear down at the bottom of the sheet--' So this is yonrs to discuss once again this evening. Boyt: SOl'lething, I didn't read all your discussion but sOl'lething we might want to do is ask for SOl'le direction froIlI the Council on whether or not they want the park to be self sufficient or if they want it to be open. Hasek: Well it's not self sufficient anyway but certainly I'lore self sufficient with a fee there to help carry things. Boyt: That seems to be one...issues. Robinson: I think they would be looking for SOllIe discussion frol'l llS. Hasek: charge? Didn't we have a consensus last week that we felt like we wanted to Did I hear that correctly? Schroers: I think that the consensus was the last tiIlle we discussed this was to continue as they were in 1989 into 1990. I don't think that we decided that we were going to change. Hasek: But there was a lot of discussion on how that was going to get accol'lplished. Whether the stickers were going to be included and passed out with the fees and if everybody was going to get a sticker and then there would be no sales or lil'lited sales at the gate as opposed to the pass. I II'lean I think we talked about if there's going to be a fee, we .....,I. I'light as well try to do something with it as opposed to having it out there just for the sake of having it. Park and Rec Conllldssion Meeting November 14, 1989 - Page 17 IfI"""" Hofflllan: A few comlllents. Just to answer, I don't know Curt if you have questions about why we rehash this each year. It is written in our City Code that each year this Lake Ann Park fee will be looked at. Reviewed for changes or alllendlllents. Robinson: Can we COllie up wi th SOllie different items? Thi s kind of influenced nlY decision. Do you charge general entrance or parking fee at any cOlllllluni ty park and none of thelll do. We're the only one. Lash: But then it says if YOll have a public beach, then it's half and half so ours says beach so. Mad y : They charge for the beach. They don't charge... Hoffman: They charge for the beach only. Lash: I've talked about this with a couple of people just to get feedback because I didn't know and that was one of the suggestions I heard was to Illove the gatehouse down to the last parking lot before the beach and people would have to pay to either launch their boat or use the beach. Hofflllan: General COlllJllents on last year when this was rev iewed by the COllncil at that nleeting. They did not nlake a specific recon\lllendation on I""""" whether we should charge the participants of ci ty sponsored prograllls, being the playground program, the swill~ing program, softball program, but they sa id we've had a lot of problellls wi th these people. Let's resolve it. I' III not sure how we want to do that but go ahead and resolve it. Hasek: And gave it back to us? Hoffman: Yeah. Basically the decision there was made that those people would not be charged. Schroer s: I relllelllber what some of the problenl was now. We thought that it would make most sense to charge the parking fee for each participant in the organized recreational programs, be it softball, swill~ing lessons or whatever, when they sign up and register with the City. At that point just include the fee for the sticker and then give the sticker to the tealll ma~ager or whoever and make it their responsibility to give the stickers out. The problem was that Lori said that a lot of the people, like the swil1'\llling lessons and that sort of thing, sign up for it in Shorewood or Minnetonka or wherever. Okay, I think the solution to that is if they're going to sign up for an activity that's taking place in Chanhassen, then they should come to Chanhassen, sign up for it here and then be charged the fee for the sticker along with whatever charges there are for the activity and have it handled that way. Hoffman: We can't do that Larry. There's no reason to take on that .,...., addi tional burden of accepting registrations here for other organization's prograllls. If we did that, it would cause some real organizational probleJ'lls. Park and Rec COJtlmission Meeting November 14, 1989 - Page 18 Robinson: The Little League you know may play Minnetonka East out here. Well, what do you do when the parents from Minnetonka East want to come? ..."", Hasek: You give the stickers to the manager of the team to pass out to the parents of the kids and voila. They have their sticker to come here. Boyt: They're only going to be here 2 nights out of the year. They're a visi ting tea"l. Hasek: Okay, then that's taken into consideration when we charge the fees. See the cost, we talked about that a little bit too. Maybe if it's a tea"1 event rather than charging $5.00 or $3.00 for the ticket and uping it for the full 20 man roster another $60.00, maybe we up it $40.00 and give everybody a ticket. Well we can do the saflle thing for the out of town ones. The point is that you have a sticker when you COflle in the gate. Mady: Why not up the fee and not have any stickers? Hasek: Because then the only people that are paying for it are the people that are participating in events and there are a lot of people that come to that park on weekends for open swimming...coJt~lunities. The whole point was that we felt that the people who used the park, all of the people that used the park should be carrying the burden. Mady: Then why don't we, if you want to do it that way, the people who ar using, when I read through this thing no one charges fees for the park -' outside of the swittmling area. So this...what we do is we charge the people who are, the swi~ling prograflls. They get it added to their fee $2.00 or sonlething for the whole SU"~ler. Then during the tinle that swimntlng lessons are taking place, we don't pick up gate fees. But when the swin~ling lessons are done at 12:00, whatever time of the day it stops, the gate attendant conIes on and that's it. Everybody eithe~ has to have a sticker or... Hasek: What this doesn't show file, and fllaybe it's here and I just didn't read it, but it doesn't tell us whether the cost of that park is being born by the general fund in these various cities. HoffJtlan: Yes. Hasek: If it is, then the taxes go up and you're paying for it anyway so it's a I1:100t point. We ei ther, in I1:IY I1:tlnd we ei ther charge for the events and we charge everybody a sticker to get in or we give it to the City Council and let thenl carry the burden of maintaining that park coItlpletely and take it off of our hands. HoffIllan: ReIlleIllber at the last report that was brought in we generated a total of $5,000.00 net revenue which does not. Mady: That won't cut the grass on one field. HoffJtlan: So we are not supporting the park throngh this fee. -' Park and Rec COI'lI'lission Meeting Nove~ber 14, 1989 - Page 19 ,...... Hasek: Could we support the park through the fee though? That's the qnestion. How I'lany people participated out there last year that, what could have the potential revenue could have been that would have been generated had we collected froITI everybody. Hoff~an: It could have been much greater but just a little background on how I've worked with this since I first arrived. When I arrived, half the people were being charged that participated. The softball players were being charged. The swiIl'~ling people were not being charged. City ordinance plainly stated any car entering that park during this time period paid that fee. I attelllpted that first year to enforce that. We got much negative feedback. I was called out to that park nUlllerous tiIl'les throughout the SUll~ler by the ga te guards. The pol ice were called nUlllerous tiITles for irrate people because this was never done this way. This has never happened. That evolved over the past 2 years. Last year Council got involved with it at that level. We're making people upset. We're making neighbor i ng COI'IIlIUni ties upset becanse they COITle down here and they have to pay to get into a park to have their children, their grandparents, they have to pay to come watch a kid. Council said last year, that's not worth it. Let's go ahead and resolve that problelll however you need to do that and then last year we decided not to charge those participants. That does reflect as I stated in ~y previous report, a loss of anywhere from $5,000.00 to $8,000.00 in gross revenues. ~Hasek: But see Todd, I think it's substantially II'lore than that. What you're looking at is a nUII'lber of people that have histor ically paid. What I 'Ill trying to find out is what, if 25% of the people who use the park are paying for stickers and the rest of thelll are just cOlllplaining about it, what happens if we get 100% of the people that use the park. That's unrealistic. 90% of the people that use the park and pay for it, couldn't that revenue help us put equipI'lent and stuff into other parks in this city? I mean if we're losing $8,000.00 by only collecting 25% of the people that IIse the park, aren't we in effect losing $30,000.00 or $40,000.00 that we could be collecting and that $30,000.00 or $40,000.00 could go into the budget in other places. Hoffman: No. If you read through the report there from October 16th, we decreased the dai ly pass froITI $3.00 to $2.00. Hasek: What we're looking at is paying for the sticker when you're going in the gate. What I'm considering doing is charging everybody for the sticker through all of the events and only charging those people that go through the gate on particular occasions. Perhaps it's when there are no events going on in the weekend and the gate is open and then everybody that goes into the park pays for a sticker. Otherwise everybody that participates in an event out there has already got a sticker. They've got the sticker to go in the gate. They've already paid their fee. Then the hassle's only going to be from those people who are using it for that one event and that's a daily pass or whatever that is and that can be, we can r-leave the structure the saIl'le way that it is if we want to. And lllaybe we reduce it. Maybe we reduce the cost. The point is that I don't think it's the fee that bothers people. I think it's the fact that they have to pay for it when they go in the gate that bothers theIl'I. They have to buy the Park and Rec Cop~ission Meeting NoveIllber 14, 1989 - Page 20 ....., sticker. If you give them the sticker, even though they're paying for it, I don't think they'll mind so much. And it's really no different than taxing theIlI, like these comrllunities do in the general fund. I Illean if the tax structure for this came down and said that you're paying an extra $2.00 to use the parks in the city, they're not going to care. Boyt: Most people say, I think when the survey was done you asked theIlI, do you want these facilities in our community and are you willing to pay for them? They say yeah, I'll pay an extra $5.00. Well here we're asking them to pay $5.00. Hasek: Yeah, and it's just the structure that the Council is asking us to resolve to eliminate the charge for. I think what they're asking us to do is resolve how it's handled and that's really what I'm looking at. It's not the fact that they're paying. I firmly believe that they should pay. the question is, how do we handle that. Hoffman: I do not think that building it into the fee is going to resolve it. We'll have to start dealing with Minnetonka Copmlunity Services on their swiIllJTting beach lessons and say. Hasek: Can we send theIlI a fornl froPI thi s ci ty that has attached to ita parking sticker? If they want to participate in our, this is the fornl you use and along with that form comes a parking sticker. HoffI'lan: Again, it COPles down to the negativisIlI that they're going to 100R""" at. They're going to say, these other 7 beaches that Minnetonka COmIllunity Services offers swimnling lessons at, they don't charge us to get into the park. Lake Ann does. We'll go up here. We live in the northern tier. We're close to this beach as well. Schroers: You've got to pay to get to Excelsior beach. Hasek: 25 cents for 15 minutes or half an hour. Mady: We should install parking meters. Hasek: Or you have to have a city parking sticker. I mean those are your two options when you're in the city of Excelsior. If you want to park in the street, you either pay the Illeter or you have a parking sticker for that park and for blocks around there. Lash: Maybe what we could do is, I think what tends to be the confusing point here is not the people who live in Chanhassen getting a perIllit. They're registering here. We could up their fee. Give thert} a permit. That's not a problem. Lori said that is not a problem. The problem COIlles in wi th non-residents and those are the people who's kids would Illaybe only be over here once or twice playing. Hasek: Or swin~ing lessons. ...", Lash: Yeah, or swinlJTling lessons. Maybe what we need to do is say kids and activities under the age of 18 or sOPlething, then you don't have to pay an Park and Rec Contnlission Meeting Novelllber 14, 1989 - Page 21 ,.... additional fee to get in but anybody over the age of 18, when they're registering for sOITlething in Chanhassen, you have to pay extra to get. Boyt: Then the gate attendant has to deal with every adult that comes in and says, look I have a kid in my car. Mady: Well it's a parking fee. You can't charge. This is a park that was built with LAWCON grant money. We cannot charge the people to use the park. We can charge for parking. That's it. It's a parking fee. Lash: But for people who are just bringing their kids in for an event, maybe what we can do is say we're going to waive their parking fee. Mady: Well we already do now. Lash: Okay, so but the problem that we're having now is we're waiving it for all the adults too. Mady: The problem we're having is we're not consistent in how we charge parking fees. We're trying to get a consistency here. We don't want people saying fine, you're part of Minnetonka so we're not going to charge you and all the people from Chanhassen who want to use it just for a Sunday swim twice a year have to pay $5.00 to get down there and the guy frolll Minnetonka who's bring ing his kid here every day for 2 weeks gets in ~ the park for free. It j Ilst doesn't Illake sense to ITle. We're inconsi stent. Boyt: ...to buy a sticker so we can go out and work on the 4th of July. That's the only time I'm out there is to work out there on the activities but I have a sticker to do that. Hasek: Do you ITlind? Boyt: about? No I don't. It's five bucks. What are these people cOITlplaining Five bucks or two bucks. I think it's too big a deal. Hasek: The problem isn't, I mean we perceive that. The problem isn't here. It's at the gate. That's where the problem is. That's where the cOITlplaining all starts. Schroers: It's at the gate and it's also the adlllinstrative problems that it creates for staff and I wonder if staff has a point of view that you would care to... Hasek: I think they're real clear about their point of view. I think the staff would like to eliminate it and I can understand why. Boyt: We can go back to everyone needs a sticker to get into the park or pay the daily fee and that's it and then it's up to the people to figure out how they're going to get that done. They either go up to City Hall. If ~ they're frolll out of our cOITtnluni ty, then they deal wi th it in a di fferent way. The softball players are adults. They can deal with it. They can either buy a sticker and pay their daily fee. They don't have to argue every time they go in. Park and Rec COlnmission Meeting Nove~ber 14, 1989 - Page 22 Hasek: But they do. ......, Boyt: Well then II'laybe we need older park attendants or something or I don't know. We need sOIl'lething else but it's $5.00. What's the big deal? Mady: It's just what you said there. It's $5.00. What's the big deal? Let's pay it. My point is, $5.00. What's the big deal? Let's throw it out. Boyt: Because our general fund is real low. Because there's not enough money. We go over our budget every year. Cut, cut, cut, cut in parks and I'd like to see some funds cOIl'ling in for us so we can do Illore in our parks. Lash: I think in 50 years or sOIllething when the Ci ty is fat and heal thy and has everything we want, then we can talk about letting people in for... Hasek: And at that point, the 50 years when the City is fat and happy, it will be part of your tax structure and we won't need to charge. I mean you'll be paying $10.00 in your tax dollars every single year for the parks in the City and it will be all nice and happy but right now it's not. Mady: It's not park money. It goes to general revenues. I think we're fooling ourselves here. It goes to the general fund. It gets used to patch the streets over in Minnewashta. It gets used to fix the fire hydrant in front of your house. It doesn't go to the park though. .."", Lash: Personally I think if we're charging a fee for that facility, I think the money should be then circled around to be used in that facility. Maintain it and... Mady: The other side of that coin is we're getting all, the general fund is paying a substantial amount of money to maintain that park. A heck of a lot more than $5,000.00 so I mean it's an accounting nightmare. To say okay I'~ going to make sure that $5,000.00 goes there because we're fooling outse1ves. We're taking out prime, spending over $50,000.00 to maintain that. Hoff~an: The general fund pays for the lifeguards, the gate attendants, all of that stuff. Schroers: But it's just additional revenue going into the fund, then I think it's reasonable to anticipate with the new facilities, the extra fields and the inlproveIllents that we have made and intend to make out there that there is going to be increased use and it will at some point in tiIlle amount to a lot more money than $5,000.00. Mady: I guess the question we have in front of us is, how do we do this adminstrative1y? How do we charge it and how do we do it adIllinstrative1y and I have yet to hear an answer that's going to work. You're still going to have the problems at the gate. No matter what you do, you're going to have prob1eIlls at the gate. ...." Park and Rec COI'IIIlission Meeting NoveI'lber 14, 1989 - Page 23 ,.... Robinson: We Illade $5,000.00 last year and we didn't have any probleI'ls because if anybody wants to go in or hassle you, just go ahead and go. What's wrong with that? Mady: I guess it just I1leans tha t the people who are really, you're not being fair and honest to people. The guy who yells and screaNS and bitches gets his way all the tiIlle and I think it's about time that no I1latter who you are, it's consistent throughout for everything. Maybe 1'1'1 wrong and too idealistic but by golly, if you're going to have a plan, it's got to be consistent. It's got to be legally enforceable for everybody. You can't just say, well we're going to do it this way but if you complain at the gate or if you live in Excelsior or this or that, ah heck, then what you're doing is just charging the nice people in Chanhassen for everything and the guy who you're trying to get I'loney froI'1 is never going to pay. Hoffman: That's exactly what I did 2 years ago. It spelled it out plain and simple in the City Code and I atteNpted to do that and it did not work. Schroers: What happened? HoffI'lan: The cOI'lplaints rolled in. Boyt: Who was cOI'lplaining? ""Hoffman: First I'd like to invite, if you'd like to, to stop out at the gate and work a couple hours. Almost every person that goes through there has SOI'le COI'II'lent about tha t fee. Every per son that has to buy a sticker, definitely has a con~lent about the fee and it's not a pleasant job. It's not a pleasant place to be. People are aware of this... Hasek: The sil'lple fact is, it costs an arl'l and a leg to live in this city. It's not going to change for a long time until they get things straighten out. Boyt: I don't think there's signage in front of the gate telling what the fees are? Mady: Sure there is. A big sign right there. Boyt: No, it's beyond the gate. Hoffman: No, there's a menu board that says Welcome to Lake Ann. Daily pass. Boyt: No, it's not at the gate. It's beyond the gate. Hoffman: It hangs on the outside of the gate underneath the window. Boyt: It's the park rules that are 20 feet beyond that. Well, Illaybe it I""'" needs to be bigger. Just what the park fees are. Mady: WelCOIlle to Lake Ann. $5.00 for you to get in. Park and Rec Con~ission Meeting Novenlber 14, 1989 - Page 24 -' Hasek: I'll tell you, what we need to do is we need to hire sonlebody out there and si~ply tell them, you get to keep 50% of all the gate fees you collect. Boyt: We had sonleone 1 i ke tha t but tha t wasn't our idea. he did. That's just what Schroers: If that's where our problems are at is at the where we need to deal wi th thenl and we just have to conle reasonable response to most of the questions that people contnlon questions that they have in regard to the fee and going to have to bite the bullet. gate, then that's up with a logical, are the nlost people are just Hoffnlan: That's where the problenl occurs. It's not created there. It's created here and the decision that is made each year on how to charge that fee. Then we change it through the year and the public area, they get used to it one way and the next year you change it again. If we go back and change it again this year. Schroers: Okay, what kind of problems did you have this past season? This 1989. Did it work pretty well? Hoff~an: It worked considerably better than past years because the softball players were happy they didn't have to pay to get in. The people who took swintnting lessons or SUI'U1'ler playground didn't get hassled. The visiting teanls that canle to play, Little League parents did not get ...." hassled. They didn't have to pay to get in to watch their kids. So it went considerably better. Mady: Who paid? Boyt: Yeah, I guess we're saying it's not fair thOtlgh because I paid and Jim Mady paid so we cOtlld go wor~ out there but people who don't want to pay don't pay. I think what I'm saying is I'm not comfortable even though it went real well. Lash: And I don't think it's the softball players that don't want to pay. They just didn't get charged this year. I think they'd happily pay. Hasek: Not happily. Boyt: They're the ones that didn't want a sticker because they don't put it in one car. They want it separate so they can switch it to 2 cars. Lash: But if the gate attendant knows that these adults conting in with a uniform on did pay in their registration, even if they forgot their permit, they would know that the guy already paid. Hasek: See, I don't think that's a problem. '. Lash: So you know, jack up their l:egistl:ation $5.00. Give thenl a permit.-, If they forget it, they go down in their uniform, they should get in anyway. They've already paid. Park and Rec COl"~lission Meeting Novel"lber 14, 1989 - Page 25 ,... Boyt: We can do that with the softball players and the people that are cOl"ting from out of town. The swil"~lers can have a change to purchase what they need before they start swil"ll"ting lessons. Hasek: The registration fee for tournaments. I mean, when that thing goes out, did they have to turn in a roster. You give thel"l one sticker for each guy on the roster and maybe it's only a dollar a sticker for the tournament for a weekend tournaPlent or something. I Itlean it seeItIS to I'le like it could be done wi thout a whole lot of problel'ls. Hoffman: State tournaments we cannot charge a daily entrance fee for. Hasek: A parking fee? Hoffl"lan: No. Not for us to host a Sta te MRPA Reg ional Tournal'lent. It's right in their contract. Hasek: Okay, is there a set fee on what we charge for that tournaItlent? Hoff Plan : For what we charge? Hasek: The participating teams. ,...... Hoffl"lan: It's we're hosti ng that Sta te as a benefi t to the business cOIt~luni ty. Hasek: Oh, that's right. I was tal king about an invi ta tional tournaPlent I guess is what I was looking for. HoffItlan: Yeah, we tal ked about softball players. It would work out fine there. Playground program, it's a $5.00 program. If you want to participate at Lake Ann you pay $10.00. People just won't participate there in 1"IY opinion. They'll COl"Ie to another park so no need to have playground in Lake Ann. Hasek: Wai t a l"tinute. What if you 1"Iake it instead of $5.00 you Plake it $8.00? I'm not saying we have to charge, I'm not saying there's a set fee for anybody going in there other than those people that have to purchase a ticket at the gate. Hoffl"lan: I guess we can't be arbitrary. We need to have some. Hasek: Sure you can. Why can't you? Hoffl"lan: Well we were this year and. Boyt: This is a different kind of arbitrary. ~Hasek: The point is that everybody is paying and I can see where you're charging a guy $400.00 for a league long event in the sUml"lertime and you're upping that to cover the cost of sOItlething by $3.00 a ticket or $5.00, whatever a seasonal is, and I don't think that 1"Iaybe $5.00 is necessarily Park and Rec COlnInission Meeting NoveIllber 14, 1989 - Page 26 it. Maybe it is only $3.00 but again, I think that's adjustable based upon-' maybe the tiIl\e that the event spends out there or something. I think that that can be worked out and I think there's sOIl\ething fair and equitable there. We don't have to have a set fee. The point is that everybody pays approximately an equal portion for using that park out there. Does that make any sense? Mady: I think one thing we have to find out, frOll\ the LAWCON situation out there we found out a few years back that we couldn't charge the...we had between resident and non-resident. Legally we couldn't do it. We can't charge for use of the park but can charge a parking fee. I think what we need to find out, some research has to go into the LAWCON, is can you discriminate the way we are by not charging SOIne people and charging others. I've got the feeling that this is a federal law we're dealing with, they've handled the discrilllination situation already in there and what we're doing by saying yes to SOllIe and no to others, we're in violation of LAWCON already. I've got a real...the City Code the way we are, we're in trouble. I think we've got to have our Code right. What we do at the gate lllight be sOlllething totally separate and I have a problel'l with that anyway but we've got to be at least legal on paper. Boyt: I have another fly in the ointITlent. Ear 1 ier this year I thought l'laybe we could have some sort of reciprosity with Chaska or other neighboring cOIT~lunities where we offer their residents resident status for our parks and they do the same for us. Just as a neighborly thing to do. They do share SOllIe, we share wi th the Mens softball. Aren't you going to ....."I be sharing some fields eventually? HoffI'\an: No. Hasek: Not yet. Boyt: In a few years they have SOl'le fields cOl'ling on line in neighboring cO~lllni ties. We share in Chaska... Hoffman: They don't charge for theirs. Schroers: Ours will be on line before theirs will be. Hoffman: We don't use theirs. They don't use ours. Boyt: No, they come here to play. The mens. The men COl'le here to join om: teall\s. At one point we had talked about... Hasek: Then we'd have to get Minneapolis and Hudson, Wisconsin and Apple Valley. Boyt: Well I was just thinking of Chaska. Mady: And Shoreview. ....,,;' Schroers: Chaska and Shoreview but the reality of that was that our new fields were going to COITle on line before. Therefore that wouldn't help our Park and Rec conmtission Meeting Novenlber 14, 1989 - Page 27 ,.... situation at the time. Boyt: Well nlY thinking was with Chaska because some of our people that live in Chanhassen really live real close to Chaska would like to use their facilities and vice versa. Hoffman: The only place they charge in Chaska is the clay hole and it's $.50 a day or $13.00 for an annual fanlily permi t. Sonlething of that nature. Schroers: And is that to residents and non-residents alike? Hoffman: They have a separate resident/non-resident fee. Lash: So let me back us up just a minute now. It'd be great if we could make a decision tonight so we wouldn't have to do this again another night wouldn't it? Were you saying where your adntinstrati ve nightIllare comes in is wi th swiIllIldng? Is wi th YOllth acti vi ties when they come over here for 2 nights and possibly the playground program. You have to charge more for the playground program. Not crea te a probleIlI. HoffIllan: It's not just adIltinstrative. I can certainly do that. We can go to Minnetonka COIllI\'luni ty Serv ices and say our COIllI\'ti ssion and Counc il feel that we need to charge to use the park. " Lash: But you're saying it would create some. HoffIllan: It would create some probleIlls but Illainly what I 'Ill concerned about is what, the image that we're putting out there to the people that are using that park. Lash: Maybe the image is that if you are enrolling your child in a prograIlI in this park, we want to encourage people to enroll children into the park, into those kinds of things, therefore the parking fee is being waived for that particular program. However, if you're an adult, it's not that we're not trying to encourage people to do that but I think the adults don't have a probleIlI wi th paying as Illuch as parents have a probleIlI wi th paying after they've registered their kid for something, then having to COllie and pay again to get in to watch their kid do that. So if we just set it up so if it's a youth think where they're registered outside the city, if it's a youth thing and they're registered here like the Babe Ruth and those new things for the older kids that are getting started and they'll be using Lake Ann Park a couple times a week, then their fee would be bUIllped up because they'll be using it a lot. Hoffman: But when we work Lake Ann, or the schedule for the South Tonka Little League, each one of those 12 teams that are in that league will at sometiIlle be possibly be scheduled to play down here meaning we would have to make hundreds of passes available at registration and everybody who ~registers for South Tonka Little League would need to get a pass and do we charge theIlI for that? We can't charge people living... Lash: No, I 'Ill saying the people who are registering in Minnetonka or South Park and Rec Conmlission Meeting NoveI'Iber 14, 1989 - Page 28 Tonka or whatever it is, wouldn't be having to get a pernlit. If they're only going to be coming over here a couple of times to play...and be done with it. But the people who are out here every week using it, if they're registering in Chanhassen. They're here weekly or twice a week playing, then bump their fee up and give them a permit with their registration. Audience: How would the gate attendant make a determination? ...""I Hasek: During an event. If the event is on and your kid shows up with a unifornl. Hoffrllan: There's nights when there's Babe Ruth going on which you say it should be paid. There's nights when both that and Little League are going on so it does become very confusing at the gate when you try to explain to those gate attendants that this is what we're doing. Lash: Well one way or another, if a kid comes in in a uniform, either the fee has been waived for hinl, or the fee was paid at registration. Mady: What's the situation...happens all the time. The child plays a gaI'le at 6:00 and the parent has to work until 6:00 so the child shows up with his buddy. The parent, as a good parent, wants to see his child play in the sport so he comes to the ganle. Now we're charging him a daily fee to get in to watch his son play. Hasek: No, I don't think so. The event is on. The event is on. There ....." are no charges for anything. Boyt: Then we'll just maintain what we have now. Hasek: How many people are going to be going into the park, well I guess that's true. There may be a few. Robinson: When we get the Bandinlere property and get that developed, will we also charge a park fee to get in there? Boyt: It doesn't have a beach. That's a big expense. Mady: This is the thing we're talking about is the beach and the probleI'Is we're trying, we don't charge anybody use of the beach yet the problem comes from the kids using the softball field and we're seeing here the people who have general parks, none of them charge fees to park. It's the ones with beaches that charge. Robinson: It goes back to what Jan said a half an hour ago. Maybe we should nlove the gate down to the beach. Hasek: We talked about that since the first year I was here. Robinson: We went through a lot to get back to your first statenlent. HoffI'lan: And again, 50% of the conmluni ties fully pay for that and build i €""' into their taxes and 50% don't so if we want to try to get sonle back of Park and Rec COI\lIlIission Meeting NoveIllber 14, 1989 - Page 29 ,..... that $16,000.00 we payout in lifeguard fees, Illaybe we can put it down at the beach. Boyt: Maybe we can fence at the beach. Mady: I think what this is is one of those situations where it'd really be helpful if we had a joint Council/CoIl~lission meeting to discuss it. Boyt: I think we ought to table this. We don't have to decide until January. Hasek: I'll tell you what. I wish that the Council would read through the Minutes on this to just see how confusing it really is. It's not a simple matter of one way or the other. Maybe they'll understand. Boyt: That's why when we spend 4 nights with this and then send it to Conncil and they say, oh, I don't think there should be any fee at all. I'd rather have a little bit of that input now. Whether they want a fee or don't want a fee at all. It might come down to that. If they don't want a fee at all. Mady: Why don't we direct staff to reqnest that the Council Illeet with ns before one of our meetings for half an hour or maybe we meet with th~1 for half an hour before one of their meetings. ,..... Hasek: Or send us a representative. Mady: Everybody has their own opinion and if they... Hasek: But they don't have to all be sitting here to hear our opinion. I mean if they send soolebody at least so we can have a sounding board, they could take the information back then and give us direction. Boyt: They could write back to us. They could. It's hard for people to show up for meetings. They could write back to us and it could be in our packet and this could from Bill and this could be from Don and this could be from Ursula and we'd have... Hasek: It's not an easy probleIlI. We've talked about it for what? Mady: Every year. Hasek: Illinutes here and we're right back exactly where we started. HoffIllan: One other point I think of, I've sat out there a number of tiIlles with new gate and guards and that type of thing and said, we think of Lake Ann Park as our preIldere park in this cOItIDluni ty. We've got signs on TH 5 that indicate Lake Ann Park. People who are potentially thinking about looking in Chanhassen to move out here, there's always a number of cars .JI"'""that pull in thel:e and want to take a look at the park. It's $2.00 to get into the park and they turn around. Cars do that all the time and we're just sending an image that you can't even take a look at our nicest park here in Chanhassen because you have to pay $2.00 to get in and they do a Park and Rec Commission Meeting November 14, 1989 - Page 30 ....."I U turn and out they go. Mady: I know I'm not supposed to make a motion but I'm going to make a motion to table this pending staff discussion with Council as to getting either a joint llleeting or direction fronl Council what their indications and also I'd like to see staff research whether or not LAWCON law deals all with are we allowed to discilllinate the way we do with charging some people and not others a parking fee. are at Boyt: Second. Mady moved, Boyt seconded to table action on the Lake Ann Park gate fees and directing staff to discuss with Council as to getting either a joint meeting or direction from Council what their indications are on fees. Also, research whether or not LAWCON law deals at all with if the City is allowed to discintinate from charging SOllie people and not others a parking fee. All voted in favor and the motion carried. CONTINUE DISCUSSION ON ACCESSABILITY. Mady: If you want, we can move this to another meeting. Hasek: I was just going to suggest that. I anticipated that Lori actually about twice as much info:tI"lation. She's got SOllie stuff cOllling in ...""" from sOPle other people. To Plove it on but generally in the industry, accessability addresses not only the handicapped bnt the hard of hearing, the slight of seeing and the elderly. If you look through this, BlooPlington is really at the forefront of the Metropolitan area I think. Other cOllmlunities are following suit and it's not just this area. It's kind of a national phenomena that started with the building codes and accessability that they're looking to spreading to other areas so it's coming at us. Mady: So hold onto this. I supposed we should move to table since it's on the agenda. Hasek nloved, Mady seconded to table discussion on accessability until a later meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS: Mady: I have sOPlething that we'll handle after we adjourn. Adminstrative Section. Anybody see anything in there that they want to discuss? Fine. I just want to make a couple COmI'lents on Lake Ann. I drove by there today. I've driven by there previously and went through the park...it's really nice. The play structure is in place up on top. I didn't walk through but that looks really nice. The fencing is partly, well half done it looked like. ...staff should go out and look at. The turn around ramp the end parking lot, it kind of comes out and ends, we're just going to it ..""" on , ~ - Park and Rec Co~~ission Meeting Nove~ber 14, 1989 - Page 31 ,. ",..... have people driving over that so we're going to have to put curbing in there or plantings or so~ething to prevent that. Otherwise it's just going to be a ~ud hole so take a look at that. Hasek: Here it shows right here. I've got a photos folks. I went down and took a look at it. I photographed it. Hoff~an: Any other discussion on eithe~ cO~lission presentations or ad~instration section? Schroers: Yeah, I have a couple of real brief things here. I attended the National Institute on Park and Ground Manage~ent last week. It was here in Minneapolis. I just picked up a couple of things for staff that I thought you ~ight find interesting. One is turf base is the home field advantage. It's a surfacing, I guess what you'd call it is a surfacing ~Iixture for infields that is good for retaining ~Ioisture and holding down dust levels and basically it's a ready ~1ixture of clay. I brought that and SOttle inforl'lation on SOl'le new pieces of equipment that l'lake park work a little easier. You can pass that on. That's about it. Robinson moved, Hasek seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. " Submitted by Lori Sietsettla Park and Rec Coordinator Prepared by Nann Ophei~ , . ~