The URL can be used to link to this page

PRC 1988 04 12 d- CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING I"'''' APRIL 12, 1988 Chairman Mady called the meeting to order at 7:50 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Sue Boyt, Ed Hasek, Jim Mady, Mike Lynch, and Larry Schroers MEMBERS ABSENT: Curt Robinson and Carol Watson STAFF PRESENT: Lori Sietsema, Park and Rec Coordinator and Todd Hoffman, Recreation Supervisor APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Mady moved, Hasek seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meetings dated March 8, 1988 and March 22, 1988. All voted in favor and motion carried. GREENWOOD SHORES: Chris Maher, 7101 Utica Avenue: We went around the neighborhood and got, it's probably three-quarters of the people who couldn't be here tonight that is against parking at the beach. ,..... Boyt: Do you know that the Council does not want us to develop the park any further unless there's parking? Chris Maher: We went through this whole thing last year. Boyt: They wanted some steps to be taken to be reviewed a year later. From what I've heard, there haven't been complaints to the public safety. Chris Maher: That's not right because just the other day there were parking tickets again on several cars. Boyt: Have you made phone calls to the public safety? Don Chmiel, 7100 Tecumseh: I've called the police at least 15 times. Sietsema: That's the input that I didn't have at the time that I wrote up this report. Don Chmiel: I've their vehicles. if they did they different times. personally gone down there and told people to move That it wasn't a permitted use for them to park. That would wind up getting tickets and I've done that several Hasek: Isn't the chain up? ~ Don Chmiel: Yes, the chain's up but they're pulling on the grass adjacent to the street. That's just what happened the other day as Chris Maher said. The Maher's called and he issued tickets for that so it's still happening. Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 2 Boyt: Is it nighttime parties or daytime gatherings? ...." Jeff Farmakes: The majority of the people are teenagers. Boyt: From outside the neighborhood? Mady: What are they doing though? Jeff Farmakes: Drinking. Don Chmiel: I saw two girls going down with a bunch of guys that carne down later with a bag. Mady: What kind of time was it? Don Chmiel: Probably pretty close to 8:30-9:00. Jeff Farmakes: It's not always at night. It just depends. Boyt: Do you have any ideas on what we can do besides calling the public safety all the time? Chris Maher: That's what we were told to do. Any infraction they were to be called so they had a record all the time. That was last year after the meeting when it was down. Cars were corning in, lifting up the chain and riding across the park. Things like that started happening. They ~ were down there real quick when they were called but it's kind of hard to catch them unless they're over at the park. Jeff Farmakes: There The previous November the beer busts slide. every other night and for about month... was a decrease however when the chain went back up. it was kept open... Once that chain went back up, I would say about once a week rather than probably they got smaller. Eventually what we've got now, Boyt: Do you think some landscaping instead of a parking lot would go? Put trees and bushes up there instead of parking lot? Mady: What we're trying to do is open up the park. Right now it's a private park. Chris Maher: No it's not. Don Chmiel: I guess that's a debateable issue. When you say it's a private park, there are people who go to Chaparral who use that park consistently. You have approximately 80 homes within that area who really support and use that park. Any resident if they want to park beyond the no parking signs and they can walk there just as they do as they park in Lake Ann Park and walk down to their beach. It's the same distance. Boyt: It sounds like the problem is the people driving to have parties ..."" so they need to get a place to park. Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 3 ,..... Mady: The parties are happening at night... We can't even discuss that issue until we see what Public Safety brings to us. Boyt: ...what we can do with the park for the neighborhood. If you pull the parking lot... Chris Maher: The thing is, that beach is really small. It's not very big and it can't support a lot of traffic. ...so people who do live close can utilize it easily. There would be cars parked. There would be all kinds of people. A lot of kids down there... It just isn't big enough to have a lot of people using it. There are no patrols. There's just not enough police staff to be going there everyday on the weekend and during the summer to check to see if you have five parking spots, are there five people or are they overflowing allover onto the grass and parking wherever they want to. Who enforces it? Mady: Our plan though for that park is to line the parking area with poles defining where the parking area is. Not along here because those kids they're getting more cars in. Chris Maher: Right now you basically can't get things in there. Hasek: Right now you can probably walk from... ,..... Chris Maher: No, there's no parking. Hasek: I'm saying you can get in. The gate will come down and you can drive anyplace you want. Mady: What we're saying is we're going to define the area and fix it. Jeff were When used it. Farmakes: Under the circumstances, when I saw the plans that you proposing, you're using 50% of cleared area into a parking lot. you refer to it as a park, what it is is a parking lot that will be as a neighborhood park in the area that's developed. They're using Lynch: Part of the plan, there wouldn't be anymore area with boulevards on it than is already gravel now. The little road would go down. Jeff Farmakes: There's no parking there right now. Lynch: I realize that but there wouldn't be anymore land eaten up. Jeff Farmakes: That was put in there to service the pumping station and not a parking lot which is different. ,.... Lynch: Agreed but a gravel driveway is simply not used for park. Forget the parking for a minute and it always bothers me, and I've been around long enough and I've gone through this party problem in several parks. You don't see any practical solution, mechanical solution? Could the Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 4 ~ Jeff Farmakes: There is a light. Lynch: But I mean down further in the park. Is there anything else that we can do? Jeff Farmakes, 3100 utica: I think the real issue here is there is parking there and within your own parameters of 200 feet walking to the car, it fits your own guidelines and refuse parking that people choose three different areas. Three different streets to go down. Park their car. There is a drop-off existing there and the real issue here is that there isn't any parking there. Your alternative is to take half the park and turn it into a parking lot. Now we keep on again, referring to it as a park where we see this pasture scene and full moon. That's just a lot. Chris Maher: The parking down below, this was discussed before too, there's such a hill, an incline up to the street, that it's hazardous to kids on their bikes. They can not see from the parking lot, when they go onto the parking lot, they can't see to that street until you are up on that incline and kids on their bikes and walking and it's just dangerous. It's just not worth it. I have small kids and most of the people there do and it's just not worth it. Jeff Farmakes: I resent the issue that we heard at the meeting once and I think the issue is a non-issue. One of our children got hit there by c hit and run driver, I think it was three years ago and it was on that ....."", corner. I don't think this should be referred to as another issue. That area that the traffic flows was designed 30 years ago when there were three homes there. Mady: Can I ask a question? What you're telling us is you don't want to have parking there, they should park on the street 200 feet away? Chris Maher: Right. Mady: So those kids then should be fine on the street which is where this kid got hit by a car. What we're asking to do is, we may ask to do, is to open up the parking to 4 or 5 stalls whatever, I can't recall the exact number on the plan anymore, which would allow people to park inside the park so they don't have to walk on the street. Jeff Farmakes: But our children walk through the street to get to the park. That would be like putting them in a target area. Mady: Maybe what you need to do is talk with all your neighbors and get them all to agree to allow us to put in an off-street trail along that road then we don't have the problem anymore but that street isn't wide enough for us to put the right-of-way and it's not wide enough for us to put the trailway on the street in there so we're stuck. We can't do it unless we went out and buy the land from you. Jeff Farmakes: But you're ignoring the issue that you're encouraging ....."",. further outside traffic into an area that wasn't designed for it. That in itself is inherently unsafe. The children are there and they're Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 5 ,..... coming out of that parking lot or anyone else is walking down there or riding their bike or anything else. Schroers: I think we're having a problem with the interpretation here. What we're trying to do is to make the park available to the citizens of Chanhassen who want to use it. We're not trying to encourage additional parking. I live in Carver Beach right across from Greenwood Shores and I go to Greenwood Shores quite often. I drive to there and if I decided that I wanted to go fishing through there on Lake Ann or Lake Lucy and I wanted to take my canoe down there, how would I get there? Mady: You want to get to Lake Lucy from where? Schroers: ...Greenwood Shores, park there with a canoe or down to Lake Ann. Mady: There's a drop-off point in front of the beach there. Schroers: What if I don't want to go all the way around. What if I just wanted to go down to Greenwood Shores park? Chris Maher: There's not supposed to be boat launching there. ,..... Schroers: Yes, but people in the neighborhood go down there with their garden tractors and pull their boats down there and launch them. What we're talking about here is what's fair is fair. Jeff Farmakes: Excuse me, on Greenwood Shores park, there is an area between the fence and the road where you can pull your car off from the flow of traffic, off utica, dispose of your canoe, turn around, go up half a block, park your car and walk back down. Mady: But that's not legal. Jeff Farmakes: No it's not. Mady: What you're telling us is that it's unsafe to have kids walk up there. It's unsafe to have cars trying to drive by that parking lot that we put in but it's safe for Larry to park his truck and on top of that take his canoe off? Jeff Farmakes: Wait a minute now. He asked me a specific question of where there was an area and I responded to it. I don't see how that's any less safe in encouraging cars to drive back and forth through there all day and someboby can come in, make a temporary stop, drop their canoe off and turn around and park somewhere else. The point is that he asked where a facility was available and I responded to him. ,..... Mady: But not a legal facility. front yard. Exact same thing. It'd be the same as parking in your Schroers: If there were signs all around that said no parking, if the authority wanted to be a jerk about it he probably could give me a ticket Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 6 ....." just for stopping to unload my canoe. I don't know about the law specifically but say someone just called up to complain about somebody parking in a no parking area there and I was just unloading my canoe and the policeman comes down and says, you're parked and you're in a no parking area so I'm going to write you a ticket. So I get a ticket for just trying to unload my canoe. JoAnn Potz, 6991 Tecumseh Lane: There are people who...all these people out here who are better than the rest of us and they make their own parking spots. They do. It happens... Schroers: I understand and I agree with you and what was discussed in our plan was a 4 to 6 parking spots, was to chain and bo11ard the parking area and to design it so there was room for 4 to 6 cars and that's that. There's no place else to go. Jeff Farmakes: Is it more important to have room for 5 or 6 cars for a 50 by 100 feet beach10t in our neighborhood park? Schroers: In an area immediately adjacent to the pumping station there is room for 4 to 6 cars without taking up any additional open space. As people use, they'll aerate it down below the yellow and grass area, I haven't seen anyone spend anytime doing anything in the gravel area other than walk to get there. JoAnn Potz: I've seen these people also get boats in that area. take boats on the Greenwood Shores to make it even more... ....""" . . . they Schroers: That would certainly be, in that situation, you definitely want to call the authorities. We're not promoting that. JoAnn Potz: But it's too easy for them to sneak it in. If they can drive down. Mady: But if we bo11ard and chain the parking area, you can can't physically take a motor vehicle or boat through that parking area. Schroers: You would have to lift it up over a chain. Jeff Farmakes: ...everybody here has seen the blueprints that you have. One of the questions I have is, when you did the blueprints, how come you didn't show how the parking would relate to the rest of the open area? What you have is more parking lot than you have park. Hasek: That was probably just a way that the person who drew the plan up decided to show the parking area. I don't think there was any intent not to show the entire park. Maybe it was a matter of taking...on a scale he wanted to show that. I think we understand what the neighborhood is asking for. Just to move things along what we might suggest is, before this issue comes before us again, maybe staff could take a look at some of the issues that keep coming up. I am not a traffic expert and I'm sure...sitting out here in the crowd unless I'm mistaken. ...if we could get the staff to take a look at it and maybe tell us whether they think ....."" Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 7 ,.... it's safe or not. What would be safe down there. If there's room to put a trail off of the street and just some of the issues related to pedestrian and traffic. I think you're going to get people going into any park drinking and the only way to control that is to police it... We don't have enough staff to watch it all the time, then that's part of your job as it's my job and the rest of us. I don't know that that particularly is an issue other than it happens in all of the parks so I think the real issues are safety and perhaps even beyond safety, what was the intent of that park when it was first developed. What is the service area of that park and how many people visits for the service and how far does that encompass. Those are some things that we can look at before it comes back again. . Lynch: I'd like to make a statement Jim and point out an example. When the Council originally raised this issue, they raised it saying, an individual council representative said that the parking arrangement that's now available there is (a) not convenient, (b) not known to other people in the community that might come there. I, for one, if I drove over there and saw no parking signs right at the park, that's where my focus is, that's where I want to go, I'd drive down the road a ways and I'm right in front of somebody's house. I'd be kind of hesitate to park right in front of their house on a road that's as narrow as yours because of what I would feel are possible safety problems. Now, I'd like to point out to some of the folks that are here tonight who are friends of ,.... mine, ...and I see Potz and some other folks in that neighborhood..., we used to have a little baseball team and the only place available for us to play then, because of the field use, we had to go to Chanhassen Estates little park that had a small ballfield...but there were 2 or 3 or 4 parking places down there and we parked there. Now that's a perfect example of a neighborhood park being available for whatever purpose it's intended. It was not intended to be a community resource but for our ball team, it was the only place we had to go play to go practice in those days. Without those parking spots, again, if that had all been marked off, I don't know if I would have parked, with a road structured as theirs as bad as yours, with the sharp curves and corners and hills. I don't know if I would have wanted to take my team over there and park on a street in front of somebody's house and walk 2~~ to 3~~ feet down below. Again, the Council that it be conveniently accessible to all residents. That's what they're thinking about. They're thinking about a person can drive there, have small, several places to park. The Carver Beach park has gone through the same metomorphisis where there was an extremely bad party problem. All parking was blocked off. The Commission looked at this and was in favor, the problem was so bad. That sort of went away. It was blocked off for several years and the Council decided to open it. To date now there hasn't been any big problem. We'll see by the end of the summer. There is now about 3 or 4 parking places. So that's kind of where the Council is coming from and that's where we're coming from. I think the key really is that can we have convenient access for all without causing teenage problems. There are a ~ few problems that are aggravated problems. JoAnn Potz: What was brought up that where the end of the no parking signs are is the same distance from there to the beach as it is at Lake Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 8 "".,. Ann from where you park and where you walk to the beach. Mady: I'm not going to cut off any further discussion on this item. It's not on our agenda and we have a full agenda yet for tonight. You'll be invited to come back when it is on our agenda. Thank you for your comments. Sietsema: I will notify you when it's back on the agenda. I will notify the neighborhood. Schroers: Can I make one quick comment? I would just like to get the point across that we are not working against the residents of Greenwood Shores. We would like to work with you to accomplish what would be an acceptable solution for everyone so we would be more than open to any of your ideas or suggestions if you want to come up with a reasonable solution. Jim Schluck: Is it possible to have the records when this park was deeded over from Greenwood Shores to the Village. Do we have accurate records? Can you get that? Sietsema: I don't know that I even have all that information. Mady: Again, I'm going to cut this off and staff can do what they can find. ~ ESTABLISH POLICIES FOR TYPES OF TRAIL USE. Sietsema: In putting this together, I'm not expecting that we're going to be able to come to a conclusion to develop a policy tonight as far as what's going to be allowed on different types of trails, but I wanted us to get thinking about it and thinking what the different uses and different requests are out there. Also, that it probably is going to take, whatever we decide is going to take backing up by beefing up our ordinance or maybe amending the ordinance, depending on what you come up with. The reason that's it on right now, why I'm bringing it up to your attention is because we do have some nature trails that are on private land that we don't actually have the easements for. The private homeowners are developing, putting those trails in and he is requesting that no horses be allowed on those trails. I need to know if I'm supposed to order signs for that or if we're going to make a policy that in our rural area where there's the only spot in the whole city left to ride horses, are we going to allow horse riding on those trails so it's just if you could give me, some direction on that specific instance and then also, start us thinking about what our trail rules and regulations are going to be. Lynch: Can I start by asking Larry a question? policy? What's the metro park's .""., Schroers: We have designated a forest trail and I guess the state of the art in trails these days, a word that always comes up time and time again Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 9 If!""'" are multi-use and multi-purpose. What we do is allow horse riding on some of trails that are primarily constructed for cross country skiing but in the off-season and they also serve as hiking trails. It works out quite well really. There's no reason why people can't hike on the same trail that horses ride on and anytime there is a problem is when you get snow on the trails and the trails are open for cross county skiing then it's closed for horse riding. It's for skiing only at that time. I think normally during the winter months, I don't know how much trail riding goes on at that time of year anyway. That's the way we handle it in Hennepin Parks. Sietsema: What are they doing in Hennepin Parks about horse droppings? Schroers: Nature takes care of that. Sietsema: Most of those are either mowed trails or deer paths or something like that anyway. Schroers: They are mowed, cleared trails that otherwise most of them are 20 foot wide trails that are brushed out and stumped out. Sietsema: But I mean where we're proposing a lot of them are deep in the ravine along Bluff Creek and are probably going to remain just what the ,...., deer paths are. Lynch: I'm sure that we're going to need to look at some multi-use aspects in size of terrain because if you for instance do get in a ravine and three hikers and three horses meet corning the wrong way, somebody's got to get out of the way. If you guys have not had any problems, and have long experience with it, they have very wide trails. Very wide open trails. Schroers: We also do have an extensive maintenance staff that if someone calls up and complains in one particular area, there's an unreasonable amount of droppings on the trail or whatever, then we'll run our guys out there to clean it up and haul it away. I don't know if the City has that kind of staff available for that sort of thing. On the private land, the private landowner is letting us use that land for a nature trail, they surely have the right to say if they do or don't want horses on it. I think the responsibility of the City at some point in time, when you reach that stage of development, to provide facilities for as many uses as you can. We should be able to have at least a specified area of whatever size in the southern part of town that will accomodate horses. Hasek: I have a question. Do we have any ordinance that address what size parcel of land you have to have in order to have a horse? Sietsema: Yes, you have to have so many acres. Maybe you know that ,..., Carol. Carol Dunsmore: horses. I believe it's one acre per horse. Two acres for two Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 10 --' Hasek: Are there setbacks that relate to farms and setbacks that relate just to residential? Carol Dunsmore: It's just the standard setback. Hasek: So actually on a one acre lot if you wanted to have horse you could jam the lot with a barn and horse. What do other cities that are generally close or far away from the metropolitan do? I know Orono has several horses in it. Medina does too but Medina's a heck of a lot more rural than we are. Orono wants to be rural, they count themselves as rural. Sietsema: I really don't know what other cities are doing. I haven't checked into it that far. Hasek: You might look into it. development, maybe it is beyond trail system that would connect would take. Again, there are some bounda~ies where certain areas where we could establish a with Eden prairie has one. That's all it Boyt: We need to put a snowmobile trail system in the area. Do you ride in the winter very much? That's what I'm wondering if that be turned over to the horses in the summer. ...."" Hasek: Aren't those trails leased from the private owners? Boyt: Yes, but those people were willing to share hunting on their trails. They might be willing to work out something with horse lovers. A tape break occurred at this point. Hasek: Why do you think he took that opportunity away from you? Carol Dunsmore: I really don't know. Hasek: Have you talked to him at all about it? Carol Dunsmore: Yes. Hasek: And he hasn't given you any reasoning. Just no more horses. Carol Dunsmore: Not directly because we have our... Sietsema: What he told me was that the horses chew up the grass and it makes it hard to mow the trail. Carol Dunsmore: Another area that we can ride in is Vern Gagne's property. We're just finding that areas we used to ride in when it came to Chanhassen are now suddenly have houses on that property so I ~ appreciate the City taking a look at this. We really need it. There are a lot of horses in the area so I appreciate if you could be thinking about where people can ride that will be... Park and Recreation Commissi.on Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 11 ,.... Schroers: One thing that you should maybe aware of is that, Hennepin Parks have trails that are for horse riding. They are not necessarily directly connected to a community where horses corne from. We have parking areas at the beginning of the trail and people trailer their horses to the trail and then bring them out and ride them. How do you feel about that? Carol Dunsmore: We do that also but we're losing what's close to home and we're not interested in every time you want to riding, putting the horses in a trailer. It seems that we're living in an area that we should promote riding...changing as the City changes. Sietsema: They are concerned that for their evening ride, they have no place to ride anymore for their evening exercising of the horse. Karen Hasse: And I ride in the day...so every time I corne home from work to take the horse trailer and take them l~ to 15 miles for a ride... Boyt: It would be nice for Chanhassen to have a facility so they wouldn't have to trailer their horses. Hasek: Like I said, maybe it's not as big a number...to another system .~ so we can get into a bigger system. Schroers: Is there an area the size of property in your neighborhood that would be suitable? Carol Dunsmore: Well we ride in adjacent areas but they really aren't established trails. We try to stay in fields...and it works out alright but there's always the question of is it okay that we're here and it'd be kind of nice to know that it can be used for that purpose. Mady: If we Chanhassen. a good share horses. get the opportunity with that parkland in southern ...maybe we can set aside something, I'm hoping to set aside anyway as a natural area and maybe we can designate some for Lynch: I'm sure what you're going to run into Jim is that for every... area aside it's going to immediately adjacent to probably l~% of the horse owners. The horse owners are going to have to ride the highway to get there if they don't have trailers. Carol Dunsmore: Unless you have room on the existing trails... Lynch: That's what I mean...in that area... a lot of problems developing just for a narrow trail for pedestrians. When you get the extra width you need and perhaps the extra say for the horses, that may be too much ~ to ask for the future. Carol Dunsmore: Speaking from experience,...but 4 to 6 i.s half the size so it's not necessary to make it... Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 12 ..."", Hasek: There has to be a safety factor for two horses meeting or a horse and another use so that's where it comes in... You're not going to want pedestrians along where horses are going down the trail. I wouldn't want my kids to be. Lynch: You could sum up our job here by saying that we want to put in everything that we can afford, reasonably, that is going to be used. The cash comes, we can afford reasonably, because sometimes things we think we can afford the Council says we can not afford. Mady: I might suggest that you contact Dick Kost since he represents the snowmobile trail committe from this area and find out what they've got and how they went about getting it. They get some money from the DNR somehow and there might be an opportunity that exists for horse riders. Maybe they just take back off what they have in their in system, share it but we'll keep your needs and desires in mind when we're looking at trails and how we can use them and where they exist but I think Mike's pretty much accurate on our limitations with the budget. We'll do what we can but I guess I don't foresee us going out and obtaining 10 or 15 miles of horse trails. We'll try to do as much as we can with as much money as we get and we'll you in mind. It would work best with the snowmobilers and they're going to be running in 5 years I would guess too as the city develops. ......", Sietsema: They're already running into problems. Mady: So it's not a unique problem and they're looking at it, maybe that's a realistic way for you to expand what you've got. They at least have the contacts and they know because they've done it. That may be very helpful to you. Carol Dunsmore: The dotted line there on the map, are those trails already designated for specific use or are those the ones you're working on for the future and what those can be used for? Sietsema: The ones we're working on. We haven't obtained them yet. Lynch: Those are proposed. Carol Dunsmore: or what? So you talk about if they're paved or woodchips, grass Lynch: We probably would be talking about that if the trails ever get passed. Schroers: The trails program just got voted down on the referendum. Carol Dunsmore: If a trail is on a person's private property, ... Sietsema: It would be some. Again, the problem with Tim's property is we don't have an actual public easement over it. It's something that I'll be working on but I don't know that Tim is willing to do that. He's ......", Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 13 ,.... willing to maintain a trail for public use but he's not actually willing to sign off on it. We can't make him do that without paying him for that easement so he has the right to say no horses if he doesn't want horses on his private property. If we have a trail easement that goes along the whole length of Bluff Creek and it is an actual easement that we own, then we have the jurisdiction to say yes, horses are allowed on this trail. But where you come to an area that is on private property like this, it would have to be signed no horses on this nature trail. Carol Dunsmore: I appreciate your time and that you're thinking about this but in a more general planning sense, as the city continues to develop, I think manage to maintain a trail system, something would appeal... Mady: We would like to do that too. We work on this about every meeting. We can do little things. We can do more planning but we can't put anything in. We have very little money to do that. Schroers: One thing, if you'd like to let your neighbors know that if you do want trails, spread the word and get out and vote yes on the next referendum. Our hands are tied. Carol Dunsmore: ...Hennepin parks has got beautiful trails. ,.... Lynch: Our referendum only went down by two votes and I'm sure we've got a couple of votes on there. Go talk to those folks. To give you an idea of the financial ramifications. A mile of developed trail is $40,000.00. Carol Dunsmore: Is that just a mowed grassy area or are you talking about paved trails? r.YRch. That-' s ;::a Ray-ynw o;::ayor'l t-r;::a; 1 I'J1h;::at-' co i! 1 € 4"",,,,+- ...; "h+-_",4"_...""" K a o~ nIce ~o K uw ~na~ ~ can oe usea ~or ~na purpose. a 6 toot paved in the middle but it's extremely expensive. t..y; ~ h Carol Dunsmore: A horse trail is a little cheaper. Real cheap. Lynch: It may be that when and if we're able to develop down there and some trails are laid out for horse trails, we may welcome them all on. The Chanhassen Horse Owners Association to get out there and brush and clear and help the ground crews. Even if the referendum passes, we're going to have to spend that money very, very carefully to get the most we can out of it. Sietsema: One more thing about trails. Just a feeling, if I could just get a feeling from the Commission here about pets on trails. On the bike trails. Are we going to allow pets on trails? If so, we have to think about leash laws and pooper scooper laws. ~ Lynch: We already have a leash law. Sietsema: Do we? Mady: Yes we do. Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 14 ....",I Sietsema: But we also have an ordinance that says no pets in parks and trails are considered lineal parks so we have to amend that. Hasek: I don't see any problem with animals. I don't actually see any problem myself with animals in the parks. It's not the animals, it's the mess they leave behind and the idiot who owns the dog that thinks it's okay to leave it there. That's what I have a problem with. If we could educate the idiot that owns the pet, that would be okay. Lynch: I don't think you can reasonably prevent that because we're asking subdivisions now that they have off-street trails. Well, you're talking sidewalks. You're going to tell a guy who lives in that subdivision that he can't walk his dog at night? I wouldn't want someone trying to say that. Sietsema: I personally would not like to see us allow animals in parks. I wouldn't want to change that. Trails are fine. Hasek: You don't find people laying down on a trail very often and that's what really makes you mad. You put your blanket down and you sit down and you feel this squish. Sietsema: The reason for that is because people in parks have a tendency to let their animal run. On a trail they're going somewhere. The anima] is with them but in a park, you're trying to have your family picnic and -' somebody's dog is jumping on top of your kid and taking his chicken out of his hand, then he leaves his mess behind and you've got all kinds of things to deal with. That's my own personal feeling. Mady: I'd like to see also, if we do develop some natural park areas that are next to a walkway, it might be advantageous to the people around who are hunters be allowed to have their dogs, train their dogs in the water. Lynch: It'd be easy enough to set a little place aside. Even like where the Lake Ann trails between Greenwood Shores, that little spot. Say this is the dog training area. ESTABLISH "WISH LIST". Sietsema: The reason I asked for this to be changed is because we do have a potential eagle scout in audience who is looking for a project so if anybody had something on their wish list that would be eligible for an eagle scout project, let's hear it. Lynch: I'll give you mine. This is for everybody elses benefit, one of the reasons why I asked Lori to put this on is that we get requests a lot, we've got John and there are two more kids coming up in the troop here in town and that's only one of the troops where we get applicants. Of these jobs, the scout masters eagle instructions is that an eagle project has to have lasting benefit. It can be a lasting social benefit. A lasting physical benefit. A lasting safety benefit but it has to last. ..""" Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 15 """ Of these jobs, the scout masters eagle instructions is that an eagle project has to have lasting benefit. It can be a lasting social benefit. A lasting physical benefit. A lasting safety benefit but it has to last. If you look down the list here, the first one would be fine. Little pick-up wouldn't go although it is something that needs to be done and it might be good for a star project for some of the troops. Clearing trails along Carver Beach Road. That's a little heavier duty project than that. It needs to be, and you might note this on yours Lori, it's resurfaced, culverts added and sides timbered in some spots. It has to be straighten out and it has to have some work done. Plantings around Legion Shelter would be a good one. Bridge construction at Lake Ann would be great. Hasek: Plantings around Legion Shelter. They can do something like that? Lynch: We're talking a landscaping job. Mady: I've never seen one around, especially if it's used as much as that one gets used, that's going to survive. I think it's just a waste of money. Boyt: Another place you could do that is Carver Beach Playground needs landscaping. ~ Sietsema: It's not necessarily bushes I guess. It would be just flowers and that kind of thing. Boyt: We need spectator seating at the parks. Like Chan Estates. It could be small. It could be benches but we need spectator seating. Lynch: At some of the ballfields there, if we put heavy green timber benches in there. Mady: Like Lake Ann. Sietsema: Are you talking terracing the hill? Lynch: No, putting benches... Sietsema: I don't know how hard that would be to mow around but I know that we have had people say that for older people it is hard to sit on that hill. Boyt: You put your benches in a line and you put some gravel underneath them so you get a straight line for mowing. Lynch: You couldn't do that on a hill. Schroers: The only way you could do that would be to terrace. ~ Lynch: Yes, and that would be too big a job. Mady: A couple other projects that need to be done. We have a number of Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 16 -' Sietsema: Is that still there? Boyt: It was supposed to be taken down last year. Chanhassen Pond Park, it was supposed to be down. I haven't noticed it up. Mady: The ball is still there. Boyt: It's a new city ordinance. Schroers: I don't know about the barbed wire. It looked like somebody cleaned up some of the mess down by Greenwood Shores Park. Did you give direction to clean that up? Sietsema: Yes, we talked to Dale about it when he was in here that one time. One of the times that he was in here we brought it to his attention. Schroers: No, this was on Sunday. Sietsema: At Greenwood Shores, yes there was a girl scout troop that cleaned up that night. Lynch: ...some person is not particularly responsible for. Somebody who's responsible for it or tell Lori and she'll tell them to get it out of there. If it's something that there's no particular responsibility, call me, I'll call John's scoutmaster and I'll get a barbed wire removal over. '""""" Sietsema: I don't know if it's been removed or not but I know that there was barbed wire between Greenwood Shores and Lake Ann along the trail there and there was by Chanhassen Pond. I believe that we asked Dale to remove it but he was so shorthanded last year, I don't know if he ever got down to it. Lynch: Let me know if it doesn't look like it's going to get done through normal channels and I'll get some of the Schmitz' boys and we'll go down there and rip it out. Hasek: What about bridge construction on Lake Ann? Sietsema: I went out there and I don't know that it's going to be like a scout project or not because it's that big ravine that goes down into Carver Beach that runs through the tree farm. They'd have the trail going along the north side of TH 5, they're going to have to get over that because we don't want to go out onto the four lane highway. I think it's going to have to be like a huge bridge. Hasek: We don't own that ravine do we? Sietsema: Yes. ~ Hasek: We own that ravine all the way up into the park? Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 17 ,.... Sietsema: Yes. Hasek: Maybe we can take the trail and push it into the park a ways and go down that hill and cross the creek. Sietsema: Except for a biker who's coming from Victoria and headed for St. Paul on a big long day bike trip. He's going to end up going out on the highway. He's not going to want to do that. Hasek: The guy's that going from here to St. Paul isn't going to be on that trail anyway. He's going to be on the road. Sietsema: Out on TH 5? Hasek: You bet. There are bikers going into Minneapolis on 1-94 in the morning. Mady: I've got a couple other items. There's a lot of p1aygound equipment that could be painted bright colors. Some of the wood structures should be stained. Not any specific site but... The shelter at Chan Estates Park, we were talking about just rebuilding that. I believe was it Jeremy that did the bridge down here? The help he had, a couple of fathers that are carpenters that were looking at that earlier, ~ it's just to stabilize that structure and rebuilding it. That could probably be a scout project. Lynch: The project that you accomplish, he goes out and he's charged with going out and finding one. His scout master can't find one for him. He shops around for what he wants to do and then he makes a preliminary write-up. He takes it to his scout master. The scout master says yes or no. The scout master says yes, he goes to the troop and he explains and they say yes or no. They say yes, he takes it to the district and let's them look at it and they say yes or no. If they say yes, then he comes back and he says I want to do this. This is what I want to do and the way I want to do and these are my plans and this is the money it's going to cost and time. Then he goes out and he does it in a reasonable length of time. Reasonable for the project that it is. Then he has to go all back through all those same people and they have to look at what he's done and say yes, he did it and he did it right. This is obviously to get the youth out of his unit and out to meet with strange people. The key words in the eagle project is it has to be a lasting value. It can't be of any benefit whatsoever to scouting and the majority of the people that he works with in the project, have to be others. He has to give leadership to others. Jeremy spent the whole summer building a bridge down there with his dad. He did a beautiful job. His job was to organize the other people to do the job. Organize everything and there are regularly youngsters who fail. The reason why they make it that tough is they want to see them stretch themselves. ,..., Boyt: Some of these do not pertain at all to eagle scout projects. of these would cost a lot of money. Some Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 18 Sietsema: This is what I need because I have Girl Scout troops and Brownies and like I had a Cub Scout group call me on Monday and say, we want to pick up trash somewhere, where can we go? ......" Boyt: Park shelters at parks with lights. Trash pick-up everywhere. Flowers at each park sign. A large flower planting at the playgrounds. Spectator seating by ball diamonds such as Chan Estates and Chaparral. Plantings like trees, shrubs and flowers. Field lighting at Lake Ann. Equipment to be used at the parks. Paddleboats and canoes. Bike racks at some parks. Concession stand at the City Center Park. Playground equipment at City Center Park. Basketball courts at Carver Beach playground and Vandimere Heights. Bandshell or gazebo for the City Center Park. Donation of land of 5 acres or more for parks. Trail work for bridges in the Bluff Creek area. Fishing docks. Schroers: ...consider where we might want to have an archery range. Lynch: Any of these projects that come up that are on there now that look like something, not just a wish list but something you really would need to be done, call me and in like 20 minutes I can call four or five scoutmasters that are around here and see if somebody will pick it up to do the next weekend. Sietsema: We need trash pick-up in all the parks. sin with trash right now. They're all ugly as -."""I Mady: The whole city is this year. It's just terrible. Sietsema: It's just all the construction and all the blowing around and everything, there's garbage everywhere. That's an immediate need that I see so if you know anybody that needs an afternoon project. Lynch: John, was there anything there that you saw that particularly appealed to you? What you can do, Lori in a week you'll have that list typed up? Sietsema: Sure. Lynch: Is contact Lori and get the list and sit down and really take a hard look at it. Schroers: I have a question. These flower beds and flower gardens are a good idea but who's going to take care of them? You can plant trees and shrubs and put a few woodchips around them and they're okay but a flower garden, that needs constant care. They need to be weeded and watered. Sietsema: We do have a couple of spots around the City that the master gardeners take care of and one of them is this little flower bed that's outside the library. Lynch: Could we notify that organization that we'd like to see some worl.--, done in specific areas because that master gardener organization is a neat deal. They've always got new blood coming in there and they have to Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 19 ,..., do their project to get their master gardener certificate. So that's what it amounts to. They have to do a public project and they have to keep it for a year. It has to look neat. Schroers: Weren't you talking about something for your Brownies but after they initially put them in, then will they come back and maintain them and take care of them? Boyt: Hennepin did the daffodils or the crocuses along the creek. Thousands of them. They come up, crocuses come up, they bloom, and they wither. It was just beautiful last year. They planted it in amongst the grass. Schroers: I'm just asking because I don't know a lot about it except that the few flower beds that we have around where I work take a lot of care. Sietsema: Sue, do you have to go out and water those or anything? Boyt: The tulips that my Brownies put in last year, we put them next to a sign. They're going to come up year after year and you don't have to worry about them. That's just it. You don't water them. ,..., Mady: It would be nice if every park sign in the City had a small bed or tulips or irises or something perennial that comes up early in the spring because those usually don't need a lot of water and maintenance or anything. They just come up. They're there. They're there for about two weeks and then they're gone. Hasek: You can do those things in the grass area and they're usually gone before the grass cutting season even starts. Schroers: And they're not like bulbs that have to be dug up in the fall? Boyt: No, you just leave them in year after year. You don't get as many flower blossoms in the following years but you still get some. I talked to Dale about it last year before about seeing what we should plant. PARK DEDICATION FEES. ,.... Sietsema: I came up with some numbers for service areas for the park dedication and that's what this map up here is. It shows each park and the black circle around each one of these parks represents the service area for each park. As you can see, we've got some overlapping, especially in here and here, so it's difficult to measure how many people are actually be served by that park when they may be served by as many as three parks. Then when you count the service area for this park along here, you can not really count the people on this side of the lake because of the barrier so we didn't count those numbers but if you just take how many people are within each different service area, you can see that we are over the 1 acre per 75 people.tn Carver Beach playground, City Center Park and Cathcart park, All three of those have shared Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 2@ ......" service areas so that decreases really that number because if you consider Cathcart Park and Minnewashta Park, all these people are being served by two parks. I don't know how you want to determine that. Hasek: I think the way that has to be done is that really has to be closer looked at based on barriers. It's kind of like a fire response study. It's not a matter of drawing a circle and saying this is the area we serve because they have a time deal that figures out exactly what that is and looks at how far they can get and that kind of stuff. I really think that's what happens here. You have a projected population that you want to serve by each of those parks and just knowing that there's an industrial area within part of that, does that extend the role upon another park? Is there time involved in their distance a little bit? Some judgment has to be made on some of that. For example Cathcart Park, the service area for Cathcart Park is probably all up in Shorewood. Sietsema: It's very questionable if any of these people over here are being served. That they're going to cross TH 7 to get over to Cathcart. Hasek: The only reason that that park gets used is for like playground stuff like the ballfields and soccer and hockey. Sietsema: Organized play. Hasek: Then the parents are taking the kids across because TH 7, nobody in their right mind let's their kids cross that highway. That little one~ in Minnewashta there, nobody goes skating there except for those people. They're the only ones that use it. If you want to do something more recreational, you go across the street to the one that's in Shorewood. I also think that maybe if there are any that abut our community, like that one in Shorewood, just north of TH 7 right across from Minnewashta Shores there, if there are any other in another city that actually serve a part of our area, we should know about those too. In other words, maybe what appears to be a hole in here really isn't. Cathcart serves Shorewood. It's owned Shorewood. No, it's ownedby us but it's maintained by Shorewood. Sietsema: It's not owned by us, it's owned by Shorewood. Hasek: It is owned by Shorewood and maintained by Shorewood and it's in our city limits. Sietsema: Located within our city but owned by Shorewood. Hasek: These are just the city parks. Sietsema: Right. This is just neighborhood parks. It didn't inlcude Lake Ann or Lake Susan so basically you can see here that our populated area is being served. Except for these few holes that we've got in the Eckankar property and Saddlebrook property is now being filled in, there's not a whole lot more development that's going to go on there. -,. It's pretty much filled. We do have a hole right here in Pleasant Hills and that's already filled but we don't know what area in there that's ,...., ,...., ,...., Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 21 going to become available for us. We do have a few small outlots within Pheasant Hills that may be conducive for a totlot, small totlot or something but nothing that if you could just put an ice rink on one of the ponds. Hasek: This is all brand new in here too isn't it? How come we don't have a park in there? Sietsema: The final plat was done before I was here so they're just doing the last phases so by the time I got here it was too late to make a request. Hasek: Maybe what we should think about then, if we're serious about it, there are still empty lots in there. Maybe we should think about buying a lot. Boyt: You said to maintain the ice... Sietsema: There's an outlot that has a holding pond. Mady: Can we get back on the subject. It sounds like we're talking about the next item on the list. Sietsema: I'll start over. At the last meeting I was directed to find out how many people are being served by each park. How many people are within the service area of each park. So we went to each park and drew the service area around each one and that's what this represents. Each one of these, here's a park and the circle represents the service area. As you can see in a more populated area, we've got people served by more than one park. I think the most within the service area is three parks at the same time. The only hole that I really see is up here in the Pheasant Hill area and again, we have two or three outlots that were dedicated to the City that would be big enough for perhaps a totlot. It's just that there is usually a holding pond on those out lots and so it would be up to the Commission to decide if they think totlots or something should be located that close to a body of water like that. I don't know what the liability or what those implications are. On one of those outlots where there's a holding pond, we do maintain it as an ice rink in the winter time so we are serving them to that extent. Otherwise, where our development is coming in, Saddlebrook is here so they're covered. Chanhassen Hills is here and they've dedicated a park within that, it's just not developed yet. Lake Susan Hills West is over here and they've got three different park sites here so they're covered. When we asked for parkland, we figured it to the 1 per 75. So the people per acre is over the standard on Carver Beach Playground, Cathcart Park and City Center Park, but again, some of the people in those service areas are served by another park as well so. it's difficult to figure out where we really are deficient. I don't think that our parks, where they are right now, are overused except for when we start talking about the league sports. I don't think that we need to alter our standard so we require less parkland. I don't think that should happen at all but as far as neighborhood use I think we're doing pretty good. I still firmly believe that we're going to have to beef up our community park because Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 22 ....", right now, as Todd can testify, the youth programs are absolutely filled up every single space we have in every neighborhood park throughout the City so we're at capacity right now as far as our community use. Therefore, my recommendation is to raise the fee as shown. Did I include in your packets the old memo? Mady: Yes. This one? Sietsema: That has the outlining? Mady: Yes, with the calculations on it. Sietsema: Based on that memo and the calculations that that will justify, I'm recommending that we raise it to that level and then concentrate on beefing up our community park as we are doing with the Lake Ann expansion that's planned and the southern area. Hasek: What were the old numbers? Sietsema: The old numbers were $415.00 per unit for single family, $415.00 per unit for duplex and the multiple was varied. I just consolidated them and took an average. The industrial was $1,035.00 per acre so the biggest increase was $15.00. Hasek: The only concern I have, I guess when we did this before and I think I talked to you about on the telephone a couple of times, is that there was justifiable means for doing that. As long as that's down and we can defend it, that's all I really care about. ....", Sietsema: I think that our City Attorney would be very happy with the way we've got this and he would have no problem taking it into court. Mady: I'd personally like to see you is anyway we can justify going higher capricious. Since that doesn't stand to have to go with what's defensible. go higher but I don't think there without just being arbitrary and up in court very well, we're going This is what it is. A motion was made at this point with the following discussion. Lynch: When these first came into being, they seemed to represent a much larger percentage of the value of the land than they do now because I've been on the board long enough and was here through the years of 20% interest rates and the 15% and 20% and 25% per year increase in the land value and we did not take but 3% to 5% increases on this fee in that era. Not remember what those fees were in those days, it's obvious that the percent we have now versus what the land is, was not what it was in those days. It was felt that it was a controversial thing to do when they were established and they got beyond that so I don't think that this is enough probably. The $15.00 is not too much. I also think it's not enough. I think it could be more. ....", Haesk: I felt exactly the same way. I think when this first came out, what concerned me was I guess I didn't want to, I spend my day working Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 23 ,... for the developer and this is kind of on the other side of the fence for me but what can you do but when I looked at it I wanted it be fair from both sides. I see so many cities that we go into that are way out of line with the way that they calculate and the way that they figure it. They simply say, that's the way it is so that's the way it is. You know if you want your project you're going to pay the piper unless you've got so much money and you're such a big developer that you want to contest it. That's why when I talked to Lori the first time, I wanted to make sure that there was a way to calculate it and it had some rationale behind it and what she's basing it on is land values. Lynch: Let's say for instance that a developer wanted to put in 25 units and we were to raise this $50.00. On a 25 unit development, it's $2,500.00 and that's not going to deter a builder. The builders are used to the fact now that they have to pay these things. I'm sure if they were all sitting in a room and we said would you like us to raise these $50.00 fees, they'd say no but I think we could raise them $50.00 apiece and I'll bet you we wouldn't have two people in the next year say, hey you raised that $50.00. I don't think they'd ever see it. Sietsema: Probably not but do we want to do what you can get away with or do we want to do what we can justify? That's the bottom line. J1"'" Lynch: You can justify what you can get away with. That's a justification in itself. I'm serious. I think we're bending too far to the side of conservatism here. Sietsema: I don't care one way or the other. My personal feeling, I don't think it makes that much difference but our fees are not out of line with what other communities are doing. We're right in the mainstream of what we're doing and then you take into consideration that we have added a trail dedication fee so the park and trail dedication fee is now up over $600.00. If you take that all into consideration, we're doing pretty good but again, Roger has no problem holding this up in Court and taking this to Court if anybody should contest it. He's comfortable with it. I'm comfortable with it. Lynch: Where does Roger reach a problem though? Sietsema: He reaches a problem when it is not based on land values. It's got to all come back to density and land value. In dollars, I don't know. He doesn't care how much it is either. Lynch: Is approaching the limit $500.00? Is it approaching $600.00? When I go out and design and sell industrial systems, I decide what that customer can pay maximum for that system and my price is below that. Very close below that. ,... Sietsema: Based on what our land, the County Assessor has said what our land values are, this is what his limit is. He hasn't picked out a number out and said I can't hold anything. I don't know what you want me to say Mike. Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 24 Lynch: I'll tell you what I'm asking for. The County Assessor has come up with figures. Let's take a rough number. Let's say he says $425.00 is reasonable. Everything has a plus and minus. What's plus? ....". Sietsema: This is plus. I took it all high. Lynch: I know but I mean, where do you reach the point where this is no longer "reasonable". I don't think, what I'm asking, you don't know that. I don't know that. The County Assessor doesn't know. Nobody sitting at this table knows it so if we've got, it only costs a nickle to ask. If we've got to establish a new number, we don't establish it, the Council establishes it. So instead of making it $425.00, let's make it $450.00. If they say no, we say okay, make it $425.00 then. Hasek: I think you're missing the point. Boyt: Instead of that way, we could say, because we have to change the number or the cost per acre or the number of 75. Hasek: What you have to do is you have to go back to the County Assessor and get him to say that the value of the land is not worth $15,000.00 an acre, it's worth $20,000.00 an acre which would justify coming down to a $450.00 instead of $425.00. What the City Attorney is saying is he approves of the process that we've gone through using the numbers that we have which makes it defendable for him. Now he doesn't care where that bottom number comes out as long as the process is correct and that's all ~ I asked Lori to do. I wouldn't have cared if this came out where everybody paid, and I feel exactly the same way you do, I think that the developer is going to charge the person. You're going to see it. It goes into a 30 year mortgage. Who cares? That's exactly the way I felt. The problem is that when you pick a number that this is based on, then at that point you are being arbitrary and capricious. Reasonableness doesn't even come into it because they'll hit you on arbitrary and capricious before you ever get to reasonableness. Lynch: During the year of 1988 and I was talking to a realtor the other day, the land prices are supposed to start going up. You're in the business. Now he was talking 5% to 12% depending on where you live and what kind of property you had. Why can't we say, I don't think it's sneaky to say, we set this, this is good for all year. By the end of '88, your property, we're not going to make that 10% anymore or whatever percent that is. We're going to be less than that so we're going to shoot for a midrange. Hasek: That might be something that we could do. See I think that that would work. Boyt: That's legitimate? Sietsema: Sure. Hasek: Adjust it for inflation. -' Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 25 ,... Sietsema: So who's word do we take that it's going to increase a certain percent? Do I go back to Scott Winters and say how much do you anticipate the land values to increase in 1988? He's the one I got the figures from in the first place. He's the one who does the actual survey. The Assessor. Hasek: Maybe what you could do is either ask him or ask the Attorney if it would be alright to take the word of like, there must be a State Realtor Association of some sort that would have sort of the land projected inflation rates on land that is a valid number. Maybe there's even a State agency that does that type of plan. Makes a projection based on state taxes or something like that. Mady: The State does it just from property tax. Hasek: Yes but Lori, this has got to be frustrating for you. I feel the way he does. I was hoping that there was some way that this number could come up higher and be justifiable. Really, because it disappears anyway but as far as I'm concerned, it has to be justifiable. Sietsema: To be perfectly honest with you, the numbers that I got from Scott, I'm pushing to the absolute limit for $425.00. ,... Boyt: Those are good numbers but if the land prices are going to go up 25% in 1988, then we can't project... Lynch: When was this evaluation taken? Sietsema: In 1987. Lynch: When in 1987? Sietsema: January of 1987. Lynch: Alright, so we're talking January, 1987. We're a year behind already. Mady: I have a feeling that what we're looking at is, the realtor is going to say in the neighborhood of 10% and that's where we're going to end up. We're just going to bump each fee 10%. I think what we're trying to do is justify raising the fee. I think the inflation, that's what our job is really is to voice all this out and see where we can get to so we can make a recommendation that the City can stand behind in Court. ,.... Sietsema: I feel like saying, pick a number and I'll go back and justify it. I'll rearrange it to justify it. Mady: That's kind of how we started this whole process. Sietsema: Then you want me to say it's $425.00, that's what the fee should have been for 1987. Based on the 1988 projected land values, that should be increased by such and such percent? Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 26 ...."", Hasek: Yes, if that can be done. If you can find a source for that. Lynch: I'd even like you to look at it on an 18 month basis. Say we'd like to look at median 1988 values. That would be halfway through the year so January, 1987 to June-July, 1988 at whatever rate of increases that you can find to do with it. I really felt badly back in the days of the heavy duty inflation because those few years ate into our park equity money a great deal and we lost money and we weren't able to raise the rates. The philosophy at that time was that we wanted to wait. We wanted Chanhassen to develop and it was necessary to keep these rates low for the developer. I disagreed with it at that time, I guess I still do but that's why we lost those increases. Mady: I'm going to move to the vote on the motion. Hasek: The motion is to accept it as suggested by staff and we've got some discussion that goes along with that. The suggestion would be that we simply let the motion fail and make a new motion. Hasek moved, Schroers seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to adopt the existing park acreage standard and to establish the 1988 Park Dedication fees as follows: Single family Duplex Multiple Family Industrial $425.00 per unit $425.00 per unit $280.00 per unit $1,050.00 per acre ~ Hasek voted in favor, all the rest voted in opposition to the motion and the motion failed. Sietsema: I need a motion to direct staff. Hasek moved, Schroers seconded to direct staff to take one last look at the numbers that they've proposed in light of inflation over the next 12 to 18 months and see if they can't justify a slightly greater increase in the park dedication fees. All voted in favor and motion carried. REVIEW REQUEST TO PURCHASE PARK PROPERTY IN THE NORTH SECTION OF THE CITY. Sietsema: This item comes from homeowners in the Lake Lucy Highlands area. This is Lake Luch Highlands here, this is Lake Lucy Road. It goes right along here so they're on the north and south side. They feel that they are in a park deficient area and they are requesting that parkland be acquired in that area. The closest park to them is... .....", CA tape break occured at this point in staff's presentation.) Park and Recreati.on Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 27 ,..., Mady: I have a real problem there. I drove it today just to find out how far those people are from the property across to the park. It's approximately eight-tenth's of a mile for some of them and our standard is a half a mile. I'm personally probably about six-tenths of a mile from a park and I'm not park deficient... I don't think anybody can expect that everybody can be right next door to a park. As long as that's not a fully developed area, we will be able to address them in the future. These people bought their property knowing that there was no park, at least they should have known if they checked it out, that there was no park immediately adjacent to them. As long as I've been on the Commission, we don't go buy parkland for neighborhood parks, we get it as it develops and that area there, maybe it's not developing this year but it's all open area and will be developing and that's the best way of getting it. Otherwise, we're going to spend a lot of money to get 5 acres of land for a neighborhood that developed without it. By that standard, they don't acquire it. Boyt: Is Prince's property directly adjacent or is there some farmland? Sietsema: This whole block here... "'" Schroers: Also, there are trails on both sides of Lake Lucy Road that gives them pedestrian and bicycle access down to Curry Farm. What are they doing with all that? Mady: Sewer's going through. Sietsema: It's the Lake Ann Interceptor. Schroers: They have really cleared a large area. Mady: I guess on the issue, it seems to me that if, based on the standards that we have, that they are not park deficient, I think that we can recognize that the area is platted right now and when the next one comes in and we can purchase a park in there or we can get a park dedicated to us that will serve a major portion of Pheasant Hills and close that gap. Mady moved, Boyt seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission direct staff to go back to the individuals to inform them that under our standards, their area is not park deficient and tell them why. The Park and Recreation Commission does recognize that there is probably a need for a neighborhood park in that area and it's been our position in the past that we acquire that parkland as it's made available through development and recognize in the Comp Plan that that area should be served by a neighborhood park in the future and as that opportunity presents itself, it will be picked up but will not acquire parkland at ,...., this time. All voted in favor and motion carr ied. Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 28 Sietsema: Basically you're saying, you want me to go back to the residents and tell them that technically it's not a park deficient area, although we see the need arising and we will look at the next... ...."JIll" Mady: We will constantly be looking for a way of doing it but it's not the way we do it. We don't just go out and buy parkland. Boyt: We're not going to purchase two lots. They can do that through their Association. LAKE RILEY CHAIN OF LAKES IMPROVEMENT PROJECT. Sietsema: Do you want me to go through this again or you read it and you just want to ask questions or comments or whatever? Mady: I guess I'm familiar with it. What it looks like here is we need to spend $8,300.00 to get the ball moving on this thing and staff recommendation is that this is very important to the City and we should do it. It looks good. I know we definitely need it. Lake Lucy needs to be cleaned up. Lake Riley needs to be cleaned up badly. Lake Ann I think i.s in good shape. I'm not sure what Susan is like. Hoffman: Susan has rough fish. Schroers: When they say clean up, I guess I'd like that defined a littl~ better. Sietsema: It means fish kills, getting rid of all the rough fish. Hoffman: Fish barriers and shoals. Sietsema: Aeration systems. Hoffman: Stocking programs. Schroers: Anything about aquatic growths, weed harvesting, weed treatment or chemical treatment? Hoffman: If it would become necessary. Sietsema: And it is necessary. Mady: One of the things that the rough fish take care of, the lake bottom, over time takes and naturally fixes itself. Sietsema: It also involves upland draining. Chemicals from farmland draining, fertilizer and working on not only the drainage problems but educating the people that live around the lake that fertilizing their lawn every week is not good for your lake and that kind of thing. It involves the whole spectrum. They're looking at all facets of cleaning up these lakes including not just the fish but also the weeds and the whole thing. ...."", Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 29 ,,..... Schroers: I would like to somehow be able to discuss it and point out that at least in appearance, Lake Ann seems to be neat and clean and a great place to swim and people don't come out of there very often with swimmer's itch and these kinds of problems. I would not be in favor of anything that could contaminate or in anyway lessen the water quality of Lake Ann. Sietsema: That's a point very well taken and staff, myself, will take it into consideration when we're going through this process. Especially with the boat access on Lake Lucy. If it is absolutely impossible for us to get access on Lake Lucy, I don't know that DNR is going to hold up a million dollar project because of that one access on a 90 acre lake. They may swap on that but right now, I don't know them to be willing to do that. Schroers: Have you gone to that little creek there? Sietsema: Yes. Schroers: Would you personally like to see that dug out big enough to accomodate boat traffic? Sietsema: I don't think it's the optimal thing. ,..... Schroers: I really think by digging that down, all the loose sediment and things that are in there, the flow is from Lucy to Ann and it's running north to south there, and if you dredge it out deep enough that you're going to be able to get a boat through there and open it up, you're asking for a lot of that sediment from Lucy coming right down into Ann. Nothing's going to stop it and it's got to deteriorate the quality of the water. I don't see how it couldn't. If you look at the two lakes, they are two totally different lakes. Lake Ann is generally a hard bottom. Not particularly weedy or fertile lake and if you go into Lake Lucy, it is just a mudhole. Full of weeds. I just wouldn't want to see anything happen. Sietsema: I hear what you're saying. Mady moved, Schroers seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City of Chanhassen participate in the Riley-Purgatory- Bluff Creek Watershed District clean-up project and spend the $8,333.00 that's considered our share with the caution that the City of Chanhassen will participate fully in it. However, if we feel that there will be anything that will hurt Lake Ann in any way, shape or form, that the City will do everything in it's power to pullout of the project and stop the project. All voted in favor and motion carried. MONTHLY PARK DEDICATION FEE RECEIPTS. ,.... Sietsema: This is just for your information. If there are any questions? Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 30 ...." Mady: I like seeing this Lori and appreciate getting it at least. Sietsema: When I get them, you'll get them. UPDATE: COUNCIL SPECIAL MEETING. Sietsema: The special meeting was held to study the two issues that didn't pass on the referendum. What came out of the meeting was the forming of two new task forces. One to study the community center issue. To look for a new location for the community center and the trail task force would be, not to redefine the trails. It was more of getting the word out to the people. Getting it publicized. Getting the picture of the trail plan in the papers and out. It was more of a campaign whereas the community center task force was not only for the campaigning and selling the issue but also more study on a new location. We would like a commissioner or different commissioners on each of the task forces and maybe more than one on the trail task force because this group knows the trail plan. You're the ones that put it together. This is your baby. Mady: When the Council talked about this item, I stressed to all them that I was very concerned that if a new task force was formed on trails, that if they came in and started to second guess the trail plan or to determine what gets done when, that I'd be very much against it because we have a body here of seven people who are very knowledgeable on trails -' and put a lot of work into it. As a matter Qf fact, the trail plan has been worked on for the past 8 years and that we feel we have a very good plan. They reassured me that the new task force is simply going to be doing the campaign work. How to get the information out. How to hold meetings. Who to contact. I feel it's very important that this body take a very active stance on the trails and have as many commissioners as possible to work on that particular project. Myself, I prefer not working on that particular body because I will be putting my efforts back into the community center. However, if the body needs some help I will work on it but I'd just as soon ask the rest of you, if you've got the time, to try and participate in it. Sietsema: Again, I don't know if it just is starting now writing articles about the trail plan or what the different types of trails include. Maybe Ed could talk about the trails in his area and Mike could talk about the trails in his area. Then when it gets down a little closer to campaign time, closer to the referendum time, then you would be the ones that are at the community information meetings and organizing the telephone callers and that group would be the captains organizing all the people that are going to volunteer to help out with this thing. Mady: I'd like to see what happens on this whole campaign for both articles. The community center, the task force we formed, they're going to be looking at other sites and other ways of doing things and the money and the whole shot. I foresee them kind of being creating a plan and going public like in August to say okay, here's what we've got, tell us -' what you want and then we'll campaign but I don't think that's going to Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 31 """ happen with trails. I don't think it needs to happen with trails. Boyt: I think we need to get the public information needed to support it because people got very excited because they got misinformation. Sietsema: That's why I'm thinking about now, like in early summer, getting some articles out that are about, this is what we have, this is what we're proposing and just go area by area maybe or whatever. Mady: We do have a problem I just found out last night. The Villager wasn't going out to the Lake Minnewashta area up until late February. Sietsema: I didn't realize that. She said they went to every household. Hasek: The information that we talked about that I had no idea it was even out there. Boyt: The people with the 55317 zip codes. Sietsema: She gave me wrong information because I asked her. Mady: In the Minnewashta area they were asking about the article that appeared in the Star and Trib which didn't mentioned anything about a trail on that side of Lake Minnewashta. The trails that were talked ~ about were in central Chanhassen so that's why that area lost out there. Those people didn't even realize they were going to get anything. They thought it's just going to downtown Chanhassen, the heck with them. Sietsema: That all fits together because I did phone calling and I called people up there and they didn't even know there was a referendum. That makes a lot more sense. Boyt: They say it's going out to those people now but it's still not getting to people in Hesse Farms. Mady: Part of that may be a problem with Post Masters. Sietsema: The Sailor will be covering Chanhassen. They're putting out a Chanhassen edition starting May 1st so by the time this all gets rolling, they should be hitting people. The South Shore still has the Chanhassen route and they've been very, very good about covering Chanhassen news still, even though they're not the official newspaper so by the time this gets around, between the three of them, and we're just going to have to submit all of our letters and our articles to all three papers so we make sure everybody hears about it. As time goes on I learn more and more reasons why things failed. Hasek: This doesn't need anything right? ".... Sietsema: No, it's just to let you know and if you are interested in serving on the Commission, either one of the task forces, please let me know and I'll get you an application. Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 3~ Lynch: I'll do what I can on the trails. -' Boyt: So will I. UPDATE: RECREATION PROGRAMS. Hoffman: This is just an item for Lori's and your information on the adult winter recreational leagues that were formed this year. There is the need out there for them. Some of the people had a real problem with the facility that we had available, the elementary school but then again they insisted that they play and they continued to play up there. We played both basketball and volleyball. Basketball played Monday evenings and volleyball played Thursday and Friday evenings. They seemed to enjoy it. They voiced, we'd like to do it again next year. Can we get some space that's more like the gyms down at Chaska? If so, look into that. I have spoken to the people down there, both community ed who schedules time at the Jr. High School and then the athletic people down at the Sr. High School, schedule the time there. Tom Redman in Chaska Park and Rec has that placed booked solid with volleyball and basketball and then again, you get into the high school sports so trying to open up some space down there is just impossible so at this time expanding these leagues is a real difficult notion. It's just a struggle to keep them at the level that came out this year and played. We had 6 adult basketball teams playing and 10 co-ed volleyball teams play. ..."" Mady: What about Minnetonka West Jr. High? Hoffman: I haven't checked up there as of yet. That's a possibility. Sietsema: The problems we had in the past with them is that the community education books that one pretty solid. They have men's basketball and they have youth basketball and volleyball and they have other programs also so they utilize that gym for the people up in that area. Boyt: I'd like to see these sports self-supporting. Mady: I'd like to make a comment on fees. You're charging $25.00 which I think is great to kick this thing off to find out what interests were. I believe, I'm not positive, you guys need to find out what other cities are charging because I think the facility at the grade school is second rate. If the ceilings are too low, there's not enough space to do anything. I don't believe we should charge more than half of what like Eden prairie is charging for their leagues but we do need to get the fee up. $25.00 is just too low. Boyt: What we try to do is figure out what we've got, divide that by the number of teams so that we meet our costs. I don't really want to waste another $600.00 per season on sports. Mady: I had a couple other question I wanted to ask about. Sue pointed -,. out that Chaska is starting to develop a large block of land by Hesse Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 33 '" Farms. They're looking at putting one dinky little park down there. Boyt: The development is 340 acres and their Park and Rec Commission asked for 7.5 acres of parkland. Mady: I would like to see us as a commission, send a letter to the Chaska Park and Recreation people telling them we feel that they're park and recreation requirements are higher than what they're showing and we feel if they don't get their park and recreation requirements up, those people are going to spillover into our area and we just aren't able to handle them. We're concerned as a neighbor, as a cooperative neighbor that they're going to have a spillover and it's going to cause some problems for us. I'm interested in seeing that they receive some information from us that we're concerned that there's not enough park there. One other thing, when you put the listing of the new park commissioners, like the Council and the Planning Commissioners, they've got their phone numbers all listed. I don't know if you people want to be bothered but I think it'd be nice that when a listing is shown of park commissioners in the park section of the paper, and other commissioners contact them, our phone numbers should also be listed. Hasek: I would just as soon mine not be listed. I would just as soon that they would call me at City Hall and tell them they can get ahold of me through City Hall. '" Sietsema: So when they call me and ask how to get a hold of you. Hasek: They can call the city and ask for my number. I don't mind being listed but I don't want it in the phone book. Sietsema: So do you want me to give our your phone number then. Hasek: I don't mind you giving it out as long as the people call here. Sietsema: Our policy is not to give out work numbers but only home numbers. Hasek: That's fine. It's just a little bit more sincere. I know that they're interested and they're making an effort to get a hold of me. Otherwise it might be just some crackpot calling everybody just because it's easier. Mady: The way I look at it, it has to be a commission call one way or the other. Maybe we can talk about it at the next meeting. Put it on the agenda to be discussed. The last thing I have is the Legion ballfield. I don't see it being used. It's being rundown. I'd like to see the Legion allow us to maybe take over some of the responsibility because we're not meeting our Babe Ruth and Little League needs. Sietsema: They do use it. They have Legion ball and they also let the Babe Ruth play on it on the nights that Legion ball isn't being played. ,..... Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 34 Hoffman: They've taken some action last fall. They did some ~ improvements on it. They don't have the money to give it to the dugouts and so forth but they do play on Tuesdays and Thursdays down there and then they have their practice and they're also allowing now, Babe Ruth, just in the meeting previous to this one, they got a new coordinator and they play their games down there and have their practices down there so you should see that field used pretty extensively this year. Mady: It's just never been, every time I drive, I've can only think of a half a dozen times in the 5 years I've lived in this city, that I've seen a kid on that field. It stands open. That tells me the Little League kids could use it. Hoffman: It's got different baselines and different mound lengths than Little League. Mady: I'd like to see them allow the City, the CAA take over some of the use of that. Maybe they get first use with their schedule and then we'll fill in the rest of those times but right now as I see it, and maybe I'm wrong, but it looks like it's a hit and miss type of deal. It's only up to them to do everything so nothing gets done. Hoffman: Exactly what you said there is what it's scheduled to do this year so you should see an improvement up there on the useage of that field. Mady: It's a nice field, at least it could be a nice field until they -' move or rebuild or whatever, we should be utilizing it. It's really a community resource and I think they think it is but I think it could be improved. Hasek: Do we know what the status of the Legion? I heard that NSP was taking that piece of property back. Mady: No, NSP had a difficult time buying an easement for the power line. They were being real difficult in the way they wanted the easement but... I've been told by a couple legion members that they will, at some point in time, building a new legion building but where and how. Hasek: What I had heard was that the property actually belongs to NSP. Sietsema: A substantial amount is going to be eaten up with the TH 5 improvement because it is going to be expanded on the south side, or the latest word is anyway. That could change, and then they would like to rebuild their building. Hasek: Build it on the corner? Sietsema: I don't know if they're going to because, it's a valuable piece of property, they could get a lot of money for it there so if they got a good offer, they probably would sell it. I really don't know. ,."" Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 35 If""" Mady: One last item, the change to the capital improvement program, are they going to be our agenda next time?' Sietsema: Yes. They've been pulled twice, because I couldn't figure out how to get my new machine and Don was in the hospital. Lynch: I'd like to ask for a motion for a staff directive. I toured the Carver Beach trail and I'm over there quite often, and they've dumped two more loads of sand on that place. They continue to develop the beach. The two loads are up by the street. There are two dumptruck loads obstructing any possible trail at this point. That floating dock platform is pulled up on the beach on that site. There is a canoe and a boat. One on the trail further down in the woods towards Carver Beach, none of which are supposed to be there. Sietsema: Before you make a motion, can I make a comment? Maintenance staff put the sand there. I drove by one day last week and noticed the pile of sand. I checked with maintenance and the street department said that they replaced the sand that was washed away during the big storm last summer. Lynch: There's too much sand there. You can't have a trail. There is 2 feet of sand from last year over the top of the chips. You have to dig down in the sand there like I have to find where we had a trail. That's ~ not the most sand that's gone in there but right now there's way too much sand. ...they can get a cable on it now with a tow truck and pull it right up and haul it off because now they're using illegal lake use. It's on park property right now. Sietsema: So you want the boat removed and the raft removed and what was the third thing? Lynch: Well, the sand removed and I'd like to see them go in there with a backhoe and pull a lot of that sand out of there. It requires that they bank that, put some timbers in or whatever they have to do to keep that from falling over, that's a city road crew maintenance problem but I don't want it on a trail. I want the two boats that I saw and if there's any others out there in Carver Beach and the old access, I want them confiscated. They're illegal. They're not supposed to be there and then I want that boat platform pulled out. Now generally, they've gotten it out to the middle of the lake, it is difficult to get there. Staff would actually have to go out there on the lake and pull it in which would be an extremely difficult job. Sietsema: I checked with Scott Harr because I did talk to him about, there is another one on the other end too and I did talk to Scott Harr about it and explained to him that it wasn't supposed to be there. I'll check with what the status is and try to light a fire under him. Lynch: We tried it before and there's no way to identify it. In the past, if you know who's boat it is, I want them out of there so that's my ,..... Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 36 motion anyway. ....", Lynch moved, Mady seconded to direct staff, within the next two weeks, staff get the sand off of the trail on the Carver Beach and to remove the two boats and raft from the trail. All voted in favor and motion carried. Boyt: I don't think we should take excuses of wait until we find someplace else to put it because that's happened. There's Novak-Fleck sign on the parkland and I asked them if they'd move the Novak-Fleck sign. Well, we don't know where to move it so it's going to take a little while. There choise is either park property or their property and park property isn't an option. I think you should just get the boats out. Just take them. Sietsema: They did that with another last year that was left, chained to a tree down at the South Lotus Lake boat access and one of the park guys got a nice new boat. Boyt: I think it should be impounded and them put up for public auction. Mady: They should go to public auction. Sietsema: Yes, Jim knows what the legal thing to do is and they held it for a number of weeks and nobody claimed it and then they did whatever they were supposed to. ....", Mady: One last thing, do you want us to make a motion on the sign? Boyt: No. Mady: It's being handled? Boyt: Yes. Hasek: I've got one that's just a discussion item and that's all. We finally did get something done with our over 35 league. It took 5 or 6 votes I think it was but I think in 2 years we are going to have a legal over 35 league in the city and it's just going to be nice. I think there was item in that whole package that related to not going to state tournament if you got some sort of a penalty. Do you have that someplace? We should consider that too. A lot of cities will not allow you to get into the league the next year if you don't get your team in the state tournament. They just try and that's it. Hoffman: All those teams, all the 15 teams will have a team that is eligible to post season tournaments. Mady: Some of those teams just will refuse to go. They'll get the berth and then refuse to go. Don't have enough guys that get off of work or whatever it is. --' ,..... ,....., JI"""'., Park and Recreation Commission Meeting April 12, 1988 - Page 37 Hasek: That's what the other cities are saying is you get a berth, you send a team. If you don't send a team, you don't play in the league next year. Hoffman: Yes, because it takes away the opportunity for somebody else. Hasek moved, Mady seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Lori Sietsema Park and Recreation Coordinator Prepared by Nann Opheim