PRC 1988 05 10
~6
CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION
~. REGULAR MEETING
MAY 10, 1988
Chairman Mady called the meeting to order at 8:00 p.m..
MEMBERS PRESENT: Ed Hasek, Jim Mady, Larry Schroers, Curt Robinson and
Carol Watson
MEMBERS ABSENT: Sue Boyt and Mike Lynch
STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Recreation Supervisor
REVIEW VISIT TO CARVER BEACH PARK ALONG LOTUS TRAIL.
Mady: Todd, there's no action required at this time on Carver Beach?
We're pending some information from Roger Knutson, the City Attorney.
Robinson: What is that?
Mady: He's checking to the legality of having that private raft out in
front of the parkland.
,...,
Hoffman: On number 2 there Curt. It's got a little review paragraph on
each one. The swimming raft, the mini-beach area, general area and a
recommendation. On the swimming raft, we're waiting from Roger Knutson
for clarification. On the City's, what we can do about it. Actually the
Carver County Deputy were the ones that oversee that. The DNR does not
have any part in it.
Mady: From what I've seen down there, I think we need to corne up with a
plan. That whole linear park area. To me, after seeing how nice it is
down there, there's no reason for us to say let's take this out, put this
in. Let's kind of take a look at it and come up with a plan in the next
few few minutes. I'd like to see up at Carver Beach have the bollards
installed. Get the parking area marked off. It doesn't look like we had
very many problems last year. There's no reason that I can see to not go
forward with our plans to put the bollards in place, mark off the parking
area and make a little notice of what it is there.
Robinson: For the record you probably should indicate that we did get
some input from a gentleman who lived across from the old beach. He
approached us that we should do something. It's a darn nice park area and
we should do something. Put some money in there and let people park down
there. He had a suggestion or a couple possibilities of a fishing dock
and a canoe rack. I think his points were well made.
Mady: Did anybody get his name?
Hoffman: No. I didn't ask.
"....
Mady: He had some real good suggestions. He was in favor of parking
along one side, he suggested parking along one side of the road. Ask that
we try to clean up the park. It was nice hearing from him.
Park and Recreation Commission
May 10, 1988 - Page 2
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REVIEW SITE PLAN FOR ERSBO ADDITION.
Hoffman: This is a proposal for a subdivision of a 5 acre site into 5
single family lots. It's located south and adjacent to Lake Lucy Road
opposite the new Curry Farms development. The applicant is Richard Ersbo.
Present zoning, residential single family. It's 5 acres again and you can
see the adjacent zoning there. Existing parks currently serving this area
are Curry Farms Park which is under development at this time and Carver
Beach Playground which is existing. An on-street bike trail is located on
both sides of Lake Lucy Road abutting this proposal. The Comprehensive
Plan does not call for additional parkland in this area. Recommendation,
this is a small subdivision with lies within the service area of existing
parks and on-street trails exist along Lake Lucy Road. Therefore, it is
the recommendation of this office to accept park and trail dedication fees
in lieu of land and trail construction. With this map you can see exactly
what they're proposing. Lake Lucy Road, Curry Farms development is back
over in this area. The existing home and road comes in down here and the
existing home is in this area. What they are proposing is to subdivide
this whole acreage into 5 lots and put 4 new ones coming in with a
cul-de-sac. Lake Lucy Road has the on-street trail on both sides. Curry
Farms is over here and then Carver Beach Playground is over here.
Schroers: Would the access then be off of Lake Lucy Road or off of the
existing road?
.....,I
Hoffman: The access right here would be off of the existing right-of-way.
So the access to these homes would be off Lake Lucy.
Schroers: Okay, but it comes in along what would be the west side there
and then goes in?
Hoffman: Correct. It comes in and the existing road is shown here.
Hasek:
that?
Todd, what's the potential of any development happening south of
Is that one right on Lake Lucy?
Hoffman: No it's not.
Hasek: But there is land to the south of that?
Hoffman: I'm not sure if there's a blow-up of that area on there or not.
Yes, it shows it on there.
Hasek: There's potential that there could be development behind them
then?
Mady: Also, is that a pond or is that more of a slough right there?
Hoffman: It's a marshy area. It's not really a pond. Lowland area. It'
probably a foot to 2 feet deep at the deepest. -'
Hasek: What I'm thinking is the possibility that maybe at some point that
land behind there might be developed and this might become part of a loop
Park and Recreation Commission
May 10, 1988 - Page 3
.,-....
road that might go through there. Maybe there's a loop road that does
something like that. Maybe what we should do is take an easement along
one side or the other of that road.
Hoffman: If this has the potential of continuing through?
Hasek: Yes. Through and down and actually coming back onto Lake Lucy
Road at some point or over to Powers Blvd.. I don't know if it would ever
get through there but it might come back. I really believe that if it
ever did develop, it would probably go right back onto Lake Lucy Road to
the north so maybe it ought to be looked at with the potential of an
easement by staff on either one side or the other and I guess I'd like to
make a motion that staff take a closer look at the potential for
development of land surrounding this and the possibiljty of a tr~jl
easement along one side or the other of the north/south road into this
proj ect.
Hoffman: I do not have the information on the potential for addjtional
development there to the south.
Hasek: I think you can see though that there's a fairly substantial
amount of land that might want to be developed. He does show an access
going to his property and he may want, at some point in the future connect
~ to something else.
Hoffman: Yes, because it's kind of a dead-end piece there that you're
probably not going to get access off of Powers Blvd. real easily.
Mady: One of those lots is the lot that ...owns.
Schroers: They have a lot but I think that the property that I know that
Klingelhutz pointed out to me that he owned was much further down Lake
Lucy Road. In fact over towards CR 117 where they're proposing coming
through with that boat access. I just have a question, Ed did your
motion, to accept the recommendation as it is but then to add checking in
on the easement?
Hasek: I think rather than make a motion on the suggestions by staff, I
just simply said that maybe it needs to be looked at a little bit more
closely and it ought to come back before us. It might be something that
was skipped. If we take cash in lieu of and trails.
Schroers: That's what I was wondering. If you're directing staff to do
that then it's not written in the motion.
Hasek: Let's go with staff's recommendatjons and also to ask them to
investigate as indicated in the motion.
,...,
Hasek moved, Mady seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to accept park and trail dedication fees in lieu of parkland and
trail construction and directing staff to take a closer look at the
potential for development of land surrounding this subdivision and the
Park and Recreation Commission
May 10, 1988 - Page 4
-'
possibility of a trail easement along one side or the other of the
north/south road into this project. All voted in favor and motion
carried.
REVIEW SITE PLAN FOR DEVELOPMENT SITES LIMITED.
Hoffman: Item 4, a subdivision of 11 acres into 5 industrial lots. The
location of this one is west of and adjacent to Audubon Road and north of
the railroad tracks. Present zoning is A-2, Agricultural Estate and
Industrial Office Park acreage is 11.09 acres. Adjacent zoning and land
use is stated there. Existing parks, there are no parks in the immediate
area however, this area is served by Lake Ann and Lake Susan parks. Lake
Ann is real close and used quite extensively by the industrial park
already. Comprehensive Plan, the Comp Plan does not call for parks in
this area. The Comp Trail plan calls for an off-street trail along
Audubon Road. Background of this proposal, this proposed development lies
at the west end of the industrial park and is part of Zone 4 on the
recreation section in the Comprehensive Plan. Zone 4 calls for parkland
to serve the development needs of development taking place along TH 101
and around Lake Susan. As the needs of this area are being met with the
parkland dedication of Lake Susan Hills West and Chanhassen Hills,
parkland is not needed from the proposed Audubon West development. The
trail plan identifies a need for a trail along Audubon Road which we have-'
requested a trail easement along the west side from developments both
north and south of this proposal being the McGlynn development and then
the Graham property to the south. This alignment should be continued.
It's the recommendation of this office to accept park and trail dedication
fees in lieu of parkland and trail construction and to request a 20 foot
trail easement along the west side of Audubon Road.
Hasek moved, Schroers seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to accept park and trail dedication fees in lieu of parkland and
trail construction and to request a 20 foot trail easement along the west
side of Audubon Road. All voted in favor and motion carried.
REVIEW REQUEST TO RELOCATE TRAIL EASEMENT, HIDDEN VALLEY.
Hoffman: Recently the City was contacted by United Mortgage Corporation
requesting that the City consider realigning the trail easement through
the Hidden Valley development located just west of Chanhassen Estates
along the south side of Lake Drive East and the east side of TH 101. You
all know where this area is. The area down behind McDonalds. Over here
is Chanhassen Estates. The easement that is in question, originally the
trail was located along the utility easement. This would be Rice Marsh
Lake with all the wetland in this area. Those people came in requesting
that that trail easement be moved farther south to get it out of those -'
people's backyards as far as possible without trying to get into the wet
area. What Lori sent back to them was as long as we took that easement to
put the trail on there because it's already all platted, if you go ahead
Park and Recreation Commission
May 10, 1988 - Page 5
,.....
and do the work in getting that surveyed again, we'll take a look at it
and see if we'll accept it. As stated there, we had an opportunity to
walk the site. Found it acceptable where they made the realignment in
there. The new trail easement would be somewhat more meandering. Make a
more interesting trail and would not cut across the midsection of
backyards. As the proposed trail easement will maintain the intent of the
original alignment, it is equally developable for trail purposes and
remains 20 feet in width. It is the recommendation of this office to
approve this request. It should be noted, any costs incurred in the
recording of the new easement or vacating the original easement should be
the responsibility of united Mortgage Corporation, the company that is
requesting this change.
Mady: Are there any property owners currently? Has any development taken
place down there?
Hoffman: There's quite a few houses. Probably 5 or 6 of them that are in
the process of being built and a majority of them finished.
Mady: My only concern is that those people are fully instructed as to
what is taking place. Exactly where the easement is.
Robinson:
Did you walk that Todd?
,.....
Hoffman: Yes.
It's staked out there.
Robinson: Is there a possibility in later years that that would be under
water?
Hoffman: The trail where it is proposed to be moved?
Robinson: Yes.
Hoffman: It's not a great deal lower than where the easement is at this
time. The ground feels real solid. In a few areas where it is a little
softer, where the easement presently is located is not any higher. They
went ahead and dug the ponds back there when they put that development in
which the trail would be located along side if we move it down a little
farther to the south.
,
Schroers: Is there any nice natural areas there that is going to be
affected by the new realignment?
Hoffman: By moving it? No. Basically that's just a graded dirt area
that if you went out there you couldn't tell the difference between the
new and the old. It's just a graded backyard which is under erosion right
now so there's no natural area that's going to be affected there.
.~ Mady: Right now there's nobody living in those houses?
Hoffman: Yes, a few of those houses are occupied.
Hasek: Have the abutting homeowners been notified.
Park and Recreation Commission
May 10, 1988 - Page 6
...""
Mady: I can't see any reason why they'd be against it but...
Hoffman: No, I believe it's basically being represented by the people in
the Mortgage Company.
Mady: I would like to see United Mortgage contact those people making
sure they fully understand where it is and where it's being moved to.
Even though it's probably making it better for them, they still should be
made aware of it before it goes to Council.
Schroers moved, Robinson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to accept the realignment of the trail easement as proposed by
United Mortgage Corporation and agreed to by City Staff.
REQUEST TO ENDORSE TEEN DANCE AT FILLY'S NIGHT CLUB.
Hoffman: Lori received a letter from Jeffery Richards, Manager of
Chanhassen Bowl/Filly's Night Club which you can review on the back there.
What background we know on it, approximately a year ago John Door, the
owner, came to this City to the Public Safety Department. Said that he -'
had some problems there with things being going on that he did not want to
see go on so there's a cooperative effort going on between his
establishment and this City's Public Safety Department. That is still on
going. They believe they have a very good handle on some of the problems
that were going on over there but as it is, some delicate issues, Lori
feels uncomfortable endorsing this type of activity as a city commission.
As the City Park and Recreation department.
Mady: I commend John for attempting to do something in the City and I
think a teen dance on Sunday nights would probably really be, I know it's
been successful in other areas. Not just in the Minneapolis area but in a
lot of outlying areas. Various ballrooms have Sunday night teen dances.
There's no alcohol available. It's just basically for kids and it's a
nice opportunity.
Watson: What are the hours?
Hoffman: It's not stated in here.
Mady: The only concern I'd have is that maybe staff should contact the
other bars, the other night clubs listed and find out what problems they
have had. I agree with staff. I don't see ~ny reason for us to endorse
it or to lend our name to it. I think it's still a profit making venture
for them and I don't have any problems with it. I think it's a well run
establishment and they do a very good job. I don't know if it's proper
for us as a city to endorse it. -'
Watson: If we endorse it, would we be accepting any responsibility or
liability?
Park and Recreation Commission
May 10, 1988 - Page 7
,.....,
Hasek: I guess I'm not even really concerned if that's the case. It just
doesn't seem appropriate for a Commission, Park Board.
Watson: I don't think we're capable of endorsing anything.
Hoffman: We can put our name on anything.
Hasek: We can do anything we want to but it doesn't make any sense.
Schroers: I'd like to know how this got as far as Park and Rec to look
at? It seems like it's definitely off of our means.
Mady: I think what's happening is John and Filly's got a lot of bad
publicity in the past couple of months with the referendum issue and I
they're just looking for any help they can get. I don't think there's any
problems with that establishment. He's cleaned up a lot over the last
couple of years and they seem to have a very good handle on what's going
there but I just don't think it's appropriate for us to make an
endorsement.
,.....,
Hoffman: Larry, this attempts to go hand in hand with like teen centers
or drop-in centers which some Park and Recreation's do have in some
communities. We don't have anything like that in the Chanhassen area.
It's not something a Park and Recreation Department would do but it kind
of goes hand in hand with a few things that programming for this age group
which needs to be a little more creative to keep their interest.
Schroers: I think in view of that, my opinion on that would be, if they
need an endorsement or a vote of confidence from us or whatever in order
to get this program started, that I would probably be willing to support
it on an experimental one year trial thing and if there were problems and
such developing than I would say that we would want to say that it's not a
good idea.
Robinson: I guess I just feel that it's not a Park and Rec issue and I
would rather not comment on it.
Mady: Does anyone care to make a motion on it? I think John probably
will go forward with it.
Watson: He doesn't need our endorsement.
Robinson: I hope he does.
Watson: I hope he goes ahead and tries and sees how it works. I think
you're right, it could be really good. He's going to bring in another age
group of kids down there. We took a lot of shots during that referendum
.~ that, let's face it, that is no different than any other establishment of
that kind. It has inherent problems associated with it. It's no worse
than anyone elses.
Hoffman: I think probably what they were looking for, they realize too
Park and Recreation Commission
May 10, 1988 - Page 8
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what the damage they had and if they could in fact get a stamp of approval
from the City, it would just be another asset in their direction but it's
fine as is.
REVIEW GOOSE REMOVAL PROGRAM.
Robinson: On the goose removal, I didn't have a letter from Doctor.
Mady: None of us got the letter.
Robinson: I'd like to know what percentage are out of there. Did he
indicate that?
Hoffman: Lori indicated that there would be a letter and you do not have
one so. Yes, she has those figures. I don't have any figures for you
here tonight.
Hasek: Is it generally working? Is there any indication that it's
beginning to work?
Hoffman: It's a maintenance program but there is indication that it's
working and he has percentages of what geese have come back and what gees~
have stayed away but it would be an ongoing maintenance problem and an -'
ongoing cost that we would have to incur so you're going to take a look at
the long range future of geese in the metropolitan area and you're
probably looking at an annual cost if you want to keep this program going.
Hasek: Are the communities around us generally doing this?
Hoffman: A majority of them are not I believe.
Hasek: Are we getting their geese?
Hoffman: Not yet which Dr. Cooper says if those other communities would
go ahead and instate these program on, it would help us tremendously
because we do get some of the overflow from other communities and geese
move into our area.
Mady: Eden prairie did sign up last year.
Schroers: Also, there were some geese from our Hennepin parkland.
Hasek: I think it would be real derelcit, as long as we're only two years
into it. He wants it to be a four year program to do anything good.
Continue at least to the end of four years just to see what happens and
maybe we'll be encouraging other communities to join us.
Hasek moved, Robinson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission ~
recommend to approve the goose removal program for the 1988 season with an
estimated cost of $2,100.00 - a budgeted item. All voted in favor except
Carol Watson who opposed and the motion carried.
Park and Recreation Commission
May 10, 1988 - Page 9
,....,
Hoffman: Today I met with Mike Zinns from Carver County Master Gardeners
at the Arboretum. Two other people I met with there were Joan Abramson
and Dave Wagner. What they would like, they're willing to go ahead and
put forth the manpower to develop garden plot sites. Go ahead and plant
the plants there. There would be some minimal upkeep until they're going.
This would be annuals so I suppose it would be a one shot deal for this
summer and then if we wanted to develop it more in the future years we
could go ahead and do that. The City would have to go ahead and spend the
money purchasing those annuals. They would put them in. They would get
them started and then the City maintenance would water them if need be
during the summer. When I need to go back with them for is some site
locations. Three or four site locations that we would like to see that
happen this year within the next three weeks.
Hasek: Okay, what are you asking? They're going to establish some annual
gardens for us?
Hoffman: Some annual
they'll put them in.
city maintenance takes
that will be visible.
parks.
gardens. If the City will purchase those annuals,
Get them going each spring and then after that the
over. What we need is some nice sites in our parks
That would be beneficial but would enhance our
,....,
Schroers: The only question that I have there is, at what point does city
maintenance takes over. How much time are they going to have to spend on
them and do we have the manpower to deal with it?
Hoffman:
upon how
were real
summer.
We don't have a lot of extra manpower. It would be dependent
many seasonals Dale can get on for the summer and then again they
busy, even with the number of seasonals they can get during the
Hasek: Could we maybe approach a garden club or something to try and
maintain those for us?
Hoffman: That's where we went here is the Carver County Master Gardeners.
Watson: Dale Gregory's wife is a master garderner and Jean Wade is.
Hasek: They're starting it. They're not going to maintain it.
Watson: These people could maybe do some of the maintenance.
Hoffman: If they have the time to go ahead and maintain it.
Watson: We don't have a person who maintains the City Hall gardens. This
has got to be the lousiest looking piece of property in the City. It is
just terrible. There's garbage. Weeds. Dandilions. The grass should
~ have been mowed three weeks ago.
Hasek: I think Larry brings up a good point. Try to get some club or
senior citizen group or something interested in maybe taking care of it
and maybe get a competition going. I'd like to suggest a couple of
Park and Recreation Commission
May 10, 1988 - Page 10
......"
places. I think City Center Park. City Hall and I also think Lake Ann is
a prime location. I guess I would like to suggest that we have Mark
Koegler or someone with some kind of a general understanding about the
location and design of those things, take a look at some spots for us.
Robinson: You've got three weeks to get back to them?
Hoffman: Yes. They wanted to meet next week and take a look at some
sites, if we could come up with those this evening. Then later on this
week, they too, they have some expertise. I said we do not have the
expertise, our department does not for site location, development, etc..
They do have some of that. They'll take a look at it. They'll take some
pictures. They want to take some pictures of future sites which could be
developed in future years and take some measurements, specifications,
etc.. These people are excited about doing this type of thing but then
again they don't always have someplace to put it and if you're going to
buy them flowers and they're going to develop these sites, they're real
excited about doing that.
Mady: One other site would be South Lotus Lake boat launch. That needs
something badly there. It's just weeds growing up out of dirt. There's
nothing there. I imagine the developer will put some seed in there when
he graded it.
Robinson: I think they did last week.
..."",
Hoffman: Yes, Lori is working on that as an on-going, trying to get that
place.
Mady: It could use some sprucing up. A few daisies even. Do something
to that boat launch.
Watson: Eventually down by St. Hubert's and that Hertitage Park.
Eventually it would be nice to have something.
Hoffman: That will be developed. You'll see that yet this summer there.
Mady: They're supposed to start that yesterday.
Watson: They were digging around and stuff down there yesterday.
Schroers: I like the idea of the gardens and what I have a problem with
is the point at which maintenance takes over and I guess I'd have a
difficult time supporting that unless we talk to Dale and Dale said yes, I
think we can handle it or I'm going to have to have some help from
somewhere in order to do it but I wouldn't feel good about just dumping it
on him because as short as they are on manpower right now, I know that
they don't have the ability to do all the things that we want them to do
right now and it's a real frustrating situation to keep dumping extra
responsibilities on people when they can't keep up with what they have -'
right now. If that is the case, we need to look at beefing up the staff.
Mady: At least two more.
Park and Recreation Commission
May 10, 1988 - Page 11
,....
Schroers: We can't expect to have nice maintained areas with no people.
Mady: Do you need a motion?
Hoffman: Not necessarily but if Larry would like to see this contingent
upon Dale's approval, then we could go ahead. That could be a motion. We
could go ahead with that. If Dale would not approve it, then I would just
go back to these people and say we do not have the manpower to maintain
them.
Schroers: That seems logical to me.
Mady: You might be able to get a Boy Scout troop or Cub Scouts.
Watson: Or the senior citizens might have some people who would do it.
Robinson: I think staff should just pursue the maintenance. Like Larry
said, make sure that's not a problem for the City.
Schroers: If that is a problem, then I think we should look for other
areas. I'm not saying scrap the project if Dale says he can't do it but
you can start there.
,....
Hoffman: At a certain point it takes up a lot of our time to try and go
around and drum up these people to do these groups. If they'd do it for
one or two times, it really is a program that needs to get started.
Somebody needs to take hold of it and some community parks, they either
hire somebody who's real attached to those flowerbeds who comes back year
after year and does them, some elderly person or else there's a real
committed group. I think on any new project like this you're going to
incur some problems at the start.
Watson: Excelsior has that Men's Garden Club and that is the mostly
senior citizens there. They have those two gardens and they're just
beautiful. Just about every morning you see a couple of them out there.
It's a real project for them. There might be people available in the City
but we just don't know who they are that enjoy that.
Schroers: We could even advertise. If Maintenance tells us that they've
got a full load right now, we can put an ad in the paper or something and
try to get somebody to make some kind of commitment rather than talking to
somebody and they say oh yeah, I'll do it but wait I can't do it this
Saturday. All of a sudden you have flower gardens that aren't being taken
care of.
Mady moved, Watson seconded to recommend putting flower beds in the three
."..... proposed park areas pending si te selecti.on through Mark Koegler and
discussions with the maintenance staff as to whether or not it will create
a hardship for them. All voted in favor and motion carried.
Park and Recreation Commission
May 10, 1988 - Page 12
....."
Mady moved, Schroers seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor
and motion carried. The meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Lori Sietsema
Park and Rec Coordinator
Prepared by Nann Opheim
....."
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