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PRC 1988 06 14 If!"" II""" ,.... CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING JUNE 14, 1988 Chairman Mady called the meeting to order at 7:40 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jim Mady, Ed Hasek, Carol Watson, Larry Schroers, Mike Lynch and Sue Boyt MEMBERS ABSENT: Curt Robinson STAFF PRESENT: Lori Sietsema, Park and Rec Coordinator; Todd Hoffman, Recreational Supervisor; Mark Koegler and Dale Gregory APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Hasek moved, Mady seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated May 24, 1988. All voted in favor and the motion carried. REVISED PARKING PLAN FOR GREENWOOD SHORES. Hasek: Mark, is there anything different between this plan and that last one? The 8 1/2 by II? Mark Koegler: Let me cover that quickly. Not a great deal, no. We don't have an elaborate presentation because the only additions that have been put on here were the few items that specifically were requested at the last meeting which essentially were the abutting residences of three. Lori and I went out and we field taped those locations and then I verified those on half section aerial photos so those are quite close. They're not exact because they're not surveyed but they're close. The other item...since the print set that went out in the packet was the Commission had talked about some type of a walkway extension coming back from this point and coming up to Utica Lane. We have shown one manner in which that can be accomplished for your consideration this evening. One of the residents last time pointed out the question, the distance here between the bituminous path and the beach and Lori and I checked that and it was off by about 8 or 9 feet. It's been moved up so now it is in as accurate a location as we can get again, without having a survey. The parking plan itself remains unchanged. This was the scheme for anybody who wasn't here before. It looks at including the spaces up on the top area instead of the lower area. We had also talked about and looked at the berm and there was consideration by the Commission as to whether or not there was value to retain that. Our reaction after looking at that again in the field is that we will keep that there because I think it serves as a buffer to help mitigate the parking there but it did not preclude view of the parking spaces from this area where somebody might potentially pull in, observe they're full and than depart the area. So with those modifications, the plan and the location of the spaces is the same. The only additions are the items that I just noted. Hasek: When you were out there Mark, did you happen to notice where the location of the park sign was? I guess it's not so much that it's says it on the map. I wondered if you thought that perhaps it was a visual Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 2 --" barrier for access/egress. Mark Koegler: To be honest with you, we didn't specifically look at it when we were out there. Mady: We talked about doing the gravel in the bottom part of the existing parking area. I'm looking at all the rest of that gravel that exists there down to the lift station, the lift station that is in private beachlot that I belong to does not have gravel going to it. The City doesn't have to go and work on that thing, it's not that often. I'm wondering if it's possible to take all that gravel out of there and make it a green space. Are we going to be gaining anything by that or would the street department have a problem with that? Sietsema: Dale might be able to answer that better than I. Dale Gregory: utilities is down there just about every day. Mady: I know they look at it just about every day but they don't actually have to drive up to it. Dale Gregory: I really don't know how much maintenance they're doing or how often they're working on the lift station. Boyt: At our beachlot they drive down the hill and walk to get to it. ~. Mady: It would be about the same distance I think with ours. Hasek: Even if they do have to pull maintenance on it, do they have to go right up to it? Dale Gregory: Yes. They have to back their trucks right up to the lift station so they can pull the pumps. Hasek: What's the possibility of maybe lightly overlaying the gravel with top soil and seeding it and leaving the bed in place? Dale Gregory: With the gravel underneath you're not going to get very good growth in your grass. Hasek: I know. It's always a little spotty. Dale Gregory: And this year it would really be bad. As soon as it's dry it's going to dry up. Hasek: Have you ever tried that in the City? Mady: Another thing I was thinking, I would not go up extending the trail into the street. If we had all this extra gravel there, being used for that gravel... What would you use for underneath the path? If-, you have a paved path? Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 3 J!I""'" Mark Koegler: Class V. To answer your questions, presumably this also would take the gravel out completely. It hadn't been considered before and I think that's something ultimately we could refer to Jerry Boucher and see what his reaction was but there's no steep grade in there or -any reason they couldn't conceivably drive across turf areas. The concern obviously also is in the wintertime when they have to provide any maintenance to that and if so, what does that do to the grass. Will it get dug up? If they're willing to walk in just to check the lift station and for the very infrequent occasions they'd have to actually pull up to service it, I wouldn't think that could be any problem. Boyt: I think they plow all the way to ours. They plow the grass. Dale them up. they Gregory: During the wintertime they plow up to just about all of so when they're broke down they can go right to them and get them Otherwise, if they get a lot of snow, it takes a long time before can get them plowed out so they try to keep them open all the time. Boyt: It's never affected our grass. Mady: Dale, do we seed up here where the hockey rinks, the skating rink is every year? ~ Dale Gregory: We seed all of our family rinks every year. Mady: That would be a possibility. Mark Koegler: I think the main value to that would be returning the green space to the park more so than using the Class V. It mayor may not be suitable for use. Mady: I'm looking at green space in the park is all. Hasek: Do we want to take advantage of the possibility of talking to the maintenance or other people to see if we can... Mady: I think the discussion in making it green space, the problem is going to be whether or not the street department or maintenance department feels it's acceptable for them to get to. Sietsema: Your discussion will be reflected in the Minutes that will go along with your recommendation and I can ask Jerry Boucher and talk about that in my cover memo to Council as well. Mady: There's no reason for us to have a road going down into the park. As long as it's a park there I'd like to see green space. ",,-, Hasek: I guess my comments are that I think it accomodates what we had intended without disturbing the park...that it did before with the parking spaces in place. The site has been checked and rechecked and some of the items that were of concern to us before and I'd like to make a motion that we send this to Council for approval. Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 4 """"" Lynch: Is there identification on that sketch that we can refer to? sietsema: I'll have it dated. Mady: It's dated June 10th. Hasek: That one's revised. sietsema: I'll have it dated June 14th. Boyt: Do you know if they'll put, slow them up for this stop sign? Mady: Does this plan include the bollards? That's a gate post but that's not going to prevent cars from driving out over the gravel area. Sietsema: No, it doesn't. Do you want us to put the bollards on the plan? Mady: Yes. As long as we have the money available in the budget I'd like to see it done otherwise they'll just end up driving around it. Schroers: ...that requires lighting? Sietsema: There is a light down in the park. ....." Hasek: But it shines towards the beach. Schroers: I know where that light was. My question is, is there additional lighting that goes into the parking lot? Sietsema: Not automatically. If you want to include that in your recommenadtion, you could. Hasek: I guess I would just as soon the lighting stay out of it. All it does is just encourage people to stay and park later than they should anyways. Hasek moved, Lynch seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to approve the Parking Plan for Greenwood Shores dated June 14, 1988 with bollards and stop sign. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Sietsema: I will be scheduling this for the July 11th City Council meeting and I will be notifying everybody who signed up previously and was on that petition that you gave us and that is on tonight's sign up. REVIEW PARK MAINTENANCE STAFF NEEDS, DALE GREGORY. ...." Sietsema: I put for your review a memo that I received from Gary Warren on Friday after the packets were already out. It addresses some of the issues that I brought to his attention and I also had talked to him about Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 5 "...... your concern about enough maintenance staff. Dale's here to discuss any questions that you might have and let you know what his needs are. Gary indicated that your recommendation would be appreciated. Mady: Council approved our revised budget which included placing a trail along Laredo and Carver Beach Road. How do we stand on being able to get to that? Sietsema: Our first two priorities this summer were those two Lotus Lake parks. I believe Dale will be working on South Lotus now that North Lotus is pretty much in good shape. I would anticipate that the trails could come right after that. We have to figure out what the street people are doing as well because they're help in needed in putting in trails. Do you have any idea when a trail could be ready along Laredo? Dale Gregory: It's going to be a while. Jerry's got his guys so busy right now. I got them into North Lotus. Boyt: Like fall? Dale Gregory: It's so hard to say. It depends on weather. It depends on how much work they're got going now and like I say, right now they are busy. We pull both of the maintenance, heavy pushing operators into North Lotus Lake and we've got them there for just about 3 weeks and ~ Jerry wasn't too happy that I took those 2 guys for that long but it's going to be a while. I really couldn't say how long. It depends on how much work they've got. I did get one back into South Lotus Lake. He did a little bit of work in there today and I think he'll be back in there tomorrow to clean out the retention ponds so we can start working on those. Mady: I have a question Dale. On the trail on Kerber Blvd., driving by that, how long do you figure it will be before we're going to have to resurface that or sealcoat it? Dale Gregory: The one right alongside of Kerber? Mady: From the street anyway when you're driving by, it's starting to look pretty worn. Dale Gregory: You're looking at probably within the next year to two years. Mady: Will we be able to do that in-house? Dale Gregory: We don't even do the sealcoating of the roads anymore in house. Mady: When they go to do that in two years, let's include that on the bid. ,....., Dale Gregory: That's basically the best. That's what we did with Lake Ann Park a year or so ago. They just included it in a bid and had it Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 6 ......" resealed with their mat. Watson: The ones along Kerber now, is that been in a specifications for how often they have to be sealcoated? That hasn't been there that many years yet. Dale Gregory: The thing of it is you've got to watch them and as soon as they start cracking up and that, you want to seal them and that will keep the water and moisture from running into that. You can look at Lake Ann that was sealcoated I believe a year ago, a year or two years ago and that has got a lot of bad cracks on it. That park, after looking at an overlay, in the very near future before it's completely breaking up bad. Watson: Is there anything we can do to make those last longer? Dale Gregory: The trails aren't so bad because you don't have the heavy equipment on them. What hurt Lake Ann is all the construction in there. With the building of the boat landing where we started running building trucks in there and all this sort stuff and it just tore the heck out of that blacktop. I'm surprised that it held up as good as it did. Hasek: It's also on some pretty unstable soil. Dale Gregory: Right. It's got some spots that are really getting bad. ...-I Mady: Where do we stand on some maintenanc items such as totlot equipment and we've got some already sitting that needs installing. Dale Gregory: We've got two of them that were purchased and didn't get here until late last fall and we were out of help. Pete and I were back to ourselves again and we weren't able to get them in. They will basically be the first ones going in now. What's helped, they sent out Lori this year and we've got everything ordered for this year early so it should be getting here. In fact we've already picked up the border for all of these places. Basically schedule wise, I've got, in fact I've talked with Todd and we're working on getting the barbed wire and everything out of between Lake Ann and Greenwood Shores. I'd like to get that done first and then we'll basically be starting on the playgrounds and getting those in. I'll talk to Lori or Todd and see if they've got any preference on where they want to start with. Mady: I know we've got some that we'd like to see some things would be taken out and some repair. As far as I'm concerned, I guess I'd like to see those repairs being made first. There are some safety situations. Dale Gregory: We've got the one in the Estates. We'll probably just pull those because they've got plenty of other playground equipment there. Lake Ann down by the beach, the swings are going to be replaced. The ones that are there will hold up until the other ones get there so I hate to take those out because there is nothing else down there for them -' at that point but the ones like in the Estates where there is plenty of other equipment, there would be no problem. We could go in there first and pull those and at least get them out of there. Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 7 ,.... Mady: Teeter totters, we've got a couple of those sitting around. The totlot equipment up by the ball fields at Lake Ann, that needs to be screened off. Dale Gregory: It was worked on today. I had Dean up there today. He was working on that. Mady: How are they coming with the structure at Lake Ann? Have they poured the cement floor yet? Sietsema: What happened with that is I called up the Legion to see where they were at. They were going to have the interior completed by Memorial Day and the week before I called them to see where they were at and I don't think they really knew so I asked them if the City could just take over the project and complete it and I would get quotes and they could approve it and we would oversee it. Since that time they've had difficulty with the State with their pulltab business and they don't know if they're going to, right now they have no pulltab business for the last two weeks and they don't know if they're going to get it reinstated. If they don't, they can't expend any more money. The quotes came in at $10,000.00 to finish the interior. To pour the concrete, stub in for electrical and put up the walls and the counters and the roll-up doors ,.... and everything. It came to about $10,000.00 and they don't have the money on hand right now to pay for that and if their pulltab business isn't reinstated, they aren't going to have the money in the future. They are having an emergency meeting tonight to make a decision on how they want to handle this. If they're going to walk away from it and the City has to pick it up or what. I don't have any answers for you right now because they're meeting right now too to decide what they can do. Hopefully, I think what we could hope for is that they would be able to approve one of the quotes and add it to their bill. We would need the City to front them $10,000.00 more. They've already expended about $11,000.00 and we allowed them up to $15,000.00 but they've paid $7,000.00 in construction costs. Hasek: Will you pay back their front money? Sietsema: No. They were supposed to provide the labor, the volunteer labor to build the building and they decided that they couldn't get that done so they hired a firm to do it and those bills came in at about $7,000.00 so they paid those but they haven't paid for any of the materials yet. Boyt: So far it's cost us $18,000.00 and it's going to cost another $10,000.00. Sietsema: Right and to get electrical to it is another $10,000.00. ~ Dale Gregory: It's getting to be an awful expensive building for what you're getting. For a small building you're spending an awful lot of money. Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 8 ......" Watson: Considering we stood over there and nonchalantly walked around and asked, well heck we'll build another one right over there one of these days. Hasek: It should be able to be built for half of what we're going to spend for this silly thing. Watson: Obviously they're not going to be putting up several of these things. Hasek: Can I ask a question? How did this project begin? Did the Legion come to us with it? Sietsema: Yes. Hasek: Have they done this before to us? Started projects and not completed them? Sietsema: No. Hasek: This is the first time? Sietsema: Right. ......" Hasek: What is the reason that they've had such trouble with this particular one? Sietsema: As I understand it, Tom Klingelhutz was the commander when this all began and they started thinking about it in 1985. They came to the Park and Rec and to the Council and said, we have this pull tab business. If we don't spend the money on charity things, we lose the money but we would like to build a shelter because they at that time were doing the concessions on the 4th of July and they wanted to have tournaments out at the park and that kind of thing so they wanted to have a shelter out there that would accomodate concessions. They didn't have the money in their budget to go ahead and build it and buy all the materials so they came to the City and said, if you front us the money for the materials, we'll provide the labor. At that time they said the building would cost between $20,000.00 and $25,000.00. The City said we can only afford to give you $15,000.00. They said okay, that's fine. Well, Tom was no longer the commander by the time they got all that approval. I don't know if they were have legion wars or what but he dropped the project. He decided he didn't want to have anything to do with it and it fell to other people within the organization and I don't think there was really a leader, someone who was carrying the ball. I think everybody was kind of, it was like a hot potato within. Once they were committed, Tom bought all the materials, all the building materials and everything and then he decided he wasn't going to be involved in it anymore. He was down in Texas for 3 months and I' don't know if it was " business. I don't really know why and nobody else picked it up. A -' couple of times somebody has attempted to and that's when they decided to hire Bosser-Christianson to construct the building but at one time they had volunteers from the Fire Department and a lot of people willing to Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 9 "'" help but they never got it all together. Lynch: Once we were going to pick it up and they told us no. We're- going to get a handle on this and we're going to get it completed. Sietsema: Then last August Bosser-Christianson came in and said they were going to do it. Our building department said they had to have a structural engineer look at it and sign off on it. That took a while before they got someone hired to do that. They finally got their building permit and Bosser-Christianson didn't get out there until December to start building the thing. They finally finished it this spring and again, the Legion wanted to have it done so they could have a big Memorial service our there for Memorial Day and it never happened. I thought I would hurry up and take the ball and run with it and get it done by the 4th of July and now we're into money problems. So 3 years later we're still looking at an incomplete building. Boyt: Is the Rotary interested in taking this over? Sietsema: I don't know. I know that there is some money that's becoming available through the Lion's club has made a couple more donations and that money would be available. ~. Boyt: The Chaska? Sietsema: Yes. Boyt: I don't want to use the money for that. From the Lion's to cover up, to take care of... Sietsema: They did make a donation, it wasn't to the Park Department as I understand it. It was $7,000.00 that Don said that he would earmark for that project and he talked to the Lion's and they were interested in having it earmarked for that. I just got another donation to the Park and Rec Department for $4,100.00 so what we want to do with that donation we still have to decide. Hasek: How much of the cost of that structure that's there right now has been from... Sietsema: $7,500.00. They paid for the Bosser-Christianson bills which came to roughly $7,000.00 and last summer they made two months payments, the monthly payments of $250.00 and they made two payments last summer. So towards their bill they've paid $500.00. You can expect to see this on the next agenda. I don't know if I'll be able to come to you to get approval for quotes. I might have to just go to the Council so we can get this thing done but I will have something on the agenda to update you on what the latest is. """" Mady: This isn't the only group that's looking to get money out of our pockets. The Hockey Association owes $4,000.00 to the bank for putting in the lights for the little arena down behind the Dinner Theater and I've been approached to see if the City, the City has co-signed the note Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 10 ..."", at the bank and they haven't made a payment on that note yet outside of interest. Apparently the Hockey Association has changed and the current orgranization is instituting putting money into Chanhassen. There are more Chaska people involved or something. In any event, there are other people who can burn our donated funds. Sietsema: I haven't been formally approached on that yet. Mady: I'm surprised because I was about 2 or 3 weeks ago. Schroers: As far as we're sitting right now with that structure at Lake Ann, it would be unrealistic to hope to have that in operation before the 4th of July? Sietsema: ...surface so we can put up some tables in there and use it for concessions that way but there's no way that the concrete will probably even be poured. Mady: I wouldn't have any problem, if we could get a guy out there with a little Bobcat and just level it so they get a lot of those bumps out of there, we can live with it I guess for the next year and a half. By the 4th of July it would be nice to see that done. Dale Gregory: The crushed rock is already there. It's a matter of grading it up and we've held off in doing anything out there until the cement was there so we could take and grade it off nice. We can do the best we can right now and we'll have to redo it once the cement is in that's all. ..."", Mady: Because it looks like it's probably going to be a while. Boyt: So you and Dale have a list of this year's projects of everything to be accomplished with the staff that's available? Depending on the weather. Dale Gregory: We've gone through and basically I picked out the things that we felt that we could handle. You've got things on there like ice shelters and things like that... Sietsema: I haven't gone over with Dale the revised capital improvements. Ice shelters have been deleted. Boyt: One of our real high priorities is the Laredo trail before school. We'd like to, if it looks like your department will have trouble getting to it, we'd like to make a recommendation that you need extra help so you can get to that project. Dale Gregory: I guess I'm lost because I don't know what you want done on Laredo Trail. Sietsema: Along Laredo Drive. ..."", Mady: An off-street trail. Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 11 ~ Boyt: A sidewalk. Dale Gregory: From Laredo to? Boyt: Frontier Trail to West 78th Street. Mady: Basically from the Fire Station down on the west side. Dale Gregory: That's going to be a tough one for us to complete. Boyt: That's what we need to know. If it's not a project that you should be undertaking, than we need to be getting another source. Dale Gregory: Right, because something like that, it's a matter of we're going to have to get into the maintenance department again to pull their men for that. Boyt: Are they working on the downtown? ,.... Dale Gregory: No, they're working on their own streets and everything else and they've got their own projects that they've got to get finished. I've got about 4 of them blacktopping or different projects unless they've changed with Lori, we can get ready ourselves but again, we'll be calling in the maintenance department for blacktopping that to complete some of these projects. That one would be tough for us to get to this year. Like I say, with the five structures we've got to complete, the playground structures we have to complete. Boyt: Will you have time to do the playground structures? Do you need more part-time college help? Dale Gregory: Right now I think we're sitting pretty good. I've got two high school kids that just started last Friday and we picked up another CETA boy this week so we should be sitting pretty good. What I've got planned for, if we get back into the rainy season where we're cutting grass a lot, I'll be able to take one of the high school kids and the CETA boy and put them out for cutting all the grass and keep them going and then the rest of us can work on the projects. Boyt: Do you have that list too? The list of projects for this year? Sietsema: The revised? No I don't. I will be going over that with Dale. Boyt: One of them is building a basketball court, Carver Beach playground. Things like that. ~ Dale Gregory: We've got a basketball court too we've got to put back in in Chaparral now that they're through with the tennis courts. We'll have to decide when that's going in. Boyt: It says fencing around property? Is that for here? Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 12 ..."., Dale Gregory: That was one I talked to Lori to yesterday. We haven't decided how we're going to attack that one. I really don't know what we're going to do on that one. Boyt: You said space to drop sewer. Are they going to run the sewer... Mady: This would be on top. Boyt: The ballfield at South Lotus Lake. Sietsema: Wasn't that deleted? Boyt: South Lotus Lake, we talked about a ballfield. Dale Gregory: Nothing can get going on that until they've got a large pile of clay. That all has to be out of there and then you're getting back to the whole park is going to have to have a final grade done. Sietsema: I think that was taken out of the final revision. Dale Gregory: We're looking at quite a few large projects that they're going to take time. Where we're running into trouble too, I've already had trouble this year is with I've had two high school kids that can drive and I can send them out to go to jobs and I haven't had vehicles for them. I've got 2 pick-ups in the park department and I need them myself. I gave my pick-up to the kids today and the last two days so they can be out working in parks and I've driving around in the dump truck. We don't have the vehicles anymore. We're just out. It's really sad but even the maintenance department in the morning, when they get all their crew out on the job, every pick-up is gone and we don't have the vehicles anymore for summer help. ..."" Schroers: At one time we talked about a Cushman type vehicle for doing work in the park. Since the trail proposal was defeated, did that vehicle go out along with it? Sietsema: That was never put in any budget and for the amount of trails that we have. It was planned for when the trail system was really in place. Schroers: Do you have more of a need Dale for a regular pick-up truck or for like a working sized vehicle? Dale Gregory: I need a pick-up. I need a three-quarter ton pick-ups. Something I can hook up trailers to and send these guys out working in that. Boyt: One or 2. You couldn't get 2 but... ...", Dale Gregory: If I could 1 it would be great because I could put 2 guys together and they could go out and work and this type of thing. But like I say right now we're down in pick-ups. A Cushman would be fine staying Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 13 ,..., in the Lake Ann Park and when that expands and going to the neighboring parks real close to that but it isn't going to do me any good for hauling lawn mowers around and stuff like that. We're spread out so much in the City with our parks and that that we need the vehicles to get our equipment there. Schroers: I think that I'm probably sort of responsible for having you here tonight. It didn't appear to me that when we're sitting here making a lot of the plans for the parks in the City of Chanhassen and maybe not talking to you enough about whether or not you have enough help to get all this work done. I guess that's what I was wondering. I just wanted to, in looking at this memo from the Public Works Director, if you agree with that and if you feel that presently you have enough help or if, in your opinion you would like us to make a recommendation to Gary Warren to provide you with more help, be it full-time or seasonal. ,.... Dale Gregory: Right now for this year, like I say again, for the amount of people I've got and the equipment I've got, we'll be fine. with the 2 kids I've got and the summer help. As long as Jack's can hold up there, Jack Curtis basically takes care of Lake Ann for me all the time and Jack is, he's getting up there in age and I don't know how long Jack is going to keep cutting grass for us. But with the downtown corning in next year, I've been informed from Gary that that's going to be park too. That we are definitely going to have to look next year for a full-time person. Schroers: Knowing how things typically go, just using that structure at Lake Ann as an example, we expected that would have been operational a long, long time ago. I think that now is the time to start working on it. It takes a long time to get people hired. I know that and I think that we should probably be making a recommendation to start looking to adding staff. Sietsema: This is the right time to be doing it because we're going to be receiving our budget sheets for 1989 probably next week so your recommendation will be very timely. Mady: From what I'm hearing, I guess I'd be inclined to ask staff in putting their budget together to see if it's possible of adding a pick-up truck to the park equipment list for next year for just the current staff and then adding another full-time person with a vehicle also so he's not going to be short. There are a lot of little things that we'd like to do that we know that we can't get done. A lot of things seem to get, it always seems that our stuff because you have to give the street maintenance people so much and this is the busiest time for everybody and we like to see our stuff done right now. Well, we know that we can't but we know that it can get done while the kids can still utilize the equipment before winter sets in the better so I guess I'm kind of inclined to... ,..... Sietsema: The vehicles go as a recommendation to Gary Warren because all of the park maintenance equipment and staff is under public works so that should be included in your recommendation to Gary. Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 14 --' Boyt: Next year in our CIP we have some major projects that will take a lot of time. More than just one more person. Schroers: If we were to make up a recommendation right now that we look at acquiring a pick-up truck for the parks department as soon as possible and then start whatever process is necessary for hiring an additional full-time person for 1989 park season and whatever, if you think another vehicle is necessary at that time. Do you think that would be adequate? Dale Gregory: We're going to be looking at, not only the vehicle but we're also going to be looking at a lawn mower for sure too. We've got the 2 Toros right now. One is tied up strictly at Lake Ann just about all the time. The other one, one of our smaller mowers is out doing the other parks. We're going to add North Lotus Lake and we're going to add South Lotus Lake plus Curry Farms is coming in and we're definitely going to need another full time 72 inch Toro so we can send 2 of them out at a time. It's just getting to the point where, like I say with all these parks we're adding and it's not just 1 or 2 acres. We're talking 10-15 acres at a time we're adding. Schroers: Do you want to come up with a list of equipment and personnel that you think you would need full-time and part-time and give that to the Commission and then we'll make a recommendation off of that? -" Dale Gregory: We could do that and like I've been talking with Gary. We've been working together and we've been putting some of these projects together and trying to come up with how long we're talking about for doing all of these projects and basically seeing how much more help we're going to need. Lynch: If we can stage this Dale, if you can come up with something that says now we need this. When Curry Farms happens, when Lake Ann expansion happens, we're going to need this. When Lake Susan opens up, we're going to need. If we can get some of these things in a little easier feel for Gary and Don, if they've been told it's coming. Sietsema: Chanhassen Hills will probably be graded within the next year so that will be a park that we'll be looking to develop within a 1 to 2 year timeframe. Curry Farms will probably be developed next year. As Lake Susan Hills West develops, that's 36 more acres of active parkland there in the next 5 years. Mady: Do you ever need equipment such as, I'm sure you borrow from the street department like the Bobcat or tree spade or things like that? Dale Gregory: Basically we've got our own tree spade. The Bobcat, the maintenance department just bought a new Bobcat last year so we've got a little more flexibility. We've got one that we try to keep out at the park department. We've got our own Bobcat. Dump trucks and stuff like that, usually always the City we can borrow from them and get that type of stuff. -' Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 15 ,..., Schroers: In relation to your budget Lori, how soon do you have to have a recommendation? Sietsema: I recommend that we have a recommendation by next meeting. We could wait and have Dale make a list of what his needs are going to be looking at all the new parks and everything and get that back and make a recommendation off of that at the next meeting. Schroers: I think that makes a lot of sense because it's difficult to sit here and think of everything. Dale Gregory: I'm going to get a handle from Lori as to what you're all talking about. Sietsema: We'll hopefully be approving the 5 year capital improvement program and that will also give us a handle on what our needs are going to be and what projects we're anticipating in the next 5 years. You talked about a truck being purchased as soon as possible. We can make that recommendation. I doubt that there's going to be funds available in the 1988 budget to purchase a truck. You might know more about the public works budget that I don't know. I certainly wouldn't have in my budget an extra $10,000.00 or whatever you're talking about. ~. Schroers: We're talking about the money like the $4,100.00 that came from the Lion's and that sort of thing. It's in a different budget and that money can not be earmarked towards the purchase of a vehicle. Sietsema: No, that has to go to a capital improvement project. They want to see improvements in a park. Something like the bleachers or like the park shelter or like new tot lot equipment or something. Not maintenance. Hasek: So we're just going to have you and Dale put together a list. Why don't you try and put together your thoughts and ideas as to how that might be phased in... Mady: Any other thoughts? Boyt: Are we talking about Gary's letter? I have something about the Novak-Fleck. I would like to recommend that the City pull the housing permits if Novak-Fleck doesn't clean up instead of just badgering them. I think it's important that we take steps that have an impact on them. I didn't bring my pictures tonight of stuff that was down there. Schroers: I'll support that. I think that's almost standard operating procedure for construction companies and developers... If they don't have the time to clean-up... ~ Boyt moved, Schroers seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend pulling housing permits from Novak-Fleck if they do not take measures to clean up their construction debris. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 16 ...; REVIEW REVISED 5 YEAR CIP. Hasek: I have a quick question here. Herman Field. We have $38,000.00 for that, $35,000.00 of that is for this year. Do we know what's happening with that development and how things are shaking out and if the plans that we even proposed are going to happen? Sietsema: What happened with HSZ is that they put the cul-de-sac through the Gary Reed property and it ended in the middle of his property so it did not bring that street down to the corner of Herman Field. That leaves the park entrance back at Forest Avenue where it was so we can now proceed with revising the park plan now that we know that. Hasek: I was wondering if they had a trail easement or something that connects that cul-de-sac to the park. Sietsema: No. What we could do is retain... Hasek: There's a road easement in there right now. Sietsema: There's Oriole Lane is a street right-of-way in there and the residents there are now petitioning to vacate that and before that would happen I would hope that the Park and Rec Commission would recommend that we at least obtain a trail easement along that right-of-way to get down -' to the park. Mady: Should we do that tonight? sietsema: Sure. If you want to make a motion to that effect and to direct staff to go ahead with the revised plan. Mady moved, Boyt seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to obtain a trail easement along the Oriole Lane right-of-way to Herman Field Park and to direct staff to go ahead with the revised plan. All voted in favor and the motion carried. Boyt: We had talked about a revised master plan for City Center. that on here? Did you talk about that last time. A revised park We were talking about how we could make additional space up there redesigning where the ballfields are and the hockey rinks. Hasek: I think the problem with redesigning the ballfields is that if you relocate them, you've got two years without a ballfield. The question is can we afford that. Is plan? by Boyt: Why? Dale Gregory: If you can get them seeded in in the fall you're going be ~ working on them to seed them in in the fall, you should be able to use them the next summer pretty much so you're looking at about two years by Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 17 ,..... the time you tear it up and reseed it and leave it sit for the next year. Sietsema: That'd be ugly. We'd have people in here like crazy. Mady: Retaining the two ballfields where they exist and just adding to... Schroers: I thought our main focus on City Center was the hockey rinks. Mady: What I was talking about last time, here's how the park sits right now. We've got all this space in here. All this space over here. There's lee feet between this tennis court and the park boundary. Schroers: You're talking about a total redesign of the entire park? Mady: Yes. I want to put the community center on one. Hasek: So what are we talking about at the City Center? The possibility of looking at a design? Mady: I tell you, if we're serious about that we ought to get it to Mark and let him take a look at the topo and everything and see what's possible in there. Give him some direction... ,..... Lynch: The City Center was really not planned. It occurred over the years. Boyt: There's some real nice plantings out there. Hasek: Do you realize you could put all of this inside. You've got ball fields inside your buildings. A dome. Boyt: Speaking of domes...it looks a lot like the dome. It used to cover the Excelsior Merry-go-Round. Did you ever see that? It's in victoria. I think they decided to take it last night didn't they? The Council did. Sietsema: Yes, they allocated $le,000.00. Hasek: Now we've got a dome and a railroad depot. Dale Gregory: Have any of you had an opportunity to go look at this yet? Boyt: I did yesterday. I thought it would be nice for a farmer's market. I don't know where they'd put it. They talked about Lake Ann last night. ,....." ....... ... ......'::1......""'''''' v...... "'u"'" ""'Q.1 \1""'.....1 QU"'" ... w""',,"'" vu... ...U""'.."'" , .1vu v"", '::1v... .1.,1'0'0 windows in this thing. Everything is all windows. Lynch: You're looking at another Legion project. Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 18 ~ Schroers: They've had horses under it or something? Dale Gregory: Yes. They were using it kind of as riding arena out there. He used to have a merry-go-round in there at one time. Schroers: Right on the farm there? Dale Gregory: Originally when they moved it out there, it used to have a merry-go-round in it. I used to live just a quarter mile from there and he bought it and used it as a merry-go-round. Sietsema: We could even go out to that before the next meeting and look at it. We probably will have that on the agenda within the next two meetings to decide where we'd like to put it as long as the Council's decided we're going to have it. What they're talking about is taking the windows out and putting in some screen or some different things. Schroers: Contracting it out to someone and not sticking... Sietsema: Yes, it would definitely be contracted out. Hasek: There's a gentleman that owns 49 acres up by Herum that takes old barns and houses. We might give him a call find out exactly how we place these on the land. Sietsema: We might want to mention too that the Kerber barn issue isn't -' dead yet because Councilman Boyt loves barns and he'd like to see if we can't put it somewhere. They talked about that at the Council meeting last night too so Hamilton and Boyt want the barn. Hasek: I think this old building is really considered a legal collection. Boyt: If it's 25 years or older. Sietsema: The thing with the carosel building is we might be able to qualify for some historical money for refurbishing it but if we get that kind of a grant, there are certain stipulations on how you retain it's original flavor. A tape break occurred at this point in the meeting. Hasek: ...a park shelter, $199,999.99. Sietsema: That's the community park shelter with the boat rentals, concessions and I don't know if you remember the plan from last year but it's got the community room with the fireplace in the upstairs. Hasek: The land acquisition was the other question I had there. Sietsema: The land acquisition was... -' Hasek: In 91, yes. Park and Recreation Commission Meeting June 14, 1988 - Page 19 ,.... sietsema: Actually that could be moved to beyond because that was if the land all the way around the lake should become available so we have money. We can keep moving that back until it becomes available. Lynch: Lake Susan? Mady: Are we hoping to get a road next year? Sietsema: Yes. We're still waiting on Opus. There's another proposal in and we don't know who the company is but we're again in the running with Chaska for this corporation, whoever it is. They're being kind of hush hush about who the company is. We lost to Chaska on the IDS. If we would have gotten it than we would have had a road probably this year but if we get this one, they'll be putting in the rest of Lake Drive East. If the company does corne in, that gives us 2 1/2 acres extra at Lake Susan to move that boat access proposal to the east of the stand of trees down there. Mady: North Lotus Lake. I had a question on the boardwalk. Last week we were purchasing the boardwalks for the Estates... On the orange, can we wait until we get it, get it installed before we look at it... ~. Sietsema: Yes. Did we approve it for Chan Estates too? No. Just North Lotus because it's a lot further out at Chan Estates. Mady: South Lotus Lake. Didn't we talk about the fishing pier at South Lotus Lake? That it was going to be difficult to do one down there? Hoffman: South Lotus Lake? Mady: Or was it just the fact that we wouldn't be able to get it under a grant loan at South Lotus Lake? Hoffman: Parking availability. Space at South Lotus Lake. I don't know if you want to attract that many people. Where they're all going to park if'you're going to put that size of pier out there and how favorable they would look at, they don't like putting fishing piers, in part of their requirements they don't want to put fishing piers in a high activity area which they would consider a boat access. They probably would not. Sietsema: Just from what's been happening this year, I'd like us to not even consider the boat access portion as park. That's just boat access and not attract any other uses at this point. We had the first weekend it was open we had 125 boats launched in one day on South Lotus. Boyt: And I heard that the Sheriff's department had lost the people who patrol lakes. They quit. ~ Mad y : They were out there two weeks ago. Boyt: They weren't out this weekend. Park and Recreation Commission Meating June 14, 1988 - Page 20 ......",JJII Sietsema: They probably don't get out every weekend because they only had a couple guys for the whole County. I hadn't heard that they quit. Jim hasn't told me that but that doesn't mean that it isn't... Lynch: Were there any enforcement problems with that? Have there been any? Sietsema: Our parking has been pretty much, they are parking at the Apple Valley Redimix and at the Taco Shoppe and I don't know where else. They're not talking along the street too much because they are getting ticketed. We had a problem with people driving around the gate when it was closed to launch early, early in the morning or take their boat out late at night if they didn't get out in time. We only own about 15 feet on either side of the pavement so Bloomberg Companies put in a split rail fence and we'll see if that works. They may just take that down and drive through anyway. Hasek: Is 125 boats launched in one day create a problem on the lake? Sietsema: It's kind of a safety problem. I have a hunch that a lot of those boats might have been people launching for the first time of the season. But the next weekend we still had 75 people. Boyt: There's a lot of ignorance. People driving boats that don't know that you shouldn't drive your boat right next to a swimming area. As ~ close to the bouys as you can get. Hasek: It doesn't matter even if they do know. What is it supposed to be, 150 feet? Boyt: Yes. But they were pulling some water skiers right next to the beach. Hasek: We've got a floating dock out probably 125 feet and the skiers go between that dock and where the kids swim on Lake Minnewashta. You can't tell me that common sense doesn't tell you that that's inappropriate. It's not that they don't know. It's just that they really like it. Mady: Do you have a bouy? Hasek: No, but that's part of eventually... Mady: They $70.00 a piece. Hasek: If you do think there's a problem, you should get somebody out there to dock them and if there is a problem than maybe we can do something to limit the number of boats that go out. Sietsema: There's no way we can. Hasek: We could always go to the other park to see if we couldn't convince those people not to let them park there and eliminate some potential places to park. ...,; Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 22 '" Lynch: What's going to happen eventually is, and I don't know how long eventually is going to be but this is what I first felt for 10 or 15 years that the horsepower needs to be regulated on that lake. This is boats with... on the lake and it's awfully easy to say that the landing is the problem. It's not the landing that's the problem. It's the people that use it and have always used the lake. We've had two bad accidents out there. We have many inappropriate boats. We have some that are 150-190 horsepower on a 73 acre lake. This is like the bad corner in your neighborhood. We have to have a few more people killed there and then they will limit the horsepower. Boyt: We can make a recommendation to the Public Safety Commission that our lakes be patrolled more. Mady: That would be a good idea. I know it's going to be a very difficult thing to restrict horsepower on Lotus. Sietsema: What we could do is restrict it at certain times of the week or day. Sunday afternoons from 10:00 until 6:00. Boyt: The problem is you don't enforce... Sietsema: Exactly. It would be enforcing the speed limit, not the horse ""'" power. Lynch: The problem there, if all the boats were trailered in, that would be fine. You could do it in that manner but when the boats are already docked on the lake with your larger horsepower and you try to prevent them from pushing off to take you around the lake, you've got to have water patrol sitting there in right numbers... Boyt: They used to do that in Rhode Island on the highways. They'd sit there with 10 cars at one junction and they just grab every single car. If they do that once people are going to remember that. If they would patrol Lotus and Minnewashta thoroughly a couple of times, it would have an effect for a while. Lynch: I don't believe that. It's too easy to look out on that lake to see if they're there. You know whether they're there. r Mady: I know the problems are increasing and I know a lot of them are coming in through the access. Lots of the boats out there, the horse power is just getting, and the size of the boats coming on that lake is getting astronomical. It's just society in general, the people I know who own boats, they buy a new boat they always get a bigger one. They add 2 feet to it and they add about 50 horsepower. We're getting some boats out there that would be inappropriate for almost any lake outside of Minnetonka for this area. I'm very concerned. I think there are a number of people that live on the lake that are very concerned about the quality of the lake. I have a feeling that in two years we're going to send a recommendation to Council to restrict the horsepower on the lake. I don't know how the DNR's going to do that with the public access and all that stuff. Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 23 ......." sietsema: They will be all in favor of it as long as the homeowners, the riparian people have the same restrictions. Lynch: We talked about this years ago during the lake useage ordinance. What you can do and can't do and so forth. You can have any horsepower that you want. It can be sailing kind of lonely, you can say anybody coming through with an electric motor, like Lake Ann, they can use it there. They also... Mady: The only thing we need to talk about there, let's go on. Greenwood Shores. The land acquisition is take it when it becomes available for around Lake Ann. Boyt: Are we going to do the canoe launch? Sietsema: Yes. That may be an Eagle Scout project. Schroers: Actually that canoe launch is going to be directed towards Lake Lucy rather than Lake Ann. Sietsema: Right. That's the clearing out. Schroers: I think in conjunction with the parking lot that will... Mady: At Carver Beach, the $3,~~~.~~ for off-street parking. Have we determined where that's going to be? .......", Sietsema: No. Mady: Because I know right now when I go over to watch my daughter play ball, parking on that road and back out of the park, it's a very narrow street. Maybe as off-street putting a lane in for parallel parking. I don't know if that's public road there or if that's... Dale Gregory: It's public. Mady: Because it's so narrow. Hasek: I think parallel parking would be good, or a parking bay or something. Mady: Lotus Trail. Is this the trail and the beach? Sietsema: It's the linear strip all the way. It's all one long big park. Mady: Including the trail and the beach? Sietsema: The general improvement in 1989 was landscaping. Landscaping the old boat access area and also landscaping around the parking area. ~ We're going to be doing some this year but there was possibly more that we might want to do. The thing is there is potential Eagle Scout Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 24 JIll"'" projects within that park and I wanted to have some money in the budget to be able to do those without having a budget adjustment in the middle of the year. Hasek: When we were out there, didn't we notice that the old access, is that where people had been backing in and across the grass and stuff there? Hoffman: We've got reports on that activity also. Dale Gregory: There is a sign out there now that says the boat landing is closed and asking people to launch their boats at South Lotus Lake Boat Access. Mady: It's pretty good. You can do it with a 4-wheel drive if you really had your mind set on it. It's a challenge. Dale Gregory: They're wearing off the top a little bit. It was more of a berm and now it's getting a little bit rounded. Lynch: Do you have any nice rocks that you could put out there? ,..., Dale Gregory: I don't have any great big ones, no. Hoffman: That's a long strip too to cover. Boyt: Speaking of signage, we need signs that have just general information at all of them. No dogs. Is there liquor allowed? Hasek: I don't think it is, is it? Sietsema: It is allowed. No intoxicating liquor except malt beverages is the ordinance. Mady: If you're of age. Sietsema: I've got a memo coming on the next agenda that addresses some of those ordinance amendments that we've been talking about. Finally make a recommendation on those. Hasek: Are we addressing the glass? Sietsema: Yes. That's next. Mady: I spent 10 minutes picking up one shattered beer bottle. Schroers: We're having the same problem. "'"' Sietsema: It's unbelieveable this year. Boyt: It's a public safety thing too. Todd and I were both down at Lake Ann at different lunch times and the amount of liquor that's down there, the teenagers at lunch time. Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 25 ....."., sietsema: I don't know if it's going to decrease a little bit now that the senior parties are done with. I know that towards the last couple weeks of school... Boyt: ...knew where those parties are going to be and they stayed away from those parties. Sietsema: The Public Safety? Boyt: Yes. Sietsema: I tell you the Carver County Sheriff's department hasn't been as cooperative in our parks as we would have liked them to be. Lynch: Drinking in the parks has always concerned me. It's really impossible to police only malt beverages. Just to rib me, when I had my Little League team down there, we were scheduled for 2 to 4 on the field. At 3:30 the guys show up with the tackler in there saying let's have a party. So they're all there starting on the keg ahead of time. The boys felt that that kind of activity was not real conducive to family use of the park or young junior leagues at the park. My wife felt that if you're going to have beer there it should be on a license basis, that you're going to have to go down and you're going to have to get a permit. Without a permit you're going to get your butt arrested and hauled out of there. ..."., Sietsema: I'll add that to the list for next time because we will be talking about a number of other ordinance amendment things and I'll add that to the list for discussion at the next meeting. Mady: Park. area. Rice Marsh Lake and Chan Estates Park. A question on Chan Estates We have the road that goes down into the park and the parking Then there's a road that goes off that back around. Dale Gregory: That's the Metro Sewer Waste Commission. Sietsema: Did you want to put boardwalk in here for 1991 or something like that? Boyt: Yes. Lynch: We don't have a boardwalk down there. I've looked at that for a lot of years. I still concerned about safety of a boardwalk in that area with the kids. I really am. You go out on that soup and I'm an old duck hunter and I've portaged through enough muck in my life to know how dangerous it can be. That floating bog out-there can really be a trap. Sietsema: That's a good point. Lynch: You go and wade through it, you're finished unless you've got ~ somebody who's got the knowledge and ability to pull you out of there. It's worse than water. One little drowning kid and the next little Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 26 "'" drowning kid is going to go help him out and he goes down too. The floating bog is worse than that. Schroers: I went down in there and the landowner told me, when he asked who I was, he told me several times to stay out of there. ...try to do whatever they're going to do out there and he just never came back. He claims that it's quicksand. I personally have never seen any quicksand down there but I agree that it could be potentially a hazardous area. Lynch: The problem with a floating bog is that it has a generous number of root sections that form a Chinese bubble. You go through it, you can't get back up through it. If you go completely through it, you'll find that hole where he went down. I've gone through and the only thing that kept me from going all the way through was the canoe yoke. I was walking along and I stopped and all of a sudden barn, you break through and I grabbed the yoke right up to here... You can't get out of it yourself. You have to have somebody to come along and get you out of there. I pulled waist up boots off out hunting because my feet stuck down in that muck and pulled them both right out of the waist up. It's real scary stuff. Sietsema: You want to take out the boardwalk in Rice Marsh Lake? ~ Lynch: I think you'd have to be darn careful where you put it. Just to shoot out across Rice March Lake, like go over the lake with a long skinny floating trail, that's really asking for a neighborhood problem. Sietsema: So you don't want to put the boardwalk in there then? Lynch: If we want two and try a very down scaled boardwalk someplace like North Lotus Lake and see how it works and see what the complaints are and if the parents are worried about it. Hoffman: The purpose initially was to get people out there to drop in a canoe and go fishing there in the bummer? Is that what we're thinking? Sietsema: Yes. I won't put that in there. Mady: Bandimere Heights. Was there anything changed in Bandimere Heights? Bluff Creek. Hasek: Where's the land acquisition for that at? Just additional... Sietsema: That was to add land to either end to get down to the Minnesota Valley Wildlife Refuge and then up. Purchasing easements more than land acquisition. Boyt: Jim, when we do the basketball courts, I've had some parents ~ ~ay~ng, w~en we put up ~he normal height.basket~ will you also put up a Junlor helght for the klds because the 11ttle klds use. Sietsema: For what park? Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 27 ...-;' Boyt: They asked for Bandimere. I think at any of them. If you put one basket up at the junior size. Hoffman: Better make it strong. Hasek: That is my biggest concern right there because I get torn down. Every adult in town will be pulling that will be so much fun. I can dunk the ball in a 9 footer. can get my elbows into the thing. It's fun to do. You down and you pull on the basket. They'll be down on the you can... think they'll thing down. It An 8 footer I go up and jam it ground before Mady: If we do that we're going to have court or on the court stating that there City doesn't have the liability problem. jams the ball through and breaks his arm. to put a sign up right by the is no dunking. That way the The guy who goes up there and Hasek: I think I'm even more concerned about replacing the baskets all the time. I understand it would be nice to have them a little bit lower but I think we'd be asking for trouble if we started lowering baskets because I think they're just going to get torn apart. Lynch: Besides that, I started out at full height when I was 8 years old. Boyt: But you guys are 6 feet tall. ...."" Mady: Until I came here I never saw them at 8 feet tall. When I was a little kid, that's why I can't play basketball. Sietsema: The design of the stuff is, we just want to know if you want the money in there or not. Hasek: That's fine. I think really if you want to try that we should try it at 1 or 2 parks just to see. I guess I'd like to try it at 1 or 2 parks so we know that we're going to get some heavy use. Boyt: They have them at the school and one of them is a real mess because someone had broke it down. Hasek: I know for a fact, I have friends who used to have them for their kids and then moved them back up to 10 feet because they couldn't stand the neighborhood kids there. Boyt: Bandimere is a pretty small area. Pretty small park. Light use. Mady: We could try it. The cost to put a sucker up would be about a couple hundred dollars. Dale Gregory: If you put a decent backboard up and pole like we've got at Chaparral Park, you'll probably be looking at $600.00. ~ Sietsema: Were there any other changes on Minnewashta Heights then? Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 28 11"" Mady: I don't think so. Boyt: City Center Park we have some money set aside for totlot equipment next year. Chan Elementary is planning on putting another $10,000.00 towards totlot equipment with us. I'm going to contact Betsy Gross in District #112 and her job is to write up proposals for grants. I thought she could use our CIP to apply for a grant for matching funds for totlot equipment. Mady: One thing at City Center, once we get a park plan and we go through a major, we're not a major totlot setback for kids. We need to address the shade. It is barren out there. We've got to install some sizeable trees that we're going to have to go out and probably buy. Maybe some artificial shade. When I was up there 2 weeks ago Sunday, my daughter and a couple other kids, I thought they can go up there and play on the swings. After 5 minutes they were in the car it was so doggone hot up there and I'm still trucking around the park... Make a comment to that when we put playground equipment in. Having shade available. Sietsema: Do you want to put money for landscaping in here then? .". Mady: Yes. I'm not sure what those big trees cost. A 10 inch diameter tree or something. Hasek: You can't get them that big. Boyt: Halla Nursey donated two 10 inch diameter trees to our silent auction. I think they were $1,500.00 a piece but we sold them for $500.00 almost a piece and they donated more to us so they could sell more at $500.00 so they might be willing to work with us. Dale Gregory: Unless you get a good deal from Halla, Halla is one of your most expensive nurseries around. Boyt: For the publicity he was willing to... Dale Gregory: somewhere else Yes, but your $1,500.00 trees would probably have gone for. . . Boyt: $500.00? Mady: Shouldn't we put for like 1990 money for Curry Farms? Sietsema: Yes. Watson: That thing is going up fast. We're going to have kids from that area. ~ Boyt: Are we going to pass this onto Council? Sietsema: It goes into the Comprehensive Plan and it does need Council approval but it will go in as a whole package with the Comprehensive Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 29 Plan. -' Boyt moved, Mady seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend approval of the revised 5-Year Capital Improvement Program. All voted in favor and the motion carried. REVIEW REQUEST TO SEED HOCKEY RINKS. Boyt: Two more years? Hasek: You don't need two more years do you? Dale Gregory: Oh yes, at least. They were treated with... to keep the weeds down. Hasek: That's a 4 year deal? Dale Gregory: About 5. You're starting to get a little bit of weeds growing occasionally. Hasek: Are they still using it for soccer? Mady: It was so dusty. Dale Gregory: If you wanted to get it into grass and that, the ideal ~ thing would be to get rid of some of the clay that's in there and get in some decent dirt. Hasek: How would that affect the ice in the wintertime? , Dale Gregory: Grass? Hasek: No, if you changed the soil to accomodate grass. How would that affect the ice? Dale Gregory: It wouldn't be any different than any of the family rinks around. Like the family rink along side of it, that's just on a dirt base. Hasek: Do you get better quality ice on clay than you do on dirt? Dale Gregory: I don't think it makes a difference. It really doesn't. You see like Shorewood and some of the other ones, some of them in Chaska leaves theirs into grass. It takes them longer to get ice because of the grass and everything. Schroers: I think what's more important there is if you have the surface level so you don't have to come up with dirt... Dale Gregory: The bad part of this thing here is if we could have it as nice and level as we wanted for the freeze up and everything else and we -' started flooding it, after a while...boy we get those bumps and Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 30 ,..... everything. We don't know what to do with them. I don't know how to get rid of them. Mady: We'll just have to let nature take it's course and hopefully Dale can reduce the weeds in the park in both of those hockey rinks. Hasek: So really what we're looking at if we want to do that for soccer would be we'll have to treat it and just try and establish seed in there. My kids play in there and it's an ideal thing for kids. They don't have to chase that ball around. REVIEW CARVER BEACH PARK. Hasek: I guess the interesting thIng about this was that the main beach was approved by the Park and Recreation Commission in the mid-70's so it was established on approval. The only problem that I have with it is the way that it's acquired sand. It was put in there, it was my understanding the staff put it in there. Sietsema: Street maintenance. It wasn't for a drainage problem. It was because it was washed out during the big storm last year. The sand that was there was washed out so they just put more sand to replace it. ,..... Hasek: That's just in-house maintenance. If we have a problem with that park we shouldn't allow that to happen. Lynch: My problem with it was just like maintaining a private park. Hasek: It's not really. It's not really private. It's certainly less public than some of the other places but it's on the street. The access is right off the street. Hoffman: If you had parking there, there would be a continuous shore fishing there. Lynch: I've been told several times when I was over there that I was standing on private property. They tell people to split. There's no parking. There's no boat access and in view of the Council's recommendation that in order to maintain park property be accessible. There's never going to be anyplace to park there. I'd like to see this thing, if we heard from the residents out there and the letter from Lori May 31st that outlined a lot of the problems. I'd like to see those passed up to the Council. I'd like the Council's recommendation on what they would like to have done. If they say that okay, this is going to be a park. It's alright to have that park there. I don't think the Council is in a position where they can say well, in this instance we're going to let some of the citizens maintain a private beach on our property. The Council is going to have to either say the City is going to have a mini- ~ beach or the City is not going to have a beach on that property. Sietsema: They have said that they will. Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 31 Lynch: The Council? ....."" Sietsema: Yes. There's a recommendation of the Park and Recreation Commission back in the mid-70's to approve that mini-beach and that was approved by City Council. Lynch: So it is an official park property and officially to be used for that? Sietsema: Yes. Lynch: Okay. That I never knew. Sietsema: It was established and approved by the City. Lynch: than it Okay, then we'll say that we better sign and maintain it better is now. Boyt: We haven't treated it like it was our beach because I can remember standing there...up a ways. Mady: It's closer to them. Boyt: It's also at a bottleneck. The way the drivers go along that lake, they must be coming real close to that swimming beach. Sietsema: It's actually safe for swimming. ..."", Lynch: Our official swimming area should be moved to that position because of the lay of lake. It is dangerous where we maintain the present beach. I guess for now I would like if we could make a motion, I will make a motion that it has been brought to our attention that that is officially slated as a beach. That it be signed as a public beach and maintained as beach property in accordance with our park maintenance guidelines because now it looks shabby and I know now it's being used as a private beach and represented as such by people who live near there so I think we better bring it up to standard. Sietsema: I didn't get all that. Lynch: Bring it up to park standards with signing and maintenance. Boyt: And bouys. Lynch: Anything to do with normal maintenance. Mady: I'd like to see the Council allow us to open up the parking on that street on the lake side or at least 4 parallel parking spots with proper signage on that street. We talked with one of the neighbors there. He indicated he would have no problems with parking on that street there because people are doing it anyway. This way they can do it legally and utilize it. ..."", Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 32 ,.... Watson: If you can park at Greenwood Shores Park, you should be able to park at here. I maintain that these people aren't going to be real pleased that there's suddenly going to be a swimming beach. Mady: This is true but we need to address the problems with the boats being stored on that park property. The reason it's such an old problem is because it's now added to the beach. Sietsema: It has but it's like the minute you turn around, you turn your back, they know that you're going to be gone for a couple of weeks and they'll put their boat back there. Mady: What you do is you confiscate their boat. We've got a request somebody who wants to put a boat down there at that lake and we've got to tell him no, you can't do it. Why can't I do it, you've got 4 of them sitting down here now. We've got to clean it up. This city's always been kind of lax in their enforcement. Now they're starting to get a little tougher but we need to get tough on everybody. If you've got the law, you've got to enforce it. Just because you live across the street from it doesn't mean you get to go by a different set of rules than somebody who lives down on Chan Estates. Watson: What constitutes having a boat on a public park? As long as it's out in the water a ways it's alright? ,...., Lynch: It can't be on the parkland in excess of 24 hours. Watson: As long as it's completely in the water it's alright. Lynch: That's what we're being told. Sietsema: The boat that's moored there on the very, very northern end, there's nothing we can do about it. There's nothing we can do about that raft because we have nothing on the books that prohibits mooring a boat or a raft out from park property. That's on the memo... Mady: I tell you what, when we go to bouy that, putting bouys out there, I'm going to make part of the amendment of the ordinance is we're not going to allow people to put anything out from park property. To me putting a raft out on a public beach is no different than somebody else coming in and deciding to put their own play structure in a city park and saying that's theirs. You just don't do those things because once it's there, the City has the liability. That's it. It's ours. Sietsema: It's on the list for the park amendment issues for next time. Lynch: Okay, I made a motion, Carol seconded it that we add four parking spots. Mady: Signed off-street parking. '" Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 33 Lynch moved, Watson seconded that the park along Lotus Trail at Carver ~ Beach be brought up to park maintenance standards with four parking spaces, proper signage and swimming bouys. All voted in favor and the motion carried. REQUEST TO REMOVE SEAWEED AND WATER LILIES AT CARVER BEACH. Mady: Lori, did you ever find out what part of the lake this was? Sietsema: It is at the Carver Beach. The designated beach. The main Carver Beach. There are lilies that are encroaching. Mady: Are they lilies or are they those... Sietsema: I don't know. Mady: I do know that I don't want to see us do too much weeds. There are a lot of residents around that lake that if you start removing vegetation from the shoreline, they're going to be real... Lynch: Do you have to have DNR approval? Sietsema: You have to have a DNR permit and there is a cost involved in having the weeds removed. I still don't know what that cost is. Schroers: I have some personal expertise in that. We hire every year a private company to come in and remove weeds at our park and it's very expensive. It's time consuming. There are a number of problems involved with it. Their equipment is very large and very bulky. They have to have an adequate place to load it and unload a very good launch facility. They need a place to discard the material after it's harvested and that stuff gets rank. ....."" Sietsema: There would be no way they would be able to get their equipment down that hill then to Carver Beach. Schroers: Besides being expensive, it's not 100% effective. They don't get all the weeds. Propelling their machines through the water creates a wake out in front which pushes some of the weeds away from their cutters so it's difficult. They do get a majority of it but it's lot like mowing your yard. It comes back. Not quite as bad but it does come back. Hasek: Don't they only go out 4 feet or something too? Schroers: Yes, 4 or 5 feet is probably as far down as you can do it and the main reason that we do it is to eliminate swimmers itch because the swimmers itch actually comes from the snails and the snails live underneath the weeds. They remove the weeds and that eliminates the environment for the snails and eliminates the swimmers itch. Mady: How extensive is the problem? I've seen a few weeds and it's kind-' of bothersome when you walk out or is it choking the beahc out? Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 34 ,..., Sietsema: I know that this is all she wrote. Please remove seaweed and lily pads from public swimming access on Lotus Lake off of Carver Beach Road. Over the past years it has always been free of such particals.but since people are back swimming they've noticed the seaweed. It would be a great help and make swimming there much more enjoyable. That's all I know. Schroers: It's roaming vegetation. It's not seaweed that's floating in that's been cut up by motors. Mady: I know from my experience on the lake it's a bad year for them. The water got warm real fast. The lake levels are down. You didn't have a lot of snow cover so the lake vegetation was going earlier so light penetration was in there. The weeds are growing fast here but I know swimming in the lake and walking through the weeds is a problem. Sietsema: The other thing is that the lake is so far down you're a lot further out than you used to be. Where the swimming area is, where they had the weeds controlled, is now swimming out further. At my folks house, is the same thing. I said morn you've got so many weeds this year. What's the problem and she said I don't know. We've never had this many weeds and the thing is the lake is down 8 feet. We used to swim where there is all this nice sandy open space. We're out in the weeds that we've never been able to touch bottom before. ,...., Schroers: The other thing with the weed harvester is that they are presently in very high demand and to be able to call them up and have them corne over and take care of your weed problem, you'll probably be waiting for months. Sietsema: The recommendation was to wait a year and see if the swimmers don't, if you do have a lot of swimming and a lot of people swimming, that sometimes will take care of a small problem. And if it doesn't, then maybe put some on the end of the budget for next year. Mady: ...a policy of ours to see how the lake handles it. If the lake level comes up. Hasek: tonight? Is there anything that's on this that's absolutely mandatory for Do we have to finish these up? Sietsema: I need a schedule for City Council meetings. SITE PLAN REVIEW: CHES MAR FARMS. ,...., Sietsema: This is the proposal being proposed by Lotus Realty, Brad Johnson. It's located just off of TH 41 about a quarter mile north of TH 5. There are no parks in the area currently servicing the area but it is a rural part of the City and it's not a high priority for parkland. The trail plan calls for trails along TH 41. You can see in the staff report, it's pretty short and the recommendation is to request that Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 35 ...."." payment of park dedication fees be requested in lieu of parkland and a 20 foot trail easement along TH 41 with the trail fees requested instead of trail construction. Hasek: This is not being affected by what we're proposing along the south side of Lake Minnewashta is it? The trail through that new development that's down there. Hoping to tie in... You know when we talked about trails. Sietsema: It's south. Hasek: The question is, is the trail go through or does it go up to the Regional Park? Sietsema: We don't have anything going through. The trail goes through the development to the south and then up to the little Tanadoona Drive and out to TH 41. Watson: So you pick up there at TH 41. Sietsema: It's just a small section along TH 41. Mady: There's not a lot of space for us to do much. You've got a park on one side and a camp on the other. ......", Sietsema: This area here, this Outlot A, they are proposing as a recreational area. I think they're hoping to get a beach10t to it. Mady moved, Hasek seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend payment of the park dedication fees in lieu of park land and to request a 20 foot trail easement along Highway 41 and request payment of the trail fees in lieu of trail construction for Ches Mar Farms. All voted in favor and the motion carried. SITE PLAN REVIEW: HIDDEN VALLEY. Sietsema: This proposal lies on the north side of Lake Drive East just east of Q-Superette. It's zoned business neighborhood. The neighborhood in this area is served by Rice Marsh Lake Park and the sidewalk is already in place along Lake Drive East. Due to the size and the nature of the development, staff is recommending to accept park and trail dedication fees in lieu of parkland and trail construction. Boyt: Do they pay trail dedication fees if there's already a trail existing? Sietsema: Yes. ......" Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 36 ,....., Hasek moved, Watson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to accept park and trail dedication fees in lieu of parkland and trail construction for Hidden Valley. All voted in favor and the motion carried. PARK NAMING CONTEST - WEEKLY FEATURE PARK. Mady: This is real quick. There is no handout. I called Lori about 2 weeks ago. I drove by the park that exists next to DataServ. No one knows there's no sign. There exists right now a road, no park benches or picnic tables or anything but there is a road there and I believe there are 2 swings. It's mowed. It's a nice looking spot. It's not real big. We don't have a name for that park. Sietsema: It used to be the sewage treatment plant site. ,.... Mady: No one knows it exists. We need to name that park so we have something to go by. Maybe what we need to do is get a whole publicity thing going with the Chanhassen villager and see if maybe she would be willing to go in every week or every other week and write a little blurb on a particular park. This week they're going to talk about Bluff Creek. Next week Chan Estates and work with staff and find out about them and get some information into the hands of the public. In line with that go with a name the park contest of some sorts and start doing some things for publicity. I don't need a motion but maybe just mention it to Mary and see if she has any interest in doing that. Sietsema: I did talk to her about the weekly feature and she didn't know. . . Mady: If she could give us a couple of columns every couple weeks. Watson: Especially right now. Sietsema: If there's an event tied in with it. If there's some development going on in the park or there's something happening in the park, she said that would be fine but to just say here's the park of the week and it's got this, this and this located there. She said no. She didn't actually say it in those words. ESTABLISH COMMISSION SCHEDULE TO CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS. July 11 July 25 Aug. 8 Aug. 22 Sept.12 Sept.26 - Ed Hasek - Sue Boyt - Jim Mady - Carol Watson - Larry Schroers - Curt Robinson ,-..- Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 37 -.-". Sietsema: If I could just over a couple things that I handed out. The referendum related authorizations. Engineering will be proceeding with getting plans and specifications for Lake Ann Park expansion. We hope to be doing grading this fall. Hasek: That's another park that's not going to be ready for at least two years, maybe three? Sietsema: If we get going this fall than we should be able to get it done next year and maybe have it done by 1990. Hasek: But it won't be ready for the season anyway. Sietsema: No, I don't think we'll be able to play on it that first year. The way it sounds. The other big thing on that was that the community center task force will not be because as we told everyone during the referendum process, it was a one time deal. We aren't able to afford a community center and after the little auditing business and Don's gone through all the finances, we don't have enough money to put a community center anywhere else so we'll be contacting the people who wanted to be on... He said that we should be able to afford the trails so we're still planning to go ahead with the trails on the November ballot. I will be forming that task force. There were about 5 people that were interested in being on that. ......., Schroers: I think we should form a task force of those people that said we could afford to build one out at Lake Ann and ... Sietsema: The other thing was that the chain of lakes clean-up project. The City Council did commit to that. I put that in front of you too. Making a commitment and if you read through there, that outlines, specifically says that the Park and Recreation Commission will be the lead agency in holding the public hearings for these boat accesses in the next couple years so just keep in mind that that may require some extra meetings. That may require some meetings that are dedicated solely to that topic. Especially in Lake Lucy. Mady: Are you going to start then looking at Lake Lucy and kind of figure out how we do it? Sietsema: I have been. Mady: Is there anything we should know about the 4th of July celebration? Anything that we'll be asked to do? Sietsema: Yes. Just a minute. Boyt: I've been talking to people about it because...and they don't want to be in the celebration. Mady: On all of that asphalt? --' Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 38 I"""" Boyt: Yes. Are you going to tak~ a family of kids up there and sit on the asphalt and watch the fireworks? No. They'd rather not go. They don't want to go. There's no place for the kids. They don't want to sit on the asphalt. They can bring their lawn chairs and sit on those. It doesn't appeal to them. I talked to Craig Westerman who owns a business in town. He says he wasn't interested... I was trying to get people to work up there and when they find out where it is, they're not interested anymore. Since we're asked to be a part of it, I think we should have some input. Sietsema: The reason that it is where it is is because the HRA is going to be involved and a good portion of what goes on on that night, they're having their downtown lighting ceremony so similar we had the ground breaking last year. They are going to have the free hot dogs again this year and that whole bit so they thought for the lighting ceremony, instead of having people being moved allover the City, they wanted to have it all downtown so they could flip the big imaginary switch and all the new lights downtown go on and that kind of thing. That was the reason why that spot was chosen. Boyt: I know it's the HRA and lighting the downtown lights but I think it's going to hurt the 4th of July celebration. I'd like to see it back up behind City Hall. ~. Sietsema: We haven't got a place to shoot fireworks. Boyt: You can shoot them off the same place you're going to shoot them off here. You can shoot them off ~ight back over here and watch them from the lawn up here. There's nothing back there. Schroers: What would be wrong with having that part of it down at Lake Ann and then just having... Mady: The fireworks? Schroers: The fireworks and the dance and the whole program down there and then have the lighting ceremony up here. Sietsema: It's a matter of shuttling people back and forth and the traffic and what not. The other thing about having everything out at Lake Ann Park is that the traffic. Where are we going to park cars and then once the whole thing's over, getting cars out of there onto TH 5. Directing traffic in the middle of the night like that is a dangerous situation. We're going to have to be looking at Lake Ann as our future spot for the whole thing because we're running out of places elsewhere where we can shoot off the fireworks. It's getting to the point where... Schroers: Aesthetically it would certainly be the nicest spot. ".... Sietsema: I agree with that and I agree, I have the same arguments on the downtown. Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 39 """'*"" Schroers: It's kind of absurb that we can't use our main park to have our 4th of July celebration. Boyt: I think it is our own celebration too. It's park's staff that organizes most of this except for the free hot dogs and the free food and that's HRA. Otherwise we do most of it. We do the band. We do the organizing of the games that are played. Watson: I don't think we're talking about the same old people. When you saw the people that actually went to that ceremony at the 4th of July celebration last year, the people had their kids on the grass and just have a picnic and just be a part of the City's celebration aren't necessarily all that fascinated with watching the lights on the main street of Chan go on. Maybe at a separate time maybe but I don't know that it's necessarily going to be fitting for now. Schroers: They're capitalizing on an event. Boyt: They are. They're capitalizing on our event. Schroers: I guess it's reasonable but it's really too bad. Mady: They're trying to build some interest in downtown because there have been so many people that have had misconceptions. -' Hasek: Exactly. If you kill what we've been trying to establish as the main event related to the City by putting it on tar and everybody is going to say, I'll pass on that and go next year. Boyt: They know they had a good time last year and the people are thinking that it's going to be the same this year. When I talk to neighbors and people at the beach and I say it's going to be up here, oh. They won't go. They'll go to another place. Watson: When you're up here you're not close to the main street. You don't have to watch your kids as closely. They can get a few feet away from you without getting run over. Hasek: I guess I'd like, I think all of us here would like to be able to see it moved up here if it's at all possible to do that. I don't know if there's some people you can talk to and get it... Sietsema: Everything went in the paper and the paper comes out tomorrow. Boyt: Tonight's the dealine. Tuesday night. Hoffman: There's a long string of publicity items that are out there that are publicizing it as downtown. Sietsema: The flyers are printed up. Hoffman: It was a long battle among staff on where to put this thing. ....,I Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 40 ;/""" Schroers: I think we should get out some publicity that says ha, ha just kidding. Hasek: Two things. Can we keep it in mind next year that it's ridiculous to have all this grass around and we're going to... Secondly, it would seem to me like we still only have one main access to Lake Ann and if you think of doing major events like this, we better think about separating traffic. Sietsema: The plan is to move the entrance for Lake Ann. Hasek: You're going to move it but if you're going to get people in and out of there, you're going to have to have more than just a little street that you've got. I think the thing to do is to have two access points. One for an event like this where you can separate traffic eastbound on end and westbound on the other way. Watson: When Eckankar develops, there might be a possibility. Sietsema: It might never. Watson: That's true but... Sietsema: My point is, if we're going to wait for Eckankar, we could be ,~ waiting 25 years. They're not selling. They were approached and they aren't going to sell. They have no plans to develop in the near future so we can't really count on them. Mady: Will you be asking Commissioners to participate in anything? Sietsema: Yes. Hoffman: If there's anything on there that appeals to you that you would like to help out, you certainly can. Boyt: I need Laredo year. We need to set up a meeting with the Public Safety Commission and to, on our next meeting I guess, talk about how we're going to get trail down because Dale can't do it and that was to do done this Hasek: We just have to direct staff to get bids out on it but then it has to have a design for it too. Boyt: Well, we have those sections marked. Mady: But we don't have the layout of the land and all that. ,......., Sietsema: We don't have all of the easements either. to Frontier. All the way down Boyt: I think we need a meeting with Public Safety Commission to talk about our parks and patrolling the drinking in the parks. Park and Recreation Commission June 14, 1988 - Page 41 ......" sietsema: Yes. I'll talk to Jim. About the trail along Lotus Drive. We will have to hold public hearings before that happens because it does affect people. Even though it may be going in the right-of-way, they're going to want to have their input. Mady: Can you have Larry Brown give us information for our next meeting. We're looking now at July. There's only another two months left before school starts and I don't want those kids walking on the street next year. Hasek: How are we going to affect that if we haven't got the easements? Are you going to buy them? Mady: My understanding is we've got enough right-of-way to do it. Sietsema: But we need to hold public hearings though. Mady: We'll have to do that in July. I want a trail along there. Hasek moved, Watson seconded to adjourn the meeting. and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. All voted in favor Submitted by Lori Sietsema Park and Rec Coordinator --' Prepared by Nann Opheim ....""