PRC 1988 07 12
;.
CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION
~REGULAR MEETING
JULY 12, 1988
Chairman Mady called the meeting to order.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Sue Boyt, Jim Mady, Larry Schroers, Carol Watson, Mike
Lynch and Curt Robinson
MEMBERS ABSENT: Ed Hasek
STAFF PRESENT: Lori Sietsema, Park and Rec Coordinator and Todd Hoffman,
Recreation Supervisor
VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: HOCKEY ASSOCIATION.
Rich Larson: I'm here with Scott Simonson representing the Chanhassen-
Chaska Hockey Association. We are here because of the small rink, the
barn building that I believe you are all familiar with. That is a
building that is owned by Bloomberg and they have expressed interest in
doing one of two things. One is to, they would like to move their scene
shop back into that building as it was. That was the original purpose of
it. Two, if that is not possible, they would like to see an increase in
the rent. Our proposal to your committee is that there is a person there
now other than Bloomberg, basically a general manager type person that has
"""""proposed this rent increase which is unknown at this time. We would like
to know if the City and Park and Rec Commission would be interested in
forming kind of a negotiation committee. A couple of people to sit down
and talk with these people and see what exactly it is they're looking for
and try to hammer this thing out. I believe that they can move their
scene shop there at considerable expense we feel. If we're evicted in
that building, we are left with nothing for the foreseeable future. At
least two years. That we know is a fact. So we need some help here and
we would like to try and get together. It's early enough now. We don't
want to press this at a last minute where both sides are kind of at each
other's throats. Everybody knows the improvements and things that have
been placed in the building. The cost. Lori has all the details. Rent
figures from last year and I think what we're looking for is somebody from
this committee along with maybe myself, whatever to go sit down with
Clayton and find out what it is they want.
Watson: What is it currently? Rent.
Sietsema: Half of what they bring in.
Watson: What does that amount to do11arwise?
Hoffman: Approximately $1,700.00 this past year.
Watson: They want to take more than 50% is really what they're saying?
~Sietsema: If they rent it to somebody else, they can get $2.00 a square
~ foot and that would be on an all year basis. Right now they're getting
$1,700.00 a year which is virtually nothing.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 2
"""'"
Rich Larson: Quite frankly, that is nothing. We know that.
Boyt: But that was their, they knew what they were doing.
Rich Larson: Correct. That's one of the reasons that Clayton is there.
His job is to get that operation profitable and one of the ways they're
going to try and do it is to make use of the facilities that they have.
They are not going to try and get profitable at our expense only but they
are making an attempt to get things looking a little more black than red.
It's understandable to a point.
Watson: What did we do before we rented it? I haven't heard much about
the Hockey Association.
Scott Simonson: Nothing. We played outside.
Rich Larson: Outside and the key here is that that rink is designed
specifically for the young, beginning, the termites they call them, by age
level kids. The 5, 6, 7, 8 year olds. It is not designed for the older
kids. We can use it. That's fine but the key is to keep the young
beginners and their parents, which is very important, out of the elements
as much as possible.
Sietsema: To give you a little history of what I understand the way it
all came to pass and how we got to where we are is, 3 years ago the stage ~
shop was in that building and they were looking to expand to not only
being a scene shop just for the Dinner Theater but to move so they could
be operational building scenes for maybe Prine's studio and make a profit
above and beyond what they do for the Dinner Theater and to do that, they
needed more space so they moved into the old lumber building. They've
been there for three years and quite frankly, the way I understand it,
it's not working. They're not making any money so we need to go back and
they're looking at renting that space that they're in now and making some
money off of that. If they do that, then they need to put their scene
shop back someplace else. If they rent space, they're going to have to
pay $2.00 to $3.00 a square foot for it and why should they do that?
They're contention is, why should they do that if they've got a perfectly
good building that they have sitting there that they are virtually letting
the City use for almost nothing. Bloomberg doesn't want to come off to be
the big bad guy in this because he's been a good guy for the last 3 years
letting us use this for such a pentence. But he also, with Clayton there,
it just doesn't make sense to him as the manager of that company to be
paying money for space when he's already got space that he owns. I don't
know if they're got a renter in the space that they're in right now. I
don't know how immediate that they want us out of there. They haven't
come to us actually and said we want you out~ They're just saying that
that's a possibility if they get a renter and things progress. If they
get someone for that other space. But you're right, we do need to sit
down with them and ask them exactly what they want for rent. If it's
going to be $2.00 a square foot, we're going to be pretty hard pressed to .~
pay that kind of money.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 3
"".
Watson: What are our expenses basically there? How much could we afford
to pay them and still pay our expenses?
Sietsema: We've been losing about $1,000.00 to $2,000.00 a year on this.
Watson: So we're already losing a lot of money on this.
Rich Larson: One thing that we have, the rates have been low. There's no
doubt about that. What you charge to us. However, one alternative is
that we believe that that building that is only being used basically now
during the cold winter months, has potential to a certain degree as a
soccer type practice field. It's a cement floor in the summertime.
Roller skating. Any number of things that can be investigated at the City
level and see if there is a potential to increase revenue that may
possibly offset a rent increase, which of course we don't know what it's
going to be but that's what we want to sit down and talk to these people
about. That is a potential.
Schroers: Did we make the improvements on the building that we talked
about as part of the condensation problem was concerned? Have we done any
of that work?
Sietsema: The Hockey Association has done virtually all of the
~improvements that are in there. They're put in the boards and the viewing
room up above and the changing rooms and everything but the condensation
problem. . .
Rich Larson: The condensation problem actually was eliminated by the
Zamboni, which is what we felt would occur.
Schroers: Did you have good luck, I didn't get out there Sundays but did
the Zamboni work out well?
Rich Larson: It worked great. Beautiful. Biased or unbiased as I may
be, it really did make a difference. Not only to ourselves here in Chan
but the people that also paid to use the facility. It made a lot of
difference.
Schroers: Where does the money go that people pay?
Sietsema: It goes to pay the electricity and the rent basically. The
rink attendants.
Schroers: There isn't money left over to deal with an increase in rent?
Sietsema: No, we lose $1,000.00 to $2,000.90 a year on it.
Lynch: How many square feet are we talking about?
"""
Mady: I was thinking about 15,000. The rink's about 69 by...
Rich Larson: It's not..., 90 feet?
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 4
....",
Schroers: How much money has the Hockey Association itself stuck into
doing the things like the changing rooms and all that sort of thing?
Scott Simonson: We can go back on that and I can look up the records and
find out the exact figures for you. Either call it in or write it in,
something like that but I think last year we spent, for the viewing room
and some painting and the stairways, it was like $600.00 to $700.00 we put
into it.
Rich Larson: I know we've put in some real cash expenditures over the
last few years of a minimum of $7,500.00.
Sietsema: Does that include the $3,500.00 for the lights?
Rich Larson: Yes. That includes the lights. That we can account for
towards the intangibles which is free labor but real dollar expenditures
that not necessarily have been paid back but through one form or another,
that's been real money that's flowed through there.
Schroers: I would think that would lend support that you've made somewhat
of an investment.
Rich Larson: Our contention is this, we don't want to get to that point
but okay fine, it's your building. We're there. We made the
improvements. Now what guys? We take everything out? Who pays for that?-,.
There's a lot of things involved here.
Schroers: What you're really looking for is an equitable solution and you
want to stay there?
Rich Larson: Stay there, correct. It's our only alternative for a
minimum of 24 months the way we see it.
Boyt: When is the Lake Ann...?
Sietsema: We're hoping to start this fall.
Boyt: One alternative we could look at is using the carousel building.
It's 80 feet in diameter.
Mady: Are they thinking, talking about putting a rink in there?
Boyt: No. They're not thinking about doing anything specific but it's a
big building.
Sietsema: It's a round building that's 80 feet in diameter.
Mady: I think we're a tad short.
Boyt: Well, they have 60 foot.
Mady: A standard hockey rink is 85 by 200,
....",
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 5
,....
Boyt: I know but they're not dealing with that now.
with a 60?
They're dealing
Rich Larson: Is the length 200?
Mady: Yes.
Rich Larson: Okay, then we're at 120 I guess. We've about 40 feet short.
The size of that building Sue, that's the minimum. You really wouldn't be
able to go any smaller surface wise. Not necessarily the building.
Useable surface.
Scott Simonson: The other thing here is the kids and the age level. If
we lose that service, there's no ice available. Most city ice is already
taken up by other associations.
Boyt: Outdoors or indoor ice?
Rich Larson: Indoor ice.
Schroers: I was just commenting about our referendum. It's too bad that
that fell through.
~Rich Larson: We obviously feel the same way. But that's the process and
we accept that. We're going on from that.
Sietsema: How much can the Hockey Association pay for an hour of ice time
there? If we raise it from $25.00.
Rich Larson: What were we paying last year, $25.00?
Sietsema: We raised it $5.00 an hour last year.
Rich Larson: What we're paying in the full fledged, full tilt boogy rent
is $90.00 an hour. That's what we're paying now for the rest of the
program. For the other 90% is what we are paying for.
Mady: Outside of the, we have some Chan kids playing with the Minnetonka
Association don't we?
Rich Larson: Correct.
Mady: I personally wouldn't have the City subsidizing the Chanhassen
kids. That would be both the CAA and the Minnetonka program, but like
Eden Prairie, do any of their kids come over here or Shakopee or anybody
else?
Rich Larson: Not on a scale that's really worth discussion. Other than
Minnetonka. They're really the ones who use. The problem there is when
~we talk dollars, like the $25.00 fee that we pay now. This rent thing
ends up being something dramatic and we try and pass that onto our
visitors. They'll simply say thanks, but no thanks. That's what we're
concerned about. That we don't want to get into a position because to a
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 6
...."JIll
certain extent, if the people that we have brought in from other
communities have helped to keep the losses in that building at a minimum.
Lynch: If they're serious about the profiting of this, there's absolutely
no way that we could ever afford it. The only way that it's going to
amount to truly is if we rent the space for $2.00 a square or for some
intensive use in the short winter months and then some very light uses
I imagine in the summer. There's no way the City could charge for that.
I'm sure the Council is not going to like to subsidize to that extent.
Rich Larson: And that we understand and that is, I think 90% of the
reason that I'm here now is that we feel with the proper approach, we can
maybe offset that.
Sietsema: There's no decision that can be made tonight without sitting
down with Clayton and I think we ought to get...
Rich Larson: And basically say, okay here we are, here you are, and what
do you want out of us?
Sietsema: So staff and maybe one of your group and someone or two of the
Commission, we if we'd all sit down in a room with Clayton and try and
figure out exactly what are their needs and how soon and when is it all
going to happen. Are they going to all of sudden come to us one day and
say we've got a lease on the other space, we need it by the end of the -'
month. You've got to be out of there. After we got it in full running
gear, that could be pretty tough. But there's going to be some expenses
for them to get that building up and going too because the bathrooms don't
work and there's no heat in there right now. I don't think that's a major
thing for them because it's all there. It's a matter of getting it in a
working order. Again, there's no decision that we can really make except
to get an idea from the Commission of whether you're in support of
continuing our end of the deal of the rink. If we want to continue the
rink operation. If you didn't want to continue it at all, then we
obviously wouldn't proceed.
Watson: We should determine who's going to go along.
Sietsema: I wouldn't anticipate that you would want to terminate the
whole thing since we just bought a zamboni but that is a decision that...
Schroers: How kids are in this program?
Rich Larson: In the mites, 60 some kids now. For three months and then
the termites.
Scott Simonson: Figure another 10% this year. That's generally the way
it's been going.
Mady: One of the things, another cost to add is if you can figure out
another use for 9 months out of the year. Something that could bring in
small revenue into the building. Whether it's just short term rental
space or whatever. Space as it is isn't going to be useable for a lot of
....",.
a
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 7
,....,
things and when we were meeting with Clayton 6 months ago or so when we
were talking about the community center in that area, he was saying, geez
you can store boats down there. I'm not so sure that that's a proper use
in the zoned area and I don't know if Council would allow it but those are
other applications. I think at this point what we'll do is direct staff
to start looking with you guys and the commission and you can get Clayton.
We'll poll the commission members to see who's interested in handling the
project. Being involved in that. Speaking for myself and basically most
of the commission is very...the youth hockey program as it exists is doing
a good job. That use is unique down in that building. The free skating
and such so it's providing a benefit to the entire community.
Boyt: Are the hockey coaches going through the training that the CAA
coaches go through?
Scott Simonson: We just went through a coarse last week.
Boyt: Is it the same as the City?
Scott Simonson: No. We went to a guy by the name of Bob O'Connor and
Dick Gerard and we were there for 3 days, 4 hours a night. Three of the
coaches from the Chanhassen area were there. For the little kids it's
just the skating. They need that and a lot of times, as a small kid, when
~I grew up I skated outdoors. Kids now days won't do it and they won't
learn the same way. They'll say, I'm going to quit because it's too cold.
Boyt: As a Commissioner, I can't support the Hockey Association unless
it's coming from pretty much the same philosophy as the CAA. We're here
to teach the kids to have a good time...
Scott Simonson: We teach that philosophy. In fact, when we start our
meetings out at the beginning of the year, that type of a pamphlet is
given to the parents.
Boyt: Is it given to the coaches?
Scott Simonson: Coaches read it.
Rich Larson: .Just to answer your question Sue. There's actually a two
part answer to that because body that coaches or assists as a coach or as
a trainer in District 5 which is the district that encompasses a large
area, is required by the insured actually but by District 5 and by the
MAHA itself, which is the Hockey Association, the other hockey league in
the state, to attend a school at the beginning of each year. What Scott
is referring to is something that's in addition to that. It is an
acredited thing. It's put on by the big district people. In fact, if you
coach a team and you did not attend this school that they put on, you're
gone basically. Obviously the game is forfeited then so it is a good
,...." program.
Boyt: And the coach who is paying players is no longer coaching?
- -----'
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 8
Rich Larson: Well, we're not aware of that to be honest with you. I
personally had never heard of anybody paying players. Not to say that it
hasn't happened but I think you'll find that in any level. We just went
through our baseball season and we know there were some problems.
....."
Boyt: The CAA is really working at developing a program that has an
honorable philosophy to it.
Scott Simonson: I'm with the Hockey Association also and we're working
and striving for that also.
Boyt: I don't mean just in the training of coaching but the philosophy...
Rich Larson: Well, it all comes back, right down to basic morality. We
can get into a discussion about that until the cows corne home because I'll
really get outspoken about that type of thing. It's a good group. Our
meetings are open and membership is open so.
Mady: I think at this point we'll discuss with staff and see which
commissioners are willing to go with it and we'll try and get something
going in the next month or so, so by the time September rolls around,
we've got a fairly good idea what's going to happen on November 1st.
Rich Larson: I think one thing on that Jim is that I think if somebody
here was interested, we should probably try and at least sit down with
Clayton in the immediate future to find out... ....."
Sietsema: Because in September they're not going to be able to find ice
anyway. If they know now they might be able to scrouge up something.
Staff would be more comfortable if I had a motion directing staff to work
with the Hockey Association and Clayton and an appointed commissioner or
two to work this out to corne to an agreeable solution that the City. can
accept and afford to venture "into.
Mady: Okay, I'll make a motion that the Park and Rec staff work with
Chanhassen/Chaska Hockey Association and an interested Commissioner to
meet with Clayton Johnson of Bloomberg Companies to determine what
Bloomberg Companies' thoughts are concerning the availability of the small
rink building this corning year.
Sietsema: And do we have a commissioner who's willing to volunteer for
that?
Schroers: I'll give it a shot.
Boyt: Is it that involved?
Schroers: I really don't know. I would just request that an immediate
meeting doesn't corne up on Wednesday night. Wednesday night I'm tied up.
...".,
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 9
I!"'"
Mady moved, Watson seconded to direct the Park and Rec Staff to work with
the Chanhassen/Chaska Hockey Association, Larry Schroers and Clayton
Johnson of Bloomberg Companies to determine what Bloomberg Companies' .
thoughts are concerning the availability of the small rink building this
corning year. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Sietsema: Are you guys available to meet at all early, like right after
work? Like at 5:00, 5:30?
Schroers: I get home normally at about 4:15.
Sietsema: So you'd be available for like a 5:00 meeting?
Rich Larson: Basically what this boils down to is a lease negotiation.
That's what it is. That's what it will be.
Sietsema: But it would be helpful for them to know what our position is
too and to put all our cards on the table.
Rich Larson: Staff would be represented there also?
Sietsema: Yes. Todd and I will both be there. Tuesday night we have a
~trai1s task force meeting and Thursday we have a joint Public Safety/Park
and Rec Commission meeting so I'll have to contact Clayton and we'll set
up something up. I'll let you know when. Do you both want to be
contacted?
Rich Larson: I would for sure like to go.
Sietsema: So I'll contact you and you can get a hold of Scott.
APPROVAL OF EAGLE SCOUT PROJECT.
Jon Pahl: My name is Jon Pah1 and what I'm planning to do is at that
Carver Beach Park you know there's no marked off parking spots. I'll mark
off four parking spots which is the plan and the excess gravel, remove
that and either seed or sod and plant trees and bushes.
Mady: That was something we wanted to have done anyway and now we can get
an Eagle Scout to do it.
Sietsema: What was the bottom line figure on that Jon?
Jon Pah1: $1,717.00.
Schroers: I read through the list of materials and things here and
~where's the money coming from? Is that coming out of our budget?
Sietsema: We have it budgeted for. In the 1988 budget was to landscape
the parking area. That's one of the reasons why I brought this project to
Jon's attention because we roughly $3,000.00 in the budget I think.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 10
$2,000.00 to $3,000.00 for this project.
-'
Schroers: So this is no problem?
Sietsema: Budgetwise, no. We don't have to go to Council with it but it
does need to get approved by the City Engineer and I wasn't able to sit
down and discuss it with him yet but I don't think that's going to be a
problem.
Lynch: This is developed on a set of plans that we saw about a year or so
ago?
Sietsema: Right. He's got that plan and the plan that Mark Koegler put
together shows where the bollards should go. Where the landscaping should
go. What part of the gravel needs to be dug out. What trees and shrubs
are supposed to be planted so it's not something that he's made up. He
had a plan to work with and he went and got the prices and everything
himself and drew up this proposal. I think the price sounds good and I
know you're involved with the Boy Scouts, if you're comfortable with his
adult supervision, staff would recommend to approve the project.
Lynch: What's your work schedule for it? How many weekends?
Jon pahl: Two or three.
Lynch: How many people are involved?
....."
Jon pahl: Seven. The work parties?
Lynch: Yes.
Jon pahl: Seven.
Hoffman: He's got a time schedule there laid out.
Boyt: Does our city nursery have any of the plant materials?
Sietsema: No. All of our city nursery, the tree farm was eliminated when
the interceptor went through. We had to plant everything that was in
there. It's totally empty right now.
Schroers: I read something about rock on the trail. How much rock on how
much trail?
Jon Pahl: It's on the plan.
Schroers: How far does the trail go? All the way around the lake?
Lynch: One thing you need to be careful of Jon, with this weather we've
had, planting and maybe you want to work out with, who are you talking to
Gary. . .
"'*""
Sietsema: To tell you the truth, I have no idea when.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 11
,.....
Lynch: A year?
Sietsema: Less than a year. They're virtually done with that area.
Lynch: What I'm thinking is, Jon's got definite time constraints. He's
not to linger a project so he can get it finished so I hate to hang him
and say well, you've got to come back next fall and plant the bushes but
I'd like to see the bushes purchased and if we've got a spot where we can
put them, then I'm sure staff could drop them in some holes if Jon would
prepare the hole and put the black dirt in and hole and all that good
stuff. That staff could go out and...
Sietsema: I don't know if we nave a spot to put them or not. I really
don't know what the status is of the tree farm area. When that's going to
be and I don't know if a park site is appropriate just because they may
not be there when you get there.
Lynch: Not only that but they're going to have to be watered.
Sietsema: If you're not going to plant them right away, then I don't know
that we should even buy them right away.
,.....schroers: When did you want to start on this project?
Jon pahl: August.
Lynch: When do you want to get it wrapped up?
Jon Pahl: I was hoping for October.
Boyt: We're supposed to have a wet fall, according to the meterologists.
Schroers: If you want to gear the start of your project around the first
part of September, I wouldn't think that would be a problem.
Lynch: What you could do if, let's say the dry spell goes into the fall
and then the nursery folks just say, you can't plant it now. You might
have to go to your district and delete something and add something else.
We often see this happen on projects often because from the time you
conceive it and go out and do it, a lot of things get changed in the
meantime so you might keep that in mind and we'll watch the weather. That
spot up there, I think that what you're going to find when you start
digging is you're going to have gravel and you're going to have clay right
away. You'll have to pop against quite a bit of, 4 feet down of black
dirt to where you put a bush anyway but that's not the kind of place I'd
want to plant a bush right now.
Sietsema: They wouldn't understand if you started in August and wasn't
~able to, I mean if he completed one portion of the project and did Phase 2
in late September when it started to rain again or something?
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 12
~
Lynch: He'll have some margin as far as how long he waits as long as he
talks to the powers that be and the scout head and tells him what's going
on. Then if we can't plant, then you can come up for some additional work
on the same park or it doesn't even have to be connected to the same
facility as long as it's for the same sponsoring authority which is us.
Sietsema: I would think if you broke it into two phases and had two work
schedules for the two phases, they've got to understand.
Watson: Yes, he has no control.
Lynch: We don't want to put the plantings in initially so what I'm saying
is there's got to be a lot of sight preparation just to get it to the
point where you can put them in and if you can't put them in this year,
put them in next year.
Robinson moved, Watson seconded to approve the Eagle Scout project as
proposed by Jon pahl with the exception of the bushes and trees pending
the City Engineer's approval. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
REQUEST TO SIGN TRAIL, CHANHASSEN POND PARK.
Patti Flakne: I have the fortune and misfortune to live at the end of ~
Sierra Court and we love our lot because it's one mile away from the
bridge, end of the park but since we moved in, apparently, in fact you
told it was only last summer or so, people started walking in the back of
our lot before... We've since posted signs that we thought would scare.
Little tags, private property and still are going crossing and arguing
with me about it. Initially it would be nice to get some signs posted at
least at the bridge. Where they cross the brioge so people know to
continue straight ahead which by the property that they need to go and
continue on that path to go left around the park. The ultimate would be
to get a headstart, I don't know what your final plans are for the paved
entrance for the street at Sierra Trail to the pond. Either to rock it in
or guard, whatever. We've gotten rid of maybe 90% of the problem. We
just regraded the whole lot and we... The people that are actually to the
south of us, that lot, now everybody's just going through their lot. So
if somebody buys that lot, they're going to be in the same place we are.
Lynch: You're like the little accessway that the contractor used to get
materials...
Patti Flakne: We're not next to the park... We're finding out signs
would help. When we're eating breakfast, it's kind of been a joke but
that we're grading and seeding and planting, we'd like to get the job
done. Plus when I talked to you on the phone you said you wanted to
encourage people to walk around the pond and at this point it's really
thick in there. It's beautiful and I would love to see something. If
can't get in and out of the pond, at least get the access in there so
people know where they're at.
now
YOu
....."
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 13
II"""'"
Schroers: I think people generally think that when an area is undeveloped
like it is, it's very, very deceptive, like what am I hurting? They're
not seeing that they're doing... It would be a problem getting your lawn
established and I understand that.
Patti F1akne: Actually there's an easement and we can't plant around back
there. It's going to be wildflowers which are kind of look like weeds but
it's still our property and I don't like walking around in my backyard in
the morning and having people walking through my backyard because...and
I'm also from California where everybody has fences around their houses.
Watson: You're just exposed, aren't you?
Patti F1akne: Yes. I feel like I'm in a fishbowl and my husband doesn't
want to put up a fence so I'm sure we may do that but the main thing is
that people need to be aware of where the public access is.
Mady: When the trail plan was conceived,... responsible for getting that
trail put in are we?
Sietsema: Yes.
Mady: We are or we aren't?
II"""'"
Sietsema: We are.
Mady: Now I understand the city crew is kind of anxious to do something
down at the Pond Park. We're hoping, there was discussion here last time,
if there's anyway those guys have a half a day available to get a Bobcat
down there and scrap it up and put gravel in. That would probably take
care of 90% of the problem. The people then would see where the trail
actually goes because when you get past that bridge,...maybe take the worn
spot which is what I do. The worn spot goes right behind your house where
they've graded up. They've built nice dikes so the water doesn't run back
through the yards anymore. It appears as a natural trail there.
Patti F1akne: And it's becoming, since we've just graded last week, we
already have another...we've been out twice and raking...and people keep
coming.
Lynch: Temporarily, can't we put a piece of snow fence in 20 feet past
the end of the bridge from the south end to the north end where there's a
drop off. If we just drop 30 feet of snow fence in there with a sign that
says, trail this way, private property?
Patti F1akne: My question is how do the people in our neighborhood get
there because I'm quite sure exactly where the trail is supposed to for
the public access to the park.
~Boyt: It's right off the cul-de-sac.
Patti F1akne: At the tip or beginning of the cul-de-sac?
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 14
....",
Boyt: Yes. It's inbetween.
Patti Flakne: But I mean, when you get to the pond, it's pretty thick
with trees so do they have to do something with those trees at that point?
Mady: No. I think we've got enough space that we can meander through.
Boyt: When I talked to a lot of neighbors...and one of the things they
say is, well, where are we supposed to go? We get there and people, they
just don't know. If we had a trail there, they could figure it out. If
we had a trail going around the pond, they could figure it out. Some of
them want the City to offer to buy the back of your yard. Originally
there was supposed to be a trail through there. When I came on the
Commission, it was inside the Comp Plan that the trail would go through
that.
Patti Flakne: We specifically checked that out when we bought the lot to
make sure that it wasn't...
Boyt: ...told Patti that people could walk through there forever and
there was no possible way because it was a marsh. I think we need to put
the trail in off of the cul-de-sac.
Mady: Yes. We need to get that done.
....""
Patti Flakne: At least that. Put some signage at the pond and possibly
at the street level on your way in. So far it's been real good and I just
took this kid's head off yesterday morning. We've got this rope across
there and he was walking across, right in the middle. I was very upset at
that point. I'm all for working with you guys if we can get a solution.
Sietsema: The master plan for the park is in process. We should be
seeing that within the next month. I will be scheduling the meeting with
Gary to sit down and talk about the projects again, all the CIP projects.
I can't tell you when they're going to get to that cul-de-sac or when
they're going to get to paving that. They've worked three times just in
cleaning up the one that's already in. With all the other things that are
going on around, the street crew is busy. So I don't know when they'll
get to it. I'll find out, if you want.
Mady: ...staff who isn't cutting grass right now and if they could give a
day to just going down and brushing off the area and install a snow fence,
that would probably help a lot.
Boyt: If it went on the eastern side from the park up to the road so it
outlines one side of the path. Everyone from your neighborhood could get
from the cul-de-sac into the park. They just couldn't go through your
backyard.
Sietsema: To take a day to do that, I'm not trying to be argumentative, ~
but what do you want them to put on the back burner until they do this
that isn't on the list?
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 15
,...,
Boyt: Are they doing stuff on the list?
Sietsema: They're doing Bandimere Heights totlot equipment. They've -got
the volleyball cut up at North Lotus. They're doing as much and as fast
and furiously as they can because they're trying to take advantage of this
no grass cutting season.
Watson: And the fact that everyday is a day they can work.
Sietsema: Right so it's not like they're not doing anything now. Adding
another thing means that something else has to be pushed aside and we do
have a lot of things that we added this year. We've got a longer CIP list
than we've ever had before.
Boyt: And it's going to be longer next year.
Robinson: Would it be possible, like you say, put a snow fence in there?
Mady: What I'm saying is, can Dale take 3 of his guys and this once,
instead of starting at 8:~0 at Bandimere Heights, go and do that. The
whole schedule just gets moved back a half a day.
Hoffman: Dale's only got one guy and two part-times.
,....
Boyt: I thought he had at least college kids.
Mady: Plus another one.
Boyt: And they're just part-time?
Hoffman: Full-time during the summer. They're high school age. They're
not college but they're good workers.
Patti Flakne: What is the plan and timeframe to have the path go all the
way around paved? Is that to have it paved or just roughed in?
Mady: We didn't decide whether it's paved.
Patti Flakne: But you plan on at least grading something out there?
Lynch: With the development, it looks like it will be next summer by the
time we can get the plan and get it approved and that's a follow-up thing
but I know those...next summer.
Sietsema: I hate to tell you when for sure and I hate to be the pessimist
all the time but if we do everything that's on our CIP list for next year,
we're going to have a capital improvement program of well over $4~~,~~~.~~
and there is no way in God's little green earth that that's ever going to
~be approved. The thing is, what I try and tell people is that Chan Pond
Park is virtually a new park. That we've got the total thing now. We're
got parkland out there that we've had for well over 12 years that hasn't
been touched yet and we've got a full community living around it that are
begging for facilities. It's not that we're trying to put you off but we
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 16
-'
do have obligations to people that have been here longer and have been
waiting longer. So if it's a minor thing, I can see where it would
probably get done next year but if it's going to be, the master plan isn't
done, we don't know what kind of expense it's going to be. If it's more,
I would venture that it's going to be more of a 1990 timeframe.
Patti Flakne: Just in possibly grading around an entrance
and talking about putting the snow fence up and signs up.
how your insurance would handle people volunteering, but I
would certainly be willing to put our...
Sietsema: The trail between the parkland itself and the street I think
will be done this year because I know Gary wants to get those kinds of
things in before the people are there on both sides. Because if they buy
the house now and it's there, we don't have that battle down the road in
putting it in later. I would think that that's going to be done and
I know that Jerry Schlenk who is actually the street crew foreman, I know
that he's got that on his list this week. I can't tell you if it's going
to be done in July or August or October.
by the street
I don't know
would say we
Patti Flakne: I just said, my husband drives a Bobcat and if he had
access to one, he would certainly volunteer his time to go do it from the
street at least to the pond. If the City's willing to do supply
that...posting signs or whatever.
....",.,
Sietsema: I can certainly ask park maintenance to put in at least some
snow fence and I do have some money in the budget this year for signs.
Robinson: Do you need anything else on that? A motion?
Sietsema: I need a motion to direct me to do what I just said.
Watson moved, Robinson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
direct staff to put up snow fences to outline the Chan Pond Park path and
put up signage. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Mady: Can I have a matter of discussing here the possibility if maybe the
street maintenance or somebody had an opportunity, it would be nice if
they could just mow a trail along the pond.
Lynch: Take the brush out and mow around the pond.
Schroers: Someone used something similar to a woods mower and mowed the
trail between Lake Ann and Greenwood Shores Park and that type of a mower
would probably be able to mow a rough trail most of the way around Chan
Pond. That shouldn't take more than an hour or two to do that.
Lynch: Generally, the grass is a foot to 18 inches high...
--'
Schroers: Really somebody should have thought ahead of the fact and may
not even be the exact route that you would want permanent but it would
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 17
,....,
make for a fairly decent walking path.
Patti Flakne: I was just wondering what timeframe when I could expect to
possibly see something happen?
Watson: The snow fence?
Patti Flakne: Yes, at least the snow fence. I don't know if just the
snow fence but some kind of a sign trying to explain why it's up. People
will just climb right over it.
Sietsema: The signs might take a little bit longer because they're going
to have to be special. It's not like a no parking sign where you have a
zillion of them. The sign might be a little while but I will try and
relate to Dale that it needs to be done by August 1st. That would give
him plenty of time for him to plan his schedule.
SUBDIVISION REVIEW, TIM ERHART.
Sietsema: This parcel is owned by Tim Erhart. I don't know if you know
Tim Erhart. He's on the Planning Commission and lives down off of West
96th Street which is off of TH 1~1. This piece of property was actually
"""looked at as to one of the sites, remember when Mark did the big view of
the City and did the yellow color of the potential sites for the souther
park? This was one of the sites. One of the reasons that it wasn't
highly recommended is because it has a little more topo than some of the
other sites that we looked at at that point in time. This is more
centrally located than the Gagne property or Halla property but again, it
had more topo and that meant development costs. He's proposing to divide
the 76 1/2 acres into two single family lots. His buildings in what is
now known as Parcel A and the 66 1/2 would be Parcel B. I have no idea
what he's planning. If he's actually going to build a house out there or
save it to subdivide later. Maybe he's going to approach the City and say
take my land for the southern park. I really don't know what he's got
planned. Tim was very instrumental in planning the trails in the southern
area. He walked the whole Bluff Creek area and he mapped out where the
best trails were for a trail plan. He has installed a trail here and I
believe this is the end because it goes up like this and then he owns this
lot over here and had the wetland marsh, swamp type area. He's got a
trail that goes around that and I think this is his as well that he mows
and maintains himself.
Schroers: Is that the one that they used to ride the horses on but you
can't ride horses on anymore?
Sietsema: Exactly. As part of this subdivision, staff would recommend
that we actually acquire the easements in case something happens to Tim
r-and it doesn't get recorded that his intention for that was. Right now
he's letting the public use it and he's maintaining it. I think for the
longevity of our trail plan, we should get the easements for these trails.
I have a trail plan map here to show you how it fits into the big picture.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 18
.....".
His lot is this piece. This big square here. This is the T Bar K, do you
remember that one where we went through the back of their yard and now it
actually goes up to the street and comes down here. Here's the trail that
comes through his property. This is the Bluff Creek trail so it's an
offshoot that follows a wet area that shoots off of Bluff Creek.
Boyt: Who owns the property around the pond?
Sietsema: He does. Tim does.
Boyt: That's a beautiful piece of property.
Sietsema: Yes, he has that trail in. He has a trail going around that
pond that is in.
Watson: Can we buy a trail from him too at the same time we did this
easement or can we get an easement from him so we have that?
Sietsema: Yes. It's just a matter if he's willing to do it.
Watson: Could we propose it to him at the same time to get this easement
if we could get the one for the trail around the pond because that really
isn't a thing to happen, to lose that.
.....".
Boyt: The pond area would be...
Sietsema: I'm a little confused. I thought that Tim would be here and
what confuses me about this is that I sent Tim a letter asking him if he
was interested in dedicating that trail area to the City that he should
let me know in writing so I could get a surveyor out there and he never
contacted me back. Maybe he knew he had this on the line and figured we'd
just take it then. I don't know what he's thinking. I kind of thought
that he'd be here. At any rate, I don't think that we should close the
door on our plan for that 66 acres because it does connect into some
really nice natural areas. Granted it will take tpe same amount of
grading probably as the Lake Ann Park expansion s~ there is substantial
grading but it would be conducive for ballfields as well.
Schroers: If we were to apply for an easement, would we be free at that
time to allow for people to use those trails for riding their horses on
them?
Sietsema: Unless he puts a stipulation that the City would accept that we
wouldn't do that?
Schroers: But if we put a stipulation in that to make that one of our
stipulations that we would want it to be available for riding.
Watson: If we don't make it available down there, there isn't any other ~
place we can do it.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 19
,....,
Mady: What he's asking us to do, as I see it, is just take an easement
with us being able to determine what goes on in an accomodating way and
he'll have to see that we're going to have horses down there, he's got to
know now which I think we're going to anyway. I don't want to see
hassles. Tell him on that particular piece we're going to do it because 2
years down the road and we're looking at another piece, if we don't tell
that person that we're going to do it and he comes back later and says no
you can't do it. I don't want to have that kind of a battle.
Sietsema: If we own the easement, we can do what...
Schroers: That's basically what I was asking you. If we obtain the
easement, then can we let the horse people on if we want or can we do
anything that we want or is there anything else we can do?
Sietsema: I'd have to ask the City Attorney for clarification. I think
that if we own the trail easement, unless it specifically says that it's a
pedestrian easement only. If it's a pedestrian easement only, than we may
be limited legally to only a footpath type of pedestrian easement or a
bicycle trail or walking trail or something but if we leave it as a trail
easement, I don't think they'll close any doors.
~Schroers: That would be good and I would certainly propose that we would
go for a trail easement and not just pedestrian.
Sietsema: I think we need to make certain that the Council is aware that
we don't want to, that we would restrict motorized use of this but not
necessarily the horse use. So the thing now, if perhaps a developer down
the line says what kind of uses are you going to have on this trail, I'm
not sitting around...
Boyt: I guess we need a definition for that kind of trail.
Sietsema: Yes, a nature trail, we need to know what the means.
Watson: If that covers all these trails.
Boyt: Do we have that definition?
Sietsema: I don't think we do at this time. I'll have to check in our
trail plan and see if it includes horses or not. Again, the
recommendation of staff is to approve the proposal contingent upon
dedication of a 20 foot wide trail easement along the southern and eastern
boundaries in the wetlands in the northwest corner. Again, I think we
should let Tim know that this isn't necessarily thrown out on the
consideration for the southern park area.
Mady: I'll make a motion in that we go with Lori's recommendation as to
~~obtaining a 20 foot wide trail easement along the southern and eastern
boundaries of the wetlands in the northwest corner. Also, that we
continue to consider this parcel as a potential parkland in the southern
area and that staff discuss with Mr. Erhart as to the possibility of
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 20
.....,
obtaining additional easements in trails that already exist on his
property. Does that sum it up?
Mady moved, Robinson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommend to approve the subdivision as proposed contingent upon obtaining
a 20 foot wide trail easement along the southern and eastern boundaries of
the wetlands in the northwest corner. Also, that the Park and Recreation
Commission continue to consider this parcel as a potential parkland in the
southern area and that staff discuss with Mr. Erhart as to the possibility
of obtaining additional easements in trails that already exist on his
property. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Boyt: I think we need to move on this southern parkland pretty soon
because I think these pieces are going to come up and we're going to miss
them. Tim might have plans for this and this might have been our chance
right here.
Mady: The meeting in two weeks we're going to discuss this.
Sietsema: I have a couple of things to add before we go on too far. Are
you all getting, you're keeping from ARPA? Did you get a think in the
mail about this IPD? The Commission has $500.00 in the budget for
conferences under travel and training. Since this is a local conference
and the one in the fall, the annual fall conference is also local, it's in
Bloomington, you could probably send two commissioners to each one if you
so desired to go. There's a special Board of Commission forum on Tuesday
evening, that's August 23rd. They're going to be discussing marketing,
public relations and liability and the interrelationship among them. It's
something I'd like to see the commission go to just so you have more of an
idea of what it takes to do programming and what's involved. This
commission has been really geared toward parks in the past and although
you're getting more and more into the recreational programing, I see you
going more into that direction. Having more of a say into what the
different events and programs that take place in the City and I think this
would be a good conference for commissioners to attend, if anybody's
interested.
-'
Watson: We would see if something comes up like the Hockey Association
and the softball team that wanted sponsorship and stuff. We are dealing
more, have to face up to the fact that programs are not self-supporting.
Ultimately,...is probably going to be to maintain programs that are
currently in the City.
Boyt: There are cities that make sure all the programs that they sponsor
and that they do themselves. They charge enough so they... That's one of
the things they're going to talk about.
Sietsema: Yes, and I think that's where the marketing comes in. We may
be able to come up with some, we might be able to network with these
people and find out some things that could go on in that building and the
.......,
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 21
"'"
marketing techniques you need to get the information out to the people and
get them intrigued enough to register so that we do have the money coming
in. The bottom line is, programs typically, and I don't know, typically
in the metro area, programs do support themselves. That's the way they
are designed. If you get outstate into, and I did some research on this
back when we were doing the community center studies and cities such as
Albert Lea and New Ulm, they're more of a rural town. I don't know if
their income or their residents are not, they figure if they make 50% of
what the program costs, they're doing good so they automatically run
everything at making 50% up in the user fees. In the Cities area, they
don't feel that that's, unless you're in a lower income area, they don't
feel that that's the way they should be run. Typically they are self
supporting programs. Our softball programs are all self supporting. Our
karate classes were self supporting. Our CPR classes were self
supporting. Most of our baseball things that the CAA runs, they don't
have anything to subsidize those things so they either have to make their
money in user fees or in donations from local area businesses and
sponsorships and that kind of thing.
Lynch: And fund raisers.
Boyt: They haven't had fund raiser in years.
,.....
Lynch: That's too bad.
Schroers: I would be interested in attending.
Sietsema: Okay, did you get yours then?
Schroers: Yes. I don't know that I kept it though.
Sietsema: Why don't you just let me know because if we get more than two
people from one agency to go we get a discount so let me know if you're
interested and I'll do the registration.
Boyt: I'm interested in the fall one.
Lynch: I would think probably in both.
Mady: That's the 23rd of August?
Sietsema: Yes. The deadline is August 6th so please let me know by then.
This is a lot of money. It's $135.00 a person. I think it's a lot of
money. It's a lot of money for the IPD.
Robinson: Is it making meetings...
Hoffman: That's two days for $135.00 for registration.
~
Mady: A two day conference.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 23
......",
center task force and at that time I had already been working on a concept
so at that time I started establishing two guys, here's an opportunity,
maybe we should take a look at this and present it to the Council. So
that's what I've done. I've worked in concept utilizing the City Center
parkland and a portion of the school property. We're talking with the
Chaska School system.
Boyt: It's called the Chanhassen School System.
Mady: What it will entail is building a free standing building that would
connect it to the school gym area between the school and Coulter Drive
utilizing all four acres of the City Center Park land. We would have to
relocate the hockey rinks and the winter skating area and this plan shows
moving one of the ballfields and adding another ballfield. We're also
looking at the property on the north side of the school property which
goes all the way to Santa Vera that's approximately 4 to 4 1/2 acres of
land. It's currently owned by Doug Hanson and it is being listed on the
market for approximately $170,000.00. We are thinking about making an
offer to buy that property...so the price doesn't go up. The developer
currently and for some time has not had an idea of what to do with that.
It's zoned for multi-family and he has no plan really at this time.
That's why he's got the land, it's listed although not officially on the
market.
......",
Boyt: I don't think it goes out to the road. There are apartment
buildings adjacent to it.
Mady: The property to the north that could...is really a park itself.
Watson: There's a strip of land basically between those apartments and
the school parking lot area that's along Laredo Drive.
Mady: This is the concept you're looking at. We met two weeks ago, the
people who had signed up for the Task Force, most of them were there
including members from the Citizens for a Better Community Center. They
initially got the idea that it had some merit. What we want to do now is
see if we can get a little bit more information and then go to Council so
get their approval to form a task force and to investigate funding because
no matter what we do, we have at the most right now a l~ million dollars
in funding available if the trail system goes through so we can't build
this whole thing anyway for the first five years but we can build a good
share of it. We're looking at how we can phase it. Other plans, Bob...
the school system had indicated that it may be a possibility of utilizing
some school bonding for it. Bob indicated that the school system would
like to have an opportunity to expand the elementary school but because
they have a problem with expanding common areas, the cost or utilizing the
gym it should be connected to it, the school gym be available to the
school use, that it would solve some of their problems also. So it's now
in the discussion stage.
....""
Boyt: It's a interim use.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 22
,....
Sietsema: It's Tuesday from 9:30 to 4:30 and Wednesday from
If you want the one day, the one day registration is $95.00.
a Board of Commission seminar which is $22.00 per commission
of $100.00 per agency. So if you weren't interested in that
thing, you could just go to the Board of Commission seminar.
9:00 to 4:00.
Then there's
to a maximum
full day
Mady: Maybe after the meeting tonight we could close out that thing.
Hoffman:
seminar.
You could send the whole Commission to the Board of Commission
Sietsema:
August 23.
Yes. We could send the whole Commission and that's on Tuesday,
We could do it ins~ead of a regular meeting.
Boyt: Where is it?
Sietsema: Sheraton Northwest. 1-94 and US 169.
Hoffman: That's the accomodation.
Sietsema: You're right it is.
~ Hoffman: Brooklyn Park Community Center. The special Board and
Commission forum is from 7:00 to 9:30 Tuesday, August 23rd. Registration
and light supper begins at 6:00 p.m.. Both Dr. Compton and Kowlowski will
discuss marketing/public relations and liability and the innerrelationship
among and a local Attorney with many years of experience in municipal law
will present the state of legal liability as it currently exists in
Minnesota and time will be allowed for questions from the floor.
Questions may be submitted in advance. That's the two main speakers that
are doing the full conference or doing the special Board Commission forum.
Mady: Let's do it as our meeting. We have a horrendous meeting agenda
set coming at that time.
Sietsema: I don't know that we could do it instead because we're not
going to have any other items at our next meeting. I don't know. It's
hard for me to know but I just wanted to bring it to your attention.
Mady: Why don't you make a copy of that and at our next meeting we'll -let
you know.
Sietsema: Alright. Anybody have any questions on the Administrative
Section?
NEW PROPOSAL FOR COMMUNITY CENTER, JIM MADY.
~ Mady: Do you want to do that first or the proposed community center?
Lori asked that I let you guys know that it's going to be discussed
tomorrow night. There is no task force officially for the community
center. Six weeks ago the City Council acted to not form a community
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 24
-'
Watson: There are also other things. Every time you go across a city
line, you'll have a repeat of what was in the other community. The school
district in the City where we're trying to build something that would be a
mutual use, it seems to me we're wasting money... Schools build gyms and
the community builds gyms. It seems like somebody has got to build an
auditorium someday.
Mady: I agree. This is what the concept is right now. Chaska apparently
is going through the idea that they may...a year from now. This thing
goes to referendum in November.
Robinson: You do have a group that's continuing to work on it?
Mady: Unofficially we're working. The task force hasn't been officially
formed. I've worked on this and pushed for this because I'm very, very
interested.
Sietsema: There's definitely a group of interested people that want to
see a community center in Chanhassen that are willing to meet on a regular
basis. They're the people that applied to be on the task force if it was
continued and then it didn't look like there was anything to task force
about.
Mady: One of the concerns, they had it that little piece of ground to ~
build it on. When we bought at Lake Ann, buy a portion of the Eckankar
property but the Eckankar people indicated that they'd be willing to sell
it to us at their cost, what they valued the property which at this point
is $750,000.00 unless you get sewer into it. If you go out to look at the
Char lIe James property right over here. Again, it would take $750,000.00
so after you've put $800,000.00 into it, you can't build anything. If
that's the case, we are stuck for 15 years with nothing basically.
Watson: You can't explain to them. We'll just buy that land over there.
Do you have idea what that land is worth? I mean, just buy that land over
there.
Boyt: Then they say, what if we can't buy it, just take it? Can't city's
do that? They do.
Mady: Since it's going to impact the City Center Park, you should be
aware of what we're doing.
Sietsema: In the process of this discussion I've been involved somewhat.
I've maintained that I don't believe that this Commission would be in
agreement to put a community center that meant we're going to wipe out all
the facilities we have at City Center Park because that is a nice
facility. It's well used. It's used by, for what is there, we could use
more fields in that spot so if putting a community center there meant that
we couldn't have at least 3 ballfields and an ice skating rink and what's ~
there, then I personally couldn't see eliminating already well used
facilities for something new. But if we can do both, I think it's a
wonderful idea. In that respect, I think that this commission should be
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 25
"""""
aware that that's what their goal is.
Lynch: What I like about it is the fact that they're, and the part that I
didn't like about the old plan was the fact that there's outdoor
facilities adjacent to it and not Filly's Bar. I didn't like the downtown
location although I didn't say anything. I kept my mouth shut.
Mady: On the Adminstrative packet. The letter to NSP from Gary Warren,
the sample ordinance which was Section 2(c) talking swimming rafts left
overnight on the waters of any lake must be anchored directly out from and
within twenty-feet of lakeshore site owner. That's way too low. I was
thinking more of the lake out from the shoreline.
Sietsema: No, it's not out from the shoreline, it's within 25 feet. It's
got to be directly out from your property or within 25 feet.
Mady: Either side?
Sietsema: Either side. Out from and within 25 feet of a lakeshore site.
That's a little unclear isn't it?
~Mady: Yes. ...so it's at least at a depth of 8 feet or something. That
needs to be reworded.
Lynch: I think any permanent mooring...this says about restricting
waterway.
Sietsema: Restricting waterway? I don't understand.
Lynch: Your passable waterway freely. A channel would be one of them.
utilizing the drop off point pattern onto this stuff. On our lake there's
certainly specific waterways that boat traffic uses. Here, you can stick
it out there.
Sietsema: This is just an amendment to an existing ordinance.
Lynch: But in the existing ordinance, is there anything that di~cusses
obstruction of boat traffic?
Mady: How far is that slow no wake zone out from the shoreline?
Sietsema: About 100 feet.
Mady: That's for most cases, sufficient for a raft.
Lynch: But even then, you wouldn't want to put a channel of boats, you
wouldn't want to put it within 100 feet because that channel is fairly
~narrow. Even a slow wake zone, you don't want to plop a raft in the
middle of it.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 26
--"
Schroers: What this ordinance here is saying is that in the evening the
guy's going to have to come and pull his raft into within at least 25 feet
from shore to get it out of the lake? Is that what I'm reading?
Sietsema: The intention of this is so that if you have a raft, you have
to put it out in front of your property. You can't put it out in front of
park property.
Watson: The one over at Carver Beach is what we're talking about.
Sietsema: For our purposes, that we don't want rafts launched and boats
moored off of park property.
Watson: And we have.
Robinson: It has nothing to do with the distance out in front?
Mady: No, it has to do with the sides.
Schroers: That's not clear when we read it.
Sietsema: And this is a first draft. Public Safety is working on this
with Roger so I'll bring it to his attention.
~
Schroers: To me it sounded like they had to put it within 25 feet of the
shore at night.
Sietsema: Okay, I'll ask him about it.
Lynch: This would eliminate the raft that's down there now?
Sietsema: Right.
Mady: I was reading Scott Harr's letter, has Scott gone down there and
does he feel that there are boats getting on the old access too? Has he
looked at that? He's not saying they are but is he saying there might be
that chance?
Sietsema: All he's saying is that they told him that they saw that they
were so he's not going to say that they're not because there's no evidence
of it. He can't tell them you're wrong.
Lynch: Doesn't Al say there's some 4 wheeler tracks across it?
Sietsema: Way last spring but there's no evidence of anything going in
now.
Hoffman: Recently Dale said he sees no indication that anybody has gone
across that grass. -,.
Mady: I'm not in favor of throwing bollards all across that property or
doing anything to it.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 27
,....
Sietsema: There is a sign up that we put up.
Watson: Let's react to a problem, not...
Lynch: Not a maybe.
Watson: Not a something that's just kind of in the minds of people who...
Mady: Those are the neighbors who live on the lake and they see it.
Watson: We don't need to look for trouble. We can react to a problem as
it comes up. I hate to see it get all fenced up. North Lotus Lake Park
sure looks pretty.
Sietsema: It does?
Watson: That parking lot and the tennis courts and all that stuff up
there, it really does look nice.
Lynch: When I drive to come over here, the troops were all going up the
street with baseball bats on their shoulders.
,....
Sietsema: To North Lotus?
Lynch: Yes. Every night now.
Sietsema: Play in the dirt?
Lynch: Anything that's flat. They have no problem.
Mady: They can play on that just as well on any of the fields that were
seeded and grass has been growing for 10 years right now is dirt too so...
Lynch: I had a question on this letter from Scott Harr. What prompted
this?
Sietsema: He went to a Lotus Lake Homeowners Association meeting and they
had a number of concerns.
Lynch: Did they call and ask that somebody in staff attend?
Sietsema: Yes.
Lynch: Some of the items here are sort of self explanatory but some of
them escape me a little bit. What they thought the problems were.
~Sietsema: The letter is to the person who had the problems. I've heard
all the complaints about a zillion times because I get the calls too. What
specifically?
Lynch: For instance, the gate attendants keep records of questions.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 28
....",
Sietsema: They just asked the question, does the gate attendant have any
idea how many boats are launched and when is the cut off time etc. so he's
just responding, yes they do keep records.
Lynch: He says the gate attendants are trained on how to deal with unruly
people and so forth. I stopped down there a couple of weeks ago.
Sietsema: Were you unruly?
Lynch: I tried to be as much as possible to check them out.
Sietsema: Were you the one that threaten the girl there the other day?
Lynch: I just asked them how are things going...we've got boys down here
sometimes so I had to chase a couple out. But we did have a bad one?
Sietsema: Yes. Evidentally, there was a guy who, the parking lot was
filled and he wanted to park and she told him that you can't park on the
street and the parking lot is filled, you'll have to find another place to
park. So he was going to go park his trailer on a spot that already had a
trailer in it and she told him he couldn't because when the guy comes back
with his car he won't have a place to put his car and he went and did it
anyway. She told him he couldn't do that and he threaten here basically -,.
by saying, well, I'll deal with you. How did it go?
Hoffman: That's what he said. She was just intimidated by this person.
He said, I'll deal with you if you don't let me park there. I don't care
who you call, I'm coming back to talk to you.
Sietsema: She didn't dare call the police because he came back and his
car was towed or tagged, he was going to deal with her. She didn't know
if the police would stay there and protect her. How long are they going
to sit there with her until this guy comes off the lake and he came back
and there was a ticket on his car. She didn't know what he meant by, I'll
deal with you. She was very intimidated.
Mady: Has Jim Chaffee talked to her about how to handle that? I would
hope that anytime one of our park attendants feels intimidated or
threatened, even if the person has their boat on the water, they call the
Carver County Sheriff Department to get involved because they go out on
the lake and they can pull that guy.
Sietsema: Well, they will be calling him because she did take down his
license number and everything.
Mady: The one I wanted to mention before the meeting goes on, on trails.
I see they're starting work on Kerber Blvd. with the sewer. I hope -'
everybody knows we're going to get new curb and putting a new trail.
Sidewalk trail on Kerber Blvd. and it's not coming out of the park budget.
That's fantastic. It's going to be great.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 29
,....
Boyt: Would you talk to, who is it, in the City who oversees that type of
stuff. These construction workers are parking their cars in the road and
trucks in the road and they're not putting up any sort of barriers. They
just stop, they leave their trucks halfway out in the road. It's real
dangerous.
Mady: The other thing I wanted to bring up, the fact that TH 5 is being
expanded. Right now, if you notice in Eden prairie from prairie Center
Drive past McDonalds on that side, if you'll notice on that side, they are
putting trails in. The State is putting a trail in and they are going
through...
Schroers: What's the status of the trails going in along Carver Beach
Road from Powers up to the park?
Watson: And Laredo?
Sietsema: Gary asked me to give him a map on where we wanted those trails
and I just have to figure out what kind of public hearing meetings we have
to have.
~Schroers: Is that going to happen that year yet?
Sietsema: Yes, he's hoping to.
Schroers: Before winter?
Sietsema: Yes, he's hoping to.
Mady: I talked to Don and we're probably going to have to have a public
hearing on that. Which will bring us down to, since we'll be dealing with
the public on that, we might as well start talking about Council action
last night. You should have seen the crowd we had up here.
Watson: I got no less than 5-6 notices to corne to that meeting in my
mailbox.
Boyt: Did you?
Watson: I knew I wasn't corning.
Mady: On Greenwood Shores, they carne in here and they were fairly unruly.
The Mayor, Mr. Geving, Mr. Horn saw fit to deny access to the remainder of
the City to that park. The Mayor went so far as to say, he didn't
understand why the Park and Rec Commission was wasting their time and
Council's time bringing this to their attention when it's obvious nobody
wanted it. Mr. Geving said words basically to that effect.
,.....
Watson: Do we get the playground equipment?
.1
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 30
-'
Mady: No. They're not doing anything in that park. Council asked us to
do nothing in that park. They are going to be asking Public Safety to
look at the no parking signs that are littered throughout the street there
but basically we're not going to. What happened last night is, the 40
people that were here were able to convince the remainder of the Council,
they didn't get to Mr. Boyt or Mr. Johnson voted against the motion, but
we lost. I was disappointed in the Council. We met with them a little
over a year ago and it was specifically on this item so we could get our
heads together on this and what we're doing and we were acting on their
request on this. They told us what they were thinking. We told them what
we were thinking. We had a pretty good idea. We went into numerous
meetings that we suffered through, and we came out with a unified
recommendation and we got...by the Council. It's like they couldn't
figure out what the world we were doing. I was very disappointed in the
Council last night because we got together with them a year ago on this
particular item so they knew what we were talking about. They basically
told us that they couldn't tell what the world we were doing here.
Boyt: Bill sent the message tonight saying, he thanked the Park and Rec
Commission for all the work they did on this and all the support. As long
as he's on the City Council, this will be brought up again.
Robinson: We put a lot of work and effort into that and then just to have
them go off on their own like they didn't hear from us, that kind of ticks~
me off. ...a guy that was replaced on this commission said he quit
because their recommendations, he said the Council just ignored them. He
said, I don't have to put up with that crap.
Lynch: He's not the first.
Robinson: I think we should keep bringing this up every year.
Schroers: ...a policy that we could follow some guidelines in developing
neighborhood parks in the future. Something specific so we don't have to
look like neither one of us knows what's going on and so we're not
together on anything.
Mady: That's why we had the joint meeting a year and a half ago so we
knew where we were heading on this.
Schroers: Well, it didn't work out.
Mady: It sounds like the Park Commission members have had that problem
over the year.
Lynch: I think the joint meeting was the proper direction. I don't think
it was formal enough. For instance, I would have loved to have a
directive schedule which we could have handed the Greenwood Shores
residents and said, okay folks, we're not talking right and wrong. We're-,
talking what we'd like in there. We're not talking is it going to be fair
or is it not going to be fair or what you like or don't like. What do you
think the park should be? What construction. If you don't have anything
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 31
~
constructive to say, sit down or go talk to the Council. I think we could
have, if we had had a directive such as that, even though we kept telling
them and put it in their hand and circle it in red and say, okay. I'm
sure Jim's strong enough or I would be if he was there, if they got
negative to stop them. We wasted at least half our time on unconcerned
issues.
Schroers: We did waste an awful lot of time and we drew a lot of
attention to ourselves from the community over this thing and I think that
nobody was shown in a good light at the end results. Not us. Definitely
not us and not the Council either because we weren't together on our act.
That just gives people fuel for criticism and ridicule and things that we
don't need.
Mady: The only thing that I can see good coming out of this is the fact
that since four months from now we'll be having an election and two of the
members on that body will not be there and one other one mayor may not be
there so we will have an opportunity to see fit next year to bring this
back up again.
Boyt: We could send a message to the Council saying, you directed us to
do these three things. Close the parking in there. Watch the Public
Safety comments on it and then evaluate it. We did that and you threw it
~out the window. You wasted our time. Don't direct us to do those things.
Watson: The problem is, the Mayor perceives this as something that we
did. Not that the Council directed it done but something that the Park
and Recreation Commission created out of our heads and decided to push
this thing through. They don't think the Council has any...their wheels
are all on just fine and we look like a bunch of horses petoots because
they think we did it.
Mady: Remember Dale Geving telling us how he had to, if he wanted to go
down to the park and couldn't figure out where to park so he drove up to
Carol's house and parked in front of Carol's house.
Watson: He sat in front of my house and said, it is too far down there
and I said, Dale, if it is too far from my house to the park, then you
shouldn't even be considering going down there because you are frail.
Boyt:
we've
Clark said we're not going to spend any money on this park until
studied these issues and opened it up to the public.
Mady:
So w~'re not spending any money on the park.
Watson: I've got to give those residents credit for wanting it that
badly.
~Mady: They got credit last night for their park would be nice. How well
. kept it was. It's in nice condition and I just about thought, what's
going on here. We've got park maintenance staff who's cutting the grass.
Trimming the trees. picking up the trash and emptying the trash cans.
Park and Recreation Commission Meeting
July 12, 1988 - Page 32
.....""
Sietsema: And Public Safety removing three boats.
Schroers: Almost anything that comes up, at least at first, the general
public and residents, we don't want it there. We don't like this. This
sort of thing sets a precedent for things. All we have to do is don't
enforce it and go up there and raise hell and we'll get what we want.
Mady: Be prepared fellas.
Boyt: Are any of the rest of you interested in having that letter sent?
Mady: Yes. We will be meeting with some of those same residents at our
next meeting on the Lake Lucy boat access and they're going to come up, my
feeling is they're going to come up strongly against the thing right from
the start and what we're going to have to do is right from the start tell
them, Council has directed that we look at this. We are telling you that
you have to look at it and this is what you have to do.
Watson: I think what we get is we know that Lake Lucy boat access is
something that Tom wants very badly. I want a letter to read, at the
meeting to those people, or he should come and say it because otherwise
they're going to think, well here we go again, making it up as they go
along. ......."
Sietsema: We have a resolution by the Council that says we're directed to
do this.
Mady: Last night after the meeting asking Mr. Geving and Mr. Hamilton to
attend the meeting tonight and explain to us why they said what they said.
Schroers: ...the thing with the boat access, we were just dealing with
four little parking spots before. Now we're talking about on-going
traffic in and out of the neighborhood for this boat access.
Robinson moved, Watson seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in
favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned.
Submitted by Lori Sietsema
Park and Recreation Coordinator
Prepared by Nann Opheim
~