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PRC 1987 05 26 PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION SPECIAL MEETING ,... MAY 26, 1987 Park and Recreation Commission members and Staff assembled at the Greenwood Shores Park at 6:45 p.m. to discuss future development of the park. Chairman Lynch called the special meeting to order at 7:45 p.m.. MEBERS PRESENT: Curt Robinson, Mike Lynch, Jim Mady and Larry Schroers MEMBERS ABSENT: Ed Hasek and Carol Watson STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Recreation Assistant and Don Ashworth, City Manager. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Curt Robinson moved, Larry Schroers seconded to approve the Minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated May 5, 1987. All voted in favor and motion carried. ORDINANCE CODIFICATION PROCESS. Don Ashworth: The Park Commission acted to ask that the Sadd1ebrook development, Rick Murray's development over here on Kerber Blvd., that he include in that two trail systems which would be the peripheral road as well as three trails going through the heart of the development. That was well ~'nd fine. City Council actually adopted that recommendation. The question .:omes down to is who pays. In the past we have required trails to be dedicated as a part of developments. Derrick's development is a good. example. Most of those instances, the value of the trail itself is very minor so u-sua1ly the guy will start out saying I should get a credit for the land I'm giving for the trail. By the time you work out the numbers, it's such a small number that you just say forget it. We're going to charge you the full amount. Lynch: Isn't that normally an easement Don? Where we don't give credit for easements unless it's unusual like that conservation easement? I don't ever remember giving credit for a trail easement. Whether it was on an outlot or through the majority of the development. Don Ashworth: They are being dedicated. In fact, the one in Fox HOllow, that's dedicated so it goes right on the plat. It shows up just as a street would. Lynch: On an easement then, that's city property? Don Ashworth: That becomes city property in an instance like that. It can be obtained through easements and typically you would pay for an easement per see As far as recording it and making sure that a future generation would know that it's there, the dedication route is probably better. It shows on the plat forever. It's findable. An easement is recorded with the land. You have to go down and try following through that easement. It's ~ lot all the difficult but unless somebody literally remembered it, they can Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 2 I"""" ~et lost. Issuing the Saddlebrook one, we turned it back over to the City Attorney's office as you can see the conclusion out of there. He feels very uncomfortable requiring that the developer be required to install a trail. Especially if we do not have an adopted trail plan that would show the particular trails that we're asking for in that addition are part of an overall system. If you have such a plan, a developer comes in, his piece of land is one that you showed a trail through, you have a pretty good basis for requiring that he carry out that installation. Even at that it becomes very questionable whether or not you can force him to do that without giving him a park credit. He has paid these costs and reasonably he can receive a park credit for those. An alternative suggested by the Attorney is the adoption of a special charge that would go along with every building permit. The fee they put through in Lakeville is $135.00 per single family residential unit and that money is dedicated solely to carrying out trail construction. It is an amount up and above the park charge in that city. Lakeville is a leader in that area. There really aren't any other cities who have adopted that system to date. Our City Attorney is also the City Attorney for Lakeville and when we confronted him with this problem, in other words the Park Commission and City Council both feel that Saddlebrook should pay their fair share of trail construction. How can we accomplish this? He's the one who came back in saying that I think the easiest and best way is to establish an ordinance that would establish a trail charge in the same way you collect a charge for each house for park purposes. I believe the Council is in favor of at least the philosophy of what we're trying to ~o, accomplish trail construction. I think they are looking forward to you ~mpleting your work with Mark to come up with a plan and that will reinforce any type of charging system that would go along with it. We are at a unique point right now in that the City is just finishing our codification process. We started a year ago looking at everyone of our ordinances. Taking out redundancy. Any areas that were in conflict with State Law, we took those out. Any sections that were covered by State Law, we took those out and simply referenced the State Law. Any sections that were just over ly wordy and not really needed, we removed all of tha t. I finished now the third work session with the City Council. We are literally done with that process. The hearing process that you go through and the codification review is really the same as adopting an ordinance to begin with. In other words, any ordinance in there is fair game for change. In terms of the Park Ordinance, we have significantly pared that down. You got rid of a lot of tha formula stuff that was in the front. It really just comes down to the charge for park purposes is boom and then the amount. You have the dedication features and you can accept money and some of the other things you have in there. But we are at a point where we could include an ordinance that would establish this trail charge. In other words, just as a part of the review process, the City Council could say yes, that's a part of our ordinances. We want that in there. I guess I pose the question back to you. If you endorse this concept, I can pass that along to City Council. If they agree, we literally can incorporate in the codified ordinance, this ordinance from Lakeville eventually changed to Chanhassen, which would adopt this charging system. In effect would be in place by the time Saddlebrook came in to actually get permits so they in fact would be r'lying for those trails. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 3 Lynch: Sadd1ebrook would be the first time we ever asked a developer to install the trails wouldn't it? ....."., Don Ashworth: Yes. Lynch: What happened there? Just a 1ightbu1b went on in somebody's head and said let's ask for this because we didn't ask for it. Don Ashworth: That was the interpretation. The question was, after the City Council meeting Rick Murray called and said what did they just do? The way the Council worded it and I sincerely believe that Boyt and Johnson walked out of that meeting feeling that they had made a motion that was requiring this developer to build those trails. Lynch: They didn't realize that that hadn't been done in the past few developments or they just decided to start doing it? Don Ashworth: I think that in making their motion and the way the motion went through, they were saying we want to have him install these trails. I didn't read in the Park Commission recommendation but if you look at your own motion there, it's really not clear. You wanted to see trails constructed as a part of the per imeter on both Kerber and CR 17 and three trails on the interior. Lynch: money. fund? We should have said land set aside. The question is about the Let's say you have $150.00. Is that money going to be a separate ....",., Don Ashworth: Yes. Lynch: Will it be localized? Don Ashworth: I wouldn't recommend it. What you've done in the past, your park charge, you received the monies by neighborhood so if you ask Lori at any particular time, she can tell you how you've done in a particular year as far as from a neighborhood but we have never said that we are going to spend dollar for dollar from that neighborhood. To the extent possible, we're going to be putting monies back into the neighborhood and generally that's a growth area and they are going to have a higher need for parks. Lynch: I wouldn't want to see it localized to the degree that we do on our books. I just want to see it dumped into a fund because the most expensi ve trails to put in are going to be trails where there is nothing. So we don't get any contractor help in grading. The Lake Lucy Road is going in and some of those are real freebes where things are going on but where things aren't going on. Let's say we're going to go up the sewer grade between Chaparral and Lotus. Something like that's going to cost money. You're going to have to have dirt moved and bulldozer in there and that's going to get expensive so I wouldn't even want a tracking process because I don't want somebody to come in and say our subdivision paid this much and we want tarred trails. We want first class because we paid this money. You know what I'm talking ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 4 ,... ~bout. The other guys didn't pay much so they're going to have bark. I would just as soon not be too accountable. Don Ashworth: Roger is famous for coming up with very simple ordinances and I would not doubt that this will be a one liner. He'll adopt it by resolution so he'll say, it was hereby established a special fund to account for monies received for park trails as set out under Resolution Then there will be a yearly resolution which will change the amount for the trail system. Lynch: I would really be for that because I know embarking on this trail system is going to be an expensive operation and anytime we're going to try and get this much money from Council, the City Council is just as well to have some sort of revenue applied to it and they are going to be expensive to maintain as Eden Prairie is finding out. So some sort of a steady revenue as the City builds up will be appreciated I'm sure. Schroers: Is there a formula of some kind that's going to worked out that says the trail here is going to be this long so we're going to have to assess this much to the cost of each single family unit to cover the cost of the trail? How are we going to come up with... Lynch: It's going to be a flat rate to keep it legal. ~dy: Otherwise you have to defend it. Schroers: So the money wouldn't necessarily be adequate to cover the cost of putting a trail through there if in fact you did want to use that money in that area to put that trail there. Lynch: I don't think you're going to be able to localize it like that Larry. One thing we have to make sure here is that the Council doesn't say fine, we're going to get $150.00 a permit but that's the trail money. That's where all the trail money is going to come from. That's not where all the trail money is going to come from so we have to make sure that we say. . Schroers: This is just going to be an additional tool to acquire funds for our trail system? Robinson: And that would never cover a trail. Even $100.00 to $150.00. Lynch: What was the figure? $40,00.00 per mile. Mady: At least it's a start. Lynch: You're looking at 1,000 housing units going in. Schroers: And it is the builder who absorbs that. ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 5 uon Ashworth: Really, developers don't like the front end cost type of thing so they really don't fight things like this because it doesn't hurt them that much. Some people are developer and builders but most of them, the builder really isn't the developer. '---' Lynch: The $15~.~~ is applied to the cost of a new house today is... Don Ashworth: Well, they wouldn't count that. I would guess you would take in $3~,~~~.~~ to $4~,~~~.~~ per year if that were dedicated. And again, we adopt a trail system, in all liklihood if we want to get it off the ground, we're going to have to take in back in the form of a referendum. I would suggest that we again go through that listing and figure out what's achievable. In other words, what things we can do with State Aid dollars. with the tax increment dollars. Which trail sections can be paid for by other than park dollars. Then we take those areas that are going to be really highly wanted by neighborhoods, the Chaparral, Minnewashta, whatever, and include those in the referendum and then those trails that are necessary for the overall well being of the community, we use dollars such as this to get those done so we don't jack up that referendum so high that no one is going to vote for it. That's how I would see the game plan coming down if I were to try to create one. Lynch: For a park system as large as ours, for the facilities we have to offer for the population, this community has a very small amount of money in ~hose parks. I've never been able to figure out why we've been such grant ,inners over the years. We take over some of these bigger towns with large~ populations and I would say greater need but I wasn't going to say anything. Don Ashworth: I think one of the mistakes they make is not really looking at the rules and what it is they are going to fund. You have so many things to do, why go out and push for something that's a loser. Go out and find out what it is they are willing to spend their money on and then look in your list to find those things that potentially will meet it. If you do that, you win. Lynch: We've been successful at it over the years. Fortunately, with things we can utilize. If you go to Bloomington and don't have any lakes to access, there were 4 or 5 years where if you didn't have a lake access in the plan, they wouldn't even look at it. We just happened to have a lot of lakes without access. The right place at the right time. Don Ashworth: The one I never want to talk about is when we got the $9~,~~~.~~ for botchy ball court that are dangling over at the hockey rinks. Robinson: What do we think the amount should be? Lynch: I think maybe that's one of those practice routines. I think that's something Council and Roger should look at and say, if Lakeville does this then we can get away with it. He's probably pretty familiar with that. He orobably knows if they have had it contested or not. ~. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 6 " Don Ashworth: I'll look. I didn't see what their park charge is but what we may want to do is set it as a percentage of the park charge. That way, when you fight an issue, then the other one falls into place. I'm guessing one-fourth to one-third would be somewhere in line. Mady moved, Robinson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council adopt a Trail Ordinance similar to Lakeville charging a flat fee against new building permits. All voted in favor and motion carried. SITE PLAN REVIEW, EIGHT ACRE WOOD ADDITION, ROBERT SOMMER, APPLICANT. Robinson: This is for trail purposes again? Hoffman: Yes. It's a fairly small development. 8.5 acres. It's near the school up there, Minnetonka West Jr. High. What Lori recommended was pretty much a trail easement along Chaska Road, 20 foot, which basically right now is just a ditch in there. Then an easement along the sewer easement, 12 foot, and then along Lot 15. Down here this is either houses right now or future development. I'm not quite sure but it's either lots or it will be lotted and the school is down in this area. Whatever would be the possibility of gettillJ a trail down through this lot and then the other lot that comes up here to the school is what she proposed for that. """" ....chroers: Why does she want 20 foot on Chaska Road and only 12 foot coming all the way in? Lynch: There's a 12 foot sewer easement. Hoffman: Then in discussion with the City Planner, this is fairly steep grade in here so as far as building a trail there, there would be some difficulty and they had looked at going along Lot 3 then along Lot 2 also where you run into this which is an existing home and garage and then somewhere behind that garage wouldn't be the best idea either. Lynch: How close is that garage to it? Hoffman: To that border? Mady: That is a steep grade. Hoffman: Probably 35 feet. Robinson: It could be 25 feet from those houses in Lots 8 and 9 though too. Mady: Anytime you run into going between two lots you have a problem. Schroers: To me, it seems to make a lot of sense to use utility routes like ~wer lines and that sort of thing to get the most use out of an area that = can. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 7 ~ Robinson: Except that is a heck of a grade there. Hoffman: The bad grade is between houses. I'm not sure how needed it's really going to be. Chaska Road is going to funnel. If you could come down Melody Hill, that will get you into the school without having to cut between because if you go with a trail along Lot 15, there again you're going to be going between houses again. Robinson: Come down Murray Hill? Mady: I would rather you stay away from houses if we can at all possibly do that. Robinson: Why not come down Chaska Road to Melody Hill? Hoffman: We probably don't have an easement along, I would guess there are about four existing lots there already. I'm not sure if those are built in or not. Lynch: There's a home built on there? On Melody Hill? Mady: Exactly where is the school here? Is that 10? Hoffman: 10 would be the school. As far as bringing in an easement along 15 into the other lot directly south. ---' Mady: That would be the ideal. Lynch: Those lots aren't built on. We can get an easement when they come up. If I remember right, that's just woods. Mady: I'm trying to remember. I can't remember seeing a house up in there. Hoffman: This is pretty heavily wooded in here. Mady: You've got the school and that's it right there. Lynch: I thought there was, right where it says hill on this thing, I thought those were built in because that's the back soccer field and you look across there and there are some homes there. Mady: That might all be developed in there because those look like platted lots. Schroers: What's this dark line behind there? Is that an existing trail? Hoffman: I believe that's the border of the Minneapolis MUSA line. Schroers: Is this trail intended to be just a local neighborhood use or are Ie going to try and connect this into something else? --' Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 8 ~ ..offman: Just something to follow that neighborhood down to the school grounds to give them some access to a recreation area. Lynch: I just don't see any use for subdivision and then back out again. using Melody Road and Murray Hill. streets. that Chaska Road into the middle of the I think Jim's got the best idea with It's just little bitty neighborhood Mady: That's a situation where it would be best if you could get a 5 foot sidewalk along the side of the road. The youngest kids and the older ones are smart enough to stay out of the way of cars hopefully. Schroers: Is that an off-road situation then? Hoffman: Yes, it would be classified off-road since it would be off the main road but right next to it would be a situation where it's expanded. Lynch: It would be real nice to have an off-road on Chaska Road but there's already too much of that developed ever to get that through there unless they just go through and come down. It would be nice to have one that goes all the way down to the Regional Park. Mady: What happens to Melody Road? Does that just dead end there? ~nch: Yes, it just goes back in there and quits. Mady: Into the schoolyard. Hoffman: It appears that there's a big lot there and the street has never been able to go through. Lynch: There are the houses on the east side of the school. That's all developed because you can see those through the trees there. Hoffman: That's where the difficulty comes in with these people using the sidewalk out onto Murray Hill then they come down south on Murray Hill and they can't get back across to the school grounds. Mady: Part of our access plan is to put a trail along CR 17, Galpin Blvd. at some point in time. We could funnel all through that cul-de-sac up to Murray Hill Road but I'm not sure where we go from there. RObinson: We came through across that, take Melody Hill all the way across that vacant lot... Lynch: You will be able to come out of there and take Murray down to Melody Hill just up from Melody Hill Road right onto the school grounds. Mady: We have an option on Melody Hill and it's not something in front of '1S. This guy has no ownership on Melody Hi 11. ",.-... Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 9 .;chroer s: I thi n k tha t we could maybe ask for the easement the way tha t Lori wanted it and then stipulate that if it becomes available that we would like to have an option to ask for an easement along Melody Hill. It certainly wouldn't hurt anything to change your plan there if an option like that would come available on Melody Hill. Just leave that easement set to go through there, it certainly wouldn't hurt anything right? ~ Mady: As long as that easement is going to be permanent there anyway for utilities, if we ask for it for trails, it's always a possibility then. It's not like we're making him give us something. It's something he's al ready had to give anyway so it just keep the door open for us if we have no other option in that area to utilize it. It might just be best to go with what Lori and Todd are recommending. Lynch: Remember though, if the City Council starts to dedicate this, it's going to start costing us money. The sewer easement won't cost us anything but if instead of an easement they're picking up a dedication along Chaska Road and across Outlot B and across Lots 14 and 15, then it's going to cost us bucks so we can't be too frivilous. Schroers: But we're asking for an easement, not a dedication right? Lynch: Yes. C:chroers: So we're going to be asking for fee in lieu of dedication along ith the easement right? ~ Lynch: What Don was saying tonight is that in some of these cases where they actually are going to have to set the land aside, that the Council has been asking for dedicated land and we've got to give them credit. Mady: And now if they put in a trail ordinance as we recommended tonight, that's something where they're going to start trading off. We're not going to get that money, they'll trade off land when they come to these types of situations so I guess we've got to make sure it's something we really want. Robinson: Where would we go once we come in between Lots 8 and 9? Hoffman: Onto the street. Robinson: And over to Murray Hill Road? Mady: You can't get to the school that way. Lynch: Yes you can. You can down Murray Hill before you hit Melody Hill. Mady: You would to somehow get between lots. Hoffman: But then Melody Hill doesn't go through. obinson: There's that gap inbetween Melody Hill there. .."""", Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 10 ,........ doffman: It doesn't continue through. Mady: You're not going to be able to get there from here. Lynch: I thought the way this looked that they were going to match them up, you're right. Mady: I've got a feeling that that piece of property is already owned by someone and it's not... Schroers: That Murray Hill just kind of looks like it dead ends in a cul- de-sac down there and you might have to cut a hole through someone's house. Lynch: I would like to know a little bit more about this one Todd. I would like to know if they are going to connect Melody Hill. If they are going to connect Melody Hill, no problem. Schroers: Where are you talking about connecting? Hoffman: Where that gap that's missing there in Melody Hill. Schroers: Connect Melody Hill to Murray? Hoffman: Melody Hill. "..".., =hroers: That's a pretty nice big lot there and there's nothing there now that you know? Lynch: On that corner, I don't know. I had thought that where it says hill, I had thought there were some houses on there. Robinson: end. I'm sure you're right Mike. There are houses down at that north Lynch: But I don't know about that lot that Larry's talking about. That great big one. Robinson: No, I don't either. Schroers: It just seems to me like we can't sit here and make a decision on something we don't know about. Mady: It might be best to table this until next meeting. Lynch: Can you find out if there is a road right-of-way across there, Melody Hill, and if there are any plans to open that up? If there's a house on that lot? I'll try to get out there and see. Robinson: Are we pressed for time on this for anything? ,........ Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 11 ...,/ rloffman: On this development. This is really the only reason this meeting came about. Mady: I think it would be something we normally would look at next time anyway. Schroers: This meeting was almost specifically for this? Hoffman: The only reason I called it pretty much, I asked Jo Ann if she wanted this one to get passed this meeting and she said yes so that's really the only item that needed any much approval for this meeting. Mady: Put it on early on the agenda next time. Schroers: I guess I don't see, if we went with the way Lori had it proposed and Todd, it really wouldn't make any difference that much if they opened Murray Hill Road or not because you're just going to run it down the street anyway. Lynch: We weren't asking for that. She asked for one down Chaska Road, up the sanitation grade, out along the street didn't she and down Lot 15. We're going to have to give up some money for that. The one down along Lot 15 is about the only thing I can see that of all those things that we would ever use other than maybe Chaska Road down Lot 15 to get to the school. We ~on't need that if that Melody Lane is or will go through. Then all I woulc~ ant would be the Chaska Road and forget the rest of this stuff. You can take the sanitation grade because it's there but on a street that's going to have maybe five houses, if that would fit three more, you might get that trail along here. Mady: By the looks of this along Outlot B, that's already a plotted lot that empties out on Murray Hill Road and it faces Murray Hill Road. There probably not going to be any houses against that street. That's not going to provide access to anybody on either side. Lynch: So you're saying that's one lot. Mady: That's already emptying out on Murray Hill Road by the looks of this. Lynch: And that lot is not wide enough to take an easement there. Mady: They are deep lots but they're not wide lots. Lynch: That's what 80 feet maybe. Hoffman: They are 90 feet. Mady: You can put a nice house there but you're not going to have a lot of room on either side. You throw 45-50 feet for a house and that leaves you 20 feet on either side, you can't steal too much more room from that guy. ....."" Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 12 "..... uynch: I don't want to move on this tonight until I find out more about it. Mady moved, Lynch seconded to table the Site Plan Review for Eight Acre Wood Addition until the next meeting to obtain more information. All voted in favor and motion carried. PARK AND RECREATION COMISSION MEETING SCHEDULE. Hoffman: Just to talk a little about the meeting schedule. The discussion on meeting the second and fourth Mondays or the first and third Tuesdays of each month instead of the first Tuesday. Robinson: I kind of like that myself. Mady: That's fine with me. Lynch: I'm kind of between a rock and hard spot right now. My scout schedule is just about to get totally rearranged so I won't know until next fall. I hung up my scout master shoes and now the council facilities committee with all their camps but they are screwing their schedule around so I don't know what's going to happen. Robinson: You can always change it in the fall Mike. """ ynch: The first Tuesdays screwed me because I couldn't go to our district meetings so that will be nice so I can go to those and the third Thursday I can make that. It's just a matter of committee meetings but I'll know that later. Robinson moved, Mady seconded to set the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dates for the second and fourth Tuesday of each month beginning with June 9, 1987 as the first meeting. All voted in favor and motion carried. UPDATES: EASTER EGG HUNT Todd Hoffman thanked the Park Commissioners that volunteered for the Easter Egg Hunt. The event went very well with a lot of the pUblic participation. HERMAN FIELD Hoffman: Update on Herman Field. That's another thing that was set for the June 16th meeting. I'm not sure if Lori sent some correspondence out to those people but residents are planning on coming to that meeting. The last sentence indicates, I will schedule this item on the June agenda inviting the residents to voice their concern. ~nch: I've got a question here that you probably don't know the answer to. thought we had a pretty detailed feasibility study. It's a bound, with Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 13 -'" chree possible access routes and how much they cost and how long it takes to put them in, and any statutory problems we might have getting in here and there. What the hell do they mean by more detailed feasibility study? We paid for that one. A whole bunch. Mady: I got a feeling what it is they got some community involvement that didn't like the fact that we were putting a park in there. That's what I'm reading into this memo. Lynch: Everyone we've ever talked to up there wanted the park. Mady: That's been a couple years now. Lynch: That was last year. Robinson: Even when we talked about it at the Park and Rec Meeting there were some people there weren't there? Hoffman: Last meeting? Lynch: No, it was 6 or 8 months ago I think. Mady: It was late last summer. Qobinson: They have some opinions about the access. ...."" Mady: I think that might be what it is. They are having problems with where we're going to put the access. Part of the discussion was dealing with who was go i ng to pay for the access and some of those quest ions. Lynch: I know there were some funny things like there were two lots there so we assess them for the whole thing and that was hard to take. Mady: I don't like assessing people because they're not the ones who are going to benefit from it. As a matter of fact, they are going to be assessed for a road they don't need because they're not going to utilize it. They just walk across the property to get there. Lynch: Well, at any rate. Let us know what they decide to do there. PETS AND PARKS Lynch: We have a letter from Roberta Bloomberg on pets and park and publ ic property. This is like our friends at Greenwood Shores. Enforcement. Typically, we allow pets on trailways. I think if you went to the Minneapolis Park Board and said where do you have the majority of your pet problems incidents and they would say on the trails. What's neater for a dog going along and all this stuff is going by? Mady: The City has a leash law don't they throughout the whole city. ..."" Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 14 JlIIII"" Lynch: Yes. Mady: So every dog we saw tonight in the park was not supposed to be in the park and was supposed to have a leash and none of them had one. Lynch: And we saw two go by and a cat. Mady: I saw three actually. This was in Lake Ann if I recall. If you have your animal going through Lake Ann, you are going to be told. I've seen it happen more than once. Lynch: All the parks will eventually have that plaque that says what you can do and what you can't do. Mady: Mainly right now I think we have a problem with information not being available so people don't understand. Half the people are going to obey the law. Lynch: That reminds me, we were talking about signs. I thought we had a better sign at Greenwood Shores. Can we take some of that money out, the volleyball court is not going to fit and put a decent sign up there and maybe a few more rocks that are required? ~ady: Fix that gate up a little bit better. jchroers: Make a nice gate. That needs to be figured into the overall plan of parking there. Mady: It looked awful messy. Lynch: Have we gotten that money? That's passed on a budget hasn't it? Mady: They passed the budget but from my understanding, the Council is looking at it over again. In their late February meeting they approved it. We scaled it down for a couple of things in our February meeting and then they passed it. Our budget has been approved. From my understanding we can do just about what we want with those things we requested. Lynch: Let's send a memo of interest up to the Council. Tell them upon personal inspection of Greenwood Shores that the Park and Rec Commission determined that there was room for a totlot but not a volleyball court. We would intend to use some of the funds for the volleyball court to improve the signage and gate. RObinson: One of those little pipe gates similar to what we have on Lake Ann would do a better job than what they have now with a chain. Mady: I would also like to recommend that Staff implement the rules as they are. ",-. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 15 --"" Lynch: tell us. Just end that Todd by saying, if there is any concern on their part, It's a neat little park but it looks pretty shabby. Schroers: It could be nice. My thoughts on that park with the parking and everything is that that's going to add to the aesthetics of the park. If we do it nicely and neatly and that in turn would enhance and increase the value of the entire neighborhood. The word park itself indicates a place to park. A place where you can go and stop and get out of your car and just enjoy what's available there and you need to have that. I would kind of like to address this pet issue a little bit. Where are going with this? Are we just kind of recognizing the fact that we received a letter? Mady: That's pretty much all Lori included it for is just for your own information. Lynch: I assume somebody, I didn't look at the last part of it but that somebody on Staff, you guys going to work on it. She was in Lake Ann Park though. I would have liked to have seen somebody mention to her that it is illegal to have your pet in a city park. Schroers: The City has an ordinance in writing to that effect? That it is illegal? Lynch: Yes, it's one of the Park Ordinances that there's no pets. ....."" Jchroers: I wonder if we could look at revising that. That almost seems unfair. There are so many people that own pets that like to get out and walk with their pets. They are part of the family. What we have done in Hennepin parks is we have designated pet areas. Parts of trails that can be utilized for pets. I know that's opening a big can of worms here but it almost says to me that it's almost discriminatory that you can't take your pet along into the park. Lynch: The background on that originally Larry, when we did that, was the fact that, when we went through these original few park ordinances we have, the City Attorney came in and said his review of insurance cases. Schroers: For liability purposes. Lynch: Showed that one of the major liability problems was pets that were not on leashes in picnic and ball playing areas. Rover comes over and picks up a softball that you guys are playing with and you try to get it back from Rover and he takes your hand off. You are eating your hotdogs and Rover comes over and takes them off your plate, you smack Rover and he takes your hand off. You got Larry Jr. running around and the guy's 299 pound Chesapeake eats him. Schroers: I understand that but I think that leash laws should pretty much prevent most of that type of thing. ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 16 " Lynch: The problem was, we talked about this, and he said, okay, you have a picnic area and you have Rover on a 20 foot leash. Schroers: Revise the ordinance to state a 6 foot leash. Lynch: The reason it passed at that time and I don't think anybody, there was one guy on the committee at that time who had hunting dogs and he wanted to be able to go out and throw his dummy or shoot his dummy or things like that and everybody else sort of went along with the attorney where he said, if you just keep them out you're safe. If you allow them some, then you've got an enforcement problem and if you don't enforce it, then you've got a big problem because then you've got a law, you didn't enforce it, then the City is negligent. Then you've got a lawsuit. Schroers: When we're saying that. How about all these new proposed trails and stuff, is that going to be illegal to have your dog on these trails too? Lynch: That would be a separate question. Schroers: Because I'll tell you, in my neighborhood, I would guess that just on an average, this may be just overemphasizing things a little bit but there are probably about 3 dogs per house. That's the way it seems. My neighborhood is just saturated with dogs and almost everybody that I know, -part of what makes that a nice area is that you can take your dog along with """'--')ur kids and you can walk along that nice park of that trail along Kerber Jlvd. and people really enjoy doing that. It gets used a lot and I think that we're going to have an awful lot of angry residents, me included, if you can't take the dog along when you go for a hike or a job along the city trail. Lynch: The thing that screws you up on a trail system, unless it's an internal trail system, if you had an internal trail system like at Lake Ann, say you had a bunch of trails there, that's controllable and you can logically say that's enough for the joggers and what have you but when you have a trail along side a road, that is just a public thoroughfare, it's pretty hard to say you can't walk your dog down the side of the road. If you can't walk your dog down the side of the road, where can you walk your dog? You can't. Schroers: That's right. As long as they're going to allow dogs in the City, you're going to have to allow them to be able to go somewhere. A lot of people don't have big enough yards so that can exercise the dog in the yard or they just plain don't want to. When they want to go out on the trail, they want to take their pet along and I think that it's reasonable to allow that as long as they keep them under control. Lynch: That's something we're going to have to discuss. Robinson: Do we know what the other cities are doing or could you find out ~ometime before the next meeting? What Eden priairie for example. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 17 Hoffman: What they are doing in their parks and on their trail systems? ..."",., Robinson: On their trail systems. Then if we allow them on the trail system then we better address the parks again. Mady: One of the concerns Lori has always had with dogs in the park is the mess they leave behind. Parks are basically grass areas. You can't clean it up. Schroers: Generally, be it a dog or a horse or whatever, when you take your animal out, the first thing he does is get excited and that's the first thing he does. He takes care of his business and basically, he'll do that before he even gets to the park. My dog does that before he gets out of the yard. Fortunately, he's trained to go down into the swamp. Mady: But they do that when they drive into the park and their dog gets out and that's the first thing they do when they drive their dog into the park. Lynch: Yes, I've seen it in the city parks again and again and again. Schroers: I totally am in agreement that we need to keep them out of high use areas. Like picnic areas and beaches, there's no reason for them to be there but along the trail systems and along the roads and that sort of thing. ~ynch: I don't see how you can stop them. I don't see how you could police.-' it to keep them off the trail system. If you've got a trail alongside the road, the cop pulls over and says you can't have your dog on a trail. He says, okay, I'll walk in the road. Then you've got people in the road and then you don't want to present the police with something that really isn't enforceable or really is arbitrary because then they won't enforce it. * A tape break occurred at this point in the meeting. Schroers: I signed a petition and I don't know where it went to but I have some real concern there because the cars coming down this hill, from the long term residents who live back here and are so used to coming down this hill, they think it's a race track. They're coming down there 50 mh and there's just all these houses here now have little tiny kids and they've got dogs and they've got tricycles and they've got everything else and they're always out in the street. Every time the tires squeal my heart just stops. There is somebody is going to get clobbered right there. Lynch: What are you talking about there, like a sidewalk? Schroers: Yes, sidewalk, off-road trail. Basically a sidewalk from CR 17 up to the corner of that park because there really is no place for the people. Carver Beach Road is narrow and it's really heavily traveled and it's very fast so when people are walking their dogs, they're just walking ;n the evening. --'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 18 " uynch: That's your neighborhood, take a run back down that street and just take names of the people you talk to. Ask them would you agree to have a sidewalk or little trail? Mady: A 5 foot sidewalk along the street. Schroers: I think every neighbor already signed that petition. Lynch: See if you can find that sucker. Mady: I don't think it ever came to us. Schroers: I think that it maybe went to the City Planner or to the City Engineer or something and not the Park Commission. Mady: How long ago did you do it? Schroers: Roughly a year. I signed the petition and the lady that was bringing it around said that everyone that she talked to has been very cooperative and said, yes, they would want it. Lynch: Certainly she kept a copy. Schroers: I guess I will persue that and try to find out where that went but ~was just wondering as a commission if we can... Mady: I know two of the trails that we're going to be looking at next month are going to be Minnewashta which is the same situation. It's a safety situation and Laredo Road which again, is a safety situation. Schroers: I would welcome any commission member or anyone from the City that has any questions whether or not there is a legitimate need for that to come and spend 15 minutes in my yard and just watch the cars come down that hill. There will be no question in your mind. Mady: I have the same situation on Frontier Trail. In front of my house, for whatever reason, they think there's about a block and a half that they can get up to about 45 mph. They make the curves gentle enough that they can make it with it being a little bit of fun. Stop signs at both ends of the road but they can get up to about 45 in front of my house. I also would like to see a sidewalk put in there. It's already a street trail and I would like to see them go a 5 foot sidewalk in there to take care of it. Schroers: That would make a lot of people happy and I think it would eliminate a problem. I have called the pOlice a couple of times and said, we've got a race track going on here and he'll sit by the corner and he'll write tickets until he gets another call and then he has to leave. It doesn't seem to be much of a deterrent. ~nch: People develop habits. You're thinking about something else. Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 19 ~chroers: But there are new houses built there and their driveways just .~ slope down into the street and these kids are on their little tricycles and three wheelers and they are coasting right down into the street and cars are coming down this hill and it's just really a bad situation. Lynch: Why don't you see if you can resurrect that petition and call Todd, get him copies of it and put it on the agenda for next meeting. Hoffman: I have one more question. On this meeting date, June 9th and the 23rd, I'm exactly sure all the reasons why Lori asked for the 16th. That would take care of the two meetings. As far as the June 9th meeting, I'm only here two days, three days now while Lori is gone and I'll be gone the Thursday and Friday of that week, June 4th and 5th, so I'm going to have some conflict in there trying to get a packet out so I'm wondering if we can't consider going back to just that one meeting in June or is that what we're trying to get away from? Schroers: The reason we're trying to go with two meetings instead of one is because we haven't been able to cover all the material adequately in one meeting. We've been sitting here until midnight and we're still not giving everything as much attention probably. Mady: In June we have to prioritize the trails and that's not going to be a quick, easy deal. It's going to take some time and discussion. .inch: We could use I'm sure a couple hours that night, which is all we ~ want to spend, with Mark on a trail system. Mady: That's basically going to be Mark talking to us and just going back and forth. It's not going to require much in lines of a packet. Lynch: Do this Todd, get a hold of Mark. Find out if he's going to be ready by that time. He may have told Lori he can't be ready until the 16th. If he can be ready the 9th, let's get started on it the 9th and then maybe try to finish it up the 23rd and give us a call to see which night we should go with it. Right now we'll go with 9 and 23 just to maintain uniformity with the 2nd and 4th Tuesday and if that's not going to work we'll do something different. Mady: I have one other item on the Commission presentation. A short one of the 4th of July celebration up here on the playground. When we have people up here at night, the area around the hockey rinks, there's a gap between the hockey board and the band of about 2 to 3 feet. I know last year when I was walking around with my daughter, I was aware of it, but at night when it's dark here and the fireworks are going, you don't see that hole and you could fall between the hockey boards. For whatever reason, when they built it, they dug the hockey rinks down so it's about a two foot space in there, there should be at least a snow fence put up there. Especially for that 4th of July thing. --' Park and Rec Commission Meeting May 26, 1987 - Page 20 "'" Lynch: We can put that up temporarily. We put all that snow fence up for the dance and all that stuff. Todd, I want you to take a note, check to see if that gate's going up and down at Greenwood Shores and call me at the office maybe Thursday or tomorrow if you find out. Hoffman: When the resident called that I spoke to and he said it was supposed to be up all the time so I called Dale and asked is that gate up and he indicated no. Then I went through the Minutes because he mentioned that you had said that, I went through and checked and you said it should be going up at 10:00 and then coming back down in the morning. So then I talked to Dale and said is that happening and he said no. Lori called in that day, the day she was leaving for vacation and I told her about that and she said if it's down now, just leave it down so all I have to do is talk to Dale and it will be locked and opened. Lynch: Tell Dale to do it and if there is any problem with it, let me know and I call Don and I'll get it done. Robinson moved, Schroers seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Lori Sietsema "park and Recreation Coordinator ~epared by Nann Opheim I""