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PRC 1987 10 27 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING ~OCTOBER 27, 1987 Vice Chairman Mady called the meeting to order. COMMISSION MEMBERS PRESENT: Larry Schroers, Carol Watson, Jim Mady, Curt Robinson, Mike Lynch and Sue Boyt COMMISSION MEMBERS ABSENT: Ed Hasek STAFF PRESENT: Lori Sietsema, Park and Recreation Coordinator and Bob Seller, Van Doren-Hazard-Stallings, Inc. HERMAN FIELD FEASIBILITY AND PUBLIC INFORMATION. Public Present: Name Address Delores Ziegler Kelly Ziegler Kim Ziegler Betty Lang Don and Shirley Livingston ".......,Marcia Scheferli Ken Lang Arthur Kimber Robert Wagner Ralph H. Livingston Rhonda Studek Gene A. Conner Gary Reed Pat Huttner Dick Brown Yvonne Brown Tom Schoenecker Darrell Hinkler D.O. Hansen 6441 Oriole Avenue 6480 Oriole Avenue 6480 Oriole Avenue 2631 Forest Avenue 2621 Orchard Lane 325 George Street, Excelsior 2631 Forest Avenue 2820 Tanagers Lane 2511 Orchard Lane 2631 Orchard Lane 2611 Orchard Lane 2521 Orchard Lane 2460 West 64th Street 2660 Orchard Lane 2630 Orchard Lane 2630 Orchard Lane 2820 Sandpiper Terrace 6345 Minnewashta Woods Drive 108 Pioneer Trail Lori Sietsema: This item is back to us from the City Council. Originally, to give you a little history on Herman Field, we acquired the park in 1984-1985 we developed a master park plan which is this plan back here. Shortly after that plan was agreed upon, we did a preliminary feasibility study on our access off of Oriole Avenue and we found that there might be some problems with it so we asked Van Doren-Hazard- Stallings to do a feasiblity study. I'm just going to have Bob go through the different feasibility studies that have been done and what has happened up until this point. ~'Bob Sellers: To get everybody up to date because it's been several reports in the process. As Lori stated, the Master Plan for the park was Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 2 developed in 1984. At that time the Oriole Avenue access was identifed as the access to the park and then some further investigation did turn up some problems with that location. There's a major drainageway that goes through there that would make it costly to put culverts in and then there were also some soil problems in that drainageway. So at that time the staff had us do an access location study where we were to identify other possible accesses to the park. This study was done at that time and we identified three possible access locations. Forest Avenue, the Oriole Lane and then we looked at one off of TH 41. That one in both reports would determine to be not feasible and was dropped from further consideration so the ones that went on to Council were the Oriole Lane and Forest Avenue. This report was then presented to the City Council. The recommendation from this report was that the Forest Avenue location be pursued and that a 20 foot gravel top access be constructed from the end of existing Forest Avenue into the park. When that report was presented to the Council they had noted that portions of both the Oriole Lane and Forest Avenue access were within existing right-of-ways so they wanted to know that if that portion was improved to city street standards and utilities installed, if it could be assessed to the benefitting properties. That brings us up to the feasibility report that we have before us this evening. Our feasibility study was based on information in the access location reports. We only looked at the alternatives that were in that report. When we looked at the alternatives, the criteria we used was one, that it provide access to the park. Two, that it provide access to previously landlocked properties. Three, that utilities could be extended in there for future developments and that the costs for those improvements to the benefitting properties be in line with costs for similar projects. If you take a look at the Forest Avenue alternative and the only portions of this that the access was considered in this study would be the portion that would be constructed to current city standards and utilities installed. The cost did not include any cost for extending access from that street into the park. The Forest Avenue was approximately 225 feet in length. It would extend from the end of the improved Forest Avenue down to where an access road would go into the park. That street would be constructed to bituminous top, 28 feet wide with the rolled bituminous curb off the street which would be compatible with the type of streets that are in the area. Utilities would be extended from the existing utilities in Forest Avenue, through the length of new construction with stubs out so they could be extended. There would be some storm sewer which basically falls into outlets. The storm sewer would be installed in this street and the drainage would go down along the access road into the park. The cost for this alternative is estimated to be $42,000.00. This is the Oriole Lane alternative. Approximately 400 feet long and it would extend from the intersection of Oriole Lane, existing Oriole Lane and 64th Street down to where the right-of-way for Forest Avenue would be. Again, it would be constructed to a 28 foot bituminous top with the rolled curb similar to the existing streets in the area. Water and sanitary sewer would be extended here and stubbed out for future extension of Forest Avenue. As stated before, there is a major drainageway that flows through here. That is proposed to be picked up in the storm sewer system here, brought down in a -,' -' ....." Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 3 ". temporary outlet in the Forest Avenue right-of-way in the existing drainage swale. There would be some soil corrections involved with this one through this area and there would be extensive storm sewer culvert work on this alternative. The cost for this alternative is estimated to be $80,800.00. This brings us to the cost for the assessments for this. Background into this, normal method of assessing streets would be on a front linear foot basis for the abutting properties. In this one sense, the City is gaining access to the park, it was felt that the City was also a benefitting party and the street and storm sewer costs were then divided equally among the benefitting property owners and the City. Normal utility, sanitary sewer and water installations are divided among the benefitting properties. We attempted to make a determination of future lots that could be divided from these properties. On Forest Avenue it said that the Lang property with one additional lot could be for that. For this study three lots could have immediate access if this street were installed so that was the basis for the assessments on Forest Avenue. On Oriole Lane, here the Reed property was recently subdivided so there would be one additional assessable lot here. Ellsworth, in terms of this lot would be an assessable lot and then there would be an access to this lot down here so that was the case for assessments on this alternative. Broken down, on Forest Avenue, the City would share in the grading of streets and storm drainage costs and that would come to $7,400.00. The other ones were broken down equally per lot at one additional lot of $12,335.00. The Wills property with three lots was ~?23,245.00 for those. The Oriole Lane, again the City would share in the grading of the street and storm drainage cost and additional right-of-way costs. The existing right-of-way on Oriole is 40 feet. The minimum right-of-way width for the residential street is 40 feet. We would recommend that the additional 10 feet of right-of-way be purchased. That would also help save some of the stand of trees that are along the Reed property. The City share of this one, the City would pick up the right- of-way cost, is $15,000.00. Each of the three lots along this one would be $21,950.00. As part of this would be the reasonableness of the assessments for these properties and the average assessment for projects of thi s nature throughout the Ci ty are bet ween $12,000.00 and $14,000.00. Due to the extensive storm drainage and soil correction involved with the Oriole Avenue alternative, it was felt that these costs would make this alternate not feasible. In conclusion from this study, it was our recommendation that the access, as in the previous report, be located at Forest Avenue and from this report, that the City staff and Council now has a full range of options for them. The access could be constructed as originally recommended from the report as the 20 foot wide gravel surface top or it would be feas ible to construct the Forest Avenue al terna te as the public improvement project with the cost being assessed to the benefitting properties. Any questions? Jim Mady: Bob, on the Oriole Lane side with t.he parking lot would be constructed as a part of the park, it appears as a hill there. Is that a wooded hill? .;t""'. Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 4 Bob Sellers: No. There is just brush. There is not much tree cover on the site. Only scattered trees. The main trees are right along here. ~ The site itself is quite open. Lori Sietsema: If I could interject just one thing. Our past recommendation to the City Council was to go with the Forest Avenue. If you want to continue with that recommendation, then basically the conversation needs to be whether that section should be extended as a street section which is bituminous with a rolled curb or if it should be put in as a gravel section. Again, the bituminous would be put in as a regular street section and therefore assessments would be made to the City and benefitting property owners. If it was done as a gravel section, it would be full cost to the City. Sue Boyt: If it was put in as gravel now, then homeowners couldn't subdivide and build unless they put bituminous in later and then they would not share the cost? Bob Sellers: That's correct. There would be no services. utilities would not be extended. Lori Sietsema: So if they felt that it was not at this time a need for them and they don't want access to those lots and five years down the way they decide that they do, they would then be responsible for the full assessment and the City would not share in that cost. If they put it in as a bituminous section now, the City will share in the construction cost of that road extension. -' Jim Mady: What we're talking about now is the access into the park itself? Lori Sietsema: That's correct. Bob Sellers: That cost is not reflected in here. Jim Mady: What we'll do is ask that you stand, state your name and address and your question. Betty Lang: My name is Betty Lang and as you can see we're one of the owners of property on Forest Avenue. I guess my first question is who wants the park? Art Kimber: Minnewashta Manor wants the park. Betty Lang: Well Minnewashta Manor, we're Minnewashta Woods. We were never contacted. We were never notified. We were never asked what we want or anything. They went down to the Manor which is 4 or 5 or 6 blocks away. Now why did they have to answer for us? Jim Mady: To my understanding, the park was donated to the City with the intent that it could be used only as an active playfield as best as we ~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~October 27, 1987 - Page 5 can use the land. As a result, the Commission feels that we should upgrade our parks whenever possible. We have the opportunity here. This is an area that is park deficient and we would like to go forward with it. Betty Lang: Why can't you combine with the Regional Park? Jim Mady: There are two different ownerships there. The Regional Park has, although people in Chanhassen can use Minnewashta Regional Park, the City of Chanhassen really has no jurisdiction in there and there's a gate to get into the regional park but the city park will be open to all residents. We won't be charging a fee to get in there. It just has to do with two different jurisdictions. Betty Lang: This park will be open when? Jim Mady: The city park will be open our normal park hours but we would not be charging a fee to get in to use it. Betty Lang: Could you answer my question about why the residents right there in that area were never notified of what was going on until we got this letter? ~Tirn Mady: How long ago did we get this property? 5 years ago? Betty Lang: We've been in the area 11 years. Jim Mady: Again, the property was donated to the City. The City did not go out and acquire the property. Betty Lang: Right, but I'd like to know why the residents that liv.e right there did not know or did not have a say in any of this planning or anything. Art Kimber: At the time this originally came up, Mr. Herman donated the property for a recreational park. Minnewashta Manor has a lot adjacent to the lake according to the information we had and the deed we had for the property. 30 feet wide by 170 feet long. It was provided when they developed the area for recreational areas adjacent to Lake Ann lake access for the people in Minnewashta Manor. I have this lot surveyed and found out that Minnewashta Avenue, a 60 foot wide roadway as well' as the 30 feet were all under water so we didn't have any recreational property. We didn't even have access to it except to go out over and look at the property from a boat so we talked to the City about it. Actually it resulted in the fact that the DNR would not let us fill it in to salvage it. At that time we had been pursuing Chanhassen for a recreational area adjacent to the Manor and a gentleman came down from the City and said that Mr. Herman had donated 11 acres that would be used for a recreational ~ark. We've been patient in the hopes that it would be developed south ,nd east of the Manor which is what it was originally intended to. I personally don't know what happened but the area that we assumed was Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 6 under consideration was opened for development for housing and the -,. property that we thought was in the si te was replaced by the property up on Forest Avenue. We would still like a recreational park because we've got a lot of kids and a lot of little guys that could use someplace to play. That will answer your question about maybe why you weren't initially notified because it was initially programmed with the Manor. Tom Schoenecker: I live at 28213 Sandpiper Trail and I've lived there approximately 113 years now and this property was donated to the City about 8 or 9 years ago. In the newspaper and various meetings and stuff like this, this park has been talked about for 113 years and I don't understand how anybody in the neighborhood didn't realize that the park was scheduled to be developed. We've been working on the development of that park for a long, long time and I would just encourage the Park and Rec Commission to go ahead with the recommendation to have that developed. I feel strongly for the people who have the park entrance in their neighborhood but just like I feel strongly for people who have a new housing development come up across the street from their house so there is traffic inside but it's progress. We find there are people who live across our street and now there's a new housing development. It's not any worse in traffic situation now then that was even in here. I just think that this park is a real good idea. It's something that's very much needed in the neighborhood and I would encourage you to recommend to the Council to have it put in. Betty Lang: I was just wondering has anybody considered what the traffic flow will be coming into the residential area there from both directions on Orchard? ....,., Jim Mady: I don't believe a traffic study has actually been done. The park itself is going to be a neighborhood park. The parking lot that's been designed for the park, I think is 16 cars. Betty Lang: So you don't believe there will be any problems? Jim Mady: We will not be having like league softball games there or any of those types of organized activities. It will just for the kids that are in the neighborhood that can walk or ride their bikes to it. The people who live 6 blocks away may be driving to it. That's what it's designed for. Obviously there will be some people who live in the Chan Estates area that may dr i ve up and want to see it because it should be a nice area once it's fully developed. Mike Lynch: We have a number of neighborhood style parks and traffic has never been a problem. Betty Lang: The reason I brought that up was because when we moved out there 11 years ago, at that deadend we had a lot of problems with teenagers driving around the grass. Beer parties. I've got a record down at the Carver County office of how many times I called to have 30meone come out and break up these little parties and that was just a .....", Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ctober 27, 1987 - Page 7 deadend. This is a secluded park. I found out today from the City of Chanhassen, we have one officer every 8 hours and I'd like to know who's going to patrol that with an officer who covers the whole city of Chanhassen. Lori Sietsema: Our Public Safety Department has also got part-time officers on duty that are around the clock. Betty Lang: Right, that's going to end in January of 1988. That is phased out as of January. I also checked into that. Dave Hansen: I'm at the other end of the Ci ty at 108 pioneer Trai 1. I'm just asking a couple questions as a Chanhassen taxpayer. When you talk about development, basically what is this park going to have as far as recreation? I'm a firm believer in a park system but I guess I'd have to say that in the order that a city or any entity has only so many dollars to spend and how can you best spend these park dollars for the use of most people in the community. Now it's nice for community parks but what kind of facilities are going to be in this park? You're talking about x amount of tax dollars. What is the total package cost of this park and who's going to benefit from this park? Have you run any type of motivational research? Are the children really going to use this park? I've heard mention it's not going to have any baseball diamonds or ~nything. Is this like a picnic grounds? So it really is a two part Juestion. What type of development is this park going to have and for the dollars involved in it, is this really going to be a real wise community expenditure? Lori Sietsema: When the park was donated, Mr. Herman also donated $30,000.00 for the development of the park. The access road alone is going to cost about $19,000.00. That leaves us with $10,000.00 for park development. We're not going to put in a bunch of baseball fields, soccer fields and hockey rinks. It's not because it hasn't been thought of. The original plan for this thing was to level the whole thing and fill it up with athletic facilities. We felt that that wasn't what this piece of property, the way this piece of property would be best used. The people that were on the Commission at the time felt that it was a beautiful piece of property. If we could develop it so it would enhance the natural state that it is in. Bring kids out there more of a play and discover park rather than a place for kids to play Little League and soccer. The other thing is that there are some real low areas and some high areas and to level that I think would be a real disservice to the City. We do have the money in the budget that was donated and has to be used for the development of this park and the park plan that's up there is not a real costly development. It's meant for kids to walk or ride their bike to the park. People that want to drive their kids down to the park, it's laid out so they walk along a trail and there's little things to do along the way. Whether it be stand up and look over the lake. ~t's definitely more of a nature park and I think that we need to have in ..ur community active play areas and we have those. We haven't got enough )f them obviously. We are in need of some hockey facilities. We're in Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 8 need of some more baseball diamonds and some soccer fields but I don't think this is the spot we want to put them. Dave Hansen: What's the total cost of this park? Lori Sietsema: That hasn't been figured yet just because we haven't got access. We haven't gotten down to actual development costs yet because we can't get to it yet so until we get that figured out. It's not going to be a lot. Mike Lynch: The access is the major cost and that's been the major stumbling block. Now for those of you that don't know, Mr. Schoenecker that was speaking before this commission and worked for years and looked at that park and how do we get to it and how do we develop it? The actual improvements in the park, the trails and the jungle gyms and ballfields, are very inexpensive as compared to getting to it. Now, a little broader question you asked is why are we doing this? Our thrust here's got three prongs. We have major community parks, Lake Ann and that's where the intentive active area, leagues of all types are to be held. That's because none of us really want to live next door to a place where there's 2~~ hundred people coming every night to play ball. That's not real neat but I also have a piece of park property very close to my home which I have been trying to get developed for 1~ years and it's just being done right now and I'm really happy to see it because our neighborhood hurts for it. We're the only flat spot in the neighborhood and my lower yard is where the kids can throw a ball around. They really need it. My boys need it. They're too old for it now but there's a whole new generation coming up so it's a place for those guys to go and little girls to go and do the things they should be able to do without being run over and have good facilities to do it. It's inexpensive. That's the neighborhood park. The third thing that we're wrestling with now is a comprehensive trail plan that will run all through the City. How do we come up with it? Do we just make these things up? Well, for years we talked to neighborhood organizations and folks like yourselves would come in. Some just came in. Some just came to meetings and said we're from Chaparral and we'd like a new jungle gym center or we'd like a this or that. Fine, that's what we want to see. We don't want you to put things there. We also put a lot of effort into a survey this year. Some of you may have been called. Every fifth family in Chanhassen was called for about a 15 minute survey that was professionally designed to give us an idea of what the people in town wanted. What facilities do you really want. What are you going to use. What are your kids going to use because it always makes me nervous spending the kind of money we spend here. I know it's my money too and it's your money and we want to put things in that everybody is going to get top use out of. That will be long lasting facilities and that are going to make your property and mine worth more. That's always a consideration because that's our tax money being spent. It should be spent to our benefit. Dave Hansen: That's exactly why I asked that question because sometimes IOU think you're going to use these facilities, they are idealistic and .....", ...", .....,; Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ctober 27, 1987 - Page 9 you really don't use them. I can go through many, many for examples and for instances when I speak about this. As a contractor for example, a home we're developing, a room around the bedroom where you can go out and sip coffee, etc., etc.. It's a nice thought but it's never used. What I'm talking about is absolute practicality of these areas versus the expenditure on them. I have to apologize for coming in in the middle of this and I've heard about a lot of these proposed ideas that are not eminent in the community and as many other taxpayers in Chanhassen, I'm guilty because I didn't put any input into this earlier but let me go on record right now, I'd like the community to think about a municipal outdoor pool. And the reason for this is, from what I've heard is happening in the community right now and the Park and Rec situation, if you start looking at facts and figures, a lot of the people are going to respond to only what's presented to them. You talk about a pathway system, indoor hockey arena or something else, what's the choice of these three or none of the above. Maybe what I'm saying is that some of the things that might benefit the community to the last person, for the best nickle spent, haven't even been thought of yet and I would like to throw that out to the community and see if there has been any type of investigation. Other communities, Bloomington, Edina, Richfield these beautiful outdoor municipal pools. I think that's one of the few facilities in the community they actually made money on and absorbed by far, by far the most use in that season of the year. So what I'm saying ~bout Park and Rec, I'm just curious of what the park is going to be. If ~here are going to be facilities in there that are really going to be used or just idealistically people just think they're going to be used. Mike Lynch: As far as the neighborhood parks go, we've got years of experience here in town with the smaller and already developed community parks we have in. We have worked with neighborhood associations. Check the wear and tear on equipment and what's there to see how much it's being used and that's been 15 years really. You probably, and by the way we're glad to have you whenever you want to come by, if you would like to see Lor i after the meet i ng I'm sure she would give you a copy of tha t survey that we sent out. It was really indepth. We put things on there that we thought nobody would even know what they were. It got so inclusive. We tried to look at everything. We talked to adjacent communities to see what they're doing. We keep an eye on places like Starry Lake Park, Round Lake Park, the trail system that Eden prairie has got in versus the one we're just thinking about putting in. Anytime you do something, you do something right and you do something wrong. We watch those guys and see what they do wrong. Dave Hansen: I'd like to add just one more thing and this is not to be contrary but if you take a public opinion, you will find that property adjacent to and the perimeter around, whatever~ to parks not only add definite value but positive value above and beyond other properties. People want to locate by excellent parks. You can check all the cities ~arks, the real estate around those parks is extremely valuable. Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - page 10 ...,., Mike Lynch: Now, long term when we gain access to the park, we'll be looking for continued input from the neighborhood. Lori Sietsema: Can I interject again? I just want to remind the Board and the people here that we're here to discuss the access to the park. The master park plan has already been approved by the City Council and if we want to rediscuss how we're going to relayout that park, which is fine, that should be scheduled on a future agenda. Right now we need to decide if we're going to keep with the Forest Avenue recommendation. If so, whether we want to recommend it being bituminous or gravel and I really think we need to hear from the people adjacent to it and what they want because they're the ones that will have to foot the bill if we go bituminous. Carol Watson: All I want to know is if these people want to develop lots? That answers the question. Bet ty Lang: lowland. No. We never even thought of it and besides it's all wet, Carol Watson: I didn't think you did but I just want you to say it. You don't want to develop the land. You aren't interested in the city sharing at this point and ending up with these assessments in order to have that street paved? ~ue Boyt: Are Reed, Ellsworth and Zimmerman here? This is by Oriole -' Lane. I think we need to ask you this question. Do you want the street improved? Lori Sietsema: So can we assume that you would rather go with the gravel access rather than bituminous? Betty Lang: Then would we have to pay twice as much, is that what you're saying? Lori Sietsema: No. What I'm saying is if we go with the bituminous the cost for putting in that street, the extension is $42,000.00. Right now the City will share the construction costs of that. If you don't want that now, if you feel you're never going to develop your extra lot or whatever, we'll just put in the gravel extension and put a driveway into the park. Either way it serves our purposes and then the City will be the only that will have to pay. But in 5 years if you decide you do want to develop your lot and you need water and sewer and we get a regular street in thre, then it will be built and all of the assessments will be on the homeowner's sholders and the city won't be responsible for any share of the construction cost. Pretty much the way I've outlined it to the Commission, what do you want? It's only Marsha and yourself. There's only two people so you're the ones that have to pay the bill. Bob Wagner: I have a question. Could you put the plat plan up again on he adjacent properties? When you install the park access road corning in ...",IJII Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~ctober 27, 1987 - Page 11 there, the property to the right of that up to that dotted line up there, that's also our lot. So that's going to cut our lots in half. How wide is that road going to be through there? What are you proposing? Jim Mady: The park access would be 20 feet wide. Bob Wagner: How do we resolve that? Jim Mady: When the location is resolved, then the plan will be developed for that access. Bob Wagner: And if we don't want to sell it to them, they'll condemn it? We own Lot 30 and part of 31 and Marsha owns the other part of 31 and 32. Bob Sellers: This could be moved. This could be moved to here. There's nothing magic about that. It was done with the impression that this was the dividing line of the property. Bob Wagner: Does this property abut up to the Regional Park? Lori Sietsema: Yes. Jim Mady: They are two different types of parks. ,... ike Lynch: There will be no access between parks. Lori Sietsema: There is a fence along the property line right now. It's in there. The Regional Park fence is around theirs because they have a fee structure, it costs to go into theirs and they don't want people sneaking in around the borders. They have theirs contained so that they can keep more control. Our parks are not fenced and it's not a practice. Betty Lang: Where is the original Herman access for this property? Art Kimber: Where the regional park is... Lori Sietsema: It was always assumed that we would gain access off of Oriole Lane. Carol Wa tson: Mr. Herman owned all the way over to wha tis now known as Sandpiper and that housing development also was part of his property so he went all the way over to what is now Sandpiper Trail. There were several ways actually of getting to that property. It wasn't always that it was this portion. Mady moved, Watson seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to approve constructing a gravel access road to Herman Field from Forest Lane and to direct staff to move the access so it's doesn't ~Plit any lots in half but place the access on the lot line. All voted 1 favor and motion carried. Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 12 Curt Robinson: Are you saying a typical gravel then and not bituminous? -' Jim Mady: Since all it's going to be is basically an access to the park, there's no reason to right now. Curt Robinson: So it's Lori Alternative #l? Lori Sietsema: This item will be going to City Council within the next two weeks to a month and I will send out a letter with the staff report on the agenda to that meeting. If you'll leave your name and address here I'll make sure I get that to you. I won't be doing a mass mailing again so if you're not on my list or you don't call me and tell me you want to be notified, you won't be. Thank you. SITE PLAN REVIEW, STRATFORD RIDGE, ROBERT PIERCE. Lori Sietsema: This subdivision is along Minnewashta Parkway and I thought of trails. Basically, it's 9 acres and they are proposing to subdivide it into 15 single family lots located on the west side of Lake Minnewashta about 1/4 mile south of TH 7. This is Minnewashta Parkway. I called up Mark immediately and asked him, when he was driving by and checking out Minnewashta Parkway, which side he thought the trail would likely go on once we got to that point and he said quite honestly it's 10in9 to have to cross. We're not going to be able to get it on one side Jr the other all the way down. It's just inevitable but in this section ~ you can see the contours. It's quite steep down to the lake. The other side didn't look nearly as steep but I think there still is contours in there. What I'm proposing to get a trail easement along Minnewashta Parkway. Because that trail should have a minimum impact on the homes there, because it will be their rear lot lines, I'm proposing that they still would be subject to the trail dedication fee. We are park deficient in this area. Lake St. Joe has been earmarked on the land use plan as eventually some day owning that for a park in that area. Again, our policy has been to have neighborhood parks of no less than 5 acres. If we were to take 5 acres from this site, he'd have less than half of his development left to develop and I don't think that's right either. I'm recommending that we accept park dedication fees in lieu of land and still keep our eyes on Lake St. Joe. I don't know that we're going to get an active park in this area but if we get a trail along Minnewashta Parkway and get a passive park at Lake St. Joe, I think we'll have served those people to a pretty good degree. I think they'll be pretty happy with that. With that I'll take any comments or questions. Carol Watson: I think you were quite right. It would be unreasonable to have him dedicate over half of his potentially developable land for park use. Besides that, when you look at this piece of land, it's really weird. Jim Mady: It is halfway between the two roads and that would be nice 'rom that respect. However, I think Lake St. Joe, if we went with the ....", Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 13 ,.... north side of Lake St. Joe, that would be the best place to put a park if we could get it which is something that will be discussed later on in the agenda. As far as I'm concerned, you're right. We need to take a little money. I don't believe that getting a 20 foot easement hurts the property owner in any way and there is no reason... Lori Sietsema: And again, if we can put the t'rail within the street right-of-way, that's optimal as always, that's what we would do and then we would be able to give that easement back. Larry Schroers: I like direction that things are going and I also like the idea of a passive park by Lake St. Joe rather than an active but I think that area is park deficient as far as active parks are concerned also. I'm wondering about that area directly to the north of King's Road where it says RSF. As far as I'm aware, that's a pretty large open area back in there. I think that we should maybe consider looking at that area. Keeping out eyes on that with the intent of possibly having a more active type of park in that area. Jim Mady: Maybe just combine the two. Put the two together. All we really need is one ballfield and something big enough for a soccerfield and then put a large passive area in the back by the road and a path down to the lake. ~ue Boyt: Is the area to the west developable? Larry Schroers: No. That's farmland. Kind of like abandoned farmland back there mostly. There's really nothing going on there at all. There is an abandoned railroad right-of-way further to the west back there that goes from Excelsior to Victoria. Robinson moved, Mady seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to accept park dedication fees in lieu of parkland and request a trail easement of 20 feet along the west side of Minnewashta Parkway and that trail dedication fees be required as well. All voted in favor and motion carried. REQUEST TO UPGRADE HOCKEY RINKS AT CITY CENTER PARK. Lori Sietsema: Dave Hansen was the gentleman that was sitting over there and he left with me what he wanted to say. Originally his request included turning the hockey rinks so we wouldn't have to go through one to get to the other. I realize that that is an inconvenience if you're Playing a game, to stop play every time somebody wants to get across. It's unfortunate that it was designed that way. I believe that most hockey rinks are faced the way that our rinks are simply because when the sun reflects off of the hockey boards, you end up having a wet spot on that side of the ice rink. If you turn them the other way, you're going to ~ve one whole length of your ice rink that's going to have water on it nd that's why you try to keep it to a smaller spot. Dave realizes that Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 14 as well and he conceded that that would not be the best option right now. What he's suggesting is that instead he'd like us to create another access or to reroute the traffic pattern so it won't go through one rin~. What he wants us to do is to build a platform that comes out of the hockey rink. It is difficult to get into that hockey rink the way it is. Then you have that boardwalk come down here and build steps here that go down to this area and keep this area flooded as well. Have the entrance to the hockey rinks right here so the traffic would go like this rather than in through this way because right now it comes in like this. Larry Schroers: Would the traffic have to go in the sides rather than on the end? Sue Boyt: Right now it comes in the sides. Lori Sietsema: There is enough room in there and originally I talked to Dale Gregory, the guy who is in charge of keeping the ice and we talked about bringing traffic like "this and having steps here. It's quite steep in there and one of his major concerns is that this is where all of the snow collects and he said after the first couple snowstorms, this is filled up. He goes around with the truck and rolls the snow, that's where it goes. Dave is saying just snowblow it out. Basically more maintenance. And I'm not saying that that's a bad thing. This is definitely an option. I do have a concern, I'm out of money in my budget ":0 anything that we request is going to be a budget amendment and I don't An ow what costs this is going to be. For the lumber for the boardwalks and the additional maintenance. The other thing that's covered in the memo is that they would like to see the ice maintained on a more regular basis. He feels they are beautiful rinks but nobody is using them because the ice isn't cleaned off often enough or flooded. I have to disagree because I see kids up there and people up there playing a lot. It is cleared and flooded every morning by 10:00 Monday through Friday. What I'm proposing, and I did talk to Dale about it and I talked to Gary to make sure that he had no problems wi th the guys coming out and working on the weekends, is scheduling someone who would come in after the Saturday night games or whatever use, after the rinks are closed on Saturday night and clearning them off. Scraping them off and flooding them again so they are ready to go on Sunday. Either doing that on Friday night or Saturday night so they would be once over the weekend. I think Saturday gets the heaviest use so they are in the biggest need of flooding after Saturdays games. I think I have enough money in the overtime budget to have that and what they would do is have a schedule and have everybody sign up when they want to work overtime and hopefully it fills up the schedule because it will be overtime for them. What I don't know in this whole thing is how much this idea is going to cost. How realistic it is and how impractical it is to keep this area here free of snow and flooded. Like I said, we use trucks to flood. They use the water truck and that water truck will not fit in between the railroad ties and the hockey boards so I don't know how they're going to get that flooded. He is suggesting that a get water up next to it so we can use hoses to flood instead. .....-r ..""", -' Park and Rec Commission Meeting ~tober 27, 1987 - Page 15 Jim Mady: A couple of things Lori, the idea of putting basically like a little platform, a dock down to the rink, that's a great idea. It helps a lot. I don't think I like the idea of stairs. I think we'd be better off getting Bobcat in there and putting a ramp up. It would probably cost just as much to have a city crew spend half the time to do that properly so we don't have a liability problem with stairs. Watering the ice, I would think there's got to be a way of hooking a hose onto the water truck so you can put a 5~ foot hose on and spray the thing. Larry Schroers: What some of the cities and stuff are doing now, especially in Plymouth, they have a real nice water truck that has a series of nozzles that go across and spray around the bottom and they just run around and shoot a fine spray and they come off with a real nice even ice surface. Whereas, if you take a hose and shoot it, the water collects in the low spots and doesn't go on the high spots and you're not getting a real nice surface that way. Lor i Sietsema: We should get a hold of Dale to have him come to the meeting and address some of these questions because he's the one that knows. Carol Watson: warming house. ~e floor... How much have we budgeted for instance for repair of the I notice in here you talked about boards for routing on !.lor i Sietsema: I don't think that it's in our budget. It's in Dale's maintenance budget. Carol Watson: Because I wonder if that would at least get that area out in front of the warming house there. Lori Sietsema: It could. I can talk to him and he probably has something he could rig up real easy. The trouble is right now, without the extra summer people... * A tape break occurred at this point in the meeting. Curt Robinson: ...this arena over here? Lori Sietsema: Every day. In fact they just bought a zamboni which they want the city to pay for. Curt Robinson: Are we going to talk about that? I hope we get a shot at that instead of like the arena just bypassing us again. Lori Sietsema: Actually, if I find the money in the budget then I would bring it to you for your consideration but if I can't find the money and they really want to pursue it then I'd bring it back to you for a ~'commendation as far as a budget amendment. The question that comes up .1ere is it's a $5,~~~.~~ machine that they bought and they didn't have Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - page 16 the money for all of it and they asked the City to contribute $3,000.00 towards it. My question is, number one, who owns it? Who has to repair it? Who has to store it? who runs it? ..."", Mike Lynch: Who insures it? Lori sietsema: All these questions and with us paying $3,000.00 to $2,000.00 for it. Curt Robinson: Is it really necessary that these rinks be flooded everyday? Jim Mady: Yes. Lori Sietsema: Yes. When they're used a lot and hockey rinks especially. Even the skating rinks, if you go a couple days without it, you get pretty big gouges in it and you get caught up on it. Jim Mady: Even in a cold winter though it's still necessary in the hockey rinks. We were talking about doing it on the weekends, your best time to do it is Saturday mornings before your games. If you have it shoveled the kids that are going to be skating on Sundays, Sundays are going to be pickup games but Saturday you're going to have your league games. ~ori Sietsema: So if they did it Friday night or early Saturday because -' it takes a while for that all to freeze down and it takes a while for them to do it so they would have to get in there pretty early because they open the rinks at 10:00 on Saturday. Whereas, they can flood here at 10:00 in the morning" on a weekday and they don't skate until 3:00 because schools not out until 3:00 so it's got quite a while for it all to set. I don't think that turning the rinks is really requesting anymore. He's not pursuing that. Curt Robinson: That's what is so funny to me. I wonder how much thought he put into that because that one, turning it, the rink'S 90 degrees, he ends that paragraph that with, this is absolutely essential. Now you say after talking to him... Lori sietsema: He indicated that it would be no big deal. He didn't think it would be a big cost but when you think about mov ing those lights. All that you've got left is the poles and the fixtures themselves, the ground work and the rewiring that's the hard part and the expensive part. Sue Boyt: While we're talking about the hockey rinks, can we plant rye in them in the spring so the kids can play fall soccer in the rinks? Jim Mady: Yes. Put $50.00 worth of grass seed in there. Each spring ~nd then in the fall we'll have a soccer base for the little kids. .....,,' Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 17 ""...... Lori Sietsema: Rye? Sue Boyt: Just something that will grow well and die so it won't be a problem coming up again after one year. I don't know exactly what it is to put in there but we'd like to play soccer under the lights in the fall. Jim Mady: As a matter of fact, you don't even have to plant it until like two weeks before school starts. That way you don't have a maintenance problem all summer. Mike Lynch: I'm not sure you'll get anything to grow in there. Sue Boyt: That's what we need to find out. We could even play on the dirt. Mike Lynch: Generally speaking if you've had hard ice cover on soil and the compaction you're going to have there, and that's all subsoil anyway. Lori Sietsema: Yes, but you've got the ice rink, the big round rink that's right on top of that ballfield. That's not great grass but it comes in. Jim Mady: That's all we need. "'ke Lynch: If you get something to grow in it I'd be surprise. That's ...d.l subsoil. Larry Schroers: I think I'd recommend on this, that we table it until we can talk to Dale Gregory to get some more specific input before we're willing to make a decision. Curt Robinson: Table it all or part of it? Larry Schroers: At least the portion of the access, the different access to the north side that we looked at. Mike Lynch: I don't think there's any problem about preparing...and I think they've already addressed the tv, that's out. If we get some vending machines in that's fine. Larry Schroers: I was going to make one comment about the vending machines. The only thing there is when you have that sort of thing you also have added maintenance in ground garbage and litter and keeping the place looking neat and keeping sharp and jagged cans out of places where people can get cut on so there is a little more work involved when you have something like that. Jim Mady: They're not really all that busy. ~ri Sietsema: No, they really aren't and it's not a lot to expect them do that kind of policing of litter and policing of kids to keep up Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 18 their litter and whatnot. I think we'll be interviewing kids a little more extensively to make sure they're responsible and with Todd on board, he'll be able to go out there and keep an eye on them a little bit better. ..-I Carol Watson: Make sure you're outside watching what's going on and they can certainly pick up cans or garbage. The other ones they just sat in there, they never came outside. Larry Schroers: Do you want your attendants to be outside on the ice? Lori Sietsema: I think they have to move back and forth. I think they need to be out on the ice but I think it's important for them to be inside tying little kids skates. Larry Schroers: I lived in an apartment in Bloomington for a while and one winter I really didn't have much to do so I decided to be a rink attendant for the city of Bloomington and they did not want me to leave the building. They wanted me in the building because they said that's where all the horse play is going on. That's where all the vandalism is going on. That's where the injuries are occurring. The kids are hitting each other with sticks inside the building. They said we don't want you out on the ice rink. Jri Sietsema: It's not that they'd be that far away. They wouldn't be ..,n the hockey rinks. They would be mostly on that family rink and they ...."." can see through the window if somebody is raising a stick at somebody else but I can see your point there but I don't really have a problem with them going out onto the ice and it breaks up their day a little bit more too. Larry Schroers: I wasn't suggesting that they should or should not. I was just trying to get... Lori Sietsema: We haven't had a problem with vandalism real bad or we haven't had a lot of those problems. If we lock something up for them to get into, we may have a problem. If we decided to put a little cage in there with the shovels and the candy and the phone and whatnot, then they would have something to get into. Right now, they have a great big pile of hockey junk that the hockey club has left there for the last five years in a corner and the kids never touched it. . they went through it five years ago and they knew it wasn't worth anything. Sue Boyt: There could be a problem at the Bloomberg arena with all the portable heateI:s that they have and they plug them all into one outlet plus the tv. I think someone needs to look into that. Lori Sietsema: I am having Ron look into if we'I:e up to code on a lot of those diffeI:ent things. ....." Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 19 ,.... tichroers moved, Watson seconded to table the item referring to ice rinks at City Center Park until next meeting. All voted in favor and motion carried. Curt Robinson: Do we need to act on all the others, like flooding on late Friday night or Saturday and walkways in front? Lori Sietsema: Why don't you just table the whole thing and I'll come back and tell you exactly wha t I know from the pop mach i ne guy and the candy vendor and the little snack box and I'll have the whole thing back for you. COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS: REFERENDUM CONSIDERATION, JIM MADY. Jim Mady: I just wanted to mention a couple things on here. Within the next couple of months the City Council is going to be requested to take a look at a referendum sometime probably at the end of February. possibly early March but if we were to get anything that we want outside of the things that are being proposed that have nothing to do with us outside of the trail plan. There are some other things that I feel we need to ask for and if we don't ask for them, they're not going to end up on the referendum. I just want to make sure that everything I'm looking for is 2-roposed to the Council and let them do what they want. I put on Lake ~1 expansion and I'm not sure if half a million dollars is enough but to -- ~ wha t we need to do is pu t the soccer field in the front, we need to get the access, get sufficient parking for the whole park and I believe that we need three more ballfields and until we can get another park developed for Little League play, it makes more sense to me to upgrade the current baseball fields into a Little League field. It's not going to cost a lot. It's basically a grass infield and improving the dugout situation and building one of the new ballfields, making that into a Little League park which again is basically a softball field but putting a fence in. Putting a grass infield in. That would be sufficient to handle both Little League and Babe Ruth in the community. Then we have two more softball fields, adequate parking and putting the trail in through there. I'm not sure about lighting additional fields. To my understanding that's more money than we have. I'm not sure what they cost. Lori Sietsema: It's about $65,000.00 to do one field. Jim Mady: If we do two more fields I don't believe we need to do anymore fields at this time. Sue Boyt: I think we talked about lighting the soccer fields didn't we? Lori Sietsema: I don't think we talked about it here but you might want to include that so if we do have fall soccer. /"'" Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 20 Jim Mady: After the 10th of October you can't play past quarter to 7:00. It's pretty hard to get anything done. You can't get in a practice so I think that's important to get that done. I also would like to see us as~ that the trail plan be put in. The first phase trail plan. I threw $800,000.00 at it because I couldn't find my notes. Looking back I see it's about $890,000.00 so maybe it should be $900,000.00. I bel ieve that's what we need to ask the Council to include that on a referendum. I also want to check on first phase trail plan, I think we told Mark but I don't remember if it's in there or not, the section along Frontier Trail is supposed to be off-street. I want to make sure that's in those numbers. --' Lori sietsema: Yes. Jim Mady: Okay, then on sighting and acquiring parkland, I would like to see us not wait for development to gain us the parkland we're looking for. In the southern area of the city that's not going to be developed for I'm not sure when. I'd like to see us get that parkland now when we can get it. Let's get what we need, what we want instead of hoping and praying that we get something else someday. I think in the southern area it would be nice to get us 10 to 15 acres for active play use being 3 to 4 baseball diamonds, get the soccer fields in there, totlot area. It would actually become a community park in the southern area. Then set aside 35 to 40 maybe 50 acres as a natural area. ...right along Bluff -eek so people can go from that nature area through the Bluff Creek draw ....11 the way down to the M i nneso ta Ri ver wh i ch is I'm not sure how many ......., acres down there but it's all public land. It could go from our area, along our nature trail along Bluff Creek down into the Minnesota Valley Nature Area would be a great source to the community. Lori Sietsema: Can I comment on your suggestion about acqulrlng the land? I know if we go out and we buy it up right now we'll be sure that we have it but that means we're spending money on something that we don't need for 5 to 10 years. I don't know if you have ever looked at the 1991 Land Use Plans that's in your Comp Plan. It identifies the different areas and it shows potential parkland. What I would suggest that we do, instead of going out and buying it because it costs us money to have something tied up in something that we're not using. Like on this one, it has Lake St. Joe all the way around it identified as potential parkland. The person who owns that land right now can not buy it without the city signing off on it and saying we don't want it. They can not sell it. They can not develop it. We have to sign off on that first. It was all the way around Lake Ann and when they sold that property to Prince they came in here and they asked us, do you want to buy it? It's going to cost x amount of dollars and we said no. We did do that within the last 3 1/2 years. This Commission made that recommendation and the City Council signed off on that. So those kinds of things, they have to come to us if it's earmarked on there. What I would say is we identify exactly maybe a couple different areas so that if it's developed in two "~ars and we still don't need it, we'll have something to fall back on. .t rather than going out and spending the money today when we have other ...."" Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 21 .,..... ....dngs that are pressing. The Fire Department needs to be expanded too and if we could spend that money on things that are more pressing, needed right today and use our future dollars for that future acquisition. Jim Mady: The problem with that is, to acquire the amount of land that we're asking for is going to require a referendum. We don't have $400,000.00 to go, once that piece of land comes up 6 months from now, 40 acres came up and the guy wanted to sell off his 200 acre parcel and we wanted the 40, we couldn't buy it. We don't have the money to do it. Sue Boyt: If we wait for 5 years property is going to increase in value. Lori Sietsema: I know when we purchased the expanded area at Lake Ann, we borrowed that money and we paid it off early. I don't know that we can't do that in the future. Larry Schroers: If we could identify a park deficient area right now, north of that Lake St. Joe area that could be an active play area for the existing residents that are already there who don't have a place, something like that that we could earmark and look at acquiring so we could get something going in the near future because we are, at the present time, deficient in that area and to me that would be practical. Lori Sietsema: I think we should look at the whole city and earmark ~ything that we might potentially want. Even if it's a pie in the sky earn. There are some pie in the sky dreams on this but those people still have to come back to us to see if we want it before they can do anything with it because that's part of the Comprehensive Plan. Jim Mady: My biggest problem is, in the southern area there's not a lot of large landowners down there anymore. There are smaller chunks. I'd like to see us get it now. Let's not wait. Let's not hope that we can do something 5 years from now because if we hope we can do something 5 years from now, we won't be able to do it. I keep looking back at what the City of Minneapolis did 100 years ago, they got yelled and screamed at and some of those guys had their lives threatened, people lost their jobs but they still got the best park system in the united States probably and we have that opportunity to do it on a smaller scale and I don't see us doing it on a smaller scale now. The voters may shoot us down and we won't get any of it but at least we have the opportunity of trying to do it now because we can al ways put it on the land use and say that's what we want. But if we don't try this now, we never will be able to try this because the way it looks now, the amount of things that are going to go to the voters in the referendum, if the Council pushes it all through, this could have more things in than we're going to have money for in the totalS years so if in 3 years down the road we want to look at something again, we're not going to be able to go to the voters because they've already used up. Two years down the road we're going to be stuck. ,.... Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 22 Mike Lynch: I agree with Jim. It only costs a nickle to ask. If you get the money on a referendum for a specific purpose and the people will vote for it, I don't see a reason against going ahead and buying the property and letting it sit in trust. ....", Jim Mady moved, Mike Lynch seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission forward Jim Mady's memo to the Council which included Lake Ann expansion, Phase 1 of the trail plan, sighting and acquiring of parkland. All voted in favor and motion carried. Mady moved, Robinson seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and motion carried. The meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Lori Sietsema Park and Recreation Coordinator prepared by Nann Opheim ....", ..."". If""" CITY 0 F CRARRASSER ') .,:<) 690 COULTER DRIVE. P.O. BOX 147 . CHANHASSEN, MINNESOTA 55317 (612) 937-1900 MEMORANDUM TO: Park and Recreation Commission FROM: Lori Sietsema, Park and Recreation Coordinator DATE: November 18, 1987 SUBJ: Request to Upgrade Outdoor Hockey Rinks ,..... At our last meeting, the Park and Recreation Commission reviewed a request by Dave Hansen to upgrade the hockey rinks at City Center Park. Mr. Hansen requested that a ramp be installed so that the hockey rinks could be entered from the center rather than the one side. Mr. Hansen's request also included upgrading the warming house and having vending machines installed. The Park and Recreation Commission tabled action on this item so that Park Maintenance Foreman, Dale Gregory, could be present to discuss the implications of these changes. Please see the illustrations. Staff has also contacted vendors regarding the installation of pop and candy machines in the warming house. The Pepsi vendor is a Chanhassen resident and will install pop and candy machines at no charge to the City. The City would be responsible for purchasing pop at 33c per can and keeping the machines filled. Any profits made would belong to the City. It is the recommendation of this office to deny the request to turn the rinks 900 as the cost to do so is prohibitive. It is also recommended that the request to build a boardwalk to enter the hockey rinks from the center be denied as ice maintenance techniques cannot accommodate the traffic patterns. Staff should be directed to schedule the use of the rinks so as to allow disruption of Rink #1 as little as possible. Additionally, it is recommended that vending machines be installed as requested. I"""" Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 13 north side of Lake St. Joe, that would be the best place to put a park if we could get it which is something that will be discussed later on in the agenda. As far as I'm concerned, you're right. We need to take a little money. I don't believe that getting a 29 foot easement hurts the property owner in any way and there is no reason... .....,I Lori Sietsema: And again, if we can put the trail within the street right-of-way, that's optimal as always, that's what we would do and then we would be able to give that easement back. Larry Schroers: I like direction that things are going and I also like the idea of a passive park by Lake St. Joe rather than an active but I think that area is park deficient as far as active parks are concerned also. I'm wondering about that area directly to the north of King's Road where it says RSF. As far as I'm aware, that's a pretty large open area back in there. I think that we should maybe consider looking at that area. Keeping out eyes on that with the intent of possibly having a more active type of park in that area. Jim Mady: Maybe just combine the two. Put the two together. All we really need is one ballfield and something big enough for a soccerfield and then put a large passive area in the back by the road and a path down to the lake. Sue Boyt: Is the area to the west developable? -' Larry Schroers: No. That's farmland. Kind of like abandoned farmland back there mostly. There's really nothing going on there at all. There is an abandoned railroad right-of-way further to the west back there that goes from Excelsior to victoria. Robinson moved, Mady seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend to accept park dedication fees in lieu of parkland and request a trail easement of 29 feet along the west side of Minnewashta Parkway and that trail dedication fees be required as well. All voted in favor and motion carried. ~REQUEST TO UPGRADE HOCKEY RINKS AT CITY CENTER PARK. Lori Sietsema: Dave Hansen was the gentleman that was sitting over there and he left with me what he wanted to say. Originally his request included turning the hockey rinks so we wouldn't have to go through one to get to the other. I realize that that is an inconvenience if you're playing a game, to stop play every time somebody wants to get across. It's unfortunate that it was designed that way. I believe that most hockey rinks are faced the way that our rinks are simply because when the sun reflects off of the hockey boards, you end up having a wet spot on that side of the ice rink. If you turn them the other way, you're going to have one whole length of your ice rink that's going to have water on it lnd that's why you try to keep it to a smaller spot. Dave realizes that ....." _...._..........::......... .:................,.. .U'!'....... ... -.. ......., T ~'-'1oA..';" Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 14 ~'s well and he conceded that that would not be the best option right now. What he's suggesting is that instead he'd like us to create another access or to reroute the traffic pattern so it won't go through one rink. What he wants us to do is to build a platform that comes out of the hockey rink. It is difficult to get into that hockey rink the way it is. Then you have that boardwalk come down here and build steps here that go down to this area and keep this area flooded as well. Have the entrance to the hockey rinks right here so the traffic would go like thi s ra ther than in through this way because right now it comes in like this. Larry Schroers: Would the traffic have to go in the sides rather than on the end? Sue Boyt: Right now it comes in the sides. Lori Sietsema: There is enough room in there and originally I talked to Dale Gregory, the guy who is in charge of keeping the ice and we talked about bringing traffic like ~this and having steps here. It's quite steep in there and one of his major concerns is that this is where all of the snow collects and he said after the first couple snowstorms, this is filled up. He goes around with the truck and rolls the snow, that's where it goes. Dave is saying just snowblow it out. Basically more maintenance. And I'm not saying that that's a bad thing. This is definitely an option. I do have a concern, I'm out of money in my budget so anything that we request is going to be a budget amendment and I don't ~now what costs this is going to be. For the lumber for the boardwalks nd the additional maintenance. The other thing that's covered in the memo is that they would like to see the ice maintained on a more regular basis. He feels they are beautiful rinks but nobody is using them because the ice isn't cleaned off often enough or flooded. I have to disagree because I see kids up there and people up there playing a lot. It is cleared and flooded every morning by 10:00 Monday through Friday. What I'm proposing, and I did talk to Dale about it and I talked to Gary to make sure that he had no problems wi th the guys coming out and working on the weekends, is scheduling someone who would come in after the Saturday night games or whatever use, after the rinks are closed on Saturday night and clearning them off. Scraping them off and flooding them again so they are ready to go on Sunday. Either doing that on Friday night or Saturday night so they would be once over the weekend. I think Saturday gets the heaviest use so they are in the biggest need of flooding after Saturdays games. I think I have enough money in the overtime budget to have that and what they would do is have a schedule and have everybody sign up when they want to work overtime and hopefully it fills up the schedule because it will be overtime for them. What I don't know in this whole thing is how much this idea is going to cost. How realistic it is and how impractical it is to keep this area here free of snow and flooded. Like I said, we use trucks to flood. They use the water truck and that water truck will not fit in between the railroad ties and the hockey boards so I don't know how they're going to get that flooded. He is suggesting that ~e get water up next to it so we can use hoses to flood instead. ~. ,.. III l......~._.:..~,,~ ~....,..,.."'" -: Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 15 '-"' Jim Mady: A couple of things Lori, the idea of putting basically like a little platform, a dock down to the rink, that's a great idea. It helps a lot. I don't think I like the idea of stairs. I think we'd be better off getting Bobcat in there and putting a ramp up. It would probably cost just as much to have a city crew spend half the time to do that properly so we don't have a liability problem with stairs. watering the ice, I would think there's got to be a way of hooking a hose onto the water truck so you can put a 50 foot hose on and spray the thing. Larry Schroers: What some of the cities and stuff are doing now, especially in Plymouth, they have a real nice water truck that has a series of nozzles that go across and spray around the bottom and they just run around and shoot a fine spray and they come off with a real nice even ice surface. Whereas, if you take a hose and shoot it, the water collects in the low spots and doesn't go on the high spots and you're not getting a real nice surface that way. Lori Sietsema: We ~ get a hold of Dale to have him come to the meeting and address some of these questions because he's the one that knows. Carol Watson: warming house. the floor... How much have we budgeted for instance for repair of the I notice in here you talked about boards for routing on ...ori Sietsema: I don't think that it's in our budget. It's in Dale's maintenance budget. '-"' Carol Watson: Because I wonder if that would at least get that area out in front of the warming house there. Lori Sietsema: It could. I can talk to him and he probably has something he could rig up real easy. The trouble is right now, without the extra summer people... * A tape break occurred at this point in the meeting. Curt Robinson: ...this arena over here? Lori Sietsema: Every day. In fact they just bought a zamboni which they want the city to pay for. Curt Robinson: Are we going to talk about that? I hope we get a shot at that instead of like the arena just bypassing us again. Lori Sietsema: Actually, if I find the money in the budget then I would bring it to you for your consideration but if I can't find the money and they really want to pursue it then I'd bring it back to you for a recommendation as far as a budget amendment. The question that comes up here is it's a $5,000.00 machine that they bought and they didn't have -' __.............-~~-.'J.lo.............. _'," J~ ..'."__ Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - page 16 ,.... le money for all of it and they asked the City to contribute $3,000.00 towards it. My question is, number one, who owns it? Who has to repair it? Who has to store it? Who runs it? Mike Lynch: Who insures it? Lori Sietsema: All these questions and with us paying $3,000.00 to $2,000.00 for it. Curt Robinson: Is it really necessary that these rinks be flooded everyday? Jim Mady: Yes. Lori Sietsema: Yes. When they're used a lot and hockey rinks especially. Even the skating rinks, if you go a couple days without it, you get pretty big gouges in it and you get caught up on it. Jim Mady: Even in a cold winter though it's still necessary in the hockey rinks. We were talking about doing it on the weekends, your best time to do it is Saturday mornings before your games. If you have it shoveled the kids that are going to be skating on Sundays, Sundays are going to be pickup games but Saturday you're going to have your league games. ~ri Sietsema: So if they did it Friday night or early Saturday because .: takes a while for that all to freeze down and it takes a while for them to do it so they would have to get in there pretty early because they open the rinks at 10:00 on Saturday. Whereas, they can flood here at 10:00 in the morning' on a weekday and they don't skate until 3:00 because schools not out until 3:00 so it's got quite a while for it all to set. I don't think that turning the rinks is really requesting anymore. He's not pursuing that. Curt Robinson: That's what is so funny to me. I wonder how much thought he put into that because that one, turning it, the rink's 90 degrees, he ends that paragraph that with, this is absolutely essential. Now you say after talking to him... Lori Sietsema: He indicated that it would be no big deal. He didn't think it would be a big cost but when you think about moving those lights. All that you've got left is the poles and the fixtures themselves, the ground work and the rewiring that's the hard part and the expensive part. Sue Boyt: While we're talking about the hockey rinks, can we plant rye in them in the spring so the kids can play fall soccer in the rinks? Jim Mady: Yes. Put $50.00 worth of grass seed in there. Each spring and then in the fall we'll have a soccer base for the little kids. '" ~-- .-~-~ _..~.,....-~,-. . -.,r-".I#-.4., Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 17 Lori Sietsema: Rye? ...", Sue Boyt: Just something that will grow well and die so it won't be a problem coming up again after one year. I don't know exactly what it is to put in there but we'd like to play soccer under the lights in the fall. Jim Mady: As a matter of fact, you don't even have to plant it until like two weeks before school starts. That way you don't have a maintenance problem all summer. Mike Lynch: I'm not sure you'll get anything to grow in there. Sue Boyt: That's what we need to find out. We could even play on the dirt. Mike Lynch: Generally speaking if you've had hard ice cover on soil and the compaction you're going to have there, and that's all subsoil anyway. Lori Sietsema: Yes, but you've got the ice rink, the big round rink that's right on top of that ballfield. That's not great grass but it comes in. Jim Mady: That's all we need. '1ike Lynch: If you get something to grow in it I'd be surprise. That's ~ll subsoil. ~ Larry Schroers: I think I'd recommend on this, that we table it until we can talk to Dale Gregory to get some more specific input before we're willing to make a decision. Curt Robinson: Table it all or part of it? Larry Schroers: At least the portion of the access, the different access to the north side that we looked at. Mike Lynch: I don't think there's any problem about preparing...and I think they've already addressed the tv, that's out. If we get some vending machines in that's fine. Larry Schroers: I was going to make one comment about the vending machines. The only thing there is when you have that sort of thing you also have added maintenance in ground garbage and litter and keeping the place looking neat and keeping sharp and jagged cans out of places where people can get cut on so there is a 1 i ttle more work involved when you have something like that. Jim Mady: They're not really all that busy. Lori Sietsema: No, they really aren't and it's not a lot to expect them ) do that kind of policing of litter and policing of kids to keep up ...", ~_""'''.4.'''''''' ~....-.... .... ~..... ;.b.........,<-~,-,. Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 18 ,...., _~eir litter and whatnot. I think we'll be interviewing kids a little more extensively to make sure they're responsible and with Todd on board, he'll be able to go out there and keep an eye on them a little bit better. Carol Watson: Make sure you're outside watching what's going on and they can certainly pick up cans or garbage. The other ones they just sat in there, they never came outside. Larry Schroers: Do you want your attendants to be outside on the ice? Lori Sietsema: I think they have to move back and forth. I think they need to be out on the ice but I think it's important for them to be inside tying little kids skates. Larry Schroers: I lived in an apartment in Bloomington for a while and one winter I really didn't have much to do so I decided to be a rink attendant for the city of Bloomington and they did not want me to leave the building. They wanted me in the building because they said that's where all the horse play is going on. That's where all the vandalism is going on. That's where the injuries are occurring. The kids are hitting each other with sticks inside the building. They said we don't want you out on the ice rink. ~ri Sietsema: It's not that they'd be that far away. They wouldn't be the hockey rinks. They would be mostly on tha t fam i ly r ink and they can see through the window if somebody is raising a stick at somebody else but I can see your point there but I don't really have a problem with them going out onto the ice and it breaks up their day a little bit more too. Larry Schroers: I wasn't suggesting that they should or should not. I was just trying to get... Lori Sietsema: We haven't had a problem with vandalism real bad or we haven't had a lot of those problems. If we lock something up for them to get into, we may have a problem. If we decided to put a little cage in there with the shovels and the candy and the phone and whatnot, then they would have something to get into. Right now, they have a great big pile of hockey junk that the hockey club has left there for the last five years in a corner and the kids never touched it. . they went through it five years ago and they knew it wasn't worth anything. Sue Boyt: There could be a problem at the Bloomberg arena with all the portable heaters that they have and they plug them all into one outlet plus the tv. I think someone needs to look into that. Lori Sietsema: I am having Ron look into if we're up to code on a lot of those different things. "'" .~~........ ..........-~-_. . '--""~~,,,,_"'i'ro"''''''''''....tr-''_'''''~ Park and Rec Commission Meeting October 27, 1987 - Page 19 Schroers moved, Watson seconded to table the item referring to ice rinks at City Center Park until next meeting. All voted in favor and motion carried. '""""'" Curt Robinson: Do we need to act on all the others, like flooding on late Friday night or Saturday and walkways in front? Lori Sietsema: Why don't you just table the whole thing and I'll come back and tell you exactly what I know from the pop machine guy and the candy vendor and the little snack box and I'll have the whole thing back for you. COMMISSION PRESENTATIONS: REFERENDUM CONSIDERATION, JIM MADY. Jim Mady: I just wanted to mention a couple things on here. Within the next couple of months the City Council is going to be requested to take a look at a referendum sometime probably at the end of February. Possibly early March but if we were to get anything that we want outside of the things that are being proposed that have nothing to do with us outside of the trail plan. There are some other things that' I feel we need to ask for and if we don't ask for them, they're not going to end up on the referendum. I just want to make sure that everything I'm looking for is proposed to the Council and let them do what they want. I put on Lake 'nn expansion and I'm not sure if half a million dollars is enough but to .e what we need to do is put the soccer field in the front, we need to ""'" get the access, get sufficient parking for the whole park and I believe that we need three more bal1fields and until we can get another park developed for Little League play, it makes more sense to me to upgrade the current baseball fields into a Little League field. It's not going to cost a lot. It's basically a grass infield and improving the dugout situation and building one of the new ba11fie1ds, making that into a Little League park which again is basically a softball field but putting a fence in. Putting a grass infield in. That would be sufficient to handle both Little League and Babe Ruth in the community. Then we have two more softball fields, adequate parking and putting the trail in through there. I'm not sure about lighting additional fields. To my understanding that's more money than we have. I'm not sure what they cost. Lori Sietsema: It's about $65,~~~.~~ to do one field. Jim Mady: If we do two more fields I don't bel i eve we need to do anymore fields at this time. Sue Boyt: I think we talked about lighting the soccer fields didn't we? Lori Sietsema: I don't think we talked about it here but you might want to include that so if we do have fall soccer. ....", ...........-.~ '_~ o.J~_~' ... ~~:-"'.~. "" -, -;... ~.~:a.