PRC 1987 12 08
CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION
~ REGULAR MEETING
DECEMBER 8, 1987
Chairman Lynch called the meeting to order.
MEMBERS PRESENT: Mike Lynch, Curt Robinson, Jim Mady, Ed Hasek, Sue Boyt,
and Larry Schroers
MEMBERS ABSENT: Carol Watson
STAFF PRESENT: Lori Sietsema, Park and Rec Coordinator; Todd Hoffman,
Park and Rec Assistant; and Dale Gregory
APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Hasek moved, Mady seconded to approve the Minutes of
the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated November 24, 1987 as
amended on page 1. All voted in favor and motion carried.
REVIEW REQUEST TO PURCHASE ZAMBONI, BRAD JOHNSON.
* Due to a problem in taping, a portion of Brad Johnson's presentation
regarding the zamboni was deleted. The following is a summary of what was
presented.
Having an ice rink proves that people will be drawn into the downtown area.
~ with better ice conditions the ice rink can get top dollar for it's use.
The Hockey Association just wants to be a tenant and will put $500.00 to
$1,000.00 into the ice rink but they can't afford to put any more than
that.
Brad Johnson: ...the $2,500.00 was intended to be a gift. The
Association, you could probable create some type of fund raiser outside of
the Association but the Association itself just sees that it should be a
tenant. We spent a lot of money on ice time and we raise the money to do
that and we prefer to have that distributed evenly over all the programs
and not just the program in Chanhassen. That's how we got to where we are.
Going down your list, the zamboni fellows have been out here a couple
times. We just have never had any cold weather to make the thing work. I
think he told you the same thing. He'd be more than happy to come out
here. All this guy does is just like you, he runs around all night fixing
things. If the zamboni's broke down, he's got a service and he does it all
himself. If one dies, the rinks are down so he's got to run around and
fix those things so he said, why don't you just get some ice and we'll come
over and make it work. That has made us comfortable so far. His wanting
to make the operation work. I'm sure he wants future business from
Chanhassen and he knows we're thinking about building a rink and stuff like
that so I don't think if we checked them out, they've got a track record of
ripping off ~eople .as far as zamboni people. He is a zamboni rep. He also
sells zambonl machInes here. As far as a guarantee, I think it's tough to
guarantee it. I don't know if you guys ever guarantee a used car but a 25
year old vehicle I think has been suspect and try to figure out ~hat's
I"""" w~ong. It'.S obviously got a brake problem or something in the right hand
slde...I thInk we can work through that so I think that's the concept.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 2
.....".
They are willing to come out and work with us to make it work. They've
been out, like I said I think 3 times but we just have never had the
opportunity to see what kind of problems we would have. We do want to get
a manual and they assure us they're trying to find a manual or a copy of a
manual will be made up. As I said, the financial commitment that the
Hockey Association has had, remembering that they put about $12,000.00 into
that so far in man hours, they feel that they're just kind of tapped out
plus, as I said, the income goes to the city, not anybody else. For the
best answer, that's what Rick and I decided is to just increase the overall
rents... As far as operational schedules and so forth, I think that only
makes sense. As a coach and a member of the Hockey Association, the last
thing we like to do is have league meetings. Once we get going in the
season, just like you guys, we have to know and those of you in soccer, if
you had to play soccer. It's disruptive so I think that just only makes
sense. One of the reasons we also have this relationship with the City is
that we said if we rent it or Blo'omberg or anybody else rented it, the
insurance costs, all those kinds just come out of the woodwork so it's
worked out very well. We've kept the expenses down, I'd say fairly low.
The think doesn't make money yet for the city. If we ever have a cold year
it would probably break even. Then as far as security interest, we could
probably draft something that basically said they have an interest in it up
to $2,500.00 if you ever owed money on it. I don't know if that's a good
idea or bad idea. I guess that's how we did it. There was a lot of
discussion about the problems in the rink and as Dale said, I just can't
believe the size, we don't have huge bumps and if they're in there more -'
often than we are, I think that the blade on the machine will keep the ice
in good shape. I think the bottom line is that you'll find better usage of
the rink once we figure out how to get it done. A couple of weeks of hard
knocks trying to figure out how to get it over there and get it flooded and
that type of thing but that's basically our answer to it. Creative
financing but there might be another way of doing it. You've got the use
of $2,500.00 from Bloomberg and try and find some other means.
Dale Gregory: Where's that thing going to be stored?
Brad Johnson: Where it is.
Dale Gregory: Right now? That means you're going to have to drive it back
and forth each time you use it?
Brad Johnson: Yes. The ones in Boston, what they were going to do, is
they had outdoor rinks and they actually were going to use it for surfacing
their outdoor rinks and they would drive it one block. There are a number
of rinks in northern Minnesota, they are outdoors in smaller to~ns like Red
Lake and places that have outdoor rinks and they use those machines for
surfacing.
Schroers: Do you feel that if the improvements are made on the buildin~
that you want with the insulation and the consistency and all t~at combi~eo
with having the zamboni that the revenue generated w~uld be satisfactory. ~
Do you have any figures as to how much revenue you thi nk you would generat .
Park and Rec Commission
December 8, 1987 - Page 3
,......
Brad Johnson: We've been over to Hopkins and Hopkins rented 600 hours a
year and we haven't hit that number at all. Part of it's programming and
getting good and organized. This year we've got a couple of industrial
leagues coming in. We're getting more calls. People are starting to find
out that we've got it here. Last year we had the whole Minnetonka
Association here. The weather plus the ice. I had days when they called
me at home, the Hockey Association and said get over here. We've got 1,000
guys trying to play and it's all wet. We did pretty good. We did pretty
good. Our kids improved over the year. In fact our kids got better than
their kids over there because they had more use of the ice and they didn't
have anything at all but I think we just have to have a good, reasonable
operation. It's a sales kind of problem. They're buying a service, it's
their money and they match us against something else.
Todd Hoffman: Approximatey one-third of the time is for opening skating so
that's not going to generate any'revenue and approximately one-third is for
the Hockey program and then about one-third is left over for adult
programs. People can call up and reserve an hour of ice time if they want
to have it.
Schroers: What are you charging, like $45.00 an hour now?
Todd Hoffman: Yes.
"""'Brad Johnson: Just raise it $5.00.
Lynch: What happened in the Hopkins barn last year? Were they able to get
any ice at all?
Brad Johnson: I would guess they had the same problem we did but I did not
check with them. We had a month and a half of ice but it was touch and go.
Dale Gregory: Do they have concrete floor over there or is that dirt?
Lynch: You can get into specific soil conditions where the soil is
particularly non-conductive and you might have that problem. I'd be
interested to see if Hopkins froze more than a month and a half.
Brad Johnson: The first year what happened, one end of the rink was heated
while we were building the boards and the other end wasn't so when we
flooded the rink, remember that? One end would freeze and the other end
wouldn't so that was that year. It was just a disaster. Then last year we
just couldn't keep up with it. He says he normally tries to get out about
15 inches of ice on it. Dale, you've never had the benefit of any kind of
cold weather on it to build anywhere near that.
Dale Gregory:
ice surface.
When we've had cold weather for short periods, it's a good
It's surprising the surface.
I"""Brad Johnson:
It doesn't crack or doesn't do anything.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 4
.....",
Dale Gregory: Real stable. Holds up well.
Boyt: Do you know what the projected life expectancy of the zamboni is?
Brad Johnson: I don't know.
Boyt: Is the zamboni company interested in taking that and trading it?
Brad Johnson: Normally that's what they do. As a matter of fact, that's
where he got this. He just got another one in on a trade that he got.
Boyt: That's the 30 year old. It doesn't matter to him.
Brad Johnson: They're sell i ng them. There's a market for a zamboni.
I'm not an expert on it but as long as they run and work.
Boyt: And will Dale be doing the maintenance on the zamboni?
Sietsema: Yes.
Boyt: Do you have time for that in the winter?
Dale Gregory: If it gets to anything major enginewise or anything like
that, then we'll have to go to the mechanic at the shop.
Boyt: Yes, but I mean changing the blade once a week.
......"
Dale Gregory: That general maintenance is no big deal.
Boyt: You have the time?
Dale Gregory: Yes.
Schroers: According to what we have here, we've agreed to purchase the
zamboni based on the conditions that are mentioned here. I guess is there
anyone willing to give a written guarantee according to the condition of
the machine right now? Will they want to do that?
Dale Gregory: I think you were saying, and I've got to tend to agree with
you, that to get a guarantee on something 25 years old.
Schroers: No, I'm not asking for someone to put like a warranty or a
guarantee on it, just someone that will state that it is in good operating
condition at the present time.
Brad Johnson: He was suppose to send me a letter on Sunday stating that.
As a prerequisite of all this, he's agreed to. corne out and work through the
system and see how it works. We've checked 1\ out a?d. to say what can you
do when you can't make any ice, that's what we re wa1t1ng for.
......"
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 5
,......
Lynch: There's a number of specific wear items I think that Larry is
probably referring to. Does the engine have good compression? Has the
gear case oil been sent in for one of these $25.00 analysis to see how much
metal it has in it? What are the conditions of the brake pads and tires
and the bearings? We're not talking about a left handed widgit that gets
loose and falls off on one side. We're talking major items that could be
gauged. A good mechanic can look at it and tell you. Yes it is or no it
isn't.
Rich Larsen: Mike, I called the fellow and talked to him and basically
what he told me, he says there's a new blade with it. They've put new pads
on it and basically they put new brakes in it. Now there is something
wrong with one of the brakes. As far as the motor and hydraulics or
anything else, they haven't gotten into any of that.
Lynch: Alright, I'd want to have eventually the engine and the hydraulics
looked at because everybody in the hydraulics business has portable test
kits so you can slam it on there and see what the condition of the
hydraulic system is in just a number of minutes. Compression checks are
not that tough. Several other things, I'm sure the city mechanic could do
to look that engine over.
Dale Gregory: The engine, that would be no problem. I could even do the
compression check on that.
"'"
Lynch: Just because it starts doesn't mean...
Dale Gregory: If he takes them in trade, does he rebuild them or refurbish
them? Is that something you want him to look at and check the hydraulics
and all that sort of stuff out so you can get a letter from him stating
that?
Lynch: I'd like to have that before anybody paid cent number one because
obviously the thing that bothers us Brad is let's say we recommend to the
Council that this goes ahead and that all these other conditions are met
and it goes ahead and it's used for 2 weeks or a month and it goes down.
They come out and look at it and they say, gee it's pretty major stuff
here. We're looking at $1,800.00 to fix this. $1,800.00 nowadays is a
drop in the bucket.
Hasek: Lori, what's the timing between this meeting and when it would get
to Council?
Sietsema: If you approve the purchase, it will be put in the
administrative package that we purchased it. It will not go to Council for
approval.
Brad Johnson: I think what the guy was telling me on the guarantee is that
he can check things and do things. We can check things to make sure they
~work. out before we pay for it. He just can't warranty the future of the
machIne.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 6
-"
Schroers: We understand that. We just want to make sure that...
Lynch: By a guarantee we didn't need a warranty. What we want those guys
to tell us, in writing basically, a molded statement that the machine is in
good condition. I want to know that they have new brakes in it. That the
engine and compression check and the timing has been looked at, that it has
a decent battery in it, the battery checks out fine and the hydraulic
system is okay, that the tires are 50% worn, 75% good or whatever it is.
I'd like to see an analysis on it. The same thing I would ask of someone
that I was purchasing a piece of equipment from.
Brad Johnson: Who do we have to do that?
Dale Gregory: I don't know who we would get off hand but I guess what I'm
wondering is, is that something you would want from him so you could go
back on and say.
Lynch: You bet.
Dale Gregory:
this.
I guess I'm looking at it, he's the one who should be doing
Lynch: He wants to sell us the machine and I want him telling me exactly
what that machine is like because I don't have the expertise to do and
nei ther do probably the rest of us to go down and look at the thing, numbe.""""""
one.
Rich Larsen: Engine wise, I don't think there's anyway around it. I think
we would have to have R & R come in. I don't even know that he would
actually have to personally do anything. The guy is familiar with the
machine. I think if we can get that, that letter that indicates.
Lynch: Again, not general. Go through the major systems and tell us that
they're alright.
Rich Larsen: There really are only three major systems on the machine.
The engine itself, hydraulics, the mechanical and the pickup system.
Lynch: We're not worried about the normal wear and tear. We're worried
about catatrosphic failure.
Mady: I'm wondering if that's probably something we can rely. on staff on.
We can tIuSt the staff to do, if we ask them to, they can see to it that
it's done prior to sending the check. Make sure that they prove to th~m
that the hydraulic system is good. That the engine has good compresslon.
I'm not sure what else we can do.
Lynch: The tires and brakes.
. on there are in good shape. It's generally .
Rich Larsen: The tlres we saw -'
h It's the things that you can't see.
what you can see is in decent s ape.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 7
,...
Schroers: I had a question on bearings. On a machine that's 25 years old,
how good are the bearings?
Lynch: Do they have service records on the machine?
Brad Johnson: I'm not sure they do. It was originally owned by the Ice
Capades and sort of sitting up north for 5 or 6 years.
Rich Larsen: It came out of Wisconsin.
Brad Johnson: Yes, it wasn't being used. It was just part of somebody.
Rich Larsen: It was being used by some fellow in Wisconsin had some small
rinks that were used for figure skating. Now whether he's got records or
not, I don't know.
Robinson: Can we go back to 2 weeks ago and work for word the motion that
Jim made? To recommend to make the commitment to purchase the zamboni upon
the following conditions being met and until that time the item is tabled.
The zamboni will be checked out by a zamboni rep who will indicate that
it's in good shape and worth $5,000.00. Maybe that has, I'm not sure. The
Hockey Association will donate $2,500.00 for solving the dripping of the
condensation. Has that one been met?
~Brad Johnson: We just spoke with the Hockey Association. They're no
interested in investing. We'll tell them how the Hockey Association
perceives it.
Rich Larsen:
It's a City-Bloomberg thing, not a Hockey Association thing.
Robinson: Right, but we said we would table it until these are met and
that one hasn't been met. Reject security interest of Bloomberg Companies?
Mady: I've thought a lot about this since two weeks have occurred and I
don't think it's right for us to tell the Hockey Association to spend money
in a facility that they don't own, they have no responsibility in. That's
a City facility.
Boyt: No it's not.
Mady: Well, it's not their facility.
Boyt:
it.
It's Bloomberg's facility. It's Mr. Bloomberg's facility and we use
Mady: We lease it.
Sietsema: It's a City operation.
I""'Mady: It's a City operation so I don't think
d th' we can tell them they have to
o some lng so we can do something. I don't th' k
ln that's right. I think
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 8
..."
it's the City's responsibility for the building. If the City and the Park
and Rec Commission feels we need a ice arena, it's the City's
responsibility to have an ice arena. It's great that we have a Hockey
Association that's willing to put money into it, do some work and all the
things that they're doing over there but I don't believe it's their
responsibility to keep the thing going. They did a good job binding it and
getting it started. I think it's really a city's responsibility to keep
that running.
Robinson: This was your motion 2 weeks ago Jim.
Mady: Yes, but I'm saying I'm going to reconsider it.
Lynch: I don't have a problem with that as long as it's working. As far
as I'm concerned it can drip as long as the dripping doesn't cause extra
work for Dale or make extra wear'and tear on whatever piece of equipment
they're using to service it. Whether you're running around with a truck
with blades on it or whatever it happens to be. You're doing it with the
tractors now.
Dale Gregory: We would scrap it with the tractor.
Lynch: It was unable to handle it in most cases?
Dale Gregory: Yes, but now it's a little di fferent si tuation. It's a -"
homemade scraper that we've got with weights on the back. I'm sure a
zamboni would do it a lot better.
Mady: The blade probably isn't as sharp.
Dale Gregory: It's the same blade. It's a paper cutting blade. We use
the same thing but like I say, the condensation problem, I guess the thing
that's going to curious with the zamboni is how fast it freezes. If it
freezes up fast, we can go in there like at, they open up at 3:00, we can
go in there at 2:00 and actually do the rink so it would be all shaved off
and ready for that thing. Then like I say, we can eliminate the
condensation problem that way but the way we were working it, we flooded it
in the morning and it would freeze up and by afternoon...That's what I'm
saying. With the zamboni it would probably go in there at 2:00 and shave
it off and it would freeze and it would be ready at 3:00. It depends on
how fast it freezes up there if you use the zamboni on that.
Lynch. What bothers me is one of these hidden catch deals. If we do g~~
the z~mboni and the condensation problem is still a problem, t:elzamto~~ s
not able to handle it or it occurs so fast after you go ~ut ~n, eve e
, e with the zamboni that by the time people can get on It, It s got lumps
IC , th to pay $25 00 an hour to skate
on it people say we're not gOIng on ere ." t' . to be
on lu~Py ice. Then I can see real quickly where the CIty, I S gOIng
a roblem. ...said today it's your guys progra~. If you need some ,
buIlding modifications in there, take,care of It. Bloomberg propertIes ~
doesn't need to insulate that end of It.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 9
tI""'"'
Sietsema: They might.
Brad Johnson: We had a chat about this and they said they would if they
needed to. The solution I perceive because I've spent a lot of time over
at the rink, he was over there when they were flooding and I said it
appeared to be that most of the problem with the condensation could be just
covered by shaving it periodically at the proper time.
Robinson: Strict operational policy and operational schedules will be made
by City Staff and implemented by staff.
Lynch: No problems there?
Brad Johnson: None.
Schroers: How do you feel about -training an operator and seeing to it that
only properly trained people operate it?
Brad Johnson: That's the way it has to be. Normally it's the rink
attendant who runs it.
Rich Larsen: How many different rink attendants do you typically have over
there?
~Sietsema: Last year we had two people.
Rich Larsen: What were their ages?
Sietsema: 21 and 19 were the two ages.
Schroers: So we -could insure that they would be responsible people.
Sietsema: He have not yet hired anyone for this year but we do have this
in mind so that we're looking for people who would be responsible, old
enough to take the responsibility.
Schroers: And who would supervise and check on them?
Sietsema: Todd.
Schroers: You don't feel that that would be any kind of a major problem?
You have a real good handle on who was operating it and when?
Hoffman: One of the persons that has an application in is a third year
college student, has worked in an ice arena before and has run zambonis and
that person is able to work all weekends and most of the weekdays. Then
there's a couple other people that are older, second and third year college
students that are available to work.
~Sietsema: Dale would also be supervising them and training them.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 10
--'
Schroers: It's apparent to me that there is certainly enough interest
and enough people tha t wou ld 1 i ke to use the fac i 1 i ty if we could prov ide
them with a good facility. I think that's what I'd like to do is try to
work together to provide as good a facility as we can. It doesn't seem as
though we're talking about that large of amount of money. We should be
able to work something out.
Mady: Do you have any remaining real difficult problems?
Robinson: Yes, number 4 said reject the security interest of Bloomberg
Companies which is related to number 2. Now, I think so out of the four,
I think the first one probably has. The zamboni rep has been talked to but
the financing has not. It has not been addressed and that was one of the
things we had to have.
Lynch: Here, we tried to offer ~n alternative. We said, we didn't want
to be in parternship with a private party on a piece of city owned, city
maintained, city insured equipment. We said well, maybe Bloomberg can lend
the money to the Hockey Association and the Hockey Association can donate
that. I'd also go this far wi th a secured interest if it was a truly
uncommon secured interest where Bloomberg pays half, we pay half, we both
own half. We cover the routine maintenance which would be specified under
a certain dollar value of $200.00 per item but any major expenses over a
certain level would have to be shared as well. If the long term shared
value of the machine at sale or trade in is going to be shared, major ....",
maintenance normally is too. The other side of the picture I see is even
though I know this is not a large profit center for Bloomberg Properties,
the legal aspect of it is that they are taking half of the rental monies
and if they do maintain a secured interest of a half of the machine, I'd
like to see them up the liability for catastrophic failure, maintain that
side too.
Hasek: Let me understand this. When we talked about this before we had
two options. What we were looking for was a $2,500.00 commitment by them
to do something. Either to correct the ceiling problem or to pay for half
of the zamboni. We talked about total outright purchase of this last time.
We talked about buying the whole thing.
Lynch: I don't see them ...the ceiling.
Hasek: What you're suggesting is that perhaps the zamboni can fix the
problem. If the problem can't be fixed, they are willing to make a
commitment to do that which is really what we've asked them to do except
here it says the Association make a financial commitment to either purchase
the zamboni or to correct the condensation problem on the rink. What they
are saying if the zamboni can't handle the condensation problems on the ice
surface, they're willing to make a commitment to the ceiling in order to
guarantee a nice surface. So really that's what you're talking about
right?
-'"
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 11
"'"
Brad Johnson: Yes, we talked about, just prior to this letter anyway,
doing something with the ceiling. If you guys can figure out how to get
the deal done, I think we're flexible. We just don't want to get hung up
in the Association.
Boyt: I think that makes a lot of sense. We don't ask our soccer teams or
our baseball teams or our basketball teams to help with the facilities at
all. I don't think it's fair to ask the Hockey Association to go in to
provide a facility that the whole community uses. Last year the ice was a
problem. The quality of the ice, when it was there, was too bumpy. It's
not as enjoyable and not as many people are going to use it. I think to
provide a quality surface we need the zamboni and I think the Park and Rec
Commission should ask the City to pay for the whole thing.
Hasek: I absolutely agree. I guess what I'm thinking is there still in my
mind is no reason why, if problem.s with the structure of the building, that
that still can't be handled by.
Boyt: I think the zamboni will still give us a much nicer surface than we
ever had even if there was no condensation problems.
Brad Johnson: We would like to get that ceiling insulated so it keeps it,
it doesn't heat up so fast. We lose a little time in late February and
March when the sun comes out. It would be nice just to more importantly
""'insulate.
Sietsema: It's nice to have the extra $2,500.00 in our budget that we
didn't have before. There are requests that come up throughout the year
such as the bleachers which we will be talking about later that we can do
because it's not budgeted where we couldn't otherwise. Our budget is so
tight if we want to do everything that's in our capital improvement program
this year that we do not have room to do anything else. There is nothing
built in there for anything else.
Boyt: What about the Lion's money?
Sietsema: This is the Lion's money. So if we use all of the Lion's money
for the zamboni, we won't be able to do the bleachers.
Brad Johnson:
Lion's money?
Why don't you just use our $2,500.00 until you get the next
Just hold it and if we have problems with it.
Sietsema: We can't really count on it because they might not make anything
in the next three months. We got the last donation last April and we got
the second one just last month so we can't count on the Lion's money and
they don't want us to count on it but it is something to consider with
Bloomberg giving us this interest free, security interest loan, whatever
you want to call it, it does allow us to still have a little bit of money
on the re~erve to take ca;e of some things that come up throughout the year
~that we dldn't count on llke the bleachers which happens to be on the
3genda tonight so I just wanted to bring that to your attention. There
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 12
--'
isn't any money to do anything extra without that. The first donation that
we got went in as our community support for our LAWCON grant applications
so that's in the matching fund. The second one we just got last month,
that's what we're deciding on what we're going to spend that on right now.
That was $5,900.00 so I just wanted to bring that to your attention because
there is that to consider. We don't have a lot of fund money to play with.
We are over budget on last year's capital improvement program.
Hasek: What you're saying is let's take advantage of Bloomberg's offer and
that would just extend our ability to finance the whole thing?
Sietsema: Yes.
Lynch: If we did have a major breakdown of the machine, say $1,000.00 or
more, is that money available? Where would it come from?
Sietsema: That would come out of the maintenance fund.
Lynch: City maintenance fund?
Sietsema: The machine will be owned by the City. We'll just be using
Bloomberg's money.
Brad Johnson: What I hear you saying is, if there was a security interest,
it sounds like what could happen is that you could ship back to the
Bloomberg Companies maybe a year from now the $2,500.00? If you want to
own the whole machine. Simultaneously if there is some diastrous thing,
say over a couple hundred dollars during the year, if it's a major thing,
we just share that and just reduce our interest in the security. Just
write the deal that way. That way you've got the money.
--'
Rich Larsen: From the Hockey Association's point of view, just thinking
through here what you're saying, if you're willing to put up the $2,500.00,
Bloomberg has already put up the other $2,500.00. If, and or when next
year funds are available that he can get his $2,500.00 back, the City owns
it, either this year or next year, at that time I think to help insure your
minds, the Hockey Association would be willing to accept risk up to
$1,000.00 for catastrophic failure because obviously we are receiving a
benefit of having the rink and I'll go with that because I think that would
pretty well cover Dale's got the everyday wear and tear stuff, I'll pick up
the $1,000.00 or if it's something more than that...
Mady: I guess I'm having some problems with this thing here. We don't ask
CAA to pay for the lawn tractor to cut the grass up here so they can play
baseball, softball, soccer and I don't know why we're asking someone other
than the City to put up money for a security interest or anything else, in
a city asset.
Sietsema: I'm talking about Bloomberg Companies and not the Hockey
Association because Bloomberg does have an interest. He gets more rent
money out of that building if we can sell more ice time and we can sell -'"
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 13
"",.....
,
more ice time if we have quality ice and we can have quality ice if we have
the zamboni. So it makes sense to me that we're using this money of
Bloomberg's but it doesn't make sense to me to make the Hockey Association
give it because you're right, we don't ask any other association to
maintain their fields. We do that and I think that we should continue to
do that.
Lynch: Correct me if I'm wrong Dale but I don't think we buy any other
equipment that is this specific in nature for any other particular program
that some piece of equipment is not general city use for other things.
Sietsema: Soccer goals, backstops, tennis courts.
Lynch: That's not equipment. I realize there is maintenance on it but
it's not subject to catastrophic failure and we're not buying 25 year old
tennis courts. We're buying a brand new one.
Robinson: In my opinion, we hashed this around 2 weeks ago for an hour or
hour and a half and now we've been at it tonight for almost an hour and
nothing has changed from 2 weeks ago except some views have changed but
nothing has changed.
Sietsema: You've gotten more information than you had last week and that
was the big holdup 2 weeks ago was lack of information. I didn't have the
~ight answers.
Robinson: The way the motion read, and I was opposed to the motion that we
had, I don't see what's changed other than when we ask for some specific
things to happen and those haven't happened, I guess I'm disappointed in
the Commission.
Mady: I'd like to have my motion reconsidered. I'm not sure how we do
that with Carol not being here since she was the second on it.
Sietsema: As I recall, what happened last night at the Council level, when
there should be a reconsideration it takes a two-thirds vote to have the
motion reconsidered and being your the one that made the motion, I think
that we can do it.
Boyt: Does reconsider mean just a revote or that we can revise?
Sietsema: Restructure the motion.
Boyt: Curt, apparently the way the security interest was voted last week
isn't the way it is so that information was incorrect. We still don't have
the information from number 1. I think they're still asking for some
information before any final decision is made.
Robinson: But the receipt on the check says security interest. Brad says
~that we can work all that out.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 14
--'
Lynch: If we get something in writing.
Brad Johnson: The security interest has to be signed by both parties and we
can work that out with staff and review it next time. My concern is that
we've got a rink that we're trying to play on, we're trying to sell some
ice time so we can get it used and either we don't have a zamboni or we do
have a zamboni. The guy who owns the zamboni could have sold it three
times that we've been waiting for some kind of decision. We're trying to
do what we can and we perceive, I've got a Bloomberg hat on, that we're
partners and if the problem is you don't have the cash at this particular
point to do the transaction, we could supply it. Just that we didn't want
to write it off. If we could figure out some soft way of solving that
problem, that's what we would do. It's your machine and what Mike said, if
we have a catastrophy, we'll take a reduction in it. Maybe there's
something we can figure out. I just can't in the next month or two find
the $2,500.00 of the Association.' We have a fundraiser specific to pay
back the City for that item I don't know.
Robinson: But you've had the machine since last January? 11 months?
Brad Johnson: Yes.
Robinson: And we got it brought before us 2 weeks ago that we had to make
a decision in 3 days. That was another one of my objections.
Brad Johnson: If we could finally figure out a vehicle with which to do
it. If funds became available.
~
Mady moved, Schroers seconded to reconsider the motion of November 24, 1987
regarding purchase of the zamboni. All voted in favor except Curt Robinson
who opposed and motion carried.
Mady moved, Schroers seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
recommends to purchase the zamboni machine based upon the following
conditions:
1. Staff work with the present owner of the machine and have the
zamboni certified that the major components, i.e. hydraulic
system, engine system, are checked over. Checking compression and
other various tests to insure that the zamboni is in good
operating condition.
3.
The zamboni be operated by trained, qualified staff of the City.
The City accept the security interest from Bloomberg Companies in
the amount of $2,500.00 and Bloomberg Companies will allow their
security interest to be reduced by a 50% share for any major
repairs that may become necessary during the time period which the
security interest is outstanding.
2.
....",
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 15
,.....
4. The City retains the right to buyout the security interest at any
point in time.
5. The Bloomberg Companies will agree to install insulation to solve
the condensation problem if the zamboni does not alleviate that
problem.
All voted in favor except Robinson who opposed and motion carried.
Schroers: Do we add about the insulation in the event that the zamboni
isn't able to totally solve the problem with the dripping, that either the
Bloomberg Companies or the Association take the responsibility for doing
the needed insulation repairs to stop the condensation and the dripping?
Lynch: If we did that and proceed on the purchase, we would have to have a
letter from either Bloomberg or the Association that said exactly that.
Rich Larsen: That's not a problem for the Association.
Schroers: Can we just have a good faith commitment from you?
Lynch: Like the man said, my word is my bond but I'd rather have it in
~writing. I think we have to have that.
Schroers: What I'm getting at is if we make the decision to make this
investment to hopefully provide a quality facility, that that's what we
want to end up with. It may take something more than just the zamboni to
have a real nice surface. We may need to have the condensation problem
corrected.
Mady: Okay, then the proviso would be that the Bloomberg Companies would
agree to work with the City and if the condensation problem is not
alleviated through the use of the zamboni, that they would be made to work
to repair the condensation problem with the building.
Sietsema: I just wanted to let you know that Lake Ann Park is closed right
now. Apparently there was some vandalism done. People did some little
circles, donuts in the grass and tore up the grass.
Dale Gregory: The police a week ago caught somebody out there just driving
all ove.r the place and down towards the lake where the new area is put in,
they just literally cut off and ripped the heck out of it.
Lynch: Four wheeling?
Dale Gregory: I don't know if it was a 4 wheet drive or what it was but
they just spun allover out there and they've got ruts allover the place.
~
Lynch: They caught the people?
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 16
....,.,
Dale Gregory: They caught the kids. They were actually out there. They
caught them while they were doing it. The thing of it is right now there's
not enough frost or anything in the ground so anybody driving around is
going to do damage so we felt it was better to lock it up until we either
get snow or frost.
Lynch: There are no possible uses of the park right now, legitimate uses.
Dale Gregory: No.
Schroers: Driving through there, they can still do that?
Dale Gregory: They can still do that but like I say, if anybody says
anything it's going to stay locked until the it gets cold or we get enough
snow that we can plow it and open it up for cross countrying.
Boyt: They are prosecuting?
Dale Gregory: I'm sure they are because they talked to me to see if they
had over $51313.1313 worth of damage and if it was they could put a felony
charge against it.
Robinson: Is it over $51313.1313?
Dale Gregory: It's just going to be a matter of us going out there and
redoing everything. You're going to see it for a while this summer but
like I say, down towards the lake area in that new area where we call the
little hidden park, that they really got back in there and really tore that
one up.
......."
Schroers: They were out on the ballfields were they?
Dale Gregory: They drove across them but they didn't do any real damage
out there. Most of the damage was closer to the roads where they got off
the road and just spun around allover.
REQUEST TO PURCHASE BLEACHERS FOR MEADOW GREEN AND CHANHASSEN ESTATES, GARY
MEISTER.
Sietsema: Gary Meister is here. He's in charge of the Chanhassen Girls
Softball for the CAA and he has made a request to purchase bleachers to be
placed at Meadow Green Park and Chanhassen Estates Park to encourage
parents to come out and wa tch and to have a place for them to si t when they
do come out. Now we do have that set of bleachers that you saw in the ice
arena and they weren't taken out last year because those fans that were put
in the door made it imposs ible to open those doors but they can be taken
out so we can get the bleachers out. ...you can ask Dale. I don't think
moving those bleachers are because they're not that heavy. If you're going
to move the big heavy bleachers that are up at the fields, the ones that
were donated by the Legion, those are a bear to move and he wouldn't be in -,.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 17
"....
favor of moving those around at all but the ones that are in the rink
aren't a big deal.
Lynch: Dale, the bleachers that are in the rink right now, do you see any
problem with moving those out in the summer and back in in the winter?
Dale Gregory: No. Not as long as we can get the door open. Like I said,
they put the fans right in the door and we can't open them up. Brad says
I'm going to take care of that. Well, they never did.
Lynch: Are those knock down panels or do you just go in there with a
tractor and pick them up?
Dale Gregory: The aluminum bleachers, what we do is we just take our big
trailer and we load them right on the trailer and take them down here so
no, that's not a problem.
Mady: How many tiers are there on those things?
Sietsema: 5, 15 feet long.
Boyt: That's plenty.
Sietsema: Gary may want to make a presentation.
,......
~ary Meister: I really don't have a presentation but to try and answer any
questions you might have.
Lynch: Lori had talked about the fact that she mentioned earlier about
wanting to buy these things so her memorandum here she said that we could
buy one new unit for approximately $1,200.00 and then use the bleachers
that were located in the indoor ice arena to give us two sets and budget a
third set for 1989. Have you seen that yet Gary, her letter?
Gary Meister: Yes.
Lynch: Okay, how do you feel about that?
Gary Meister: I'm totally in support of the recommendation. We haven't
had bleachers in the past on those three fields and anything would be an
improvement. Especially on Meadow Green Park, Field 1 and Chanhassen
Estates. I think those would be the two most important ones. Those are
the ones that are used the most. I endorse the proposal.
Lynch: Dale, you don't feel that the type of bleachers that we would put
out there would create any kind of a hazard or maintenance problem?
~ale Gregory: In fact the ones that you've got, they're the same as you've
got up here is what you're talking about?
~ietsema: Yes.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 18
-"
Dale Gregory: They're actually nicer because one person when we're cutting
grass, you can actually just stick the things up and we can do all the
grass cutting underneath and put them back down.
Lynch: You don't have trouble with the neighborhood kids taking them and
putting them down the block?
Dale Gregory: I don't think so. They do it with the hockey goals once in
a while. Like the ones up here, we've never had any trouble up here as
far as moving them around.
Boyt: CAA used Chan Estates Park this last year for rag ball and T-ball
and there is a need.
Robinson: Lori, although I realize we can't count on the pulltab money all
the time but this sounds like an ideal place for something like that. They
wanted something specific. I'd almost recommend that the third set that
you said may be included in the 1989 budget, let's say the next time we
get, which would be next April, at least it's been every 6 months the last
two, and if it's $1,200.00, buy it out of pull tab money because it does
sound like an ideal thing for them.
Sietsema: And we could even maybe invest in a plaque that says something
about it.
Robinson moved, Boyt seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission
buy one set of bleachers and the use the bleachers from the indoor ice
arena and earmark the next pulltab money from the Chaska Lion's for the
third set of bleachers. Also, that the bleachers have plaques recognizing
the fact that they were given by the Chaska Lion's. All voted in favor and
motion carried.
.....,
REVIEW VENDING POSSIBILITIES FOR WARMING HOUSE AT CITY CENTER PARK.
Lynch: Haven't we said it's alright to put a machine out there?
Sietsema: Yes, I thought that you might want to make the decision as to
what kind of machines go in there. I've heard parents talk about pop
machines or fruit machines or snack machines.
Schroers: I have a question. It's kind of unclear. It says a full
service pop or juice. Now, are we talking about two different machines or
one machine.
Hoffman: Two different machines. Very Fine Juice machine or a Coke or
Pepsi or RC machine. If you want to go with one or the other or if you
want to put both in there. We can do that also.
Hasek: How about if we let the staff decide what goes in there if we just
make the decision as to what's to go in there. -'
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 19
,.....
Sietsema: Being that we're not conscientious parents, I thought perhaps you
wanted to make that decision.
Hoffman: Juice is 60 cents, pop is 50 cents so there is a consideration.
Robinson: Wasn't the question also whether you wanted full service or be
bothered by it?
Hoffman: I would think it would be full service.
Lynch: I'd rather not have an attendant be responsible to keep up with
supplies and selling it over the counter.
Jay Johnson: For the CAA, as one of their board members and one of the
coaches, your sugar soft drinks are counter to the kids. You should not be
giving the kids sugar during sports events. It is bad for the metabolism.
It's bad for their performance. I think we would support the juice
machines over the pop machines. Consideration of, there's a lot of talk
about trying to raise more money. The CAA is broke. The Hockey folks are
broke. Everybody's broke right now. There has been some minor talk at
this time about the CAA getting into the concession business and some of us
have been discussing operating a concession stand during our events and
having juice and whatever for the players and parents.
,.....
lietsema: Perhaps we want to go with a self service. Let the CAA do it
and they can have the money out of it then.
Lynch: Let's do this for now. We want something in there for the skating
season. We can always take the machines out. I don't think this is going
to take Council approval. If you guys want to set up a concession stand,
fine. We'll lock up the machines, turn them around backwards or something
or if the guy doesn't like that he can take them out until the end of
summer and he could put them back in or something. We'll work something
out.
Boyt: Or providing things that aren't provided by the machines. Provide
popcorn and that kind of thing. Knowing CAA it's going to take a heck of a
time getting parents to volunteer to help out.
Sietsema: That's why I thought if they did the service on it and they keep
the money on it.
Jay Johnson: That's the whole realization thing in the CAA right now is
how to get more volunteers to do this thing. How do we get a vending crew
that will go out.
Lynch: Both Minnetonka operations, both Bennett Park and Minnetonka Mills
have parental scheduling at the parks.
~ay Johnson: In the sign up we do have a lot of people volunteer for things.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 20
Lynch:
They maintain their own facilities there...
. ...."""
Jay Johnson: Mostly I wanted to say that the fruit juice appeals better to
me as a coach of young athletes than Coke or Pepsi.
Boyt: I think looking at the machines, the players they don't have a
chance to go over and get things until after the game. We're selling to
the parents and the little kids that are there.
Hasek: And I think the parents and the coaches can kind of control.
Mady: That should be a parental decision.
Hasek: Todd, have you got any feeling about what kind of revenues just a
couple machines? Did you talk to them about that? In a similar location,
what kind of revenue you might be.able to generate?
Hoffman: It's got it figured on there, if we have a full service, you'll
receive back $2.55 a case. As far as the use age pattern out there, I
haven't been around the past year so I don't know how much traffic goes in
and out of that warming house.
Hasek: Or a hot chocolate machine I'll bet you would make a fortune.
Boyt: Coffee and hot chocolate machines.
....".."
Hasek: I'd like to make a motion. I guess we've already decided that it's
alright and I'd like to make a motion.
Hasek moved, Mady seconded to leave it up to City Staff to decide what kind
of vending machines are used at the warming house. All voted in favor and
motion carried.
UPDATE: CITY COUNCIL ACTION ON TRAIL RECONSIDERATION, T BAR K ESTATES.
Lynch: Jay came to our meeting tonight to discuss it. Jim was at the
Council meeting when it was discussed and there was evidentally a proposal
made so Jay, first of all, brought us a letter. If you would enter this
into the Minutes packet. You don't have to record this but just go through
it. A corridor was suggested of the west side of the property much the
same as we had discussed at one point during our meetings. We talked about
that corridor too. I told Jay, we were discussing this before the meeting,
that Park and Rec's position on it was that we did need the trail on Lyman
Blvd. for that trail... We would still like the trail through the low
ground at the bottom of the bluffs because we think we can get the property
west of it and east of it and that is a nice nature trail area. Also, our
contention was that would not adversely affect the value of the property.
Like anything else, if you have the right buyer. Jay, why don't you
explain to us a little about how the Council felt about it or what tact
,hey were taking. -'
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 21
,...,.
Jay Johnson: There were two items. We were just simply saying we will
reconsider this in the future. We did not at that time reconsider it. We
didn't make any motion to vacate that trail at this time. The applicant
came in and as I remember, the trail did get added, as they were contending
right at the last minute, at the 11th hour. The applicant was out of town
at the time. The representative, they didn't have a lot of consideration
to the trail. I didn't go over all the Minutes on this but I'm just giving
the reasons that I voted to reconsider it. The other reason is that
nobody, in discussing this western route, I tried to get to find out if you
all had seen the western route and if you all had considered the western
route and that information wasn't brought forward that you had already
considered this route so I was not able to know. I was trying to get it
back to you reconsider it and provide us information. Unfortunately, I
should have asked whether that was going to be feasible before I voted for
the reconsideration. I voted for the reconsideration and then I said,
let's send this back to Park and Rec and let them look at the western
corridor. To me, the benefit we now will have a corridor for Lyman Blvd.
getting into the interior which is an important part of the corridor.
Which of the two is more important, the east-west or the north-south, to me
looking at the overall trail plan, the north-south seemed more important
that that be established first. That was really where I was coming from.
The Council did not want to bring it back to Park and Rec. Bill and I did.
In my letter I said still want Park and Rec's opinion. If I have to get it
one on one and individually, please do. That will help.
I""'"
~ietsema: We don't have this easement.
Lynch: We didn't ask for that easement on this piece of property. We
decided we would ask for that easement on this piece of property. We
didn't want to go up that and as you see here, there's a swale there. I
was out there maybe a year ago and we didn't want to try to go up the hill.
Besides that, we felt that was enough without ripping another chunk off.
Jay Johnson: When you're negotiating with this guy, we can take just a
minor part down the side of the hill.
Lynch: All we'd need over here would be a standard right-of-way lot right
there and this continues to go. It's so much easier once you're attaching
to something. The builder comes in and says, hey I don't want to give you
that. We say, wait a minute, we already have this.
Jay Johnson: To tell you the truth, Dale is the probably the pivotal vote
on this. If everybody would send in their little opinion on it and you
remained unanimous, even though the Council didn't ask you to vote on this
but we get your opinion back anyway, I think we can keep the trail. I want
to make sure that this had been considered and the applicant does get due
consideration. I think this one was proposed at first and then later this
one got proposed somewhere between preliminary plat and the final plan and
the applicant was out of town at final plat. When this came through, 10
~nd behold it was a surprise to them. That's not too fair.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 22
....",/
Lynch: A lot of these dotted lines in here Jay are fairly recent input
from Mark Koegler and Tim Erhart.
Jay Johnson: One thing the Council was saying last night is simply, if you
had this part as it is. Corne to this point and then you walk the roads
down.
Sietsema: No, this is an off-street trail.
Jay Johnson: And this is an off-street trail so the difference between
corning in and going up the side property line and an off-street trail
around here, we're corning through here, we can get this quicker.
Lynch: You're missing the philosophy here I think. Maybe we haven't been
clear enough about it. The dark trails here, you're actually looking at a
system where if somebody wants to get on a bike and go someplace, that's
where they go. These dot ted lines are somepl ace where you can just go
wander around. These are not really designed to get you anywhere.
Jay Johnson: There was talk of making this that people would walk this
loop. What Dale and Clark were saying was if you carne up this side line,
you still have a loop.
Lynch: A friend of mine said there are some people that walk for pleasure
)r they just go.
....""
Sietsema: I think another point that needs to be just said is that, look
at this trail plan. We have 4 lines here that are nature trails and the
rest is all off-street trails. We have very limited nature places where we
can go out in the woods and walk and no, this isn't a great distance but
still there are some natural amenities there that I think the reason why it
was put in there is so everybody would share in enjoying that. It's not
the same kind of trail. There are two different kinds of trails. They
have two different types of purposes and to start giving up these little
pieces, we're going to lose it.
Lynch: So a trail on the north side of the T Bar K, there is really only
one reason to have that in. It's necessary to maintain planned, off-street
trail system which would carry a majority of pedestrian traffic. That's
what we've established the off-street trail system for. To carry the heavy
burden of that traffic.
Hasek: As per that plan.
Lynch: As per the trail plan. Now, the trail on the south side.
Hasek: Should we do everything around it first? Let's do everything
around it and corne to that one last. Can we do that? Isn't there one
that's over on the west side?
.ynch: The Kline property is right here.
....""
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 23
"
Hasek: Isn't there a north-south trail just to the east of this?
Lynch: No. The road, which has another off-street trail, is over on
another complete piece of property over here.
Hasek: Still, it's a part of this trail system even though it's not
directly attached to it as a part of the motion, we talked about it.
Lynch: Let's make an item that says we need to go east on this to connect.
In other words, Tom Hamilton doesn't like trails that start somewhere and
go nowhere and I think we should show that this starts somewhere and
connects up with this.
Hasek:
system.
I guess what I'm saying is, we've already defined an on-road trail
Let's talk about the other on-road trail system.
Lynch:
But there's nothing else contiguous to the property.
Hasek: But that doesn't matter because it's a part of the bigger plan.
That's what I'm saying. Actually this north-south, that's where we're
coming from. If this went over to TH 101, if it goes to TH 101 and
connects over to Powers Blvd., so it starts on Lyman.
Lynch: The trail on the south side runs southwest and east from the T Bar
~ property connecting perspectively with Powers Blvd. and TH 101. As long
AS we're talking about connections, the north-south connection shown on the
Master Trail Plan just adjacent to the west side of the T Bar K property
was located based on topographical grades. Grades on T Bar K made north-
south travel impractical. Number 3, the trail location was recommended by
consultant and staff as a worthwhile nature trail augmenting that southwest
of it. 4 would be, it was Park and Rec's feeling that this wetland area
was not able to be developed. A 32 foot nearly vertical grade separates
the trail site from home sites and a heavily wooded area on that slope acts
as a adequate screen. You want to add a note about this business that the
trail in the property makes it less valuable?
Hasek: I think that's a real judgmental call and we ought to stay away
from it.
Boyt: You could point out that it has shown in Minneapolis that property
on the park system is worth more money.
Schroers: I would agree with that. I personally know of a situation where
a trail has increased the value of someone's property.
Hasek: The situation here might be a little bit different and the only
reason is because this trail goes across and separates this to the piece of
ground that's adjacent to it.
~ietsema: It only separates them from a wetland.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 24
Schroers: Also the fact that it's probably going to be such a low use
trail in terms of volumes of people that are going to use it, I just can't
really see that it's going to be a detriment there.
Lynch: I'd like to put in a fifth one saying, even though the trail would
separate the main lot from a small portion on the south edge, that south
portion is wetland and unuseable in any forseeable form.
...."
Mady: A suggestion I would make here, if the big problem is that it's not
on the property line, maybe the property owners would be better off deeding
that wetland to the City so they are not paying taxes on a wetland. Give
us the property right to the 886 contour line so they don't have to pay
taxes on a wetland. Just make it a full easement to the 886 line and take
our trail easement next to the conservation easement. That's a
possibility.
Sietsema: I don't know tha t the Ci ty Counc i 1 would want to take all the
wetlands out of the tax base because we've got probably more wetlands than
anybody.
Mady: One other item we need to consider, I believe it was Councilman
Geving made about the difficulty about obtaining future easements along
both sides of this property. The comment was made at the Council meeting
that they thought it was going to be nearly impossible to obtain an
aasement along the Kline property anyways so why should we look at this.
If that's going to be the tact that the Council wishes to take on this, ....".
then we are serving no purpose at all in putting a trail in any way, shape
or form in front of the Ci ty because we have a number of areas where
easements are going to be nearly impossible to obtain in the near future
but in the long run, we probably will obtain them. Remind them of the fact
tha t the Lake Ann, the complete Lake Ann tra i 1, al though we know it will
not happen in the short run, is a long run goal just as this will be. We
can not base a trail plan on short term, will we get it in the next 2
years. We just can't base on that because that's just not reasonable.
Sietsema: How do you want to handle this? Do you want me to send the
Minutes to you on this item as soon as I get the Minute back so each of you
can respond to the Council individually or do you want to make...
Lynch: I would say taking those items and writing them up in that form and
just sending them to the Council as an open letter.
Mady: Basically send them a memo saying, although we understand this item
is not being sent back to us for review.
Sietsema: You want me to write this letter?
Mady: You write it under from us. Not from the staff but from the
Commission. The Commissioners in attendance felt strong enough about this
~ature trail, they felt the Council should be advised of the position and
cry to clarify points of concern the Council had.
....""
..
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
~ecember 8, 1987 - Page 25
Sietsema: Do you want to mention anything in here that you feel committed
to upholding the integrity of the trail plan that you've worked so hard on?
Lynch: Yes. Basically that we can't allow it to be cut to pieces with
short term considerations. That we have to look at the long term.
Sietsema: I'll write up a memo. It will be from me to Don and it will be
regarding the Commission's concern regarding the reconsideration of the
trails along T Bar K. Is that what you want?
Hasek: I think if there is any 11th hour problem with coersion here, that's
Planning Commission and Council's problem, not ours. That was a problem
where this trail down here appeared on the final plat and wasn't on the
preliminary plat.
Robinson: Lori, when this was on 'the Council agenda last night, did they
have our Minutes, a copy of our Minutes? Does that say that we probably
didn't do a very good job when Klinge1hutz came to us when we rejected it?
Sietsema: No. What we have to keep foremost in our mind when things like
this, when they do things that we don't recommend, is that we are just
recommending and they have the power to override us. It doesn't mean we've
done a bad job, it just means that they disagree or they have taken other
~ings into consideration that maybe we didn't.
~asek: Or we don't even know about.
Sietsema: Perhaps a planning issue that we don't know about or something
else. It's not anything directed to the Commission personally and we
should not feel bad or insulted that they didn't take our recommendation.
It just means that they didn't agree with our recommendation and they have
the ultimate power to do that.
Robinson: But I was thinking maybe we should have said, we have to reject
your request and here are the reasons.
Lynch: What I talked about this a little last year and I asked the Council
about it when we had that little meeting, were we being explicit enough and
at that time I was told yes. Your motions are fine. Then the Council came
along and said in order for us to know better what's going on we would like
verbatim minutes so we can read those but those are awfully hard to pick
the jist out of. I think that we have messed up. When we have a sensitive
matter or maybe know that it may be sensitive to the Council, I think we
better structure a motion. This is what we recommend to do and this is
why and put down absolutely every consideration we have why we do it
because I'm sure, well Jay said, when he and I talked about some of these
things earlier, they didn't know about this. They didn't look at the
topography of the west side thing. They didn't know about this. They
didn't know about that. They did not have the copy of the Master Trail
~an to look at. They didn't have any of that stuff.
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 26
Mady: Last night I got the real distinct impression that a majority of the"
Council may have read what we had done on T Bar K but they were not basing
their consideration of it on anything we had done. They were looking at it
based on what the applicant was corning in front of them and I didn't feel
they were taking any of...
.....,.",
Sietsema: If you want to make your motions lengthier, I will include all
that length within the update and it will just re-emphasize what's in the
Minutes. That can't hurt but help.
Hasek: My general observation of body's that run cities, because they are
comprised of basically non-professionals and that's the way it should be in
city government, is that oftentimes you find people making recommendations
and motions based on things that absolutely have nothing to do with facts.
Something like I would never agree to that because I don't like it or my
mother voted against it and I'm against it too. You'd hear those types of
things.
Boyt: Or I've lived here 20 years and we've always done it this way.
Hasek: I think we have tools before us and we've tried to work with those
tools. We have a Comprehensive Plan. We know what the zoning is. We have
a good feel for what it is the people out there want. As long as we
continue to rely on those things and use those things, I think we're going
.0 continue to give the Planning Commission and Council good direction. If
they want to look at them the way that we are presenting them, fine. If
they don't, we're still doing the best job. I think as far as Park and
Recreations go, this is one of the best that I've ever seen. I think we're
doing an excellent job here and I certainly am not going to apologize to
anyone for what we've done. I don't think we have to change.
...."
Sietsema: With that I would need a motion to direct staff to write a memo
to the City Council with the above noted concerns and comments.
Mady moved, Lynch seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission direct
staff to write a memo to the City Council with the above noted concerns and
comments. All voted in favor and motion carried.
UPDATES CONTINUED
Sietsema: Other updates, Herman Field was approved with the Forest Avenue
extension with the driveway section so that will be built. What now will
occur is that I will go to Mark and ask him to revise the Plan and the new
plan will have to be approved before we can do anything so that Plan will
come back to you and then go to City Council. Hopefully, we will be able
to move along quickly enough so we can actually do something next spring.
That's my goal.
~asek: Isn't there a way to shorten up some of these processes? It seems
.ike we're making a minor revision to the Plan right? ~
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 27
""
-./
Si~sema: We're flip-flopping things around but there are some people that
live up in that area that feel they were not contacted the first time it
was designed and this will appease a lot of their concerns. I just want to
make sure that we give them a chance to say I love that ballfield and
everything or they hate it or whatever. So in this instance, I would not
want to shorten it up. The next item was City Council action on the
referendum. The City Council approved putting the Community Center on the
referendum as a community center and ice arena. They approved putting the
fire station on the referendum and they approved putting on trail
development, park development at Lake Ann and money towards purchasing a
piece of property in the southern portion of the City as three separate
items.
Mady: One of the things in the park issues, were the only ones that got
separated although they were concerned about separating other pieces out.
The trail plan got accepted at $868,000.00. The Lake Ann redevelopment
grading got accepted at the $237,000.00 I believe it is which is to do the
full three new ballfields, the soccer fields and parking. putting all that
in. The southern park development got included in there at $300,000.00.
There was some concern however that since we do not have a specific site in
mind, we haven't set anything, that we probably will run into some problems
with that. Due to that question, I asked Al Klingelhutz later after the
meeting outside and asked him about specific parcels and he knows in the
~neral area that would probably fit well and he believes we can obtain
. nd there for about $3,000.00 to $3,500.00 per square acre which would
"give us roughly the 7 plus acres of land we would be looking for in a
community field. We should probably have that in mind. I mentioned to him
my gut feel i ng was tha t where I would 1 i ke to see one tha twas someho w
connected to Bluff Creek, south along the boulevard so it is definitely in
the City. I believe if it's adjacent to the TH 212 corridor, then it will
act as buffer between TH 212 and any development, any housing developments
that go in and solve some planning problems also. I think we should also
be aware of that because one of the jobs we're going to need to do is be
available to answer questions concerning the referendum because the
referendum needs to be marketed and sold as an actual product. It's not
just let this thing show up on a ballot.
Sietsema: That was something I wanted to bring up to the Commission is
that the Task Force is meeting next week so I'm going to have a list for
them, all of the dates that all of the community organizations, homeowners
associations, any group of people I can think of that meets in one spot.
The dates that they're going to be meeting in January and February. The
Task Force is going to go out to those meetings and inform the people of
what they've done. What they've found in their studies of the community
center and what their recommendation was and what it is that's on the
referendum. I would suggest that when all those dates come through, that
one or two of this commission also attend those meetings to go over why we
need parks. The survey that was done, why we need the trails. Why we need
~rkland in the south. The shortages that we have. The amount of
~ 'ogramming that we would be able to do if things were available. Just on
\ Je park and trail issues. I'm not planning on having another meeting in
""
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 28
.l
December but I can have all those dates to you for a meeting in January. -a
We will be meeting on the first and third Tuesdays starting in January"
because the City Council is moving to the second and fourth Mondays and we
want to be off from them. It really is ultimately up to you but that would
be really optimal for getting reports back to City Council. It just ;
doesn't work to have them on the same weeks.
-'
Lynch: Don't change just on my account but...
Sietsema: ~erhaps we could meet on another day of the week.
Robinson: How many items are on the referendum?
Sietsema: The community center, the fire station and two park issues and,
five.
Robinson: What's the total dollar amount?
Sietsema: It's roughly 5.5 million.
Robinson: Can we handle that?
Sietsema: We could do 5 million and give us 5 years to do it and we
wouldn't raise taxes. Roughly 5 to 5 1/2. I think what Don's feeling is,
f the voters give u~ 5 years to do all these projects, we can fund all of
them without raising taxes. Legally we can only go up to 3 million right
now but depending on how they prioritize things, if they give us 2 years to
do something, we can go in and purchase the property in the southern part
if that's the least priority or whatever in two years and be able to sell
bonds to finance that in two years. Because of the growth that we are
experiencing now, we will feel the monetary benefits in a two year
timeframe.
......I
Hasek: This is sort of related but not really. Have we talked at all
about the or has there been any more discussion or any looking into the
rest of the property adjacent to the Lake Susan development?
Sietsema: To tell you the truth, with everything that's corne to a head
with the referendum issue, I haven't done anything further on that. But
that is on my list of things to follow up on.
Mady: In I'espec t to the lTleet i ng s tha t Lor i is refer ring to in Janua t:y alfd
February, I will be attending a number of those as a member of the
Community Center Task Force and I have no problem with putting on a Park
and Rec hat and talking about the trails, Lake Ann and park issues at the
same time. I do plan on hitting a number of those.
Sietsema: Can I get a feel from the board if we can move to the first and
third Tuesday or if we move to another day of the week? We could possibly
~ove to Thursdays because if we aren't on the same schedules as the HRA.
~
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
__~cember 8, 1987 - Page 29
Boyt: We could schedule them for Mondays too.
Sietsema: Yes we could and that would be fine. If we moved to a Thursday
you would have more time to read your packet because it goes out on the,', 1
Friday the week before if it's on a Monday or if it's on a Thursday so
you'd have more time if that means anything to you. If you wanted to move
it to a Monday, that would work out fine too.
Hasek: That would be good for me because not very many planning
commissions or councils have meetings then. It's usually Tuesdays,
Wednesdays or Thursdays.
Lynch~ That used to be my scout night. I have all Mondays open. I have.
two Thursdays open. No Wednesdays open and no Tuesdays.
Sietsema: The reason the Council is changing to the second and fourth is
because they had a problem running into the legal holidays on those Mondays q
so you'll have more days off by moving to the first and third Mondays.
Lynch moved, Mady seconded to change the Park and Recreation Commission
meetings to the first and third Monday of each month. All voted in favor!
and motion carried. 1
r
-~letsema: We will not meet again in December so the first Monday in
January will be January 4th. I do have one more item. I put in front of
you a sheet that shows who's on the Commission and the last number is their
terms and the very last number is when they expi reo So as you can see, Jim
and Larry's terms will expire at the end of this month. I just wanted to
go over with you the procedure. In the past it was done different than the
last time. The last time we discovered in the Ordinance that it said that
the Park and Recreation Commissioners shall be nominated by the Mayor and
voted in by the Council. The Council will concur. In the codification
process we have changed that ordinance so all of the commissions are the
same. That is, the Council will choose the commissioners and vote them in
so what we will do is advertise for vacancies even if both people want to
reapply. Then we will schedule interviews at the Commission level and we
will invite the Council people in to sit in on those interviews and invite
their questions if they choose to ask any questions or whatever but you
will make the recommendation to the City Council. City Council can read
your minutes. If they want a certain person to be there, one of the
applicant's to be there to answer additional questions, they can invite
them into their meeting. Then the City Council will choose who will be
reappointed. Anybody who is on the commission has to reapply.
Lynch: That sounds like a terrible beareaucratic waste of time. It's
certainly a waste of my time.
~etsema: Would you rather have the mayor do it?
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Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 30
Lynch: I don't care who does it as long as they don't tie up the
Commission and the Mayor and the Council for two separate sessions.
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...."
Siets.eincF~o.( :;reeallywhat should happen is that the Council will just go
~ohlf.iW:lth,:YollrJ!recommendation on the consent agenda and it won't take any
time at all. That's the way we used to do it. The way we used to do it is
we held the interviews here and we sent our recommendation to the City
Council. '
Lynch: We held interviews here if there was a true opening.
Sie~a:(' That's what ~ just said. We had the interviews here.
,.~' :,
~lf: t, But now, whether theIe' s a true opening or not.
j51:": -,'
S'Jletsema:' We bave to open it up because the reason that is because the
ctotuncil may feel thQt for SOIToe reason someone is not living up to their
agreement on being on the Commission or for some reason they don't like
their approach or don't agree with them. They're not acting appropriately.
allrha-t" may:h'appen or they may only be attending 25% of the meetings.'"
, a ,r
r.y.nch: But y;nl and I both know that in a majority of cases, not only our
Commission but the rest of the commissions that the current commissioners
are going to get reappointed. That's wasting the time of juggling the
sri:?plicants to come in to &pply and it's juggling our time around. I guess
chat's what I con't like. 1 don't like to advertise an opening that really ."
in fact doesn't in fact exist a majority of the time.
Sietsema: But you have tv give other people the opportunity to come on to
:the Commission or you guys may never, ever want to leave and youlll always
be here regardless of your performance so we have to do it that way.
Lynch: Wouldn't you agree that in a strong majority of the cases that the
encumbant commissioner is going to get reappointed.
Sietsema: It has happened in the past that it hasn't happened that way.
,;:,
Lynch: A majority of the time?
9<",',
Sietsema: A majority of the time yes, that's correct.
Lynch: So if I was a citizen and saw an opening and came in and applied-,i
for it and then found out that the rule was the normally the commissioner!
was ~eappointed, I would feel like I just got jacked around.
j: 1_ ~ _ '. . ,
Sietsema: I can see your point but I don't think it's fair the othe~ way
either. We can inform the people that are applying that there is a person
that's reapplying and there's a good chance that they may be reappointed.
~ynch: You're going to have to de that. We can't change it but I still
)n't like it. If there's a problem with somebody on this commission or
....",
Park and Rec Commission Meeting
December 8, 1987 - Page 31
,...,
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some other commission. -' J. :rbnyJ
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Sietsema: I believe in the past though on this commission, the way we u~ed
to do it before we changed it the last time, that we did aQye:~rrtis.ejif~r,,9(2
vacancies even if the person was going to be reappointed., or; ~ep.ppJ{Yi ~~
didn't get any other appl icants .-~ . - , .; (~ -'S'm ,d
.. :).1 sf{ 9W
Lynch: Was that when Tom was interviewing or prior to that even? 1.(::;1';';0:)
Sietsema: No, that was this last time.
~- .~ :.:.
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Lynch: That I don't really remember. I do feel that to unseat sO~~i2
from the Commission, it should not be a single individual's right to do
that. I think it should be a council thing but I think the Counc,ilsP<>UA.P
certainly be aware if there's a problem at the Commission level. They get
all the Minutes and can address it- if there'~ a problem. That's like .:tJl~
ranger at scout camp went out to every campfire and personally putting[;~
out. That's ridiculous. ~6
, l.sdj
Hasek: I think what they should do and what I've seen done ~n ,the pas~Tis
there's always been a recommendation. The Commission, whatever one it is,
to reinstate or reject the people that are there. If anybody knows ,we.~
got a problem it's us or at least it should be. ~O~
r ~tsema: Your recommendation will be going. Y.ou will be interviewing :the
~eople and send a recommendation to the City Council who should fill th~t
spot. Whether it be the person reapplying or a new person. '(
Mady: Point of information, last night I was talking to Al Klingelhutz, ~
he's a Commissioner for the County. There's an opening on the County Par~
Commission. The opening is presently filled by a Chanhassen resident. He
was unsure if that resident was going to reapply or not. It's important
that we do have a commissioner.
Boyt:
That person is supposed to come to our meetings.
: i 3
Mady:
That guy, I don't know.
~ ",\.'1
Boyt: Yes, the Park and Rec Commissioner for the County is supposed to be
present at our meetings once in a whi Ie. ':.~ .;,!: 2.
Mady: In any event, Al indicated that that position is opening up s()::i.~J
there .is any interest. .' '{ :':)1
'.l :H5W
Lynch: If somebody doesn't come forward from Chanhassen, they'll fill it
f~.om som~place else. :: "'J' 2
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Mady: That's why Al was asking me.
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I"""nch:
It's for our benefit to get on that.
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'.....
,.,k and Rec Commission Meeting
D..emb*r 8, 1987 - Page 32
Mady: Can I alk you to follow up with Al to see if there is an opening and
if it'8 .O~.thin9 that needs to be filled, that we hear about it.
..J
aohroers: I wanted to add one thing. I was wondering if we could add to
'1\e agenda,next time that the Commission consider recommending to the
CG~ftc:il the,' biring of an additional full time park maintenance person.
Ai... two seasonal park maintenance people that can drive a vehicle for the
sliWlttter se.a$on.
LyYK:tn 1 think that. s a good idea because.
Battl They couldn't get everything done this summer.
Mad}' moved ,tta.sek seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and
moti..neatr ied. The meeting 'Was adjourned at 19,: 01 p.m..
~~t't~e'd by Lor;i Sietsema
;:P:.~k <a"nCl Rec Coor:dinator
prepareaby Nann 'Opheim
.."
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