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PRC 2005 10 25 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREATION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING OCTOBER 25, 2005 Chairman Stolar called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Glenn Stolar, Steve Scharfenberg, Ann Murphy, and Jack Spizale MEMBERS ABSENT: Tom Kelly, Paula Atkins, and Kevin Dillon STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent, and Dale Gregory, Park Superintendent APPROVAL OF AGENDA:Scharfenberg moved, Murphy seconded to approve the agenda amended to include an update on the skate park under old business. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 4 to 0. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: Hoffman: Halloween Party. Stolar: We’re all looking forward to it. Hoffman: Saturday. What times does it start? Ruegemer: 5:30. 5:30 to 7:30. Stolar: Now can you register online for that? Ruegemer: You cannot. Stolar: You cannot. But at the door. Ruegemer: At the door or call us and we can input for you. Spizale: By the way, what time do they want us there? Stolar: The volunteers. Ruegemer: About quarter to 5:00, 5:00. Stolar: Okay. Spizale: Do they have costumes for us? Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 Ruegemer: Would you like some? Okay. I’ll see if they’re up in the office. Spizale: They have such good ones. Hoffman: We might have the largest library in the city, or county. Ruegemer: I’ll check before you leave tonight. I think Charlie might have brought those up. Stolar: Okay. Any other announcements? Okay. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES:Murphy moved, Scharfenberg seconded to approve the verbatim and summary minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission meeting dated September 27, 2005 as presented. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 4 to 0. RECOMMENDATION CONCERNING 2005 ICE SKATING RINK LOCATIONS. Hoffman: Thank you Chair Stolar, members of the commission. Seen a lot of background data on ice rinks, primarily thanks to Dale who is here tonight to answer your questions and provide additional input regarding our ice skating program. On average we flood the rink for about 55 days per season and that is an average since 1982 so you’re talking about, just about a 2 month program. Traditionally our community park sites, those being City Center, and then the Recreation Center received a majority of the use. North Lotus Park with it’s hockey rink and lights and warming house and then a family rink as well also is fairly heavily used. And then rounding the rink locations that we had last year was Roundhouse Park which has the warming house building as the round house. It does not have the hockey boards or as good of lighting as the other rinks so it receives the least amount of use out of those 4 sites. Recently as 2000-2001 we flooded 15 rinks at 11 different locations. In 2001-2002 and again the following year the majority of our low use rinks were not flooded due to a combination of warm winter temperatures and then the previous year’s low numbers. With a couple of seasons back to back it just didn’t pay to flood all those rinks. This past season we flooded 8 rinks. We recorded an investment of about $3,000 in labor, primarily labor and some materials for rinks. If you spread that over the whole season, each rink requires about a $50-$55 per day investment to operate. If you divide that by the number of skaters typically found on one of our community rinks, it’s fairly inexpensive public recreation. Consider locations where days go by without a single skater and the value goes down slightly. The scenario of deleting rinks and then having residents attend a park commission meeting asking for them back is not new to the city. We’ve been through this 3 or 4 times in my tenure with the city. Rinks at Minnewashta Heights and Chanhassen Hills have been deleted in the past and then brought back and then deleted again because of low attendance. And I think it’s something about you just don’t miss something until it’s gone, even if you really don’t use it that much. There is some value to all of us in having the opportunity of at least knowing that it’s there, and I think that definitely comes into play when we have these conversations about skating rinks. However staff like the commission, we’re not immune to the desire to provide the service when the community requests it and I think the increase 2 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 neighborhood contact through our summer installs on our playgrounds generated some interest in those community, neighborhood park sites again. However, I don’t think we’re ever going to fight the past experience demonstrated that outdoor rinks in general and outdoor skating in general is on a decline, probably since the 70’s in Minnesota. Staff’s recommendation, understanding the desire of the Park Commission to once again test the popularity of our neighborhood ice rink program, will support the flooding of 3, what we would call test rinks this coming season based upon neighborhood requests and testimony at your last meeting. It’s recommended that family rinks be flooded at Chanhassen Hills, where we have a skating light already there. Probably put that on a timer for the year since we won’t have a rink attendant there. Rice Marsh Lake Park, which has received, at least this year the most input from neighbors, and then Pheasant Hill Park which will put a rink back into our northern tier of neighborhoods and you have received requests in the past for a hockey rink, or excuse me, a neighborhood rink there. Prior to the start of the skating season we would develop a usage analysis model for implementation over the 2005/06 season. That would include reports from Dale and his crew as they maintain these on a daily basis, more or less. They can easily see from that high vantage point in that flooding truck just how much use has been given to a rink on a daily basis. It would also include some eyewitness counts calculated by staff and the commission. You have a map as a part of the report this evening showing the four locations I referenced first. Roundhouse, the Rec Center, City Center and then North Lotus which are fairly uniformly divided east to west and the central part of our city and then what we would be calling test rinks at Chan Hills, Rice Marsh Lake and then Pheasant Hill. Staff’s available for any questions and be happy to work with the commission. Stolar: What I’d like to do is if there are pressing questions for clarification from Todd, we’ll do that and then we’ll invite our guest to speak. Any clarifying questions for Todd? Murphy: Just so only Chanhassen Hills has the lighting? Hoffman: Yes. Stolar: Would you like to make a comment then? If you would just state your name and address first. Jim Laurent: Sure. I don’t know if you need this or not. My name is Jim Laurent and I live at 8115 Erie Circle near Rice Marsh Lake Park. I just wanted to come down and talk to you, a lot of our neighbors have been, we understand, we’ve had some e-mail exchanges that Mr. Hoffman was going to recommend this tonight and we just wanted to show up and we wanted someone who also would show up and say thank you for the recommendation and thank you for your consideration of the proposal. We believe that this park, this skate park will be used quite a bit. We’ve really, you heard testimony last time. We got our, actually I just got done playing with my kids at our new park. We’ve really pulled together as a neighborhood and as people have said, every Friday night we’re down there with the kids time one day a week during the summer for kids time and everybody in the neighborhood comes down there. A lot of people do, I mean one time we probably had 30-40 people down there. So we’re hoping to continue that through the winter so we hope it gets used and it will be, that we don’t let you down with your reputation so I want to say thanks and just show our support. 3 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 Stolar: Okay. Any questions for Jim? Thank you Jim. Appreciate it. So, thank you Todd and staff for putting this together. We do appreciate it. We’ll start with Steve, any comments, questions, thoughts? Scharfenberg: I was just thinking that should we, I would like to see potentially a time, potential time or date put on it that if by such and such a date, and I know this is up to Dale and his staff, but if by say the second week of January, given the weather patterns we’ve had most recently, that I don’t know that it’s time, given the time intensiveness of everything and keeping those other 3 rinks open, that we would do this. I hope that it’s cold enough that by the end of the summer we can flood but I would say if by the second week of January, you know we’re still in a warm weather pattern, that I don’t know that it’s worth it to flood these 3 rinks and then maintain the other ones also. I’d rather see the 3 or 4 that we have main sites and just do those. th Hoffman: We have a policy in place that after January 11 or after we would cancel the season on all of our rinks. Scharfenberg: On all of our rinks, okay. stth Hoffman: And in the interim we flood, opening between the 21 or January 5, between that time. The last time this was updated we flooded Roundhouse, City Center, Chan Rec Center, th North Lotus and so we flooded only those rinks. And then December 20 or before we flooded all rinks and established so if you want to keep that policy. Scharfenberg: That would be fine. th Hoffman: If we’re not flooding before December 20, then we would not flood the three outside rinks. If we’re flooding prior to that time or earlier than that time, we would. There’s not as much time necessary for these neighborhood rinks so if you have interested, even if we, th December 20 comes and goes and we haven’t started yet because of number one, frost isn’t in the ground and we don’t have snow available to make it is one of the most important things. You may want to make an exception this year and allow us to continue on even, we like to try to open them by the Christmas break because of the daylight hours when they get out of school. Stolar: It’s an interesting point because it’s a question of whether we just follow the standard policy during this test time or not. I think it would be appropriate for us to make a judgment call I think at that time, don’t you think? Because it depends on what we see, yeah. I mean we want to try, because that’s what we’ve lost the last 2 times right, is being able to test is that we couldn’t flood. With the community that we saw, I’d like to try and do it as much as possible but at the same time within reason so I assume what you’re saying Steve is we’ll stick by this but then Todd you offered the opportunity for us to discuss it at that time if need be. Does that sound...? Spizale: That’s fine. Hoffman: You can tell if you’re getting close or if you’re in this long. 4 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 th Stolar: Exactly. That’s, we have to have a judgment there that yeah, December 20, that’s not good but we’re going to have a massive freeze over the next 10 days, we don’t want to just cut it off at that point. I believe we trust Dale’s judgment on all these. Okay, anything else? No? Hoffman: Dale’s probably spent more nights in a flood truck… Spizale: The only thing, it looks like everything’s really spread out nicely. I think they did a nice job of picking the spots and it’s going to make it a little bit more accessible to people to use a rink so it looks good. Hoffman: We’ll also put out a press release in the newspaper for when we start, we’ll explain the current program. The standard and then these 4 or 5 rinks. Give the community an opportunity to respond. Stolar: And so in November or December timeframe you’ll come out with a list for us to volunteer for tracking and such. Hoffman: We’ll modify the schedule that we had from the last time and we’ll modify that. Spizale: Maybe we can use Jerry’s snowmobile to track. Ruegemer: Any time. Hoffman: It’s also another good opportunity to talk with our residents, similar to what you’ll be doing with the playground projects. Find out some more about their interests…park system. Stolar: Any other things Jack? Spizale: No. Stolar: Okay, seeing no other comments, do I have a motion to approve the staff’s recommendation for the, concerning the 2005 ice skating rink locations. Murphy: Motion to approve staff’s recommendation. Stolar: Motioned by Commissioner Murphy. Spizale: Second. Stolar: Seconded by Commissioner Spizale. Murphy moved, Spizale seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that a family rink be flooded at Chanhassen Hills Park, Rice Marsh Lake Park and Pheasant Hills Park. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 4 to 0. 5 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 Stolar: Thank you guys, all of you for putting this together. I appreciate it and thank you to the community for bringing it to our attention again. SPECIAL EVENT PERMIT AND APPLICATION POLICY. Ruegemer: Thank you Chair Stolar. Obviously the City of Chanhassen really believes in special community events. We have a very rich history in providing opportunities for our residents to enjoy not only the Halloween Party coming up, Feb Fest, you know Easter Egg Candy Hunt and many special events that we have throughout the course of time. It really is a great opportunity for us to promote our city facility, business community and event sponsors. We do hear many positive comments about our special event series that really does bring our community together to make it really kind of a feel good special place to live. So many good comments through the years. As our community has been growing, steadily increasing over the last 2 or 3 years we’ve been getting a lot of requests for other community organizations to host some type of special event or you know kind of parties and that sort of thing within our park system. Just to name a few, certainly would be fresh in our minds the triathlon, Miracles of Mitch Foundation certainly has been growing leaps and bounds on an annual basis. Next year now they’re looking to do probably 2 adult triathlons in town. One in June and one in September, so really a lot of people are really starting to really, really take advantage of our nice, quality facilities and our nice infrastructure here within Chanhassen. We’ve also had cancer and MS walks go through town that have taken staff coordination to kind of make sure that everybody is safe with that. And also the energy health fair that happened out at the Rec Center here in September. There seems to be just a lot of new organizations coming into town and wanting to host kind of their own events. There hasn’t been necessarily a problem in the past. It just created some additional work load for staff in trying to coordinate between departments and organizations and Carver County Sheriff Department who are involved more often than not, more involved than city staff is with providing safe streets and safe environment for the event organizers and also participants. So we do have you know Miracles of Mitch. We certainly have the street department involved, engineering, public works, Carver County, park and rec was all involved in that organization so it really does involve a lot of departments and kind of pull all that together. And really like I said before, Carver County has a really an integral part in that since they’re the ones that are really are out on the front lines so to speak and directing traffic and closing down streets and that sort of thing. You know really I’ve really felt that it was necessary to kind of draft some type of special event policy for permitting application kind of a process for kind of a uniform process for people to come in. Whether it’s having a rally or a triathlon or other types of events, kind of have everybody go through roughly the same process of filling out applications. Going through the necessary steps to insure that they have a successful event. Not only on safety but organizationally as well. I have put together a couple different applications. You know in the past we’ve also had Joe Advertising Agency, Fallon, whoever come in from Minneapolis or wherever, different parts, want to shoot promotional or commercial types of situations within our park system. That’s kind of another thing that we’ve tried to address in the past. You provide us a certificate of insurance and make sure you take care of the park and it’s okay. But now going forward now and looking at this type of event permit or policy, certainly then we can have kind of safeguards in there to take a look at the whole big picture here and make sure we have all the information in place so we can base our decisions on some sound information that they provided 6 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 to the city. It is my recommendation that the Park and Rec Commission recommend to the City Council to review and ultimately adopt the attached race/parade permit application information and application forms specific to race/parades and other events or special event uses. If you flip over from the cover sheet, just kind of some application information that not only kind of addresses kind of the amount of business days that’s required for the city to kind of review. 14 days is not a lot of time on a lot of events, and like Miracles of Mitch we certainly try to do that months in advance just to make sure that we have coverage from Carver County not only from labor but if there’s volunteers that we can also pool that way. Stolar: Yeah, I was wondering why that’s so low. Ruegemer: Well in reviewing a lot of other cities’ information, they have 5 days on that. A lot of the bigger cities but we certainly can adjust that if you’d like to. That would be fine with me. Stolar: I was just surprised as to how you get all the coordination done in 14 days. Or does that mean that just the final application has to be submitted. Ruegemer: No, I mean that’s really start to finish. But more the better. Hoffman: Yeah, you could soften that by saying a minimum of 14 days. Or 30 days. Most of these events we are notified months in advance but some you’re not so. Ruegemer: For example, if you look at the President Bush rally. That was less than 14 days in advance that we kind of knew all of that was coming. Coming into town. Hoffman: Five. Ruegemer: Five days, so that’s the exception. Or like Todd had commented, you know Miracles of Mitch we certainly secured the date already for next year. Now that it’s kind of in it’s third year next year, a lot of the things kind of fall into place so to speak, but Dale and our department, Carver County, Public Works have always met 3-4 months in advance just to make sure that all the pieces are kind of put into place. The adult triathlons there’s already discussion about that. Already kind of starting for next year so a lot of these events do kind of happen in advance but it’s just. Stolar: Yeah, I think the difference, and I was just thinking through that, sometimes for rallies of whatever cause, you don’t know in advance that you’re going to have to need a permit for the rally, right? If something happens, whatever. Whereas you know races, advertise it and do all that so, maybe 14’s a good compromise. It’s a starting point. So if the City Council chooses to do any…they may have questions up there also. Ruegemer: You bet. Hoffman: And this page is specific to race and parades, so you have really two different applications. 7 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 Stolar: Well this one says parade and race on top here. Hoffman: Race/parade and then that goes with the race/parade permit application. This application would be self standing. These rules here. Ruegemer: Kind of provide a different information but this one is more for you know, whether it be rallies or photo shoots or that sort of thing. Some different information. Hoffman: The one that says rally/march/filming, television, that stands on it’s own. So this is the one piece of paper they get. If you’re going to stage a race or a parade then you’re going to have to abide by these items as well. Stolar: Gotch ya. Ruegemer: So going back to that application information, it kind of covers you know providing a map for kind of traffic flow, parking, what streets are going to be closed, that sort of thing needs to be provided to be reviewed and approved by our policing agencies. It notifies Gopher One call. Brings out the stakes or tents put out or into the ground. Portable restrooms, refuse containers, a lot of that type of information is pretty standard but wanted to include it as information so. And if you have information that you’d like to add or delete I certainly am eager to listen. Scharfenberg: I’m assuming Jerry the reason that we did this is that we just didn’t have anything like this before? Ruegemer: That’s correct. It was, I’ll say based on individual basis but I wouldn’t say that, but you know you kind of take it as it comes before. You know like Miracles of Mitch certainly has been kind of coordinated through our department and a lot of the kind of the facets of it and with coordinating meetings and combing of the beach and that sort of stuff so I guess what I would like to do is have something kind of uniform. Say okay, you want to do a children’s health fair next summer. Here’s an application to fill out just so we can have kind of the proper documentation in place and it’s consistent for everybody. Scharfenberg: Who ultimately has authority for granting of the applications? Ruegemer: I think it depends on the magnitude of the event. A lot of the, ultimately like Miracles of Mitch, that sort of thing, you know council certainly would need to approve that sort of thing. A triathlon coming through town. They need to approve. President Bush they wanted to approve. Hoffman: Anything over 50 people as a public gathering needs to be approved by the council. There are some things to think about and that’s what we’re looking at the commission to do is, th this is not a full proof process. Many, not many but the 4 of July is a jointly sponsored event. So the city is the main sponsor but then there are other joint sponsors. Are they going to be subjected to these requirements? The main test of this policy, in conversation with Roger Knutson our city attorney is that it needs to be equitable because the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts 8 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 of America want to host a parade in the city, you treat them the same as if the Anti-American Group Incorporated of the United States wants to come to town and host a parade. They need to be treated the same as the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts. So you need those regulations, how you’re going to treat each one of those equitably. Stolar: Can we make an assumption that these permits are going to be for non-city sponsored events? Hoffman: Probably not a safe assumption. Should be defined in there. Stolar: That’s what I’m saying. As a commission and from the staff’s recommendation, is that how you viewed it? It was more for non-city sponsored events. th Hoffman: Well yes and no. Should the city be incurring all the expenses for the 4 of July parade? Sponsored by another agency. There’s a lot of costs that go into that that we currently don’t pay for. Some traffic control. Restrooms. Cones. It’s always been, that’s what agencies do the first time they make that call. They say we’ve got a great idea. We’d like to try to sponsor it with you because it’s a great way to get into your pocket book you know. We want to organize a race for our group. We’d like the city to sponsor. You get that, that’s the first call that most people make. And you say, you know we have to make a decision. Typically it comes down to the park commission. We have our standard slate of activities and since that time races come to town, …it’s like well if you’d like to do a parade, it’s not a core responsibility of a public recreation agency so if you want to put it on, here’s what it’s going to take. Much of this is driven by public safety. Because we have a responsibility to respond and if we don’t put enough out there through a policy and there’s issues on the race course that day, and it’s a Sunday morning, they’re going to call out additional police force and it’s going to cost another $800, $1,200 that day and that cost goes back against the full citizenry of Chanhassen for a special event sponsored by an individual agency, either for profit or not for profit, and that’s not fair to the taxpayers as a whole. So that’s what we’re trying to get at. Is to how to treat these things fairly for everybody. The sponsors, the applicants and then the community. Stolar: Questions, comments? Spizale: I think it’s kind of a nice policy. You’ve got a list here of what you need to do. You know and who you have to call and I think that if someone gets this, I would imagine this would come with it too, it basically shows you all the people you have to contact with some of the who’s responsible for what and… th Scharfenberg: You know just thinking about the 4 of July parade and how you would handle something like that. Who’s involved in that? What primarily is done there? Hoffman: Currently it’s the Rotary. Prior to that it was a parade committee. And so the race, or excuse me, the parade started at our. Ruegemer: 1996. 9 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 Hoffman: Yeah, which was it? Ruegemer: Centennial. Hoffman: Centennial and then it was kept going by the race committee and they sponsored it and individually as far as a cap to take and hire the entrants that were paid entrants, but then throughout those years the city typically chipped in for the traffic control, law enforcement, those type of things. And then this year the parade sponsored by the Rotary, they paid for phones and th restrooms for the Taste of Chanhassen, which is another Rotary sponsored event as part of the 4 of July. The Chamber paid for half of the trade fair tent that they have on site, but the City would typically pick up things like overall refuse, overall restrooms at the street dance. So there’s a combination of things. You may just want to make a disclaimer saying this excludes events jointly sponsored by the city which are governed under a separate agreement. Because each time we go into one of these events we talk about it and say, yeah joint sponsors, they want to do more things. Okay, that’s fine. We’ll go along with that but you’re going to have to chip in, you know generate some cash. You’re going to have to pay for some of the things. Another way to look at it is, you don’t want to just be subsidizing, I don’t care what organization it is. The Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts or Chamber, the Rotary or the Lions and say yeah, come on in. Make a bunch of money. We’ll provide the tents, tables, chairs, garbage and then you go take the money and put it in your checkbook. That is again, that’s not in the public’s best interest, but it is in the public’s best interest to provide great community celebration so there’s a dividing line. Stolar: …on a couple things. One is permitting and one is the splitting of the costs, right? So if we say it’s not a city initiated event, you need a permit. That doesn’t prohibit the city from participating in something. It’s just says we’ll have a permit that says okay, they clearly define here’s what the city’s responsible for and here’s what they’re not. Would that work for what you’re trying to say that if it’s not a city initiated event? I’m trying to think of how we want to word it so that we’re clear of what we want. Or no? I mean I don’t know that we should decide it now either but is that what you’re kind of intending is that you’d like for anything that’s not a city initiated event so please strike out. th Hoffman: Halloween. 4 of July. th Stolar: Halloween. 4 of July, yeah. Those we wouldn’t probably necessarily go through this per se although you may individually want to use the same format. Right, for the events that you do, but we would require you, where the city is not the initiator. Hoffman: Yeah, for events other than these…events. So then we just have a separate letter of agreement for the joint sponsorships with other, you know we currently do with the Chamber and th Lions. The Lions sponsored the Feb Fest. Rotary again the 4 of July along with the Chamber, along with the Boy Scouts. Stolar: Right, but in those cases where the city is initiating the event so we’re just taking people to participate. Hoffman: Right. 10 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 Scharfenberg: The only other thing Jerry I saw in the application for the facilities use permit with the liability insurance, do you want to put a time line on that as to when that has to be filed? Ruegemer: Must be received prior to the event date. Scharfenberg: Yeah, something like that. Stolar: From a format perspective on this first one for the facilities use, it’s really more than just parade/race right, at the top? Ruegemer: Ah yes. Stolar: Okay. Okay. Any other questions? I think this is a good idea. Motion to approve staff’s recommendation on the special event permit and application policy? Spizale: So moved. Stolar: Second? Murphy: I’ll second. Spizale moved, Murphy seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend that the City Council review and ultimately adopt the attached race/parade permit application information and application forms specific to race/parade and other events/special uses. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 4 to 0. REVIEW CONCEPT FOR LAKE ANN PARK OFF-LEASH DOG AREA. Hoffman: Thanks Chair Stolar, members of the commission. First I’d like to have you put the aerial photo, it depicts an area for the proposed dog park. I was at Lake Ann two times today and I can attest that it still is acting as a dog park. Others will probably attest to that as well. Saw all sorts and shapes and sizes coming in and out of the park. So I showed an area 400 by 600 feet, approximately 5.5 acres. If we flip back the cover page talking about some of the costs. Fencing is $15 per foot. At that size that would be $30,000 and chain link fencing and gates, that would be necessary. Then you start talking about, do you have to bring water to the park, and for a dog park you probably would have to bring water to the park. If you serviced the area with water, then you also have to service it with a sanitary sewer connection for the drain water, similar to a drinking fountain. In the old days you could just run a water line out, let the excess water bubble down into a gravel pit. You can no longer do that due to code restrictions. Same thing at a dog park. So it gets expensive quite rapidly so $77,000 is a conservative budget to fence it, bring water, do some signage, those type of things. Offering some other input on the site, staff’s talked about it and during weeknights and weekends, parking areas in Lake Ann are already routinely overwhelmed. It’s one of our biggest complaints ever received from the public is about enforcement of no parking on the grass. Typically what people do is they try to find the quickest 11 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 spot to park, and if that happens to be on the grass, it’s on the grass. But these parking lots are used fairly heavily already. And a dog park I think is going to be an area that would add additional parking loads to Lake Ann. The area is currently enjoyed by people for it’s relative solitude and beauty. It’s an area unlike most in the city so the people that have discovered it, use it and appreciate it. There’s considerable lack of visibility from the parking area, entrance location into the site. During at least the times…people would pull in and really be able to see what kind of dogs or how many people are in the site so it would be a difficult visual thing. There’s some trails in there that currently are used and would be cut off. One of my greatest concerns would be that the site is heavily wooded with little or no ground cover and muddy spots. A person bringing their dog out of there today was washing off the dog’s feet before they went into the car. And then due to the forested conditions, if you try to make it smaller to reduce the cost I think you’re just going to make the erosion issues worst in that wooded and soil area. And then installing a big chain link fence inside a wooded area is going to result, would result in maintenance because you’re going to have trees that fall down, wind storms and limbs that fall down so it’s not an ideal location from a maintenance, and then you have fences out in open field areas, they don’t have issues with those type of things. Staff has always maintained that an off leash dog area would be welcomed. We just haven’t identified a good site. It’s kind of like the analogy that you go buy clothes and if it doesn’t fit, it just hangs on the shelf and you really don’t wear it and that’s what we’ve been looking for is this good fit for a dog park where you can say aha, that’s going to work and it’s going to, it’s not too visible. It’s visible enough. It’s got some nice open fields that people can see. In our community unfortunately we just don’t have that big open field and many other communities have found those areas, either in some of their land that they’re already holding or industrial area. Eden Prairie is using some industrial type park areas and then they’re also using hockey rinks for smaller dogs. Minnewashta, I haven’t talked to Marty since the last time we spoke but I just trust that he’s continuing on in their efforts to get the park up and running so I’ll continue that conversation over the winter but it would be staff’s recommendation that, or it’s just our opinion that we don’t believe that Lake Ann is the most viable place for a dog park. As much as we would like one. Stolar: Ann, you’ve got... Murphy: Well, Jack and I went back and forth on this because I kind of saw that. Well we just knew it was so heavily wooded that it’s going to be tough to open as an off leash dog area, and now there’s so much focus on the off leash dog area in Chanhassen. So many people are interested in it. If we open something that’s not going to work or isn’t quite right, doesn’t have the visibility that we need, I don’t think it’s, I mean I agree with you that it’s probably not a good idea. Hoffman: People are, you’re back to what they’re, people, they go all over to all the different parks and they find their little nitch where they, and I think most of them know they’re not supposed to be there but if this one worked, they’re just going to revert back to their old habits and stay where they’re at. If it’s not safe, if it’s not visible, if it’s not clean, then the site would be difficult. 6:00 or 6:30 on a softball night, there’s just going to be conflict with parking. Spizale: I can see the reasons. It’s a shame we don’t have an open spot and I think we should keep our eyes open and keep looking. It’d be nice to have a dog park where the people are so to 12 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 speak. We’ll just have to keep looking. You know maybe somebody will donate something or something will happen, but. Murphy: Or keep pursuing the Lake Minnewashta place, which is really our best option. That’s kind of what we came up with anyway in our research. Spizale: Yeah. Hoffman: I’m also quite convinced that the attitudes towards pet ownership and pets in general is going to continually to evolve in our society and there’s probably going to be things permitted in the future that aren’t permitted today or are viewed as being something that’s acceptable. These almost dog playground sites, talked to a gentleman from California where they used to have very, very small dog parks, or dog playgrounds where people would pull up, park and there was nothing other than poured in place rubber surfacing and where people could enter into the park and a playground for dogs. Very small. Quarter of an acre, less than that and they put these strategically located throughout their urban park systems where they didn’t have the space. Space in Chanhassen, open space is going to continue to be very difficult to acquire. We’re going to face that with the 2005 MUSA area where land prices are $200 to $300,000 per acre. It’s going to be a tough council you’re going to convince to buy 10 acres at $200 to $300,000 per acre for a dog park. So if you don’t have it today, and I think we have it at Lake Minnewashta hopefully. I think that’s going to be our go to location because if we don’t have the land resource today that’s viable, I just don’t see us acquiring it in the future. Our park system is pretty well filled out with the exception of the Bluff Creek corridor greenway and a couple of neighborhood parks as we continue on. We don’t have a large tract of open space. Up in the Fox Woods, which you generally land in the same issue. Fox Woods will come into our park system probably in about 2010 when that area starts to develop and we start getting some roads down there, and you need to be aware there’s also, there exists a large horse population or horse th lover population that is currently using that park along 96 Street, and they’re going to lobby the city and the commission at that time to continue riding horses on that property so, there’s going to be competing interests for the use of that open space. Stolar: I just have a few questions. One, we also talked about, okay. Start off, I think we all agree pretty much between this and the work that Ann and Jack did that Minnewashta for a dog park is our primary goal, so I agree with that, and I don’t see an opportunity in this location to put a dog park. It’s just not there so I agree with staff’s recommendation. We did talk about off leash allowable times in certain areas of certain parks. It’s something I think we need to revisit at some point because this, you know, the risk and I talked with some people who live out in the Minnewashta area and of course they’re very anxious for the dog park but they told a great story. They have greyhounds and they said, you know they walk them like everyone who came here and spoke to us, right. They walked in that wooded area with the path off leash. Well this one person did that. Got the dogs, as walking out, got the dogs on the leash and was walking out and saw the sheriff’s walking in to go give tickets. And that’s a risk I think even in Lake Ann still has, right? They can get a ticket for doing that. I would like us to still explore the times that could be balanced against the usage that would allow, middle of the day, whatever where yes. You know don’t worry about a ticket here other than not cleaning up. Like the appropriate things. But outside of that don’t worry about a ticket. That’s the only thing I still think we have 13 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 a possibility in this site to do. People are doing it now anyway but at least it’s a time where they can do it risk free. Just as a thought. The other question, we did talk at one point about this front park here. That area, understanding the cost probably is not viable but from all other aspects that th you mentioned here, right along this parking lot here on this front part towards 78 Street. That’s a big open field. So for many reasons that might work if at some point we decide that there’s something worth doing. It won’t give us the 15 acres I don’t believe, right? That would be an acre maybe. Hoffman: Yeah, if you look at 5.5, it would be less than an acre. Stolar: Less than an acre, but like you just mentioned with smaller parks, that is something in the future we can potentially look at if we wanted to do a smaller one, because it does have some of the other things that’s visible, pretty easy to chain in. You still have the cost though, factor. Spizale: What space is that Glenn? Stolar: That was right by the parking lots in the front there. I thought we at one point had mentioned that that’s a good space. Spizale: On this south side? Stolar: Yes. Hoffman: Between the road and the parking lot. Stolar: Right. Because that is easy to fence off. There’s parking right there. Doesn’t have the water. Fencing costs money. Hoffman: I think the challenge there is that people are going to show up and they’re going to go, I can go in this little fenced area over here, or I can go in the big soccer field over here. I think I’ll take the soccer field. Stolar: I think the recommendation is fine. I’d still like us to at some point think about off leash times. Hoffman: Yeah, that is the off leash, unofficial off leash dog parking area today and they go out on the soccer field or else they go in the woods. The difficulty with amending ordinances where you’re putting off leash animals into an uncontrolled area is that you’re going to get some issues of…concern. We have a property owner to the west with German Shepherds that aren’t going to mix very well with off leash dogs in that woods if it’s, especially if it’s advocated by the city. He’s going to come to this meeting and he’s going to tell you right there that it’s not a very good deal. There’s challenges. Murphy: Yeah, without fencing it’s always going to be tough to enforce anything. 14 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 Stolar: So again this probably rounds out our work on this though that we’re focusing on Minnewashta. Hoffman: And then focus on the CIP for the council. Hopefully they approve that so we can move our support of the Minnewashta site. Stolar: Was yesterday’s pre-meeting with the City Council for the CIP or just for the operating budget? Hoffman: For the operating budget. Stolar: Okay. Because I didn’t get a packet so I didn’t go to the meeting but I noticed that was on it. Okay. Great. Any other questions? Okay. I don’t believe there’s action required on here is there? Hoffman: No. Stolar: Okay. Thank you again for pulling this together. SKATE PARK UPDATE. Hoffman: It’s been going very well since the last closure. I’ve not spent as much time up there. Little quieter. We had some school days off over MEA when it was fairly busy. Dale, any comments from your crew? Gregory: No, it has definitely gotten better. Now with the kids back in school and that. I mean there was a lot of time in the evening that they’re there but it is cleaner. Stolar: With the comments that Councilperson Lundquist made regarding the sheriff’s contract he brought to bear, he said he wanted other things to consider including skate park. Was that discussed again? Hoffman: No. Stolar: Did you understand what his concerns are? It’s just how the deputies will help us out over there or? Hoffman: Yeah, I read the newspaper article. Like the rest of you I didn’t, have not had conversation with Councilman Lundquist but just, I think he wanted to see more of a presence by the law enforcement at the Carver County Sheriff’s level at the skate park. They do stop by regularly so he thought it was improved… Stolar: Okay, so not a new issue. Just making sure that we’re on top, okay. Thanks. Hoffman: And we’ll open it up again. We’ll most likely go through a similar site. Thanks Dale. 15 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 Stolar: Thank you Dale. Scharfenberg: Wait, before Dale leaves, did we get the poured, is the poured in place at Lake Susan? Is that? Hoffman: It’s going to happen next year. Scharfenberg: Next year? Okay. Stolar: So everything else is in but that so it’s still closed off, right? Hoffman: Yeah. We’re going to fence it. Construction fence it over the winter and then bid the rubber in probably February or March for installation. RECREATION PROGRAMS: 2005 PICNIC SITE EVALUATION. Ruegemer: I’ll give kind of the cliff note version of this. Just information for the council, or excuse me, for the Park and Rec Commission tonight. We seem to be kind of staying in that 90 to 100 picnics per year kind of timeframe. Seems like the players kind of shift around a little bit. We do have quite a bit of repeat people but we also have new people that try it on an annual basis. Total revenue again was around that $9,300 mark for the four sites. We had certainly Lake Susan and Lake Ann. The pavilion and the shelter at Lake Susan are the most popular. Something new this year, I wanted to kind of see how many participants that we were hosting at st that. We had over 7,000 people use our picnic facilities over the summer time. Probably May 1 st to about October 1, first weekend in October for our last picnic so that was interesting to kind of see how many people that we were touching and how many customers that we were having at our facility so that’s kind of neat thing to see. As you can kind of see there, we did break down kind of each facility again on kind of what days of the week. How many reservations were made at each picnic site. I think that’s helpful for the commission to take a look at. They want to gauge a tiered system on certain days of the week, which we’ve done and really at this point I think people have really accepted our tiered system. You know the weekday and weekend rates and I think people have embraced it and gotten used to it and are fine with it so I think that was a good recommendation that the Park and Rec Commission did kind of changing that fee schedule around. This seems to be working out just fine. A lot of people like our picnic facilities. The two shelters in particular with the restrooms and electricity, access to water. Those type of things. We hosted a number of graduation parties this year. Weddings. Family reunions. Anniversary parties. That sort of thing so a lot of people like kind of that park setting. Certainly Lake Ann, Lake Susan have their own individual amenities that appeal to a wide variety of people so, that’s always good. Certainly we could do at times a little bit better job at cleaning the facilities. We do get some comments back to that. They’re cleaned 7 days a week during the summer time and every time there is a picnic say we do make sure that the garbage is picked up and the coals are emptied and the bathrooms are stocked, that sort of thing but sometimes some things are overlooked and we certainly look to improve on that. Certainly look to, as you see the Lakeside and the Parkview picnic areas are really minimal reservations. Very minimal. 16 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 Hoffman: That shows you how important the shelter is. Ruegemer: Yeah, I think that really is illustrated within the reservations at those two facilities so with, to look down at the 5 year CIP I think we’ve talked about that at Parkview. That may be something that we should consider at some point in time to at least add a minimal shelter. Whether it be a simple roof situation with some electricity. People really do like having the security blanket of having a covered area just in case of weather. And we all know how things quickly things can change with that so, I know people are going to be thrilled with the new playground at Lake Susan Park. That certainly is a popular location. They like the close proximity of the playground equipment to the picnic site itself. They can, everybody can sit at picnic tables and still feel comfortable that their kids are in sight and that the new equipment is only going to increase the popularity of that park system itself so. We’ve had real good response to that. I did kind of break those down again and we had, I did also include 2004 for comparison sake to kind of see where we increased or decreased on overall reservations and kind of where we were for residents. You know regular resident, private resident business rather than school, non-resident and non-resident businesses and so forth so you kind of see how that breaks down per location and per day. Just information I thought that the commission would like to take a look at tonight. Stolar: Jack, any questions? Spizale: Jerry, why such a…revenue between 5 and 4? Ruegemer: Between the 5 and 4? Hoffman: 05 and 04. Ruegemer: Oh I’m sorry. Spizale: Is that up or down or same or? Ruegemer: You know I want to say it was probably within $500 of last year. Spizale: Up? Ruegemer: Yeah, right. You know it seemed like we kind of, we maintained that you know, from 90 to 100 and the revenue was right around that same. Where we 93 this year. I think we were in the 95 range last year so we’re give or take we’re about in the same ballpark every year. It’s pretty consistent. Hoffman: Down 3 picnics. Spizale: And how long do the shelters stay open as far as. 17 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 st Ruegemer: It’s May 1 we open up and give or take, you know maybe somebody wants to do st something a little earlier but typically it’s on the tail end the October. You know October 1 is rd kind of our soft date that we have, but the Dance Warehouse today open house their October 3 I think it was this year. So give or take. If the weather’s nice, we’re not in really, if we’re not in real danger of things freezing up like that, we may keep it open another week or two after st October 1. Spizale: So it kind of goes into the fall a little bit. Ruegemer: Yeah, you bet. Just to increase the revenue a little bit and then the park maintenance staff typically drain water on rainy days in October before the cold weather kind of hits us. So it’s a little bit different now that we have constant heat down there, just to make sure the form, that it doesn’t freeze up and push frost, but give or take about the first couple weeks of October. Spizale: That’s all I got. Stolar: Okay. Thank you very much. 2005 HALLOWEEN PARTY. Ruegemer: Yeah, Halloween we did talk about already. I do have the volunteer list from last month as well, if people want to kind of revisit their times and kind of program they signed up for. I can check upstairs and see if the costumes. Stolar: Was he just going to bring them on Saturday? Ruegemer: Well, if you want to stick around tonight, let’s see if they’re up there, if you want to take them with you tonight or we can bring them out there as well. If we kind of know what we want. So I can take a look at that. I processed a couple checks in Corey’s absence. He’ll be back tomorrow but Corey did a lot of the check processing and stuff here last week to get into finance so we’ll get everybody paid Saturday night. Corey and I went and bought oh, about 15,000 pieces of candy that’s already to go and all set. Stolar: Did we talk to Cub at all about helping us? Ruegemer: It works out better for us in a lot of ways to go to Target. They store it for us and do a lot of different things for us. We can pick it up then on Friday and it’s a little bit more seamless for us and that application. Plus bigger quantities is helpful for us as well. You know other than that, we’re pretty much ready to go. People have been calling and registering and also turning in registration forms so, we’re all set. 2005 TREE LIGHTING CEREMONY. Ruegemer: The 2005 tree lighting ceremony is going to be coming up again Saturday, Decembrt rd 3 at 5:00, right here at City Center Park. 18 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 PRESENTATION OF MEMORIAL GIVING POLICY BROCHURE. Hoffman: I’ll present the Memorial Giving Policy brochure. It formalized trees, benches and then dispersing of ashes if people would desire in our park system is all explained here. The memorial tree plaque, we get to plant the tree. You know location of your choice and then there’s going to be a plaque, memorial tree program. It will be fairly well established plaque and probably out in this hallway, in the public hallway out here. So then the names will start to begin to assemble on here. We have this type of a program for some years but just no formal recognition. And then the benches, the plaque goes right in the bench. Some of these benches, some in the park system already. Lake Ann, Carver Beach, Roundhouse. So they’re around already. Permanent bench guaranteed for 10 years and trees are guaranteed for 5 years. People can go online and fill out a form and send it right in. Stolar: When we first talked about it there was some statements about wording that I didn’t see in here. Where those had to be taken out or? Hoffman: What about? Stolar: …name of the person or what was the other, I didn’t see it mentioned here. Hoffman: Number 4 on memorial bench. A brass plaque in memory of the name of the person. Recognition of public office, dates of birth and death. Stolar: Oh okay. Yeah, I’m sorry, yeah, it’s okay. Hoffman: And then memorial tree, the name plate, a memorial plaque shall give the full proper name. Nick names where appropriate may be included…and then it talks about no additional metals. Just want to stay away from the graveyard effect. Murphy: How common is that? The ashes being scattered in a park. Hoffman: We’ve never had an ashes scattering in our park system but throughout the country it’s very popular. Especially at national parks, ocean fronts. Stolar: If we build a dog park. Hoffman: …we’re not going to put them at home plate, but you know wooded area or if someone’s favorite beach front, that’s… Stolar: If anyone wants to build a Parkview shelter for us, we’ll put a plaque. Hoffman: Absolutely. We’ve accounted for that. Other memorials. Picnic shelters, playgrounds. …of Plymouth he told me the story once where a person walked into his office and said I’d like to make a donation. Well what would that be and she wrote a check out for $50,000. I want to buy a playground. 19 Park and Rec Commission – September 25, 2005 Stolar: Again we will welcome that. I would love to have that. Hoffman: Don’t see that every day. Stolar: Great. Anything else? Any questions on correspondence? Hoffman: There was a great report on the bluebirds from Director Dale Rusch. He is a fine gentleman out at Arboretum Village who maintains the bluebird houses at Lake Ann Park. Does a great job. Look at the fledglings. 34. That’s a lot of bluebirds. Stolar: Is that the most? Hoffman: Most I think he’s counted out there. I mean we had one house missing so he does a great job for us. And he bikes from there to here, back and forth and I’ve never seen him in a car so he’s a great guy. Stolar: Alright, seeing no other business, motion to adjourn. Scharfenberg moved, Murphy seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned at 8:35 p.m.. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 20