PC Minutes 3-21-06
Planning Commission Meeting - March 21, 2006
and redevelopment of the city. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with
a vote of 5 to O.
PUBLIC HEARING:
LAKE RILEY /RICE MARSH LAKE WATER QUALITY IMPROVEMENT: REQUEST
FOR A WETLAND AL TERA TION PERMIT FOR EXCA VA TION AND
MAINTENANCE OF FIVE (5) STORM WATER PONDS FOR THE PURPOSE OF
IMPROVING WATER QUALITY IN THE RICE MARSH LAKE AND LAKE RILEY
WATERSHEDS. PLANNING CASE NO. 06-06. RILEY-PURGATORY-BLUFF CREEK
WATERSHED DISTRICT.
Public Present:
Name
Address
Ken & Liz Nystrom
Bob Myers
Kathy Slavics
8501 Tigua Lane
8131 Dakota Lane
8140 Dakota Lane
Lori Haak presented the staff report on this item.
Sacchet: Thanks Lori. Questions, Dan.
Keefe: I've got a couple questions. First one, can you list, how does expanding, it looks like
most of these ponds are going to be expanded and enlarged, right so how does that then translate
to clearer water in Rice Marsh Lake? Are we going deeper? Maybe you can just show me, give
me an example. Runoff goes in. Sand gets trapped wherever then it goes out. Real simple.
Haak: Yeah, that's exactly right. I don't have to say much more than that. Yeah, the primary
functions of storm water ponds is to trap the sediment, the big particles so not only trash but also
the sand from road salt applications and things like that. The other is for nutrient removal, and
so when you have, especially when you have a larger pond with a little bit more residents time,
the very find particles can settle out and in fact vegetation has a big part to play in removing
some of those nutrients before the water goes on to the next part in the system, whether it's Rice
Marsh Lake or Lake Riley. So really by getting a big pond, what we're doing is consolidating...
The original proposal for, that the watershed district brought forth included a lot of storm water
ponds. Actually some in rear yards off of places like Marsh Drive and Lake Drive, off of
commercial pieces and things like that, and what they were able to do by having a little bit more
wetland impact, they were able to leverage a bigger area so for maintenance purposes and just
construction feasibility purposes, they could consolidate those. In addition there's some
evidence that regional ponding is more effective than water quality treatment so, that's kind of.
Keefe: Where does all the fill go?
4
Planning Commission Meeting - March 21, 2006
Haak: That is up to the watershed district because they are the project proposers so, that is
something that we conditioned. It's recommended as a condition by staff is that they cooperate
with staff and let us know where that material is going.
Keefe: Does it stay in the city here?
Haak: Not necessarily. In some cases it does and in some cases it doesn't. It depends on the
contractor they end up getting and where they have a home for that material.
Keefe: Okay. And then just help me understand the wetland bank piece. Ifwe're creating larger
wetlands, are we creating larger wetlands or are we not creating?
Haak: Actually these are wetland impacts because we're excavating wetland to turn it into storm
water ponds. So the wetland banking.
Keefe: Okay. Not one, they aren't the same?
Haak: No, no. No, they have different regulatory standing so yeah.
Keefe: Alright, so because we're impacting wetlands and turning them into storm water ponds,
we essentially are reducing the amount of wetland right?
Haak: Correct. And the required mitigation rate for wetland impacts is 2 to 1, so the watershed
district is actually buying over 6 acres of credit in order to mitigate for this project, and those
credits are already constructed. They're already in the state wetland bank so we're actually
getting 2 to 1. Unfortunately it's not in Chanhassen, but we are getting some really good water
quality improvements in the opinion of staff.
Keefe: Okay, great.
Sacchet: Any other questions? Jerry.
McDonald: Yeah, I've got some questions. These retaining ponds are mainly to clear up the
water going into Lake Riley, is that correct?
Haak: Well Rice Marsh Lake and Lake Riley, correct yes.
McDonald: And it's storm water that actually fills the ponds.
Haak: Correct.
McDonald: Now last year I know we had some problems with water over in this area as far as
you know some flooding and everything. Is this going to help those types of situations?
Haak: Well is there one specific pond that you're thinking of or?
5
Planning Commission Meeting - March 21, 2006
McDonald: No. In the area over around Lake Drive I believe, in that development when we had
the big storm, there were some issues with water.
Haak: Boy, I'm not.
McDonald: Okay, I could be wrong but, will this begin to help some of those problems as far as
keeping flooding down to a minimum?
Haak: Well the great thing about two of these ponds is that they're adjacent to large water
bodies that have a lot of holding capacity, so in keeping these ponds down lower in the
watershed, we're able to storm much more water and yes, in excavating these there will be some
water quantity benefit, but the primary benefit is going to be water quality in most cases.
McDonald: Okay. And in relation to last year's storm, considered a 100 year event, how will
these help the city as far as managing water during a storm of that kind of capacity and
everything?
Haak: Sure. The only one of these basins that I'm aware of that caused problems, or
experienced any sort of problem in those two storms of last year is the Market Boulevard pond.
There was some water that ran across Market Boulevard. Currently it runs under Market in most
scenarios, toward the east. To the pond that's just right, just south of Applebee's and Walgreen's
there, and in several cases, actually I think in both of those storms there was water in the street.
Now that's again, that's the only one, and between Alyson and I we received a good number of
calls on storm water and that's the only one that I'm aware of. In this case, I'm not sure that in a
storm that large that this will help in a significant fashion, but there will be some benefit from
that, from those excavations. Alyson, can you speak to that or are you aware of any additional
problems?
Fauske: The only other problem that I'm aware of was on south of Lake Drive East just off
Cheyenne Avenue. That little eyebrow cul-de-sac area. There was a gentleman who we did go
out and talk to. Basically the issue is, is his garage is lower than the street in the low point of the
road drains towards the park back there and went through his back yard and so he had water
going down his driveway. But I mean as far as speaking to these projects and the ability to help
that situation, that's why we don't allow garages lower than the street anymore. Just because of
situations like that where we have those huge events that our storm sewers aren't designed to
handle that.
McDonald: Okay. But will this improve our capability you know just any amount or?
Fauske: Yes.
McDonald: I have no further questions.
Sacchet: Any questions?
6
Planning Commission Meeting - March 21, 2006
Undestad: One quick one. The storm ponds, you know the other storm ponds throughout the
city, do you have to come up here when you're going to start cleaning out, just for the
maintenance and cleaning of those or just when you alter the wetland?
Haak: Yes. There, that's a really good question and a lot of people, even in my position struggle
with that. There are generally two kinds of storm water ponds in the city. There are the ones
that were constructed in upland areas, in areas that were not wetlands. Have never been wetlands
and only start to take on wetland characteristics when you excavate them. Those you basically
can go in whenever you need to either make those bigger, as long as you're not impacting any
additional wetlands, or just clean out the sediment. For those that were constructed, like these
were, at least some of these were, actually all of these were constructed in wetlands already, and
those when you make them bigger or you know extend the wetland impact, then you need to
come and get all the appropriate approvals and get the technical folks from all the agencies to
sign off on that as well so, it's just that second group that would need planning commission and
city council approval.
Undestad: Okay.
Sacchet: Question Debbie?
Larson: Well yeah. Just getting back to the pond that we have dug out, and I think we probably
addressed this at another meeting but I'll bring it up again. How often do we go in and do
maintenance on these ponds, especially ones within the city? And then I was noticing the one by
Market Street, the smaller portion where the little, what do you call it, a bridge or, it seems like
it's deeper on that end. So that's why you, but it will fill up at some point and that's when you
have to go and dig it out again.
Haak: That's correct.
Larson: So when you get to that point is there another impact?
Haak: No, the Wetland Conservation Act and the city allow for the maintenance...ponds for
sediment removal because actually those affect the function and the value of that wetland. If you
have let's say a very nice wetland and for some reason you've got a pipe going there that leads
from a major road, if you've got a lot of sand and things like that that are spread on that road,
they run off into that wetland. It's the activity of removing that deposited sediment from that
wetland is exempt from the rules. So that's something that is anticipated by that Act. With
regards to the city, we have about 400 storm water ponds in the city and we've recently
completed an inventory of those and actually the State of Minnesota and the Environmental
Protection Agency have recently, in 2003 was when the state law was, or rule was passed, that.
Actually it wasn't a rule. It was a permit that was issued and that was done in 2003 that requires
the inspection of all storm water infrastructure pipes and catch basins and storm water ponds on a
5 year basis. So we'll have to do, at least inspect 20% of our storm water ponds every year from
now on. Now that we know where they are.
Larson: So that's new?
7
Planning Commission Meeting - March 21, 2006
Haak: Exactly, yes. And actually the Planning Commission will be seeing our Surface Water
Management Plan at the April 4th meeting. And actually holding a public hearing on that, and
it's part of that and I'll go into greater detail then, but typically also to get to another question
you asked was, the maintenance cycle for a storm water pond is anywhere from 10 to 20 years,
depending on how much primarily again it's sand. That pond receives.
Larson: Based on the need mainly.
Haak: Exactly.
Larson: Alright, thanks.
Sacchet: Yes Jerry, go ahead.
McDonald: I hate to keep asking questions about the water and the capacity but you said a
couple things I just want to get clear. The purpose of these ponds is to take care of the water
quality within Rice Lake and Riley Lake. It is not to mitigate flooding in those types of issues,
so the driver for maintenance is the purpose of clearing up water so, we're not looking to keep a
certain depth in there for capacity, for flood run off or any of those things?
Haak: Well there is, and that gets into a little bit of the engineering and the storm water facilities
and I'm not the engineer here so Alyson will jump in and correct me if I'm going astray, but
generally in storm water pond designs the area below the normal water level is the water quality
volume, and that's what we're increasing, or the watershed district is proposing to increase in
this project. The area above that normal water level is the flood control volume, so really you
can only gain significant strives by raising that level which would be the 100 year level of that
pond. So you get the, it's called dead storage below the normal level and you get the live
storage, or the flood storage above that normal water level. And because in this case we're
excavating out below the normal water level, that's where we're getting our water quality
benefit, because that water is still, and it stays in the pond for longer.
McDonald: Okay, thanks for clarifying that.
Haak: Does that make more sense?
McDonald: Yep.
Sacchet: Just one quick question Lori. You mentioned a concern with Lake Riley water quality.
Can you say a little more specifics about that. What type of issues did we encounter that this
would be a good counter measure for.
Haak: Sure. Primarily the issue that we've seen are you know the typical lake issues. The high
phosphorous levels. The high chlorophyll levels, which results or you know which is an
indicator of increased algae or duck weed, things like that in the pond. Or in the lake, I'm sorry.
And additionally it would be that decreased visibility or the secchi depth. So if you're out
8
Planning Commission Meeting - March 21, 2006
boating on Lake Riley and happen to go to Lotus Lake, Lotus Lake may be a little bit more clear
at certain times of the year and Lake Riley might get a little bit greener. A little bit more green a
little faster. Those types of things. So those are all the primary indicators of that water quality
and it just compromises the usefulness of that water body, both for recreational purposes as well
as for habitat for the plants and animals that live there.
Sacchet: Thank you Debbie. This is a public hearing so I'd like to invite any residents that
would like to address this issue in front of us. Is there anybody here? If you want to come up to
the podium.
Kathy Slavics: Do we have to come up?
Sacchet: You have to come up, sorry. And if you want to pull the microphone up a little bit so it
points, and if you want to tell us your name and address for the record, we'd appreciate that.
Kathy Slavics: My name is Kathy Slavics and I live on Dakota Lane which is, my back yard
backs up to St. Hubert's which is on Rice Marsh Lake, and I am not familiar with a lot of what's
proposing but I'm curious with 212 coming in, and with Rice Marsh Lake expanding towards
212, how much are we going to be losing of kind of our buffer with noise and all of that because
it looks like it's going to be expanded quite a bit.
Sacchet: Do you want to say something about that Lori?
Haak: Sure. Actually they're on Dakota and. Basically the existing pond, if you look, the
existing pond is right here. So the expansion is primarily to the south and east. There is a small
area of existing trees here that is proposed to be removed. But there also is an existing open
water area, if you're familiar, can see it from your home probably up here. So it's just, the scale
on this is 1 equals 60, so it's extending approximately 120 feet further south than the edge of the
open water. So when you look at the entire, I'll go back to this one. When you look at the entire
area as a whole, this is where the edge of the existing open water is, and you know the proposal
is to extend it a little bit further south. So it still won't nearly go out to the main part of Rice
Marsh Lake. And again the area that will be removed is kind of right in here.
Kathy Slavics: Okay. And just out of curiosity do you know where the easement is that needs to
be done on somebody's property?
Haak: Actually there isn't. This is the Jerome property. All of these four, 1,2, 3, 4 are all city
owned. This is the one that has an easement so that property owner has already signed the
easement is my understanding or that's in negotiations so.
Kathy Slavics: So basically all of this area, I'm right here on the cul-de-sac. I have 2 1Iz acres
that back up to St. Hubert's. None of that will be changing? I mean I don't have to worry about,
because I know part of my property is on the other side of the trail.
Haak: Right, no. The only thing would be that there will be access across that trail but they
would.. .
9
Planning Commission Meeting - March 21, 2006
Kathy Slavics: Right, and we have a couple easements in our back yard right now so.
Haak: Yep, and that will stay, access will remain into the open part.
Kathy Slavics: Okay. And I wonder too, we had a ton flooding all along here where 101, you
know towards 101 that I wonder if, I mean hopefully that...because we lost a lot of our trails, and
do you know if this is affecting the proposed trails as far as going all the way around the lake?
Haak: Ah no. The, whatever parks and recreation trail system they have worked out, this would
not affect that. The Park Director has reviewed all of these plans.
Kathy Slavics: Okay good, thank you.
Sacchet: Thank you. Anybody else would like to address, please come forward and if you let us
know your name and address. And pull the microphone towards you please.
Bob Myers: Bob Myers, 8131 Dakota Lane. Could we put up the map or the, by Dakota Lane.
Haak: Sure.
Bob Myers: Currently these lots run into where the proposed pond to be expanded, is that
correct? These are the corners of the lots.
Haak: That's something we'll have to check into. Again this is a watershed district project and I
assume that there were no impacts to private properties unless those lot lines.
Bob Myers: I am the original owner of the land. I very well know where my property line is and
these are the corners of my property. These are my neighbor's properties, and they are all
impacted.
Haak: We would need to check on that and determine whether or not there are drainage and
utility easements existing or if in fact there, those property corners are appropriately shown.
That's something again that I was not aware that, if that is indeed the case, we'll take a look at
that.
Sacchet: So what you're stating is that according to your knowledge some of this ponding would
touch onto individual's properties.
Bob Myers: Very much so.
Sacchet: Okay.
Bob Myers: Yes, the property lines, property actually now extends past where the existing pond
is and into a private pond.
10
Planning Commission Meeting - March 21, 2006
Sacchet: Yeah, that's definitely something that we need to look into.
Bob Myers: It's actually shown on the map. So the map is drawn correctly, but the property
lines on there.
Haak: That's news to me. We'll check into that.
Sacchet: We'll have to look into it. Thank you for bringing that to our attention.
Bob Myers: Well my next question is then, there's property line markers for these lots and I'm
wondering how those would be affected.
Haak: Well that would, I'm sorry.
Sacchet: Go ahead.
Haak: If! may. That would depend on whether or not that is indeed the case. If that's the case
then we would have to work with, or the watershed district would have to come up with a
proposal for that so that would need to be addressed as a part of that, and you know certainly
again if it's on your property they would need to communicate with you regarding that so, we'll
look into that.
Bob Myers: Alright, my next question is when is the start and finish of the construction.
Haak: For these... we're looking at winter construction because it minimizes the amount of
impact to the rest of the water resource. Some of the others are waiting. . . this construction
season but again the property owners adjacent to these would be noticed prior to that
construction. I believe, I forget exactly how we worded the condition. I think yes, at least 2
weeks prior to the beginning of work is what is recommended.
Bob Myers: So most likely it won't be until next winter?
Haak: For these along Rice Marsh Lake, that's correct. That's my understanding.
Bob Myers: Okay. And my last question is that, will the property taxes of the people adjacent to
the pond, are they affected in any way?
Sacchet: Pond proximity tax. Do we have such a thing?
Aanenson: Yeah, I'll speak to that issue. No, there's no assessments. No, the watershed
district's paying for these projects with the city paying a small portion.
Bob Myers: Okay, thank you.
11
Planning Commission Meeting - March 21, 2006
Sacchet: Thank you. Appreciate it. Anybody else would like to speak to this item? This is your
chance to come forward. Seeing nobody else getting up, I will close the public hearing and bring
it back to the commission. Lori, did I understand Alyson is actually going to look at this.
Haak: Yes she is.
Sacchet: What you propose, I mean this is pretty significant information that was potentially
impacting this, isn't it?
Haak: It is.
Sacchet: So what would we do if this is the case?
Aanenson: Well they would have to have permission to approve that pond. If that pond is on
private property, they would have to get permission for that so. So it looks like we need some
clarification. I think that can be resolved through a condition that appropriate easements are
secured and access to property if there is an issue.
Sacchet: We can add a condition to that effect.
Aanenson: Correct. That's what I would recommend, yep. Yep, and then the watershed district
also communicate to those property owners showing them where that property line is.
Sacchet: Okay. Do we have any wisdom to share ladies?
Aanenson: I still think it'd be a good condition to put in regardless.
Sacchet: Did you want to say anything to this still Lori?
Haak: Yes if I might. We have pulled the plat from the Hidden Valley subdivision, which.
Aanenson: Can you zoom in on that Nann? Pull it towards you a little bit Lori and down.
Haak: It's hard to see. I believe these are the lots in question through here. There is a utility
easement for sanitary sewer that runs through the rear of those yards. In addition there's a utility
and drainage easement that goes up to the southern edge of that area, so when this subdivision
was platted, there was accommodation made for drainage and utility related improvements in
these areas. That's why the city gets these easements is so that we can manage water in these
areas. That being said, there is a public right to ponding or utilities within those area. That
doesn't minimize the fact that it really is in the presence of the city, and especially when we do
city projects, again this is not a city project, to work closely with the property owners so they
know what to expect on their property because even though we do have the easement, there are
property rights that are not conveyed with that easement. So that's the additional information
that we can provide you.
12
Planning Commission Meeting - March 21, 2006
Sacchet: Can you point out on this plat where actually the pond is going to be. Where the
current one is and how it expands. Just approximately. I think that'd be interesting for us. Also
for the residents here. Over on the right edge.
Haak: It's right in, the existing pond is right in here. The proposed pond is down through here.
Sacchet: Okay.
McDonald: So the pond really doesn't expand that much to the north. The expansion and
everything is more to the south.
Haak: That's correct. Actually, it's kind of interesting. As I look at this in more detail, again
this is new to me so you'll have to excuse me here. The edge of the trail is at a certain elevation
and actually the first let's say 20 feet south of the trail will remain the same. There will be
excavation beginning approximately 20 feet from that south edge of the trail. So these lines here
are the proposed contours and actually this is the middle of the existing open water it appears.
So, and again you can't see those on the monitors or on television but here I can see that the
contours that are existing, the deepest part is out here which is basically where that northern
slope would begin being graded. So yes, the extension of the pond would really be south of
where that existing open water is.
Sacchet: Okay. Thank you.
Haak: You're welcome.
Sacchet: So we had a public hearing. We're discussing. Any comments or questions? Do we,
ready for a motion?
Keefe: I'll make a motion. The Planning Commission recommends the City Council approve
Wetland Alteration Permit 06-06 subject to the following conditions 1 through 14. 14 being all
appropriate permissions and easements must be obtained prior to the undertaking of any
construction.
Sacchet: Okay. We have a motion. Is there a second?
McDonald: Second.
Sacchet: Any further comments? Friendly amendments? No?
Keefe moved, McDonald seconded that the Planning Commission recommends that the
City Council approve Wetland Alteration Permit #06-06, subject to the following
conditions:
1. Wetland replacement shall occur in a manner consistent with the Minnesota Wetland
Conservation Act (MR 8420) at a ratio of2:1.
13
Planning Commission Meeting - March 21, 2006
2. The applicant shall notify nearby property owners of the proposed project at least two
weeks prior to beginning work. The notice shall, at a minimum, provide a summary of
the purpose of the project, the timeline for project completion, and contact information
for someone with RPBCWD who is able to provide more information about the project.
It is recommended that the applicant work with the City to identify property owners
receiving notice and to provide a link to a project web site from the City's web site.
3. The applicant shall restore any disturbed areas and restore or replace any damage to
infrastructure on City property.
4. All exposed soils from temporary haul routes, exposed slopes above the normal water
level (NWL) and adjacent areas to the project shall be temporarily stabilized and seeded
within the 7, 14,21 day time frames depending upon slopes. Any concentrated flow
areas shall receive temporary protection within 24 hours of connection to surface waters.
5. Erosion control blanket shall be used in concentrated flow area and for slopes of 3 : 1. All
remaining areas shall be mulched and seeded to control erosion.
6. The applicant shall provide information regarding the fate of the excavated/excess
material, as well as the stabilization and/or containment of the material.
7. Temporary energy dissipation shall be installed at existing flared end sections to the
bottom of the basin at the end of each day to protect against erosion. This could include
temporary plastic sheeting or geotextile fabric secured to the soil.
8. All existing outlets/proposed outlet structures shall be temporary riser structures until the
ponds and adjacent areas are stable.
9. Street sweeping and scraping shall be needed daily (potentially more often) during active
haul times. A dedicated site pickup sweeper may be needed.
10. The applicant shall provide details as to how dewatering will be accomplished for the
basins in this project.
11. The applicant shall have a flocculent available on the project to facilitate sediment
removal from sediment laden water.
12. Energy dissipation shall be provided at all discharge points from dewatering pumps.
Waters receiving dewatering discharges should be large enough to handle the volume and
velocity of the water.
13. The applicant shall apply for and obtain permits from the appropriate regulatory agencies
(e.g. Minnesota Pollution Control Agency (NPDES Phase II Construction Permit),
Minnesota Department of Natural Resources (for dewatering, impacts below the OHW of
Rice Marsh Lake), Minnesota Department of Transportation, and comply with their
conditions of approval.
14
Planning Commission Meeting - March 21, 2006
14. All appropriate permissions and easements must be obtained prior to the
undertaking of any construction.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to O.
PUBLIC HEARING:
LIBERTY AT CREEKSIDE: REQUEST FOR REZONING OF PROPERTY FROM A2
TO PUD-: SUBDIVISION WITH VARIANCES OF APPROXIMA TEL Y 36.01 ACRES
INTO 29 LOTS. 5 OUTLOTS AND RIGHT RIGHT-OF-WAY: SITE PLAN APPROVAL
FOR 146 TOWNHOUSES: AND CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR ALTERATIONS
WITHIN THE FLOOD PLAIN AND DEVELOPMENT WITHIN THE BLUFF CREEK
OVERLAY DISTRICT. THE PROPERTY IS LOCATED EAST OF AUDUBON ROAD.
NORTH OF PIONEER TRAIL AND NORTHWEST OF FUTURE HIGHWAY 312 (1500
PIONEER TRAIL). PLANNING CASE NO. 05-24. TOWN & COUNTRY HOMES.
Public Present:
Name
Address
Shawn Siders
Kevin Clark
Chris Moehrl
Jeff Fox
Bruce Jeurissen
Nancy Worm
Jim Benshoof
Rick Dorsey
Town and Country Homes
Town and Country Homes
Westwood Professional Services
5270 Howards Point Road
Belle Plain
Belle Plain
Wenck Associates
1551 Lyman Boulevard
Kate Aanenson reviewed the findings of the AUAR.
McDonald: You mentioned about diversity and the way we're building all of this and one of the
things that I guess we've had this discussion before but these things keep kind of coming at us
piecemeal and then it's difficult to put them into the context of the overall plan. At one time that
area down there, we were looking at more commercial development for tax purposes, and what
I'm seeing now by looking at this, this is becoming pretty much residential and how does that
impact you know our comprehensive plan and what we're looking for.
Aanenson: Good question. This property over here would like to go more commercial.
Probably do new urbanism, mixed use project. And this piece over here is still guided industrial.
So this piece would switch, it's guided low or medium, so they're contemplating a switch to a
different land use.
McDonald: As far as the overall stock then of what we have available for development, you feel
that we're still okay as far as what we set aside for commercial? The possibility here for
commercial development.
15