1982 03 25
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MINUTES OF THE REGULAR CHANHASSEN
PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING
HELD MARCH 25, 1982 AT 7:30 P.M.
CHANHASSEN COUNCIL CHAMBERS
APPROVED ON </ - f - f5.--r
........ J'~
Members Present: Chairman Art Partridge, Ladd Conrad, Carol Watson,
Bill Swearengin and Mike Thompson
Members Absent: Howard Noziska and J. Thompson
Staff Present: Bob Waibel, Scott Martin, and Becky Foreman
The meeting was called to order by Chairman Partridge at 7:40 p.m.
United Mailing, Inc. Block 2, Park II, Final Development Plan Amendment
Request, Park Two, Public Hearing and, Site Plan Reveiw, 192,000 Square
Foot Office/Production and Warehouse Facility:
Present: Frank Beddor, 910 Pleasant View Road
Daryl Fortier, 330 2nd Avenue South, Minneapolis
Partridge called the Public Hearing to order at 7:40 p.m.
Waibel explained that the applicant is requesting to construct a 192,000
square foot office/manufacturing facili~y on one platted lot. Waibel
further explained that Block 2 of Park II was originally planned to have
4 lots, the applicant is now requesting to make the 4 lots into one
lot. The staff recommends approval of this concept.
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Waibel stated that the first phase of United Mailing facility will be
167,000 square feet of office production and warehouse area, with 227
parking spaces for the first phase. The second phase expansion will
either be the extension of the building to the east as shown on the site
plan or the extension of the mezzanine over the production area.
Waibel presented the staff recommendations to the Planning Commission.
He stated that the staff would like to see the two accesses in the center
of Block Two be combined and intersect Park Road at 90 degrees; and that
before a building permit is issued for the second phase construction
a site plan showing the number of parking spaces to be provided be reviewed
by staff in order to verify conformance with the City Zoning Ordinance.
He also pointed out that the applicant should apply to the DNR and
Watershed District for the appropriate permits. Alhso,i that all
roof-top mechanical equipment be screened and that all parking and
maneuvering areas be lined with concrete curb.
Waibel pointed out that the City Engineer agrees with the staff
recommendations regarding the access onto Park Road. The City Engineer
is also working with the developer's engineers and the Watershed
representatives to develop a plan that requires on site retention to
allow particle settlement prior to discharge of storm water in the
creek. Waibel stated that the final drainage plan will probably not
~ look like it is shown on the site plan now.
Planning Commission Minutes
March 25, 1982
Page 2
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Waibel explained that the applicant will need to file a hazardous and
toxic substances inventory with the Carver County Zoning Office.
Conrad asked why lighting was not mentioned in the recommendations
from the staff. Waibel stated that the site plan has the shielded high
pressure sodium lighting shown on it already and did not seem necessary
to put it into the recommendations. Waibel stated that there is a problem
with the on-wall lighting, because it sometimes is not shielded low
enough to cut the glare. Watson asked if the building lights could be
different than the high pressure sodium, and asked if Waibel could
check into this.
Daryl ~ortier, the appli9ant's architect, stated that the lighting
p~an wlll be changed some before the final plan is finished, but they
~ll~ still use the hig~ pressure sodium lighting. . Beddor, the applicant,
lndlcated that there wlll be 3 shifts working at United Mailing, so the
lights have to be on all the time. Waibel stated that the area needs
to be well lit for insurance reasons and also security reasons.
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Beddor stated that he feels his architects have done a fine job in
utilizing the wetland area on the property. The property has a gradual
slope rising to the southern part of the property. The overall soil
development qualities are good with the exception of a vein of poorly
drained soils in the east central portion of the property and the flood
areas in the northwest ~ of the property. The parking is planned
for the west side of the lot and there will be bridge going over the
creek to the building. Beddor indicated that he hopes to have this
building open the same time as Instant Web, Inc.
Waibel stated that in a letter from Minnegasco, they indicated that
their lines should be coming in from the east. The City Engineer
and the Watershed District are working together with the DNR regarding
the pedestrian bridge. The DNR has indicated that possibly the applicant
will have to apply for a permit for the bridge.
Watson asked if there will be any toxic substances produced at United
Mailing. Beddor indicated no.
Watson made a motion, seconded by Partridge, to close the public
hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Swearengin made a motion, seconded by Conrad, to refer this item
to the City Council without any further discussion. All voted in
favor and the motion carried.
Gray-Wickenheiser Estates, Subdivision Variance Request, Lot 1, Block 1,
Public Hearing:
Present: Chuck Freiberg, 2121 Vincent Aven. North, Minneapolis
Carl Novak, 5113 West 98th, Bloomington
Partick Hanily, 2660 Orchard Lane, Excelsior
James o. Irving, 2670 Orchard Lane, Excelsior
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Planning Commission Minutes
March 25, 1982
Page 3
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Waibel stated that the applicant requested to fill in the low area of
Lot 1, Block 1 of Gray-Wickenheiser Estates. The City Council, when
this area was platted, requested that the staff be alerted to anyone
coming in for a fill permit for that particular low area. The staff
thought that this should be processed as a variance to the subdivision
conditions that the City Council placed on it. The referral agency
review only resulted in a letter from the Watershed District telling
the applicants that they may need to receive a permit for the filling
of this low area. That will be the responsibility of the applicant.
They are proposing to remove fill from the hill and move to the center
of the lot. They want to do this to achieve a better access to the
home they want to build on the hill.
The applicant wants to make some alterations on the outlet that goes
into the pond on the western side. This is essentially an Engineering
matter. Monk, the City Engineer, stated in his report, that it is
apparent that the developer is aware of the drainage situation and is
attempting to accommodate the drainage from his own lot as well as the
tributary areas towards the ponding area to the northwest. He finds
that the proposed grading plan is acceptable and recommends approval
to allow development of this lot as originally intentioned.
Waibel stated that the soil maps for this area do not show peat deposits
here, indicating that this, in all likelihood has developed as this
area urbanized.
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Swearengin stated that one of the problems with the
City, is that they are trying to allow filling where it shouldn't be.
There are problems in filling lots, maybe this shouldn't be done.
Partridge indicated that this is not going to be a significant amount
of filling. He asked if the filling is going to move more water onto
the adjacent properties. Waibel stated no. Freiberg, the applicant,
stated that the intent is to build a house into the hill. The intent
to fill is not to build on it, but to get the water to take a more
rapid flow back to the existing pond. The idea is so that it is no longer
swamp and so they can have a nice lawn. There is about a 35' drop
in the hill, the fill is for a better driveway also. The applicant
has two children and a dog and does not want a swamp on his lawn.
The house isn't going to be built for about a year.
Waibel stated that in 1976 when this area was platted, this lot was
found to be a buildable lot, it was also assessed a full unit.
The plan does not show where the house is going to be, because he did
not want to be tied into a spot when they are not going to be building
for about a year or more. The filling will be done this year, so that they
will have a year to see if it is going to work.
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Planning Commission Minutes
March 25, 1982
Page 4
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Swearengin stated that he is against filling the lot, he stated that
there is plenty of building area on the rest of the lot, and an access
can still be obtained.
Partridge indicated that this will not be changing the lot that much.
He is just changing the retention of the swamp.
The Engineer indicates that this is such a shallow ditch, that it does
not have that significant of an impact. It does not show on the Wetlands
Inventory Map as being a designated wetlands area. Swearengin stated
that he would like to look at this lot first.
Pat Hanley, 2660 Orchard Lane, stated that he owns Lot 3. At the time
of platting, he could fill his lot, but Lot 1 could not be filled.
Since then, he has put a holding pond on his lot. The people in the
neighborhood would rather see that land developed than to just leave it
unused. Hanley's pond would suffice for a filtration system. He stated
further that what ever happens to the lot doesn't matter that much,
as long as the flow is continued and no blockage occurs. Lot 1 has
become sort of an eye-sore because people have been dumping junk on
it.
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Swearengin asked the applicant if he would consider a holding pond.
Freiberg stated tht he does not want a deeper hole; he just wants to
channel the water so that it can flow faster. The applicants intent
is to preserve the natural outlet, the only reason that the water sits
on his lot is because the release has become, silted. The natural flow
of the water comes down the street, across the neighbors lawn and goes
into the pond. The applicant stated that he will let it still do that;
he just wants to channel it so that it flows faster.
Tom Thomas is the owner, he has signed the application and is aware
of this request.
Swearengin indicated that he feels the applciant didn't need to come to
the Planning Commission for a variance. Waibel stated that any fill
more than 150 cubic yards needs a permit from the City Council. Martin
explained that this wouldn't need a permit except for the previous City
Council decision made in 1976 to not have this lot filled.
Watson made a motion, seconded by Conrad, to close the public hearing.
All voted in favor and the motion was carried.
M. Thompson stated that he feels this will be an addition to the neighbor-
hood, it is not creating any problems, there is an assessment on this
property, and obviously the City Council felt that this was a buildable
piece of property at the time of platting.
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Planning Commission Minutes
March 25, 1982
Page 5
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Swearengin stated that this never should have been brought before the
Planning Commission; he doesn't think there is a problem with this lot.
He stated this is a buildable lot, it is not a wetland, the fact that the
Council in 1976 made some comment isn't relavent now. Swearengin told
the applicant, as far as he was concerned, he should go ahead and build
on it, as long as you don't alter the drainage, and as long as you still
allow the drainage to flow through, you are allowed to slop dirt
over your land where ever you want. He also pointed out the applicant
could do what he wants as long as he doesn't move more than 150 cubic
yards of dirt.
Swearengin made a motion to recommend to the City Council to accept the
grading plan and recommend approval to allow development of the lot.
Motion died because of lack of a second.
Conrad stated that this motion is not dealing with the requested action.
The request was for a variance to the condition of plat approval that
the property remain in its natural state so that site gradi~g and filling
improvements can be made.
Swearengin indicated that he does not intend to make his motion to grant
a variance.
Waibel stated that the City Engineer has looked at this property and
has found no problem with the drainage and the ponding in the area.
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Swearengin stated that this is not a wetlands, and it is not going to
alter the drainage. He asked why doesn't the applicant just go ahead
and do what he wants; why does he need a variance and technical reports.
Conrad made a motion, seconded by Partridge, to recommend to the City
Council to approve a variance to the condition of plat approval stating
that the property remain in its natural state so that site grading and
filling may take place as suggested by Bill Monk, the City Engineer.
The following voted in favor: Watson, Partridge, Conrad, and M.
Thompson. Swearengin voted nay.
Swearengin stated that he voted nay because this request was not
necessary, it is not a wetland, and there can be less than 150
yards moved without a variance.
Partridge indicated that there was no opposition from the
neighborhood.
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Planning Commission Minutes
March 25, 1982
Page 6
e Sign Permit Variance Request, ABC Millwork, 18800 West 78th Street:
No one was present representing the applicant or adjacent property
owners.
Martin presented the variance request and explained that the subject
sign was erected in August, 1981 without a permit.
He pointed out that the request involves variances to the following
sign ordinance provisions: 1) The sign does not meet the sign ordinances
technical definition of a "directional sign", in that it does not
direct vehicular and pedestrian traffic to "public facilities or
functions", 2) the sign display area contains 10 square feet, while
the ordinance limits directional signs to 4 square feet in area
per side; and, 3) the sign is located a distance of six (6) feet from
the street property line, while the ordinance requires a minimum
setback of 25 feet from the public right-of-way.
Martin added that the sign does serve the purpose of directing vehicular
traffic in the vicinity of the ABC Millwork complex, and would therefore
be commonly called a "directional sign", rather than a business or
advertising sign.
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He recommended that the sign ordinance be amended to specifically
allow small directional signs (such as that requested by the
applicant) for all commercial and industrial sites. He suggested
that one such sign be permitted for each access drive, with a
minimum setback of 10 feet from all property lines and a maximum
sign display area of 10 square feet.
Martin pointed out that a similar request by McDonald's Restaurant
for "entrance" and "exit" direc~ional signs would be presented to
the Commission at their next meeting.
Conrad stated that the property looks cluttered with the directional
sign and the business signs mounted on the retaining wall and
located on the other side of the main access drive. He added that
he sees the value of directional signs on private property for
public safety reasons, but that he's unsure of what specific
criteria should be established for directional signs. Watson
asked if the sign could be moved back to the retaining wall.
Martin indicated that the sign must be clearly visible to truckers
who make deliveries and pick-ups on the site.
M. Thompson stated that he is against granting this variance request
since it doesn't meet the sign ordinance standards and would be a
precedent for future similar requests.
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Swearengin stated that he would like to see the variance granted.
Martin suggested that the variance could be granted with a time
limit, and pointed out that the Americ-Inn Motel was granted a
permit with a time limit of 18 months for the sign located closest
to Highway 5.
Planning Commission Minutes
March 25, 1982
Page 7
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M. Thompson stated that this is not a directional sign according
to the ordinance, and that even if it were, a directional sign
can only be 4 square feet in area and has to be set back 25 feet
from the street right of way. Martin suggested that a variance
be granted and that an amendment to the definition of directional
sign in the sign ordinance be approved by dropping the phrase about
"Public Facilities or Functions."
M. Thompson asked what signs are permitted for a private enterprise
according to the sign ordinance. Martin answered that business
identification signs are permitted subject to certain size and
locational requirements. Martin explained that McDonald's signs
for "entrance and "exit" will require a variance if the ordinance
is left the way it is.
M. Thompson indicated that the Commission still have to deal with the
size of the sign, since this sign is 10 square feet, and the ordinance
allows only part of the staff's recommendation for amendment to
the sign ordinance. He added that the minimum setback should also
be changed to 10 feet from all property lines.
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M. Thompson stated that the Commission shouldn't amend the sign
ordinance in response to one particular situation, without taking
into consideration all the ramifications that may come down the line.
He felt that it would be best to deny the request and then later
review the ordinance in a comprehensive manner in the future.
Swearengin stated that he does not like to amend an ordinance
that we know is going to be scraped later, hut would rather approve
variances with a specific time limit.
Swearengin made a made a motion to approve the variance with a 2-year
time limit on it. The motion died due to the lack of a second.
Conrad made a motion to deny the variance request. Second was made
by M. Thompson. The following voted in favor: Watson, M. Thompson,
Conrad. Partridge and Swearengin voted nay. Motion carried.
Partridge and Swearengin stated that denial of the variance request
is a mistake, that will be costly to the company and will cause a
problem for those delivering to ABC Millwork.
Conrad made a motion seconded by Partridge, to recommend to the
City Council an amendment to Ordinance #36, Section 2f by deleting
the words "to public facilities or functions". The following voted
in favor: Conrad, Watson, partridge, Swearengin. M. Thompson
voted nay. Motion carried.
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M. Thompson stated that he feels that the Planning Commission
should not change the sign ordinance on a piece-meal basis, but
rather an overall review should be made of the ordinance.
Planning Commission Minutes
March 25, 1982
Page 8
~ Adopt Revised Planning Commission Bylaws:
Watson made a motion, seconded by Conrad, adopting the Revised Planning
Commission Bylaws as presented. (dated March 19, 1982).
All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Discussion, Agriculture Preserves Zoning:
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Martin explained that the Planning Commission , on February 25,
recommended the certification of lands lying outside the Metro
MUSA line as eligible for participation under the 1980 Metropolitan
Agricultural Preserves Act. However, in an opinion presented to
the City Council on March 1, the City Attorney advised the Council
of the need to create a new agricultural preserve zoning district
within the Zoning Ordinance that specifically addresses the Ag
Preserves Act and goes further than Ordinance 45 currently does
in providing for development controls in Agricultural areas.
The City Council accepted the Attorneys recommendation of March 1st
and referred the issue of Agricultural Preservation zoning to the
Planning Commission for immediate consideration and preparation of
an ordinance amendment consistent with the requirements of the Act.
Martin recommended that the Planning Commission discuss the maximum
residential denisty for land in unsewered agricultural areas.
He added that the Act provides that Ag Preserve densities cannot
exceed one non-farm residence per quarter-quarter section of land
(40 acres). Anything less than 40 acres, by definition, is non-
farm.
Martin explained that one farm has already been certified by the City
for participation under the Ag Preserves Act. This farm is just
south of Lyman Boulevard, in the vicinity of the Sanitary Landfill
site. He added that it is highly unlikely that the Metro Council
or the County Auditor will challenge the certification of eligible
&ands based on inadequate agricultural zoning provisions.
Partridge agreed with the staff position that Ordinance 45 sufficiently
meets the zoning requirements of the Ag Preserves Act. He was I)
concerned that the City Council sent this issue to the Commission
just because Russ Larson drafted a letter which any other lawyer might
disagree with. He added that by asking the Commission to develop
a new zoning( 'category, the Council is denying the Commission the
opportunity to fully study revisions to Ordinance 45. He felt that
there are too many questions to answer in one night. Partridge felt
that the action the Planning Commission took on February 25th certifying
eligible lands for Ag Preserve designation should be enough until
we can take a better look at Ordinance 45, especially since the 1982
certification deadline of March 1st is past and the only application
received thus far has been certified to the Councy and Metro Council.
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Planning Commission Minutes
March 25, 1982
Page 9
Conrad asked what harm there would be if the Planning
Commission would develop a pew zoping . .
category at this time, as dlrected by the Council. Martin pointed
out that Commission review of Ordinance 45 was scheduled for later
this year in the Adoped Planning Commission Work Program. He expressed
concern that work priorities would not be completed if other issues
were addressed simultaniously. Conrad asked how much work is involved
and whether Ordinance 45 should be a higher priority.
Martin stated that the Ag Preserves Act attempts to protect the farmer
long-term interests, since what happens around their property influences
the survival of farms. If they are right next to a developing sub-
division and they have a feed lot, the feedlot is going to go next,
and the farm may be out of business. Martin pointed out the fact that
numberous issues are involved in providing adequate protection for
agricultural operations, so study of these issues are likely to involve
a substantial time committment from the Commission.
Partridge summarized by stating that the City has the threat of a
dumpsite being located in our City and the property owner wlishes to
continue farming. In order for the City to stall this dumpsite, the
property owner and the City filed for an Agricultural Preserve status
for his property, which might help in preventing a dump site.
Although the City Attorney on March 1, at the City Council meeting,
disagreed with the staff's recommendation, Partridge believes that
our ability to file and claim agricultural preserve status for the
property is adequately protected by Ordinance 45. Although the City
Council directed the Commission to revise our zoning code, the adoption
of such an ordinance mayor may not help the progress of the Ag
Preserves application. He felt that there is no reason to believe
that the application cannot be processed on the basis of the information
already submitted to the County and Metro Council. According to
the adopted work schedule, the Commission will need about 6 months
of study for this issue.
Conrad stated that the Planning Commission would rather not work on
Ordinance 45 right now and that the Commission feelings should be passed
on to the City Council. The Commission feels comfortable with what
we have in terms of unsewered area regulations for now, and any
work on Ag Preserves zoning now would alter the Commission work schedule
to the detriment of higher priority work elements.
Partridge noted that the City Council minutes of March 1 indicate
that Clark Horn made a motion to direct staff to prepare a proposed
amendment to the zoning ordinance, if necessary. He felt that the
Commission should advise the City Council that the processing of the
application mentioned in this motion is adequately protected by
Ordinance 45 development restrictions, and that changing the zoning
code would be a hasty and foolish thing to do at this time. If
necessary, he added, the City should get another attorney's opinion.
Swearengin made a motion to recommend that the City Council adopt
the model ordinance from Metro Council in order to satisfy the Attorney's
concern over agricultural Preserves Zoning. Motion died due to the
lack of a second.
Planning Commission Minutes
March 25, 1982
Page 10
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Partridge stated that if that ordinance was adopted we would be
prohibiting any development or building in the city other than within
the Metro MUSA line, at least until such time that the ordinance
were revised or repealed in the future.
Partridge stated that Ordinance 45 has more restrictive requirements
than' called for under the Ag Preserves Act, and that we don't need
to rush out and amend our ordinance at this time.
Conrad stated that the Planning Commission should direct Martin to
go to the City Council and tell them that this issue is more complex
and involved than they might imagine, and if the City Council still
thinks that the Ordinance should be amended immediately, the Commission
will be willing to adjust their work program accordingly.
Partridge stated that he would write a letter to the Mayor concerning
the Commiss~on's position on this issue.
Watson stated that Ordinance 45 is the next item on the Commission
Work schedule, so in about 1 month the commission should be able to
get to it.
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Conrad made a motion, seconded by Swearengin, to add the Ag Preserves
zoning issue into the Planning Commission Work Schedule, which provides
for the revision of Ordinance #45 by December 1982. All voted in
favor and the motion carried.
Planning Commission Work Program Priorities:
M. Thompson stated that if the City Council gives the Commission specific
assignments in addition to work elements included in the work program,
the Commission should do them. The areas that the Commission is
bogged down in are not because of the Planning Commission.
Martin said that the last 2 Planning Commission agendas have not
provided enough time to discuss Commercial and Industrial Ordinance
Revision, so this work element is running behind schedule. Martin
suggested that the planning Commission either compact their agenda
and limit their discussion of routine items, or set special meting
dates to address ordinance revisions.
Conrad asked who determines the make-up of the agenda. He suggested
that staff allocate 1 hour each meeting for discussion of work program
elements. Martin explained that development application must be processed
as expeditiously as possible since applicants deserve a timely review of
their applications. He added that staff establishes each agenda
based on the number and type of pending applications, and on specific
referrals from the City Councilor directions from the Commission.
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Swearengin stated that it is a waste of time when things get bounced
back and forth between the Planning Commission and City Council.
For example, the Bylaws have been before the Commission on 3 d~fferent
occasions.
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Planning Commission Minutes
March 25, 1982
Page 11
Partridge stated that if the City Council has a problem with one of
the items that they send back to the Planning Commission, then one
of the Council members should come to the Planning Commission meeting
and explain their problem.
Partridge stated that he would like to set up a special meeting for
next week with the new Environmental Protection Comittee. Martin
explained that the City Council has not approved the Committee ii'
appointments as yet, so suchameeting would be premature.
Minutes
M. Thompson made a motion to approve the March II, 1982 Planning
Commission minutes as presented. Seconded by Conrad. The following
voted in favor: Watson, M. Thompson, Conrad. Swearengin stated nay.
Partridge abstained.
M. Thompson made a motion to adopt a Planning Commission resolution in
support of the Planning Staff, in that the Commission is thoroughly
satisfied with the job that the staff is doing for the Commission.
Seconded by Partridge. All voted in favor and the motion carried.
Partridge added that staff reports are much improved over the last
year, and that good reports make the Commission's job much easier.
The Commission expressed concerns that City Council minutes are not
available to the Commission in a timely manner, and noted that the
most recent Council minutes received by the Commission are those of
January 18, 1982. Martin said that steps are presently underway to
correct this situation through the realignment of clerical staff functions.
Meeting was adjourned at 11:30 p.m.