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1989 03 01 CHANHASSEN PLANNING COMMISSION >.~EGULAR MEETING , _1ARCH 1, 1989 Chairman Conrad called the meeting to order at 7:35 p.m.. MEMBERS PRESENT: Tim Erhart, Steve Emmings, Annette ElIson, Ladd Conrad and Jim Wildermuth Brian Batzli arrived during the Eckankar public hearing and did not vote on the first two issues. MEMBERS ABSENT: David Headla STAFF PRESENT: Steve Hanson, Planning Director and Dave Grannis, City Attorney PUBLIC HEARING: SUBDIVISION OF 22.8 ACRES INTO TWO LOTS OF 1.9 AND 20.9 ACRES ON PROPERTY ZONED RR, RURAL RESIDENTIAL AND LOCATED ON CHES MAR DRIVE (GROSS PROPERTY) CHES MAR FARMS REALTY. Hanson: This particular item, the applicant had talked to me prior to the meeting and I believe would like to address the Commission rather than going through the staff report. Actually I believe they would like to _table the item. Tim Keane: My name is Tim Keane with Larkin, Hoffman, Daly and Lindgren, 7900 Xerxes, Bloomington. I'm here on behalf of Ches Mar Realty. We appeared here previously in the matter of Ches Mar Farm subdivision. We have a couple of outstanding issues between buyer and seller. Hopefully we will have them resolved to everyone's satisfaction and would respectfully request that this matter be continued to your next meeting. Conrad: do we? Steve, in that case we don't need to open up the public hearing Any questions of the applicant? Dave Grannis: I think if the public hearing is scheduled for tonight and has been published notice of the hearing, I think you should open the hearing and then continue the hearing until your next meeting. That would be my recommendation. Conrad: Okay, we will open the public hearing. Are there any other comments? Emmings moved, Wildermuth seconded to continue the public hearing on the Subdivision of Ches Mar Farms Realty until the next meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was tabled until the next regular Planning Commission meeting. - L ^ ~u _~ Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 2 ~"e PUBLIC HEARING: CONDITIONAL USE PERMIT FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF A CHURCH ON PROPERTY ZONED R-4, MIXED LOW DENSITY AND LOCATED 1/4 MILE NORTH OF HWY 5 AND WEST OF POWERS BOULEVARD, ECKANKAR CHURCH, PETER BECK. Public Present Name Address Mitch & Janet Weaver Dave & Leneda Rahe Gail Kurtz Fred Koppelman Tim Bollig Barbara Coldagelli Kathleen Wendland Jeanne Burke Paula Whittiar Carol Nelson Greg & Sheryl Thornberg David Pedersen Matt & Laurie Hoffman Signe Karschnik e Jim Pasek Marion Ziegler Susan Johnsrud Bob Cunningham John Horsayer Madeline Hickey Glenn & Bonnie Hageman Dan & Marilyn Mahady Roger Downing Lee Valle Rev. Dan Peterson Tim & Carol Vadnais Todd Casey Bobbie Krespard Ross Kamed Dave & Diane Quackenbush Carol Barrett Dawn Opitz Julia pims Carol Watson Ken Groen Alan R. Johnson Bill Boyt Hans Skalle Gordon J. Nagel ~ Jim Eastl ing .., Jean Way Robert & Marjorie Anderson Kenneth Horns Alan Leirness Bloomington, MN 1021 Carver Beach Road Chanhassen Eden pra i r ie Chanhassen Chanhassen Chanhassen Chanhassen Chanhassen Chanhassen Bloomi ng ton Chanhassen villager Chanhassen Chanhassen Hopkins Chanhassen Chanhassen Chanhassen Chanhassen Chanhassen Chanhassen Minnetonka Chanhassen Chanhassen Chanhassen Victoria Victoria Chanhassen Chanhassen Chanhassen Chanhassen Chanhassen Chanhassen 7131 Utica Lane 7329 Frontier Trail 1044 Pontiac Lane 7204 Kiowa Circle 8071 Santa Vera Drive 514 Del Rio Drive 7285 Pontiac Circle 7126 Utica Lane 7090 Tecumseh Lane 111 Third Avenue So., Minneapolis 608 2nd Ave. So., Minneapolis Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 3 e Name Address Jeff & Julia Farmakes Aleta Lownsbury Janice Duininck Mavis Eiler Dawne Erhart Bill & Kathy Engebretson Pat Albrecht Jim & Judy Landkammer Janet Lash Barbara Klick Greg Blaufuss Dan Lutenegger Charles Rickart John Shardlow Jim Larkin Peter Sussman Barry Warner Ronald Krank Tom Barrett Tim Keane 7100 utica Lane 8000 Dakota Avenue 8000 Dakota Avenue 7000 Shawnee 775 West 96th Street 7120 utica Lane 6951 Tecumseh Lane 6901 utica Lane 6850 utica Lane 7116 utica Lane 7116 utica lane III Third Ave So., Minneapolis III Third Ave So., Minneapolis DSV Inc., 300 1st Ave No., Minneapolis 6671 Minnewashta Parkway 300 1st Ave No., Minneapolis III Third Ave So., Minneapolis KKE Architects, 300 1st Ave So., Mpls. 7051 Redman Lane 7900 Xerxes Ave So., Bloomington -Steve Hanson presented the staff report. public hearing to order. Chairman Conrad called the Rober Hoffman: Mr. Chairman and members of the Planning Commission, Robert Hoffman, 1500 Northwestern Financial Center. I'm an attorney with the firm of Larkin, Hoffman, Daly and Lindgren and we represent the applicant, Eckankar in it's application for a conditional use permit as a church. We do have a substantial amount of material to present to you and we will present to you the drawings and sight lines and a number of other matters to assist you in making your decision. Two lawyers in our firm have been working with me on this matter and I'd like to introduce them. Mr. Peter Beck who is over here and Mr. Jim Larkin who is sitting over in this area. Very briefly, our firm has had the opportunity to spend a considerable amount of time on land use matters in this metropolitan area over the last 25 years primarily representing people who want to develop land. Through that experience we've become reasonably familiar with the requirements of the cities in the metropolitan area as to either zoning or conditional uses and advise our clients to comply with those conditions as set up by the various communities. We've had experience that range from residential to stadiums in downtowns to megamalls to restaurants and to industrial buildings and to churches. Most members of our firm have experience in the City of Chanhassen. Two or three developments that we worked on, the CPT development, the McDonalds restaurant, Fox Chase and _ some others. I ind icate tha t to you so tha t you have a background as to ~how we approach the land use matter. It is also combined with some experience from the public sector. For example, I had the opportunity to spend 14 years on the Bloomington City Council and 7 years on the Metropolitan Council and had the opportunity to chair the Physical ~- Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 4 e Development Committee which produced the development framework under which all the comprehensive plans in all the cities are governed. That may be good or bad, depending on how you look at it. Working on this project with us have been a number of consultants and professionals who I'd like to also introduce at this time. First is Mr. Ron Krank who is an architect and is a co-founder of the firm of Korsunsky, Krank and Erickson and has been practicing architecture for the last 26 years. Has been involved in over 1,000 buildings throughout the country. Also has experience in Chanhassen and his firm has worked on the Press, Instant Webb, Redman Products and several others. They've also had extensive work on churches. They've been in charge of the 10 year plan for Mount Olivet Church and he was the lay leader of the Temple of Israel's 4 million dollar addition recently. Assisting him has been Mr. Peter Sussman who is also here. Mr. Dan Lutenegger who is a principle with the firm of Barton- Aschman has had 14 years experience in environmental analysis and related matters and has been involved in the voluntary EAW that we have submitted to the City. Mr. Charles Rickart who is back there is also with the firm of Barton-Aschman and has a Bachelors degree in Transportation as a transportation engineer and prepared the traffic analysis that has been submitted to the City. Mr. Barry Warner is also with the firm of Barton- Aschman. Has a Bachelor degree in landscaping. Is a Landscape Architect. Has 12 years with that background and has produced the landscape plan for the church. Mr. Ken Horns is also with the firm of Barton-Aschman and has ea civil engineering degree from the University of Minnesota and has been practicing civil engineering for 8 years and assisted us in the erosion control, sanitary sewer systems and utilities part of the plan. Mr. Ken Horns is also with the firm of Barton-Aschman and has also been assisting us in the development process. The consultants that I've just reviewed with you helped us prepare the voluntary Environmental Assessment Worksheet which was submitted to the City and addresses all of the environmental matters that would be involved in a development of this type. In addition to those professionals, we have submitted to the City the opinions of two other professionals who I'd like to introduce at this time. One is Mr. John Shardlow. Mr. Shard low has a business degree in landscape architecture He specializes in urban design. He's a principle in the firm of Dalgren, Shardlow and Urban. Has been a planning consultant in many cities in this particular area including several surrounding cities and has also had the opportunity to work in the city of Chanhassen. He has rendered an opinion which we have filed with the city of record as to the use of this property and it's impact under your ordinances from the viewpoint of a professional planner. Land planner. Finally Mr. Alan Leirness who is the Vice President of Robert Boblin and Associates and is a professional appraiser and has appraised real estate in the city of Chanhassen for over the last 8 years. He has submitted to the city his observations as a professional planner as to the lack of a detrimental impact of this particular development on surrounding properties. What we will present to you this evening is a summary of the material that we presented in our application which is a part of the a record of the city. The statements of the professionals I've introduced .. have been submitted to the city and are also a part of that particular record. We will review with you the background of Eckankar in acquiring this piece of property. We will review with you the physical plans for the church and you've already heard the staff's report which is part of Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 5 - the record and we will not comment on that. All of the professionals then will be available for questions that you wish to raise. The following have been submitted to the City and we want to note them as part of this record for your consideration and I believe you should have had the opportunity to have received copies of these but in the event you haven't, I wanted to just identify them. The first is our letter to the City of January 29, 1989 which accompanied the conditional use application. Second is our application itself. The conditional use permit. Third is the certification of Peter Skelskey to Ministerial Credtials on file in Hennepin County to perform marriages. Fourth is the requirements for a , conditional use in the city and our compliance with each one of your standards and criteria. Next is a copy of the title for the Eckankar property showing the church holding the title to the property as owner. ~ Next is a voluntary Environmental Assessment Worksheet prepared to assist you in evaluating public utilities, drainage, transportation and environmental matters and other items related to that. Next we've submitted you a complete set of plans on an 8 1/2 x 11 format which is required by your ordinance. We've also submitted a photocopy of 2 or 3 pages from a publication used in universities entitled Religious and Spirtual Groups in Modern America which is the 2nd Edition of that publication. Originally published in 1973 and republished in 1988. The material we've furnished you with is from the 1988 publication. We've . also submitted you information that Eckankar is a tax exempt religious tit organi za tion under Section 501 (C) (3) of the Federal Internal Revenue Code. We've also submitted to you evidence that Eckankar is a church under Section 170BIAi of the Federal Internal Revenue Code and under Section , 1.5ll-2A3ii of the Income Tax Regulations. We also submitted to you evidence that Eckankar Priests are authorized under the laws of the State of Minnesote to solemnize marriages. Eckankar has over 290 centers throughout the world. It currently has members in 92 countries internationally. It has had a local center in the Twin Cities since 1973 and was first located in St. Paul and now in the last 14 years has been located in the city of Minneapolis. In 1985 Eckankar purchased the subject property which is at the intersection of TH 5 and CR 17 for the purpose of relocating it's international headquarters from Menlo Park, California and establishing an adminstrative campus in the city of Chanhassen. That proposal was made pursuant to the then designated plans by the city for that piece of property as what's known as a business campus. That designation had been placed on that piece of property at the suggestion of a prior owner or contract purchaser. That concept plan which was submitted in 1985 included an adminstrative office building, design, graphic, audio visual and publishing facilities and that concept plan was approved by the Planning Commission of this City and the City Council in 1985. Eckankar subsequently withdrew that request for that use on that particular property and located it's international headquarters in the city of New Hope, Minnesota where it has had it's headquarters since that time. Chanhassen rezoned the Eckankar property from planned residential development to RSF, R-4 and R-12. However, your comprehensive a plan still carries the designation of campus business land use for that ~particular piece of property although it's our understanding that it's been the intent of the City to change that comprehensive plan use to residential also to be consistent with your zoning. Churches are conditional uses under your ordinance in a residential zone. Churches are Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 6 e also allowed in campus business category of your ordinances. In the event there's a conflict between the ordinances of zoning and your comprehensive plan, Minnesota Statutes provides that zoning controls. The church itself will be a building concentrated to religious worship. People will join together in public worship under the direction of a person authorized by the laws of the state of Minnesota to solemnize marriages. The church will have a 800 seat sanctuary, a caretakers residence, classroom facilities and other areas detailed on the plans as submitted. All as permitted by your zoning ordinance. Office space will be provided only for the adminstrative staff to serve the everyday needs of the church. The international headquarters will stay in New Hope, Minnesota. The first visuals that we'd like to show you will be the general location of the church on the property and thereafter some sight lines and viewsheds from various surrounding areas of the property. The church design itself and some characteristics of the church building. The parcel is 174 acre parcel. The church would be located virtually in the center of the parcel. The gross square footage of the building is 48,000 square feet. It's a single level building with a walkout lower level. This is the site which we indicated is 174 acres. The top is the north and to my left is the west. That's Lake Ann. The bottom of the visual is the south and then to the right is the east. That's CR 17 shown in that direction. TH 5, Peter if you'll show them TH 5 and then the entrance to the park. The church you'll see is virtually in the center of the facility and to _the bottom of the church is the parking area. As I indicated, the site is 174 acres. The building will cover 7/10ths of 1 acre or approximately 4/10ths of the site. The amount of impervious coverage will be 5.7 acres or approximtely 3.3% of the site. The parking area, which you see below the church proper is 2.3 acres or approximately 1.3% of the site. There will be approximately 20 church employees during the day. The sanctuary will seat approximately 800 persons in the sanctuary part of the church. The number of parking spaces are 276 which comply with the ordinance of Chanhassen and including handicapped parking spaces, that will be approximately 290. Under the definition of height in your zoning ordinance, the church has a zoning ordinance height of 36 feet. The actual height of the front of the building is appoximately 50 feet and at the walkout level it's approximately 65 feet but your zoning ordinance uses a formula for measuring height based on setback and configuration and according to your zoning ordinance, the height is 36 feet for the purpose of your zoning ordinance. Setbacks from the property and Peter if you'll point these out, from the east is approximately 3 blocks. 3 city blocks. From the west, from the lake is approximately 3 1/2 city blocks over to the park area. To the north it's approximately 6 1/2 city blocks and to the south it's also approximately 6 1/2 city blocks. Access to the property would be off of CR 17 at that location as indicated by Mr. Beck. We have some additional studies now which we will review with you. The first is an overall graphic to show you certain sight lines into the property from surrounding neighborhood areas. Peter if you'll point out the location of the church and we are going to take you through several asight lines starting in the lower left hand corner of the visual which is ~approximately the entrance to the park. The next area that we'll show you will be at TH 5 and CR 17 and then we'll move up to approximately the entrance to the church facility which you see up there at number 4. At the top you'll see number 5, from the northern area of the neighborhood. Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 7 e We will show you both what we call cross sections that cut across showing you the height according to scale of both natural conditions and the church and any existing buildings that may be off of the church property. Along with those cross sections, we also have used what's called a computer aided device in which we simulate with the architects the views from those same locations and those will be shown. After that, we will take you onto the site and show you graphics related to what are shown as item 6, 7 and 8 which bring you up closer to the building and then we will show you some renderings of the building itself. The top is a view, cross cut from the northern part of the property. Unfortunately the screen isn't wide enough but on my left you'll see a home which is difficult to see on this visual but it's to size, looking through, as I said, approximately 3 1/2 blocks to the church. The trees that you see are trees that remain on the site. Are on the site and are to scale. The next visual takes you as a cross cut from the property to the east and shows a 2 story home and again shows approximately a couple blocks distance and the church as it relates to that particular house. The next visual is, that middle one is from the east again. From the driveway and takes you in, it looks across the site from the driveway into the site. The last visual is one that comes from the lake side through the trees that remain and shows you the church in relationship to the trees and the lake. The topography that you see is the existing topography as it will remain after the church is constructed. This is the entrance to the park eand this is, as I say, a computer generated model to scale that shows how the church will be viewed from the park entrance. Peter is pointing to the church. The next slide is from TH 5 and CR 17. As you corne over the railroad bridge, that's CR 17 going in and the church, we've highlighted in the background as you can see. Peter Beck: This one would be at the intersection. The next one should be from the bridge. Robert Hoffman: Alright. This is from the entrance into the facility. The entrance sign and behind the trees you'll see the church. This is from the north part of the property looking towards the church and those are existing trees and the church is in the background. This is a site plan of the church itself with the entrance corning off of CR 17 into the property. The parking facility and the church facility. We have some cross sections that relate to views on the property itself. These again are the same cross sections we had before. The first is a cross section showing you coming in the entrance driveway and it shows a car entering into the driveway of the church. The next is through the berms on the parking lot. The parking lot, Peter if you'll point out where the parking lot is and you'll see the berming that surrounds the parking lot. The next is a cross section in the parking lot itself and illustrates the berming and landscaping. The particular light standard you see was the light standard with the original application which I belive was like 22 feet. Staff has recommended that be lowered to 17 feet and we have since amodified it and lowered it to 17 feet. The last one is another cross ~section through the parking lot showing the berming that will surround the parking lot itself. Then very quickly we will show these CAD produced graphics from those virtually same locations. This one again is half way up the driveway going to the church facility. The next one is halfway - Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 8 e onto the property looking at the church through the parking lot. The third one is again half way on the property looking up from TH 5 so we've about 3 blocks into the property at that particular location. If you will back up to the site plan. The church has been sited to take advantage of all existing grades so the minimal amount of earth movement will be required and the least amount of disturbance. The church wants to sit in a natural area and the original concept of the church several months ago was further to the north. In that particular locations, we would have been removing some mature trees and the church decided therefore to move it further to the south so as to not to disturb any of the existing trees on the site. None of the existing trees will be disturbed by this particular development. Traffic circulation is by the way of a two way drive entrance with a drop off door at the entrance of the church and as I indicated, including handicap parking, 290 parking spaces. This is in accordance with your ordinance. Is in excess of what we expect will be utilized but it does comply with your ordinance. There are service drives to the north and east sides of the building. One is, there's an internal trash container and the other is to the caretakers garage. Lighting has been designed to comply with the City Code and extensive landscaping has been provided. We have described that landscaping in the EAW and if you have any questions in regards to it, our landscape architect is available. Next, Tim if you'll go to the rendering of the church itself. This is the architectural design of the church. We have the material board, Ron if ~you will please. The colors are going to be a neutral colors of Kasota ~stone, which is smooth Kasota stone. It's a rough Kasota stone and some architectural masonary as you see on the particular development plan and drawing. The roof as recommended by staff will be matte and it will be of that beige type of color. Accent will be by the dark color that Mr. Krank is pointing to. As to the interior part of the church, which incidentally is not part of the conditional use requirement but we will run through it very briefly for you anyway. If you'll flip to that church. This is the main floor of the church. I've got too many years on me to be able to read that but the sanctuary and then the chapel and foyer which have provisions for robing for bride and groom for marriages and a coat storage area. Around the sanctuary are some religious classrooms and a religious reading room. To my left are some of the offices of the religious staff and the administrative staff. As I indicated, the church will not house any publishing facilities. Those will remain in New Hope. There will not be a theological seminary on site. There will not be a daycare center nor any of the other prohibited uses under your zoning code. The lower walkout level, this is the lower walkout level which has a fellowship hall and kitchen. There is an employee lounge. There is a children activity area. Caretaker's apartment and a caretaker's garage and miscellaneous storage and mechanical areas. The only living quarters on the premises are the caretaker's quarters. I think that's the end of the slides. Your staff has already reviewed with you it's report and has reviewed with you as to how the application complies with the ordinances of the City of Chanhassen. We have submitted to you either yesterday or this evening our ~ letter in response to the staff's recommendations for 15 cond i tions. That ~ letter is part of the record. We have already prepared and revised the plans to be consistent with those 15 recommendations and I'm going to briefly review those with you. The first was to add trees to the center landscape islands with the parking lot. We are adding and will add, and Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 9 e the plans reflect that additional landscaping which will comply with the recommendation. Condition 2 was the curb, the parking lot edge where head in parking stalls are shown. Our response is we will comply with that recommendation and Barton-Aschman has revised the plans to show the requested curbs. Condition 3 was that the entrance sign not be illuminated. We never intended to illuminate it but that does not show on our plans so now we've specifically noted it on the plans that the entrance sign will not be illuminated. A fourth condition was to reduce the lighting poles to 18 feet in height and we have now reduced the lighting poles to 18 feet in height. To meet safety standards, we've had to add 2 additional poles in order to get the necessary flood for those lights and our lighting plan has now been revised to provide for those additional lighting poles and to reduce the height. Condition 5 is the roof material have a matte finish and not a glare. The roof material will be non-reflective. It will have a matte finish and it will have a non-glare finish. Number 6, the exterior of the building not be bathed in light, was the phrase, and we have talked with staff on that particular matter and staff confirmed that they did not want the building bathed in light. The building will not be bathed in light. There will be some building illumination around the entrances for safety purposes and there will be some very low level illumination around again, primarily for safety purposes, around the church itself so it's very typical of many buildings you'll see in the city of Chanhassen as far as low illuminated _light around a building of this nature and complies with the standards set forth in Article 6, Section 17 of your zoning ordinance. Condition 7 is that the proposed. island at the entry should not extend into CR 17. Barton-Aschman has revised the plan so the island does not extend into CR 17. Condition 8, it was that the plan be presented showing the proposed road grade and cross sections and identify why a large radius was needed at the entrance and reduce the radius to less than 50 feet. The plans have been revised. The radius is reduced to 50 feet and detailed road plans and cross sections will be submitted to both the City and the County with the construction permit applications. Condition 9 is that the turn lanes be required on the entrance and should also include a turn lane design details. Our response is turn lanes are being provided and the plans will specify the dimensions of those turn lanes and those specific details will be submitted both to the City and to the County. Condition number 10 is the applicant be required to submit construction plans and specifications for the installation of watermain and sanitary sewer lines to be approved by the City Engineer. The utility plans now incorporate the City Engineer's recommendations that the sewer line be sized to 8 inches and again, detailed construction plans and specifications be submitted both to the City and the County at the time of the construction application pE:=rmit. Condition 11, runoff calculation be submitted to conform with the pre-development runoff criteria of the Watershed District and City are being complied with. The runoff calculations now confirm with the critl:=ria requirements of the Watershed and the City will be complied with. Condition 12, a drainage easement be dedicated to the City ~ in accordance with the attached legal description and sketch to ,., accommodate storm water runoff. The Eckankar will provide a drainage easement sufficient to accommodate all the drainage from it's property. If a larger drainage easement is necessary to accommodate off site drainage, that will be provided pursuant to typical compensation for a property Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 10 e owner carrying off site drainage. Condition 13, necessary permits from the County and Watershed District be obtained and complied with prior to construction and we will obtain those prior to construction. Condition 14, a roadway cross section be submitted for review along with a skimmer detailed plan. The skimmer detailed plan has been added to the plans and it meets the City requirements for construction permit including a cross section of the roadway. Finally, condition 15, applicant use Type III erosion control. The plans have been revised to specify Type III erosion control. In addition to the 15 conditions that were highlighted by your Planning Director, the Fire Inspector recommended 6 additional requirements and we are telling you on the record that we have submitted information which we comply with all those 6 requirements as requested by your Fire Inspector. If there are any further recommendations that address the conditional use made by you as a Planning Commission and the City Council, we will incorporate those in the design plans before the Council reviews the development. Members of the Commission, that is our presentation. As I indicated at the beginning of my comments, we have asked the City to incorporate into your record for your review and the City Council review, all the written material that welve submitted to the City. We will be submitting all of the graphics to the City in a form that can be kept in your records and we have submitted all of the statements of our consultants that address all of the matters that are necessary for acting upon a conditional use permit. I know that you have ea number of people here that want to comment on the application, and welre available for questions. Do you have any questions at this time? Conrad: I think later we will. Just to review what I said in the beginning, one of the things that we do here as Planning Commissioners is we help design the guidelines that we use for Chanhassen to grow and those turn into ordinances and other types of vehicles like that. At this point, we're going through, we're measuring an application to those guidelines. Those legal guidelines. If you were paying attention, our City Staff went through the 12 points that we legally have to review when an application comes in. Those are how we measure whether an application meets or fails our guidelines. So tonight, the Planning Commission will be looking at those 12 points and seeing how the application measures up. I know you donlt remember all 12 and that's our job to look at what the staff has recommended but as you recall, staff did recommend that the applicant met all 12 of our guidelines that we legally can enforce in this or any particular conditional use process. So as I open up the public hearing, I just want you to remember that we're going to be taking your input and balancing it or, not balancing it but measuring it against those particular guidelines that will influence our recommendation tonight. with that aside, I think we will open it up for public comment. Again, what lid like you to do, I'll call on you. I would like you to take the podium. State your name and address and we will listen to your comments. Leneda Rahe: Good evening City Planning Commission and service of aChanhassen. lid like to present a petition to you. My name is Leneda ~Rahe. I live at 1021 Carver Beach Road and live been a resident of Chanhassen for approximately 2 years. I'd like to, at this time also, before I present the petition, present some concerns and some information. I believe that a lot of the people here at this meeting do not know a lot Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 11 e of what has happened prior to this meeting and I would like to just give a brief summary. Eckankar purchased the property in 1985. They came in with a proposal for their international headquarters and at that time the property was zoned for residential and they did not meet the zoning requirements. They then settled their headquarters in New Hope. They had moved here from Menlo Park, California. In that timeframe, between then and now, they have obtained the tax exempt status they did not have before which has qualified them for this title of a church. Now they have come back with a proposal which is allowed in the zoning regulations. The 174 acres adjacent to Lake Ann Park has been considered by the community to be a very valuable plot of land for our needs since we are a growing community and we would like to ask questions about that because most of us had thought that it had been a possible site for a community center. Many of the people here had no idea that Eckankar owned the property or who or what Eckankar was. I feel that they have a right to know who Eckankar is and I would also like at this time for the requirements to be reread. Just number 1 if possible. Could you reread number 1 for me? Conrad: Will not be detrimental or endanger the public health, safety, comfort, convenience or general welfare of the neighborhood or the City. Leneda Rahe: That is one that I, as a member of this community, would like to contest and I feel that many of us here would like to contest that eour comfort and the safety and our health might be affected by the settling of Eckankar. Many of you when you came to the door tonight were offered an information pamphlet. There are quotes there about Eckankar themselves which clearly call them a cult. They deny they are a cult. A cult means group or sect deviating from society's norms or values according to the World Book Encyclopedia, Copyright 1988. Also, occult means secretive and they are that. They're founder, Paul Twitchell who is now deceased, has clearly called them this in the quotations that you see from their very own writings. After Paul Twitchell, their founder, died in 1971 or 1974, their new Eck Master, which is Darwin Gross, married Paul Twitchell's wife Gale and then he became the Eck Master. An Eck Master is someone who, as you also see, they completely surrender to him and he is the only path to total freedom. The reason that I mention this is because they also have relayed information to us which I feel is dishonest in saying that they do not have any mind control involved in their organization. That, I feel, would be a health hazard to us. First of all, dealing with the fact at hand, I feel that we need more information from them regarding many issues. We have a lot of people here who would like to speak so I won't tie up the podium any longer but on behalf of the residents of Chanhassen, each of you will be receiving a petition. One of the, also I feel one of the reasons for having a church in a community is to meet a need which already exists. As we had made available to us through the Chanhassen Villager a quote by Peter Skelsky, a priest of Eckankar, he noted that he would be here to serve the Chanhassen are and the metropolitan area. As I've been talking to the people of the .... communi ty, I have yet to meet an Eckankar member who is here that needs to ~be serviced and we would like to contest that also because we feel that, and we know that it is not going to meet a need which already exists in our community. Especially since they're a tax exempt organization and all of us know that we are the third highest of a 150 some suburbs in the Twin Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 12 e Cities as far as tax. We are the highest taxed, the third highest taxed and we will be paying for other property taxes for 175 acres for a facility which does not meet any need of our community. That is exactly what the petition states. Bill Engelbretson: My name is Bill Engelbretson. I live at 7120 utica Lane and we're an adjacent property owner on the north side of the Eckankar property so we'll see the view of the pyramid as shown from the north. I guess my real concern is that, as shown my this meeting tonight, people are going to think there are unusual things going on out there and our property abuts on it and when I come to sell my property, people aren't going to want to live there. Directly adjacent to it. I disagree with the staff. I think it's going to have a real adverse affect upon my property value. Fred Koppelman: My name is Fred Koppelman. I live at 18890 Deerfield Trail in Eden Prairie. I don't live in Chanhassen. I'm a friendly neighbor and I'm here because I am very concerned about the affects of Eckankar church moving here. I guess I feel if the Communist Party USA were to come here to locate, I'd be bothered about that. If the Ku Klux Klan would come, I'd be bothered about that too. If the American Nazi Party, I'd be bothered about that too. I think it's the effects that it would have. They physical plant, looks beautiful and I'm sure that's no ~problem at all for any of us. But as a neighbor, I live just across the .., line and I would urge you to think very carefully about this. Janet Weaver: My name is Janet Weaver. We just placed an offer on a home last night that was accepted in Chanhassen and we were not aware of what was happening. We learned about this today. I have a question regarding the church growth of Eckankar. I understand that their membership is currently 400 and they are building a sanctuary that should house about 800 and that indicates to me that they do anticipate church growth. What will they do when they reach capacity? Do they plan to expand at that point? They certainly have the acreage to do this. What are their purposes if they meet their capacity? Conrad: Mr. Hoffman, do you want to respond to that? Robert Hoffman: Mr. Weaver is correct. There is approximately 400 members of the Eckankar church. However, that doesn't include their families so it's being designed initially to accommodate the 400 members and some particular growth. As I indicated, there are 290 some centers around the world. There's already a center in the city of Minneapolis and the current plans are for no expansion of this particular facility at this particular time. Gordy Nagel: My name is Gordy Nagel. I did not come with a planned speech so if I stumble a little, you have to bear with me. I would like ~you to read the, of the 12 requirements, requirements 1, 2, 6 and 11. ..,Could someone read them out loud please? Conrad: I can. One is, will not be detrimental to or endanger the public health, safety, comfort, convenience or general welfare of the Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 13 e neighborhood or the City. Two, will be consistent with the objectives of the City Comprehensive Plan and this Chapter. Six, will not create excessive requirements for public facilities and services and will not be detrimental to the economic welfare of the community. Eleven, will not depreciate surrounding property values. Gordy Nagel: I contest all four of those. Madeline Hickey: Mr. Chairman and Commission. My name is Madeline Hickey. I live at 6990 utica Lane and I am also adjacent to the property to the north. My big opposi tion is number 1. My second is it will hurt my property value. Number three, Lake Ann, we're so worried about our children. We're so worried about the expansion and I think our City should buy that land back. It's perfect. Right next to the park and we're going to need more space. There was a meeting last night of women baseball players that can't play baseball here anymore because we don't have the room at Lake Ann. I don't think we need another church, particularly Eckankar. Jim Eastling: My name is Jim Eastling. I live at 7285 Pontiac Circle, j~st west of the property. I'm just concerned for our city and the reputation of our city with this church. Right now it's known as the home of the Dinner Theaters and I think that's fine. I don't want it to be tit known as the home of Eckankar. Janis Duininck: My name Janis Duininck and I would just like to say that I've been very proud of Chanhassen. I've look forward to raising my children here. If Eckankar comes in, I will remove my family from this community because I can not see, if they have a church here that they won't be moving here also and I will not have my children going to school with people that believe what they believe. Tim Vadnais: My name is Tim Vadnais and I live at 8110 81st Street in victoria, just down the road. I'm a father of 4 months and I recently moved to the area. I viewed this area as a very family setting. A very good place to raise a family so I feel that's endangered with this particular proposal. I'd like to have you repeat the first, I know it's been repeated before, we're not all familiar with city ordinances. If you could repeat the stipulation and slowly, one word at a time. I'd like to discuss maybe some of those intangible words. Conrad: Do you have it yourself? If you want to review the words, go ahead. Tim Vadnais: I'd just like to take a look at some of those intangibles. Comfort. What measure has been done to insure that our comfort is not impinged upon. I'd like to also discuss the study, the devaluement study and if I could address the person who worked on that study. _ Conrad: Mr. Hoffman, who rendered the opinion of valuation? Is that person here? Robert Hoffman: Yes. That's Mr. Al Learness. Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 14 . Tim Vadnais: Sir, could you tell us what went into that study and maybe a little background? Alan Learness: My name is Alan Learness. I'm a real estate appraiser with the real estate appraisal and consulting firm of Robert Boblett Associates based in Minneapolis. I live in the city of Minneapolis and I've been a real estate appraiser here in the Twin Cities for about 12 or 13 years. Conrad: I think the gentleman's interested in how you came... Tim Vadnais: I'm interested in the work and background. Can you tell us a little bit about the study. We're all concerned about our property values here. We'd like to know what facts were set forth to substantiate the statement that there would be no devaluement to our property. Alan Learness: Yes, I will summarize what I did as part of my study to come to the conclusion that I could find no evidence that the proposal before the City tonight would negatively affect property values adjacent or nearby. First thing I did was reviewed a book which Mr. Hoffman eluded to to de.scribe what the Eckankar program was. I was unfamiliar with it. A number of other things I did were to review the site plans that you saw ~as well as some others for general appeal or physical characteristics. I looked at the present Eckankar location at 3001 Louisiana in New Hope and analyzed if I could determine any effects on adjacent properties value by that location at that site. I looked at the location in Minneapolis, I think it's 2526 25th Street East in Minneapolis. It's a church assembly reading room. It's adjacent to some residential property. Adjacent to some industrial property and I analyzed any effects that were discernable from that location and any apparent affects on adjacent properties. I looked at several other churches in Chanhassen to see if I could see any negatives effects that were specific to churches in Chanhassen. I analyzed the Supreme Court decision on a church related use at 4551 East Lake Harriet Parkway. Again, a church use, communal church use in a residential location to see if there were any discernable negative affects on property value for that church and basically concluded that I was, I also drove the general areas of neighborhoods close by to the proposed church location to see what type of use was there and analyze how that might be affected by the proposed use and ended up concluding that I could not discern that there was any negative affect on the properties adjacent or nearby by the proposal. It seemed to meet prudent man tests that market definition implies and I concluded that I was unable to discern any differences. Tim Vadnais: Did you do any market assessment as far as incoming potential homebuyers? Would they be deferred from buying in Chanhassen if there was a church there? And my question is, I'm unfamiliar with the afacility in New Hope. Is that located in an industrial area or a ~residential area? Alan Learness: Specifically the 3001 Louisiana facility is located on the west side of Louisiana Avenue in an industrial park area. Immediately Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 15 e across Louisiana Avenue to the east are a series of single family residential homes so it's in an industrial area but adjacent to a residential area of single family homes. Regarding your market assessment, I did not study specifically what percent of people might or might not be against or in favor of. The City of Chanhassen appears to be growing and growing rapidly. We recently completed a study in our office addressing some issues that affect residential property values in a different area of the metro area and we looked at, or I applied those same kinds of principles to what issues affect value from a typical buyer's perspective. I can't tell you that one buyer or two buyers would or wouldn't be affected. I can tell you that I don't believe that there's an impact of degree that's going to be measureable on the affected properties adjacent or nearby to this proposed church. It's just not that much of a market affect that they can be determined at this time. Tim Vadnais: As you can all see from the first restriction, there's a lot of intangibles there and I believe in this situation here, I believe that those intangibles that obviously everything is to Code but there are some real deep intangibles I feel should be weighed heavily and more heavily than building specs. I feel there's a lot of questions that the planning council itself should ask about the potential builder. It's obvious everything that I've seen in the paper and what was quoted by that gentleman there, that there's been only one reference that's been e consul ted as to who is Eckankar and what are they all about. There's a number of questions. Why did they leave Menlo Park, California? Why was there a need to move their headquarters? There are a lot of questions I believe that the council should take it upon their responsibility to find answers for. I believe that you've been appointed by the Council, a Council elected by it's members to represent the best interest of this area and I ask that you consider that interest. Matt Hoffman: My name is Matt Hoffman. My wife and I just purchased a house and moved in this weekend at 931 Saddlebrook Trail. I guess when we first looked at buying a house in Chanhassen, we didn't know anything about Eckankar, that it existed even. Now half way through our building process we have found out about Eckankar. What it means. What it stands for. I guess I'm concerned, being directly in view of where the church is going to be, out my sliding glass window. How many people does Eckankar have that live in Chanhassen? Does anybody have a figure? Robert Hoffman: Mr. Hoffman, I don't have that number, I'm sorry. Matt Hoffman: Does anybody? Publ ic: Zero. Matt Hoffman: Is that really serving the needs of this community? ~Bob Cunningham: Councilmembers, my name is Bob Cunningham. I live at ,.,6840 Chaparral Lane. We moved to Chanhassen about 2 1/2 years ago from the east side of St. Paul. On the east side of st. Paul, I have 3 boys. I could not let them leave the block without somebody going with them. That's the type of neighborhood I was in. I moved to Chanhassen. I have Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 16 e 2 playgrounds within 6 blocks. I have Lake Ann where the kids can go swimming, playing, etc. and I do not want to have to put a chain around their necks again. If these statements are true, I think somebody better do some investigating. Barb Klick: My name is Barb Klick. I live at 7116 utica Lane and my property is adjacent to the proposed land here. First I would like to compliment the gentlemen. I think that your presentation and the building is beautiful and I guess I tried to corne here tonight with an open mind to learn some more about Eckankar and I guess I'm very disappointed and it just kind of increases my suspicions that none of the spiritual leaders were here tonight. They obviously must have known there had been some questions and some concerns in the community and it just makes my fears a little more deep rooted and deep seeded and I guess I'm disappointed at how professionally staffed they are with these gentlemen and really are lacking in the other area. Thank you. Jay Howard: My name is Jay Howard. I'm a Christian researcher in the area of cults and the occult. I have spoken extensively in the State of Minnesota and around the country and I was asked to corne here this evening to look at the proceedings and from what I see, this is not really a question of whether the land is appropriate or the buildings are appropriate, this is a question of whether the teachings and the beliefs eOf the Eckankar movement are really consistent with the Judeo Christian beliefs and ethics of your community. Just briefly I thought it would be important to let the Council know briefly what Eckankar is all about but I don't know how much has corne out in the papers but I just wanted to take a couple of quick quotes from some of the writings of Paul Twitchell, the 971st living Eck Master. The founder of Eckankar from what I can see in my research. I began researching Eckankar in 1986 because of a request that I had from the Eden PrairiejChanhassen community. According to the writings of Eckankar, Eckankar is 6 million years old. The teachings are 6 million years old and it's the fountainhead of all truth and philosophies. Therefore, all philosophies and religions are subordinate to the teachings of Eckankar or they've actually sprung out of Eckankar. Paul Twitchell has said this himself in his own writings, "Eckankar is the only way to reach the world of the Sugmad." The Sugmad, according to the writings of Eckankar, Paul Twitchell, is a being that is their idea of God. It is both good and evil. The lower half of the Sugmad is called Calnuronion. Calnuronion is a capricious entity that will, it's pretty much the creater of evil the universe and this is what Paul Twitchell has stated about Judeo-Christian beliefs or the teachings of the Judeo- Christian beliefs concerning Calnuronion. Furthermore, the Cal is the Jehovah of the Jewish faith and the father of the Christian teachings. Therefore, what they're saying is that the Calnuronion entity, the lower part of the Sugmad is actually the teachings that Christianity and Judism sprang forth out of the beliefs or the concepts of this evil force. They've also said that, concerning this thing called the Ancient Signs of A Soul Travel which is at the heart of Eckankar. I don't know how much ~people have been told about this but they believe that by having out of body experiences, they will reach the supreme God, the Sugmad that much quicker. They have stated, or Paul Twitchell has stated this in his writings when he says, "soul travel is the secret path to the Sugmad, the Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 17 e supreme being we know as God." Also, it should be noted that soul travel is just another name for what is called, in the world of the occult, if you were to look at a dictionary on the occult, the phrase is astral projection or astral travel so that's why when a couple people have mentioned that Eckankar has been delving into the area of the occult which is not in keeping with the Judeo-Christian teachings of this community, that is what they mean because this teaching of the soul travel is really an occultic belief and it is contrary to all the writings and teachings of, not only Christianity but the Jewish faith. And that's just a real brief overview of what some of the key teachings of the group Eckankar are. Thank you. Conrad: Before you leave, what's your address? Jay Howard: I'm sorry, it's 8304 Zane, Brooklyn Park, Minnesota. Conrad: You've done some research. You've obviously looked in textbooks. Have you done research as to where Eckankar has been and their impact on surrounding neighborhoods and what they try to do to neighborhing communities? Jay Howard: Yes. I've been following this for the last 3 years and I have to be honest with you. Menlo Park, California was contacted. The ~police department was contacted and they were told that, and this is a paraphrase, the police officer was quoted as saying, if you have to have a group, occult in your backyard, Eckankar would be the one because they have been known to be very benign. They have not had a history of child stealing and satanic rituals. The kinds of things that the community is concerned with but yet the overall emphasize of their teachings comes right out of Eastern mysticism and the occult. I'm not here to say that they have a pattern or history of hurting communities in that sense of child stealing and some of these things but they have been known to, their teachings are obviously contrary to the teachings of this community. Leneda Rahe: I'd like to ask a question again. As far as the assessment of the property values, by this gentleman that we met earlier? When can re-evaluation? My name is Leneda Rahe. can that be re-evaluated we expect that Conrad: I think that's a decision the City could make. Whether wanted that particular gentleman or somebody else to do it to ease your concerns. That's a possibility. Leneda Rahe: So by the end of this meeting this evening, could we at least be given a yes for sure this will be done and be allowed to know who will be doing it and what exactly they'll be looking at? Conrad: That's certainly an option and I think in our motion, somebody e may want to do that. Leneda Rahe: Okay, thank you. Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 18 . Carol Vadnais: My name is Carol Vadnais and I live at 8110 81st Street in victoria. I first became familiar with Eckankar apprxoimately 3, well 4 or 5 years ago when a friend of mine was asking me to pray about her brother who is involved in Eckankar and he was really becoming distant from their family and it was becoming a real problem within their family. From the article that I read that was in the Sailor, the Chanhassen Sailor, it had mentioned that there are really no threats to family life and no disruptions are usually caused by people that come into this group. It was a very, very deep concern and I talked to her just last night and she said that this brother is still involved in it and there are still deep family hurts because of it and the family is very distant from him so from someone who knows of it first hand in a family, it can cause very deep family problems. Dave Rahe: Hello. My name is Dave Rahe. I live at 1021 Carver Beach Road. I think we are all intelligent people here. We can look at common sense and also the writings of Eckankar, their leader Paul Twitchell. He's indicated and said that they are a cult. They are a cult religion. People do not view cults in a very positive fashion. If you look at common sense, it will indicate that our property value will suffer. Our children, our community will suffer. The concerns of these people that have spoken and that are here tonight speak loud and clear that there is a legitimate concern. What we've seen from Eckankar, they've obviously paid ea good deal of money to initiate what they have. Purchased the land. Hired some people to construct the initial phases of building the church. They've spent a good deal of money. They obviously have a good deal of money. Also the fact that their religious leaders have not decided to come to this meeting to be asked questions that are pertinent to the issues that, we feel we have concerns as citizens of Chanhassen that they would be able to answer. Common sense tells us that there are some issues here that need to be looked at very carefully and myself as a concerned Chanhassen citizen think that these are very grave concerns. As a father of 4 children, I am very concerned that the effect that they will have on our community. They may not go door to door, but their teachings may very well affect all of us and someday I may be standing here looking across at some Eckankar members sitting on the City Council and it will gravely change our community from what it is now as a Christian community that is concerned about families and I don't want to see it happen. I just beg you to please look at this very considerately. Thank you. Susan Albee: Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission. Susan Albee. 6871 Nez Perce Drive. I am not here to basically look at the religious beliefs of anyone in the community. My concern is the piece of property at hand and how to utilize it best. I'm looking at, of course, a very valuable piece of property. One that I don't want to see taken off the tax rolls. I think that the land use could certainly be more appropriate and from what I see, the City would have a need or different needs for the property. I can see a possibility of putting a moratorium on churches in aa residential district until such a time that this is resolved and I think ~the zoning ordinance should be looked at again and see if it can not be amended to a more appropriate use for the community. Thank you. Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 19 e Kathy Wendland: My name is Kathy Wendland and as a resident of Chanhassen I've learned a great deal this evening. I didn't realize that the 12 criteria that were read and have partly been discussed, were taken into account and in a way it's comforting but I have a question for you. How, as a committee, do you evaluate the qualities that are mentioned, especially number 1 that we've heard read several times? That's my question for you. Conrad: There are no numeric guidelines. We have to assess it individually and as will the City Council have to do that. Kathy Wendland: So there are no say polls or canvasing of the community taken? Conrad: No, there's not such a thing as a vote or a survey unless somebody feels that it's essential that that happen. But on new applications in Chanhassen on development, that would be highly unique. In fact it never has been done. Kathy Wendland: Yet some of them are so specific they automatically fit into certain criteria. I noticed, as the gentleman brought up, these are kind of subjective. Obviously they're important. They're placed number 1 and they're subjective but none of the community seems to have input on e this. It is subjective on your part and the part of the Council as well. Is that basically what you're telling us? Conrad: I think on these terms, yes, it's hard to put absolute values on some of these. You're right. Kathy Wendland: It isn't hard necessarily. What I'm suggesting is perhaps as a Planning Commission you need more community input, especially concerning the number 1. Mitch Weaver: Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, my name is Mitch Weaver. As my wife spoke earlier, we're considering moving into this community and after what I've heard tonight, it really concerns me and for the safety of my family. There was a handout that was given out tonight and I would like to read a phrase of this handout. It says, once any ECK member, and this comes from Twitchell's writings of Satsang Discourses, once any ECKist becomes a member of the Second Institution and beyond, he can not ever resign from ECK. If such persons ever attempt to resign or want to leave ECK for any purpose, they shall find it not easy to do. They will run into terrible problems. Now I would like you to very carefully consider whether this kind of commitment in a church is beneficial or detrimental to this community. Thank you. e Emmings: You said you were interested in moving into the community and now you're not sure and that you're afraid for your family. I've heard a lot of comments like that and I just wonder, what specific fear you would have that would prevent you from moving into our community if this church were here. Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 20 e Mitch Weaver: I think the fear is that this church is an occult and it is a cult and like the gentleman spoke earlier, this is a deviation from the norm of our society. The members of this community who have children going to schools here, I don't feel want their children associating with people who are an occult and being influenced by people in a cult. I did make a proposal on a house last night and it concerns me deeply in light of the new information that we've received tonight. Emmings: So you think your children would be at risk in terms of their contacts with members of this organization, is that it? Mitch Weaver: Yes I do. Janet Weaver: I'm Janet Weaver. Regarding what Jay had spoken earlier about, the expert on cults and occult. For the record, it should be known that astral projection, the out of body experience does not limit the person experiencing this to material and physical realms but they can proceed beyond your homes. They can go into your homes. They can go into other people's property and this does definitely concern me and item number 1 that it would be a violation of my comfort and my safety if someone were astral projecting into my property. Ross Cameron: e this. I have of freedom of religion. Frankly I'm surprised that I have to get up here and say heard a lot of concerns tonight, I haven't heard the concern speech one. I haven't heard the concern of freedom of Public: Name and address? Ross Cameron: 413 Santa Fe Trail. I've been here all my life in the area. Ross Cameron. 413 Santa Fe Trail and I haven't heard anybody say anything about being concerned about having people's beliefs tromped on etc. and I was wondering if anybody would like to feel if there's any sort of, what should I say, can anybody reflect on that a bit and hear that. Leneda Rahe: My name is Leneda Rahe and I have lots of reflections on the freedom on religion in this country. I deem it as a very positive part of our existence here in America and it's one of the reasons that makes us an opportunist country and it's a beautiful freedom. However, I think that religion needs to be redefined in this country and this is not an issue for the city planning commission but he asked for my reflections. If you redefine religion in terms of a criminal injustice, I can give you two very specific examples of where the religious freedom in this country was used to harm individuals. The Guyana tragedy started with Jim Jones and it began subtley by just the one person, Jim Jones who was the god of this head just like the Eckankar religion. They have a god and it's a mind controlling. We're looking at a dishonest thing where people can be harmed okay. I don't need to say how many died in Guyana. Secondly, .. there's another example in the Bhagwan Rajneesh in Antelope, Oregon in .1985 which began with the purchase of property. This was not what our forefathers of this country intended for the religious freedom of people to mean that they could harm whomever they wanted in their congregation by saying that they had a certain stipulation by which all the religious Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 21 e members of that group had to do. That to me is not religion. Gloria Cox: Hello. I'm Gloria Cox. I live at 6990 Shawnee Lane in Chanhassen. My husband and I and family have resided here in Chanhassen for 11 1/2 years. One of the hardest things to see is the family farm leaving the City of Chanhassen. The big industrial areas coming out here. People are moving out here from the cities. Chanhassen was built on farmland and there's a lot of history. The only thing is with the farmers leaving, I'm sure they would be very disappointed not to see families and children going on here in Chanhassen and use that property the best way to have it fit and that is for a community center or for all the people in Chanhassen and the surrounding communities to enjoy it. From Waconia all the way around. Carol Watson: My name is Carol Watson and I live at 7131 utica Lane. I'm adjacent to the property. My big concern at this point is, it was a brief few years ago that they were here. They were going to pay taxes. They were going to have a publishing house. They were going to have some offices and that was what was going to be on that property. At that point in time, they told us, I believe we were at the Dinner Theater for the meetings, they told us they didn't have churches. That people met in small groups and centers and stuff and that they didn't have anything they called a church and they certainly didn't have anything called a e sanctuary. In these br ief few years, they now have a church that needs to house 800 people and needs a caretaker on site. It has 290 some parking spaces and if that can happen in the brief years since they owned this property, I'm concerned about what can occur in the next few years. Dan Mahady: Good evening. My name is Dan Mahady and I live at 1020 Butte directly across the street from the entrance to the Eckankar proposed church. I just moved in in October and this is my first home. I've been very excited about moving in the community and so on. I had no idea about who owned that land over there until I saw it in the villager paper here a few weeks ago. It was my impression that it was probably going to be for residential area and as everybody here is concerned for their families and so on, which I was very happy to be proud of. When I first found this out, needless to say I was quite shocked and I'd just like to go on record as saying that I am definitely opposed to the church being located on that property as I think the majority here have spoken here tonight. Rosie Peitz: My name is Rosie Peitz and I've lived here, I'm a mother of 6 children. We've lived in Chanhassen 25 years. We love this city. It's our home and I just feel that each of you on the commission really should examine your consciences. This is a moral issue. We do not want Eckankar to come in Chanhassen. We do not need it. We do not want it and I can't understand why they would even want to be here knowing we don't want them and we never will want them. I have a deep concern for my family and all my friends in the city of Chanhassen. e Jan Lash: My name is Jan Lash. I live at 6850 utica Lane. I briefly made notes of the zoning ordinances when Mr. Hanson was reading them and I guess I would go along with other people in questioning 1, 4, 6 and 11. I you figure that out, that's 4 out of the 12 ordinances that people have Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - page 22 e grave doubts about. I think that should be a significant thought in your mind and I guess I would agree that if this property is taken off of the tax rolls, which I think it probably already has been, I would rather see it benefit our community and I don't feel this church would benefit our community because it has no members. The numbers that were read tonight of having 290 centers in 92 different countries, it's probably not fair on my part to average this out but that would be roughly 3 centers per country and we already have one in Minneapolis. I guess I don't understand why they need another one here. I guess if they can leave their body, I don't know why they have to have their church out here to start with. They could have it anywhere they want. Pat Albrecht: My name is Pat Albrecht. I live on 6951 Tecumseh Lane. It seems to me things are kind of backwards in that the zoning ordinance seemed to be ruling what the community does rath"er than the community making the rules for what they want. I don't think, as she said, I don't think anyone does want Eckankar. It seems that they backed out last time because they weren't wanted and they're still not wanted. Jean Burke: My name is Jean Burke and I live at 225 West 77th Street. It seems that there is some confusion in your minds as to how we're concerned about our children but as I'm driving to beautiful Lake Ann and my children ask what the pyramid in the sky is, I am going to have to build ~an invisible wall to protect them from what I feel is harmful to them spiritually. This is a moral issue in that my spiritual growth is affected. My emotional growth is harmed. This emotionally upsets me. Physically, I'm fine. Emotionally, I'm shattered to think that my community would welcome something that is going to be a barrier for my children. I will have to tell them on the way to Lake Ann that this is a piece of property that we don't play on. We don't go near. If we're invited, we say no. It is evil. It is wrong. This is not a facility I want in my community, especially adjacent to a property that I think is the highlight of this area. The pyramid is not invisible. It is a sign of an organization that is supporting beliefs different from my Judeo-Christian background. I moved here 5 years ago and was thrilled to see the cross on the main street of the old Catholic church in Chanhassen and this is still my background and I am still proud of the cross and not proud of the pyramid. Dawn Opitz: My name is Dawn Opitz. I live at 870 Nez Perce Court in Chanhassen. I guess I'd also just want to reiterate, I heard this gentleman say several times about the fact that this priest can marry people and for anybody that doesn't know this, it is very easy to be able to receive the requirements to marry a person. That's nothing noble. I think that so far that's the only service that I've heard offered to us. I just want to say, just so we remember when we leave this room tonight, to not forget what, you know, not the heat of the moment but just not forget, don't be deceived by what these people are trying to do. They .' aren't here to serve us. They have no interest in us whatsoever. They're only selfish. They have nothing to offer us. They're not here offering us anything right now either. I just want to say, just remember tonight and if they do, if they do get in here, continue to remember what they stand for. I guess just be a greater influence yourself on Chanhassen. Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 23 e Mark Johnson: My name is Mark Johnson. I come by myself. Unrepresented by any group or anything else. I live at 504 West 76th Street and the father of 4 young children. I think there's been a lot of concern expressed by young families here this evening. I don't believe that this group meets the requirements of the ordinance, and I think ordinance number 1 specifically. With the concern of the young parents, I would like the Planning Commission to consider that with this amount of discontent from young families, we will move. That will have a profound impact on the public school system in this district. Then maybe the church would like to move into the space that's left in the open schools. Bobby Kiessard: My name is Bobby Kiessard. I live at 7604 South Shore Drive. I have small children. I'm able to keep them under my wing right now. My concern is, if these people get in, when my children are teenagers and teenagers have enough problems, enough to deal with but if my kids have to deal with that malarky when they're teenagers, I'm moving out as well. It scares me. Dave Rahe: My name is Dave Rahe, 1021 Carver Beach Road. I guess I just had a question that came to mind in regard to the 20 office spaces that are supposedly going to establish this church. They have a membership of about 400 and probably 100 people possibly maybe attending. I guess I _WOUld like a little bit more of a definition as to why a church of that size needs 20 offices. My fear is that after they're in, perhaps a year, perhaps 2 years, they may start suddenly moving in their printing presses. Their other manufacturing goods and I guess if this were to come to pass, that they do move in, are we going to moniter them because as a Chanhassen citizen and knowing the background that I know about them, I certainly don't trust them per se for face value. It seems a lot that they need 20 offices. Conrad: A couple comments. Steve, if they did expand, they would have to come back for a conditional use? Hanson: That's correct. Emmings: Or if they changed the nature of the use. Conrad: Or if they changed the nature of the use they'd have to come back in so technically they couldn't expand unless they came back through the process. Mr. Hoffman, there were 20 offices that the gentleman said were in the building. What are they to be used for.or could you clarify that for us? Robert Hoffman: Mr. Chairman, I said there would be 20 office workers, not 20 offices. I'm not too sure of the number of offices. I think there's 4 or 5 offices. Those will be both full time and part time. e Conrad: So I understand that you have no definition as to what these offices will or may be doing? L Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 24 e Robert Hoffman: I think if you're familiar with most churches, they have a staff. The staff varies in size and they'll be administering the church facilities and the church services that they have in the church. Dave Rahe: We presently attend a church that has approximately 2,300 members staffed by approximately less than 10 people. I don't know how big a staff your church has but it's a pretty big question in my mind why a church of that size would need 20 offices or rather 20 employees as officers in that size of church. It's a big question mark and I don't think that's addressed appropriately here, or hasn't been answered anyway. Thank you. Rosie Peitz: I talked before and I know I forgot to give you my address. It's 7607 Kiowa and I'm not with any group or anything either. I just came on my own and I just happened to think of some thing. Somebody mentioned teenagers before and I remember when they were here before at the Dinner Theater 3 years ago. Someone had asked them if they go soliciting door to door and they said no, they don't. What they do is they go to the schools and reach the different schools and colleges and so on. I also have teenagers. I have children ages 27 down to 10 and that really bothers me. I just want to say, couldn't we', this is a big load for the Planning Commission to have, to make the decision whether to have the whole city of Chanhassen, what shall I say, anyway. I can't think ~right now but anyway, couldn't this be brought to a vote through the City? I feel all the people in Chanhassen need to have a vote on this since it is a big moral issue and does relate to all of us and our children. I guess I would like to see that brought to a vote. Conrad: Maybe we can ask our City Attorney for comment on a vote issue. Rosie Peitz: It's not just a few here. It's the whole city that will be involved. Dave Grannis: Mr. Chairman and members of the audience. A vote on an issue like this is not legally appropriate. There's no provision in the law that would allow the City Council to hold a special election to consider an issue like this, either for or against. The City Council and the Planning Commission hold a public hearing. That's where we are right now. The purpose of that hearing is to let people air their views and state their position. Beyond that, the Council could, if they want, or the Planning Commission do some additional surveys informally. Mailings or whatever. That's kind of an optional thing with the Planning Commission and the Council. Rosie Peitz: I think the rest of the people of Chanhassen should know exactly what's going on. I think they have a right to know and a right to vote on it. ~ Leneda Rahe: I'd like to ask a question of the Attorney. I know of a ~ specific case with Art Owens and his being sued because of mental anguish that he supposedly caused to many people. Who would be prepared to meet the lawsuits against the City or whomever when the mental anguish starts to begin in this City? Who would be liable for that? Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 25 e Dave Grannis: If the City is sued because of an action that they take regarding to a matter relating to their zoning or something similar to that... Leneda Rahe: Going against stipulation number 1, the requirements is our comfort and our health. Dave Grannis: The City has insurance to cover that okay. Their insurance company would defend on behalf of the City. It becomes just like any other civil lawsuit and somebody would have to prove that the City did something in an improper or illegal manner. Alan Peterson: My name is Alan Peterson. I live at 6697 Countryside Drive in Eden Prairie. We are a property owner, or plan to be building in Chanhassen. I think you've already put us through mental anguish since we've kept him up an hour and a half past his bedtime and I've been sitting back there just kind of fuming and fuming and fuming and watched some of the members of the Planning Commission watching attentively and others seem to be sort of bored. The reason I'm here is my wife was in the back saying are they listening to you or are they listening to us? My hope is that you are listening to the people and that you are listening to the young families and you listen to Mark Johnson who said there are young _ families who are considering building or moving in and we will move. I ~will sell my lot and I will move to a community that has moral standards to keep things like this out of the area and I hope that you listen to us as members of the community and not listen to a battery of lawyers. Craig Thornberg: My name is Craig Thornberg and I live at 10765 Bush Lake Road Circle in Bloomington. I just have one thing to mention to the board here is that under the First Amendment we have the freedom of speech. That means legally we have a great amount of power in our opinion. The public opinion being expressed has legal ground and I would ask you to consider public opinion as a very strong legal ground which would have, what would I say, would have much to do with what you would make your decisions on and I'm hoping that you're considering that. Thank you. Resident from Audience: ...not a legal issue and when the proposal was first presented, the recommendation was to accept it. Last summer as I recall, the Senate was undergoing some hearings on a man named Robert... His qualifications were impecable. Nobody found fault with that but he was denied a place on the Supreme Court over a moral issue. I really ask you to consider your consciences and the opinions that you've heard tonight. We've tried the best we can to express our feelings... Emmings moved, Erhart seconded to close the public hearing. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The public hearing was closed. _Erhart: Is there anybody here representing the Eckankar group who is a member of Eckankar? That's a little amazing to me. It really perks my interest in this and I haven't heard anything about this group before today. What I'm trying to assess in my mind is the rights of the property Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 26 e owner versus all the standards that we've listed several times this evening and trying to judge whether the property owner here in their proposal, how it relates to the standards that we're to judge this proposal and to use that in making recommendations to the City Council. I have a number of questions in my mind relating to a number of these standards, and I have quite a list of questions here, that I personally don't think can be answered by anybody but a'member of this church who's an acting leader in the church. without that person being here, I don't even know that it's worth proceeding with any conclusions. I look around and it's obvious this group has a lot of experience in fighting residents because I've never quite seen an entourage like this. I don't even think I saw it with Bush's trip to China. Secondly, since my experience has been on here, we've had a couple churches come in with proposals for church buildings and if I was the architect I would wonder if I was getting paid so I really, just from the overall affect, that the consultants have portrayed here tonight and I know what it says intent is but the reaction that I have to it is that we're getting a snow job. Let me go on, let me deal with some questions that I have on the specific site plan itself and then I'll go back and see if we can make any headway. steve, you had a number of agencies that you requested information from that you had no response. Normally we do get response from the Soil Conservation and watershed District. Do we have that now or don't we have that? e Hanson: No. We did not get a response from either of those. Erhart: Normally do we have that when we review? Hanson: Normally if they have comments they respond, yes. Erhart: Otherwise, if they don't have and they don't respond? So you don't expect any comments from them? And you're satisfied with that? Hanson: That's what we normally do with an application. Erhart: Gary Warren's recommendation on the location of the 8 inch, I understood from the applicant that he's agreed the 8 inch trunk. Has the location been satisfied? Hanson: I believe the specific location, I don't know that the exact location has been tied down which normally we would do that with final construction plans. Erhart: Do you feel that that should be one of the items in our list of conditions? There's a number of things here that are not listed in our conditions that have been recommendations by Gary Warren and I'm just wondering if we should be including them. e Hanson: All of his should have been included. Erhart: It doesn't say 8 inch. Also, on page 4 of Gary's recommendations there's the concrete barrier curbing included on the entrance roadway. I don't see that in there and it hasn't been answered I don't believe. I'm Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 27 _ not too sure, is he recommending concrete barrier all the way in from CR 17 into the site? Hanson: Yes, according to that memo he is. Erhart: Then I suggest we add that to the conditions. Also, number 8, the applicant address the nutrient loading impacts to Riley Lake. Has that been answered? Is there a reason why 7, 8 and 9 aren't listed? Hanson: I suspect what happened is when this was typed up, those were left off because they're all on that separate page. The intent was that all of the conditions of engineering would have been added to that memo. Erhart: As such then, the applicant hasn't responded to those four items. Hanson: I believe they did not. Erhart: Do we normally ask for easements when people apply for conditional use permits or is that normally associated with subdivisions? Hanson: Normally with a subdivision. Erhart: So in this case you don't feel that it's appropriate to look at _trail easements or street easements? There's no money given? Hanson: The process that we do that through is with the subdivision. Erhart: Alright, so anyway I think there's a few more things there that probably need to be answered. One of the things that I'd like to see during this, the building and site plan, that we add a requirement that no outdoor speaker systems be allowed. I think we've already had trouble in our city. If Jim was here, I think he could tell us about last summer we had one of our local businesses decided to go outdoors with their activities and from listening to this business, it doesn't sound like that's out of the question so I'd like to see that as a condition. Did we move the handicapped parking area as requested by the Public Safety? Hanson: I don't know. The plans that I have not had those moved. Erhart: Are we going to request that? Hanson: I think you can add that if you'd like. We looked at it as where there are handicapped spaces shown and where the other parking is, the distance that's achieved either way, it's kind of a draw. Erhart: Okay, I'll leave that one to you. If you feel that it's a moot issue and then I don't care one way or the other either. We did add the fire hydrant? I'm looking at, on the fourth page in your comments from _ the building inspector and the fire inspector, they were asking for an "'additional fire hydrant. Has that been added? Hanson: I believe in their presentation they agreed to do the conditions of the Fire Inspector. Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 28 _ Erhart: Okay, and also include the fire alarm system? Hanson: Yes. Erhart: Maybe you can tell me, can you describe the New Hope facility to me? Robert Hoffman: The New Hope facility would compare to an office/tech center that you might have in one of your office parks. It's a single story combination office/warehouse type of building. Erhart: What goes on in there? Robert Hoffman: The publication, production, the audio visual production, their computer systems for their worldwide members, their mailing services, their offices, international offices. If you went inside of it, which you're invited to do, it looks like an office. Erhart: How many people are employed there? Robert Hoffman: Do you remember Peter? About 40? About 40 to 50. _Erhart: They own the facility? Robert Hoffman: Yes. Erhart: It's in an industrial park? Robert Hoffman: It's in an industrial park across the street from residential. Immediately facing the residential. Erhart: Is it unique, like a church or is it... Robert Hoffman: You mean the building? Erhart: Yes. Or does it fit in with the asethetics and the setting of other industrial park buildings? Robert Hoffman: Yes, it would be similar, I have to describe it as an office/tech type of building. Erhart: So if Eckankar decided to move out of that building, it would be fairly easy to sell to another industrial or office user in the park? Robert Hoffman: I would assume so if there's a market there. It's not an unusual office/tech building. ... Erhart: So it would be a likely place to go if you were looking for a ~temporary international headquarters? Robert Hoffman: That's your conclusion I guess. Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 29 _ Erhart: I guess I'm concerned about the services provided to the organization. I guess one of the questions that I wanted to ask some of the members was the history of the organization and also I wanted to ask, has anybody Steve, on the staff, done some research as to what experiences other cities have had with Eckankar facilities? Hanson: No. We treat them as any other church that comes in. Robert Hoffman: If I may respond to that. Your Public Safety Department in 1985, according to a memo of the City made, as they called it, an investigation of Eckankar's activities in Menlo Park, California which was then their headquarters and that's a memorandum of a couple pages which I'm sure you have in your record. The conclusion of that investigation by your Public Safety Department was as follows, governmental agencies and private firms in the vicinity of Eckankar's existing facility highly recommend Eckankar as a supportive member of the community and they had been there for about 12 years. I believe there is a quote, I think by the City Manager of New Hope in the Sailor, which I just read today, that basically said they've been there for 3 years and we don't even know they're there. There're a good neighbor. Now we have a series of letters from different cities where Eckankar has had seminars that are highly complimentary but I don't know if you're interested in those or not. Hartford, Conneticut and Idaho and a number of others. -Erhart: There is a facility in St. Paul as well? Robert Hoffman: Yes. It was in St. Paul. Now it's in Minneapolis. It's been here since 1973 and you're welcome to talk to anyone in the neighborhood. Erhart: And that's in addition to the facilities in New Hope? Robert Hoffman: Yes, that's correct. Erhart: What goes on in the facilities in Minneapolis? Robert Hoffman: It's their spiritual center again. They hold meetings and readings and study groups. Erhart: And where is that located? Robert Hoffman: The address is, I guess I don't have that. Do you have that? Oh, it is 2526 25th Street S.E., Minneapolis. Erhart: Is that a residential neighborhood? Robert Hoffman: I'm going to say yes. _Erhart: That's by the University of Minnesota isn't it? Robert Hoffman: Yes. Prior to that they were at 8807 S.E. 4th Street. They were there from 1975 to 1986 and they've been in this present location since 1986. Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 30 e Erhart: Where do people go if you wanted to become a student of Eckankar and I assume they have some kind of school, where do you go? Robert Hoffman: It's a study group. Erhart: These are the kinds of questions that I just can't get answered. I guess what I'd like to see is someone from Eckankar. I'm trying to understand. The question in my mind is, what is the long term intent of this facility here? Robert Hoffman: Of the church? Erhart: Of the church, yes. Robert Hoffman: To use it as a church. Erhart: Yes, I understand that but in my short experience on the Planning Commission, I've seen people come in with proposals and they get approvals and as soon as they get the approval and then they come in a little bit later when they get the first block laid and then geez whiz, now I have a little better idea and now we want to do something different and I think one of the things we owe to the Council is to pass onto them some research eas to long term intent and what are the possibilities. A proposal from a structure standpoint looks real neat today but I assume that in the structural there's some, you've taken into consideration abilities to add onto this building. Robert Hoffman: Not as it's designed. Erhart: Is there anyway to add onto the building? Robert Hoffman: Mr. Krank is here. I believe the answer is no. I supposed you can add onto any building but architecturally it's not designed to be added onto. Is that correct Mr. Krank? Ron Krank: Anything is possible but the design has not been programmed to add onto. Erhart: Okay. I guess without understanding the pattern and the objectives of the church specifically, it's hard for me to determine what the intent is of this 174 acres. I guess that's the issue and these are some of the more benign questions that I have relating to what is Eckankar. Robert Hoffman: I'll answer your last one. First of all, the church has no intention of expanding the church facilities as such and have not been designed for expansion. Secondly, if there would be any additions to the .. property, I think your City Planner and your City Attorney would advise ~you that it would have to be in accordance with your ordinances. So presumably the balance of the property could be developed for single family housing under your ordinances without a conditional use and without a rezoning. If any other use was proposed that was inconsistent with your Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 31 e ordinance, you'd have to change your ordinance. I will tell you that Eckankar will only develop the property in accordance with your ordinances. Whatever they are today or next year or 20 years from now or 40 years from now. Erhart: I think from the responses or the comments by Carol Watson, and again I don't expect you to answer questions on where and what the objectives of this church is. In fact, I discount your answers substantially but I just might want to point out that Carol Watson indicated her experience on the Council in 1985 and what the goals were then is not in line with what the goals that you stated for the church. Again, it concerns me a little bit what's happening to this property and I guess I'd like to have, what I'm getting to when I get down to the end half an hour from now I suppose, I'd like to have the opportunity to have some church members in this room at a future Planning Commission meeting where we could get some more information on the background of the organization. Robert Hoffman: If you'd want to better define background, if you're talking about the philosophy of religion, which we don't think is a proper subject by the way for this discussion. If that's your idea of background, then they will not be here. _Erhart: The question I have is... Robert Hoffman: By the way, I'm a Catholic and have been as a birth Catholic. I've got enough gray hair so I remember some of the comments being made, also being made against Catholics not too many years ago. Erhart: But I think the citizens of this community is owed an answer from an official representative of the church as to if, have they ever recruited members door to door? Robert Hoffman: The answer is no. I can tell you that. Erhart: I don't think that you're an official representative of this organization and I've got a whole series of those questions relating to the issue of safety and health. I'm all for land owners rights but I also believe that the citizens here deserve some answers from the leadership of this church and not paid consultants. And it isn't worth getting into an argument about, that's just my opinion and getting into it further will probably just waste a lot of time. Robert Hoffman: If you wish to ask questions that relate to the conditional use that the church members can answer, we'll be pleased to have them answer them. Erhart: The conditional use, I can spell out. It's been read three times ~here tonight that one of the things we have to evaluate is, is it "'detrimental to the health, safety and comfort? You have someone's opinion that says it's not. Well, I'll get into that but let's take one thing at a time. In the first place, I guess I'd like to know what it takes to get to be verified as a church. Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 32 e Robert Hoffman: Your ordinances spell it out very clearly. Erhart: I think our ordinances refer to sanctioned as a church in the State of Minnesota. It also says that they come, you guys handed out so much paper here it will take me half an hour just to find the sheet I want to find here. Steve, help me. Here it is. It says a church means a building or edifice consecrated to religious worship where people join together in some form of public worship under the direction of a person who is authorized under the laws of Minnesota. I'm not convinced that this organization worships. Again, I don't want to get into religion but the ordinance says it worships and I guess I'd like to understand how the State of Minnesota goes through the process of determining if this is a church. I have some questions about that and without having a member representative here, I don't think it's worth getting into the kind of questions. Plus, I guess I'd like to hear what the process was for that to determine if this is a church. So I'm not convinced that it's a church. .It certainly hasn't come in here like any church that I've ever seen. Most of the money of the churches that I've been involved with seem to go to other things than building and consultants. No offense taken. No offense meant. That's my number one question. I'm not sure it's a church. I'm not saying I can't be convinced that it's a church. I think with some further research. Secondly, I guess I carne in here reading the _material and I wasn't, either I missed it or it wasn't provided, I did not see the material from the research of 1985 in my packet. Maybe I missed that on the memo part thing but I was not convinced that the health and safety and comfort issue was worthwhile. I didn't think there was an issue there but after listening to the public here, even I who is a property owner here, probably respects property rights as much as anybody in Chanhassen, has not been swayed in my mind, I'm not convinced that there isn't a concern to health, safety and comfort. I can empathize with people living in the neighborhood with on a daily basis thinking about the facilities there and what the objective of the facility is. We're over, I think keeping in mind that our school is right across the street from this facility is a second issue. So I think I'm a little weak on that one but I'm not convinced without some more research that there's not an issue of health and safety here. Going back to number 1, I guess my conclucion and recommendation is that I guess I'd like to see the City contact the Attorney General's office because I think it's a little bit out of our experience and to see whether there is any history or get a determination of what their opinion is regarding Eckankar being a church. I don't know when that determination was made or on what basis it was made. In reviewing this again, I guess I'd like to have that comment, or their response to that Steve if anybody else thinks that's appropriate. Third, my bigger concern is that I think this organization with the proposed facilities, one, not paying taxes and secondly, is that it has the potential of requiring excess city services which is one of the standards we weigh this proposal and I think it sounds from a couple of examples .-.given by representatives of the group, that in other locations it hasn't ,.,required excess services, I guess I'd like to see our own investigation to determine if excess city services had to be provided due to things, I can imagine potential for disturbances due to students. If the real intent is that students use this is a training facility or if parents get upset Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 33 e because members of their family start attending or whatever. I guess I'm not so much against what you're saying but I guess I'd like to hear it, I'd like to get some independent study of what other communities have experienced in this matter because here's a facility that's not going to pay any taxes and we certainly should be providing excess services. Fourth, if the thing is as quiet as they say they are, I suppose there's the potential that property values will not devaluate. On the other hand, when I come into this meeting and I see television cameras from 3 studios, I question whether this group, with the purposes that it has, can be quiet and I believe that negative attention will mean negative property evaluations. I think the potential exists with the media to turn, seriously a comment was used here tonight that was one that I came to this afternoon. If there was a lot of negative publicity, we could be converted from the City of the Dinner Theater to the City of Eckankar and I know we used the word cults, since they seem to claim it as part of their creed and if that happens, there's no question that property values will devaluate. A number of people have stated that here tonight and the question, I guess the thing that really sets in my mind is Mr. Leirness, to draw your conclusions by going and looking at the property without doing a study of what people had to say in the surrounding property, and it's in an industrial site, not a residential. It's in a major city as opposed to a city with the population of 8,000. I think there's a lot of factors there that were overlooked. My recommendation is that we get our e own appraiser and have them come in with a professional appraisal paid by the City of Chanhassen and see what his assessment would be on this matter. Lastly, number 5, I tend to view, given what I've seen here and not what was said but what I've seen is that the business, or the applicant, if not actually a business, operates more like a business than a church. I believe, since I operate a business, businesses need to grow. Staff more people. Bring in more customers and so forth and I think if we go into this with Eckankar, I think we ought to have open eyes at least to know whether it's a business, a church, if it's a pseudo-business church. A clear understanding of what it is we're dealing with here because I think if it was a church serving this area, I don't know why it picked here so I still think it's a business but I'll be open and try to get more information on this. I heard some things discussed here, I guess what I'd like to see, this is the second time the City and staff and other commission members and citizens have come up on here on this idea, I'd like to see the City consider buying this property. I think we need space for future schools. We're talking about putting a community center in the middle of our playground. That tells me we need some space here that people can use. We had a meeting Monday night where it was stated we don't have enough park space. We have to throw out some softball players that have been here for years and lastly, I think out of 174 acres, my concern is that as an entity, they can continue sitting on the whole space or using it for classified religious reasons which means there wouldn't be any taxes paid on it at all. My feeling is, even if we had to pay 5 million dollars, somehow we are creative enough with our downtown to get ~ this stuff to pay back. If you look at this property and buy it at some ~ kind of money that would be in line with the valuation or the proponents valuation and try to come up with a way that the tax money would pay it back and I think we ought to take the time to look at that. So my recommendation is, I guess what I'm precluding is that my recommendation Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 34 e is, I'd like to see this thing tabled until we can get some representatives of the church in here or members and to look at some other options. To get an appraiser to look at the valuation situation and get some more of these questions answered in my mind. Emmings: I'm going to start at the bottom and then work my way to the top here. As a bottom line, I think that this proposal should be approved. Now, I'll go back and obviously I'm not going to set off the applause meter. It's fairly easy to see what you have to say to do it but in that regard, I'd like to say that the one gentleman who got up and spoke about Constitutional rights and First Amendment rights and rights of association and freedom of religion had a lot of guts because he knew the crowd and we've got to respect him for that. I also respect the concerns of the other people that were raised here. I have no doubt in my mind that everybody's expressing genuine concerns. Genuine fears of something that is real poorly known. I think it is disappointing that they won't come and talk to us about their religion since it's of interest to so many people that,live here but I don't think they have any requirement to do that. If they don't want to, that's their choice. I noticed in the morning paper, someone made the comment that this proposal is going to tear our community apart and I think that rather overstates the case. Maybe it's just going to tear the Planning Commission apart since I have to sit next to Tim but, anyway, in a way the Planning Commission operates, ~we don't really make any decisions so if the people go with me, you can WI' feel comfortable about that. We make recommendations to the City Council and they lots of times look at us like we're crazy and go the opposite direction and that's the way the system is supposed to work and that's fine. But someone did get up and make a comment that I'd like to address as kind of a side issue first of all. They said it seems like the zoning ordinance is ruling the community rather than the community ruling the ordinance, or setting the rules and I don't think you've got that right. Ladd's been here longer than anybody, he's older than any of us, and I've been here second longest and we've been through the Comprehensive Plan a couple of times and very frankly, the zoning ordinance implements the Comprehensive plan and then we apply the zoning ordinance. Right now we're in a position where we have to apply that zoning ordinance to the specific proposal that's in front of us and if we do that in a very honest way, there's no way we can do anything but approve this. Not a lot of people have said this is a moral issue but the fact is that what we're charged to do, it's strictly an application of the Zoning Ordinance to the application in front of us. Now you may not like that and you're shaking your head no out there but that is what we're charged to do and that's what I think we have to do. Now, when we establish a comprehensive plan, we hold public hearings all the way through to decide where the future, what is the future of this city and I can tell you that I've sat here through many meetings where there was not one person from the public in those chairs out there to give us feedback as to where the public wants to see the city go. All of those meetings are advertised in the paper and you all have an opportunity to be here and if you have any complaints ~ about the comprehensive plan or the zoning ordinance in terms of not being responsive to where the people of the city think the city should be going in you have no one to blame but yourselves. We really want people to come and give us feedback but the feedback of the nature that you're giving us Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 35 e now is too late because there are things in place that have to be implemented. I didn't make comments when you spoke and I appreciate the chance to heard. Now it's my turn. As to specifics, I really disagree with Tim that it should be tabled. I think it should be moved up to the City Council. I think that we should take, I know that the view that I'm taking of what our job is is a narrow view but I think it should be moved up to the City Council because they're the people who are responsive to the public directly because you directly elect those people and all of the things that you've said will be presented to them verbatim. There will be a verbatim transcript of this and they'll have all of that in front of them. I too, Mr. Hoffman eluded to the fact, I grew up in a town that was a small town that was half Catholic and half Protestant and there was two of everything and everybody knew who everybody else was and I thought it stunk. I really hated it. I hope that we don't evaluate families when they move in to our city as to what their beliefs are before we let them buy a house. I hope we don't evaluate churches as to what their beliefs are before we let them build a church. I don't think we want to build a wall around Chanhassen. I think we're stronger than that. I hope we're not that weak. There are two sides to this thing. One is, what do we do with the application in front of us. The other side is all the emotional stuff. All the religious stuff. All the moral stuff. At this level, I would advocate that we deal strictly with the job that we've been charged to do by the City Council and let them deal with the rest of it. For that A reason, I think it's a rather simple and straight forward thing. I don't ~think there's that much, substantially everything we heard tonight is irrelevant to that view. As far as the tax thing goes, we're worried about this thing. I think it would be a wonderful addition to the Lake Ann Park and I wish that would happen. Again, we have to address the proposal in front of us. If the City wants to buy it, they'd better start negotiating. Contact the City Council members. Contact the Mayor and tell them that you think that's what they should do and see if they'll start negotiating with these people if they're interested in selling it. That's the only way that can be accomplished. As far as the tax goes, I would imagine that the building of the church has nothing to do with this. It's already owned by a tax exempt organization and therefore is off the tax rolls anyway. Is that right? Hanson: Yes. Emmings: So the fact that of the building of the church isn't going to change that. That already exists. We've got a whole bunch of things like height of the building and other things where right now their set backs are just enormous and I take it that if they ever wanted to sell any part off, whether it was part of it to the City for a park or sell the whole thing. Well no, once the church is built, if they wanted to build other facilities on there or if they wanted to subdivide it for any purpose, all of those setback requirements would then be taken into account in that subdivision. Is that right? e Hanson: Yes. Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 36 e Ernmings: Those are essentially all my comments. The only other thing I'd like to mention is, this one fellow that researches religions got up and said that this is an issue of a group wanting to come in who's values conflict with the Judeo-Christian values of this community and I want to say, since other people have expressed themselves I feel obligated to express myself on that. I don't know much about Eckankar. I don't think any of us do. Maybe that's intentional. Maybe it's not. I don't know but I'm not going to come to the conclusion that they conflict with my values until I know more about them. I'm not afraid of them. I don't care if my son goes to school with their kids. I have a young son here. I would not move out of the community if they moved in. People have said that they're evil. That they're wrong. We've heard Ku Klux Klan. We've heard Nazis. There is just no foundation in fact for any of those comments. It's just absurb to me so, I've had my say and I didn't get any applause. ElIson: I don't think that there's anyway that I can deny this application because we only want Judeo-Christians in Chanhassen. I think the more you want us to treat it special, to treat it morally, the more I feel we have to treat it more equally as we treat all our other applications. We could vote our heart and your heart and say no. It could go to Council. They could vote it all based on this moral issue and this organization has every right to contest the City Council approval, or ~denial I should say. They can sue us. They can bring us into Court and "'say they didn't use the letter of the law to deny us from building here. They used something outside that. They used something that America's not even founded on. You're not allowed to deny based on moral issues. It's the law. We can not use that basis to say no, get out of town. What I want however is more proof to be able to deny it. I want more than opinion that you think it's going to devalue your property values. They've come with as much proof as you can see to prove all the points that it will not harm any of our conditions. What I'm asking you to do, either prior to City Councilor in the interim, is to do some hoclework. You all care. There's no doubt about that but what I'm asking for you, it's not the place of the City to try and build a case anti an applicant. Again, they could sue us and say that we're anti, we're not treating them fairly but I'm asking you to do some homework. If you think it's going to depreciate property values, they've got a guy and a report and a study that says it does nothing, go out and find proof that it does. I'm asking you to, for example, talk to some of these Minneapolis neighbors. Find some facts on houses that were sold prior to them coming in town. After them coming in town. See if you can prove that indeed the property value did go down. There is some concrete legal proof to deny. Talk to solicitations from neighbors. If they're in 260 cities, then they've got 260 plus neighbors. You might be able to find people who said yes, it's hurt our public health. Yes, it's hurt our comfort. I'm asking you to get some more proof than to ask us to deny it based on a moral issue. I don't have to tell the different ways that you can go about doing this ~but I'm basically saying, we can't have the City going and bringing out ..,and putting together a case against an applicant. It goes against everything that's suppose to be fair play. They come to us. We're supposed to look at it like we look at everything else. We don't ask CPT, isn't 200 employees a little bit much. We were questioning that number of Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 37 e employees. We don't do that sort of thing on any other applicants. We can't start questioning them and denying them because we think 20 is a little too many office workers but I'm saying, you know what the conditions are. We've read them. Do some homework and bring some concrete proof to the table and it's real easy for the City Council to deny based on the fact that they can not meet these conditions. Like Steve said, our basis is to look at the legalities. Are they meeting them? Are they not? We can't deny it based on moral issues. I'd also suggest you look into this issue of church. They've already been classified as church according to our definition but maybe we could insinuate from the standpoint of some of their other facilities, this is a really big property. It's got a lot of land. Do some of their other 260 locations have the Bible Camps that we don't allow? The drug treatment centers that we don't allow. Day care centers. We could insinuate that that possibly would be in a long range plan here, therefore it wouldn't go by our definition. There's a lot more that we can do than just sit up here and be worried about our children. We have to fight fire with fire. They're sitting here with proof that they meet everything and I want people to come forth with proof that they're not going to do it and not just opinion. I'm asking you for a called action and I'm saying I agree with you. ...or the Nazi party leaders but legally I can't do anything to prevent that because this world or this Constitution or what have you is telling us we can't use that for a basis of denying something so I'm _turning it back to you people. Prior to it getting to City Council, do a lot more homework. You've got somebody here, Jay I think it is, who has been studying this. He probably has some people's name and knows all these locations and you've got some of it done already. They've got proof that the neighbors say it's fine. I want to see proof that the neighbors say it isn't fine. That's what I'm asking on the other side of the coin. As of now, I think I'd have to approve it. I can't look at the conditions and say they don't meet them. I have to look at the conditions and say yes, you do meet them but I'm not the final approval. It's City Council. I'm making an opinion. A lot of things change between then and now. A lot of things happen quite a number of times on issues by the time it gets there so I'm asking you, just to be a little more prepared. I know that you're concerned enough citizens. I don't think that anyone wouldn't want to do everything in their power and I'm telling you there is something else you can do in your power to help the decision sway your way. Wildermuth: It's interesting to see so many people out on this emotional issue tonight. I think we can count on a higher level of participation in Chanhassen government as a result of it. One of the things that's very vexing about looking at an application like this and looking at our ordinance is that one can't construct a set of ordinances to keep one church out and allow another church in. We've got a set of ordinances. We've got some zoning provisions. The property owner of record in this case meets the intended use. Meets the zoning requirement. They have scrupulously met the conditions for the building codes or ordinances as ~ they are presently codified. I have a concern about 20 employees in a ~ church of 400 people on one hand. On the other hand, I guess it's probably none of my business. I don't think we have a basis on which to deny this application. Denial would have to be based on moral judgments and I don't think a governmental body can be in the business of making Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 38 e moral judgments. They have to deal in facts. The facts are that a conditional use permits appear to be satisfied. Our permit standards appear to be satisfied. I will recommend approval. I guess there's one final editorial comment that I'd like to make and that is, it's very troubling to see such high emotion toward a relatively unpopular church group. The country was founded on freedom on speech and freedom of religion. Pursue the religious beliefs that we have or that we may have. I think the thrust of the emotion here tonight being to deny that. I guess that's dismaying. That's all I have. Conrad: I have a few comments. A while back we did try to encourage a different use for this property when we rezoned it from campus business to some residential areas thinking that that would serve the needs of the community and put maybe that area on the tax roll but as you see, even with that, this is a use that if they meet the letter of the law, they can receive. I have some questions of our attorney specifically. In the conditional use permits, the different points. Number 1, we talk about the word comfort and I don't know, I think the residents get concerned with the general term. I sympathize with them but what does comfort mean? Dave Grannis: It's a very difficult question to answer. Comfort means a lot of different things to a lot of different people but comfort might relate to noise. You might have a comfort level with a certain noise or a ~discomfort level. It might relate to odor. It might relate to different kinds of activities. Traffic might affect comfort. I think you have to look at the use of a particular piece of property to determine whether it's comfort or discomfort. I hope that answers your question. Conrad: I don't know that you're going to give me, obviously these folks are not comfortable with what's going on. Obviously when you look to a condition that they're trying to meet, their opinion woUld be they're not comfortable and therefore Eckankar would not satisfy condition 1. In terms of health, safety and welfare, what are we looking at in health, safety and welfare? Dave Grannis: I think health, again you can go back to environmental kinds of health or you can go back to traffic kinds of things. That's health and safety. General welfare, the well being of the public may be endangered by the particular use that they may put this property to. Well, if they were manufacturing explosives, that might be a general welfare, health, safety kind of an issue. You just have to kind of look at the words, apply the facts and make your determination. Conrad: Another condition, will not be disturbing to the existing neighborhoods. What does disturbing mean? Dave Grannis: Again, that's I guess one of those words that means different things to different people. In a legal sense, I think if it ~interferes with the enjoyment of one's property, maybe it would be ~disturbing to the individual or to the property owner. In this particular case, I would think that you have to...if you wanted to go in that direction, the activities of Eckankar may be disturbing to the surrounding area. Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 39 e Conrad: So if Eckankar had a philosophy of outreach or door to door solicitation, that might be disturbing? Dave Grannis: No. I think you're getting, now you're getting into the religious, moral kind of an issue and this is really a land use issue. That kind of activity is controlled or can be controlled by other city ordinanc~s. Soliciting for example and I'm sure that you've probably dealt with that from time to time in your community. Conrad: Future expansion. They basically would have the right to, I guess the issue of a non-taxpaying resident in Chanhassen bothers me a little bit. I probably think we should be looking at property sizes for a non-taxpaying entity. There are no limits right now so Eckankar certainly has the ability to take up all the acres but I think in the future we may want to take a real serious look at how much property we want to take off the tax roll. Wildermuth: Something like maximum size for a tax exempt? Emmings: Can you do it? Conrad: I think we could. ~Dave Grannis: My only comment is, questionable. Whether or not it's and maybe something that you would I think maybe what you're suggesting is legal but it's certainly another issue want to consider looking into. Conrad: In terms of Eckankar'simpact on surrounding value, somebody could present a case where there would be a negative impact value wise which we would have to, if houses to the north depreciate based on some expert's opinion, that might constitute an economic problem to the community. Wildermuth: But reason to withdraw the conditional use permit? Emmings: You can remember the case with all the airplanes in Minneapolis? They just lost. All those homeowners. Conrad: Do we have the ability to restrict through ordinance an expansion of a use? And I think a lot of the folks here, they're not comfortable with it coming in period but there's also another few comments saying, gee, it's changed over 3 years from the time they were here before. Other than the fact that they have to come back in and see us if they want to expand, are there alternatives to restrict expansion that might be legal to pursue? Dave Grannis: I think your alternative, first of all they would have to come back and I think everybody acknowledges that, if they wanted to ~expand. Between now and that time, if your zoning ordinances change in such a way, expansion may not be allowed. There's nothing to prevent you from doing those types of things but this conditional use, as long as they meet the terms and conditions of a permit should it be granted, and they Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 40 e operate within that, it's perfectly legal to do. Conrad: So it's part of a permit? One, there's no way to restrict future expansion other than through a reapplication process? And future, in terms of zoning, there might be but... Erhart: It's real simple. I'm suggesting we just remove church from allowed use...which is legal. Ellson: After the fact? Erhart: No. We can... Wi Idermuth: Code. It has to meet the definition of the church though in the Erhart: Remove churches as an allowed use in a R-4 district as a conditional use. That would solve it. Conrad: I think just to reinforce what Annette said, legally they have the right to do what they're doing because they do meet our ordinances. I think, maybe there are cases where the City's hands are tied and you think the City should go out and help. I think in some cases we can and City a. Council, you can talk to the Ci ty Council and see what they feel might be "'a course for you. But on the other hand, I think there are some points that may be debateable and they are points that you h;ve to fol16w up on, if they are debateable. I think the property value is one. I think our city staff does not feel it's going to be a negative impact. If you do, I think that's something that you might pursue. I don't know that the City can go out and do that. You may want to talk to your councilmen to find out. They might consider that. That might be one recourse. I think that's something I'd be concerned with. I too would like to know more. I can treat this very clearly because I think they meet the letter of the law. I agree with the folks here that you like to see who's moving into the neighborhood and you get real nervous when you don't know who they are. Obviously they have different beliefs and they're not like mine or yours but it just makes you real nervous and then you think about your kids and I think I know those concerns. It would be, and I don't know if we can ever deal with them rationally, to tell you the truth. I'm not sure that that's possible. It would be nice to know. I think there have been some statements made. It would have been nice, in a different setting than this to go through some of their beliefs. Obviously, the people are not here for a reason and they didn't want to get into that obviously. They feel quite comfort that legally they can get this approved and I think they're right. But the point is, you like to have people moving into the community who you like and know and want to be around and they're not here tonight so that gives me a little bit of a hollow feeling. We have developers coming into town and we say meet with a. the residents and just talk to them. It's still not...for sure but at .., least you can get some sense for what they're doing and I'd prefer to hear some real absolute comments and some real evidence versus some emotional comments because it's tough to react to emotional stuff because it doesn't stand up anyplace. Real research does and I think it's persuasive to the Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 41 e City Council. I don't know enough about Eckankar right now. Nothing's been provided. Three years ago I saw a lot of information and they appeared to be very fine community citizens. That's what I saw 3 years ago and I haven't been persuaded one way or another tonight that they're not. I heard you. I heard the comments and I know you're nervous and I'm a little bit nervous too. I just don't know what my kids are going to be around but I didn't hear something that I could hang on to. I would like to know more about them. I don't think that's an obligation on their part. I wished they would have preferred to do that. I wish they would have been here or set up some forum for us to understand better. My opinion is narrow in terms of what we can do at the Planning Commission and it is to take a look at the 12 conditions and see how they apply. I have some questions about some of them as I expressed but right now I haven't heard anything so I've got a choice to make either to table this and have some of those things brought back or to pass it along to City Council in hopes that maybe the community or the residents who are real interested in the issue, would do a little bit of work and maybe talk to the Ci ty Council on this subj ect. I think we can do some things in the future that might regulate some of these things and maybe even regulate a little bit about what Eckankar does. That's why I wanted to bring some of those up. I've made notes and we will take on some of those tasks to see what we can do. As I said, we did try to switch it from a big property into residential because I think that's what the neighborhood wanted and I _think it's what the community needs. We do have a big problem now in Chanhassen if this goes through, is we don't have enough residential space in higher density. We did program that for higher density because it's closer to downtown and closer to some main highways. I think what this does, it takes it out of that residential use. I think Chanhassen and Don and the City Council have some, and we have to figure out where more land is coming from because there is pressure to develop and I don't think everybody is going to move out because of Eckankar. I think there's just tremendous pressure to grow. Therefore, I can relate to the comments. I don't think that I've been persuaded right now to vote negatively. I think I'm concerned with several issues. I would hope that those issues could be followed up by the residents. I think the biggest issue I have is property value. I do have a concern with some of the words in the ordinance and I just really have, or in our conditions that we have to satisfy. I'm nervous about, I think the operation there could impact the community. I think it could be negative to the community. Don't believe it is but I don't know. I just don't know and I think because it's taking a lot of our potentially taxable land away, I think we have to really know and we may never be satisfied from a religious standpoint. We don't need converts. We don't have to say we believe in the religion but we have to believe that they're not going to negatively impact us. To me what's negative is different from other people. And I don't know if there's any legal justification for what I'm just saying but it's something that I just think when the City takes 174 acres, or whatever the number is, out of use, we've got to be pretty convinced that it's a good neighbor coming in. So I have those comments but I'm not sure that I can vote against it _right now and I think my preference is to send it along to City Council. Hopefully they read our comments. We've got the Mayor is here and other councilmen are here and I think they'll consider this. I think there's only so much we can do on this issue and I think we can do some things in Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 42 e the future but it may not be satisfactory to you right now. So with those comments, I would accept a motion. Erhart: Can I make another comment? Conrad: Sure. Erhart: It disturbs me a little bit. We've had over 560 names on a petition come in here. We've had approximately 200 people come in and take their evening on this issue. The people here I assume mostly are citizens of Chanhassen. We've had myself, Steve and yourself indicate that you're uncomfortable with the information you have. You'd like more. Annette has stated that the people here that came tonight owe us more information. There's a sense that the City is incapable of responding to the money that was spent for this presentation. I just think that's wrong. I think we owe our citizens more than that. I don't think we are incapable. We spent last year, if I look at the City budget, $400,000.00 on consultants and I think we are capable of taking some time and hiring our own consultants so that we get into a fair ballgame and we get this information in front of us so either us or the City Council, and I don't disagree that we should send it on but I think we ought to give a message to the City Council and the staff that we think the City, given the concern we have, and these are our citizens today. Eckankar is not. a They're a landowner but they're not ci ti zens of Chanhassen. I think we ~owe it to them to do our own independent study on this thing. Conrad: What would you study? Erhart: I'd study the appraisal situation. I'd study their history on other sites around the country and find out what kind of a neighbor they are. Conrad: In terms of? Erhart: Excess services required. I already stated property values. As I stated before, I think we ought to take the time to check with the Attorney General's office to review what this is and to try to get a feel of what is this? Is it a pseudo-church? Pseudo-business? Where is the line drawn here? Where is there a line on this? We've seen it, anybody who reads the newspapers has seen it's becoming a hazy line what's a church and what's a business these days with television. I won't say anything further. I really think as a message to the Council is that we ought to spend some time. I think it's owed to these people on what, there's 174 acres and a lot of money involved here, if nothing to do with the moral issues. Conrad: If we hired a consultant to evaluate conditions 1, 4, 6 and 11. Is that within our..., an independent consultant reviewing? ~ Dave Grannis: Yes, it certainly is. I'm not sure that this body has the authority to hire an appraiser. Conrad: We don't but we could make those recommendations. Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 43 e Dave Grannis: You could make a recommendation to the Council to hire a real estate person. Do what other even additional investigation you deem appropriate and the Council would have to decide what they want to do. Conrad: I think that's not a bad idea. I think the question is, do we want to, again, we've got to forward it on so they can appropiate money or not. Any other comments? Wildermuth: I don't know what that's going to solve though Ladd. Our hired gun against their hired gun. Conrad: That's alright. ElIson: It's the proof that we need. I was wondering, if we're putting together a case anti them, doesn't that look a little shakey in the Court? We contacted 260 and we found one. I don't know if it ever got sued or whatever that we would look like we have any ground to stand on. It looks like the City was trying to keep people out so you hired people to give you a report. Dave Grannis: Not necessarily. ElIson: I mean I would love to be able to do that. I was just wondering ~what it would look like. I'm the one who said I want more proof. If we "'can legally do it and a Judge would sit there and say that's fine. It was unbiased and I'm all for it. My first instinct is you're hiring someone to do a study and you're hoping that it will show you what you want. Conrad: I think Jim, they may not find out anything but I think it's kind of city tax dollars and I think the residents, there have been enough that said, although a lot of them aren't from Chanhassen, I wish they were helping pay for some of this but I think there's enough residents that said we're concerned that they'd probably say spend some of our money to do a little bit of research on this and persuade us that we're not going to have our property values aren't going to go down. I think that's real valid. I think that's real valid to use city money that way yet I don't make that decision. Is there a motion? Emmings: I'll move that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Conditional Use Permit #89-1 for Eckankar Church subject to plans and descriptive packet stamped "Received January 23, 1989" with the conditions set forth in the staff report with the additional conditions identified by Tim from page 4, that's number 7, 8, 9 and 10 of Gary Warren's report. With the additional condition, again brought up by Tim that there would be no outdoor speaker system connected with the construction. Then I don't recall, I wrote down nutrient, assessment of the nutrient impact on Lake Riley. Was that ever performed? e Erhart: Emmings: motion. That's one of Gary's. Okay, that's one of Gary's so forget that one. That's my Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 44 e ElIson: I'll second it. Emmings: If I can discuss my own motion right off the bat. I agree that the City Council should look at the issue of impact on property since it was raised by as many people as it was that live right near by. To take a look at that issue so they're comfortable. That is a troublesome thing. I didn't put it in my motion. I think it should go maybe as a separate recommendation because I think maybe the scope of what Tim wants investigated and the scope of what I'd want looked into might be different and maybe we could all express our own ideas about what the scope of any further investigation might be and just pass that off as comments to the City Council. That was my note on that. Conrad: What do you think Tim? Erhart: I think I already made my comments of what I think I'd like to have investigated. Perhaps the other members would like to expand on it. Conrad: But in terms of the motion, by the procedure of voting on this separately and then making a recommendation separately from the motion? Erhar t : Sure. _conrad: Any other discussion? ElIson: I think we already covered the property values. I don't think we should go through a lot of them. The other one that I suggested earlier was the definition of church. Maybe this is the only one of the 259 out there that doesn't have a Bible Camp associated with it. By looking at the land they're buying, maybe they are thinking that down the road so I think we should also be looking at how the other locations apply to our definition of church. Long range. Short range. Things like that too as well as the property value and comfort level and the other ones we've already discussed. Erhart: Ladd, in response to your question, what I would like to see the sequence is to have, table the motion and have the study done. The other way's fine too. I'll just vote against it. Emmings moved, ElIson seconded that the Planning Commission recommend approval of Conditional Use Permit 189-1 for Eckankar Church subject to the plans and descriptive packet stamped "Received January 23, 1989" with the following conditions: 1. Add trees to the center landscape islands with parking lot. 2. Curb the parking lot edge where head in stalls are shown, and the landscape islands at the end of the service drive. e 3. Entrance sign is not to be illuminated. 4. Lighting poles reduced to 15' - 18' in height. Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 45 e 10. 11. e 12. 13. 14. 15. 16. 17. 18. 19. e 20. 5. Roof material to have matte finish and not glare. 6. Exterior of building must not be illuminated. 7. The nose of the proposed island cannot extend into the right-of-way of CSAH 17. The right-of-way line is 50 feet from the roadway centerline. The County would prefer that the entrance design be similar to the design of the entrance on the east side of CSAH 17. 8. A plan must be presented showing the proposed road grade and cross section. The plan should identify the need for the large radius on the proposed entrance. It is the preference of the County to have the radius less than 50 feet. 9. Turn lanes will be required on the entrance. The entrance application should include the turn lane design details. The applicant be required to submit construction plans and specifications for the installation of the watermain and sanitary sewer lines for approval by the City Engineer. Runoff calculations be submitted to confirm that the pre-development runoff rate criteria of the watershed District and the City are being complied with. A drainage easement be dedicated to the City in accordance with the attached legal description and sketch to accommodate storm water runoff. Necessary permits from the County and Watershed District are obtained and complied with prior to construction. A roadway cross-section shall be submitted for review along with the skimmer detail plan as discussed in the EAW for the parking lot area. The applicant shall use Type III erosion control throughout the site. Concrete barrier curbing be included on the entrance roadway and parking perimeters. The applicant address the nutrient loading impacts to Riley Lake. The applicant address the concerns of the County Engineer as presented in the February 15, 1989 correspondence. The applicant cooperate with the City in the future siting of a frontage road paralleling TH 5. There shall be no outside speaker system on the site. All voted in favor except Erhart who opposed and the motion carried with a vote of 4 to 1. Planning Commission Meeting March 1, 1989 - Page 46 - Erhart: For the record, I would like to see it tabled until we had further information. Conrad: And then maybe I'll start the process in terms of what, we also recommend, we've got to make a motion so I can't do it. Ernmings: Do we have to make a motion or can we just do it as... Conrad: I'll preface it. We make a recommendation to the City Council. Because we're taking such a large parcel of land from Chanhassen and putting it in a non-tax generating mode, that we feel it's important to be comfortable with several issues in regard to the Eckankar application. That we'd like to have the City Council consider hiring an independent consultant to review Eckankar's impact on property values, the additional services that they may need, the status that Eckankar has as a church and it's application to conditions 1, 4, 6 and 11, our requirements for conditional use permit. Anything else? Emmings: I concur with that recommendation. Conrad: Any contrary opinions? This item will go to City Council April 10th. Thank you for corning in. It's fun to see the chambers filled ~occasionallY even if it's not always a pleasant thing we're talking about but I'd invite you to stay on the issue and talk to your councilmen and watch it as it goes through the City Council. Thank you for attending. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Batzli moved, Ellson seconded to approve the Minutes of the Planning Commission meeting dated February 15, 1989 as presented. All voted in favor except Erhart who abstained and the motion carried. Batzli moved, Emmings seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The meeting was adjourned at 11:30 p.m.. Submitted by Steve Hanson Planning Director prepared by Nann Opheim e