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PRC 2006 04 25 CHANHASSEN PARK AND RECREA TION COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING APRIL 25, 2006 Acting Chair Scharfenberg called the meeting to order at 7:30 p.m. MEMBERS PRESENT: Jack Spizale, Jeff Daniel, Anne Murphy, Steve Scharfenberg, and Paula Atkins. Tom Kelly arrived late to the meeting. MEMBERS ABSENT: Glenn Stolar STAFF PRESENT: Todd Hoffman, Park and Rec Director; and Jerry Ruegemer, Recreation Superintendent APPROVAL OF AGENDA: Murphy moved, Spizale seconded to approve the agenda amended to include discussion of the skate park under administrative presentations. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 5 to O. PUBLIC ANNOUNCEMENTS: Hoffman: Arbor Day celebrations are Saturday, May ih I believe the date is. That's a Saturday in May. It will be taking place right here. If you have lots of groups, Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, neighborhood groups coming down to pick up trash at a variety of the locations. Trees for sale. They made the presentations last night at the council meeting for the poster winners, so look for those items in the paper. If you want to help out, come on down. The contact here at the city is Jill Sinclair. Scharfenberg: Any other announcements? We'll move on. VISITOR PRESENTATIONS: None. APPROVAL OF MINUTES: Murphy moved, Atkins seconded to approve the verbatim and summary minutes of the Park and Recreation Commission dated March 28, 2006 as presented. APPOINTMENT OF ANNE MURPHY AND JEFF DANIEL TO THREE YEAR COMMISSION TERMS. Scharfenberg: Do we have to do anything Todd specifically with these appointments? Hoffman: Just recognize that they've been reappointed and appointed. Scharfenberg: And we welcome Jeff to the commission. His first meeting tonight. Welcome and feel free to join in at any time. Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 Daniel: I definitely will, thank you very much. Scharfenberg: Alright. Daniel: So appreciate and looking forward to it. Scharfenberg: Good. And Anne, good to see you back. Murphy: Thank you. Glad to be back. Hoffman: Two terms. So there are term limits now on our commission so you can serve up to 2 terms and then you're out so make the best of it. REVIEW PARK & TRAIL REQUIREMENTS FOR THE PRESERVE. 1630 LYMAN BOULEVARD. A 155 SINGLE FAMILY SUBDIVISION. APPLICANT THE PEMTOM LAND COMPANY AND GAYLE AND LOIS DEGLER. Hoffman: Thank you Chair Scharfenberg and members of the commission. Apologize the overhead went out last night so we'll use a handout that you have in the packet and then both the applicants and myself will step forward and utilize the board to run you through the development. The property or the application called the Preserve is located in the 2005 MUSA area. I think all of you are probably familiar with this area. Ifnot, labeled as the 2005 MUSA, maybe the AUAR study area. Maybe the farm field south of Lyman Boulevard. Maybe the Degler Farm. All the things would be accurate. This is actually the Gayle and Lois Farm. Family farm. Gayle's father and mother owned the farm to the west which would be Dean and Lois Degler. This is the fourth development that's been proposed in this particular area. On the front page of the report it talks about the summary of the request. The request being a PUD or a planned unit development and site plan approval to build 155 single family homes. With a conditional use permit for developing within the Bluff Creek Overlay District, as well as grading within the flood plain. The next graphic shows part of the AU AR study indicating that the number of units approved under the AUAR, or the AUAR assumption is 1,584 homes were contemplated or approved that area. If you flip to page 2, the next chart indicates the 4 different proposals that we're working with. I'll point them out on the overhead. Top one, Liberty at Bluff Creek is the only one with final approval. It's currently under construction. The grading has commenced if you've noticed to the south on Audubon Road. And has 90 gross acres and then 444 units townhome units in that particular area. As to neighborhood amenities, association playground and then an association pool. Some green space that has been preserved as a part of the Bluff Creek Overlay District. Has a trail connection down to the Bluff Creek trail on the north side, and then it also has some internal trails to loop around to the neighborhood amenities. Liberty at Creekside and it was reviewed by the council and tabled last night but it is generally located in a little bit of an isolated location at the center or south central part of the MUSA region. 146 units. Pioneer Pass, last night was approved by the council first go around and not final plat. It has 81 single family homes. It also has the park that you took at look at and approved, or recommended as a public park. 4.72 acres in this location. The Liberty at Creekside is also proposing about a half acre totlot area at that location. And then the application we're looking at tonight, again gross acres, 80 acres. Net acres 31.33 and 155 units. Generally 2 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 situated north and south on an 80 acre parcel. On this map what you're seeing is again a private association area. Staff is also proposing that these 5 lots be deleted from the plat and that area be used for a combination of uses. Storm water pond, a trail head, a view shed into the area. The applicant will talk about what they feel is that would create a hardship on their development, or their subdivision application this evening so they'll discuss that and discuss that issue with you. And then the trail is really the premiere aspect of the entire Bluff Creek area, and this particular application includes a... section of the trail. Bridge. It will have an overpass. Over the top of the creek. And then as you move north, there will eventually be an underpass under Lyman Boulevard at this location and when Lyman Boulevard is upgraded. Some questions on the layout. Scharfenberg: No park proposed in the Preserve area, correct? Hoffman: In here? Yes. An association amenity right here. Scharfenberg: Right. Hoffman: And then this would be, as staff had proposed it a trail head for people to park and have access to the Bluff Creek trail system. And then some ponding and just kind of a view shed as you come down Audubon to look into the Bluff Creek area. But not a public park. The comprehensive plan talks about parks and open space. I'm not going to go through all the, this is pulled directly out of the comp plan. Parks are a good thing. Open space is a good thing. Parks and open space acquisition and regulation. We obtain land for parks through a couple of different methods. Acquisition and regulation. Acquisition refers to obtaining land through easements, condemnation, donation or purchase. And then we also obtain land through zoning or the subdivision ordinance where we can take approximately up to 10% of the land. It varies depending on the density of the development, and our ordinance says 1 acre per every 75 people. So that's what we based our park acquisition plans off of. The proposed park and open space acquisition in 2005, I've gone over them on the board. But they're also on a chart on page 3, and you look in public park, we talk about the 4.72 acres at Pioneer Pass. The Preserve with the 5 lots would be 2 acres plus or minus. The total of 6.72 in public park. Private park would be over 2 acres. They've added a couple of lots here and so it would be 2 liz, maybe 3 acres in the private association type park. But then the thing that you really need to take notice of is the wetland open space. You have 115 acres. It's a total of 3 5% of the site and that is all the green and you have this map in the back of your packet, if you want to look at it at your desk. So it's the Bluff Creek Overlay which really was designed to save those natural features within the corridor. Granted it's not an active park. We talk about in the report there's a high school is that is proposed north of here. Will be voted on most likely in November, so there's access via the trail system and the underpass at Lyman for future, let's say you're going to move in and you're looking for a tennis court or you're looking for a very large athletic field to practice some baseball or football with your children over the weekend. You can have direct access from these neighborhoods by bike or by walking to that future high school if it' s something that is approved. So there are a lot of features here. There is some may say a lack of real distinct neighborhood parks, with the exception of the one to the south. And land cost has something to do with that. The amount of open space in the Bluff Creek area has something to do with that. You just can't continue to consume land for parks and open space. You need to leave some of it for 3 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 development as well. So those are the park and open. Let's talk specifically about the Preserve. We've been working with the applicant for a number of months and Outlot A, Outlot Land Outlot N are proposed to be preserved in public ownership. Again that's for the Bluff Creek Overlay. A total of34 acres on this property. We were talking before the meeting that you pay for that land but then you need to, you know you're not using it except for open space designation and then it just about doubles the price of the remaining land that is potentially used for development. Outlot H, as I noted was currently shown as a single lot. The applicant has agreed to combine that with Lots 1 and 2, Block 11 into recreational space to enhance the value to the neighborhood. So as you drive through the neighborhood, to and from your home, you have a nice, commons area in the center where you could, they're proposing a playground there so for 15-20 minutes or half hour in the evening or on the weekend you can meet some of your neighbors there with young children. Talk about what's going on in the community. Become a neighborhood and let your kids play in the playground. And then you also have some space if you wanted to play some pick up catch games or something like that. There's enough space in there for those type of uses. And the applicant has expressed a willingness to accept that recommendation. Some places like on this map it's shown in all the pink. Other places it's shown as a single lot with still the two residential lots on it so don't be confused by that. Staff is also recommending again that Lots 1 through 5, Block 1 be eliminated from the plat. It's that property situated adjacent to Lyman, so you've got a sanitary sewer lift station across the road. A future industrial park development connected to it. It's physically isolated which some say is good. Some say would not be good for a residential neighborhood, but again staff, and that includes Community Development Director Kate Aanenson and our City Engineer, Paul Oehme and myself, we're recommending that those be acquired as public open space and again for a variety of uses. We don't underestimate view corridors in the community. Highway 5 has been very successful in preserving view corridors into open space. That's one of the values that our community holds is as you drive around, you can see into these places. They're not, the views are not blocked. That's one of the reasons we acquired the lot just to the north of that little lift station. That's a 4 acre parcel that was purchased in a past open space referendum to allow that view to the north, that goes up to the new high school. As a ponding location for future road improvements, you're probably all familiar with the south half of Audubon is not upgraded as of yet. The last time the north half was upgraded, council said you know it's still a rural road and it still needs to be upgraded now some 15 years later, and there'll need to be additional ponding to take the water off of that road from the curb and gutter down into a ponding area so this could be one location for that ponding. And then also for a trail head, the Bluff Creek corridor, 4 mile trail. 4 plus miles of trail throughout there going north and south, will be a regional and more a local draw so people living off the corridor could drive to this location. Park at a trail head. Look at a map kiosk and decide if they want to go north or south, and then take off on a bike trip, either to Chaska to the south LRT or they could go north to Minnewashta Regional Park so they would have a trail head in the center. Talking about trails, or continuing that conversation. What we ask is that the applicant work on the design, engineering, the construction of the trail as a part of their development. It makes it a more fluid process, and then we as a city and as a community pay for the construction costs and materials, and they will absorb the cost for engineering, construction as a part of their proposal. This practice has been done up and down the Bluff Creek corridor and other areas throughout the city, and has worked really well for the community. And then the applicant is also responsible to build a connector trails. Obviously when you have this beautiful resource right next to your neighborhood, you want to connect 4 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 people to it and so they're currently showing two connectors, and we just missed a third. The third is really north... We have one on the north coming through this area. One to the center. We're actually showing two on here. I think it's the one at this location because of some grade concerns in the center one. But then we need to go with this third one coming down here so it can connect out to the street, actually the end of this street and then a connection up to the north. To get people from the neighborhood down into the Bluff Creek trail corridor. So the recommendations that we are giving the commission to consider, and to form some sort of a recommendation to City Council are, one. The payment of full park dedication fees at a rate in force at the time of the final plat. And then a note to that, that a percentage of those fees may be dedicated, granted back to the applicant in the event that we do acquire the five lots on the north side of the development. The northwest side of the development. Two, that the applicant shall provide all design, engineering, construction and testing services required in the Bluff Creek trail. All construction documents shall be delivered to the park director and the city engineer for approval prior to the initiation of each phase of the construction. It may be built in a single phase. It may be built in multiple phases. The trail shall be 10 feet wide, surfaced with bituminous material and constructed to meet all city specifications. The applicant shall be reimbursed for the actual cost of the construction materials for Bluff Creek, and that includes the bridge and the other elements that go along with that bridge. And then this reimbursement payment shall be made upon completion and acceptance of the trail and receipt of an invoice from the applicant documenting those costs. Three, that Outlot H be enlarged by the two lots. Two additional lots. Lots 1 and Lot 2, Block 11. And that the resulting property be utilized as a private association operated open space and recreational sites. And then finally that Outlots A, B, Land H, the Bluff Creek open space area be conveyed to the city as public property by warranty deed. And I'll be happy to answer any questions that you have for staff. And then would ask that the commission give the applicants a chance to speak as well. Scharfenberg: Okay. Jack, any questions for Todd? Spizale: I've got one. Why are some of these marked public streets and private streets? Brian Sullivan: Hi, I'm Brian Sullivan with Ryland Homes. The development, you almost have to kind of back up quite a ways to kind of get to the answer of that but as we were working through the site planning and looking at the Degler property, and looking at different ways of developing it. We looked at coming in here with townhouse type development and we looked at traditional single family type of development, and as we're studying the marketplace and trying to determine what was the best fit for this piece of property, and looking at the Bluff Creek Overlay zone and the wetlands that are on the property and all, kind of all these issues kind of combined together. We came up with this concept that we've been working on in some of other communities which is a little bit smaller, little bit smaller lot that still has all the amenities that people are looking for so we had this whole issue with the public right now, they still want 3 car garage but they don't necessarily want a large yard with it and as we worked in other communities, you start to look at what a 3 car garage does and what does the streetscape as you're driving through a community and what you'll see is all garages, a lot of garage doors and not much front of the house here so what we worked, and been working on is this concept of a cannon stalled garage so we have a 3 car garage but one of the garage stalls is actually behind one of the other cars so throughout most the development here you'll see only 2 garage doors 5 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 instead of3 garage doors. So that was one of the kind of concepts that we're working on here. And then we're also playing with this idea of clustering the development and clustering has to do with this whole idea of trying to pull things away from the creek as much as possible. And one of the ways to help minimize the size of the development and minimize the amount of impacts under the creek as to cluster the homes, which is a little bit smaller lots that we're proposing, and also look at what we can do in the right-of-way and so working with the city staffwe determined where the public streets need to be and the right-of-way width that would have all the kind of traditional sidewalks and traditional setbacks from the street that the city wants and something that the city can maintain. Snowplows can go through easily and all that kind of stuff so, there's some public streets throughout the development there that are labeled as public. But then as we're working through parts of the, we developed these kind ofloops off the public street that are private streets. They're still the same width as the public street. They're the same width that they're asking for that meets the city standards for width of the street, but we have narrowed that right-of-way width down. Instead of being I think it's 60 feet, it's actually 42 or 41 feet, so those streets are a private street. They're still within the, and it's a private easement that goes over the top of it as a private right-of-way but, and they're maintained by the Homeowners Association but the streets private streets instead of public streets and they're maintained by the homeowners association. So kind of a long winded answer as to how we got there but it has to do with trying to pull back from the Bluff Creek overlay zone as much as possible. And trying to address some of the needs of the buying public and trying to provide a nice nitch within the larger neighborhoods here as to house style that's, that provides something a little bit different than what the larger lots on the Sever Peterson property and the stuff that Town and Country's doing, the multi family stuff there so. That's how we kind of got to this. Spizale: So the public streets are going to have sidewalks? Brian Sullivan: Yes. All the streets have sidewalks. Have sidewalks along side. Spizale: The private ones too? Brian Sullivan: Yes. Spizale: Okay. Brian Sullivan: And that was part of. . . too is to make sure it's a very walkable neighborhood and the sidewalks all connect to the trails, the private trails that lead down to the Bluff Creek trail and all that so. Murphy: Sorry to interrupt. Did you say sidewalks on one side or both sides? Brian Sullivan: I think they're on one side, yeah. The main public street might have sidewalks on both sides but. Hoffman: It does. 6 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 Brian Sullivan: Yeah. There's some recommendations by city staff to, some of the streets with sidewalks on both sides. They said remove some of these and to be honest with you I'm not sure why that's being done but they had some engineering reasons for that. To remove some of them. Hoffman: Planning staff is recommending sidewalks on one side of the public streets. Or private, excuse me. Scharfenberg: Jack, any other questions? Spizale: No. Scharfenberg: Jeff. Daniel: Todd, I do have one question. The trail coming down from, that's on Audubon right now. That stops off at I think Valley Creek North or South. Right at that point. Is that going to be extended all the way down to? Hoffman: It will. When Audubon is upgraded. Daniel: Okay. So it is going to be. Alright. And with regards to some of the changes that we're recommending as far as with the, the lots that are off The Preserve right here. I'm just kind of thinking things out as far as how that might have an impact on it obviously and so, I think that's about it. All I have. Scharfenberg: Anne. Murphy: Just a question on the trail connections and the trail heads. Are those the responsibility of the city or the? Hoffman: The trail head would be built by the city. The trail connectors, which are private coming out of the development, are the responsibility of the applicant. And then the public trail, which is down in the creek corridor, will be built by the applicant but we will reimburse them for the material cost. Murphy: So that's included, the trail connector's included in this recommendation? I just didn't see trail connector anywhere so. Hoffman: Yeah, they can use those as trail connectors. Murphy: Okay. Scharfenberg: Paula. Atkins: Todd, can you show me on that map where the high school would be built? The general. 7 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 Scharfenberg: Way up in that left hand corner. Atkins: That's what I thought. Hoffman: Starting at this corner and, and the first debate will be whether or not this intersection will turn into a full intersection or not. Or take people straight into the high school site right here. Daniel: Todd, where's the entrance going to be? At least theoretically. Is it going to be at the T of Lyman there or is it going to be kind of where that barn is right now? Hoffman: Yeah, maybe one here. There might be one up farther. .. It would have two access points at a minimum onto Lyman. Scharfenberg: Tom, any questions? Kelly: So it's the city's responsibility for all plowing? Hoffman: The creek, comprehensive trail in the creek is the other one would not be. There'd be plows as part of the private, and then the neighborhood, the private drives. Trails. Scharfenberg: And would the applicant, do they have any? Go ahead. Dan Cook: I've had a cold for the last couple of weeks so I'll keep this relatively brief. My name is Dan Cook with Pemtom and I think Chanhassen has a great deal to be proud of with the parks and foresight of this beautiful Bluff Creek Overlay District. Todd and I talked today and I think we both agreed that this is going to be a spectacular amenity to the community. And both Pemtom and Ryland are very proud to be associated with this project and bring this vision to a reality. One thing that, and I'll keep this relatively short and then if you have any design questions or things like that, I can... but we really had a challenge, and Todd brought this up briefly and essentially the level of cost increased in assessments to this Preserve project since November, 2005, which is about 6 months has gone up dramatically. And the projected assessments of record for the new 212 and MUSA assessment increased from $1,486,879 to $1,782,054 just over that period of time so that totals almost $295,175, which is a pretty big upcharge. Along with that the storm water management ponding fees increased from $158,098 to $242,760, so that went up about $84,662, which again was a pretty big increase. And then along with that, the park dedication fees increased from $4,500 to $5,800 per lot, totally $899,000, and that's paid at the recording of the final plat. So that increase was again another $211,500. So with these three, just these three line items, and hopefully you know who knows what the future brings but you never know, that increased the project in those 6 months over $581,340, which brings an increase of about 40%. And you know we really feel that the project is going to be really compromised by losing you know 5 lots, valuable lots. They're narrow walkout, south exposure lots off of Lyman, and we talked about that a little bit today. But I guess what we'd like to pledge is we really worked hard with the city and we really want to thank the staff for all the progress that we've made on this project, and we realize, as everyone 8 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 does, this has really been a moving target for everybody. Todd and I talked about this today and we'd like to solve you know these economic issues together and what we're faced regarding this project. I don't know if.. .we talked today and Todd's communication with the rest of the staff regarding this. That's not a surprise to anybody. Scharfenberg: Tom, any questions for Dan? Kelly: Not right now, no. Scharfenberg: Okay, Paula. Atkins: The lots in question are the ones right against Lyman? On both sides of that street or just one side? Dan Cook: Those are these 5 lots that. Daniel: In the yellow up there, in the corner. You'll see them. Hoffman: Just on one side. The east side of that. Dan Cook: Eventually we kind ofreconfigured those lots several times with some of the staffs input on it to just make it better. .. This is guided industrial right now but they are looking at the possibility for residential. Now whether or not that comes to pass, we don't know but we also, regardless of what happens we feel that this access is going to be valuable to some degree to the people.. . regardless of what happens to this. Ideally from our standpoint, just because of the topography of the land, we feel it would be an asset I think to possibly blend some residential here and some industrial, but I think a lot of those decisions are going to be dependent upon what happens to the Dorsey and Fox piece because they're still kind of going through the process. Kelly: If you could come back to me. Scharfenberg: Yeah. Kelly: I apologize. So your proposal is not to have that connector right there? Dan Cook: Yeah, we want this here. I mean we are asking for this, along with there's 5 lots right in here as well. Hoffman: If the lots stay, the trail would just go around them. Dan Cook: And we talked about that. I mean maybe there's a way that you know smaller they can compromise but I guess we're just kind of in the process of trying to get that to all work for everybody. Scharfenberg: Dan why, you said that the project would be compromised without those 5 lots. Why would it be compromised? 9 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 Dan Cook: Just because of the economics of it. I mean right now we absorb it. Ryland Homes would absorb a portion of it. The City would absorb a portion of it. The bottom line is, ultimately it gets down to the consumer. The end user and I think that that's one thing that I think we all have to kind of look out for. By losing those lots we have an attached value on those... based on the other costs that we've already kind of incurred in a short period. And again, I don't think it was anybody's fault. It was just something that happened. It really is. . . Daniel: Dan is the, from what I understand of the development, is the average price of the home, I guess cumulative around $400,000? $425? Dan Cook: Yeah, I think it's going to depend upon what the people put into it. They're going to be walkout. A lot of them are going to be walkouts. I think some of the ones that are on the bluff, you can finish those lower levels. I think those are going to be, you know those can. . . The nice thing about this project thought is even though it has a 2 car garage that faces the street, it's a tandem so there's an extra garage so even people with snowmobiles or storage or whatever, they've got the ability to do that. So it's kind, it is. It's a unique product right now. ... anyone other than... is doing a project similar to this down in Savage... So this is something that is, you know I think with the baby boomers, some of them having a home here maybe. They want to get rid of their bigger houses. Maybe have something smaller. They don't want to live in attached type housing. They want detached housing. I think that fits that market real well. And then first time home buyers, I think empty nesters to some degree. People are looking for more of a low maintenance lifestyle. People that you know. . . Daniel: As I look at the 5 lots here in comparison to some of the other sizes, oflots, and based off their isolation and the view that they have, I assume they're going to be exponentially that much more expensive, as well, not only the lot but also the home that's on there? Dan Cook: Yeah. You know that's hard to say. Like I say, this has been reconfigured now. . . reconfigured lots but there's still 5 lots there. You know one negative thing is there's a lift station there, as Todd pointed that out, and we kind of go back and forth. If! were to buy a place here, I'd really kind of like this because I like privacy and just having a few homes there. I suppose if you had children who wanted to play with other kids and things, you'd maybe want... I think there's a strong market for that just because they're south facing and they're walkout lots so... Scharfenberg: Anne, you have any questions? Murphy: For those 5 lots, you're saying that you need the land? It's not an issue where you talked about any park dedication fees for those lots or, in lieu of the land itself. Dan Cook: Well I think that this conversation really has to be kind of continued with staff and you know hopefully come to some kind of. . . and we talked about yesterday and I talked about with Kate... Hopefully we'll get it solved right... part of the project economically and it's really been like a moving target for the city as well as us to try to make everything. . . 10 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 Daniel: Actually, I mean based off of what's gone on, and I'm strictly making assumptions and mind thought process. Looking at the 5 lots and in comparison to what probably would be going in there as far as the hallmark, again what you guys make because I think that will be about a year from now. Housing prices will go up accordingly. If! do the math, that's let's say if they're half a million dollars, even $600,000 homes, it's about $3 million dollars impact to the overall cost of the project. Would that be a good statement, as far as just revenue? Not necessarily in income but. Dan Cook: Well I think yeah... but if we, depending on what happens with those lots, that would be maybe the retail type of a thing. I guess what we'd like to do is end up with some kind of a compromise and just look at it as a reality. What are we really losing and what's the city going to gain there? The other thing that's notable I guess is that this project's going to be phased in three phases, and anticipate that somewhere in this area will be the first phase. Second phase and then this will be the following phase, and our park dedication fees are all paid up front so those will be paid in June or July... So that's $900,000 in park dedication fees that we're paying... that we theoretically won't be using for 3 years because I think Brian's staff has kind of looked at their absorption rate and how long it's going to take to work through this project in scope. I guess to answer you question, the... sit down and work with staff and get Ryland and everybody's input... Daniel: My only concern would be on this particular project, if there were single homes there, kind of similar to what I see on Kerber Boulevard and Lake Lucy Road. Dan Cook: They'd be the same as these homes that you see here... Daniel: Sure, but you know basically when you have a stand alone development, and this is really what it's going to be when you're separated from the main community like that, and there's one house that McDonald Construction has and it's been for sale for almost a year and a half now, so if you're, I see two things that are very similar in that situation. Number one, you're on a main thorough way. Lyman's very much similar to how, as far as access to the city as Powers is, with a 50 miles an hour zone. Number two is that you are leading up to a potentially, and I don't know Todd, is there going to be another access point off of? Hoffman: Audubon. Daniel: Audubon. So there'll be two access points. So basically, you know as far as commercial traffic going through there, depending upon what type of industry goes in, so those would be my two concerns. Why, from your perspective I guess I'd take a look at what's, what other developments around the city there and where they're having problems moving product based off it kind of being isolated because that McDonald Construction project, and I might be wrong but if you noticed, it's not moving, and that's because of the traffic. And it might have to do with the design of the home. The lay of the lots. I'm sure there's other factors. Dan Cook: You know it's kind of a. .that' s a question that personally I wouldn't have a problem with it just because I like the privacy and I think just the venue of these lots, and I don't know the McDonald lots that you're talking about but these are going to be spectacular... 11 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 Daniel: Sure. Yeah, McDonald's stare at Powers or a back yard. Dan Cook: ... it' s not bad so. Scharfenberg: Jack, any questions? Spizale: No questions. Kelly: Could I ask one more about the... If you did have the lots, the trail would just come right through? Right through that area but because of the lots you're kind of forcing the trail to kind of run parallel with the lots around, and taking a cut, is that the issue in terms of how these 5 lots and the trail? Hoffman: Yeah, the trail would look different under each scenario. The function would be the same. Depending on how, if you take 5 lots out and you build a trail head and a pond, it depends on where the appropriate location for the pond. Appropriate location for the trail head and then how the trail would wind through there. Just to give you a little bit more information on this touch down point. What's likely to happen is that the trail will cross. This is shown on this red line on that map. On the underpass. Then it will go across street grade, and then like it's shown on here, it can actually come in front and go through the lot. It could go down to the creek and around. That will be a street crossing right here at this location so. The final design... Kelly: You want to get something to link up with the trail that dead ends right at. Hoffman: Audubon. Kelly: Which is a great trail. You take that's one of the nicer trails in the city. I think. Daniel: Dan in terms of the amenities, the open space that you've got, is it just the totlot? Is there going to be a pool included in there? Brian Sullivan: The private park area would just have a totlot for now. There's a gazebo being proposed there also. And we've left the rest of the area open for active play. Pick up games or tossing the ball around, that type of thing is what's being proposed there now. Daniel: So there is some open space in addition to the totlot? Brian Sullivan: Yes there is. Daniel: Okay. Scharfenberg: Any other questions? Any discussion? We have a motion to accept staff s recommendation with respect to. Brian Sullivan: Can I interrupt? 12 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 Scharfenberg: Yeah, go ahead. Brian Sullivan: Just one question about park dedication fees. Whether that could be, whether it could be paid for when we pull building permits instead of at the, when we submit the final plat. I don't know if that's a policy issue or not. Changing the recommendations that I'd like to request, or to consider anyway. Hoffman: The ordinance requires it at time of final plat. In the past the City has, the ordinance had allowed payment of one-third at time of plat and then two-third, the remaining two-third at the time of building permit. But it was an administrative nightmare. It has not, did not follow that practice for a half a dozen years now and it continues to be an administrative nightmare as we get rid of those lots that we are still collecting two-thirds of park dedication fees, which change on an annual basis and so right now we have about 85 different rates for park fees that we're trying to weed out and get rid of so the answer is, from staff s perspective is no, I don't think the council would approve that. It's our current ordinance that it's collected at the time of final plat. Scharfenberg: Does that answer your question? Brian Sullivan: Not the right way. Scharfenberg: Alright. Do I have a motion with respect to staff s recommendation for the Preserve PUD? Hoffman: Back to the fees, the one bonus is then they don't pay the increases for the next 2 years so that's the off setting. Scharfenberg: We need a motion. Murphy: Motion to approve staffs recommendation for the Preserve PUD. Scharfenberg: Do I have a second? Atkins: I'll second. Scharfenberg: Any further discussion? Murphy moved, Atkins seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend the City Council require the following conditions of approval concerning parks and trails for the Preserve PUD: 1. The payment of full park dedication fees at the rate in force upon final plat approval in lieu of parkland dedication. Note: A percentage of park fees may be credited as a portion of any future compensation for the acquisition of developable lands in the area currently depicted as Lot 1. 13 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 2. The applicant shall provide all design, engineering, construction and testing services required of the "Bluff Creek Trail". All construction documents shall be delivered to the Park and Recreation Director and City Engineer for approval prior to the initiation of each phase of construction. The trail shall be 1 0 feet in width, surfaced with bituminous material and constructed to meet all city specifications. The applicant shall be reimbursed for the actual cost of construction materials for the Bluff Creek Trail. This reimbursement payment shall be made upon completion and acceptance of the trail and receipt of an invoice documenting the actual costs for the construction materials utilized in it's construction. 3. Outlot H be enlarged through the addition of the land area currently depicted as Lots 1 and 2, Block 11. The resulting property to be utilized as a private association operated recreational and open space site. 4. Outlots A, B, Land H be conveyed to the city as public property by warranty deed. All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to o. Scharfenberg: Thank you for, Pemtom for coming and addressing our questions and hopefully you will continue to work with staff and iron out all those issues. Dan Cook; Thank you very much. Scharfenberg: You bet. RECREA TION PROGRAM REPORTS: 2006 EASTER EGG CANDY HUNT. Ruegemer: Thank you Steve. Rest of the commission, good evening. Just wanted to go through kind of an evaluation of the Easter Egg Candy Hunt that happened on Saturday, April 15th out at the Recreation Center. This was the first year that we did have an admission fee for that of $3.00. Our total kids registered was 283. 177 pre-registered and 106 the day of registrations for a total of283, which is down roughly oh about 115-120 roughly. We didn't really have any hard numbers from the past but those were just kind of estimates for that so they were down I think a little bit. And was that associated with the fee? Was it a nice weekend and people did other things? It's kind of the question of the day. It was a beautiful day out. Held the candy hunt outside after the performance by the Splatter Sisters and everybody certainly walked away with a bag full of candy, which was fun to see the kids having fun out there. The festivities you know take place within the recreation center, as far as the coloring contest. The performance by the Splatter Sisters itself was in the gym, so the rec center really does provide really an ideal venue for that. Has a lot of activity in room out there. It's nice having the amenities outside to host the candy hunt, which was a fun event. The Key Club members again did help out with setting up and assisting with the coloring contest area. They dressed up in bunny costumes, which is good so then I didn't have to do that so, which was nice to see those young legs hopping around. The 14 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 kids always enjoy getting some pictures and stuff with that as well. We also did, if those of the commissioners that were at the Daddy Daughter Date Night, the trellis that was there, we did decorate that up and have the bunnies take pictures with the kids at that area too to kind of have something a little new for that so that was kind of well received. So the, again it was a nice event. We did receive some Timberwolves tickets from the Minnesota Timberwolves for signing up for a recreation program that's going to be coming up here later on in the summer time, so we gave those out to parents that were coming in, which was kind of nice to kind of give something back to the parents as well so it was an all around, a real fun event. On the back side there's just some recommendations for next year again. The rec center's an ideal place for that. We haven't put the candy, the start times on the candy hunt flyers and stuff for quite a while now, which is smart to do in case people show up late and miss their time by age group so. Registration tables, we certainly could work on a little bit to help the flow with that. We continue to hand out bags of stuff for kids who didn't have any so everybody had a bag there to collect their candy. And Nate put on a 3 year old category for the coloring contest. I've seen the 3 year old coloring contest and I don't know that that's necessary for next year but the commission certainly can discuss that at length if they'd like to. And then also we would look to again next year at securing some different entertainment for the show to try to you know kind of keep it fresh and move forward with that as well. So kind of the total take for the revenue, we did take in $849 in revenue that we hadn't collected in the past, and that did help offset our bottom line of expenses for the overall program. Certainly the money that we do take in from the sponsorship program does go to help offset any types of expenses that we do have and we do incur from the overall candy supplies and the entertainment and that sort of thing so, it's been a long standing tradition of our special events in town that people certainly do appreciate them. Scharfenberg: Any questions for Jerry? Spizale: Glenn and I were there and the people that, I thought we might get a couple complaints as far as the fee. We had one person complain, was a grandpa with one child which really surprised me, but people didn't have any problem forking over the money. They thought it was a great deal. There didn't seem to be a problem there. Kids were really into the coloring contest. I mean they were pretty proud, the ones that were handing them in to Glenn and I, they were pretty proud of their work. That was kind of a neat thing, and as Glenn and I were sitting there talking and it got less busy, we came up with an idea, and I don't know if it would work or not but we have different fees for different events in Chanhassen. Would there ever be a possibility of selling like a city pass that say costs $10 or $15 where you could get into every event? As a thought. Just some type of thing that's good for the year and you could get into the ice fishing contest. Get into the, anything that we have. Just as a thought. Something to think about, but it worked really well. It was really fun. Perfect day. Scharfenberg: Good, thank you for doing that. Spizale: Yeah, it was fun. Scharfenberg: Alright. Fourth of July. 15 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 2006 4TH OF JULY CELEBRATION REPORT. Ruegemer: It's kind of a heads up for the commission. We've been certainly, Nate and I have been talking about the 4th of July celebration for quite a while now. Kind of getting kind of the schedule of events and everything put into place. We've had a couple meetings already with the Rotary in anticipation of this year's Taste ofChanhassen parade. We met last week with Jim Olson with Carver County Sheriff Department, representing kind of the public safety aspect of that. Mike Wegler, our Street Superintendent, Nate, myself and a member of the Chan Rotary to kind of go over the parade route and alleviate any types of problem areas, and that sort of thing. Kind of get everybody kind of up to speed as far as traffic flow. Ordering signs and cones and that sort of thing. Kind of get ahead of the game here a little bit because it will be here before we know it. So we're just trying to keep in contact with them. We have another meeting scheduled for 2 to 3 weeks from now to kind of keep with the flow with our planning process. The parade and that will be the same route as last year. We're going to try to maybe re-work the staging areas a little bit to help alleviate some of the, one of the front of the parade meets the back of the parade and they haven't left the gate yet so we're trying to kind of alleviate some of the problems that occurred a little bit last year with kind of the gaps and stuff that we've had in the parade and that sort of thing so. The Rotary's been real nice to work with again this year on that. Jeff Anderson's the overall 4th of July Chair this year. He's been real nice to work with. Looking ahead to our 3rd of July, obviously the commission has recommended approval for the CBO, the Casablanca Orchestra contract and that is all secured and ready to go. Nate's been real busy talking with food vendors and other types of entertainment for that. We will be kind of working on a little bit more now in detail, kind of the overall flow and layout again of the kind of, you know whole kind of tent area. We've had some discussions on a stafflevel as to where everything's going to kind of go and we'll kind of finalize that then and work through a lot of those areas here in the near future. The fireworks contract was approved by council I believe April loth. We'll meet with Melrose again which we've used for a number of years in the past now. So Nate's kind of working on a lot of the busy details right now, kind of getting everything kind of put into place with contract with food vendors and entertainment and a lot of those types of things and kind of he's diving right in and rolling up his sleeves and we'll have another great, successful event again this year. If you look on the third page, it's kind of a list of tentative activities at this point. You know we're just really kind of thinking ahead a little bit and trying to kind of make everything a little bigger, a little better here. Just with expanded pony, the pony ring and a couple water war games and other things that will enhance the flow of the event so. We've been real busy with that and it will be another great event and certainly if there's any discussion items or suggestions that the commission would like to pass on to staff, we certainly would entertain that at this time. Kelly: How many food vendors did we have last year? Ruegemer: I'm going to say about 9 or 10. Kelly: I guess what was the reason for cutting down to 6. Ruegemer: I don't know if it' s cut down. We're in the process of securing all those. I think at the time when Nate wrote, I think we had confirmation from everybody except for one, so I think 16 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 we're up more than 6 at this point. And we're certainly working with the Rotary as well and adding some additional vendors from the community. Hoffman: Some of the Taste ofChanhassen vendors will be serving food as well. Atkins: Has the business there been, the time been increased on that a little bit? Ruegemer: I know Nate's had some conversations with the Chamber on that and you know, I'll have to, I don't know the answer to that tonight but we certainly can find that out. Hoffman: It's 3 hours longer than it used to be. Atkins: Yeah. Ruegemer: Yeah, it used to be 2. Atkins: That's a lot of stuff for people to hand out that extra hour. But there's a lot of people that are there all the time too. We run out at stuff at the Park and Rec booth. Murphy: We did run out kind of early last year. Hoffman: We're a public agency. We're a little tight. Scharfenberg: Any other questions for Jerry? Thank you Jerry. Ruegemer: Thank you. Scharfenberg: Just a note, Commissioner Kelly did show up here during the Pemtom presentation so that was, comments were by Tom. Some of those comments. COMMISSION MEMBER COMMITTEE REPORTS. None. COMMISSION MEMBER PRESENTATIONS: None. ADMINISTRATIVE PRESENTATIONS: Hoffman: Thank you Chair Scharfenberg, members of the commission. Last night the council, specifically Councilman Lundquist wanted to have a continued conversation regarding the skate park. Last Monday night, a week ago Monday at 6:00 we had a child from Chanhassen take out a knife at the skate park and threaten another child at the park. Some of the friends of the child that was threaten with the knife responded by walking over to city hall. Catching some of the deputies at shift change and the deputies responded and they did arrest the juvenile for assault with a weapon and so, that has alarmed at least one member of the council. Councilman Lundquist and he wants to continue the community conversation about what we can do to make sure that the skate park is a safe environment. As I think all of you are aware, it's very popular in our community, but we do, when you have oh, you know 300-400 kids a week attending your 17 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 skate park, you're bound to have some incidents. We've had in the past, by an large it's a nice facility. Widely attended and goes without incident. We do pick up trash on a daily basis but so, you'll probably see that written up in the paper this week. Wanted to make the commission aware before you saw that in the paper. So we'll see how the article comes out. Scharfenberg: Todd with respect to that, in terms of recommendations. I know with a juvenile it all depends on what they'll do but can we make recommendations, I know we don't have anybody there on site but you know, ban this individual from the park for a year if he is there. Hoffman: Yes. If the charges are upheld, we'll go ahead and write that individual a letter and you know restrict him from the skate park. Scharfenberg: Okay. Forever or just for a period of time? Hoffman: It could be a decision made on how the outcome of the charges come out. Scharfenberg: Okay. Alright. Were you at the meeting last night? Hoffman: Yes. Scharfenberg: Council meeting. Is the council looking to us for any recommendations or when you say continued talk with the community. I know we had last year we brought everybody in and talked about different options and the fact that we can't, is it prohibitive at this point to put somebody there to monitor and then have to pay? I mean we don't want to do that. We want the parents to take ownership to some extent to watch and. Hoffman: It will be scheduled at a council work session, and I'm not quite sure how it will, if members of the commission will be present. Members of the public because probably right now what I would think would happen is the council's going to discuss it and then seek some action and they would probably look back to the park commission again to hold another public meeting if they felt that was appropriate and then we could continue on. We've talked about, if you put an attendant there, who that has to be and it really has to be a deputy or at least a community service officer at the very least. That's expensive. If this community wants to get in the business of you know, providing police service at the skate park so you can take over for the parents role in our community, that's going to be a 60, 70, 80,000 dollar issue on an annual basis. It's pretty expensive for a public park service so. I'm not quite sure where it's headed as of yet but. Scharfenberg: Other than this one incident, and I'm not going to say it's isolated but since the park's been re-opened this year, how are the other issues of trash and those, is that continuing to be an issue and language and that? Hoffman: It seems to be a little bit better. Trash seems to be better. Sergeant Olson and I had a conversation about language. We're not quite sure, other than the fact that somebody assaults you with language, that you can really do anything about swearing in a public park. You know if a kid flips his board and he swears, it's really not an offense. It's a freedom of speech and if he 18 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 turns to somebody else and verbally assaults them, then that's an offense that they can be charged with so. Scharfenberg: Does anybody else have any other questions? Atkins: How is it working out with the bikes in there? Hoffman: No issues. Really not been a whole lot of use with the bikes. So no conflicts as yet. I've seen just a handful of bikes over there since the spring we opened it up and allowing bikes. Murphy: Just to refresh my memory. I apologize, how long did we close the park, the skate park last year when it was closed? Hoffman: Two times last year. Once for about 2 weeks and once about a week. Daniel: What type of impact did it have? I mean what response did you get from either the parents or the skaters themselves. Hoffman: You know it's hard to gauge, but I think if you study human behavior, if you have people that are likely to behave in a manner that is not appropriate and they're likely to do that, whether you close the skate park down or whether you keep it open so, those kids who are you know likely to go ahead and behave in that manner, if the park was closed for 2 weeks and they're going to show up and they're going to say oh, now I'm going to stop because they're going to close the park again? I'm not quite sure that that's the effect that we're having. It certainly raises the level of awareness of the issue in the community because it gets written up in the paper. The park is closed and so you know we're hoping that there's some positive effect but it's impossible to measure really. Scharfenberg: Jeff the response last year when we had this issue was that we had quite a few people that came that night and spoke positively of the skate park and the benefits that it provides the community and as you could imagine, it's you know, 2% that ruin it for the rest of the other 98% and so it's kind of trying to deal with that 2%, and that's kind of what we're struggling with. Because it's a great opportunity for kids and a great park but we can't let you know, we can't have threats or intimidation or you know people writing in graffiti and stuff like that. That just can't go on either so we struggle with what do you do when that's been our discussion over the last year. Kelly: To be honest the kids, they... ask for a better outcome if someone had a knife come over and getting the deputy. Getting it resolved just like that so I think the kids that were there did the right thing. Daniel: Yeah, I mean that's kind of a testament to solving really what is a terrible situation. That's the absolute correct way. You couldn't have done it any better if you said it. So I mean if there's any type of hope for correction to address the problem, I think that in itself by definition seems to solve it. Have there been any other studies for deterrents are? Have we, has the commission at all done any type of investigations of other monitoring alternatives? 19 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 Hoffman: We've talked about a camera. We've talked about parent associations and have talked about staffing it. Spizale: I think for as many kids use that park, we don't really have that many incidents. I mean there's kids there right now. They use it all the time so really we don't seem to have that much of a problem. When we do, it does get publicized. Hoffman: Well your user numbers are very large. And business or any attraction when you have large numbers, you have some incidents. Daniel: How does that compare to Lake Ann? Hoffman: Well we had, I think if you recall the deputy that testified that night said there's probably more incidents of record, more calls for service to Lake Ann than the skate park. Daniel: Okay. Hoffman: You have more robberies at Lake Ann. More incidents and Sergeant Olson last night, he brought up a good point. If you're the parent of a 10 year old child and you drop them off and expect them to be unsupervised at the skate park? You know would you drop him off at Lake Ann or Lake Susan and expect them to be unsupervised at those two parks. So there's really some need for, and it's not always the kids that are in control out there. There are some parents that do allow their child to go to the skate park, 4-5 hours a night. 4-5 nights a week and that's perfectly fine with the parent, and as a commission or as a community, you're in a tough spot. What can you do about that? Scharfenberg: Any other, with respect to the administrative packet, anything else that needs to be discussed? Hoffman: Just, especially for Jeff. You'll see the first item is a similar development review from what we had this evening. It's talking about Epic Development, but if there's, if the issues are generally administrative in nature, we're not seeking any land acquisition. We're not seeking any trail development, I will present those administratively. This site is the north half of the old driving range out on the intersection of Galpin and Highway 5. We have a park in the area. Sugarbush Park and so I write those reports up administratively and then provide you with a copy. And then you're certainly always willing to comment or e-mail or talk to one of your commission chairs, because typically when these go out, it's at the preliminary approval and if there needs to be adjustments or if you in fact would want to ever see one of these, we can come down inbetween preliminary subdivision and final plat. If you're interested in portable toilet costs and numbers, they're all there. Spizale: Who knew? Hoffman: Who knew we paid $22,000 for portable toilets, and we get more requests every year. 20 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 Kelly: Actually I got a request from someone to see if they could be out there in the colder months. I have a question on the administrative packet, and maybe it's been gone. I know. .. an update on the poured in place at Lake Susan. Hoffman: The contract was awarded approximately 2 weeks ago. It needs to be done by May 23rd. So we received two bids. They were within $900 of each other and they were about $8,000 under budget. Earl F. Anderson will be the prime contractor on it and then they subcontract for the poured in place material to be installed. Some sod has been put down. The fence is still up and that will be up through the poured in place and then we'll open it up, and I think we'll meet there as Glenn was talking just before your next meeting in May for a picnic supper and discussion about how that project went and what else is, there's other plans for Lake Susan. We have expansion of the parking lots and new trail along it so we'll talk about those and then possibly we'll be watching dozens of children playing on that new playground because we get a call or two every week. Scharfenberg: Have they started the parking lot yet? Hoffman: Just a preliminary grading. We need to move the sand volleyball court. We need to move some lights so we're in the planning process. Atkins: Is the Lake Ann parking lot being done this summer? Hoffman: This summer after Labor Day. $395,000. The bids came in last, they came in last week and GMH Asphalt out of Chaska will be the contractor and will not only be reclaiming a majority of the beach lot, but then also overlaying the lots that go down to the boat access so, it's a long, overdue, overhaul of Lake Ann road. It will really dress up the community's premiere parks so we're looking forward to that. Daniel: Is there going to be changes done on the west side of the access point? Is that still gravel, if I remember correctly? Hoffman: West side? Daniel: Of Lake Ann. It comes straight down. Hoffman: To the beach? Daniel: To the beach. Hoffman: Yep, that will stay gravel. Just a gravel path. Spizale: Say Todd, as I was looking at this, it kind of made we think of Prince's property. Is there any word on what's going on with that? Hoffman: None. 21 Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006 Spizale: Because I know at some time in the future we had talked one time about doing a trail around the lake. Hoffman: It's in the comprehensive plan and we've got properties that are subdivided and wait for the opportunity to take ownership of the lakeshore and build that trail. Not even CJ knows that. Murphy: Todd, one more question off the topic but are there some changes coming to the City Council? The make up of City Council. Isn't Councilman Lundquist? Hoffman: Councilman Lundquist will be running county commissioner. Daniel: That's public knowledge now. Hoffman: It was written up in the paper. Murphy: Okay. Hoffman: And then I believe Steve Labatt's term is up and will not be running and the Mayor will be re-running for re-election. I don't know ifhe's publicly announced that or not, but I believe it. Ruegemer: You heard it here. Hoffman: Don't say anything. Scharfenberg: Call CJ right now. Do I have a motion to adjourn? Atkins moved, Kelly seconded to adjourn the meeting. All voted in favor and the motion carried. The Park and Recreation Commission meeting was adjourned. Submitted by Todd Hoffman Park and Rec Director Prepared by Nann Opheim 22