PRC Minutes 4-25-06
Oio - J'-/--
Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006
Daniel: I definitely will, thank you very much.
Scharfenberg: Alright.
Daniel: So appreciate and looking forward to it.
. Scharfenberg: Good. And Anne, good to see you back.
Murphy: Thank you. Glad to be back.
Hoffman: Two terms. So there are term limits now on our commission so you can serve up to 2
terms and then you're out so make the best of it.
REVIEW PARK & TRAIL REQUIREMENTS FOR THE PRESERVE. 1630 LYMAN
BOULEVARD. A 155 SINGLE FAMILY SUBDIVISION. APPLICANT THE PEMTOM
LAND COMPANY AND GAYLE AND LOIS DEGLER.
Hoffman: Thank you Chair Scharfenberg and members of the commission. Apologize the
overhead went out last night so we'll use a handout that you have in the packet and then both the
applicants and myself will step forward and utilize the board to run you through the
development. The property or the application called the Preserve is located in the 2005 MUSA
area. I think all of you are probably familiar with this area. If not, labeled as the 2005 MUSA,
maybe the AUAR study area. Maybe the farm field south of Lyman Boulevard. Maybe the
Degler Farm. All the things would be accurate. This is actually the Gayle and Lois Farm.
Family farm. Gayle's father and mother owned the farm to the west which would be Dean and
Lois Degler. This is the fourth development that's been proposed in this particular area. On the
front page of the report it talks about the summary of the request. The request being a PUD or a
planned unit development and site plan approval to build 155 single family homes. With a
conditional use permit for developing within the Bluff Creek Overlay District, as well as grading
within the flood plain. The next graphic shows part of the AUAR study indicating that the
number of units approved under the AUAR, or the AUAR assumption is 1,584 homes were
contemplated or approved that area. If you flip to page 2, the next chart indicates the 4 different
proposals that we're working with. I'll point them out on the overhead. Top one, Liberty at
Bluff Creek is the only one with final approval. It's currently under construction. The grading
has commenced if you've noticed to the south on Audubon Road. And has 90 gross acres and
then 444 units townhome units in that particular area. As to neighborhood amenities, association
playground and then an association pool. Some green space that has been preserved as a part of
the Bluff Creek Overlay District. Has a trail connection down to the Bluff Creek trail on the
north side, and then it also has some internal trails to loop around to the neighborhood amenities.
Liberty at Creekside and it was reviewed by the council and tabled last night but it is generally
located in a little bit of an isolated location at the center or south central part of the MUSA
region. 146 units. Pioneer Pass, last night was approved by the council first go around and not
final plat. It has 81 single family homes. It also has the park that you took at look at and
approved, or recommended as a public park. 4.72 acres in this location. The Liberty at
Creekside is also proposing about a half acre totlot area at that location. And then the application
we're looking at tonight, again gross acres, 80 acres. Net acres 31.33 and 155 units. Generally
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Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006
situated north and south on an 80 acre parcel. On this map what you're seeing is again a private
association area. Staff is also proposing that these 5 lots be deleted from the plat and that area be
used for a combination of uses. Storm water pond, a trail head, a view shed into the area. The
applicant will talk about what they feel is that would create a hardship on their development, or
their subdivision application this evening so they'll discuss that and discuss that issue with you.
And then the trail is really the premiere aspect of the entire Bluff Creek area, and this particular
application includes a.. . section of the trail. Bridge. It will have an overpass. Over the top of the
creek. And then as you move north, there will eventually be an underpass under Lyman
Boulevard at this location and when Lyman Boulevard is upgraded. Some questions on the
layout.
Scharfenberg: No park proposed in the Preserve area, correct?
Hoffman: In here? Yes. An association amenity right here.
Scharfenberg: Right.
Hoffman: And then this would be, as staff had proposed it a trail head for people to park and
have access to the Bluff Creek trail system. And then some ponding and just kind of a view shed
as you come down Audubon to look into the Bluff Creek area. But not a public park. The
comprehensive plan talks about parks and open space. I'm not going to go through all the, this is
pulled directly out of the comp plan. Parks are a good thing. Open space is a good thing. Parks
and open space acquisition and regulation. We obtain land for parks through a couple of
different methods. Acquisition and regulation. Acquisition refers to obtaining land through
easements, condemnation, donation or purchase. And then we also obtain land through zoning
or the subdivision ordinance where we can take approximately up to 10% of the land. It varies
depending on the density of the development, and our ordinance says 1 acre per every 75 people.
So that's what we based our park acquisition plans off of. The proposed park and open space
acquisition in 2005, I've gone over them on the board. But they're also on a chart on page 3, and
you look in public park, we talk about the 4.72 acres at Pioneer Pass. The Preserve with the 5
lots would be 2 acres plus or minus. The total of 6.72 in public park. Private park would be over
2 acres. They've added a couple of lots here and so it would be 2 ~, maybe 3 acres in the private
association type park. But then the thing that you really need to take notice of is the wetland
open space. You have 115 acres. It's a total of 35% of the site and that is all the green and you
have this map in the back of your packet, if you want to look at it at your desk. So it's the Bluff
Creek Overlay which really was designed to save those natural features within the corridor.
Granted it's not an active park. We talk about in the report there's a high school is that is
proposed north of here. Will be voted on most likely in November, so there's access via the trail
system and the underpass at Lyman for future, let's say you're going to move in and you're
looking for a tennis court or you're looking for a very large athletic field to practice some
baseball or football with your children over the weekend. You can have direct access from these
neighborhoods by bike or by walking to that future high school if it's something that is approved.
So there are a lot of features here. There is some may say a lack of real distinct neighborhood
parks, with the exception of the one to the south. And land cost has something to do with that.
The amount of open space in the Bluff Creek area has something to do with that. You just can't
continue to consume land for parks and open space. You need to leave some of it for
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development as well. So those are the park and open. Let's talk specifically about the Preserve.
We've been working with the applicant for a number of months and Outlot A, Outlot Land
Outlot N are proposed to be preserved in public ownership. Again that's for the Bluff Creek
Overlay. A total of 34 acres on this property. We were talking before the meeting that you pay
for that land but then you need to, you know you're not using it except for open space
designation and then it just about doubles the price of the remaining land that is potentially used
for development. Outlot H, as I noted was currently shown as a single lot. The applicant has
agreed to combine that with Lots 1 and 2, Block 11 into recreational space to enhance the value
to the neighborhood. So as you drive through the neighborhood, to and from your home, you
have a nice, commons area in the center where you could, they're proposing a playground there
so for 15-20 minutes or half hour in the evening or on the weekend you can meet some of your
neighbors there with young children. Talk about what's going on in the community. Become a
neighborhood and let your kids play in the playground. And then you also have some space if
you wanted to play some pick up catch games or something like that. There's enough space in
there for those type of uses. And the applicant has expressed a willingness to accept that
recommendation. Some places like on this map it's shown in all the pink. Other places it's
shown as a single lot with still the two residential lots on it so don't be confused by that. Staff is
also recommending again that Lots 1 through 5, Block 1 be eliminated from the plat. It's that
property situated adjacent to Lyman, so you've got a sanitary sewer lift station across the road.
A future industrial park development connected to it. It's physically isolated which some say is
good. Some say would not be good for a residential neighborhood, but again staff, and that
includes Community Development Director Kate Aanenson and our City Engineer, Paul Oehme
and myself, we're recommending that those be acquired as public open space and again for a
variety of uses. We don't underestimate view corridors in the community. Highway 5 has been
very successful in preserving view corridors into open space. That's one of the values that our
community holds is as you drive around, you can see into these places. They're not, the views
are not blocked. That's one of the reasons we acquired the lot just to the north of that little lift
station. That's a 4 acre parcel that was purchased in a past open space referendum to allow that
view to the north, that goes up to the new high school. As a ponding location for future road
improvements, you're probably all familiar with the south half of Audubon is not upgraded as of
yet. The last time the north half was upgraded, council said you know it's still a rural road and it
still needs to be upgraded now some 15 years later, and there'll need to be additional ponding to
take the water off of that road from the curb and gutter down into a ponding area so this could be
one location for that ponding. And then also for a trail head, the Bluff Creek corridor, 4 mile
trail. 4 plus miles of trail throughout there going north and south, will be a regional and more a
local draw so people living off the corridor could drive to this location. Park at a trail head.
Look at a map kiosk and decide if they want to go north or south, and then take off on a bike trip,
either to Chaska to the south LRT or they could go north to Minnewashta Regional Park so they
would have a trail head in the center. Talking about trails, or continuing that conversation. What
we ask is that the applicant work on the design, engineering, the construction of the trail as a part
of their development. It makes it a more fluid process, and then we as a city and as a community
pay for the construction costs and materials, and they will absorb the cost for engineering,
construction as a part of their proposal. This practice has been done up and down the Bluff
Creek corridor and other areas throughout the city, and has worked really well for the
community. And then the applicant is also responsible to build a connector trails. Obviously
when you have this beautiful resource right next to your neighborhood, you want to connect
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people to it and so they're currently showing two connectors, and we just missed a third. The
third is really north... We have one on the north coming through this area. One to the center.
We're actually showing two on here. I think it's the one at this location because of some grade
concerns in the center one. But then we need to go with this third one coming down here so it
can connect out to the street, actually the end of this street and then a connection up to the north.
To get people from the neighborhood down into the Bluff Creek trail corridor. So the
recommendations that we are giving the commission to consider, and to form some sort of a
recommendation to City Council are, one. The payment of full park dedication fees at a rate in
force at the time of the final plat. And then a note to that, that a percentage of those fees may be
dedicated, granted back to the applicant in the event that we do acquire the five lots on the north
side of the development. The northwest side of the development. Two, that the applicant shall
provide all design, engineering, construction and testing services required in the Bluff Creek
trail. All construction documents shall be delivered to the park director and the city engineer for
approval prior to the initiation of each phase of the construction. It may be built in a single
phase. It may be built in multiple phases. The trail shall be 10 feet wide, surfaced with
bituminous material and constructed to meet all city specifications. The applicant shall be
reimbursed for the actual cost of the construction materials for Bluff Creek, and that includes the
bridge and the other elements that go along with that bridge. And then this reimbursement
payment shall be made upon completion and acceptance of the trail and receipt of an invoice
from the applicant documenting those costs. Three, that Outlot H be enlarged by the two lots.
Two additional lots. Lots 1 and Lot 2, Block 11. And that the resulting property be utilized as a
private association operated open space and recreational sites. And then finally that Outlots A,
B, Land H, the Bluff Creek open space area be conveyed to the city as public property by
warranty deed. And I'll be happy to answer any questions that you have for staff. And then
would ask that the commission give the applicants a chance to speak as well.
Scharfenberg: Okay. Jack, any questions for Todd?
Spizale: I've got one. Why are some of these marked public streets and private streets?
Brian Sullivan: Hi, I'm Brian Sullivan with Ryland Homes. The development, you almost have
to kind of back up quite a ways to kind of get to the answer of that but as we were working
through the site planning and looking at the Degler property, and looking at different ways of
developing it. We looked at coming in here with townhouse type development and we looked at
traditional single family type of development, and as we're studying the marketplace and trying
to determine what was the best fit for this piece of property, and looking at the Bluff Creek
Overlay zone and the wetlands that are on the property and all, kind of all these issues kind of
combined together. We came up with this concept that we've been working on in some of other
communities which is a little bit smaller, little bit smaller lot that still has all the amenities that
people are looking for so we had this whole issue with the public right now, they still want 3 car
garage but they don't necessarily want a large yard with it and as we worked in other
communities, you start to look at what a 3 car garage does and what does the streetscape as
you're driving through a community and what you'll see is all garages, a lot of garage doors and
not much front of the house here so what we worked, and been working on is this concept of a
cannon stalled garage so we have a 3 car garage but one of the garage stalls is actually behind
one of the other cars so throughout most the development here you'll see only 2 garage doors
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instead of 3 garage doors. So that was one of the kind of concepts that we're working on here.
And then we're also playing with this idea of clustering the development and clustering has to do
with this whole idea of trying to pull things away from the creek as much as possible. And one
of the ways to help minimize the size of the development and minimize the amount of impacts
under the creek as to cluster the homes, which is a little bit smaller lots that we're proposing, and
also look at what we can do in the right-of-way and so working with the city staff we determined
where the public streets need to be and the right-of-way width that would have all the kind of
traditional sidewalks and traditional setbacks from the street that the city wants and something
that the city can maintain. Snowplows can go through easily and all that kind of stuff so, there's
some public streets throughout the development there that are labeled as public. But then as
we're working through parts of the, we developed these kind of loops off the public street that
are private streets. They're still the same width as the public street. They're the same width that
they're asking for that meets the city standards for width of the street, but we have narrowed that
right-of-way width down. Instead of being I think it's 60 feet, it's actually 42 or 41 feet, so those
streets are a private street. They're still within the, and it's a private easement that goes over the
top of it as a private right-of-way but, and they're maintained by the Homeowners Association
but the streets private streets instead of public streets and they're maintained by the homeowners
association. So kind of a long winded answer as to how we got there but it has to do with trying
to pull back from the Bluff Creek overlay zone as much as possible. And trying to address some
of the needs of the buying public and trying to provide a nice nitch within the larger
neighborhoods here as to house style that's, that provides something a little bit different than
what the larger lots on the Sever Peterson property and the stuff that Town and Country's doing,
the multi family stuff there so. That's how we kind of got to this.
Spizale: So the public streets are going to have sidewalks?
Brian Sullivan: Yes. All the streets have sidewalks. Have sidewalks along side.
Spizale: The private ones too?
Brian Sullivan: Yes.
Spizale: Okay.
Brian Sullivan: And that was part of...too is to make sure it's a very walkable neighborhood and
the sidewalks all connect to the trails, the private trails that lead down to the Bluff Creek trail and
all that so.
Murphy: Sorry to interrupt. Did you say sidewalks on one side or both sides?
Brian Sullivan: I think they're on one side, yeah. The main public street might have sidewalks
on both sides but.
Hoffman: It does.
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Brian Sullivan: Yeah. There's some recommendations by city staffto, some of the streets with
sidewalks on both sides. They said remove some of these and to be honest with you I'm not
sure why that's being done but they had some engineering reasons for that. To remove some of
them.
Hoffman: Planning staff is recommending sidewalks on one side of the public streets. Or
private, excuse me.
Scharfenberg: Jack, any other questions?
Spizale: No.
Scharfenberg: Jeff.
Daniel: Todd, I do have one question. The trail coming down from, that's on Audubon right
now. That stops off at I think Valley Creek North or South. Right at that point. Is that going to
be extended all the way down to?
Hoffman: It will. When Audubon is upgraded.
Daniel: Okay. So it is going to be. Alright. And with regards to some of the changes that we're
recommending as far as with the, the lots that are off The Preserve right here. I'mjust kind of
thinking things out as far as how that might have an impact on it obviously and so, I think that's
about it. All I have.
Scharfenberg: Anne.
Murphy: Just a question on the trail connections and the trail heads. Are those the responsibility
of the city or the?
Hoffman: The trail head would be built by the city. The trail connectors, which are private
coming out of the development, are the responsibility of the applicant. And then the public trail,
which is down in the creek corridor, will be built by the applicant but we will reimburse them for
the material cost.
Murphy: So that's included, the trail connector's included in this recommendation? Ijust didn't
see trail connector anywhere so.
Hoffman: Yeah, they can use those as trail connectors.
Murphy: Okay.
Scharfenberg: Paula.
Atkins: Todd, can you show me on that map where the high school would be built? The
general.
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Scharfenberg: Way up in that left hand comer.
Atkins: That's what I thought.
Hoffman: Starting at this comer and, and the first debate will be whether or not this intersection
will turn into a full intersection or not. Or take people straight into the high school site right
here.
Daniel: Todd, where's the entrance going to be? At least theoretically. Is it going to be at the T
of Lyman there or is it going to be kind of where that barn is right now?
Hoffman: Yeah, maybe one here. There might be one up farther. .. It would have two access
points at a minimum onto Lyman.
Scharfenberg: Tom, any questions?
Kelly: So it's the city's responsibility for all plowing?
Hoffman: The creek, comprehensive trail in the creek is the other one would not be. There'd be
plows as part of the private, and then the neighborhood, the private drives. Trails.
Scharfenberg: And would the applicant, do they have any? Go ahead.
Dan Cook: I've had a cold for the last couple of weeks so I'll keep this relatively brief. My
name is Dan Cook with Pemtom and I think Chanhassen has a great deal to be proud of with the
parks and foresight of this beautiful Bluff Creek Overlay District. Todd and I talked today and I
think we both agreed that this is going to be a spectacular amenity to the community. And both
Pemtom and Ryland are very proud to be associated with this project and bring this vision to a
reality. One thing that, and I'll keep this relatively short and then if you have any design
questions or things like that, I can. . . but we really had a challenge, and Todd brought this up
briefly and essentially the level of cost increased in assessments to this Preserve project since
November, 2005, which is about 6 months has gone up dramatically. And the projected
assessments of record for the new 212 and MUSA assessment increased from $1,486,879 to
$1,782,054 just over that period of time so that totals almost $295,175, which is a pretty big
upcharge. Along with that the storm water management ponding fees increased from $158,098
to $242,760, so that went up about $84,662, which again was a pretty big increase. And then
along with that, the park dedication fees increased from $4,500 to $5,800 per lot, totally
$899,000, and that's paid at the recording of the final plat. So that increase was again another
$211,500. So with these three, just these three line items, and hopefully you know who knows
what the future brings but you never know, that increased the project in those 6 months over
$581,340, which brings an increase of about 40%. And you know we really feel that the project
is going to be really compromised by losing you know 5 lots, valuable lots. They're narrow
walkout, south exposure lots off of Lyman, and we talked about that a little bit today. But I
guess what we'd like to pledge is we really worked hard with the city and we really want to
thank the staff for all the progress that we've made on this project, and we realize, as everyone
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does, this has really been a moving target for everybody. Todd and I talked about this today and
we'd like to solve you know these economic issues together and what we're faced regarding this
project. I don't know if...we talked today and Todd's communication with the rest of the staff
regarding this. That's not a surprise to anybody.
Scharfenberg: Tom, any questions for Dan?
Kelly: Not right now, no.
Scharfenberg: Okay, Paula.
Atkins: The lots in question are the ones right against Lyman? On both sides of that street or
just one side?
Dan Cook: Those are these 5 lots that.
Daniel: In the yellow up there, in the comer. You'll see them.
Hoffman: Just on one side. The east side of that.
Dan Cook: Eventually we kind ofreconfigured those lots several times with some of the staff's
input on it to just make it better... This is guided industrial right now but they are looking at the
possibility for residential. Now whether or not that comes to pass, we don't know but we also,
regardless of what happens we feel that this access is going to be valuable to some degree to the
people.. . regardless of what happens to this. Ideally from our standpoint, just because of the
topography of the land, we feel it would be an asset I think to possibly blend some residential
here and some industrial, but I think a lot of those decisions are going to be dependent upon what
happens to the Dorsey and Fox piece because they're still kind of going through the process.
Kelly: If you could come back to me.
Scharfenberg: Yeah.
Kelly: I apologize. So your proposal is not to have that connector right there?
Dan Cook: Yeah, we want this here. I mean we are asking for this, along with there's 5 lots
right in here as well.
Hoffman: If the lots stay, the trail would just go around them.
Dan Cook: And we talked about that. I mean maybe there's a way that you know smaller they
can compromise but I guess we're just kind of in the process of trying to get that to all work for
everybody.
Scharfenberg: Dan why, you said that the project would be compromised without those 5 lots.
Why would it be compromised?
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Dan Cook: Just because of the economics of it. I mean right now we absorb it. Ryland Homes
would absorb a portion of it. The City would absorb a portion of it. The bottom line is,
ultimately it gets down to the consumer. The end user and I think that that's one thing that I
think we all have to kind of look out for. By losing those lots we have an attached value on
those. ..based on the other costs that we've already kind of incurred in a short period. And again,
I don't think it was anybody's fault. It was just something that happened. It really is...
Daniel: Dan is the, from what I understand of the development, is the average price of the home,
I guess cumulative around $400,000? $425?
Dan Cook: Yeah, I think it's going to depend upon what the people put into it. They're going to
be walkout. A lot of them are going to be walkouts. I think some of the ones that are on the
bluff, you can finish those lower levels. I think those are going to be, you know those can...
The nice thing about this project thought is even though it has a 2 car garage that faces the street,
it's a tandem so there's an extra garage so even people with snowmobiles or storage or whatever,
they've got the ability to do that. So it's kind, it is. It's a unique product right now. ...anyone
other than...is doing a project similar to this down in Savage.. .So this is something that is, you
know I think with the baby boomers, some of them having a home here maybe. They want to get
rid of their bigger houses. Maybe have something smaller. They don't want to live in attached
type housing. They want detached housing. I think that fits that market real well. And then first
time home buyers, I think empty nesters to some degree. People are looking for more of a low
maintenance lifestyle. People that you know.. .
Daniel: As I look at the 5 lots here in comparison to some of the other sizes, of lots, and based
off their isolation and the view that they have, I assume they're going to be exponentially that
much more expensive, as well, not only the lot but also the home that's on there?
Dan Cook: Yeah. You know that's hard to say. Like I say, this has been reconfigured
now.. .reconfigured lots but there's still 5 lots there. You know one negative thing is there's a
lift station there, as Todd pointed that out, and we kind of go back and forth. If I were to buy a
place here, I'd really kind of like this because I like privacy and just having a few homes there. I
suppose if you had children who wanted to play with other kids and things, you'd maybe want...
I think there's a strong market for that just because they're south facing and they're walkout lots
so...
Scharfenberg: Anne, you have any questions?
Murphy: For those 5 lots, you're saying that you need the land? It's not an issue where you
talked about any park dedication fees for those lots or, in lieu of the land itself.
Dan Cook: Well I think that this conversation really has to be kind of continued with staff and
you know hopefully come to some kind of.. .and we talked about yesterday and I talked about
with Kate... Hopefully we'll get it solved right. ..part of the project economically and it's really
been like a moving target for the city as well as us to try to make everything...
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Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006
Daniel: Actually, I mean based off of what's gone on, and I'm strictly making assumptions and
mind thought process. Looking at the 5 lots and in comparison to what probably would be going
in there as far as the hallmark, again what you guys make because I think that will be about a
year from now. Housing prices will go up accordingly. If I do the math, that's let's say if
they're half a million dollars, even $600,000 homes, it's about $3 million dollars impact to the
overall cost of the project. Would that be a good statement, as far as just revenue? Not
necessarily in income but.
Dan Cook: Well I think yeah. ..but if we, depending on what happens with those lots, that would
be maybe the retail type of a thing. I guess what we'd like to do is end up with some kind of a
compromise and just look at it as a reality. What are we really losing and what's the city going
to gain there? The other thing that's notable I guess is that this project's going to be phased in
three phases, and anticipate that somewhere in this area will be the first phase. Second phase and
then this will be the following phase, and our park dedication fees are all paid up front so those
will be paid in June or July... So that's $900,000 in park dedication fees that we're paying...
that we theoretically won't be using for 3 years because I think Brian's staff has kind of looked
at their absorption rate and how long it's going to take to work through this project in scope. I
guess to answer you question, the.. .sit down and work with staff and get Ryland and
everybody's input...
Daniel: My only concern would be on this particular project, if there were single homes there,
kind of similar to what I see on Kerber Boulevard and Lake Lucy Road.
Dan Cook: They'd be the same as these homes that you see here...
Daniel: Sure, but you know basically when you have a stand alone development, and this is
really what it's going to be when you're separated from the main community like that, and
there's one house that McDonald Construction has and it's been for sale for almost a year and a
half now, so if you're, I see two things that are very similar in that situation. Number one, you're
on a main thorough way. Lyman's very much similar to how, as far as access to the city as
Powers is, with a 50 miles an hour zone. Number two is that you are leading up to a potentially,
and I don't know Todd, is there going to be another access point off of?
Hoffman: Audubon.
Daniel: Audubon. So there'll be two access points. So basically, you know as far as
commercial traffic going through there, depending upon what type of industry goes in, so those
would be my two concerns. Why, from your perspective I guess I'd take a look at what's, what
other developments around the city there and where they're having problems moving product
based off it kind of being isolated because that McDonald Construction project, and I might be
wrong but if you noticed, it's not moving, and that's because of the traffic. And it might have to
do with the design of the home. The lay of the lots. I'm sure there's other factors.
Dan Cook: You know it's kind of a..that's a question that personally I wouldn't have a problem
with it just because I like the privacy and I think just the venue of these lots, and I don't know
the McDonald lots that you're talking about but these are going to be spectacular...
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Daniel: Sure. Yeah, McDonald's stare at Powers or a back yard.
Dan Cook: ...it's not bad so.
Scharfenberg: Jack, any questions?
Spizale: No questions.
Kelly: Could I ask one more about the... If you did have the lots, the trail would just come right
through? Right through that area but because of the lots you're kind of forcing the trail to kind
of run parallel with the lots around, and taking a cut, is that the issue in terms of how these 5 lots
and the trail?
Hoffman: Yeah, the trail would look different under each scenario. The function would be the
same. Depending on how, if you take 5 lots out and you build a trail head and a pond, it depends
on where the appropriate location for the pond. Appropriate location for the trail head and then
how the trail would wind through there. Just to give you a little bit more information on this
touch down point. What's likely to happen is that the trail will cross. This is shown on this red
line on that map. On the underpass. Then it will go across street grade, and then like it's shown
on here, it can actually come in front and go through the lot. It could go down to the creek and
around. That will be a street crossing right here at this location so. The final design...
Kelly: You want to get something to link up with the trail that dead ends right at.
Hoffman: Audubon.
Kelly: Which is a great trail. You take that's one of the nicer trails in the city. I think.
Daniel: Dan in terms of the amenities, the open space that you've got, is it just the totIot? Is
there going to be a pool included in there?
Brian Sullivan: The private park area would just have a totlot for now. There's a gazebo being
proposed there also. And we've left the rest of the area open for active play. Pick up games or
tossing the ball around, that type of thing is what's being proposed there now.
Daniel: So there is some open space in addition to the totIot?
Brian Sullivan: Yes there is.
Daniel: Okay.
Scharfenberg: Any other questions? Any discussion? We have a motion to accept staff's
recommendation with respect to.
Brian Sullivan: Can I interrupt?
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Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006
Scharfenberg: Yeah, go ahead.
Brian Sullivan: Just one question about park dedication fees. Whether that could be, whether it
could be paid for when we pull building permits instead of at the, when we submit the final plat.
I don't know if that's a policy issue or not. Changing the recommendations that I'd like to
request, or to consider anyway.
Hoffman: The ordinance requires it at time of final plat. In the past the City has, the ordinance
had allowed payment of one-third at time of plat and then two-third, the remaining two-third at
the time of building permit. But it was an administrative nightmare. It has not, did not follow
that practice for a half a dozen years now and it continues to be an administrative nightmare as
we get rid of those lots that we are still collecting two-thirds of park dedication fees, which
change on an annual basis and so right now we have about 85 different rates for park fees that
we're trying to weed out and get rid of so the answer is, from staff's perspective is no, I don't
think the council would approve that. It's our current ordinance that it's collected at the time of
final plat.
Scharfenberg: Does that answer your question?
Brian Sullivan: Not the right way.
Scharfenberg: Alright. Do I have a motion with respect to staff's recommendation for the
Preserve PUD?
Hoffman: Back to the fees, the one bonus is then they don't pay the increases for the next 2
years so that's the off setting.
Scharfenberg: We need a motion.
Murphy: Motion to approve staff's recommendation for the Preserve PUD.
Scharfenberg: Do I have a second?
Atkins: I'll second.
Scharfenberg: Any further discussion?
Murphy moved, Atkins seconded that the Park and Recreation Commission recommend
the City Council require the following conditions of approval concerning parks and trails
for the Preserve PUD:
1. The payment of full park dedication fees at the rate in force upon final plat approval in
lieu of parkland dedication. Note: A percentage of park fees may be credited as a
portion of any future compensation for the acquisition of developable lands in the area
currently depicted as Lot 1.
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Park and Recreation Commission - April 25, 2006
2. The applicant shall provide all design, engineering, construction and testing services
required of the "Bluff Creek Trail". All construction documents shall be delivered to the
Park and Recreation Director and City Engineer for approval prior to the initiation of
each phase of construction. The trail shall be 10 feet in width, surfaced with bituminous
material and constructed to meet all city specifications. The applicant shall be
reimbursed for the actual cost of construction materials for the Bluff Creek Trail. This
reimbursement payment shall be made upon completion and acceptance of the trail and
receipt of an invoice documenting the actual costs for the construction materials utilized
in it's construction.
3. Outlot H be enlarged through the addition of the land area currently depicted as Lots 1
and 2, Block 11. The resulting property to be utilized as a private association operated
recreational and open space site.
4. Outlots A, B, Land H be conveyed to the city as public property by warranty deed.
All voted in favor and the motion carried unanimously with a vote of 6 to O.
Scharfenberg: Thank you for, Pemtom for coming and addressing our questions and hopefully
you will continue to work with staff and iron out all those issues.
Dan Cook; Thank you very much.
Scharfenberg: You bet.
RECREATION PROGRAM REPORTS:
2006 EASTER EGG CANDY HUNT.
Ruegemer: Thank you Steve. Rest of the commission, good evening. Just wanted to go through
kind of an evaluation of the Easter Egg Candy Hunt that happened on Saturday, April 15th out at
the Recreation Center. This was the first year that we did have an admission fee for that of
$3.00. Our total kids registered was 283. 177 pre-registered and 106 the day of registrations for
a total of 283, which is down roughly oh about 115-120 roughly. We didn't really have any hard
numbers from the past but those were just kind of estimates for that so they were down I think a
little bit. And was that associated with the fee? Was it a nice weekend and people did other
things? It's kind of the question of the day. It was a beautiful day out. Held the candy hunt
outside after the performance by the Splatter Sisters and everybody certainly walked away with a
bag full of candy, which was fun to see the kids having fun out there. The festivities you know
take place within the recreation center, as far as the coloring contest. The performance by the
Splatter Sisters itself was in the gym, so the rec center really does provide really an ideal venue
for that. Has a lot of activity in room out there. It's nice having the amenities outside to host the
candy hunt, which was a fun event. The Key Club members again did help out with setting up
and assisting with the coloring contest area. They dressed up in bunny costumes, which is good
so then I didn't have to do that so, which was nice to see those young legs hopping around. The
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